Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with Democratic Strategist and CNN Political Commentator Paul Begala; Interview with Rescued Israeli Hostage Andrey Kozlov; Interview with The Bulwark Founder and Former Editor-in-Chief Charlie Sykes. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 12, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: I got more work to do. We got more work to finish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Joe Biden remains resolute amid mounting calls for him to drop out of the presidential race. How can Democrats resolve this crisis and
move on? I asked political strategist Paul Begala.
And reunited after eight months of captivity. In an exclusive interview, I speak to rescued Israeli hostage, Andrey Kozlov, about his traumatic
experience, being taken by Hamas following the October 7th Nova Music Festival attack.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE SYKES, FOUNDER AND FORMER EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE BULWARK: I have to say that I can't recall a time when Republicans were feeling more
optimistic than they are right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- Walter Isaacson talks to conservative commentator, Charlie Sykes, about the upcoming Republican National Convention.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Pressure is building for President Joe Biden to quit the race. And yet, he's made it clear he's not giving up on his campaign for re-election.
Here's what he said in that much anticipated NATO press conference last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: There are at least five presidents running or incumbent presidents who had lower numbers than I have now later in the
campaign. So, there's a long way to go in this campaign. And so, I'm just going to keep moving. Keep moving. And because, look, I got more work to
do. We got more work to finish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Speaking for almost an hour, the president put on a competent show, but his blunders remain the most memorable takeaway, like
accidentally referring to his own Vice President Kamala Harris as Vice President Trump, compounded by an earlier mistake calling Ukraine's
President Zelenskyy President Putin.
Well, now, at least 18 Democrats in Congress are calling for the president to withdraw from the White House race, including Jim Himes, the widely
respected ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee.
So, what now for Joe Biden and the Democratic Party? Strategist Paul Begala was a counselor to President Bill Clinton and is a long-time political
analyst. Like all senior Democrats, he's wrestling with this unprecedented challenge.
Paul, it is good to see you. And as we heard from Congressman Himes yesterday, clearly it was obvious that that statement was written before
the press conference and he sent it once it finished. And he said as much afterwards in interviews that it didn't have as much to do with his
performance in that one night, but he was looking at all of the other evidence, all of the other polling, the months of concerns surrounding the
president's mental acuity and obviously his age.
Let's play what he said, and I want to get your response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: And now I want to hand it over to the president of Ukraine who has as much courage as he has determination, ladies and gentlemen, President
Putin. President Putin? He's going to beat President Putin. President Zelenskyy.
Look, I wouldn't have picked Vice President Trump to be vice president until I think she was not qualified to be president. So, let's start there.
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): All I can do is look at the numbers right now. No president has ever won with a 37 percent approval rating. Look at the swing
states, because this isn't a race that is decided in five or six states. And imagine that three months from now we get another performance like
there was in the debate, right before the election. Do you want to take that risk? I don't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Paul Begala, a long-time Democrat, loyal Democrat, strategist adviser, is that a risk you want to take? Do you agree with Jim Himes or do
you agree with President Biden that says he's the only one that can do this job?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, there's only one vote. It is not mine, and that's Joe Biden's. And I hope
he's listening to his critics. You know, when I worked for President Clinton, he would always say that to me. He'd say, Ben Franklin said you
should thank your critics because they point out your flaws. So, rather than be defensive, I think he needs to listen.
I thought he showed substantive mastery at that press conference last night. He clearly is up to the job of being leader of the free world. I
thought he led the free world wonderfully. And yet, as soon as it ended, he lost three more of his members of his own party for his own re-election.
[13:05:00]
Why? Because it was a tactical solution to an existential problem, right? Concerned that Congressman Hines -- who by the way, you're -- you know
this, but he's the ranking member, the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. It's not some minor league backbencher. So, the
issues he's raising are existential. They are -- well, Nancy Pelosi said it best 10 days ago. She said, is this an episode, the debate performance, or
is it a condition? Well, George Clooney says it's conditioned. Clooney says he hosted him at a fundraiser and the president didn't perform well.
Congressman Himes seems to think it's a condition. He says it's going to happen again.
And you're seeing, certainly, Democrats moving in that direction. The question is, will Joe Biden listen to them? And I have no idea is the
honest answer.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, Congressman Himes and, we should note, George Clooney, are not physicians. The president said that he has spoken and met with
physicians and neurologists in the past and that he would be open for another examination if they came to him and said that he should have one.
He said that has not happened yet.
But what is notable is people like Nancy Pelosi and even representative Clyburn, who incidentally today said that he is all in for Biden. And
obviously his support for President Biden really helped save his last campaign in 2020, especially with the crucial black vote. But then he went
on to say, just like Nancy Pelosi, that Joe Biden should make his own decisions about his future.
And what I'm stumped on, Paul, is that President Biden has made his decision. He's been very clear. He's not saying, I'm listening, I'm
thinking about it, I'm debating, I'm open to changing my mind. He said, I am all in. So, how should we be reading? How are you reading in parsing
these words here from people who are real diehard Joe Biden supporters, people that have loved him and view that he did a very good job these last
three and a half years?
