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Amanpour
Interview with London Mayor and Labour Party Politician Sadiq Khan; Interview with Former British Conservative MP and Former British Secretary of State for Justice David Gauke; Interview with National Rally Party Former Leader Marine Le Pen; Interview with The New York Times London Bureau Chief Mark Landler; Interview with Bloomberg Senior Executive Editor for Economics Stephanie Flanders. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 05, 2024 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I have just returned from Buckingham Palace where I accepted an invitation from his majesty the king to form the
next government of this great nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A shift back to the center left in the U.K. as Keir Starmer's Labour Party wins a historic landslide. I get reaction from London Mayor
Sadiq Khan and former Tory MP David Gauke.
Then, moving in the opposite direction, France lurches far-right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARINE LE PEN, FORMER LEADER, NATIONAL RALLY PARTY (through translator): The equivalent of what we are in the United States is between the center-
right and the center-left with regards to ideas.
So, I think this --
AMANPOUR: You're kidding me, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: My international exclusive with Marine Le Pen, leader of the rebranded National Rally Party.
Also, ahead, in a year defined by challenges to democracy, I asked the head of Bloomberg Economics and Politics, Stephanie Flanders, and the New York
Times Bureau Chief here in London, Mark Landler, how these votes shape the global picture.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour, outside Parliament here in London.
It is a historic day. The new prime minister has taken office. Keir Starmer's Labour Party has won the general election in a landslide, ending
14 years of Conservative rule and pledging that change begins now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Now, our country has voted decisively for change, for national renewal and a return of politics to
public service. When the gap between the sacrifices made by people and the service they receive from politicians grows this big, it leads to a
weariness in the heart of a nation.
With respect and humility, I invite you all to join this government of service in the mission of national renewal. Our work is urgent and we begin
it today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Indeed, Labour sweeps into power with its biggest majority since Tony Blair back in 1997. As for voters' rejection of the Conservative
Party, outgoing Prime Minister Rishi Sunak took responsibility.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RISHI SUNAK, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: To the country, I would like to say, first and foremost, I am sorry. I have given this job my all, but
you have sent a clear signal that the government of the United Kingdom must change, and yours is the only judgment that matters. I have heard your
anger, your disappointment, and I take responsibility for this loss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And as goes the pomp and circumstance of a British election, Sunak formally tendered his resignation to the king who then invited
Starmer to form a government in a process known as the kissing of the hands.
Also, a record number of women were elected to Parliament. So, as the U.K. bucks the far-right trend, sweeping some of Europe's biggest countries,
Labour's Sadiq Khan, who recently won a third term as mayor of London, gave me his reaction to the results.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SADIQ KHAN, LONDON MAYOR AND LABOUR PARTY POLITICIAN: Well, this is a political earthquake that hits our country. The results in this general
election are frankly astonishing. I mean, normally when a party csomes into government, there have been incremental progress made in previous
elections. In fact, in this election, you've seen the Labour Party recover from the worst election since 1935, in 2019 to the best results you could
imagine.
[13:05:00]
If you and I were speaking, and I think we did four and a half years ago, we were talking about the Labour Party potentially being extinct now, we're
in the cusp of power.
AMANPOUR: So, why?
KHAN: A number of reasons for this remarkable set of results. Keir Starmer became the Labour leader in 2019 and began the task of transforming and
changing the Labour Party, learning the lessons of that historic defeat in 2019 and making the Labour Party fit for purpose, listening to the
concerns, the anxieties people across the country had to a result where we've made gains in every region of the country. We're now the biggest
party in England, in Scotland and in Wales.
AMANPOUR: What are you going to do with that? Because you inherit, essentially what all analysts say, is a mess and a deep, deep hole,
financial hole, you've got problems like immigration and others. What -- how -- it's not a sunny upland, so to speak, right now, is it? I mean, you
know.
KHAN: Well, I was with Keir just three, four hours ago. What you'll see from Keir Starmer --
AMANPOUR: With your leader, Keir Starmer.
KHAN: That's right, with the next prime minister. What you'll see from Keir is somebody who's magnanimous. Somebody who will be a prime minister
with humility. He understands one of his jobs is to unite our country, bring our country together, heal our country.
For the last 14 years, the way Conservative parties have won elections is to pit one part of the country against another. Older against younger.
Those who wanted to remain in the E.U. versus those who wanted to leave. Keir's job, which he will do really well, is to bring our country together,
to heal our country, to listen to the concerns people have and then to address them.
AMANPOUR: What you said I thought was interesting that he has spent his time as leader reforming the Labour Party, because the Labour Party was
seen to have gone too extreme. There was antisemitism, there was just -- it was just too left to be elected, and you saw that for 14 years or more, it
wasn't.
