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Amanpour
Interview with Harvard University Law Professor Randall Kennedy; Interview with "Unit X" Co-Author Raj M. Shah; Interview with "Unit X" Co- Author Christopher Kirchhoff; Interview with Afghanistan National Institute of Music Founder/Director Dr. Ahmad Sarmast; Interview with Member of Afghan Youth Orchestra Zohra Ahmadi; Interview with Member of Afghan Youth Orchestra Ali Sina Hotak. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 09, 2024 - 13:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE: Let me just say, the American people deserve better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Kamala Harris' historic bid for the White House. Harvard Law Professor Randall Kennedy reacts to the racist attacks on the vice
president.
And, the sound of defiance. Members of the Afghan Youth Orchestra join me three years after the return of the Taliban.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPHER KIRCHHOFF, CO-AUTHOR, "UNIT X": We could end up with a military that might not be as survivable in a conflict of the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- "Unit X," Raj Shah and Christopher Kirchhoff tell Walter Isaacson how the Pentagon and Silicon Valley are transforming the future of
war.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL PHELPS, U.S. OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: There are times where I feel like I am all alone. But in reality, we all know that now that we're not
alone. Mental health is real and it's OK to not be OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- important insight from the most decorated Olympian of all time. We revisit Christiane's conversations with star swimmer Michael
Phelps and other American gold medalists.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Well, just as soon as Kamala Harris' presidential campaign began nearly four weeks ago, so, too, did the ugly, age old racist attacks, starting, of
course, with the top of the GOP ticket, Donald Trump. The Republican candidate for president questioned his rival's race in a sit-down interview
with black journalists. Here are those shocking comments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She was always of Indian heritage and she was only promoting Indian
heritage. I didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black. And now, she wants to be known as black. So, I
don't know. Is she Indian or is she black?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Vice President Harris, no stranger to this kind of ugly rhetoric, responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE: Today we were given yet another reminder. This afternoon Donald
Trump spoke at the annual meeting of the National Association of Black Journalists. And it was the same old show. The divisiveness and the
disrespect. And let me just say, the American people deserve better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Randall Kennedy is a law professor at Harvard and an expert on the history of race and politics. And he joined me with his insights from
Cambridge.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Randall Kennedy, welcome to the program. As we know, you're a leading scholar and historian on racial politics, and it's notable that in
your 2021 book, "Say It Out Loud," you wrote this, I do not expect in the remainder of my life to glimpse, much less enjoy, a progressive racial
promised land.
And here we are. Now, we have Kamala Harris, a biracial woman, half African American, half Indian, who was named the new Democratic presidential
nominee to challenge Donald Trump. I'm wondering, given this, does that progressive racial promise land that you said now looked out of reach? Is
it once again in reach in your view?
RANDALL KENNEDY, LAW PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: I'm very hopeful at this moment. I think that this is a moment that is filled with promise. We
have a sitting vice president of the United States who is a black woman. She is now the standard bearer for the presidency, for the Democratic
Party. She has a very good chance of prevailing. And, of course, throughout American life, there are many examples of African American and other people
of color who are in positions of influence, positions of authority, positions of respect. And I think that that bodes well for our democracy
and says a lot about the promise of American life.
GOLODRYGA: Her race, her gender aside, it is interesting that just a few months ago, there were true questions about whether or not she could carry
a ticket. And now, you see the momentum that has built, and many are comparing it to what we saw in 2008 with Barack Obama's campaign, thus far,
she hasn't skipped a beat. Are you surprised with how quickly we've seen a turnaround in confidence in her leadership?
[13:05:00]
KENNEDY: Well, I think that she has probably surprised many people. I mean, as vice president, of course, she was, you know, number two and that
position always puts someone in the background. But in the time where she's come to the fore, she has certainly shined. And I think that many people
are delighted by the way in which she has united her party and is putting herself forward as the possible leader of this country in the upcoming
election.
GOLODRYGA: And -- yes. And the fact that Joe Biden is no longer on the ticket and now, we have Kamala Harris on top of the ticket, that seems to
really have rattled Donald Trump. And he has now been forced, it appears, to go back to his old tricks. Just last week at a National Association of
Black Journalists Convention, he once again went there, speculating about her race, suggesting that she's not actually a black woman, that she is
indeed Indian. And we know that she is biracial. She has never hid from that fact, that her mother was Indian, her father's black Jamaican.
And yet, here Donald Trump was once again doing what he's done in the past. Were you surprised to see him go there?
KENNEDY: No, I wasn't surprised. It's not that he's going back to his old tricks, this is part of his program. This is part of his ongoing rhetoric.
He has never departed from his policy and his practice of racial resentment. He's been very successful, unfortunately, in pushing racial
resentment. But that's what he's doing.
You mentioned birtherism. Of course, there are two things about birtherism. Number one, of course, it's untrue, his claim about, for instance Former
President Barack Obama being born outside of the United States. It's untrue, and people should know that. But people should also fasten on a
second point that I don't think has gotten enough attention, and that is that our constitution does say that you cannot be president of the United
States if you were born abroad. If you -- you have to be a natural born American citizen.
