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Amanpour
Interview with Senator Carol Moseley Braun (D-IL); Dem Leaders Speak as Party Rallies Around VP Harris; Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries Endorses VP Kamala Harris; Interview with Palestinian Peace Activist and Social Entrepreneur Aziz Abu Sarah; Interview with Israeli Peace Activist and Social Entrepreneur Maoz Inon; Interview with "Jesus and John Wayne" Author Kristin Kobes Du Mez. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 23, 2024 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We have work to do. We have doors to knock on. We have people to talk to. We have phone calls to make. And we
have an election to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: As Democratic delegates flood Kamala Harris with support, we look to the race ahead and the issues the VP may face with Carol Moseley
Braun, the first black woman to reach the Senate.
Then, Netanyahu's visit to the U.S. could be crucial to a ceasefire deal, but does he want one? We get the latest.
And trying to end an endless war. Palestinian and Israeli peace activists Aziz Abu Sarah and Maoz Inon joined me to discuss their efforts to end the
violence despite horrific personal loss.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTIN KOBES DU MEZ, AUTHOR, "JESUS AND JOHN WAYNE": But key to understanding Christian support in this country for Donald Trump, they
think he will fight for them and he will give power to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Historian Kristin Kobes Du Mez tells Michel Martin how white evangelicals have corrupted a faith and fractured a nation.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
What's all coming up? Kamala Harris. Just two days since President Joe Biden announced that he was dropping out of the race, the VP has been
flooded with delegate support, all but guaranteeing that she will be the Democratic nominee.
On top of that, she's amassed a record-breaking $100 million dollars in campaign donations. At her first campaign event yesterday, Harris laid out
her vision and did not hesitate to set up the new paradigm in this election. The prosecutor versus the convicted felon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I was a courtroom prosecutor. In those roles, I took on perpetrators of all kinds. Predators who abuse women.
Fraudsters who ripped off consumers. Cheaters who broke the rules for their own gain. So, hear me when I say, I know Donald Trump's type.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Well, the GOP isn't wasting any time either, lining up attack ads against the vice president, and some believe that campaign could take
an ugly turn. Prominent Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez saying, people will have to brace themselves for misogynistic and
potentially explosive racist attacks.
Well, joining me now is a trailblazer who's had to walk a similar path. Carol Mosley Braun became the first black woman to reach the Senate in 1992
when she was elected by the State of Illinois. Well, now she's a superdelegate as the Democrats pick their new nominee, and she joins me for
from Chicago. Carol Moseley Braun, thank you so much for joining us.
A lot of attention will be focused on the city urine in just a few weeks. But let me ask you about your reaction to what's happened in just the past
few days, and that is President Joe Biden really passing the torch to his vice president to carry on the nomination for Democratic -- the election
this year as the Democratic nominee.
FMR. SEN. CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN (D-IL): Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm a great fan of Christiane's. I'm glad you're here. And I'm
glad I'm here to say to you that I'm looking forward to the convention. I hope it will be calm, or as calm as it can be. Chicago has been the site of
conventions before, and they have been crazy.
So, right now, what we're looking at is a funny kind of chaos within the Democratic Party, but I'm reminded of that old Will -- I think it was Will
Rogers who said, I don't belong to no organized group. I'm a Democrat. So, the fact of the matter is Democrats have come together behind Kamala
Harris. I support her wholeheartedly. And she's got the record. She's got the competence. She's got the credentials. She absolutely can do this, beat
Donald -- DJT as -- for president.
And we just -- we have to brace ourselves for the attacks because it's going to be an ugly campaign, it always is, but it's going to be -- I think
she can rise above it and she can win. And we'll have somebody in the mold of Joe Biden who has served his country nobly and ably for the last 30
years, at least.
GOLODRYGA: What are you hearing for constituents as we see their pictures of her in Wisconsin, a battleground state, as she's there with Senator
Tammy Baldwin? Notably President Biden was there two weeks ago campaigning and Senator Baldwin was about 170 miles away at a separate event. What does
that signal to you about party unity around Kamala Harris' candidacy?
[13:05:00]
BRAUN: I think it's to be celebrated. I think it's a wonderful thing. The fact is the Democratic Party has come together, all the factions of it,
have come together behind Vice President Kamala Harris to be the next President of the United States. And I think if we have the unity, we can
win this election.
That's going to -- that's what it's going to take. Because elections are always like rollerball, you never know what's going to happen. And for all
the polling and everything else, we have to wait until election day when the actual poll that matters, e.g., the vote takes place.
GOLODRYGA: It's all but assumed that she will be the nominee here, just given the rush of support and the delegates that she's already amassed at
this point. But what do you make, and what do you say to those who, while still maybe support her, say the better path for her, what would actually
strengthen her is in -- for the next few years, to basically have an open primary, to let her prove herself and let her get some experience once
again debating?
BRAUN: That's nonsense. That's nattering nabobs of negativism, OK? That is called, how do you split this party open? And I'm not sure that we come
together around our presidential nominee. And it's just bad. So, I'm behind Senator Harris forever. That's Senator Harris Harrison, in my mindset.
