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Amanpour
Interview with Two-Time Tennis Olympic Gold Medalist and Three-Time Tennis Grand Slam Winner Andy Murray; Interview with French Sports Minister Amelie Oudea-Castera; Interview with "The Other Olympians" Author Michael Waters. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 25, 2024 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour" in Paris. Here's what's coming up.
Let the games begin. We have a special show as the Paris Olympics kick off. First --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDY MURRAY, TWO-TIME TENNIS OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST AND THREE-TIME TENNIS GRAND SLAM WINNER: I love tennis, but I'm not able to train and prepare as
well as I used to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- two-time Olympic tennis champion Andy Murray joins us as he announces Paris will be his farewell to the profession.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMELIE OUDEA-CASTERA, FRENCH SPORTS MINISTER: We are very focused. Very concentrated. We have very well prepared, but we know it's a heavy
responsibility on our shoulders, but we're up to the challenge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- can sport unite a fractured France and a fractured world? I ask the sports minister, Amelie Oudea-Castera.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL WATERS, AUTHOR, "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS": It strikes me that we've been having the same conversation kind of over and over again, and often a
race. All of this is the athletes themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: "The Other Olympians." Author Michael Waters tells Hari Sreenivasan about the gripping true stories of pioneering trans and
intersex athletes competing in the 1930s.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Paris where the Olympic Flame is making its way through this city of light before
tomorrow's opening ceremony.
A hundred years since they held their last summer games, that was 1924. Athletes from 206 Olympic national teams are descending on the French
capital as the world tries to unite around the Olympic ideals of excellence, respect, and friendship.
These games will see the return of superstar champions, like the British diving prodigy, Tom Daley, the Jamaican sprinter, Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce,
and of course, the American gymnast, Simone Biles. It'll be an Olympiad like no other with new sports such as breaking, also known as break
dancing. And for the first time ever, there will be gender parity. More than 10,000 male and female athletes competing side by side.
My first guest tonight knows these games very well. The British tennis star Andy Murray is the only man to take gold twice in men's singles. We met
here earlier this morning ahead of his training for this event. His final professional competition.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Andy Murray, welcome to the program.
ANDY MURRAY, TWO-TIME TENNIS OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST AND THREE-TIME TENNIS GRAND SLAM WINNER: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: It's a big deal, this, right, not only are you in the Olympics for your country, but you're retiring after this. Are there all sorts of
mixed emotions?
MURRAY: Right now, not really. A couple months ago, I definitely was -- I was unsure about when I wanted to finish, or if I wanted to finish. I was
finding the -- you know, making that decision quite difficult and obviously consulted, you know, my family and my team. But ultimately, you know, the
decision had had to come from me.
And -- but as I'd like to sit here today, I'm really happy about it. I'm happy that I get to finish playing in Olympics with, you know, my -- you
know, I consider a lot of the tennis players on our team like close friends of mine and getting to be around them and, you know, have great memories
from the Olympics. So, I'm -- you know, I'm happy about it.
AMANPOUR: You know, I'm -- we're all obviously really watching this business of age and retirement. Obviously, Joe Biden has stepped off the
stage. You know, Nadal, we don't know what he's doing. Federer has stepped off the stage. He did a whole movie about his retirement. We don't know
what's going to happen with Djokovic. You know, everybody in your profession seems to have so many injuries.
You're obviously young. You know, you're being forced --
MURRAY: I don't feel it.
AMANPOUR: You don't feel it?
MURRAY: No.
AMANPOUR: How do you feel?
MURRAY: I mean, mentally, I still feel young, but physically, you know, the last few years have been really hard for me. I've had gone through
quite a lot of surgeries. You know, had a lot of injuries. And yes, and that's why I'm ready to finish playing because, you know, I'm still very
competitive and I want to be out there. I love tennis, but I'm not able to train and prepare as well as I used to.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: Here we are at the Olympics. You are a two-time Olympic winner, gold medalist. You've won Wimbledon twice. You won the U.S. Open twice, 46,
you know, titles and you've been number one and you helped your country win the Davis Cup in 2015. How do you feel today about your accomplishments on
and off the court?
MURRAY: I'm really proud of what I've achieved. I've worked extremely hard throughout my career. I've given, you know, I feel like as much as I could
to my profession. I -- you know, I feel like I've worked hard. And I'm proud of what I've achieved.
Obviously, you know, when you look back and reflect on things, well, the way I am, there's always things I wish I'd done a bit differently probably,
and there's a few regrets in there, but on the whole, yes, I did as best as I could, and I'm comfortable with that.
AMANPOUR: And what do the Olympics mean to you? Because it's somewhat different than a Grand Slam event, mentally, I suppose, in terms of
teamwork.
MURRAY: Yes, it is different, and I've always fed off that. I've really enjoyed the whole team, you know, atmosphere, and you know, that's been a
big reason for why I've played some of my best tennis. And, you know, when I've competed for my country it's -- you know, you're playing for something
just bigger than yourself and I've really enjoyed that.
AMANPOUR: And you ended a 77-year drought in men's singles winners at Wimbledon. I mean, that must have felt incredible as well.