It seems to me that's a bad thing. And I hope that sometime in the future that part of our constitution will be changed because there are millions of
people in the United States who have given their all for the United States and anybody who is a citizen of the United States, natural born or
naturalized should be able to vie for the presidency.
GOLODRYGA: On that issue of birtherism, I'd like to play some sound that we've compiled of some of Donald Trump's previous statements, questioning
where Barack Obama -- President Obama was born, and then we'll talk on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The fact is, if he wasn't born in this country, he shouldn't be the president of the United States.
There's a real question about the birth certificate.
Three weeks ago when I started, I thought he was probably born in this country. And now, I really have a much bigger doubt than I did before.
Why doesn't he show his birth certificate?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, we know that ultimately did lead Barack Obama to show his birth certificate. I'm wondering in terms of how you think is best for
Kamala Harris and her campaign to respond to these attacks once again, these veiled swipes at her ethnicity, at her background how much emphasis,
how much effort should she put in combating this?
KENNEDY: Well, in my view, I think that she should be straightforward in responding, but I would not allow Donald Trump's racial resentment to mire
her candidacy. I think that she's got a lot to propose. I think she has a wonderful vision for the future of our country. I think that she should
push that, she should push the positive.
Again, not -- you know, I don't think that she should be quiet in the face of these attacks, but they should -- she shouldn't spend all of her time
responding to his baseness. I think that she should look up, go forward, be positive, appeal to the best in the American people.
[13:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: We know that prior to her nomination to the ticket there had been some, I guess, concern within the Democratic Party that still, while
the majority of the black vote in the United States was Democratic, that we'd seen an increase over time, particularly with black men, to vote, or
at least be curious about Donald Trump.He -- even -- sometimes appear to be wooing them as well.
And yet here, now that his opponent is Kamala Harris, I can't see how in any of his attacks he's doing anything to bring on more black voters. What
do you make of -- and I'm raising this because there's new polling, new Reuters/Ipsos polling suggesting that since Kamala Harris has been named to
the ticket that she is drawing more support among black Americans. Do you think that any inroads that Donald Trump may have been making now have been
shattered?
KENNEDY: Two things. Number one, anybody who listens to Donald Trump should be very aware of his of his reach, of his willingness to tap into
racial bigotry. So, certainly the targets of racial bigotry in the United States ought to be turned off to him. That's number one.
Secondly, I think that there has been a tremendous amount of energy, positive energy, unleashed in favor of Kamala Harris and her ticket. Ad I
think that's going to continue and I think that's going to carry her over the top. I certainly hope so.
GOLODRYGA: How do you think she can continue this momentum now that the VP pick has been named and the ticket is firm in place?
KENNEDY: I think that she simply should continue to do actually what she's been doing. And that is to set forth very straightforwardly, very clearly
her vision for the future and talk to people about the things that they care about. Talk to people about the environment. Talk to people about
jobs. Talk to people about education, making education more affordable. Talk to people about medical care. The things that people care about.
She should talk with people and show that her policies will be better for them than the policies of the Trump ticket. I think that if she does that,
and I think that she will do that, and I think that she will prevail.
GOLODRYGA: Randall Kennedy, thank you so much for the time today. We appreciate you joining us.
KENNEDY: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And now, it's the stuff of movies. What will waging war look like in the future? Well, our next guest can tell you. Raj Shah and
Christopher Kirchhoff launched an elite Pentagon unit aimed at integrating cutting edge technology into the U.S. military. Their book is called "Unit
X: How the Pentagon and Silicon Valley are Transforming the Future of War." And here they are with Walter Isaacson.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you. And Raj Shah and Chris Kirchhoff, welcome to the show.
RAJ M. SHAH, CO-AUTHOR, "UNIT X": Thanks for having us.
CHRISTOPHER KIRCHHOFF, CO-AUTHOR, "UNIT X": Thank you, Walter.
ISAACSON: Raj, let me begin with you. There's a wonderful scene of you piloting an F-16 fighter during the Iraq war. You're on the border of Iraq
and Iran. Tell me what epiphany you have about what happens then.
SHAH: It was a very interesting time, Walter. So, it was my first deployment in 2006, and it was my first glimpse of really understanding how
divergent the Department of Defense's way of buying technology and developing it was from the commercial world, particularly around software.
So, I'm deployed there. Our missions are to support ground troops, often on the border, and we're flying at 500 miles an hour in a circle. And while
the F-16 is an amazing airplane, it at the time did not have a moving map GPS. So, I could look down the screen and tell you which side of the border
I was on.
ISAACSON: Wait a minute. This is a type of thing that back then I had in my car, right?
SHAH: Exactly. So, that same year, while I didn't have it in the jet, I could take the predecessor to an iPad and have that in your car or in a
civilian airplane I was flying. And so, many of us there in the squadron had these, you know, iPads in the in the ready rooms for playing games. And
so, we would strap them to our legs and fly with them because it helped us stay on the right side.