GOLODRYGA: Senator, vice president, and then presidential nominee or candidate.
BRAUN: I would've followed Joe Biden to the gates of hell, just so you know. So, -- but now, that he's passed the torch to Kamala Harris, I'm with
her a thousand percent, and I'm going to stick with her, and I think it's important that Democrats -- not just Democrats, but voters, period,
understand that we have the most qualified, the most credentialed candidate, the person who can do this job. And she will, I think, make us
all happy.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and we're -- any moment now, we should let our viewers know that we're expecting to hear Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer,
along with House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, publicly endorse Kamala Harris in a news conference, and that'll just be in any moment now. So,
want to let you know about that development.
In terms of her messaging, you know, it is going to be rather challenging, in the sense that she's still attached to the Biden-Harris administration,
she's still his vice president, a lot of their policies and her views are likely in sync with President Biden. But she is a different person. She has
her own past. She has her own record. She has her own strengths.
What we heard yesterday from her, it appears to be a preview of what we can expect to see on the campaign trail, and that is really honing in on her
role as a prosecutor. And as she said yesterday, going after somebody she's very familiar with, the type, and that is a convicted felon.
BRAUN: The fact is, there was a jury that convicted him, 34 counts. So, he is a convicted felon. And they can't wish that away or obfuscate the
conversation that way. That's what they're going to try to do. They're going to try to deflect conversation so it's not based on what he's done,
but rather what he's "stands for," and what he looks like in this kind of fantasy world they're trying to create for the American people. I think
it's terrible. You know, let's stick to the facts. Let's talk about what is, and I think if we do that Kamala Harris wins.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And Joe Biden yesterday, we heard from him for the first time since his announcement that he will no longer be the nominee. I want
to play sound from him yesterday at -- in Delaware as he called in to Kamala Harris addressing the campaign. And here's what he said about what
this next chapter means and will look like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: So, let me be real clear. We're still fighting in this fight together. I'm not going anywhere. And I want you to know I've
always -- you've always had my back and I promise you, I will always have your back and I'm anxious for you all to hear from Kamala.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: We're expecting to hear more from the president on the campaign trail. He also said that the name at the top may have changed, but the
vision, the goal has not. Given where the poll numbers are now, I'm wondering, just from a political standpoint, I know how you feel about Joe
Biden, I know how you feel about what he's accomplished in this administration now, but from a political standpoint, do you think that it's
wise for him to be aligned with her closely throughout this campaign?
BRAUN: Well, to begin with, you're right, Joe Biden has done a yeoman's job as president. He's delivered on everything he said he was going to do,
and the American people can only be proud of his record. And I think -- not just in America, but in the world.
[13:10:00]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: We are going to take you live to Capitol Hill where top Democrats, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, House Minority
Leader Hakeem Jeffries, holding a joint press conference regarding Vice President Kamala Harris. We expect an announcement here. Have a listen.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), MAJORITY LEADER: We are here today to show our support behind Vice President Kamala Harris. I'm clapping. You don't have
to.
It's a happy day. What can I say? Together, we will keep and hopefully grow the Senate majority. And under future Speaker Hakeem Jeffries, we will win
back the House. Democrats are moving forward stronger and more united than ever before.
In just the last 36 hours. I have seen a surge of enthusiasm from every corner of our party, uniting behind Vice President Harris. An enthusiasm
felt in every corner of the country, and it's contagious among Democrats. The volunteers, the small contributions, they're just pouring in ways even
beyond our expectations.
Now, we all know that Vice President Harris has a tremendous record to run on. And now, begins the next chapter in our quest to make sure Donald Trump
does not become president.
Today, with one voice, we speak about the dangers he presents to working families, to our country, and to our democracy. We see very clearly how
nervous the Republicans are about our new nominee. Well, they ain't seen nothing yet.
Last night, Vice President Harris secured a majority of delegates. Today, in Wisconsin and across America, we begin our next chapter and it will be
our best yet. Vice President Harris will beat Donald Trump and become the next president of the United States of America. Applause.
Hakeem.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: Thank you, Leader Schumer. Joe Biden is a patriotic American. Joe Biden is a heroic American. Joe
Biden is a great American. Joe Biden will go down in American history as one of the most consequential presidents of all time.
President Joe Biden has made the selfless decision to pass the torch to Vice President Kamala Harris, who is ready, willing, and able to lead us
into the future. Kamala Harris and her candidacy has excited and energized the House Democratic Caucus, the Democratic Party, and the nation. Vice
President Harris has earned the nomination from the grassroots up and not the top down. She is ready. She is willing. She is able to energetically
and emphatically lead America into the future.
Kamala Harris is a common-sense leader who knows how to deliver real results for hardworking American taxpayers. Kamala Harris is a courageous
leader who has worked hard throughout her entire career to keep our communities safe. Kamala Harris is a compassionate leader who will build an
affordable economy that makes life better for everyday Americans. Kamala Harris will fight for our freedom. Kamala Harris will fight for our
families. Kamala Harris will fight for our future.