MURRAY: I mean, when I look back at it, yes. I mean, it was -- there was - - you know, it was an amazing day for me. And I think for, you know, sports fans in the U.K. had been -- you know, like you said, it's been a long
time. At the time, I didn't take it in as much as I wish I had done. I just I felt so relieved to finally -- you know, finally have done it. Had come
close quite a few times. And I guess that was sort of almost what I felt, like I was -- my whole career was sort of building towards, was trying to
win Wimbledon. And if I hadn't have done that, I probably would have felt like I'd failed in some way.
And because of that, I didn't fully appreciate it. I just kind of -- I was like just relieved that it happened. But then, when I looked back, like a
few weeks later, I was like, well, it doesn't end here, like I keep going. You know, what next? It was quite -- you know, it's quite strange feeling.
AMANPOUR: What about fans? I mean, you know, I wonder whether there's a lot of burden you feel or you have felt throughout your career. You know,
you have a really funny and sometimes grumpy demeanor on court.
MURRAY: Sometimes is a polite way of putting it. Yes.
AMANPOUR: And then you are funny and the crowd loves you. And I remember that long, crazy match in the Australian Open, I don't know, ended at 3:00
in the morning or something crazy and you got this huge ovation and everybody stayed to watch you. What have you taken from the crowd
throughout your career, from the beginning and then as you got better and better?
MURRAY: Yes, that's probably the thing that I'll -- well, I'll definitely miss that a lot, when I finish, like, I think anyone that's playing in
professional sport, like you want to be playing on the biggest courts and you know, in front of -- I never minded if the crowd were for or against
me. It was just playing in brilliant atmospheres and --
AMANPOUR: Really, you never minded?
MURRAY: Yes. No, no. I mean, if I was playing in the U.K. and the -- you know, the crowd weren't behind me then, you know, you would probably feel
that a little bit. But, you know, when we're playing Davis Cup matches away from home and playing sort of hostile environments, I -- yes, I loved that.
I enjoyed that. And there's some of the matches that you remember, the most really.
AMANPOUR: It's weird for some of us who like and enjoy sports. And then, we see, for instance, let's say the British soccer team, football team, you
know, they're often hated or lionized. And I just wondered, why do you think people are like that sometimes with their own teams -- fans, I mean,
and the media and the tabloids?
MURRAY: Yes, it's a fine balance. Like, obviously, like trying to win Wimbledon, you know, I got close quite a few times before doing it. And
each time you lost and didn't quite get there, it felt like there was almost like a backlash, a disappointment for not achieving that when
actually, you know, making the final of Wimbledon, like big picture is a brilliant result, really. You know, when, you know, the football teams have
come close and not quite done it. I don't know, like, I'm not sure exactly why there is, you know, a big sort of backlash or negativity around that,
but it's definitely there. And, you know, for sure, the athletes you know, they feel that.
AMANPOUR: Throughout your career, do you feel you've been supported, not only by your own team, obviously, and your family, but by competitors? I
always -- especially tennis, don't you all end up in the same locker room, you travel.
[13:10:00]
You know, it's quite interesting to see how you get out there and it's, you know, mano a mano combat for several hours on the court. But then, there's
the handshake, obviously. And then there's, I guess, the socializing and the friendships afterwards, and despite it all.
MURRAY: Yes, and it is like a big family traveling with each other and there's -- you know, I've had disagreements and issues over the years with,
you know, not lots of players, but, you know, it has happened. But then, now that I'm coming to the end, I sort of wish I hadn't or tried to resolve
some of them sooner because, at the end of the day, it's sport and it's -- you know, it's not that important in the big picture. It feels at the time
to us like it is. But, yes, it's like one big family traveling and, you know, you want to be respected and liked by the people that you're working
with.
AMANPOUR: You know, you bring up something interesting, want to be liked. Everybody says Djokovic is big, sort of, maybe his mental frailty is
wanting to be liked.
MURRAY: Yes. Look, I think it's obviously at times it's been difficult for him because, you know, Nadal and Federer, before Novak became the -- you
know, the best player in the world. And, you know, in terms of Tyson and everything, the best -- you know, the best male player. You know, he's won
of the most Grand Slams and had an unbelievable career that, you know, Rafa and Roger was -- you know, we're so loved and had a brilliant rivalry. I
think Novak has huge support around the world.
But yes, I think at times it has been difficult for him to not maybe feel the same support from the crowd as Rafa and Roger got. But, you know, he
still does have massive support around the world. I think he's extremely well respected, you know, not just in tennis, but in world sports because
of all of -- you know, because of all of his achievements.
And I think at times it's -- he's thrived on that as well. You know, when the crowd hasn't been behind him, he's played some of his best tennis and
his best matches when that hasn't been the case. So, in a strange way, it's maybe helped him achieve more. But yes, I think it -- you know, it's been
hard for him at times.
AMANPOUR: So, you've been -- you know, on Safari we talk about the big five, the big five, you know, beasts that you try to find. There was the
big four at Wimbledon, you and Rafa and Federer and Novak. What was it like being part of that pantheon of real greats and for a long time? And now,
I'm afraid you're all sort of -- well, you're leaving, Federer's left. As I said, we don't know about Novak and Nadal.
MURRAY: Yes. I mean, look, I didn't achieve anything close to what any of those guys did. But there was a period where, you know, often we were
competing at the latter stages of all of the major events. And look, it was -- to be successful in this period has been very hard. You know, not many
players managed to win Grand Slams and, you know, get right close to the top of the rankings.