What do you say to how your country has now returned to the center, given what's going on in Europe, for instance? I've just come back from
interviewing Marine Le Pen, the head of the National Rally, and that will air, you know, on this program. What do you say about the trends in the
democratic world, in Europe?
KHAN: Well, I think people across the globe are going to look to U.K., a new prime minister with a big majority, as a sea of calm. We will now, I
think, have at least one term, if not two terms, of a Labour government. Compare and contrast that with France, the huge uncertainty caused by the
elections taking place there now. Look at what's happening in America in relation to potential changes in November.
What I'm hoping, those watching this, investors and people who want to come to, you know, democratic countries, see in the U.K. a source of calm,
somewhere there's going to be economic stability, where there's going to be economic growth, where there's going to be wealth creation, but also, where
people are going to come together, whether you go to Italy, France.
We saw recently in Germany. We know what's happened with the biggest party in the Netherlands. Huge amount of nativist populist parties rising. Not in
the U.K. The biggest party by a country mile with 410 seats is the Labour Party.
AMANPOUR: And a very anti-immigrant policy, all of those parties have won by putting anti-immigration at the top of their list. You were very vocal.
I mean, you stepped, if I might say, out of your lane in terms of commenting on another country's internal politics. When Donald Trump
became, you know, president, the first thing he did was enact that so- called anti-Muslim ban. And you spoke about the danger of these divisions.
Tell me about what you think might happen, the U.S. and the U.K. have a special relationship, what might happen, again, between the two countries?
KHAN: One of the reasons why many of us, you know, comment about what happens in America is because we love America. You've got a special role in
relation to, frankly speaking, the leader of the western world. We, as the U.K., have a special relationship with the United States of America.
I think what you see with Prime Minister Keir Starmer is a mature prime minister who will work with anybody. He will want to have a constructive
relationship with America, and indeed, with the European Union. But it's really important for both of us to realize that one of the reasons why we
love each other is because we're candid with one another, and I'm hoping that candor will take place whoever the president is of the United States.
Clearly, I hope it's, you know, a Democratic president, President Biden. But if it's President Trump, I'm hoping there's a cordial, sensible
relationship, and I'm hoping, you know, President Trump also learns from his first term.
AMANPOUR: It was very clear, and not by accident, that Keir Starmer, now the prime minister, did not discuss re-entering Europe, re-negotiating
Brexit. But it's also very clear that Brexit has harmed the economy of this country, and cost of living and all of that kind of stuff has been
affected, trade has been affected.
[13:10:00]
What is the best that a new Labour prime minister could do to make that relationship, as you say, more mature, less friction, less isolation?
KHAN: Brexit has caused huge damage to my country economically, socially, and culturally. But I'm afraid we can't rejoin the European Union for the
foreseeable future. What we do know is the current deal the U.K. government has with the European Union is up for review next year in 2025.
And what you will see from a Labour government is closer alignment with the European Union. Why? Because they're our closest, you know, trading
partner. They're literally 30, 40 miles away and it's really important we have a good relationship with the European Union. You know, we really need
to have close alignment. Every business you speak to explains the importance of close alignment rather than divergence.
AMANPOUR: And finally, The Labour -- Labour lost certain seats to the policy. They were disappointed with your party's policy on the Israel-Gaza
war, and they lost. There were four at least who lost. What is Keir Starmer as prime minister going to do differently now that we're nine, 10 months
into this war and it shows no sign of ending and simply bodies keep piling up in Gaza?
KHAN: Well, you know, firstly, it's really important that we have the humility to learn the lessons of last night's results. They were brilliant
results for my party, but we lost three or four good colleagues to independent candidates.
What I'm hoping, Labour government does is use its influence over Israel. There needs to be a ceasefire. And there can't be a ground incursion into
Rafah. There's got to be humanitarian aid going into Israel. I think we'll see very soon is the Labour government making clear what the legal advice
is in relation to, you know, arms being sold to Israel.
We need to make sure that Netanyahu stops the killing in Gaza. We've seen 40,000 men, women, and children perish. Almost 20,000 children perish.
That's got to stop. Look, we need a two-state solution. Of course, it's outrageous what happened on October the 7th. Those hostages need to be
returned. But aid must get through to Gaza. And we've got to make sure, by the way, the atrocities in the West Bank also stop.
AMANPOUR: Sadiq Khan, London mayor, Labour Party, thank you so much indeed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So, many challenges. And as the Conservatives suffer their worst defeat in history, outgoing Chancellor of the Exchequer, Jeremy Hunt, had
this message for his children, "This may seem like a tough day for our family as we move out of Downing Street, but it isn't. We are incredibly
lucky to live in a country where decisions like this are made not by bombs or bullets, but by thousands of ordinary citizens peacefully placing
crosses in boxes and bits of paper.
