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Interview with Van Ness Feldman LLP Senior Policy Adviser Former Senator Mary Landrieu (D-LA); Interview with American Enterprise Institute Emeritus Scholar Norman Ornstein; Interview with Personal Attorney for President Biden and "The Unraveling" Author Bob Bauer; Interview with Publisher of "The Bulwark," Host of "The Focus Group" Podcast and Executive Director of Republican Voters Against Trump Sarah Longwell. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 22, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to AMANPOUR. Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Joe Biden's legacy of accomplishment over the past three years is unmatched in modern history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: A political earthquake in America after Biden bows out. So, what happens now? We'll bring you the latest and get insight from election
expert Norm Ornstein.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB BAUER, PERSONAL ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN AND AUTHOR, "THE UNRAVELING": That decision yesterday, a decision to step out of the
campaign and to focus on governing is a leadership decision and it needs to be understood that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- inside Biden world. The president's personal lawyer, Bob Bauer, talks to Walter Isaacson about this unprecedented moment.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am still a little bit on the fence myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- what Americans want. Focus group expert Sarah Longwell tells me what she's hearing from swing voters.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
The world's attention turns to Kamala Harris after President Biden's Sunday surprise. The announcement that he's dropping out of the race and endorsing
her to succeed him. The vice president made her first public remarks today. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Joe Biden's legacy of accomplishment over the past three years is unmatched in modern history. His honesty, his
integrity, his commitment to his faith and his family, his big heart and his love, deep love of our country. And I am firsthand witness that every
day our President Joe Biden fights for the American people, and we are deeply, deeply grateful for his service to our nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Well, endorsements for the VP are coming in fast and furious from heavyweight Democrats, including potential rivals, who had hoped a
Candidate Harris is their best chance to defeat Donald Trump in November. There appears to be little appetite for a contested convention, and so far,
no one else has announced their candidacy.
So, how will these crucial weeks unfold? Let's go now to former Louisiana Senator Mary Landrieu, who joins us now. Thank you so much for joining us,
Senator. As someone who sat for nearly two decades in the Senate, I'm wondering -- you have a bird's eye view, you still talk to these players.
Tell us the internal reaction to this decision overnight from the president. On the one hand, not much of a surprise, still a huge game
changer in terms of where this race stands.
FMR. Sen. MARY LANDRIEU (D-LA), SENIOR POLICY ADVISER, VAN NESS FELDMAN LLP: Well, it's been an exciting 24 hours. And most and many, many people
that I talked to are so grateful to President Biden for his extraordinary leadership, a really unusual act of humility and courage.
Clearly, in his DNA, he has always been that kind of leader, amazing, you know, thinking forward, putting himself behind the needs and future of the
country. So, it's been a really exciting time for so many leaders that I've talked to in the last 24 hours.
GOLODRYGA: And you've seen not only the endorsements of Renewed Energy, but also just $50 million in grassroots donations overnight, and obviously
big donors are saying that they are lining up in full support as well, assuming that she will indeed be the nominee. How important is it, in your
view, regarding who she picks as her vice-presidential running mate, especially given the crucial swing states that are a must win here?
LANDRIEU: Well, that will be an important signal to see how Vice President Harris, who I have every confidence in, will be an extraordinary leader for
our country, to see if she can really build, not just the base of our support, but reach to the center, reach to dissatisfied Republicans who
have signaled that they are looking for an alternative, someone that can express, and I think she can most certainly, and with the right running
mate, paint a picture of the future in which all Americans, all Americans believe that they have part in our economic future.
That is really what the heart of this election is about. It's so many Americans have failed to be able to see themselves as part of an economic
future. Joe Biden has done a remarkable job in the last three years to turn around what's been a very tough 20 years in this country for middle class
voters of all shapes, sizes, and colors.
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Now, Kamala Harris knows this. Vice President Harris knows this. So, she's going to pick, I'm sure, a running mate that can express the vision for the
future. You know, the arc of history is supporting her. And on the other side, we have Donald Trump standing, you know, on a sandcastle of lies and
deceptions. So, this country is ready, as always, to move forward to the future with our allies, you know, with a hope for the future, and that's
what she brings.
GOLODRYGA: Well, her candidacy really eliminates a big issue for this administration that President Biden had been facing, and that is one of age
and not looking backwards to his achievements over the past three and a half years. But just given his age and questions now, following that
devastating debate performance, whether he could serve another four years. Well, that now all changes with Donald Trump being the oldest president
candidate now on record.
But that doesn't change how many Americans feel about the state of things right now, specifically the economy. And given that she is so closely
aligned with President Biden, despite what the numbers are saying that the economy is strong, as you know, many Americans don't feel that way. What
can she do now to change that and stand on her own while at the same time still being a vice president to President Biden?
LANDRIEU: Well, first of all, it's not just Donald Trump's age that's a problem, it's his criminal behavior. And the fact that he has done nothing
but lie and cheat his way into the White House initially and then try to cheat the election from Joe Biden when Joe Biden won it four years ago.
So, now, his voters are concerned, just like Democratic voters and Republican voters are concerned about, do we have a future in this
capitalistic economy where many people seem to be getting rich, but our families seem to be left behind? Women who have had to go to work, some of
them because they want to, some because they had to, without enough childcare and support. These are real issues. I think Vice President Harris
understands this.