ISAACSON: Then you go, I think, to Qatar a decade later. And tell me how things had improved.
SHAH: So, a decade later, I had the chance to visit with you, which was a wonderful trip, the command center that ran air -- all the air operations
for Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. And candidly, it hadn't really changed that much since when I was in uniform that -- a decade prior.
[13:15:00]
And we saw a lot of the different applications and processes that people doing. There was one that was most interesting, which was how do you plan
where an air refueling tanker should be to give gas to a fighter jet? And that plan was being done on a whiteboard, with magnetic pucks and dry erase
markers, and it would take this team of officers 60-man hours a day to make that plan.
And so, this is one, on that visit, that with the help of the defense innovation board, we said, we'll go solve. And so, the unit Chris and I
helped run built software, to automate that system. And what we discovered at the end was by using this automated system, we could save three or four
scrambles a day. And what that means is, because the system was so hard to transform, every time a soldier came under fire from an adversary, they
would scramble fighters to protect him, then you would have to scramble tankers. And those tankers were sitting at bases around the region.
It saved three or four a day. Each one of those costs about $250,000. The tool paid for itself in just a matter of a week, but more importantly, it
started this revolution of software factories and an emphasis on how important software is for the military.
ISAACSON: And it was part of the Defense Innovation Unit Experimental. And, Chris, you got involved with it as well, not from a military
background. Tell me how you got involved and what you thought when you're on these trips with Raj.
CHRISTOPHER KIRCHHOFF, CO-AUTHOR, "UNIT X": Well, you know, in 2016, it was such a moment in technology. You had companies like Amazon, you had
companies like Apple and Microsoft. And, you know, Walter, each of those companies had a market capitalization that was itself bigger than the
entire U.S. defense industry combined.
And so, what that means for the Pentagon is that the locus of innovation, which, you know, used to live in labs like DARPA and other military R&D
labs a generation ago, the locus of innovation had completely shifted to the commercial sector.
And so, Secretary Ash Carter, who founded Defense Innovation Unit and appointed Raj and I to lead it, he recognized this trend, this generational
shift, and he knew that that for the military to keep accessing the best technology in the world, it would have to become, in his words, a fast
follower of the commercial sector.
And so, Defense Innovation Unit was established to access that whole other technology economy that in 2016 was not doing business with the Department
of Defense.
ISAACSON: Let me read something from the mission that you all had when you were helping to found this unit. Our mission was to disrupt and transform
the culture of the largest and possibly most bureaucratic organization in the world by infusing its clogged arteries with the nimble, agile DNA of
Silicon Valley. In other words, to hack the Pentagon.
First, the Pentagon. Why were the arteries so clogged?
SHAH: I think, you know, these two worlds had just drifted given the advancements of technology. So, the systems that the Pentagon had and still
have are really good for buying an aircraft carrier. Something you're going to keep for 50 years. And you really want to make sure that all the
planning and sustainment is done well.
But when you think about the advancements of software and how fast it changes, right? Our iPhones get updated on a daily basis. Our systems
weren't -- were not built for that. And, you know, the real reason behind that is if you think back into the '70s and '80s and when we won the Cold
War, military and government R&D was the largest source of innovation in the world, right?
It would trickle down from that to the commercial world. That's completely flipped because of the huge consumer market for iPhones, for drones, for
commercial technology. And so, all the great R&D is happening in the private sector. And so, our systems needed to be reformed to be able to
take advantage of that.
But, Walter, there's one other really key thing, right, because at the end of the day, this is a human -- these are human endeavors, right? There are
people on both sides that need to work together. And so, when Secretary Carter came to talk about his desire to build DIU in the Valley, it was the
first time a sitting secretary of defense had come in 20 years.
This was also just after the Edward Snowden revelations of how, you know, our intelligence agencies were, you know, collecting information. And so,
there was a massive amount of mistrust. And so, that was part of our mission as well, was how do we just bring these worlds together? And so, we
had to really rebuild relationships.
[13:20:00]
ISAACSON: I remember reading in the book, it was so fascinating that Congress becomes a problem for you. You go to the Hill and they say, wait,
you're spending this money with these companies in Silicon Valley. Why don't you spend it in Indiana, which is a District I. So, what's the
problem with Congress? Does it make it worse, Chris?
KIRCHHOFF: You know, it was a challenge, Walter. We're not going to say otherwise. In fact, you know, so Secretary Carter flies out an Air Force
Two, some of the most powerful people in Silicon Valley come to our unveiling when Secretary Carter names Raj and I. And two days later, we get
a phone call from a friend of ours in the Hill that says, I have some news to share. Your budget's been cut. And we said, well, what do you mean? How
much has it been cut by? And he said, that's the thing. You've been zeroized. Your entire budget has gone away. Your unit is being shut down by
Congress.
So, our first trip to Washington, it was supposed to be a victory lap. We were supposed to be meeting with the service chiefs, the service
secretaries to figure out what their top priorities for us to work on were. And instead, we ended up meeting with two junior staffers on the House
Appropriations Committee who had decided for petty reasons of their own that they were going to nix Secretary Carter's high-profile initiative to
get back at the guy.