Brave Ukrainians are dying every day to defend their right to do what we did yesterday, and we must never take that for granted. Don't be sad. This
is the magic of democracy.
Nevertheless, Conservatives will be doing a lot of soul-searching, as former Tory MP David Gauke told me.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: David Gauke, welcome. What is your reaction to this essential massacre of the Tory Party?
DAVID GAUKE, FORMER BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP AND FORMER BRITISH SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE: Yes, it's a terrible result for the Conservative Party,
and the worst result in the party's history. And it's going to take some recovering from. And frankly, at the moment, the Conservative Party is
fighting for its life.
AMANPOUR: You are actually not any longer a Tory Party member. You lost the whip. You left the party. Isn't that emblematic of what's wrong inside?
What happened?
GAUKE: I think there's a real struggle from the Conservative Party, which is that it's trying to appeal both to figures of the sort of populist
rights, and it's also trying to appeal to perhaps many traditional Conservative voters.
AMANPOUR: Like yourself?
GAUKE: Like people like me who want pro-business, you know, pragmatic, internationalist approach, putting the economy first, not taking any risks
with the public finances. And the difficulty is, to some extent, the elastic has snapped. The Conservative Party has struggled to appeal to on
either part of its coalition of support.
In government, it's acquired a reputation for incompetency and a lack of integrity. I would argue that that results from trying to be a more
populous party, and going in that direction has proven to be very damaging. But, you know, frankly what's happened overnight is that Conservatives have
been losing votes to the right and to the left, not really satisfying anybody, and that's why they're reduced to the state that they are.
AMANPOUR: We'll get into how you rebuild first, but you said, you know, the lack of integrity and it's become much more a populist party. It's also
about the people who've led it.
[13:15:00]
I mean, Boris Johnson, the Brexit campaign, and he -- he's the one who basically forced you out. People are having a backlash against his turmoil
that he brought and lack of integrity and being censured himself.
GAUKE: I think that's very much the case. So, essentially, you know, I think this does go back to Brexit. So, there was a lot of over promising
and under delivering. People promising that Brexit was going to transform the country in a positive way. You also had promises of levelling up, that
parts of the north of England, for example, were going to be transformed.
Now, that wasn't delivered. And to be honest, it was never going to be delivered. It was over promising. Then you've got what happened under Boris
Johnson when in government, the various scandals about parties in Downing Street and so on and a lack of honesty about that. So, a reputation for
integrity was lost. And then following Boris Johnson, you had Liz Truss coming in, blew up the economy. It's meant that the Conservatives have got
the blame for higher interest rates. Actually, that's unfair really because she accelerated that but interest rates were going to go up anyway. But
nonetheless, the Conservative reputation for being fiscally sensible, responsible, was lost.
AMANPOUR: So, when people look at and try to analyze how you would rebuild, what they're seeing is your right flank, Boris Johnson's "partner
in Brexit crime," Nigel Farage, now in Parliament for the first time after eight tries, and absolutely determined to make themselves a power.
What does that mean for the Conservative Party, the pragmatic Conservatives that you want to see rebuilt? Because surely, it's a road map for tacking
even further right?
GAUKE: You're right. And there will be those who are making that argument, that will say, look at the votes we've lost to reform, look at the seats
we've lost to reform. You've got to bear in mind, reform won four seats last night. The Conservatives lost well over 200 seats to Labour and the
Liberal Democrats.
And if you go down the route of trying to be like reform and trying to tap into people's anger and so on, well, that will work for some people, but it
will put off others. And also, more fundamentally, how do oppositions get into government?
Now, we've seen three examples in recent British political history. 1997 Tony Blair, 2010 David Cameron, and now, today, 2024 Keir Starmer. All of
those leaders took their parties into the center ground. They offered credibility, competence, they reassured voters who were nervous about a
change of government. We don't do it very often in this country. You know, those go back -- those three examples go back to 1997.
You need to reassure the public that you can be trusted in office. And that's what the Conservative Party needs to do. Go down the route of being
like Nigel Farage, and yes, you'll have cheering audiences, you'll be able to have rallies, lots of people very excited. There'll be newspapers that
will cheer you on. But that is not going to reassure the skeptical, pragmatic, calm British voter that is just looking for someone who will
come in and do the job, not muck their lives around, not create great dramas, just, you know, quiet competence. And that's what the Conservative
Party needs to get back to. It's what it abandoned some years ago, and it needs to return to that as soon as possible.
AMANPOUR: David Gauke, thank you very much indeed.