These problems did not start three years ago. And President Biden did a remarkable job to turn the ship around with the IRA, with the Chips Act,
restoring manufacturing in America, but nothing can be done in four years. I mean, nothing of a complete turnaround, but he has started to turn the
ship around, and I think she can continue to build on what he has done by picking a good, strong, you know, running mate and then building on the
support of many Democrats, Republicans, and Independents in this country who do not want to see Donald Trump in the Oval Office again and who
believe in a brighter future for America.
GOLODRYGA: We should note that your brother, Mitch Landrieu, the former mayor of New Orleans, is a senior adviser to President Biden and has been
whispered, maybe not even louder than a whisper, his name has been thrown out as well as somebody who could be a future Democratic president and
leader of this country. Obviously, that's not the case this time, but I'm just curious your -- his reaction. Have you spoken with him since this news
from the president yesterday and how he feels about how the president is doing right now? We should know we have yet to hear from him publicly and
his endorsement of the vice president.
LANDRIEU: Well, I haven't heard from Mitch, but that's not unusual. His heart and soul was completely committed to President Biden, and I know he
has a strong and good relationship with Vice President Harris. But let me just say that, yes, Mitch is an extraordinary leader, and I say that not
just because he's my brother, but because I hear that from many of my colleagues, Republicans and Democrats, who have had the great pleasure of
working with him as he tries to build out the economic future of our country. So, he may be considered, you know, as a vice presidential
candidate.
But let me just say, we have a lot of talent in our party. I could go down a strong list of men and women ready to step up and lead our country
forward. We do not want to go back to the 1800s like Donald Trump pretends we do. Women are not going to go back and sit in, you know, some sort of
subservient position in this nation. We want to be able to have access to our reproductive freedom, our liberty, and to have justice in this country.
And that is what I think Vice President Harris is going to be fighting for.
I've been endorsing her now. I sent word to her earlier today. My strong support is with her. And I've already talked to many, many leaders from
Louisiana and around the country that are going to stand for the future, a just and fair future, and a prosperous future for all Americans.
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GOLODRYGA: It's really an unprecedented moment. There are two previous cases, President Truman and obviously LBJ, who withdrew their candidacy,
that had to do mostly with foreign wars and concerns about their own health. But it was done much earlier in the campaign. We are just three and
a half months away from the election, just weeks away from the Democratic Convention.
I'm wondering, in your view, how soon do we need to hear from President Biden and his speech in announcement before the American people, obviously
going into more detail and what we read from that statement posted on Twitter. We understand he's convalescing and sick now with COVID, but it is
clear that the time is of the essence here, and she doesn't have that much time before she really starts campaigning in earnest. And I think you'd
agree she probably can't do that until we have the president address the nation.
LANDRIEU: No, I don't -- I disagree with that. I think the wheels have already been turning in motion. I mean, this move is really fast these
days, and she is not an unknown quantity to the American people. She's been vice president for four years. She served many years in California as a
prosecutor. She's been a United States senator. We've seen her on the domestic stage. We've seen her on the international stage. So, she is a
known quantity and very, very respected.
And it's quite exciting to see this day. She could potentially be the first woman president of the United States. But she has a great combination of
being able to run on the solid record of Joe Biden to be able to go head- to-head with Donald Trump, who, again, is just all about lies and deceit and he has no respect for the rule of law, and I think the American people
are really tired of it, and they do not want to see that leadership in our country.
So, she just has to steady the ship, move forward. We have plenty of time. Literally, we have plenty of time. I mean, today, in 24 hours, you can, you
know, tell the whole world what you -- or what you're thinking, not like the old days when it did take a year or so to campaign. So, she's building
tremendous support.
And again, I want to just thank President Biden. He -- not many people have beat an incumbent president. He did that. Very few presidents have passed
the kind of legislation that he passed in a very difficult polarized time. He's going to go down in history as one of the greatest leaders and most
courageous and a combination, as I said, of courage and humility, which you cannot find anywhere in the Trump family or Trump himself.
And so, I really am grateful, and so many of us are for President Biden and the work that he's done, and we look forward to him being part of the team
going forward.
GOLODRYGA: We've seen some of her weaker moments and stumbles early on in this administration, specifically when addressing the issue of border
security, and she really fumbled an interview with NBC at the time, but we've also seen areas of strength as well, in particular, women's
reproductive rights. And she's really seemed to own that issue.
How important is it, in your view, especially appealing to undecided women voters to Middle America, Suburban America, that this is an issue that she
takes a lot in, as far as priority in, and will continue to cover?
LANDRIEU: Well, first of all, the person that fumbled the most on the border and immigration was Donald Trump himself. The members of Congress
had come together in a very tough situation, and negotiated a great deal, a great compromise to get our border secure, to close the loopholes, to
provide more border security. And you know who scuttled that plan? Nobody but Donald Trump. He's the one that should be running for the hills on this
matter.
She most certainly has a good record. Now, everybody can make a mistake in an interview or a debate. That's not what you need to look at. You need to
look at somebody's positions and their ability to express a bright future for this country. And I promise you, Vice President Harris understands this
as a woman, as a human being, as a person that has defended the underdogs in most of her life. And she knows how the American people are hurting.
She's not insensitive to that.