I'm proud to strongly endorse Kamala Harris to be the 47th president of the United States of America. We're going to hold the Senate. We're going to
win the House. We're going to elect Kamala Harris as our next president in November.
SCHUMER: Thank you. Yes. Questions on this subject. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you said that this would be a bottom-up process, but Kamala Harris is the vice president of the United States. There was no
other competition. This is going to be selected by party delegates, insiders, essentially. How -- what's your case to the American people and
to the Democratic voters that voted for Joe Biden that this isn't a coronation?
[13:15:00]
SCHUMER: The bottom line, it was a bottom-up process. People just rallied right to her side. The enthusiasm in this big, diverse, representative
party was amazing. You could -- it was palpable. You could cut it with a knife. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried that Republican efforts will bubble up in states to keep Harris off the ballot to leave Joe Biden on the ballot?
SCHUMER: No. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When are you guys going to meet with the vice president?
SCHUMER: Soon. See, we're getting more questions in with short answers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had a number of conversations with the president over the last several weeks. He went up to Delaware. That was described as
a bit of an emotional meeting of sorts. I'm wondering, did you ever personally ask him not to run for re-election?
SCHUMER: Look, the -- what I would say is that the president, he's done an amazing, amazing job as president, one of the best we've ever had. And he
put his country first and made the right decision. Thank you, everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Preference on the vice president?
SCHUMER: That's (INAUDIBLE). Thanks, everybody.
SCIUTTO: There you have it, Democratic leaders in the Senate, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and in the House, the Democratic leader
Hakeem Jeffries, announcing their energetic, enthusiastic endorsement of Vice President Kamala Harris for president. Hakeem Jeffries calling her a
courageous leader, a compassionate leader, someone who will fight for our families and fight for our future.
Chuck Schumer was asked to respond to criticism that her choice happened by party leaders and others as opposed to Democratic voters being given an
option, a mini primary, the various options that had been floated. And he said no, that this was a bottom-up process, as he described it. He was also
asked whether there was any concern that some Republican led states might attempt to keep Biden's name on the ballot as opposed to Harris'. He said,
no, he's not concerned that will not happen.
Thanks so much for joining us here on CNN Max with this breaking news. I'm Jim Sciutto. We will now rejoin Amanpour in progress.
GOLODRYGA: -- the last few days, we have a president who's now essentially a lame duck until January, and we have what appears to be another nominee
right now, all but confirmed, and that is his vice president, Kamala Harris, who is a little less known quantity with regards to the Israeli
public and even Prime Minister Netanyahu in his cabinet.
They are expected to meet on Thursday. She will not be attending his speech, but what will you be watching for in the meeting between Harris and
the prime minister.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's going to be very interesting to see how the vice president handles this issue of the war in
Gaza of support for Israel. I mean, by and large, she has stood by the president's side through many of his policies, although there have been
times where she has been a little bit quicker to kind of be attuned to the suffering of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.
She made that call for a ceasefire in March. That was a bit -- had a bit more urgency to it than what we were hearing from President Biden and from
the White House at the time. And look, she's going to have to confront this issue electorally as well. We know, of course, that President Biden was
facing huge issues with his progressive base because of his overarching support for Israel, his supplying of weapons to Israel as it battles Hamas
in Gaza.
And so, Harris is going to be tied to many of those policies, but she also has an opportunity here to try and distinguish herself. So, it's notable
that, for example, she chose, although this happened, it seems, before Biden dropped out, she chose not to preside over Netanyahu's speech to
Congress visually, that would have been a dynamic that maybe would not have been good for her with her base, could have been problematic. So, it'll be
interesting to see how she addresses this meeting with Netanyahu, what emerges from it publicly.
And also, this will be an opportunity for the Israeli prime minister to gauge someone who could potentially be the next president of the United
States, how she will approach things. And I also think Netanyahu is going to be looking this week to see how Trump feels about things. It's not clear
yet whether he will meet with the former president, but we know that Netanyahu is an avid and very keen observer of U.S. politics. And as he
moles this issue of a potential ceasefire deal, whether or not to take that leap, he will certainly be looking to see what his options will be after
the November elections and how that might impact the future of U.S. policy towards Israel.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And President Biden obviously committed, as he said, number of times, to spend as many months ahead. And now, we know that this
will be the remainder of his administration, seeking an end to the war and the return to the hostages. The prime minister also met with families of
the hostages in Washington, D.C. A few have actually accompanied him to Washington.
[13:20:00]
And as you know, better than most, Jeremy, the pressure really is on this prime minister, not just from those abroad, but from Israelis at home to
really prioritize an end to this war and the return of the hostages as opposed to what many of you may be his ultimate priority, and that is
keeping his job and his coalition intact. Jeremy Diamond reporting to us live from Tel Aviv. Thank you so much.