GAUKE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And coming up after the break, the high stakes election taking place across the channel. And my international exclusive interview with the
far-right leader Marine Le Pen. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. World leaders are sending best wishes to Keir Starmer after his electoral triumph. Amongst them, the
French president, Emmanuel Macron, saying, congratulations to Keir Starmer on your victory. Pleased with our first discussion. We will continue the
work begun with the U.K. for our bilateral cooperation for peace and security in Europe, for the climate and for A.I.
Macron himself faces a tough parliamentary election in France following a far-right victory at the European elections. Marine Le Pen is the leader of
the National Rally, and she hopes to capitalize on Macron's bold gamble of calling a snap election by daring voters to raise her to power in France. I
sat down with Le Pen in Paris for an international exclusive interview just ahead of this weekend's second round of these elections.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Marine Le Pen, welcome to the program. Tell me something first, were you surprised when President Macron threw the dice and laid down this
gamble? What did you think?
MARINE LE PEN, FORMER LEADER, NATIONAL RALLY PARTY (through translator): Thank you, first of all, for your invitation. We asked for the dissolution
of Parliament as a result of the European elections, but what surprised us is that he did it so quickly.
I think that he was trying to obtain an absolute majority because he only had a relative majority at the National Assembly, and he thought that by
rushing this election and giving a very short deadline, he would disorganize the opposition political movements and that he would come out
victorious in the election, but it wasn't the case.
AMANPOUR: So, you think he's lost this gamble?
LE PEN (through translator): Yes, he has obviously failed in his project since the results he got in the first round are not good. And the National
Rally, that I'm happy to belong to and that I've been leading for more than 10 years, appeared as the great winner of this election in the first round,
regardless of the results of the second.
AMANPOUR: As we know, a third of French voters voted for you and for your party, and two-thirds did not. And, as you know, President Macron is trying
to get a coalition to stop you, a firewall, so to speak, to stop you becoming the majority in Parliament. What does it feel like to be
considered so dangerous? How does it feel?
LE PEN (through translator): We don't represent any danger, apart from making him lose power. In reality, all the energy that he puts into
fighting us, it's simply because he knows that we are the alternative movement. We are the ones who can secure an absolute majority. The far-left
does not have that option. So, the danger of which he's talking is a threat to his own power.
But what's paradoxical is that he called for a dissolution by saying that the people should have their say again. But by strategizing between the two
rounds, by withdrawing his candidates, asking people to vote for the far- left, he's actually refusing to let French people express themselves freely. It's rather paradoxical.
AMANPOUR: It's still a third that you got. Do you like -- do you admire Kylian Mbappe, the hero of French soccer?
LE PEN (through translator): I'm not much of a football enthusiast, I'll be frank.
AMANPOUR: But as a national hero?
[13:25:00]
LE PEN (through translator): I believe that Mr. Mbappe is a very good footballer, but this tendency for actors, footballers, and singers to come
forward and tell French people how they should vote, and particularly to people who earn EUR1,300 or EUR1,400 a month, whilst they are millionaires
or even billionaires who live abroad, it's starting to not be well received in our country.
French people are fed up of being lectured and advised on how to vote. This election is an election of emancipation in which the French people want to
take back control of their destiny and vote as they see fit.
AMANPOUR: You jumped in because you knew what I was going to ask you, so I need to explain. What he said was, I don't want to represent a country that
doesn't correspond to my values, our values. People say, don't mix football and politics, but this is really important, much more important than
football. The situation is dire and we need to act.
He didn't tell people how to vote, he just said, you don't represent the kind of country that he would want to play for.
LE PEN (through translator): Yes. Well, we know exactly why he did it and what the purpose of his statement was. But then, again, these are people
who are lucky enough to be living comfortably, very comfortably to be protected from insecurity, poverty, unemployment, and everything else that
affects and hurts our compatriots.
I think that at a time when the population is preparing to vote, they should show a bit of restraint. Let me give you an example. A left-wing
mayor came to see me and said, I've never voted for the National Rally, but I can't stand hearing any more lectures from people who know nothing about
how the French are suffering. So, this time, I'm going to vote for you. That's what these kinds of statements lead to.
AMANPOUR: It's interesting you say that he's privileged. Yes, now he is. But he represents, I think, people who are, you know, immigrants, people
who are minorities, people who've had to work very hard. So, I need to ask you about your economic program.
You have said that you want to help people by slashing energy tax like TVR (ph) on energy, sales tax on energy. But from the figures that we've got,
that would cost EUR38 billion because you say that you will slash benefits to certain immigrants, but that will only save you EUR700 million a year.
So, how do your figures add up?
LE PEN (through translator): First of all, in response to your comment earlier, no, Mr. Mbappe doesn't represent French people with an immigration
background because there are far more of them living on the minimum wage who can't afford housing and can't afford heating than people like Mr.