We understand the economic pain. Polls of -- when we went too fast for globalization. We cut out a lot of good jobs here in America, but Joe Biden
is bringing them back and she can continue that record. Meanwhile, all Donald Trump does is stir up trouble, offers no real solutions. And does it
in a very, you know, disrespectful way to the American public and to our constitution.
So, I'm, you know, excited, so is everyone. I mean, the money's rolling in from small donors and large donors alike and lots of compliments, again, to
the president for -- you know, for being a true statesman.
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GOLODRYGA: Yes, quite a contrast. We're seeing an enthusiasm and real dollars coming in from just 48 hours ago to where we are right now. Mary
Landrieu, thank you so much for joining us.
LANDRIEU: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Let's now turn to Norman Ornstein who has studied America's political system deeply and joins the program from Washington. Norm,
listen, one day after the next, another shocker -- another shocking development here, and we're only in July.
First of all, again, on the one hand, perhaps not a surprise, but you saw the reaction on Sunday once that statement came out from the president. And
then, a few minutes later, the endorsement of his vice president for the candidacy and the nomination. Your reaction to what's transpired in the
last 24 hours.
NORMAN ORNSTEIN, EMERITUS SCHOLAR, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: So, I think I share what an awful lot of other people do, which is relief. And
relief as much as anything that we're past this incredible moment of tension that simply couldn't last, Bianna. The idea that you have an
increasing number of prominent Democrats, elected officials saying that the president should withdraw from the race and the president saying, I'm in
this until the end, was a formula for utter disaster.
So, once that happened, you could just feel the relief around the country from Democrats and a belief that now they can pivot and change to something
very different. It's also, as I was talking to many, you know, Chicago, where the convention is, of course, brings back memories for many of us,
really vivid memories of 1968, a catastrophic convention for Democrats that almost certainly cost them the presidency. Hubert Humphrey got the
nomination. But he came very close to winning. And if it weren't for the deep divisions that were demonstrated at that convention, we would have had
very likely a different outcome.
Now, Democrats can go from a convention filled with tension to one where, first, you're going to see probably a rapturous response to Joe Biden when
he arrives there to give his speech, maybe greater than we've seen for any leader before. And then, you're going to see a unified Democratic Party.
And that's an unusual thing these days, but certainly, after the last couple of months.
Now, we have a different race and a reset. And of course, it will present a lot of additional twists and turns, and we're not done with the surprises
yet, but it's a very different environment.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and it's still a very, very close race. And given polling, again, prior to this announcement on Sunday, just hypothetically, how a
Candidate Harris would stand versus Donald Trump, it is still very close, and she still trailed him in some important swing states. I'm wondering now
if it's at base level, where you're seeing Kamala Harris start off -- excuse me -- where Joe Biden probably was polling before that debate, how
much work does she have ahead of her to really reintroduce herself to Americans and improve her standing at a time? And as you heard in my
conversation with the senator, there really is a sentiment for a large part of the country that it's not headed in the right direction.
ORNSTEIN: No question. And, you know, to put it in simple terms to start, there are two ways in which this election could be framed. One is, it's a
referendum on Biden and, by extension, the Biden presidency. And despite all those incredible accomplishments, which are now being recounted more
than they were before Biden withdrew, you got a whole lot of Americans, as you say, Bianna, who are just not satisfied. If that's the standing that we
have out there, if that's the frame, Democrats have a lot to overcome.
But if instead this is reframed as an election about decency, integrity, democracy, and along with that, women's reproductive freedom, Democrats are
on much stronger ground.
GOLODRYGA: But is this --
ORNSTEIN: For Kamala Harris.
GOLODRYGA: Is this an election about decency and democracy?
ORNSTEIN: We're not there yet, but it wasn't going to be with Joe Biden staying in the race. And now, there's an opportunity for Democrats and
Kamala Harris to do that. But I think, you know, there's an additional challenge for her, which right now, for the next few weeks, is to try and
define herself before what we know is going to happen, which is $100 or $200 million being spent, some of it dark money, some of it very overt,
like Elon Musk's $45 million a month to the Trump effort, that will be moving to define her in a very different way, to really slime her and
define her as somebody who's unfit.
[13:20:00]
We see a lot of that now with the idea that she is a DEI candidate. We're going to see a lot of stuff like that. We also know that while most people
don't have much of a clue about Kamala Harris, as they don't about most vice presidents after a while, it did not start out well. To whatever
degree she has an image, it hasn't been a particularly positive one. And now, she has, I think, a chance to turn that around.
And she has to do a couple of things. First is, she has to get a Democratic base excited. That was not the case before. And now, we're seeing signs of
it. That includes people of color and younger voters, younger progressives. Still a lot of work to do there. And Muslim Americans with the Gaza
situation. And she has to reach out to those college educated suburban voters, Republicans and independents who aren't real happy with Donald
Trump.
You know, some of them we have the pollsters calling them double haters. They didn't like Biden. They didn't like Trump. Now, they're single haters
and it's a question of whether Kamala Harris can keep them from becoming Harris haters before others try to do that.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and we'll talk about the double haters later on this hour with Sarah Longwell. But I do want to ask you to weigh in on an argument
that people like Ezra Klein have been making, and that is that Kamala Harris has been underappreciated over the past three years in this
administration and hasn't been actually utilized in her -- to her full capacity, and that the times have changed from when she first joined this
ticket in 2020 to where things stand right now. And then perhaps some of the awkwardness.