Well, now, while in D.C. Netanyahu has met with family members, as we noted of those still held hostage in Gaza, and he faces intense pressure for many
who just want to deal to bring their loved ones home.
And for Palestinians inside Gaza, the war continues to destroy entire families and neighborhoods. Things have often felt helpless in the region,
especially since October 7th, but some rare voices continue to push for peace and coexistence, even in the face of intense grief. Like my next
guest, Aziz Abu Sarah, whose brother, Tayseer, was arrested when Aziz was nine years old and who died shortly after he was released nearly a year
later from what his family say were injuries from being tortured in prison. And Maoz Inon, whose parents were murdered on October 7th.
Aziz and Maoz recently took part in the Great Peace Conference in Tel Aviv. They're now in D.C. to spread that message as Netanyahu prepares to address
Congress. Welcome both of you, Aziz and Maoz, to the show. Listen, I watched a TED Talk between the two of you, and part of me just wishes we
could play that or have the two of you speak to each other as beautifully, as affectionately, as humanely as you did versus having me as a middleman
here. But here you are. It was really a beautiful moment and I encourage everyone to go watch that TED Talk.
But I do want to begin with you, Aziz, and talk to us more about how you two came together. I take it you didn't know each other before October 7th.
Aziz, you reached out to Maoz to offer your condolences, and thus this beautiful relationship began.
AZIZ ABU SARAH, PALESTINIAN PEACE ACTIVIST AND SOCIAL ENTREPRENEUR: Thank you, Bianna. And yes, you're right. I only want to say, hopefully not as
rare as people think we are. We represent a bigger number of people who are like us. On October 7th, I heard about Maoz's parents. We met maybe once
before because we both work in the same industry. We are entrepreneurs. And I decided to reach out. I sent him a message. I told him that I feel his
pain. I told him, you know, my brother was killed, so I understand what he's going through and that I'm standing with him in that moment.
I think empathy is something that all of us can afford, and I just wanted to tell him that he's not alone and that I care and love him. And
surprisingly, he responded. And then, a few days later, we talked, and then we've been on this journey ever since, trying to speak to our people,
trying to speak to people here in the U.S., everywhere, people willing to listen and say, look, we've been able to do it.
I mean, I remember when Maoz -- the first time I reached out to him, he said, I'm not only crying for my parents, I'm also crying for the children
in Gaza. And feeling that empathy from him and saying, everyone else can have that kind of empathy, can have that kind of care. And we here model
that kind of relationship, that kind of future.
GOLODRYGA: Well, I just have to say I'm so sorry, Aziz, for the loss of your brother. Maoz, I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved parents on
October 7th. It was the worst day in Israeli history. And to have the power, as Aziz just noted and the wherewithal in that moment, your darkest
day, I would imagine, the loss of your parents, and I hope you can tell us a little bit about them. But to then follow that by saying that their death
should not be revenged by the death of innocent civilians in Gaza as well. That is not a common response we hear or would even expect to hear from
someone who has suffered the unimaginable loss like you have.
MAOZ INON, ISRAELI PEACE ACTIVIST AND SOCIAL ENTREPRENEUR: So, first, thank you, Bianna, for having you -- having us on your show. It's not -- we
are not rare voices. We are representatives of a bigger and growing movement of both Palestinian Israelis that lost their loved one.
Some of us have been working for many years, like the family circle, the Bereaved Family Circle, Combatants for Peace, and there are many of the
newly bereaved families from October 7th that are now changed their life. Our life was changed and forced to be changed. And now, we are advocating
and working to make peace.
[13:25:00]
And if there are only three words that I would be able to share in here in D.C. and in your show is that peace is possible. Peace is possible. And
this is what we are doing now. And this is what -- I lost my -- both parents, I lost many of my childhood friends, their parents, their children
that were killed or kidnapped to Gaza. But I won a brother. I won a brother and a partner, Aziz Abu Sarah. And I won a tribe of Palestinian-Israeli
peacemakers and international supporters that together we have decided to achieve what's been achieved in many other regions in the world, was
achieved between Israel and Egypt, was achieved between Israel and Jordan, between the Otoe and the Tutsi in Rwanda.
It's now -- and now it's time to achieve it between the river and the sea, between Palestinians and Israelis. And I've been entrepreneur and a
businessman for the last 20 years, and I know that the bigger the crisis, also, the bigger the opportunity and this is what we came here to D.C. to
broad and strength our coalition, our movement and to gain more support.
And this is what we need. We need support. We need our voices to be amplified. We need to be the legitimacy and we need policy change from
tools of distractions to tools of construction. And there will be no security and safety to the people of Israel, to my community, where I was
born a mile from the border of Gaza, maybe five kilometers from Khan Younis, there will be no security and safety to the people of Israel if
there will be no security and safety to the people in Gaza, to the people in the West Bank. And now, it's time to make it happen.
GOLODRYGA: Aziz, and that's the difficult part, is making it happen. I've heard the same thing from both of you, and that is that you're representing
what appears, in your description to be not just a few voices, but many, perhaps silent, a group of people who support what you're doing, who are on
board with your message. And I'm wondering how you square that with the polling that we're seeing with those inside Gaza, inside the West Bank, and
inside Israel in particular.