BEGALA: Absolutely. There's no way Joe Biden becomes president without Jim Clyburn. There's no way Joe Biden becomes a successful president without
Nancy Pelosi. OK. These are not swing voters. These are not Republicans. These are the most loyal people in Joe Biden's presidency. And they're
clearly opening the door.
You're exactly right. You don't -- you parse what Speaker Emerita Pelosi said when she said, well, he's got an important decision to make, after he
had already said he made a decision. She's essentially giving him the permission.
You know, and in addition to being the greatest legislative leader in all of American history, Nancy Pelosi raised five kids. I've raised four. And
when they become adults, you start to learn that permission is more powerful than pressure. And so, I think very wisely, Mr. Clyburn, Speaker
Emerita Pelosi, instead of pushing this proud, powerful man in which he would dig his heels in, they're reminding him of what a success he's been,
and they're reminding him of the stakes, that more and more Democrats and grassroots Democrats, the majority of Democrats right now think he's too
old to carry the fight to Donald Trump, and it's the fear of Trump that's driving our politics today in my party.
GOLODRYGA: Right. And the president has really been outspoken, aggressive and defensive this week, going out on television interviews and saying that
he doesn't care about the elite in the party, that it's all about the grassroots and the everyday voters.
But the voters are also speaking as well. And a lot of the concern from members of Congress comes from these voters, particularly in vulnerable
areas, vulnerable districts and swing states that the president has to win. We know he's traveling to Michigan today. You'll be going to Texas next
week.
I want to play for you some sound from a focus group last night in response to following that press conference and some voters concerns and views on
the president today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What emotion does he evoke in you when you see him on TV. Like fill in the blank. When I see President Biden on TV, I feel X.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Worried.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Respect and sadness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Embarrassed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pity and disgust all rolled into one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Paul, you know, the president, like all of us, can't age backwards. So, all of those concerns that they've just laid out I would
imagine would only exacerbate as time goes by. How does the president -- can the president change that?
BEGALA: I don't think he can, to be candid, because it is existential. I worked for Bill Clinton. Voters in his first term thought he had gotten too
liberal. So, he pivoted to the center. Joe can't pivot to being 45 again.
And this is the problem, most of us have no experience with these important national security issues where he's led so masterfully or the domestic
issues, but all of us love someone who has aged or who is aging, and we've all had that conversation with our grandpa, with our mom, with our uncle
Fred.
[13:10:00]
This is a universal experience aging. And this is the problem is that Democrats' opponent is Donald Trump. Joe Biden's opponent is Father Time.
Father Time is undefeated, and that's the problem he faces.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and we also know once those conversations are being had with your grandfather or your grandmother, it's sort of -- the game's over
at that point. Rarely do you hear them giving them and allowing them to take the car keys and not being concerned anymore about their ability to
drive.
But the president remains defined. It seems that he's focused on certain polling that benefits him. And I want to ask you about a poll that just
came out today that does just that. An NPR NewsHour, Marist Poll said that -- it's a national poll and it's within the margin of error, but it shows
the president leading Donald Trump 50 percent to 48 percent.
And in response to that, Ron Klain, who was a very close ally and confidante of President Biden, served as former chief of staff, obviously,
has helped him over the years and in his debate prep for the debate two weeks ago, he tweeted in response to this, with yesterday's press
conference in this new poll, it's time to end the freak out and unite behind the Democratic nominee and the only person who has ever beaten
Trump.
How do you read all of these conflicting polls?
BEGALA: Well, they're conflicting. And I love Ron. He's a dear friend. But he knows that's not going to end anything. These are good polls for Biden.
You're right. He's tied, essentially, in an ABC poll and this Marist Poll from NPR. But here's the thing. Four years ago, he was ahead by 10. He won
the election by three.
So, polling has not been very accurate in the age of Trump. When Trump is on the ballot, when he's not, pollsters generally get it right. When Trump
is on the ballot, there's very often -- not very often, always, this cushion of low propensity voters who we don't catch in our polls who turn
out for Mr. Trump.
So, again, Biden was leading by 10 four years ago. He won by three. It doesn't mean that same cushion is there. We don't know is the honest
answer. But if it's plus one or minus one, plus two or minus two nationally, it's even closer in those swing states. And Democrats really
believe, all of them, from the grassroots all the way up to George Clooney and Nancy Pelosi, that Donald Trump is an existential threat to our
democracy.
They don't just think he's got like bad tax policy, OK? They think he'll end the American experiment. I happen to think they're right. But that's
why this is so dire for Democrats. Is there -- there's these terribly conflicting emotions. There's this terrible fear of Trump and certain
knowledge in their view that he'll end the democracy, but then there's this deep love and affection for Biden.
Biden has been at this a long time. He's a really good person. Every Democrat has had an interaction with him that has been wonderful and loving
and empathetic. On top of that, he's been very impressive in his performance as president. So, this is the war that's going on in every
Democrat's heart. And I suppose President Biden is listening to half of those emotions and not the other half.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. In the last remaining 20 seconds or so, Paul, the longer this goes on, the more -- the party's just going to kneecap their own
president if this continues. How long do you think that this hemorrhaging can continue before a final decision is made on either side?