I mean, like I said, it's been amazing what all three of them have achieved in the same period. I don't think that we'll see that level of dominance
again tennis. But yes, I'm proud of the small part that I played in that. And I think the achievements that I had in this period, yes, it mean a lot
because of how great those guys have been and how hard it has been to win major events during this period.
So, it's been special to see how they've also driven each other to go to the levels that they have and achieve what they have. So, yes.
AMANPOUR: And who would -- if I asked you who you would bet on, who you would see as the next great, is it Alcaraz, who's already great? Is it
Sinner, who's already great? Well, he's number one. Who is it in the men and the women in fact?
MURRAY: Yes. So, it's always difficult because you don't know the next sort of 16, 17-year-old that's coming through. I won't have watched them
play and I don't know, maybe there's some younger players that come through in the next few years that are better than all of the players at the top
just now.
But for me, I love watching Alcaraz play. He's obviously achieved great things. So, it's easy to sit here now and say that. But when I watched him
and played against him the first time a few years ago, I just loved the way that he went about things. He's got a great game. And he's already won four
majors and I think will win many more, providing he stays healthy.
And on the woman's side, Iga Swiatek. She's -- you know, she's a brilliant, brilliant player. She's done extremely well on, you know, particularly on
the clay courts. And, you know, she can make a few adjustments on the other surfaces. I would expect her to go on and win lots more majors.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: It was noted when you took a woman coach, Amelie Mauresmo, and you were, I think, the first male player to have a female coach. And then
came out all these -- you know, you really put yourself noticeably behind equality and equity for women in this sport and maybe throughout life. What
is it that made you not only have those feelings, but actually speak about it and promote the women's game as well?
MURRAY: Well, it wasn't something I'd really -- you know, when I was in my teenage years or like early 20s on the tour, it wasn't something I'd given
much thought to. I was focusing on my own career and wasn't, you know, thinking about much, much else to be honest.
And then, when I started working with Amelie, things changed for me quite a lot because obviously recognized there was a big change in attitude in
terms of -- well, the way that players in the locker room were talking to me about her. And, you know, even people part of my team.
AMANPOUR: Negatively.
MURRAY: Yes, negatively. You know, the media were obviously very interested in the story. But each time I lost, I got asked a lot of
questions about my coach and Amelie have never experienced that before. And, you know, I realized that this was different. And around that time, I
started to have a few more conversations with my mom about what it's like. She's worked in tennis for a long time as, you know, a female coach. And
some of the difficulties and challenges that she's had and -- you know, it was quite eye opening for me. And that was sort of when I started to
realize that things needed to change a bit.
AMANPOUR: I mean, even at the French Open this year, it was noted that a lot of the good women's matches were during the day and never in the sort
of prime-time slot in the evening. Do you think that there is a way still to go, even though in the Grand Slams they have equal pay?
MURRAY: Yes, I think there is still a way to go. But I also think that tennis is one of the best sort of global sports in terms of how they treat
men and women. It's definitely not perfect, but I feel like tennis should probably celebrate that side of things more the fact that there is equal
pay, that the men and women are always -- you know, particularly at major events are always competing on the same stage together.
And I think that's one of the brilliant things about tennis and shouldn't be, you know, looked on negatively. I think it's a positive thing. It's a
great message. And I fully support that.
AMANPOUR: You mentioned your mother, the famous Judy Murray, who coached your brother and has been, as you say, a power in tennis and as a female
coach. Now, tell me what it was like being baby Andy Murray, you know, in the grips of your mom who turned you into this. Did you want to do it?
MURRAY: Yes. So, me and my brother, my memories like of us growing up, we just played all sports together. Well, that was table tennis, squash,
gymnastics, golf. You know, some of these sports we do with our dad. Our dad played a lot of squash and golf. And that's -- you know, me and my
brother would play that with him. In our holidays, we'd -- it was just -- we just played sport. That was what we love doing.
Me and my brother are 15 months apart in age. And obviously, with their mom being a tennis coach and particularly coaching younger players, she had an
understanding of how to teach, not just tennis, but, you know, other sports and hand-eye coordination and things like that.
So, yes. Just we grew up in that environment. And, you know, our parents, they never pushed us to play tennis. There were times when my brother
stopped playing tennis for six months and was playing golf. And I was focusing more on playing football than tennis. But yes, at one stage, you
know, we both decided that that was what we wanted to do. And our parents, you know, were unbelievably supportive.
And although at times money was tough, like they did everything they could to give us a chance to -- I went to train over in Spain when I was 15. My
brother went to train in France when he was 14, 15 as well. And yes, they supported us as best as they could and gave us a chance to, you know, live
our dream, really.
AMANPOUR: Apparently, it's been said in the press that your mother wants to create a -- I don't know whether it's a Murray Center or a center, a
tennis center in Dunblane where you were born and where you came from. And Billie Jean King said she hopes the LTA and others will help support that.
Do you think that that will happen? Is that something that you will also get behind?
MURRAY: I hope that it happens. Whether it will or not, I don't know to be honest. But yes, my mom has been trying for a long time to try and have,
you know, a center that's, you know, there for the community. Yes, to have some form of legacy for what me and my brother have achieved throughout our
career. That hasn't been the case in Scotland yet.