Mbappe.
As regards to the rest, allow me, first of all, to say that the economic results of Mr. Macron, supposedly the Mozart of finance, are catastrophic.
AMANPOUR: But that's not what independent economists say. They say he's run a pretty good economy, that he's made --
LE PEN (through translator): No, no.
AMANPOUR: -- a very interesting and attractive investment for foreign businesses.
LE PEN (through translator): Catastrophic. The record trade deficit, an all-time record in French history. The seven years of his presidency have
considerably weakened the country. Where the situation of French people today is such that they can no longer fill their cars with gas and many
can't fill their shopping carts. So, something has to be done.
We need to save money on spending that isn't vital. I'm thinking, for instance, of the net contribution to the European Union that has tripled
under Emmanuel Macron. Is it useful that it should triple under Emmanuel Macron?
AMANPOUR: It's interesting to hear you talk about this because, as you know, the economy minister, the finance minister, Bruno Le Maire, has said
that RN, your party, you, would take France, you know, Frexit in disguise. Take France out of the E.U. some way or the other. And by renegotiating
whatever you want to call it, but essentially take it out of the general E.U. contribution.
And when I spoke to you back in 2017, when you were running for president in 2017, you said, when I'm president, I'll organize a referendum. If I
can't negotiate -- and you called it France's sovereignty -- I will put it to the people in a referendum. And I will ask the French people to leave
the E.U. That's what you told me in 2017 in presidential race. Do you still stand by that?
[13:30:00]
LE PEN (through translator): No. And I've said it in the clearest possible way. We're not going to leave the European Union. But for one simple
reason, we now have the means with a number of our allies and the French have given us the political strength to enter into negotiations.
It's perfectly possible to want to re-negotiate, and that's where Bruno Le Maire is wrong. You can negotiate a certain number of European Union
policies and defend France's interests without necessarily wanting to leave the European Union.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And stay tuned for part two of our interview with Marine Le Pen after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Now, with more on my interview with Marine Le Pen, the leader of the National Rally. It's rebranded the far-
right National Front. We talk about Vladimir Putin, how she deals with him, the war in Ukraine. And I asked her about tussling with the E.U. as well.
And potential return of Donald Trump to the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, because you have spent a long time trying to rebrand your party, to the extent that here you are on the verge of
potentially taking power in government. But there's still a lot of troubling statements from members of your actual current party, including
people who are currently, you know, candidates for this election, like North Africans came to power in 2016. These people have no place in high
places, in high positions.
Ministerial positions must be held by Franco French people, (INAUDIBLE). I mean, then there was a very unfortunate image of a mixed-race child in
Brittany carrying a Breton flag, and then there was racist insults, and then this candidate put a white face, and he labeled it true Brittany,
false Brittany.
LE PEN (through translator): Madame, there are --
AMANPOUR: No, I just want to ask you, is this acceptable now, in the -- today's RN?
LE PEN (through translator): We had to put forward -- we had to come up with 1,000 candidates in 48 hours, 1,000 candidates. 1,000 candidates in 48
hours. Let's be very clear. Jordan Bardella said very clearly that people who have made unacceptable comments will be brought before the movement's
conflicts commission and will most certainly be excluded from the movement as others have been in the past.
[13:35:00]
See, I mean, I think that in any political movement, there can be what we call black sheep.
AMANPOUR: These people are still -- OK. I'm telling you, and it's not me telling you. This is in the French press, will they be expelled?
LE PEN (through translator): I'm not contesting the existence of these comments. I want to explain that, in response to these comments, our party
immediately initiated disciplinary proceedings against the candidate. And as a general rule, they are excluded because of these remarks. Other
political movements who also have candidates who make unacceptable remarks, rather than excluding them, they actually protect them, they cover them up,
and I think that's what we need to look at.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But I just want to know, will these people be exclu? Will they be expelled?
LE PEN (through translator): They are already facing --
AMANPOUR: They're running right now. They're now candidates. These names.
LE PEN (through translator): Madame, forgive me, we have certain procedures.
AMANPOUR: Yes, but you've got an election in three days.
LE PEN (through translator): No, but, madame, forgive me, but that's not my vision of justice. We have statutes whereby people in this situation
must be called before the conflicts committee, and they will be. There is a 21-day delay. But believe me, the jurisprudence of our commission is
extremely tough, and we do not let this kind of language slide.
LE PEN (through translator): Let me get to foreign affairs. You have in the past said things that cause people to worry about you, regarding, for
instance, Putin. You have talked about how, you know, Crimea, you said it to me, was always Russian. You said the sanctions on Putin should be
removed. Those that were put on him for annexing Crimea and invading parts of Ukraine. Now, he's fully invaded.