I mean, listen, I'm reading a headline on "The Economist" here. Kamala Harris lacks charisma and time. People like Ezra Klein argue that one of
those reasons is that we haven't been allowed -- or she hasn't been allowed to show her true self. And that is a tough on crime prosecutor that perhaps
on certain issues is more right of center than she has been portrayed. And that now is an opportunity to her -- for her to really shine a light on her
past achievements and her own personal views on certain policies. How do you react to that?
ORNSTEIN: I think that's true in many respects. I will say that I thought she missed an opportunity early on in the Biden presidency when he gave her
the two portfolios of the border and democracy and the reaction that I heard from her staff was, why are we getting the tough things? That's what
you want as a vice president to show that you're presidential. And she took a while to seize those.
She has come on, I think, much stronger in the last year. The tricky part of this is that you can show your differences only up to a certain point
because you are still the vice president to Joe Biden who will be there until January 20th. You cannot begin to frame a different set of policies
that will contradict that of your own president. So, she has to tread carefully here and be a little more sensitive to those realities.
Having said that, I actually think if you watched her out on the stump, she has some charisma. She is able to really capture crowds. She's very strong,
articulate, she is able to take on issues and to take on Donald Trump. And if you've watched her, for example, now doing the post Dobbs portfolio,
which has been hers, she has been very, very strong.
I think one of the problems though, just circling back to what you said, you're going to see Republicans and their allies criticize her in the black
community and elsewhere for being too tough on criminals. And then, you'll see them going back to other audiences and saying she was too soft as a
prosecutor. You know, every case that she took there, every action she took in the Senate, all of the stories and the some of them rumors about her
relationship with Willie Brown, who was her mentor, and they had a romantic relationship for a while in San Francisco, trying to portray her in a
different way.
She has to try to keep off the defensive and define herself. That is key, I think, up to the convention and in the weeks that follow it. If she can get
a little armor of protection against the attacks that you know are coming, she'll be in a stronger place.
GOLODRYGA: And who does that armor of protection come from?
ORNSTEIN: Well, I think it has to come mostly from her, but also from her allies, and clearly, to some degree, from whoever gets chosen to be her
running mate. She has a lot of good possibilities there. And she'll want to have somebody who can take on some of the attack at both Donald Trump and
J. D. Vance. Somebody who can protect her and move some of the incoming away from her. That's going to be a part of what we'll see in the running
mate choice, which I don't know whether we'll get it far before the convention. I would expect it'll happen fairly soon.
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GOLODRYGA: And obviously, these battleground states are key for a win for Harris. They were -- that was a case for Biden as well. You've got
Michigan, you've got Wisconsin, and you've got Pennsylvania where you -- really, there's no alternative if you don't win there, alternative path.
How significant is it then for her to take into account who she picks as her VP pick?
ORNSTEIN: So, I will say that, you know, one of the reasons that Joe Biden, I think, decided that he shouldn't continue is that we saw states
that had been in the Democrats camp, New Hampshire, Minnesota, turning in a very difficult direction. Now, I think those are back, and she does have to
focus on that big three, as you say.
The difficulty there is that it's not clear how much a vice presidential running mate really helps with the state. I do think one exception to that
would be Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania, who's extremely popular there. I also think that Mark Kelly, the senator from Arizona, with
a storied background and career as a military man and astronaut married to Gabby Giffords and going through that trauma with her would help in
Arizona. Although, you then have a Senate seat that would have to go to another Democrat for two years before that seat is up.
So, you might find a couple that will help there, but there are broader considerations as well as just helping in one state.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we should find out who that pick would be in the coming days. Norm Ornstein stay tuned. Fasten your seatbelts. We're only in July,
as we've said. Thank you so much.
ORNSTEIN: Thanks.
GOLODRYGA: Well, now, for many, Joe Biden's historic decision became a foregone conclusion following his disastrous debate performance last month.
What was meant to be an opportunity to allay age related fears instead became a wakeup call for top Democrats to urge the president to step aside.
Central to the preparation for that debate was a member of Biden's inner circle, his personal lawyer, Bob Bauer, who took on the role of Trump in
practice sessions.
He joins Walter Isaacson to discuss his new political memoir, "The Unraveling," Biden's legacy, and what he's learned from decades as the
Democrats go-to legal mastermind.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Bianna. And, Bob Bauer, welcome to the show.
BOB BAUER, PERSONAL ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN AND AUTHOR, "THE UNRAVELING": Thank you for having me.
ISAACSON: You are very close over the years to President Biden. You've been his personal lawyer. Your wife, Anita Dunn, has been a senior adviser.
You know how he makes decisions. You know what he stands for and what he's pushing for. Tell me how his sense -- your sense of his legacy, his
political drive, how that all played into the decision he made this weekend.
BAUER: I certainly recognize that Joe Biden, that I think many people have seen over the years, who is an institutionalist deeply committed to
constitutional values. And he came to a conclusion that it was in the best interest of the country that at this time he focused on governing and set
aside from the campaign.
I've seen press commentary since then about the kind of self-restraint that he exhibited, the valuing of the country's interests over what his
strongest supporters may have wished. But I think that that is characteristic of his decision-making style and very much reflects his
values.