BEGALA: Well, even after -- let's say a final decision is made and President Biden continues to run, which is where he seems to want to go.
Confirmation bias is the most powerful drug there is. So, every time anybody sees even a normal stumble or gap, he says Slovenia when he means
Slovakia, right, voters are going to use that as confirmation bias for their fear that he's too old for the job. That will never go away. And
that's the existential crisis the Biden candidacy faces.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And like you said, a lot of that is what Biden has always done throughout his career is fumble some words. Paul Begala, thank you so
much for joining us. Always great to see you.
BEGALA: Thanks, Bianna. Great to see you too.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we turn now to Gaza, where 120 hostages are still being held by Hamas, their fate in limbo. In his opening remarks last night,
President Biden spoke of his determination to get a ceasefire deal, saying "there's still gaps to close. We're making progress."
Behind at least some of those gaps is believed to be Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who reportedly hardened his demands for a hostage deal
once again. Well, this week, I spoke with rescued hostage Andrey Kozlov, who was held captive by Hamas for eight months.
A Russian Israeli citizen, Andrey had only been living in Israel for about a year when he was taken from the Nova Music Festival on October 7th. Along
with three others, he was rescued from Gaza's Nuseirat Camp on June 8th.
[13:15:00]
In an exclusive television interview, Andrey shared his with me. And I started by asking how he was feeling after just one month of freedom.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREY KOZLOV, RESCUED ISRAELI HOSTAGE: Every day I feel much better than the last one. I appreciate all that I have right now. And I don't forget
nothing. But someday, even I feel good, in some moment, suddenly, I can start to cry.
And if I hear some song that I remember, if I see some photos from my previous life before Gaza, that I remember, of course, when I was in Gaza,
it's like main reasons of my tears.
GOLODRYGA: Once you got into Gaza, what happened?
KOZLOV: When we went through the wall, like through the gate, we saw big field. This field was full of people, civilian people probably. I don't
know. They were really happy. They had savage energy. And they were really like, ah. I was -- I hold handle of the current. Somebody started to --
GOLODRYGA: Were you scared?
KOZLOV: It was condition of shock. I was not scared. I didn't realize, like, what's going on. And they took us. They tied up hands like this. Put
us on the floor. And I started to explain them, like, I'm Russian. Like, I don't speak Hebrew. I speak only Russian and English. To, to explain them,
like, ya russkiy, ya russkiy.
GOLODRYGA: I'm Russian?
KOZLOV: I'm Russian. Like, I don't speak Hebrew. I speak only Russian and English, to explain to them. Like, what can we do? Some guy was from the
left side of me. And he has, like, gun. I tried to, like, touch him and ask him, like, you, us -- kill us?
GOLODRYGA: You asked him if they were planning to kill you?
KOZLOV: Yes, I asked him. Like, it's only one thought that I had. Like, what are they going to do with us? In couple of hours, they brought Almog
(ph). Like, the same day. And in some moment, one guy he was like -- I was really scared about him. I was really afraid. And he took fabric from my
ass and showed me with signs, like, I, tomorrow, you, I will film you, and I will kill you. It was in the first day of our being in Gaza.
GOLODRYGA: Your mom said that you were tied up like that for two months.
KOZLOV: The first three days was with ropes. Until middle of December, we were in chains.
GOLODRYGA: You were tied with chains?
KOZLOV: With chains. They were afraid that we will run away, like, maybe, I don't know. But in December, they took off and we were free.
GOLODRYGA: And always the three of you together.
KOZLOV: Yes, yes. But in some days, in three days they started to treat us a little bit better. They started to give us food and you already
understand that probably they are not going to kill us. We are kidnapped. And they explained us, like, we want to change. Like they -- like --
GOLODRYGA: Prisoners --
KOZLOV: -- with signs, with signs, like, you are going to Israel, our people go to Gaza and West Bank. And you don't understand, like, what will
happen, like, when we will go home. And you ask them, like, what's going on outside?
They told us some news that is going on between Gaza and Israel, between the USA and Israel. And during all these eight months, we had, like, waves
of our mood. Like, we have some good news, and after, like, phew, nothing. Like, the deal broken, something bad happened, like bomb, shooting outside,
a lot of bombs. And in the night, you wake up like it was a lot of times in different places.
[13:20:00]
You woke up, you wake up and like because of the really big bomb fall down, like, near to your place, like 50 meters maybe or 100. It's like sound from
hell. You wake up, you have heartbreak, like, pulse, maybe 200, I don't know. You have eyes like this, and everybody woke up, and we don't talk.
Only one thought that we have, I had, like, probably everybody had. Maybe the next bomb will be our.
GOLODRYGA: But obviously, you were aware that there was now a war going on and these were the IDF bombs that you were hearing that gave you heart
palpitations. Were you afraid you were going to die any one of those days?
KOZLOV: First three months, we were afraid of every bomb that we heard. Like every time you started to hide in the corners of our room. And
terrorists, like, what are you afraid? In Arabic, but we already understood it.