Because, yes, on the one hand, there is polling that shows that Israelis want new leadership. They do not want Prime Minister Netanyahu to continue
to be their prime minister, but that doesn't suggest that the country is turning further left. The country has shifted more to the right and there's
polling among Palestinians suggests similar trajectories. So, what can be done to change that?
ABU SARAH: Yes, I think in times of war, people are angry. People are angry and we understand that. I was angry when my brother was killed and it
took me a while to overcome that anger. But we shouldn't look at the polls that say people are angry and assume that they don't want a peace
agreement, they don't want an end to this conflict. I think it's exactly the opposite.
And we've seen it through history. That anger can be used to fuel a solution rather than to lead to more destruction. But what's needed to do
that is a vision. As long as we don't have a vision, as long as we don't have an alternative to the language of bombs, to the language of revenge,
to the language of there is nobody to talk to, people assume that the only solution is actually to hate and to kill and to revenge from the other
side.
So, there is a way, and the way is showing that if we can do it, then nobody can argue that they can't. We have the most legitimate reasons to
hate each other, to want to kill each other, and yet, we call each other brothers. We love each other, and that's what we are trying to show.
In addition, I would say, the meeting we just -- that we just had in July 1st, the gathering of thousands of Israelis and Palestinians in Tel Aviv,
shows that there is a movement. There is a movement toward believing that this is -- this continuation and promises that if we just kill one more
person from the other side, it'll make us more safe, it just doesn't work and it doesn't happen.
And I believe there is an awakening. We just need those voices to be louder, like Maoz said, we need these voices to be amplified. We need them
to be -- whether it's in the media, whether it's legitimizing these voices, building those coalitions, working together, there's a lot of work we have
to do, but we are creating it every day. We are creating hope through our actions. And that's the way forward.
And we will see, just like in 1973, there was a war between Egypt and Israel, nobody believed five years later there'd be a peace agreement, and
yet, there was. And so, we can't be in despair and believe that there is no way forward. Because if we get to that despair, what do we do? The
alternative is just hate and killing.
[13:30:00]
GOLODRYGA: Maoz, you said, many of us are not brave enough to dream. And I'm wondering if that opportunity to dream, especially in regards to this
issue, can only be established once this war comes to an end and the hostilities in Gaza come to an end and the hostages come home.
INON: There is a phrase in the Jewish Talmud that peace is so big that even through war you must call for peace. So, we cannot wait for the war to
end. And those who thrive and win in this war are the extremist, Hamas, and the Israeli government. So, now is the time to call and cry for peace.
And I'm also saying when the Israelis were walking in the desert, to the promised land, they were thirsty and they cried for water. And now, the war
has been wedged for more than -- nearly 10 months. And I'm from, day one, I -- and we are crying for peace. There is no better time to cry for peace
than during war.
And our political leaders, politicians, there are no leaders. Our politicians from both sides, the Palestinian and the Israeli, they lost
their political imagination. And this is where we come into the picture and in the -- into the field and we start imagining for them and for the
region. And we need the support of the U.S. administration, the support of the world leader, like Pope Francis, who endorsed us and hugged us in a
holy hug. And it was very powerful and emotional. A moment not just for us, for the 12,000 peacebuilders that were in the arena, di Pace in Verona.
And before that, again, journalists kept asking us, is peace possible? Is peace possible? But what we answered is that only eight years ago, as the
war -- the second World War was raging and Europe and Italian were fighting against the Americans, against the British, and now, they're all gathering
in the arena, the di Pace in Verona, and they're all going to meet by the end of this week in the Olympic Games in Paris.
And German going to, of course, go. They have a huge delegation of German athletes and sportsmen that will participate in these Olympic games. But if
you were thinking about it and talking about it eight years ago, we would be called naive. But naive are those that believe that bombs would bring
security, and war will bring safety. They are naive.
We are the voices of reason. We are the voices of logic. And like Jordan, which -- the Jordan and Egypt, they are the only secure borders Israel has.
And Jordan, it's not only secure, Jordan also help us and supported us four months ago to stop the Iranian attack.
So, we need to bring this legacy back, the legacy of Former Prime Minister Menachem Begin, the legacy of Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, that
realized that the only way to bring security and safety is through a peace agreement, and it's about time to do it again.
GOLODRYGA: Aziz, I know you've traveled many countries and spoken to many people who have their own conflicts. And without oversimplifying, you know,
some of the basic needs of humanity, of humankind they're very similar, right? And you focus on really knowing each other's side narrative to start
this conversation process.
Walk us through what that means. Listening to the other side. If that even means asking some very difficult questions.
ABU SARAH: It does absolutely mean asking very different questions. I actually started a company that does that, Mejdi Tours, where we would put
together sometimes tour guides and Israeli and a Palestinian in his own Palestine. A Catholic and a protestant in Northern Ireland, a black and
white in South Africa because we understand that you can't go anywhere in the world and assume there is a single story.