ISAACSON: Tell me the type of things you think he would have been wrestling with, not just this weekend, but for the past two or three weeks
as the party slowly, slowly urged him to get out of the race.
BAUER: I can only tell you what, you know, I would observe and what I would conclude from my observation, the political scene and from him. And
that is, he's a candidate, but he's also president of the United States, and he has a higher responsibility, of course, than worrying about, say,
for example, his personal political fortunes.
And I think his letter yesterday made it very clear that he viewed the current political moment as one that he needed to step out of so that he
could focus on governing. And I think that has to be kept in mind. He made this decision as president of the United States. And that is, I think,
again, very defining very much how you would expect Joe Biden to make a decision like this.
ISAACSON: You know, you've just written a book called "The Unraveling," and you talk a bit about the authoritarian movements that have happened
around the world, people clinging to power, and how this is a moment where we have to assert democracy. Do you think that that has been a theme, too,
of Biden's decision?
BAUER: Joe Biden, throughout his entire administration, frankly, the very rationale of his candidacy in 2019, 2020 was to recapture the democratic
soul of the nation or to protect it against what he thought the threat was from the politics of Donald Trump.
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And so, I think historians may later link this decision in the moment as Donald Trump looks to have another term in office may link this decision to
those sets of concerns with protecting the democracy, ensuring that we're in the strongest position to prevent Donald Trump from gaining the office,
from regaining the office. So, I do see the Democratic concerns that Joe Biden has as weighing very much on his decision-making in the moment.
ISAACSON: We see so much of people clinging to power around the world, at home, whatever, and it seemed for a while that that was something Biden was
doing, he was clinging to power, and suddenly, it changed. Do you sense that there's a historic legacy part of that change?
BAUER: I don't know that I would have ever characterized the president from my standpoint, as you put it, clinging to power. I think like any
leader, he is -- especially one who's been as successful as he is, he's skilled at reading the moment, judging it as much as anybody can in the
moment, in historic context. And he concluded the time was now for him to focus on governing and allow someone else to carry the case against Donald
Trump.
But I don't think it was a clinging. I think there was an ongoing assessment on his part of what this moment required of him, what leadership
he had to exercise. And that decision yesterday, a decision to step out of the campaign and to focus on governing is a leadership decision. It needs
to be understood that way in my view.
ISAACSON: Those who've known Joe Biden for the -- over the decades, including yourself, myself, the Democrats and Republicans, there was a
sense, I think, when the announcement came down of a bit of a sadness. I mean, in some ways, a long career like that, it hits you that suddenly he's
now has a step off stage. Tell me about your own personal emotions.
BAUER: My emotions on this are very strong. Joe Biden has played an extraordinary role in the public life of this country for a very long time.
In the United States Senate, in an extraordinary period as vice president of the United States, Senator Barack Obama, and as President of the United
States. There are very few careers in American political history like that.
And I also look at this presidency as one that was full of promise, much of which he fulfilled. It was an extraordinary presidency in many ways, and I
think it's been viewed that way. And in many of the retrospectives that have begun to be written, including by critics who did not want him to run
for re-election and did not want him to stay in the race, there is a recognition of what a successful president he has been at a particularly
troubled time.
It's not as if he took office in 2020 in circumstances that would have voted well for success across the board for what he had said he would do.
And yet, he had extraordinary success. And he met with challenges both here domestically and abroad with verve, imaginations, said (ph) fastness. And
what I think he is particularly skilled at doing, and that is building support for good policy. And always keeping in mind the values that I think
people have detected at the core of his career and his presidency.
ISAACSON: The book he wrote, "The Unraveling," talks about how polarized we've become. Joe Biden seemed like he could have been an antidote to that.
He was somebody always worked across the aisle, and to some extent, during his presidency, he got bipartisan bills, especially the infrastructure one.
Do you think that part of his legacy will be that he tried to tamp down the partisanship or was that impossible?
BAUER: It's obviously very challenging and it's a period of extreme polarization. As you know, the recently selected vice-presidential running
mate of Donald Trump views himself as a so-called post liberal. There's a whole lot to be unpacked in the way he describes himself and the ideology
he articulates. It's fair to say it's nothing like what Joe Biden holds dear and has articulated over the course of his presidency.
What I think it is fair to say, however, is it's difficult as this has been, and you pointed to some of those accomplishments. Joe Biden
accomplished an enormous amount, and it's hard to imagine any other political figure in this period of time who could have done what he did,
and I think there's a general recognition, as I said, even among critics that that is the case.
So, I think in that sense, as hazardous as it is for us in the moment to protect what a legacy will be, I do think that would be very much part of
his legacy. I think it will be the defining part of his legacy.
ISAACSON: You were involved with the debate preparation, as you've been in the past. To -- explain that night to me and whether it was a total
aberration or whether it reflected something that Biden began to see in himself.
[13:35:00]
BAUER: I certainly thought it was -- and he said it himself, a very difficult night. But I thought it was aberrational. It's nothing that I
would have forecast or predicted or that he would have forecast or predicted, and I don't think it represents in any way what another debate
would have been like. He debated in 2019 and 2020, he's obviously been in the public eye ever since then. But what happened and it set off the train
of events that have led us to this moment.