So, that's just one illustration of how much DIU had to cut against the grain, not only with Congress, but also, frankly, with the Department of
Defense. Many of which, many of whom in the department were skeptical that Silicon Valley could actually provide technology that they could rely on in
war.
ISAACSON: Are you worried that too much innovation could lead to humans not being in the chain someday?
SHAH: It's a really interesting debate, Walter, as to where does the line as A.I. and autonomy continue to grow? And the department's been pretty
clear that for a life-or-death decision, there's always a human in the loop. But I think, Walter, you also highlight a rapid change in how warfare
and how we're going to deter war is occurring.
Chris and I had the opportunity to visit Ukraine in October to see firsthand how drone warfare is just changing our ways of thinking about
conflict. So, for example, just recently, it was revealed that we had sent 31 M1A1 battle tanks to Ukraine. These are the most sophisticated tanks in
the world. And 25 percent of them had been disabled by Russian kamikaze drones. So, they've had to withdraw all of them from the front lines.
So, here's a situation where, you know, since World War I, you know, mechanized armored warfare has been our mainstay and now cheap, low-cost
drones are challenging that. And so, we're going to have to rethink our whole way of how we fight and what are the right tools that we're going to
equip our men and women in uniform with.
ISAACSON: Well, wait. Let me push you on the moral question. Suppose you were able to develop something that used visual and face recognition and
pattern recognition, and it was 10 times more accurate than some, you know, human pushing a button, do you think we should go to all autonomous
warfare?
SHAH: These are challenging questions, Walter, that we're going to have to deal with. You know, if you think about it, where if autonomy is going to
lower collateral damage, it's going to make us more accurate. You know, those are all good things. So, how do we incorporate that yet still have
humans ultimately making the decision?
And I think, look, the other thing is our adversaries, right? They have a vote in this matter, too. So, if a potential adversary is using this
technology and they're using it differently than maybe we are, how do we respond to that? And how do we do it where we maintain our, you know, sort
of American liberal western values yet ensure that we deter conflict?
This is something that people that both understand technology as well as understand warfare need to come together. And I think, again, this is where
things like the Defense Innovation Unit will have an important role to play.
ISAACSON: So, Chris, among other things that happened in Ukraine when the war begins is all of our defense satellites, all the commercial satellites
get totally wiped out by the Russians, except for Starlink, by SpaceX. And suddenly, you're depending in Ukraine on a private commercial company that
does it better. Is that a good or a bad thing, Chris, to have to say, wait, we don't need Boeing and Lockheed to do it. We can contract these things
out to nimble companies who can do it better?
KIRCHHOFF: Well, Walter, it certainly is a thing. You know, and as you write in your biography of Elon Musk, the fact that a company like
Starlink, controlled by a single individual, who, you know, is now making decisions about who to extend service to and who not to extend service to
is a new reality in the world.
[13:25:00]
And again, this is a part of the shift that Raj and I confronted firsthand of the technology ecosystem met to service the consumer market, just
exploding in size. And so, increasingly it's going to be private companies like SpaceX, like Palantir, like the new breed of Defense Unicorns, Andarol
(ph), to Palace Space, Shield AI, that are going to be producing really powerful technology that will be central to how the U.S. military defends
the country.
ISAACSON: Wait. Let me push back on that because I read in your book when you have all these grants going out, instead of going to all these startup
and venture backed companies, most of the grants are going to the big bloated old defense contractors doing cost plus things like Lockheed and
Northrop Grumman.
KIRCHHOFF: Well, Walter, you're exactly right. You know, the Department of Defense has a long way to go. So, at one level, it's made very impressive
strides, even in the last 12 months, by elevating the unit we used to serve with, Defense Innovation Unit, to a direct report to the secretary of
congress enshrined its mission and law.
The budget of Defense Innovation Unit is now a billion dollars a year, with even more money being spent on it through the replicator initiative, the
most important initiative started by Secretary Lloyd Austin to develop autonomous swarming drones. So, all that is good. But Walter, you are
right. If you look at what percentage of the Department of Defense budget is actually going towards new systems rather than legacy systems, it's
still a fairly small fraction.
And we are at risk as a country, because if we are spending most of our money on things like tanks, which now can be demonstrably defeated by low-
cost drones, or for that matter, aircraft carriers, which as we know, are at increasing risk of being defeated by weapons like hypersonic missiles,
we could end up with a military that might not be as survivable in a conflict of the future.
And so, I think people like Raj and me and other people at Defense Innovation Unit are going to be looking to see how much of the defense
budget continues to swing towards this new generation of companies and weapon systems and how much of it swings away from the traditional weapon
systems that for years we have procured.
ISAACSON: You talk in the book about the civil military integration that happens in China. Are they doing it better?
SHAH: Well, they're being more directive, right? So, China can go to any startup and say, you're going to have a CCP member on your board. And in
time of war, we're going to push you, right? That's not how we do business here in America.