Are you committed to the victory of Ukraine? Will France keep supporting Ukraine against this illegal invasion? Do you call it an illegal invasion?
And will France continue to provide Ukraine with weapons to defend itself?
LE PEN (through translator): Madame, I think we can consider that the situation in Crimea was much more complicated than it is made out to be.
But it has nothing to do with what Russia did now. What Russia has done here is violate Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, violate Ukraine's
freedom, and bring war to Ukraine.
From the outset, we have condemned Russia in this matter, and we have supported Ukraine throughout these two years, indicating that we have two
red lines, which were sending French troops to Ukrainian territory, because the French are, I believe, totally opposed to this. And the delivery of
long-range weapons that could hit Russia and therefore, make France a co- belligerent in this conflict.
AMANPOUR: What did you make of the ministry of foreign affairs in Russia today tweeting that the people of France are seeking a sovereign foreign
policy that serves their national interests and a break from the dictate of Washington and Brussels? They're talking about your potential, you know,
head of government. They seem to be saying they welcome you coming to power. Does that bother you?
LE PEN (through translator): I don't feel like I need to be held accountable for Russian provocations. I mean, writing that tweet, I don't
know if it's revenge against Emmanuel Macron. But what's certain is that it's a form of interference. And in that sense, I find it unacceptable. I
think it's a provocation.
AMANPOUR: Jordan Bardella has said that only with an absolute majority would he accept to lead the next government. If you do not get an absolute
majority, will the RN take up the prime ministership?
LE PEN (through translator): If we don't have an absolute majority, we'll try to find one. In other words, we're going to turn to a certain number of
MPs who weren't elected with us but who might agree to support the policy we want to pursue and thus form this absolute majority.
If we don't succeed -- I mean, Jordan Bardella isn't going to agree to be prime minister just to have the prime minister's name on a business card.
If he can't do anything, if he can't get any laws passed because this absolute majority hasn't been found, then there's no point in agreeing to
go into government. It would even be, how can I put it, a form of betrayal of the electorate because voters elect us to do something to change
Emmanuel Macron's policies, not to sit on comfortable armchairs behind Louis XV's furniture to manage current affairs.
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Final question. The fact that your party did so well in the European elections, and so did Giorgia Meloni's party, and so did AFD. I
mean, you know, AFD, as you know, a little bit like the former National Front is very scary.
The fact that the far-right is becoming a very, very powerful force in Europe, and who knows, maybe now, with all that's going on in the United
States, Donald Trump might win a second term. How do you see Europe changing?
LE PEN (through translator): First of all, I strongly dispute the term far-right, which in your country refers to small groups that are extremely
radical and violent. If you like the equivalent --
AMANPOUR: You don't think you're far-right.
LE PEN (through translator): The equivalent of what we are in the United States is between the center-right and the center-left with regards to
ideas. So, I think this --
AMANPOUR: You're kidding me, right?
LE PEN (through translator): Yes. Yes. I'm telling you very honestly. I think this use of the term far-right carries a stigma and is very
pejorative. It does not correspond to what we are, and not at all to what the far-right is in the United States. That's the first thing to say.
Secondly, we can't put everyone in the same boat. For example, in Europe, we distanced ourselves from the AFD Party because we're in total
disagreement with a number of their statements.
So, together with Mrs. Meloni and with our differences too, are what we call patriots. In other words, we defend the existence and the power of
nations within the European Union, because nations are the expression of the French people.
When the European Union takes on certain roles without consulting anyone, it is no longer democratic. We are defenders of nations. We want a Europe
of nations, a Europe that respects the decisions of the people and not a super technocratic structure such as it exists today. And that's the path
that we want to follow. A Europe of nations that's respectful, that leads projects, a Europe that doesn't restrict, that doesn't threaten, that
doesn't blackmail when it comes to subsidies. Because that's not our vision.
Our Europe is the Europe of Airbus. Forgive me, it's a competitor. It's the Europe of Ariane. It's not the Europe of Madame von der Leyen. And so, we
will fight within Europe to redirect Europe in the direction that we want.
AMANPOUR: Would you like to see Donald Trump win again?
LE PEN (through translator): It's not for me to comment on American politics because I'm respectful towards democracy. It's up to the Americans
to decide. They're the best place to decide who should defend them and ensure the prosperity of the country. I have a lot to do myself in France
without having to comment on elections that are taking place abroad.
AMANPOUR: Marine Le Pen, thank you very much for joining us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: We'll discuss with our panel after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. These political shifts are happening in a year where more people than ever before are going to the polls all over the
world, including in the United States. As I discussed with New York Times London bureau chief Mark Landler and the head of economics and politics at
Bloomberg News, Stephanie Flanders.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So, in short. What would you attribute this massive landslide to, back to the center, center-left here in the U.K.?