ISAACSON: Do you think there can be an open convention for the Democrats, whether -- do you think it's a good idea or do you think it's better for
Vice President Harris to pretty much sail toward the nomination?
BAUER: Well, I'm speaking outside of my remit on that. I mean, I'm not a professional pundit and I'm not a political operative. I can only say
President Biden has endorsed the vice president. He selected her because of her record and her distinction and his belief that she could be president
of the United States. It appears that the party is strongly moving in her direction.
I understand there are voices for open convention. And I cannot tell you how they think that will unfold and what they would expect that to produce.
But I --
ISAACSON: Well, you're a lawyer though. Do you see legal problems with an open convention where it's unclear who the nominee is going to be for a
while or are those things that the party shouldn't worry about, they should figure out the best process for choosing a nominee?
BAUER: In the current circumstances, there are going to be perfectly reasonable disagreements about the best process, but I would point out that
there are some significant issues with carrying on too late with this kind of debate, however strong the debate it becomes, however extensive the
debate it becomes. There are ballot access deadlines that loom toward the end of August.
And so, one of the rationales, the leading -- the key rationale behind the virtual roll call vote, that is, you know, the DNC has been working on, has
been to ensure that there is a ticket in place to avoid any conflict with valid access deadlines. And then, the other point to be made is this, if
the party is coalescing around -- and again, especially just my personal view, if the party is coalescing around to Kamala Harris over this very
short period of time that we have, relatively speaking until the election, then it is better that we have a ticket that we could have confidence in
now as early as possible so that the general election campaign can begin.
Having an ongoing and potentially divisive debate within the party, I don't know that it will be divisive, but any ongoing debate with party delays the
moment when the party can prepare to take on Donald Trump and J. D. Vance. And so, I think that is a significant consideration here.
ISAACSON: The Republican speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, has said that they're going to use, the Republicans, a lot of legal methods to challenge
the ballots in various states where the ballots of now would have Kamala Harris and a running mate. To what extent are there some legal issues
involved with that? And do you think that it's -- the Republicans should be testing that in court rather than just contesting it at the voting booths?
BAUER: I think the way you put the question, I think, suggests the right answer. They should allow this political party to make a decision about a
nominee and then join issue with that nominee on the issue so that voters can make an informed decision.
Let me be very clear. I mean, my day job as a law professor, if Mike Johnson were my student, he would have a failing grade. What he's spouting
here as a potential counterattack on the party pivoting from the President Biden upon his withdrawal to another candidate is utter and total nonsense.
He knows it -- I hope he knows it. There must be people in his circle knows it -- who know it, even if he doesn't. And so, that's all the distraction.
And I -- it is so evidently preposterous that the Republican Party can decide what the Democratic Party ticket looks like in November, then I
can't imagine anybody taking seriously. And it certainly will not be taken seriously in any court of law.
ISAACSON: You were involved in President Biden's decision-making from way back and I think that you were involved with his selection of Kamala Harris
to be his running mate, right? Did you advocate for that? And what do you see her strengths and perhaps weaknesses are?
BAUER: My role was in the process by which these candidacies for vice president were, if you will, vetted and sort of prepared for the
president's decision. So, it was not an advocacy role. But I think everybody recognized from the very beginning that she was an extraordinary
candidate for vice president. She had significant experience at both the state and the federal level, highly regarded. And I don't think there was
any doubt, of course, that the candidacy was, in other respects, an historic one.
And he picked her with full confidence that she could be president. And I don't think there's anything to suggest that that assessment was incorrect.
ISAACSON: What do you think the case she should make now on the campaign trail is?
[13:40:00]
BAUER: I would -- now, again, speaking just for myself and not purporting to advise Vice President Harris on her political strategy, let me go to
some of the issues that I think are most important. And that is what the Trump-Vance ticket represents in the nation's politics at this moment in
history. However, you characterize it, whether it's a test of our democracy in whatever way you look at the make America great agenda that Donald Trump
and J. D. Vance in their own ways have articulated, this is, I think, a very defining moment.
Now, of course, in every election cycle, we hear the line, it is the most important election in our history. Most important election in our lifetime.
I do think this is an extraordinarily important election. And I do think that she needs to -- and she will and has done so on the campaign trail
point out the way in which this is a divisive and reactionary politics.
And all of the rhetoric of grievance that Donald Trump and J. D. Vance wrapped their politics up in cannot hide the fact that it is a divisive
politics, a divisive reactionary politics that is going to mean a step back from many things, from reproductive rights on, that I believe many
Republicans, as well as, of course, independents and Democrats, think we have to protect.
ISAACSON: You've been working with some Republicans, even to try to change the system. I know you worked with Ben Ginsberg and Jack Goldsmith on some
structural changes you thought could happen. What changes do you think we need to make? And do you think that there can be sort of a coalition of
some Republicans and Democrats who work together to save what you feel is problematic with our democratic process now?
BAUER: Yes, absolutely. I'm working hard on nonpartisan reform initiatives with Republicans. And I travel around the country. I meet, for example,
with election officials who are trying to put on an election the public can and should have confidence in. And I think that that work is ongoing, and
I'm heartened by what I find when I leave Washington.