[13:20:00]
And obviously, with me and my brother coming to the end of her career, I think it's something that my mom has really, really wanted. And with me and
Jamie finishing playing soon, you know, we'll have the opportunity to be up in Scotland more. And, you know, I will always love tennis and always want
to be involved in it. And, you know, we'll try and help, you know, the next young, you know, British tennis players as much as I can. And yes, I think
it'd be good if there was a tennis center up there.
AMANPOUR: Many people try to trace back where does drive and ambition and turning point moments in young people's lives come from. Obviously,
everybody knows what happened in Dunblane, the worst British school shooting ever in history at your school. Do you, when you look back, think
that that gave you drive?
MURRAY: I mean, it's impossible to say. I think that there's certain things that I would have learned from that throughout my upbringing through
my life. It was obviously unbelievably difficult time. But, you know, the way the whole -- sort of the whole city and community, you know, came
together in a really difficult, extremely difficult time and has, you know, eventually never fully recovered, but has become stronger through that.
Like, I definitely learned some -- a lot of strong values from -- you know, from that.
You know, I also -- I think also from growing up with a brother very close in age that that's something I was constantly competing with him as well.
And you know, I think that that would have helped sort of grow my competitive instincts, competitive drive. Yes, that is hard to put your
finger on one thing.
AMANPOUR: Billie Jean King, who I know you admire a lot, has said pressure is a privilege. And yet, it seems that pressure is so intense now. Maybe it
was different when she was, you know, at her height. It seems it's even more obvious now on it on all sports, especially tennis, because you play a
very long season, I mean, a long year. Is pressure of privilege?
MURRAY: I think it is providing you -- well, you have to manage pressure in the right way. You know, I've found playing tennis at times, you know,
very -- you know, very stressful. You know, the competing side of things. In the moment, it's not something I'm really enjoying, but the reward at
the end of it when you win is brilliant. When you lose, you know, it's hard and you need, you know, strong team around you to support, you know,
support you through that.
But yes, I think it has changed now. There is a lot of focus on sports and, you know, everyone knows how tricky social media and things like that can
be to manage at times. But yes, it should be. And, you know, I'm aware now, like looking back, how lucky I was to be in the position that I was to
compete for Wimbledon or Olympic games and things like that. And if you can remind yourself that when you were a child or when you were first starting
out as a professional athlete, that, you know, you would have signed up to be -- you know, to be in this position and play on the biggest arenas and
stages in the world, you know, you'll be OK.
AMANPOUR: And if your four kids wanted to go into tennis or any other competitive sport, what would you say?
MURRAY: Yes, I would -- I'm not saying I would just push them towards tennis, but I would encourage them to be involved in sport. I think it
teaches lots of amazing lessons in life. You know, I got to travel the world as a tennis player from 11, 12 years old and experienced things that
I would never have experienced, you know, if I wasn't playing in sport, I think.
It teaches you about, you know, winning and losing and how to work hard and how to, you know, recover from setbacks and teamwork. So, yes, if they
wanted to be involved in sports, I would definitely encourage that.
AMANPOUR: Andy Murray, good luck in the Olympics. Thanks for being with us.
MURRAY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Andy Murray getting ready to play in the doubles for the British team. Now, every Olympics draws the gaze of the entire world and managing
these games also comes at a sensitive time for France. Its politics remain divided after a snap election denied the far-right becoming the majority
party in parliament.
I asked the French sports minister Amelie Oudea-Castera about her labor of love getting Paris ready for the world's athletes and sports that are meant
to rise above politics.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Madam Minister, welcome to the program.
AMELIE OUDEA-CASTERA, FRENCH SPORTS MINISTER: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: So, look, it couldn't look more majestic, beautiful, unbelievable, but you've been preparing for ages. What is your feeling
right now on the eve of the opening ceremonies?
[13:25:00]
OUDEA-CASTERA: Well, it's a mix of stress, because we want everything to be perfect. Excitement, because we know we are ready. And a will, an
authentic will, to really give happiness to the whole world through that opening ceremony and these Olympics. And to give, you know, a sense of
pride to the French people.
AMANPOUR: It's interesting you say that at this time because there's so much to be unhappy about and to be nervous about in the world. So, you're
right. These sports do -- and we're hearing all the police fans and all the security. Security is always an issue. Can you assure the French people and
the athletes and the spectators that this is 100 percent safe?
OUDEA-CASTERA: We've put all efforts to secure that. We've been anticipating all types of threats. We are monitoring them extremely closely
with the greatest attention. We have also mobilized a very wide number of security forces, either on the -- I mean, on the public side with 45,000
security forces, almost 20,000 military forces. There will be for the opening ceremony 6,000 private security officers. We also rely on
international cooperation on a number of key expertise.
We have put some security perimeters well in advance to secure that we control every move, all identities. So, we really have aligned all the
conditions to make it a very, very safe place.
AMANPOUR: Does anything worry you in the lead up? We've heard of some arrests, some concerns. Is that normal run of the mill for any of this kind
of big events?
OUDEA-CASTERA: Yes, that's the normal run. I mean, it's good that we find difficulties. We've identified people that should not be there or present
some risk, not very intense risks, but it's good that our measures prove effective.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
OUDEA-CASTERA: We are watching, you know, every single detail and trying to control all what we see. So, I'm really confident, I want to say, how
honored we are to welcome the world. We know it's a complex, fragmented, and dangerous world. We know there are some possible attacks. We know there
are, you know, some threats again. And we have done everything under the leadership of the Ministry of Interior Affairs and the Minister Gerald
Darmanin to make sure that we are everything is controlled.