MARK LANDLER, LONDON BUREAU CHIEF, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I guess I'd say above all, it's a repudiation of the status quo. It's an expression of
anger, of fatigue, of frustration with the Conservative Party after 14 years of government.
So, while it's a, a big victory for Labour, a victory on the scale of 1997 with Tony Blair, it's almost less about Labour than it is about the
collapse of the Conservative Party. There was simply a general recognition that their time was up, voters had had enough, and they took it out on them
in a very spectacular fashion.
AMANPOUR: And not just their time was up, Stephanie. I mean, I've heard even from a former Tory MP who was defenestrated by Boris Johnson for
opposing his Brexit plans and the rest, that it was the lack of integrity that was shown amongst the top leaders. It was the flame out, as he said,
you know, one of our prime ministers who lasted less time than an actual, you know, lettuce on the international stage. They really had some bad
leaders.
STEPHANIE FLANDERS, SENIOR EXECUTIVE EDITOR FOR ECONOMICS, BLOOMBERG: Yes, and I think they -- when you've seen -- one of the things that's been the
theme of the campaign is pollsters pointing to the collapse of trust in politicians. And when people kind of looked around for who were those
politicians that had presided in the last 14 years over this collapse in Truss, it was, of course, all the Conservative Party.
But I would say it's, you know, as long as the kicking of the Conservative Party went along with a really brutal first past the post system, I mean,
it is extraordinary to say --
AMANPOUR: Yes, that's historically so.
FLANDERS: Yes. But except for they've never had a situation where the Labour Party could get fewer votes and still and announce --
AMANPOUR: Fewer votes than last time?
FLANDERS: Fewer votes than last time. And actually double their number of seats and, you know, get -- on less than a third of the vote, get nearly
two-thirds of the seats. So, I think there was also that factor. But, you know, Labour had made itself electable under Keir Starmer, and we will see
what happens next.
AMANPOUR: I mean, the point is that is the system here. We can talk about the fairness or not, you know, infinitely, but I mean, the point is that is
the system here. What they care about is the building behind us and how many bums on seats they have to be able to do the people's business.
And I was actually taken by Keir Starmer's speech in which he tried to inject a sense of anti-cynicism again, we want to be the party of service
for the people, we want to actually have you, you know, rebuild your faith in what government can do if we try to do things that you want together.
LANDER: I think part of that reflected his recognition that if he can't get a measure of goodwill from the public, he could find himself in two or
three years right where the conservatives found themselves. In other words, in an atmosphere of deep distrust, of lack of goodwill, of suspicion that
politicians are in it for themselves, the public is not inclined to give the government a lot of slack.
And slack is what he needs because he has very little money, he has an enormous set of problems, and in order for this to work, he needs the
public to kind of roll with the party a little bit, and with the government. So, I think that was almost a bid for a measure of goodwill
that hasn't existed for very good reason over the last few years.
AMANPOUR: I must say, one of the things I found really quite something by Keir Starmer was the tribute he paid, first and foremost, to Rishi Sunak,
and how Rishi Sunak was the first Asian-British to become, you know, prime minister, and it showed, you know, and had worked so hard. I found that
actually kind of touching.
FLANDERS: Yes, I think so. And it was also -- it was followed Rishi Sunak's speech outside where he'd apologized to the people for not having
done enough and paid tribute to Keir Starmer. So, you had this love in after a pretty vicious campaign, particularly from the conservative side.
But I think what's -- what is interesting is you have a very old-fashioned pitch for a kind of technocratic government. You know, he's not into
vision. There isn't a Starmer-ism the way there was a Jeremy Corbyn-ism. He just wants to show that he can get things done. And, you know, that's the
kind of centrist pitch that has been doing pretty badly.
[13:50:00]
I mean, we're going to have a NATO Summit next week where he's going to be surrounded by lame ducks. Many of whom have tried that pitch and are
currently failing or likely to lose.
AMANPOUR: So, let's discuss then what is happening. Because in France, it is very ideological what's happening. Marine Le Pen, the head of the
National Rally, the rebranded National Front, which is a far-right party, you know, she seems to be the woman of the hour. What is that going to mean
on the national stage? Well, first to France, do you think?
LANDER: Well, I mean, the interesting thing, and we don't know the answer yet, is how the second round of voting works out, and what kind of position
the far-right wind up in, whether it's a sort of a political paralysis or whether they're really able to carve out a cohabitation, which would be a
very different era for the French.
It'll be also interesting, it's going to be a while before the presidential election comes and Marine Le Pen will have time to continue this rebranding
process. And I sort of am interested to see whether she takes a page from Giorgia Meloni in Italy. And also, the extent to which there's any overlap
with the Reform Party and the populist wave, which got a little bit of momentum here in this election as well.