GOLODRYGA: The doctors, your mom, said that there was a lot of psychological warfare conducted and abuse. How often would you hear things
like that, and how did it make you feel?
KOZLOV: Not from everybody, but some of them, the last one, the last main bad guy who was with us. At the last -- our place, he told us a lot like,
Israel wants to kill us and we are problem for Israel and they try to solve this problem like with the way of bomb, that your family doesn't try to
find you. And to Shlomi they said that your wife is probably looking for somebody else.
GOLODRYGA: Did you ever believe it?
KOZLOV: I try not to believe in this. Like, I was sure that my family is looking for me. I was sure that wife of Shlomi keep going and try to find
him. I was sure that Israel doesn't want to kill us. But they told us this a lot.
GOLODRYGA: Did you see any other hostages in your eight months there?
KOZLOV: I saw, but I don't want to talk about it.
GOLODRYGA: Because it's too painful or because you're worried about them?
KOZLOV: It's painful. It's -- it can be dangerous for them. So, I want-- I don't want to talk about it.
GOLODRYGA: Were they in worse shape than you were?
KOZLOV: Yes, they were.
GOLODRYGA: Many?
KOZLOV: Not many.
GOLODRYGA: When did you move to Nuseirat?
KOZLOV: I don't know, but if you mean the last place, it started in the middle of December. This apartment was really big, maybe 180. And one half
-- in one of the half we were -- like we took place and another half, it was for family. No one time we didn't see faces because like we were
separated with the door.
GOLODRYGA: And you never saw them?
KOZLOV: Yes, we didn't see them, never.
GOLODRYGA: So, tell me about that day of the rescue, June 8th.
KOZLOV: We were sure in that day, in 8th of June, that it was like regular morning. I was reading some book about Marco Polo.
GOLODRYGA: They gave you books?
KOZLOV: Couple, like -- for like they gave us book only in April. They gave us also some stories about Quran and you can read, you cannot read, we
don't care. So, we read it. Of course, we read because it's like to take our mind with something. And sometimes -- like suddenly, like -- like, in
every window that we had, like, started to -- little explosions, like -- and they already inside, like, they -- and I was like, ah, what's going on?
What's going on?
[13:25:00]
You're like, you're a little bit freezed. You're in shock. You're afraid. Of course. Of course. If they -- if it is like Israeli army, I thought that
they told us that if they come to rescue, we will kill you. Like, don't think that we will give them to rescue. I understood that it's a -- that's
a (INAUDIBLE). I will -- I prayed, like, they had, like, couple of seconds to kill us. Like, I mean --
GOLODRYGA: They were in the room with you?
KOZLOV: Not in the same room, but they have like five meters, like one shoot. No, but they didn't do this. Like they were killed maybe in like
five seconds. They started to ask our names, like sham, sham. Probably you saw it in the video.
And Almog, Almog. Andrey, Andrey. Shlomi. We start to, like, ah, it's Israeli army. And some guy, he was Russian speaker. He ask me, like,
Andrey, Andrey. He told me in Russian, I will translate to you. Like, I will go with you. You will go with me, only with me. Two meters maximum
from me. We will rescue. Today, you will be at home.
Seriously? At home? Today? Already today? Really? You don't joke? Yes, yes, (INAUDIBLE). OK. I am (INAUDIBLE). Let's go. Let's do it. Let's do it. And
after they did what they did, what they can to say that, I smoke in tank, like, it was like, smoke in tank.
GOLODRYGA: You smoked a cigarette?
KOZLOV: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Did you watch the video of your rescue?
KOZLOV: A lot of times.
GOLODRYGA: A lot of times?
KOZLOV: A lot. Even today.
GOLODRYGA: Why?
KOZLOV: It's something great. And it was something special for me and it's my third birthday. The first one was on 7th of October. The third one in
the end of the June. And of course, I -- like, I remember this. I made this tattoo. It's scars that I got from 7th of October when I fall from the
cliff and some bushes cut my skin.
GOLODRYGA: We all saw the video of when you were reunited with your mother at the hospital. As a mother, it brought tears to my eyes to see how you
fell down on your knees, hugging her. Do you know how difficult, I would imagine you do, those eight months were for them?
KOZLOV: I was so afraid not to see them.
GOLODRYGA: You thought you'd never see them again?
KOZLOV: I was afraid. I imagined how that my mother, and father, and brother, I will not hear the words I love you anymore. I know that 120
hostages are still there, and fortunately for me, I was lucky. Unfortunately for them, they are still in Gaza. And they don't know when
they will come back. It's absolutely disgusting and terrible feelings.
[13:30:00]
I don't imagine how it -- like how to live in tunnels. We need bring them home as soon as possible. They can die there after months. And they are
waiting. They keep going, and they -- all of them, they are already strong. But some of them, they don't have time. So, we need deal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Andrey told me he thinks about those remaining hostages every single day, and he's so grateful that he had Shlomi and Almog with him
throughout those eight months. I asked him if he has spoken to them in this past month now that he's been home, and he said no, that they are giving
each other their well-deserved space right now.