AMANPOUR: And now, for something more mundane, or not, the water, the sand, which is the site of the opening ceremonies. There's wonderful
pictures of you, along with the mayor, Anne Hidalgo, swimming, not too long ago, a couple of weeks ago, and you've paid a huge amount of money and
effort to cleaning it up, because it's hugely polluted. Are you absolutely sure that it's safe? No E. coli, no nothing right now?
OUDEA-CASTERA: No, it will be absolutely safe. And, you know, we monitor every day, even, you know, twice a day, the quality of the indicators, the
thresholds, their evolution, their resilience to changes in weather conditions, and I can say that we're going to be ready. We're going to be
ready as soon as July 30 for the triathlon and then for the swimming in the sand, the swimming marathon. And we will also be ready for the Paralympics
at the end of the summer.
It's been, as you mentioned, a very large project with heavy funding from the state. Overall, the state, together with the local authorities, we've
invested EUR1.2 billion in that ambition. But we are very, very proud to be realize that, you know, we've completed 100 percent of our action plan.
AMANPOUR: And it will be -- even though many other cities who've hosted the Olympics have fabulous rivers running through them, it will be the
first such Olympics, right, where the river is such a central part of the games and of the opening ceremony.
OUDEA-CASTERA: Yes. And it's going to be beautiful. And what's more, it's going to be useful for the French people and for the tourists and visitors
from all over the world, because in 2025, we will authorize the swimming, the bathing for everyone. So, you will be able to enjoy, when you come to
Paris next summer, a wonderful dive in the sand yourself.
AMANPOUR: Are you serious?
OUDEA-CASTERA: I am.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to hold you to that. I want to ask you also about some of the controversies. As you know very well, there is a young French
athlete who took to Instagram. Her name is Sounkamba Sylla. She's a French sprinter. And she has been barred from wearing the hijab in the opening
ceremonies when the athletes come in.
[13:30:00]
She wrote, you're selected for the Olympics, organized in your country, but you can't participate in the opening ceremony because you wear a headscarf.
Now, obviously, the Olympics call for respecting all religions, and France has this laicite rule. Are you trying to figure out a way that she can be
included? And if so, what will that be?
OUDEA-CASTERA: Yes, and the issue is solved.
AMANPOUR: It's solved?
OUDEA-CASTERA: Actually, that athlete, Sounkamba Sylla, she will be able to participate in the opening ceremony. Exactly the same way, as in a few
weeks ago, through dialogue, explaining the rule, explaining why that rule exists, it's based on our French constitution. It has to be respected.
Because when you're an athlete, representing the French team, you are assimilated to sort of public agent, public civil servants.
And based on this, you need to stick to very neutral rules, meaning that you're not allowed to wear religious or political signs. So, we explained
that very extensively to Sounkamba, explaining why, where does it come from? It's not at all the will of a government. That's the law. And we need
to obey by the law. And she understands perfectly that when you're an athlete representing your country, I mean, you need to be exemplary.
So, what we discussed with her is the fact that, you know, she can wear something, but not something that can be assimilated to a religious symbol.
AMANPOUR: I see.
OUDEA-CASTERA: Because it's --
AMANPOUR: So, she could cover her hair somehow?
OUDEA-CASTERA: Yes, she will -- I mean, together with the LVMH ho is preparing all the ceremony closes for the athletes, they have find a way so
that she feels good, but she respects laicite.
AMANPOUR: So, it's a win-win?
OUDEA-CASTERA: That's a win-win and we're happy. I always say when you're benevolent, when you're constructive, when you're pragmatic, you can have
like a solid respect of your rules, but while finding the right, you know, avenues.
AMANPOUR: You can find a solution.
OUDEA-CASTERA: And find solutions. Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: You know, and talking about standards and controversies, a convicted child rapist is playing on the Dutch beach volleyball team. And
I'm just trying to figure out who makes the rules, who has the standards, because we have a Japanese athlete, a gymnast, who's been sent home for
drinking and smoking. There's a British equestrian who's been dropped by the British team for a four-year-old, we think, video of her hitting a
horse, et cetera. So, about this kind of situation.
OUDEA-CASTERA: Well, the Dutch person, I mean, I've just been made aware of that. So, it's not easy for me to comment right now. What I can tell you
is that, of course, as a woman, I am shocked to imagine that someone that has raped a little girl or a child of the Olympics. But from what I
understood, he spent time in jail. He made a number of excuses, treatments. So, we need to check. We need to further understand the situation.
AMANPOUR: Apologies?
OUDEA-CASTERA: But I want to say -- apologies. He's made some as well. But I think what is important to remind is that the decision to select an
athlete is taken by the National Olympic Committee. So, in that case, the Dutch National Olympic Committee. It's not at all the responsibility of the
French states.
AMANPOUR: This has been a very difficult year in politics for your country. President Macron made a dramatic political gamble to try to keep
the extreme right, the far-right out of power. And to an extent, it's, it worked. But there's a -- we still don't know who's going to be the next
prime minister. The president has a lot of political work to do, he says, after the Olympics are over.