And then lastly, of course, the Donald Trump factor. Whatever happens in France would presumably be somewhat affected by the direction the United
States takes in November, and of course, that we don't know at all.
AMANPOUR: And she wouldn't be -- you know, she wouldn't be engaged when I asked her who she wants to win in the United States. Although, you know,
her policies are very much aligned with Trump's.
But, Stephanie, you know, the markets in France reacted positively when she didn't win an outright majority or a majority in the first round. And we
talk about pragmatic technocrat government returned here. All the independent analysts, economics, say that her figures for fixing the
legitimate, you know, cost of living pain in France just don't add up. What can the French people expect?
FLANDERS: No, and you already have. I mean, France is -- we know that Italy has a debt problem, but actually what's been creeping up on everyone
is the debt problem that France has. France is the other country that's not sticking by the European Union rules on borrowing. It has, you know, one of
the biggest debt stocks in the -- in Europe now, and no signs of it really coming under control.
I think it will be interesting. I think the reason why the markets were calm was not just that she didn't get a majority, but as we've seen over
the course of this week, you've had this funny horse trading between the far -- you know, across -- between the center and the far-left trying to
make sure there's only one candidate to stand against the Rassemblement National. They seem to have been remarkably successful, given how extreme
many of those left-wing parties are.
I think the market's very happy that the left is also probably not going to be in a position because their -- if anything, their policies are even more
extreme and would do even more damage to the balance sheet.
But whether the -- whether Le Pen, if she did have influence over the government in some form of coalition, could actually -- would actually want
to push some of her most expensive policies, I doubt. Because to your point, she wants to show that she can be a responsible president.
AMANPOUR: So, now let's go over to the United States and how the kind of meltdown is, how will it affect Europe and the Transatlantic alliance?
Let's just say there is another Trump presidency. People have seen it, people have tried to Trump proof over this side of the Atlantic.
LANDER: I've long detected a sense of fatalism among Europeans. Europeans, I think even more than Americans, will tell you, we know it's going to be
Donald Trump. They just feel that's the trajectory this race is on. So, as you say, they've been hedging a lot already.
What's very interesting about the U.K. is it's now elected a center-left government with potentially a foreign secretary whose claim to fame was his
close ties with President Barack Obama. So, I think at a minimum, they'd have to be very concerned about what a Trump United States would look like.
On the other hand, it's also worth noting that Theresa May had an absolutely dreadful time with Donald Trump when she was the prime minister,
a conservative prime minister. And Boris Johnson may have fared slightly better because of this sort of surface similarity between the two of them -
-
AMANPOUR: But still, he still didn't get his trade deal.
LANDER: Didn't get his trade deal. And I think leaders have found, whatever their stripe, that dealing with Donald Trump is fundamentally a
very difficult thing, and that would be true of whoever won this election.
AMANPOUR: And what do you think, Stephanie, particularly in the vital area of the alliance and NATO?
FLANDERS: I think there's going to be enormous concern about Ukraine, obviously, immediately. I mean, we saw President Zelenskyy this week say,
look, if Donald Trump has a plan for ending this war overnight, please tell me now, because I would like to end it now rather than six months' time.
And there's that, he was joking about it, but obviously, there is that fear. And I think that's primarily where you'd be focused short-term if
you're concerned, as I think you'd have to be, about the U.S. pivoting very strongly away from support for Europe on a security standpoint and towards
Asia, there's a strong argument they would be continuing defense but investing in Asia.
[13:55:00]
On the sort of more day-to-day level, I mean, I think the assumption has always been that President Trump would win. And what you find here in the
financial community and across Europe, the same as you do in the U.S., there's a remarkable number in the business community who seem to be quite
relaxed about Trump winning and expect money to be flowing to the U.S. and want to attach themselves to the U.S.
AMANPOUR: Interesting. Stephanie Flanders, Mark Lander, thank you so much indeed.
LANDER: Thank you very much.
FLANDERS: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, an emotional week of farewell for the British tennis legend Andy Murray. A two-time Wimbledon champion, Olympic gold
medalist and U.S. Open winner. Fans and giants of the sport came out to center court to celebrate as he plays his final Wimbledon. His legacy also
includes championing women's rights on and off the court. Here's what he told me in 2020.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY MURRAY, TENNIS PLAYER: I think we have a very unique sport and that we have the men and the women competing at the biggest competitions
together, that doesn't really happen in any of the other global sports and I see that as a big positive. We have equal prize money at those events,
which I think is fantastic and I think that's very attractive to sponsors, to the audience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And fittingly, Andy Murray plays his final matches with Emma Raducanu in the mixed doubles.
That's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