We also want to point out that early in this interview, you may have seen banners that referenced Andrey as released. Of course, he was not a
released hostage. He was a rescued hostage by the IDF. We changed that banner. And for the remainder of the interview, of course, noted that he
was a rescued hostage, rescued last month with three others.
Well, now returning back to the United States and the expected political drama set to unfold at the Republican National Convention in Wisconsin next
week. In many ways, the battleground state tells a story of the evolution of the GOP there. Republicans swinging more and more to the right to a
full-on embrace of Donald Trump's MAGA policies.
A close observer of this has been Charlie Sykes, founder of The Bulwark and a respected voice among never Trump Republicans. He joined Walter Isaacson
to discuss it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Bianna. And, Charlie Sykes, welcome back to the show.
CHARLIE SYKES, FOUNDER AND FORMER EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE BULWARK: Thank you.
ISAACSON: Hey, you know, right after the debate that Biden had down in Atlanta, the problematic one, you said -- you wrote that the Biden White
House needs an intervention because this can't go on. And you said there's no way to spin it away. It wasn't just a bad night or a gap, it was a
disaster. Do you still feel that way?
SYKES: Yes, I do. But of course, there's been a lot of things that have happened since then. And, you know, at that moment, it was very clear that
Joe Biden had to do several things. I mean, he was going to have to convince his party and the public that he was up to it, that he was up to
actually beating Donald Trump in November, which I think is clearly the priority. But also, I think he's also got to answer the questions about
whether he is fit to serve for another four years.
And, you know, to do that, he is going to have to give more long form interviews like he did with George Stephanopoulos, you know, hold these
live press conferences like he did on Thursday and also have transparent and credible medical information, because, I guess, you know, my take on
all of this is that if, in fact, Democrats believe, as I do, that Donald Trump poses an existential threat to our constitutional Republican system,
then they need to ask really tough questions about Joe Biden. And obviously, that's been what's been happening for the last two weeks.
ISAACSON: You're up there in Milwaukee. You started your political journalism career almost 50 years ago in Wisconsin. You're kind of a
Wisconsin guy. The Republican Convention next week will be in this town of Milwaukee. Tell me right now, would Biden be able to win Wisconsin?
SYKES: Well, things are in flux. I mean, I remember October 7, 2016 where Hillary Clinton was clearly on path to a landslide victory, and that, of
course, did not happen. Right now, I mean, in a snapshot, Republicans are coming to Milwaukee supremely confident. They think that Donald Trump is
going to win. They don't believe that Joe Biden can win.
Now, a lot can happen between now and November. But I have to say that I can't recall a time when Republicans were feeling more optimistic than they
are right now adding to the bizarre nature of this bizarre political year.
ISAACSON: What's making it so bizarre?
SYKES: Well, everything. I mean, look, I mean, we keep saying to ourselves that there's nothing normal about Donald Trump, and there's certainly is
not. There is no norms that have not either been shattered or that are being challenged. I mean, the fact that we are sitting here today having a
discussion about a presidential race between a convicted felon, a twice impeached, disgraced man who has been found liable for sexual assault, and
he's facing a man whose own party is asking questions about his cognitive abilities.
I mean, this is a great nation that does feel like it's sort of, you know, on the precipice. And we're dealing with these two men that are so
supremely challenged. But again, what Donald Trump represents is something very much outside the mainstream of American politics.
[13:35:00]
ISAACSON: Yes, tell me about that, because you were a Republican, you've been part of the Republican Never Trump faction. How is it that the party,
and your party in Wisconsin, which used to be led by people like Paul Ryan and Reince Priebus. How did this happen in the Republican Party?
SYKES: Well, Walter, you and I have discussed this in the past, and I have to say that after nine years, it is still vertiginous to watch what has
happened, particularly here in Wisconsin. I mean, the Wisconsin Republican Party was very skeptical of Donald Trump in 2016. You'll remember that he
was defeated in the primary. He lost by double digits to Ted Cruz of all people. Not because people like Ted Cruz, but because Wisconsin Republicans
looked at Donald Trump and said, no, this is not what we have in mind. This is not the kind of conservatism that we have.
So, there was a moment back in, say, 2015, I believe, when Wisconsin Republicans really thought they were the wave of the future. You know,
Reince Priebus was chairman of the Republican National Committee, Paul Ryan was speaker of the House of Representatives, Scott Walker was a candidate
for president. And think about where they've come since then. So, we've seen this transformation of the Republican Party everywhere, but it's
really dramatic here in Wisconsin.
ISAACSON: Why did the Republican voters, why did the people of Wisconsin so strongly end up being in Trump's, you call it, tribe?
SYKES: Well, I mean, that obviously is the most difficult question. What is it about the electorate in places like Wisconsin? I mean, this is like a
reasonable place. We're not talking about places that had been MAGA for years. This is a state that has seen reform Republicans that has not always
gone along. This is a state that Barack Obama won twice.
And the question is, what did they see? I think it was a combination of push and pull. I think it was a combination of disillusionment and
disaffection from what they saw as a Democratic Party that was no longer talking to them. But also, there was something about Donald Trump's
approach to immigration and other issues that appealed to them. He touched something that I think had been blatant in Republican conservatism for a
long time.