Can you talk a little bit about the tumultuous politics, and were you afraid that that might overshadow the Olympics, that they could have thrown
a spanner in the works? I mean, all this happened just a few weeks before the opening ceremony.
OUDEA-CASTERA: Well, what I can say is that --
AMANPOUR: You are a minister.
OUDEA-CASTERA: -- you know, I mean, politics, political life, you have ups and downs, difficulties. I think the French people have been very strong in
sending a message that they do not want the far-right, the extremes to really command and drive the country.
This was a message made clear by the French people. And I think at a time where we welcome the world, where we want to send a message of openness, of
audacity, of peace, of concord this is very important to remind that.
[13:35:00]
What I want to say also is that yes, it's been intense week on the political side, but it never jeopardized the quality of the preparation
because we remained highly focused. I was not involved in the campaign personally. So, I kept working with all the teams to really secure that,
you know, every step was doing -- was done the way it had to be done.
Now, I think it's an opportunity both for the country to reunite, to take a deep breath, to enjoy sports, to be proud of their athletes, to be proud of
themselves, to realize that France is a great country capable to do great things, et cetera. And on the other side, I think it's also a useful moment
for the political parties to keep working together to find the right combinations, the right solutions so that we have a workable, you know,
plan and secure that once the Olympics are over, we can go on and keep driving the necessary reforms.
AMANPOUR: Finally, Celine Dion has been noticed in Paris. Is she going to perform at the opening ceremonies?
OUDEA-CASTERA: I'm not going to answer to that question because I want, you know, to keep the surprise. We've been holding those secrets for
months. I'm not going to crack down now just, you know, the day before. But she's not here just by chance.
AMANPOUR: OK. Well, you nearly gave away the secret. Madam Minister, thank you so much indeed.
OUDEA-CASTERA: Thanks to you.
AMANPOUR: Thanks for being with us.
OUDEA-CASTERA: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And the minister is a former athlete. And when it comes to gender and sex in sport, the conversation can often be fraught. At this
year's Games, trans athletes are subject to stricter rules and regulations than before. Though this may seem like a recent issue, it's actually a
topic that goes back to the 1930s.
In his new book, "The Other Olympians," historian Michael Waters details the stories of trans athletes who competed back then. And he joins Hari
Sreenivasan to speak about the challenges they faced.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. Michael Waters, thanks so much for joining us. You've got a new book out.
And in the Olympic spirit here, it is called "The Other Olympians: Fascism, Queerness and the Making of Modern Sports."
And what's interesting to me about it as, you know, a casual fan of the Olympics is when you think of 1936, the storyline you usually think of is
Jesse Owens, there is in Berlin, being hosted by the Nazis, but you found the really fascinating alternate story that I'd never heard of. You talked
about these two athletes, trans athletes, who were there at the time and they publicly transitioned. Tell me a little bit about the athletes that
you profiled.
MICHAEL WATERS, AUTHOR, "THE OTHER OLYMPIANS": Yes. So, I wrote about Zdenek Koubek, who is this Czech runner who won gold in this competition
called the Women's World Games, which was like a rival to the Olympics in the 1930s. His main sport -- so he was assigned female at birth. He played
in women's sports before transitioning, and his main sport was the 800 meters, which was not available at the Olympics at the time, because there
are very few sports for women at the Olympics, especially in track and field in the 1930s.
And so, he wins gold at really the highest level of competition available to him in 1934, and he sets a new world record in the process. And, you
know, he's kind of like -- he becomes this sort of like local sports celebrity in Czechoslovakia, where he's, and perhaps throughout Europe.
And essentially what happens is after winning gold, he steps away from sports for a bit, and he sort of decides to wrestle with these like
questions he's always had about his own self-identity. And so, after winning gold, he steps away from sports and he starts consulting a doctor
about the possibility of transitioning.
And he has these consultations and then he decides that going forward, he's going to be living as a man. And then, in late November, 1935, he announces
to the Czech press that, you know, he's transitioning gender and living as a man and wants to play in men's sports in the future. And a few days
later, in early December, that news gets picked up globally, and it just becomes this really big international news story for several weeks.
And then, eventually, you know, throughout, the whole of 1936 year when the Berlin Olympics happened, all talking about this athlete who transitioned
gender. And so, Koubek was the first, but there -- a few months later, there's this other athlete who was a little bit less successful, but
similarly was assigned female at birth, played in women's sports. His name was Mark Weston. He was a British shot putter.
[13:40:00]
And in May, 1936, so several months after Koubek transitioned he too gave this interview in which he said that he was living as a man. And so, you
know, together, they really created this global news story in 1936, you know, that summer right ahead of the Olympics about, you know, just like
the meaning of transition and of these categories of male and female, you know, themselves, which I think you saw the press talking about in this
really interesting nuance way, really, for the first time.
SREENIVASAN: What was that coverage like? I mean, you know, it's hard for us to imagine how the world was almost a hundred years ago, but how were
people approaching the idea that someone who was born a woman who would want to be competing in men's sports?
WATERS: Yes. So, I mean, the -- so 1935 and 1936, when this was happening, you know, this was an era before there was a concept of gender as this like
psychological socialized identity distinct from biological sex. And so, you know, when these athletes were written about, it was purely in terms of the
body.