In Israel and Palestine, we often talk about how wide our stories have become, starting in 1948 until today, our stories have gotten wider and
wider. But one of the things we can do is ask each other questions. And sometimes those questions can be painful.
I've seen my dad get in a peace conference and ask people, which I shouldn't have invited him because it was a very hard question he asked,
he's like, did the Holocaust happen? But here's the thing, if you don't ask those questions, you will never be able to have a real answer. And my dad
was able after to go to the Holocaust Memorial and learn about the Holocaust and learn about the Jewish story.
[13:35:00]
And vice versa, Israelis who came and asked, what happened really in 1948? What is the story of the Nakba? What's the Palestinian narrative? If we
don't ask those hard questions, there is no dialogue, there is no understanding. And we see it today with what's going on even in Gaza,
what's going on in Israel. So, little -- I meet so many Israelis who have no idea what is happening in Gaza, have not heard about the devastation,
have not heard about the loss of life, the thousands of kids have been killed.
And likewise, I know many Palestinians who know so little or don't believe what happened on October 7th. And the only way to break that is we need to
start communicating with each other. Stop assuming that we know what the other side believe. Talk to them directly. Ask those questions.
GOLODRYGA: It's amazing when you describe it that way, because there's no reason, it's inexcusable for Americans to not know what's happening, let's
say, in Sudan, or Gaza, or Ukraine. But the fact that so many Israelis and Palestinians alike don't know what's happening literally next door to each
other just miles away is really problematic and it's something that's so important that you're addressing that as you said, Maoz, I can't say it
better, you lost two parents, but you gained a brother. How beautiful. How beautiful this relationship that you formed between the two of you is, and
it comes at a time where the world needs to see more coming together and more unity like you're displaying right now.
INON: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you. Thank you so much.
INON: There are so many -- thank you. There are so many heroes of war and bloodshed, and we have decided to become heroes of reconciliation and
peace.
ABU SARAH: And, Bianna, before we go, because people who don't believe in peace, we always like to end every conversation we do with a hug, and we'd
like to do it now as well.
GOLODRYGA: Let's see it.
INON: Thank you. I love you, brother.
ABU SARAH: Likewise.
GOLODRYGA: That is just beautiful. Thank you. Thank you both. Aziz Abu Sarah, Maoz Inon, thank you so much for joining us on this very special
conversation.
INON: Thank you. Thank you.
ABU SARAH: Thank you. Thank you.
INON: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Returning now back to the U.S. where the political blueprint for the next Republican president, Project 2025, has drawn criticism, not
only from the Democrats, but also from Donald Trump himself, calling the 900-page document "seriously extreme." Yet, the contributors of the
conservative playbook include some of his closest political advisers, as well as organizations with Christian nationalist leanings.
Historian Kristin Kobes Du Mez speaks to Michel Martin about the rise of evangelicalism in politics and the impact it could have on American
democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Kristin Kobes Du Mez, thank you so much for talking with us once again.
KRISTIN KOBES DU MEZ, AUTHOR, "JESUS AND JOHN WAYNE": Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: So, I want to focus our conversation on Project 2025, but before we get into that, I did just want to get your thoughts. Take on the
Republican Convention. One of the reasons we called you is that we last spoke with you about your 2020 book, "Jesus and John Wayne," and you argued
that -- in that book, you argued that modern American evangelicalism has kind of replaced the Jesus of the gospels with an idol of kind of rugged
masculinity and Christian nationalism. Did you see that playing out over the course of the convention week?
DU MEZ: Absolutely. You know, that really is the vision. It's not a deep theological vision. "It's a vision for a Christian America," kind of need
to put that in quotes, Christian America vision of the country that says this country belongs to some people, but not to all people. It's a vision
of America that draws a stark boundary between real Americans, those who are on God's side, who are trying to restore Christian America, and enemies
and threats to America, to this vision for Christian America.
And that is an ideology that has run through conservative evangelicalism. You can see it also in conservative Catholicism in some places, in the
Pentecostal charismatic tradition that's really been cultivated for half a century now. If you look back to the rise of the Christian right, you can
see this, a very us versus them mentality that depicts kind of the Christians ought to have control of this country and anybody who threatens
that control is seen as an enemy. And that's the kind of theology that plays very well to Donald Trump.
Because he has promised to protect Christianity, right? His words. He has promised to be their ultimate fighting champion and to battle ruthlessly
for, you know, presumably their vision, which aligns with his vision, which is an open question, but that's who he has promised to be for them. And
that is really a key to understanding Christian support in this country for Donald Trump. They think he will fight for them and he will give power to
them.
[13:40:00]
MARTIN: So, tell me about Project 2025. I mean, if people have been following the campaign closely, they may have heard of this. What is it and
why do you think it's so important that we talk about it?