I think our version of civil military fusion is working closer with places like Silicon Valley, putting those companies under contract, and try to
incorporate that technology. And really, you know, I think the American system of free flow of capital, free flow of talent is really how we win,
and we double down on that.
And I think we're already seeing that with generative A.I. and the rise of those great companies here and not in Russia or China.
ISAACSON: What implications do these different approaches to defense innovation have in relationship to our competition with China, and
especially the fact that so many chips are made in Taiwan?
KIRCHHOFF: Well, Walter, it used to be said that wars were fought with steel, and it's very clear today they're going to be fought with silicon.
And so, it is unquestionably a major security vulnerability in the United States that all the advanced chips we use to power our automobiles, our
phones, our computers are made essentially in a series of fabs that exist on the east side of Taiwan facing China, 70 miles off the Chinese coast.
And so, that's a great worry. It's the reason why the U.S. has passed the Chips Act, and it's something that we need to all focus on as a nation to
make sure that it's not just Taiwan that has the capacity to make the most advanced chips.
SHAH: And, Walter, maybe if I'll add to that, you know, as we think about this competition and this supply chain and manufacturing, this is where
having friends is important. We have a lot of allies in Europe, in Asia, and I think doubling down on those alliances, not just from a military
standpoint, but also from a manufacturing standpoint, will allow us to meet this challenge and continue to prevail.
ISAACSON: Are we integrating generative A.I. into our weapon systems fast enough, Chris?
KIRCHHOFF: You know, Walter, we are beginning to. There's a task force called Task Force Lima in the Pentagon that is working very hard to
experiment with generative A.I. However, you know, the whole reason why Ash Carter created Defense Innovation Unit is because the U.S. military
essentially missed every major wave of technology in the 2010s.
[13:30:00]
It missed the rise of modern software development. It missed cloud computing. It missed the shift to mobile. It also missed the rise of
artificial intelligence. When DIU is in operations, the Department of Defense's computers and cloud computing infrastructure couldn't even run an
A.I. program because they weren't robust enough.
So, I think we all have to watch very closely at whether the department is going to take generative A.I. up aggressively. And the reason why they
must, Walter, is that, you know, this is the one advantage our nation has. It's -- you know, a lot of people, China, Iran, Russia can take cheap
hardware and build autonomous systems.
And in fact, if you look at China's manufacturing base, it's many times the size of the U.S. manufacturing base combined with the European
manufacturing base and that of our allies. So, what then is going to be our comparative advantage? It's going to be generative A.I. and integrating
that in better and more innovative ways in new weapon systems.
ISAACSON: Raj Shah, Chris Kirchhoff. Thank you all so much for joining us.
SHAH: Thank you.
KIRCHHOFF: Thanks Walter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Now, as the Paris Olympics come to a close, we want to look back at Christiane's interviews with some of the best Olympians in the
world.
First, the most decorated of all time, Michael Phelps. While he was picking up medal after medal at the pool, few knew that the star swimmer was deeply
struggling with his mental health. Phelps is now a proud advocate of therapy, and Christiane asked him about it in early 2022.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL PHELPS, U.S. OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: I have had struggles through the pandemic, some of the scariest moments of my life, just, again, the
uncertainty. And, you know, for me, I'm very fortunate that I have been able to build my sort of network that I can kind of reach to when I go
through a difficult time.
You know, I think we have seen a lot of people open up about mental health over the last five years. We have been able to see mental health on the
forefront of a lot of conversations. And that's something that we never saw before. And I think it's been pretty incredible to see the movement, see
the movement grow as it has, but also, just being able to share the stories and read other people's stories that we're hearing, because I think that's
the biggest way that we're going to be able to help one another to get through these difficult times.
My dark days look like dark days. They look like I want to climb into a black hole and be left alone. And there are times where I feel like I am
all alone. But, in reality, we all know that now, that we're not alone. Mental health is real. And it's OK to not be OK.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: You have a foundation. And you have made it now your life's work. You have even said
that it might be more important to you than winning all those Olympic medals if you can help people go through the mental health challenges that
you went through and that too often are dismissed and not taken seriously and not looked after.
Talk to me a little bit about that, and how that compares or stacks up for you against being the greatest or the most heavily decorated Olympian of
all time.
PHELPS: Well, I mean, for me, I think it's as easy as -- saving a life is more important than winning a gold medal. I was able to win gold medals
while struggling through the darkest points of my life. I realized that I wasn't alone and there are other people out there that are going through
the same exact thing.
So, yes, I mean, it's -- yes, I think it's just understanding that it's real. You know, like that's the biggest thing, because I want to help
people try to be their authentic self every single day. That's something that I try to do in my mission sort of every day too, because, for a period
of my life, like, I looked at myself as strictly an athlete and a swimmer and not a human being.
And, for me, going through some of the work that I have done, I have been able to learn about my emotions and my feelings and kind of nurture them
and care for them, because they rise for certain reasons. And I have been so used to compartmentalizing and stuffing them down because of me being me
and being an athlete and a competitor and can't show that vulnerability side.