And I will admit that I did not necessarily see that coming. You know, I thought that the party was going in a very, very different direction.
Donald Trump had a sort of lizardry instinct that, in fact, he could tap into these resentments and this fear, this sense that the forgotten
American was being victimized, was being exploited, and he tapped into that in a very, very successful way.
ISAACSON: You wrote about it a bit, and you have a sentence that was very striking. You wrote that, on the stump, Trump freely rewrites history,
peddles bizarre conspiracy theories, and aggressively memory-holes the darker parts of his record. Thus far, it's been working.
Is that because it resonates with resentments among people you've covered for 50 years in Wisconsin, as well as around the country?
SYKES: Walter, let, let me say something that I know is somewhat uncommon. I am still trying to figure this out. I think this is the most bizarre
question of our bizarre times. Why is this working? It's one thing for politicians to lie to people and to mislead people, but we're also seeing a
politician who lies so easily. And a large segment of the electorate either doesn't understand that they're being lied to or frankly, and this is
actually more disturbing, doesn't care about it.
And so, I think this is a reflection of like, what is happening in American culture in our information ecosystem? What's happening to the way that we
process information or that we approach politics, that this is happening? And I still find it amazing every day. I mean, I think that, you know, for
people who think that they've taken crazy pills every morning, look, you're not the crazy ones, because you look at Donald Trump and he's spouting
these things and then you turn the camera to the crowd and they're eating it up and they're like it.
And Donald Trump understands this. He understood something that none of us saw coming when he said, I could shoot somebody in the middle of 5th Avenue
and I wouldn't lose any votes. Now, what did he see that I think a lot of mainstream observers did not see, there is something broken in the American
political culture that this is happening.
And I think part of it is that people like me, probably people like you, thought that politics was about ideas, about policies, about legacies, when
in fact, turns out that politics, for a lot of Americans, is about identity. It's also perhaps about just giving a big middle finger to the
people that they think don't care about them or look down on them.
[13:40:00]
ISAACSON: One of the things that seems to me to be driving both in the United States, but even around the world, the populist backlash, has been a
reaction to immigration. And I notice that in the Republican platform, which has toned down a bit, one of the things not really toned down is
you're going to seal the border and massive deportations. Leaving aside Canada, Wisconsin is the furthest you can be from a border state.
SYKES: Yes.
ISAACSON: How does that resonate in Wisconsin and why?
SYKES: You know, this is a really interesting question, because up until 2016, immigration was never a big issue here in Wisconsin. In fact, I used
to have a radio talk show, and I remember one day opening up the phone lines and saying, I want to talk to dairy farmers in Wisconsin. How do you
feel about immigration? And the overwhelming reaction from Wisconsin dairy farmers is, we need immigration. We need people on our farms.
So, it was, we're not a border state. But there is this sense, and it's been fed by Donald Trump and his supporters, and their allies in the media
that this country is under attack, that it is under invasion, that you have brown people coming across the borders and they're coming for your jobs and
your women. They're causing crime. And it is that sense of menace.
So, what they've done is they've created immigration from being an engine of economic development and opportunity to a threat, to an imminent threat.
And that has obviously -- that's going to be a major theme of the campaign and it's one of the driving forces behind Donald Trump right now.
ISAACSON: One of the discussions we've had for a long while is whether the border or abortion would be the most cutting or salient issue. Abortion
probably helping the Democrats up. You once ran on a pro-life platform in Wisconsin. Tell me, how does abortion play both in Wisconsin and will it be
a factor around the country in this election?
SYKES: Yes. No, I was very much part of the pro-life movement, but had been very disillusioned by the way that the pro-life movement is handled
Roe v. Wade, I mean, I'm sorry it's a cliche now, but they were the car -- I mean, they were the dog that caught the car. The fact that they were not
prepared for creating a culture of life that would encourage families and mothers, and children I think is a major lapse on the part of the pro-life
movement. And instead, they've emphasized very extreme and punitive measures.
But I think that in Wisconsin, abortion will play the way it plays the rest of the country. We had a -- in fact, it's already had a tremendous impact
here. This is a very evenly divided state. But a liberal Supreme Court candidate who ran on Roe versus Wade won by a landslide here in Wisconsin.
So, that should be a really salient issue.
In a state like Wisconsin the -- I do think that abortion is going to be more significant than immigration. But again, we're a very, very evenly
divided state. And can I just say something about the immigration issue that I think has been underappreciated? And I don't know how this plays in
Wisconsin, but I think that if the issue is, should we toughen the border and, you know, have more enforcement? I think there's going to be a lot of
support for that. That that's not going to be necessarily a massive wedge issue.
But one of the things that Donald Trump is pledging and that is in the Project 2025 and in the Republican platform and has been endorsed by other
Republicans, is the mass deportation of illegal immigrants. Now, there's so much going on, it's sort of easy to pass that over, and I guess I sort of
want to pause and go, wait, you are talking about forcefully deporting 10 million people from this country.