But, you know, the mid-1930s are also kind of the end of this era of really visible queerness in a lot of cities in Europe, in the U.S. especially,
and, you know, you had in Germany, which was, you know, right next door to Czechoslovakia, you had Magnus Hirschfeld, who was this really prominent
sexologist who offered medical care to trans and intersex people in the 1920s and 1930s. And, you know, he helped to bring forward these ideas
that, you know, perhaps there is a lot more to understand about the body and about what we call gender today and about transition themselves.
And this is also an era where, like, you know, every few months there is a new discovery about the body and about sex and sexuality. And so, I think
the public was quite primed to see -- like -- to like accept the idea that there was more than they generally understood about how, sort of, like, sex
worked and how these categories of male and female worked.
And what really struck me is that a lot of the coverage of Koubek and Weston, these two athletes who transition gender, is quite empathetic. And,
you know, they definitely -- they got the pronouns wrong. They use some words that we wouldn't use today to describe these athletes. And there was
certainly like a fair bit of sensationalism of these athletes and of this idea of transition.
But, you know, through it all, I think there's this real curiosity from the public and from journalists about, you know, like what it means to move
between these categories.
SREENIVASAN: Tell us a little bit about another athlete that you write about, Helen Stephens.
WATERS: Helen Stephens, she's kind of forgotten compared to Jesse Owens, but she was probably like the second most famous American athlete at the
Berlin Olympics in 1936. So, she is this track runner from Missouri. And she, you know, is this woman -- you know, they didn't have that term then,
but like, we can identify as a cis woman today.
And she sort of -- because of a childhood accident had this, like, very deep voice. You also had just like big biceps, she was often sort of
noticed for her perceived masculinity. And, she -- basically, in 1936, at the Berlin Olympics, she's one of the top U.S. athletes. She eventually
wins the gold medal at the same day as Jesse Owens wins his gold. And there's all this scrutiny, you know, sort of in part because of these -- of
Koubek and Weston, these two athletes who transition gender. There's all this sort of extra scrutiny and this heightened scrutiny on women's sports
and on athletes who are just like perceived to be masculine in some way.
And Helen Stephens has always been -- has always sort of dealt with this, but it really comes to a head at the Berlin Olympics. And there's this new
story, it's -- after she wins gold, there's this new story published about her in this Polish newspaper that essentially accuses her of being like a
man in disguise. And it's not totally clear what happened, but at the very least you saw for the first time in the press this idea of like examining
people to determine whether or not they should be in women's sports and really coming out of this moment of fear mongering about this really
prominent American athlete.
SREENIVASAN: There's an interesting character you write about, kind of -- it's sort of behind this interest in figuring out how to test athletes. His
name is will Wilhelm Knoll. Tell us a little bit about him. Who is he? Who was he?
WATERS: Yes, so, so Koubek transitioned -- like announced that he was transitioning gender at the end of 1935. And like I said, you know, it
becomes a global news story that is written about, you know, really with this sense of curiosity about the possibilities of transition.
[13:45:00]
And so, while the public is just kind of curious about, like, OK, it's literally, like, how is it possible to move between these categories? Like
what are the medical advances that that sort of allow this, you do see this small group of sports officials who have a very different reaction. And the
most prominent among them is Wilhelm Knoll, who in January 1936, writes this op-ed, essentially accusing Koubek of being a fraud and deceitful in
some way.
And Knoll seemed to take issue with the fact that Koubek had been in women's sports at all. And Knoll, just for some background context, you
know, he was a quite influential sports doctor in 1936. He was the head of this group of sports doctors who advised, you know, the IOC, the Track and
Field Federation. This is a very early era of sports science. And so, he, just by nature of having that position, had a lot of cachet.
He was also a registered Nazi at the time. And he was really an ardent believer. You know, he taught at a university and he wore the brown shirt
uniform to classes. And he -- you know, like, separately from Koubek, he had all of these writings about how he wanted to eliminate Jewish athletes,
athletes of color from sports in general. So, he just kind of has a tendency because of his belief in eugenics to push out athletes. And he saw
Koubek and this possibility of transition as some kind of threat. And you know, something that needs to be weeded out.
SREENIVASAN: Tell me, you know, for people who might not be paying attention to kind of the history of how these policies have evolved, what's
happened in the world of international competition when it comes to identifying gender or trying to figure out if there's an advantage? Because
it seems that we've shifted away from, you know, kind of a physical exam into slightly more scientific measures.
WATERS: The original policies were, like you said, they were just physical exams. They would have strip test women athletes. Again, it's not really
clear like what were they looking for or which kinds of bodies would be allowed, which wouldn't? That was never outlined in these early years.
You know, eventually that ran into a lot of problems. And so, as sex testing grew, sports officials began embracing a chromosome-based test,
which essentially would try to sort of delineate athletes by, like, measuring their -- they're testing their chromosomes. The problem was, you
know, there are a lot of like athletes who would probably identify as cis women today who have like a multiplicity of chromosomes. They were just
sort of quietly expelled from the Olympics in the like '60s and '70s and into the '80s. There's a lot of backlash to this. So, the policy switched
over to testing hormone levels.
And today, what we have is kind of a grab bag of different policies. So, the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, which makes a lot of these
overarching policies, they've actually said that they no longer want to set the terms of eligibility for women athletes, and they released a statement
in 2021 that actually talked about wanting to have more inclusion of trans intersex women in sports, but they left it up to the individual federation.