So, yes, just trying to live your authentic self, your authentic, best self every single day is what I try to do. And, yes, as you heard, there are
days that aren't very good. There are days that are really scary. But the good days are so much better than I could ever imagine and ever dream of,
that I just love being able to talk and share about mental health more.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Now, to gymnastics. Simone Biles went to Paris in search of a comeback and to nobody's surprise, she pulled it off. Big time. Scoring a
gold for Team USA and a gold in the individual all around. We all remember that stunning moment during the Tokyo Olympics when Biles withdrew from the
competition after getting the twisties. Christiane spoke just after that with Biles' former teammate, fellow gold medalist Aly Raisman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Aly Raisman, it's really interesting to hear somebody who's been called the greatest gymnast of all times talk about how she couldn't
actually perform what she was trying to perform.
[13:35:00]
Tell us how that happens for somebody of that experience, at that level, you know, under that -- I guess that pressure, but somebody who's trained
and trained for that?
ALY RAISMAN, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: Yes, well, you know I also just want to remind people that Simone Biles is human and every single athlete no
matter how successful they are, every single athlete has good days and bad days and every athlete has performances that they look back, they wish they
did better.
But to be honest, getting lost in the air, which is, you know, as Simone said, she was going for a two and a half twist and ended up doing a one and
a half twist, that's actually very common for some gymnasts and it would happen to me sometimes in my gymnastics career. It's just unfortunate that
it did happened in the team final at the Olympic games.
But, you know, it could have been anything. I'm curious, whenever Simone is ready to share, if she can think about why she got lost. Sometimes there's
no reason behind it. Sometimes you just get a little bit confused in the air. I think gymnastics is one of those sports where, you know, someone
like Simone makes it look easy, but it's actually in fact very difficult.
And so, when you think about what she's actually doing a two and a half twists, sometimes what happens is you're in the air and you kind of lose
track of, have I done a half twist, have I done two twists? It gets a little bit confusing.
So, it is in fact actually very common. It's just -- you know, I think it just shows, unfortunately, that even the best athletes in the world, they
have good days and bad days and I commend her for her bravery and speaking up and doing what's right for her and what she felt was right for the team.
It's not easy. But, you know, even the greatest athletes of all time, they're not perfect and they're human, too.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Now, to tennis. Serena Williams won 23 Grand Slam titles, as well as four Olympic gold medals in her extraordinary career. But perhaps
the greatest challenge for a world class athlete is knowing when to say goodbye.
When Christiane spoke with Williams in 2022, she was chasing an elusive 24th Grand Slam title, while already planning how to evolve beyond tennis.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So, I have to ask you about your tennis career. Are you still committed to beating that record and beating Margaret Court and getting the
magic 24?
SERENA WILLIAMS, 23-TIME GRAND SLAM TENNIS CHAMPION: You know, I'm committed to me right now. I love tennis and I love, you know, what I do.
And right now, I just had to -- I have to commit to me. And what does that mean? I don't know. I still play tennis, obviously, and I still train and,
you know, but I think I'm the kind of person who's like, well, honestly, I should have been at like 30 or 32. So, that's kind of how I look at it. But
you know --
AMANPOUR: So, you feel you've done it in some sort way sort of way?
WILLIAMS: I haven't done it. I haven't done it at all or else I would've done it, right? Let's just -- that's what it is. But I don't know. I should
have had it, really. I should have had many opportunities to have it, but I'm not giving up to answer your question.
AMANPOUR: That's amazing. It is actually amazing because you've gone through such a lot and wear and tear on your body as well. You couldn't
take part in the Australian because of injury. Will you be at Paris?
WILLIAMS: Well, Paris --
AMANPOUR: At the Open?
WILLIAMS: Paris is one of my favorite cities and I actually love the clay. So, so I will -- we'll see what happens. Hopefully my body -- if my body is
holding up, then I'll definitely be there.
AMANPOUR: So, I'm obviously asking you this question, but does it bum you out? I mean, does it tick you off that people keep asking you this
question? Is it too much pressure? Is it unreasonable? Do you think that you've had enough of people asking you this question about the record?
WILLIAMS: As our friend says, pressure's a privilege.
AMANPOUR: There you go, Billie Jean King.
WILLIAMS: You know, what's the alternative is having someone ask about no record, you know? And I think I think that's a privilege. I would rather
you ask me that, to be clear, any day. You -- anyone is allowed to ask me that any day as opposed to the alternative of having like three or six or
10 or 15. You know.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes.
WILLIAMS: So, I enjoy that.
AMANPOUR: Good.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And last to U.S. Soccer star Megan Rapinoe. The gold medalist became a fan favorite at the 2012 London Olympics. She's been using her
stardom to focus on equity. As she told Christiane during the height of the pandemic in 2020, just following the tragic killing of George Floyd.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: I fulsomely described your activism, your -- you know, your campaign for justice and, you know, you're hitting this moment in a very
visible and determined way. Is that right? I mean, is that what you want people to know you for now?