I guess, if people begin to focus on that, if they begin to ask exactly how are you going to do that, what kind of roundups are we going to have? Is
the military going to do that? Will police officers do that? Will there be detention camps? Will we be putting people in buses, in trains? How do you
move 10 million people? Because potentially that will be one of the great humanitarian disasters of our time. And yet, we really haven't litigated
that and debated that very much.
I mean, is something like that, perhaps it's just Donald Trump is saying it because it's the symbolism. It's like the law. But this has real world
consequences, and I just don't think -- I don't feel it's gotten as much attention as it deserves.
ISAACSON: Who do you think Trump should choose as his running mate?
SYKES: Well, I am somewhat interested in this question because if Donald - - if you woke up Donald Trump at 3:00 and said, who do you want your vice- presidential nominee to be? I think he would say Ivanka or Don Jr. Because he understands that that person immediately becomes a power center in the
second Trump presidency, because in theory, he's a lame duck president. He also knows that that is the one person he cannot fire.
[13:45:00]
So, Donald Trump is haunted by the ghost of Mike Pence, that Mike Pence, who was loyal until he wasn't loyal, who actually had enough principle and
an -- you know, a streak of independence that he was willing to say no. So, Donald Trump is looking for someone who will never say no to him, who will
never threaten him, who will never overshadow him. So, I don't know what he's going to do, but it's going to be a very revealing choice.
And obviously, given the fact that he would be term limited out, that person becomes an immediate candidate for president, which again, Donald
Trump may see as something of a threat. So, I'm expecting that he will name someone low key, but again, I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time in
Donald Trump's head.
ISAACSON: As a long-time conservative, if Joe Biden remains the nominee of the Democratic Party, are you going to vote for him?
SYKES: Oh, look, I've made it absolutely clear that I will, you know, walk through fire and crawl through glass to vote for anyone who would beat
Donald Trump. So, yes, I mean, I'm going to do that.
Well, let me tell you where I come from on that. I don't believe the 2024 is about re-electing Joe Biden. I mean, he -- let's concede that he's had a
successful presidency, but re-nomination, re-election is not a gold watch. 2024 is about preventing Donald Trump from regaining power.
So, I will vote for anyone who will prevent Donald Trump from getting back in the White House, whatever the circumstances, no matter how reluctantly,
because I think that that is the key. And I think that's the way that voters need to think about it, is that if, in fact, Donald Trump does post
this existential threat, then it will be a binary choice, and it might feel good to indulge oneself by writing someone in, but in a state like
Wisconsin, that election will be won either by Donald Trump or by Joe Biden, or whoever the Democrats nominate. So, that's not a hard choice for
me.
ISAACSON: The Republican Convention starts next week. What are you going to be watching for?
SYKES: For me, the most difficult part of watching this will be watching Republicans bow their knees or applaud for the most extreme and outlandish
positions, positions that never would have been taken by a Republican Party, a Republican Party that claimed it was for law and order that is now
going to embrace a convicted felon, the party of Ronald Reagan that is going to be cheering speakers who will talk about abandoning Ukraine.
I wonder whether or not there will be people who will stand up and say, OK, we're going to support Donald Trump, but we're not going to abandon NATO,
or we're not going to go along with some of these extreme positions here.
You know, I think one of the things that has been the most disillusioning over the last nine years has not just been the bowing of the knee to Donald
Trump, but it's been the willingness to change principles, to change positions that people have held through their whole lives because that's
what they need to continue to be with the tribe.
Will there be any indication whatsoever that this party wants to reach out to centrist voters or will this just be a doubling down? And unfortunately,
this convention takes place in the shadow of the turmoil that's going on in the Democratic Party. So, this is, again, going to be a very optimistic,
very aggressive, very triumphalistic Republican Party. This will be the gathering of the party that is absolutely confident that they will be in
power next year.
So, it's going to be interesting to see how they respond to that. Do they figure that -- you know, that because they are in a position to win this
election, they should moderate and reach out to swing voters in places like Wisconsin, or will they see this as a ratification of everything that they
have been doing since January 6th and double down?
So, I'm going to be very interested to see how much and how willing they are to litigate the 2020 election, how they will react to all of that, and
how much they'll talk about the future, because I'm not sure how they will balance that.
ISAACSON: Charlie Sykes, thank you for joining us.
SYKES: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: A reminder of the high stakes at next week's U.S. Republican Convention. And finally, for us, tension -- attention will be palpable on
Wimbledon's center court this Saturday. That's when first time finalists Jasmine Paolini and Barbora Krejcikova will battle it out for timeless
women's singles glory.
Whoever wins will be standing on the shoulders of giants, particularly those of Billie Jean King, who not only won a record 20 career titles
there, but also fought tirelessly for equal rights for women.
[13:50:00]
Last summer, King spoke with Christiane about the aftermath of her 1975 win at Wimbledon and the emotional challenges athletes face on and off the
court.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILLIE JEAN KING, WTA FOUNDER AND FORMER TENNIS CHAMPION: I had just won Wimbledon and I announced my retirement because everyone around me -- I was
listening too much others on this and not my own heart and soul. And that is they said, you should go out on top.