So, like, the Track and Field Federation, for example, to sort of govern their own group of sports separately.
And what has happened is that, in a lot of cases, these policies have become quite restrictive and have banned, like, nearly -- in many cases,
banned nearly all trans women from competing in the Olympics, also have set really hard limits on women who might fit on an intersex spectrum, and even
cis women who have high testosterone levels limitations on whether they can play and how they can play, but it really depends now based on sports.
So, the current policy is really different depending on what sport you look at, but that same concept of we're going to regulate, like, which kind of
women can compete, I think you can sort of draw a direct line between 1936 and today, even as the policies themselves have gotten very different and
the things that are being tested has gotten very different.
S SOARES: In an op-ed that you wrote for "The New York Times," you mentioned, this summer at the Paris Olympics, sex testing policies will be
in some ways even more extreme than in years past. Why is that?
WATERS: Yes. Well, I think that's in part because of the fact that these international federations, these sort of like sports organizations that I
mentioned that govern something like track and field or swimming have actually gotten stricter on eligibility requirements.
[13:50:00]
So, if you just look at a track and field, for instance, a few years ago at the Olympics, there was a path to inclusion for trans women athletes in
track and field. It would involve, like, keeping your hormone levels, like, in a certain range. So, it was difficult, but there was a way for a trans
woman could theoretically compete.
Now, the Track and Field Federation has basically gotten rid of that entirely and all but banned trans women. And so, I think you see kind of a
similar story in a lot of different sports, which is that these policies are getting stricter, even as the IOC, which is kind of like the top of
this governing bureaucracy, sports structure, even as the IOC is saying, we want more inclusion, you know, not a lot of the sports federations have
taken the hop on that.
SREENIVASAN: You know, this has been such a topic for American political culture wars. One of the core concerns for people is this notion of
fairness. And in competitions like, say, track and field, it's literally who gets across the line first and whether or not someone has an inherent
advantage perhaps because of their biology. What's the problem? Is there a problem in that thinking?
WATERS: There is so much fixation on trans and intersex women in sports, and we don't have that same kind of dialogue about many other kinds of like
perceived advantage that are just sort of baked into how we think about sports. So, if you think about something like basketball, you know, it
certainly helps to be tall. We're not trying to regulate the heights of basketball players.
Even when you think about these efforts to regulate testosterone levels in women, you know, we don't do the same thing in men's sports. And if the
idea is that, you know, testosterone levels confer some kind of unfair athletic advantage, you know, men have the same diversity of testosterone
levels as women, so why wouldn't we also limit like men's testosterone levels? It doesn't really make sense to go down that path.
That's not even to mention, you know, someone like Michael Phelps, who's born with this really specific genetic condition that gives him like a long
wingspan that also happens to be perfect for swimming. You know, or some of these more like invisible types of advantage like class, you know, early on
in your sports career, you know, whether you can pay for trainers or to go to some kind of summer camp and work your way up in sports can really
influence, you know, whether you can make it to this elite level.
And all of this is just to say that, like, I think a great thing about the Olympics is it brings together a lot of different people from a lot of
different backgrounds and experiences and people who sort of exist on the spectrum of bodies and experience that we all do and there's some things
that we can't regulate and we accept that we can't regulate.
And I think, to me, it is quite telling to see the fixation on trans women in sports and intersex women in sports specifically, and also, cis women
with high testosterone levels in a way that we don't fixate on any of these other things throughout the history. It strikes me that we've been having
the same conversation kind of over and over again, and often erased from all of this is the athletes themselves and just, you know, their humanity.
And then, also, just like the immense skill it takes to get to the point where you could maybe go to the Olympics. You know, these are all athletes
of, like, unbelievable skill who've put in years and years of their lives into this sport. And so, to me, it's just kind of unthinkable that we would
then say, actually, you don't meet this sort of subjective, everchanging definition of woman, and so, therefore, you can't compete.
Yes, that's -- I guess that's sort of what I've gleaned from looking at the history.
SREENIVASAN: The book is called "The Other Olympians: Fascism, Queerness, and the Making of Modern Sports." Author Michael Waters, thanks so much for
joining us.
WATERS: Thank you for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, tonight, as we said earlier, these Olympics mark a historic homecoming for Paris. The first time it's hosted the Summer Games
was a hundred years ago, back in 1924. An Olympics that has been embedded in cinematic history ever since. Because the American swimmer back then,
Johnny Weissmuller, shot to stardom after winning three gold medals here in Paris, and then he went on to star in 12 Tarzan movies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jane Parker. Understand? Jane. Jane.
JOHNNY WEISSMULLER, AMERICAN OLYMPIC SWIMMER AND ACTOR, "TARZAN": Jane. Jane. Jane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Jane. You? Jane.
WEISSMULLER: Jane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you? You?
WEISSMULLER: Tarzan. Tarzan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tarzan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: But perhaps most famously, the story of the British runners headed for glory at Paris 1924 was the inspiration for the legendary film
"Chariots of Fire." So, who knows, perhaps the cinema heroes of tomorrow will be born over the next few weeks right here.
That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can always find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can also
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from Paris. And we want to leave you with a little "Chariots of Fire."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