[13:40:00]
MEGAN RAPINOE, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST: I don't know really what I want people to know me for. But I believe that we all have a responsibility to
make the world a better place. You know, do what you can with what you have and do as much of it as you can. I clearly am very lucky to have a platform
to get to play for the United States and to be able to take on some of these issues.
So, I've personally just, you know, find it interesting. And this is the stuff that I like to do and talk about. But really, I think at the heart of
it I think that we can live in a more fair and equitable society. I think that we can have a better life, and I think we don't have to live, you
know, particularly with what's happening right now. I don't think we have to live in this world. I think it can be better.
And so, for me I try to use all of the resources or platform or, you know, microphone, if it's given to me, to do what I can to make the world a
better place.
AMANPOUR: What has it been like in lockdown for you? I mean, you haven't really been able to train. I mean, it's been difficult for a lot of sports
people. How are you coping with lockdown?
RAPINOE: It is very strange. I think pretty much since I went away to college, I've been like on a yearly schedule. And I'm 35 years old now. So,
someone could do the math on that. I think very early on, I tried to just take the approach of the attitude like what can we do?
I wasn't going to stress out about not being able to train or play games. That obviously wasn't possible. So, you know, with technology, you know,
with the capacity of the platform that I have, what can we do to, you know, make our voice heard or to help out in some way? Sometimes it's providing
comedic relief. Sometimes it's speaking up about, you know, the racial injustice and, you know, the protesters in the streets and supporting them.
You know, and now, the TV show, which I'm very lucky to have.
But I think it was just like, you know, nobody can control this moment right now, so how do you make the best of it and just try to stay level
headed through it all?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And finally, nearly three years since the Taliban came back into power, the oppressive regime has cracked down on a number of civil
liberties, including music. Silencing those who play and enjoy it.
Members of the Afghan Youth Orchestra sought refuge in Portugal and are now returning to the international spotlight, performing in New York's Carnegie
Hall and the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: The group's founder, Dr. Ahmad Sarmast and two young musicians, Zohra Ahmadi and Ali Sina Hotak join me to share what music means to them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Ahmad, Ali, Zohra, thank you so much for joining us. The last time you and I spoke things were very dark,obviously, it was the return of
the Taliban. There was a lot of concern about what this meant for your safety, for the future of music and the orchestra and the country.
Let's start on a positive note, and that is that you are here in the United States, in New York, you'll be playing before Carnegie Hall and then in
Washington, D.C., as well at the Kennedy Center. The last time you were there was in 2013. How does it feel to be back?
DR. AHMAD SARMAST, FOUNDER/DIRECTOR, AFGHANISTAN NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF MUSIC: It's very, very much exciting to be able to be back in the United
States and also to play in these two prestigious venues, which is the dream of every musician to be there. But it's also significantly important today
for us, not only in terms of sharing the beauty of Afghan music in this wonderful music festival of the young musicians. It would give a wonderful
platform for the young musicians from around the world to meet each other, to play together, to make music together.
And what we saw in Carnegie Hall in the last four or five days, it is the world that we should see. The best, living in peace and harmony and in
happiness. But for us, coming from Afghanistan, it's not only an opportunity to share the beauty of Afghan music, but also, it's an
important tribunal to raise awareness about what's happened with music in Afghanistan, what's happened with the music rights of the Afghan people,
and what's happened with the human rights, and more precisely, the women rights of Afghanistan.
Today, there is a systematic gender apartheid taking place in Afghanistan against women. The people of Afghanistan once again, facing a cultural
genocide. Arts and culture is in a danger of becoming obsolete in my country. But being here also to play with all these orchestras and to play
in Carnegie Hall is also a beautiful symbol of solidarity of the world with Afghan musicians, with Afghan people, with Afghan women. It's a tribute to
show the beauty, to show the resilience, and to show the hope, and to inspire people.
[13:45:00]
GOLODRYGA: Zohra, you're 15 years old. You play the trumpet.
ZOHRA AHMADI, MEMBER OF AFGHAN YOUTH ORCHESTRA: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Tell us what this moment is like for you now. to be here in the United States and to play in these two prestigious venues.
AHMADI: It's a very big pleasure for me. It's a dream of me to play in the Carnegie Hall. It's like I'm very excited about it. And we hear all those
musicians playing and it was inspiring for us. And we are very happy to play at Carnegie Hall and sharing our music, our beautiful Afghan music for
the world and being the voice of a country that has no music.
And for me, it's opportunity to play -- a very great opportunity to play in Carnegie Hall and be the voice of people who can't raise their voice.
GOLODRYGA: Zohra just said something so beautiful and so tragic at the same time, Ali, to be the voice of a country without music, that clearly
wasn't always the case in Afghanistan. You're 16 years old. You play the violin. What does that mean for you as an Afghan?
ALI SINA HOTAK, MEMBER OF AFGHAN YOUTH ORCHESTRA: Well, of course, these days no one can play music in Afghanistan. And music is the most important
thing. It's peace. It's joy. It's love. It's everything for us. It's very important for us to keep our music like we should keep our music. And it's
a pleasure for me to be here, playing in Carnegie Hall with 700 musicians around the world. And this is the chance that no one have it easily.