When you go out of D.C. and you talk to even committed Republicans who are likely to pull the lever for Donald Trump because they can't bring
themselves to vote for a Democrat, you do find a willingness to stand up, for example, for our voting systems, for professional, nonpartisan election
administration that treats voters the way voters should be treated. You find that. And it is really important that we defend that.
Local communities have to defend their election officials. Those election officials should be honored for the work that they do. That doesn't mean we
can't have disagreements about voting rules. Some people don't like early voting. Some people don't like automatic voter registration. We can have
policy disputes. But the attempt to portray the American election system as corrupt, the product of systematic cheating with results that can't be
relied on, is a direct attack on the democracy. It is a falsehood and it has to be thoroughly rebutted.
ISAACSON: What do you think Joe Biden's legacy will be?
BAUER: From my vantage point, and I don't think I'm alone in doing it, I think he will have been viewed as an extraordinary president who
articulated democratic values when they most needed to be honored, who set about to try to protect institutions, to show respect for the rule of law,
and to rally both political parties behind policies that could be said not in one party's interest, but in the national interest. I think it's an
extraordinary achievement, in my view, and I hope that's precisely how it will be recorded and how it will -- how his legacy will be defined.
ISAACSON: Bob Bauer, thank you so much for joining us.
BAUER: Well, thank you very much for having me. I really enjoyed it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Well, high power Democrats are coalescing around Vice President Harris. The former speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, just endorsed the
vice president, calling her support for Kamala Harris official, personal, and political.
Meanwhile, the Trump campaign was quick to push out its first attack ads on the vice president, accusing her of covering up Biden's "obvious mental
decline." But the reality is that this late change in the race is a blow to the Republican plan of action after spending months shaping their strategy
around one simple fact, Joe Biden being their opponent.
Former Republican strategist Sarah Longwell joins me now from Washington to discuss the state of play. Sarah, it's only been like a couple of days.
You're back on with me on Friday. And whoa, so much has changed. You know, we've been discussing this throughout the hour, maybe not that big of a
surprise, that Joe Biden ultimately decided that that he will withdraw.
That having been said, political earthquake here, given that Kamala Harris has received his endorsement and now appears to be the nominee. How is this
playing out in Republican circles?
[13:45:00]
SARAH LONGWELL, PUBLISHER OF "THE BULWARK," HOST OF "THE FOCUS GROUP" PODCAST AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS AGAINST TRUMP: Well,
look, there is no doubt about it. Donald Trump's campaign wanted to run against Joe Biden. They have made this campaign about age and mental
acuity, which was always a little bit of a gamble for Donald Trump, considering that after Joe Biden, Donald Trump is the oldest nominee for
president in the United States's history.
And so, now that Joe Biden is gone, Donald Trump is the oldest nominee for president ever. And he is going to have to now live in the frame that he
created. He's going to have to run against a much younger nominee who's going to have a vice president who is also young and is going to -- they're
going to be able to run on generational change and on change in general.
I mean, I cannot tell you how many focus groups I have sat through and I do at least one a week, if not more, people were so down on this choice. The
reason that the term double haters became the term for the persuadable voters this time is there were so many people who just did not want this
rematch. Now, they've got something fresh.
And look, people are going to say things like, well, Kamala, you know, she was in the administration. The fact is, I've listened to voters talk about
Kamala for a long time, and she doesn't have a particularly positive impression from swing voters. However, the main thing they say about her is
they're like, I don't know what she does. I don't ever see her. What does she even do?
Well, she has the chance to reset that narrative now. And I think by being energetic, by going on offense against Trump, by prosecuting a case against
Trump, something Joe Biden had become incapable of doing, she can really turn this race around. And I think that you can just see the new energy in
it, and that has got Donald Trump's campaign completely freaked out because they built this thing to run against Joe Biden, and now they're not.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, Tim Alberta had a lengthy profile on the Trump campaign called Trump is planning for a landslide win, and that's really where the
momentum was just a few weeks ago, going into the convention, then you had the assassination attempt, and then you had the more positive news, his --
headed his way from the documents case being dismissed by the judge there. And now, Tim Alberta tweeted, really cannot overstate how problematic this
is for Trump's operation. Obviously, that being the fact that Biden withdrew from the race, everything they built was customized for a contest
with Biden. And I mean everything.
Clearly, they now have time for opposition research against Kamala Harris. How are you hearing, how are you seeing this play out in terms of this new
scramble they find themselves in?
LONGWELL: Well, first of all, I just want to say that we may look back on this moment as the time when Donald Trump's campaign peaked. And it will
have peaked too early. For a minute there it looked like he couldn't catch a bad break. Everything was going his way. Like you just said, things were
-- the cases were getting dismissed, everything else was pushed out too far to be litigated before this election. He had this convention that was
focused on Biden, focused on the party, looking unified. You know, everything's different now. Everything's different.
And I do think that, look, they are going to -- what they're going to do is they're going to bring out the absolute worst in Donald Trump and in his
supporters. They will -- you already hear them saying it, where they call Kamala Harris, you know, a DEI president, and they'll try to do that.
They'll try to run that play. But that doesn't reflect particularly well on them. I think they have a lot of concerns about the fact that she could
make this race much Biden was capable of doing.