You know, everyone -- athletes hear this all the time, go out on top. You know that's the way to go. Well, I was -- I could've won actually some more
singles as well because I was practicing with Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova and they're going, why did you retire? You beating us in
practice. You're ridiculous.
So, I've probably should've played at least one, maybe two more years of singles. But I did come back and played doubles and then played some
singles as well, but it was --
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And got more titles when you came back?
KING: Not really in singles.
AMANPOUR: But in double you did? Yes.
KING: Because I came back in '77, '78. But '76, I definitely could have one some more.
AMANPOUR: How difficult is it for women on the tour? I'm asking you because, obviously, you had, you know, a whole load of issues, everything.
I mean, even eating disorders and the whole thing. I mean, you had a lot of pressure on you as well. And today, we are hearing and seeing and listening
to more and more female players. We don't really hear it from the male players.
KING: Men don't speak up because the media don't ask them enough, OK? We're all -- women are always asked a lot more personal questions than the
men, which gets irritating. Because 85 percent of the men are in communications and in media, they tend to hold back for the guys because
they feel it's about how they feel as a male.
AMANPOUR: You're talking about the male journalists?
KING: Absolutely. Male journalists protect, they don't mean to, it's just who they are.
AMANPOUR: It's just a natural bias.
KING: Right. That's right. The way we're socialized. So, we're always asked about our sexuality, all our personal stuff and the men never were. I
would also, like men, if they're gay to come out, I wished, you know, would have the courage to do that. But do you know how hard it is for guys, you
know, if you come out like that? You know, think of the locker room? I mean --
AMANPOUR: Yes. But there --
KING: -- it's relentless.
AMANPOUR: -- are plenty of sports now where men are coming out. But --
KING: What about tennis?
AMANPOUR: Not yet, obviously. Do you think --
KING: Hello?
AMANPOUR: -- male tennis players -- why, are you saying there are?
KING: I don't know. But there -- I would think one or two must be. I don't know though. I have no idea.
AMANPOUR: But do you think or do you know that male tennis players have the kind of mental health issues that we have heard from Naoma Osaka and
recently from Emma Raducanu and others?
KING: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
AMANPOUR: But they don't talk about it?
KING: What's his name? Kyrgios just talked about how he's had depression and all that.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
KING: But now, it's OK to talk about these things, and that's wonderful I think that's fantastic. I mean, during the tour I was told by sponsors if I
said anything -- because I was going through -- I can't figure out who how I was. They said, if you say anything about your confusion or what's going
on in your heart and soul that we -- you -- we will not have a tour.
Now, I am given that type of information, do you think that I'm going to say anything? Of course, I'm not. We've got the tour. This is not about me,
this is about everybody. So, no.
AMANPOUR: So, last week, Emma Raducanu, of course who shot to fame, you awarded her her trophy --
KING: Yes, I did. It was such an honor.
AMANPOUR: -- at the U.S. Open. Yes, 2021. She was only 18. And she struggled so much since to perform. She's had injuries. And now, she'd come
out and described the tour as completely brutal. She told "The Sunday Times" here, I've realized in the past two years, the tour and everything
that comes with it, it's not very nice, trusting or safe space. You have to be on guard because there are a lot of sharks out there. It has been really
hard. It is a lot harder when you're making mistakes in front of everyone and everyone has something to say about it.
What's your reaction to that? I mean, do you recognize the brutal tour?
KING: And being a pro athlete is hard. The WTA has been fantastic with mental health for years. People would say, why aren't you doing anything?
Of course we are doing things, but we have to keep it private. This is about private issues with each player.
I used to talk to the Catherine Australia (ph) who is the head of health services, ad nauseam, what's going to happen in the future, how will we
make it better, how do we help with all of this? We have psychologist. Believe me, since the '80s and '90s, the WTA has been on this. We have
psychologists, whatever you need, OK, they are there. But you've got to keep it private.
AMANPOUR: Why?
KING: Because whatever what the person wants. It's all about the --
AMANPOUR: Oh, you have to keep it private? So, you don't mind --
KING: No, the WTA does.
AMANPOUR: OK.
KING: Oh, no. I think it's wonderful when they talk about it. I encourage it. I mean, I went to an eating disorder place. I have a psychologist. I
totally believe in all of this. No. But I just want everyone to know the WTA has been aware of it.
AMANPOUR: But why do they -- why does someone like Emma say its brutal or even Naomi Osaka? A lot of it goes to the haranguing they get in the press
room afterwards.
KING: Is that what they say? I don't know.
AMANPOUR: Well, I've heard that. I've heard --
[13:55:00]
KING: I know, but what do they expect? I wish -- OK. It is going to be difficult, but you've chosen to be a professional athlete. With that goes
certain things that you will have to look at. It's competitive. You have to ask for help if you need it.
See, I don't think a lot of athletes were -- you know, we're used to, you know, stiff upper lip (ph), be tough. No. On the court, maybe. But off the
court, if you need help, ask for what you need. Girls are socialized not to do that. Have you ever noticed that girls have a hard time to ask for what
they want and what they need? And they need to step up and ask for it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Wow. Quite a powerful conversation between the two of them. Well, that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from
New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