GOLODRYGA: Ahmad, you started the institute, the Afghan National Institute of Music, in 2010. What was the purpose for you, the meaning of the
institute at the time?
DR. SARMAST: The school was established in post-Taliban, first post- Taliban Afghanistan. And therefore, we had a number of objectives to assist Afghanistan to stand on its feet. To ensure the musical rights of the
Afghan peoples, to restore the music scene in Afghanistan once again, to promote musical and cultural diversity in Afghanistan. But most
importantly, to use the soft power of music, to reunite the Afghan people and also to empower young generation and most important -- and most
importantly, the women of Afghanistan, not only in arts and culture and music, but generally.
GOLODRYGA: Zohra, when did you first start playing the trumpet?
AHMADI: I started playing trumpet in 2019.
GOLODRYGA: And what drew you to that instrument?
AHMADI: I don't know, because I didn't choose the trumpet. Like, I got -- someone offered me to play trumpet, which was my cousin. She was one year
before me there. So, first I wanted to play piano or sitar. After getting into music school, I started to realize that there is more instrument I can
play. And then, my cousin offered me to play trumpet. And I decided to play trumpet. So, since then, I play trumpet.
GOLODRYGA: So, what is your message to girls around the world, here in the United States, who take having the opportunity to play music for granted as
just a given right? It's something that's not a given right to Afghan citizens, in particular, Afghan women.
AHMADI: For them, it's really hard to live in Afghanistan, in a situation that there's no working, no studying, no music, nothing. I think I want for
American women to be -- to stand with all the women in Afghanistan and be the voice of -- be the voice of women for all of them.
GOLODRYGA: I know this is very difficult for you Zohra and I also know that because of the opportunity you have in Portugal, where you have moved
and the institute has been taken into the country to allow you to continue what you're doing, you haven't been able to see your family in Afghanistan.
You have a two-year-old sister who you've never met?
AHMADI: No.
GOLODRYGA: Can you tell me a little bit about your family?
[13:50:00]
AHMADI: My family lives in Afghanistan. But I live in Portugal with my cousin and my uncle. My family is a very open family because my uncle is an
artist. So, it was a great -- how do you say it? It was like happy place for me in Afghanistan with my family before Taliban came, after they
destroy everything.
GOLODRYGA: I just want you to know that I'm so sorry that you were going through this, but you were so brave to do what you're doing and you're
sending such a powerful message. And I believe your family must be very proud of you too.
Ali, when the Taliban came back in 2021, I would imagine that was a very dark day for you. And you probably knew that your days as a musician in
Afghanistan were numbered.
HOTAK: Yes. So, I remember those days. It was very dark days. And when Taliban took Afghanistan, we all feel so sad because the only thing we have
is music. The only thing we have to play and the only hope that we have to raise our voice and play music to the world and show our music to the
world. And that's -- that you want. It's not easy for us.
And those days -- I remember the day that the Taliban took over the Kabul, and I shocked. And I was like, for a week I was thinking about this. And it
was a very bad situation for us. And we -- I thought we cannot play again. I thought we cannot raise the voice of men and woman in Afghanistan. It was
very important for us because music is important for us and it's all that we have. We are here for the music and we are here for -- because of the
power of the music and that was dark days that we had.
GOLODRYGA: Let me finally ask you both a question and be short, but it's two questions, one for you Zohra. What is your favorite thing about playing
the trumpet? And two, what do you miss most about Afghanistan?
AHMADI: Well, my favorite thing about playing trumpet is that how can I express my feeling through the trumpet, through the notes I play in
trumpet. It's the most important thing to play an instrument, how to put your feeling in the music, how to express that.
And for the second question, I miss a lot for everything in Afghanistan. Like my home, the people, my family, like everything. I have school.
GOLODRYGA: Ali, how about you?
HOTAK: Violin is like my whole life actually. I'm living with my violin. I really love my violin and it's giving me the power to talk and to play. And
violin is such a precious thing for me in my life. And I really enjoy playing violin for people, for all the world. And it's a pleasure for me.
About Afghanistan. I miss too many things. I miss our school. I remember those days that we were with Dr. Sarmast in the same school. We were
working together. We were working hard for music, for music of Afghanistan. We had tours and like, we practiced after school. We had rehearsals. We had
too many rehearsals, orchestras, different orchestras, different repertoires, and we had too many music studios and the teachers. I miss all
of them. I miss those days that we were together without any force.
And we are here now, and I miss every single day that I went to school, I spent time with my friends, I spent time with the teachers, the musicians,
everything. Yes.
GOLODRYGA: Well, I wish very much that you get to go home back to Afghanistan with your families, a country that you love, to play the music
that you love, where you belong.
[13:55:00]
DR. SARMAST: We will go. We will go. These dark days will be gone and Afghanistan will belong to its people once again.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And that is it for now. We leave you with some more of that beautiful music. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