DU MEZ: Project 2025 is a lengthy document, around 900 pages, put together by the Heritage Foundation. And then, signed on to by over 100 conservative
organizations, which essentially provides Trump or the next Trump administration with a blueprint or policy proposals and pretty much a
conservative political playbook. Although, more extreme than we've often seen in recent years.
But it also brings together a proposal to essentially restructure the federal government. And that's what's key to understanding about Project
2025. It's not just the policy playbook, it's also a tool to completely restructure the government to give more power to the executive.
So, we've already seen the recent Supreme Court ruling that grants presidential immunity, and here we're seeing a playbook that is essentially
going to hand considerable power across the executive branch, across federal agencies, and place that power entirely in the hands of the next
president.
MARTIN: Why is this a particular concern of yours as a scholar of religion and theology? I mean, the Heritage Foundation isn't a religious
organization. Why is it that you've spent so much focus and attention on this?
DU MEZ: First, it's worth noting that many of the conservative organizations that have either contributed to or signed on to Project 2025
are distinctly Christian organizations, and you've got Christian colleges like Liberty University and Patrick Henry College, and you do have Dobson's
Family Institute signing on to this document. So, we have to think in terms of partnerships here.
A key person here, a key figure is Russell Vought. Russell Vought actually is a former Trump administration official in the office of management and
budget, and he also was the director of the committee that wrote the Republican Party platform, right? So, there's very deep ties in the Trump
administration and close connections to Trump.
He is also self-proclaimed Christian nationalist with very close ties to leading Christian nationalist voices in various denominations across this
country. And Vought wrote the chapter on executive power. So, here you can see the Christian nationalist agenda is then going to be placed in the
hands of an executive with unprecedented power.
And this is important because if you look at survey data on Christian nationalism, what you see is that the majority of Americans do not identify
as Christian nationalists. The majority of Americans do not want a Christian nation, according to this framework. So, democracy is not going
to get them to their end goal, but this kind of executive power grab may in fact accomplished -- accomplish what they are setting out to do.
MARTIN: It really envisions kind of a top to bottom overhaul of the federal government. What are some of the things that it proposes?
DU MEZ: First in terms of government structure. Really important here is it proposes essentially redefining thousands, probably tens of thousands of
federal workers as political appointees. And so, the goal here is to install, some people suggest 20,000, some as many as 50,000 federal
workers, civil servants, you essentially fire those who are currently staffing federal agencies and replacing them with Trump loyalists.
And in fact, part of Project 2025 is what people have referred to as a kind of conservative LinkedIn. And so, there's a recruitment database and online
training to train ideologically and in terms of practical skills to staff a new federal government with loyalists to Trump across all agencies. And
this includes the Department of Justice. And this is a really key point to understand in terms of the repercussions here.
Trump himself has made very plain that he wants to weaponize the Department of Justice and seize control over operations and then use that to seek
retribution against his political enemies. Project 2025 gives him the game plan to achieve that goal.
[13:45:00]
And so, that's what we have in terms of government restructuring. There's much more on that front. But then in terms of policies, we have things
about restricting the anti-abortion pill, mifepristone, for example, withdrawing FDA approval for that. Re-invoking the Comstock Act, going deep
into American history there, which will prohibit the mailing of abortion pills, possibly also, depending how far they take it, to contraceptives,
those sorts of things.
Anti-LGBTQ legislation, anti-DEI, proposals to prohibit their use of language, of words, in federal laws and regulations. Things like abortion,
reproductive health, gender identity, gender equity, these sorts of terms are going to be canceled and not allowed in any federal laws or
regulations. So, it really is expansive in scope.
MARTIN: In some of these proposals, there really isn't explicitly Christian tone or Christian nationalist tone in their mandate for
leadership. For example, in the and plans for the Department of Health and Human Services, it emphasizes maintaining a "biblically based definition of
marriage and family, "as it states, "for the sake of child wellbeing, programs should affirm that children require and deserve both the love and
nurturing of a mother and the play and protection of a of a father."
OK. That is a point of view, but we have a very long-established principle here of avoiding the establishment of kind of a state religion. How would
this pass muster in the courts? I mean, the courts have still upheld these long-held principles that suggest that you cannot advantage one religious
view over others. How did -- how do they get around that?
DU MEZ: Yes, I'm really glad you pointed to that particular passage, which could have some real implications, obviously for same sex marriage, for
adoption, even potentially for divorce. And so, that's really key. And it's rooting that proposal in what they claim to be biblical marriage, a
biblical prescription for what marriage is and is not.
And there's another passage that is really important to understand the framework here. The idea that the constitution guarantees the freedom or
liberty to do what one ought to do, not what one wants to do. And that really is foundation of Christian nationalism. Yes, you are free to obey
God's laws. And we are going to structure this country around God's laws. And then they redefine rather than the right and to the pursuit of
happiness, they say it's actually the pursuit of blessedness. And you are blessed when you obey these laws.
What are those laws? Well, this is where you can look at the whole conservative agenda here. It's going to be anti-abortion. It's going to be
anti-LGBTQ. And so, these rights do not exist within their framework. And so, they are redefining our nation's constitution, reinterpreting it
through this lens, that the only rights that are guaranteed are those that align with their understanding of God's law.