And most importantly, Kamala Harris has the ability to go on offense and prosecute a case against Donald Trump. She has the ability to make this
about him, which was the problem. For them, for their campaign, for Trump's campaign, they knew they were going to be able to make this about Joe
Biden. And for a long time, they had. And now, Kamala Harris and whoever she chooses to serve vice president can make this election a referendum on
Donald Trump. And if it is a referendum on Donald Trump, he will lose.
GOLODRYGA: A referendum on Donald Trump is interesting because up until now it clearly had been a referendum on Joe Biden and that's why there was
so much concern within the Democratic Party because that's not what they wanted to focus on. I'm curious, if her strength is focusing specifically
on reproductive rights and abortion in a way that perhaps President Biden hadn't been so strong on hitting, some are worried in the party itself
about what are her perceived weaknesses. And that are some of the stumbles that she had early on in this administration, particularly as it came to
immigration, which is the biggest priority for Trump and for many Republicans and undecided voters as well.
[13:50:00]
Let's play some sound from her that will undoubtedly be used by Republicans here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: I want to be clear to folks in this region who are thinking about making that dangerous trek to the United States-Mexico border, do not come.
Do not come. The United States will continue to enforce our laws and secure our border.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Well, that clearly wasn't enough of a threat, don't come. What can she do, in your view? Obviously, you're not advising her. But what
could she do to regain the momentum on this particular issue?
LONGWELL: I mean, look, I think that she should be able to go on offense and say there was a deal on the table. Democrats worked with conservatives
like James Lankford, and they put forward a tough immigration bill and Donald Trump scuttled it and the Republicans scuttled it because they
wanted the issue, because they wanted the border as an issue. And so, I think that Joe Biden struggled to sort of go on offense in that way to
reframe the debate.
And look, the fact is the Biden administration has been more recently much tougher on immigration. It's too late or it is late for them to do it. And
the fact is they are vulnerable on immigration, but she should be able to point to the fact that they have made substantive changes here in the last
few months that are working at the border. And to be able to say that Republicans had a chance to solve this problem and they refused to.
And I think Joe Biden struggled sometimes to make these affirmative cases, but she, with her ability to prosecute this case, should be able to do it.
GOLODRYGA: What do you make -- how seriously do you take these threats from the speaker of the House saying that there will be lawsuits now on
Democrats basically disenfranchising 14 million votes throughout the primaries that went to Joe Biden, now him, you know, and you're already
hearing it that Democrats are using this as a coronation for Kamala Harris. This isn't a democratic process. Donald Trump himself has called this a
coup. Does this narrative have legs to stand on?
LONGWELL: I don't think Republicans know what a coup is. I don't think they realize -- I don't think they understand what that word means. A coup
-- an attempted coup is when you have, let's say, a group of rioters that attack a capital and they go inside and they try to overturn the results of
an election. And when the president actually incites them to do that and refuses to accept the election results, like that was a violent attempt at
a coup.
This is a president doing what he is constitutionally capable of doing, which is stepping aside and his vice president taking over as the nominee.
And I don't think that there's anybody who thinks that the Democratic primary, which was essentially uncontested, I don't think anybody thinks
that is overturning the will of the people, especially since in all of the polling, it showed that roughly 70 percent of voters wanted Joe Biden to
step aside.
And so, I don't think that narrative has led -- what it does show -- it does show you how afraid these Republicans are against running against
anybody who isn't Joe Biden. That's what this is. And it's funny because the last time they took legal action like this, it was to try to keep Joe
Biden out of the White House. And now, they're trying to keep Joe Biden -- using legal action -- to keep him in the White House because they want to
run against him. But I don't think -- I'm not a lawyer, but these smacks of desperation. I don't think it has legs to stand on.
GOLODRYGA: Quickly, yes or no, do you think that there will be a debate now between Trump and Harris?
LONGWELL: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: OK.
LONGWELL: I think -- I mean, she's going to -- again, she should go on offense on this and goad him into doing it.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, he's already saying ABC won't be fair. It should be done on Fox News. We'll see where that falls.
LONGWELL: It must be embarrassing for him.
GOLODRYGA: In the meantime, Sarah Longwell, I'm sure we'll be speaking very soon. Thanks so much for joining us.
And finally, a story of valiant recovery. The Israel-Hamas war has been the deadliest war in history period on record for reporters covering violent
conflicts. Since October 7th, at least 108 have been killed while doing their jobs, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. Many others
have sustained serious injuries, including AFP photojournalist Christina Assi, who was wounded in an Israeli airstrike in Southern Lebanon last
year.
In our emotional conversation in December, her colleague, Dylan Collins, who was also hurt in the strike opened up about the extent of Christina's
injuries.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DYLAN COLLINS, VIDEO JOURNALIST, AFP: She sustained devastating injuries to both legs and -- which led to the amputation of one of her legs. She's
been -- you know, since October 13th, she's undergone more than 15 different surgeries.
[13:55:00]
She's been in and out of the ICU. She's bled more than any human should bleed. But you know, she's an immensely strong person and her strength has
carried me through the trauma of these past two months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: I vividly remember that conversation. Well, now, nine months later, we are seeing that incredible strength on display. Look at this,
with Christina bearing the Olympic torch and Dylan pushing her across the eastern suburbs of Paris. A jester paying tribute to her fallen friends.
This is all for them, she says. Just an incredibly emotional and heartfelt moment.
Well, that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