MARTIN: I think you still identify as a Christian. Would that be accurate?
DU MEZ: Yes, I do.
MARTIN: I'm just curious, like, why is this the version of Christianity that is ascendant now when so many other people have a different
interpretation of it?
DU MEZ: So, there are many people who have said, are saying, you know, wait a minute. This does not align with how I understand Jesus words in the
gospels. This is not under -- align with how I think we are called to be faithful in this world. But when you offer voices of opposition your
chances are you're going to run up against some real opposition.
And many conservative organizations are funded by powerful conservative donors. And this is true in higher education, and this is also true in term
in the Christian nonprofit world. There are all kinds of pressures, the Christian media world, Christian music, right? It's very hard to find a
Christian recording artist who will publicly call out some of these things, because if they do, their career is done.
At least they're not going to get any airtime on Christian radio, right? In terms of Christian publishing of a multibillion-dollar industry, we're
talking. And I think people outside of Christian spaces or conservative spaces are not aware of this massive industry.
[13:50:00]
And so much money is changing hands here. And within that industry, there are political orthodoxies that you have to hold to. And if you cross any of
those, right, you're not going to get the book contract, you're not going to get the record deal. And so, what we have is a kind of -- I mean,
indoctrination may not be too strong of a word, but certainly, the cultivation of one particular way to be a Christian and closing off many of
these other understandings of what it means to be a Christian in this country and in the world today.
MARTIN: Before I let you go, there is just one thing that I'm sort of just -- I still remain puzzled by, and that is Former Vice President Mike Pence.
There is no denying that he was a man of deep and sincere faith. OK. So, I'm just curious, like why the treatment of him isn't more resonant among
other evangelicals. I mean, he's made it clear, he was very badly treated. I mean, there are people calling for him to be killed.
DU MEZ: Mike Pence is the perfect example, I think, of how a lot of conservative Christians and a large swath of conservative evangelicals have
embraced a Christian nationalist agenda. And within that Christian nationalism, personal piety is not what makes somebody a great leader. Not
at all. In fact, that might actually work against the person in terms of their leadership capacity.
What they want is a fighter. They want somebody who will fight their battles for them. They want somebody who will take on the left, the
feminists, the, you know, woke ideology, and who will fight for them, who will protect them and who will advance their aims. And that is who Trump is
and that's who Trump promised to be for them quite explicitly.
Now, back in 2016 it was kind of unproven territory at that time. It wasn't quite clear if conservative Christians would embrace a man like Trump who
so clearly did not live up to any of their moral standards that they claim to hold so dear. This is the moral majority after all. These are family
values voters, right?
And so, Mike Pence was maybe a bit of an insurance policy, or it wasn't quite clear that he didn't actually -- that Trump didn't need Mike Pence,
because they were after the fighter. And Pence did not stand up and fight when it mattered for Trump, when it mattered to overturn the election,
right?
And so, Pence very much fell out of favor. A lot of conservative Christians I know say, oh, he's a good guy. You know, those who aren't rolling their
eyes at him for being too weak might say he's a good guy, but he's just not what this country needs right now, right? We need a strong man. We need
somebody who will do whatever it takes to preserve this nation and to restore their understanding of Christian America.
MARTIN: Is this a moment in time or is this something that is just -- has become such a feature of American Christianity that it is going to be a
force for some time to come?
DU MEZ: You know, it's both. It's a culmination is what it feels like to me that this agenda is not new. These aspirations are -- we can trace back
to the Heritage Foundation was founded in the 1970s, and the Christian right has been advancing this kind of mission for generations now. But this
is very much a moment, because they are now poised to essentially take control of the country and the very mechanisms of our democracy. And that
is what is new here. That is what is different.
And so, we -- you know, in the past, sometimes you had Ronald Reagan winning the White House and the Christian right is celebrating and the
Heritage Foundation offers him a mandate for leadership, and we've had that in the past, but what we haven't had is this plan and a likelihood of them
achieving this goal if they win the White House of completely restructuring our democracy, completely restructuring our federal government, and it's
not clear what is on the other side of that. It's not clear if we will have another election where we can just reverse things or if that puts us on an
entirely new trajectory in this country. And I think that's the real question when we look at Project 2025 and when we look at the November
election.
MARTIN: Professor Kristin Kobes Du Mez, thanks so much for talking with us.
DU MEZ: Thanks so much for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: And finally, baking and breakdancing are having a moment as Paris prepares for the Olympics. A popular boulangerie in the city of
lights baking Olympic rings right into its own bread crust. The owner says that he hopes the loaves bring joy to his customers as they gather for the
games.
And in an Olympic first, break dancers will be in competition this year, including Ukrainian athlete Oleg Kuznetsov. With his country at war, Oleg
says that he and his fellow athletes hope to be a voice for Ukraine. That was a great video.
Well, that does it for now. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
