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Amanpour
Interview with Representative Dean Phillips (D-MN); Interview with Survivor of FGM and Safe Hands for Girls Founder Jaha Dukureh; Interview with The Washington Post Congress Reporter Liz Goodwin. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 19, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
The stage is set for the Democratic National Convention in Chicago with a burst of enthusiasm for Kamala Harris. I'm joined by Democratic Congressman
Dean Phillips, one of the very first to warn about Biden's chances of winning.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: You can see the damage that's been done to the street here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- inside the Russian town overtaken by Ukraine, we have a special report.
Also, ahead, the fight against female genital mutilation in Gambia. I'm joined by an FGM survivor and activist there who stopped efforts to
legalize the practice in that part of Africa.
And --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIZ GOODWIN, CONGRESS REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: That aura of sort of like glamour and discussion around her made her really stand out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Washington Post congressional reporter Liz Goodwin talks to Michel Martin about the evolution of Kamala Harris and what lies ahead.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
It's all aboard and full steam ahead as the Democratic National Convention kicks off in Chicago tonight. It's where Lincoln accepted the presidential
nomination in 1860, and a slew of Republicans and Democrats have done so ever since. It's also a city of political protest, and this convention
promises more of that. Across the world, allies and antagonists will be watching carefully to get a measure of Kamala Harris' policies and grip on
the election.
Not so long ago, Democrats worried that their convention would be a rather downcast affair. But the party and the race have been completely
transformed since President Biden decided to drop out a month ago and hand the baton to his vice president.
The Democrats have been steadily clawing back lost ground, according to the latest polls and are hoping to keep the good feeling going long after this
week. With superstar party stalwarts like the Obamas, the Clintons, and Nancy Pelosi all speaking after President Joe Biden headlines opening
night. A night he, of course, had hoped to be basking in the adulation and the nomination of a grateful party faithful.
Few could have foreseen the twists and turns that led here, but my first guest got very close. Democratic Congressman Dean Phillips, was a one-man
early warning system citing President Biden's age and ability to run and win a second time. He even decided to challenge Biden by running against
him in the primaries earlier this year, and he's joining me now from Chicago. Congressman Phillips, welcome to the program.
REP. DEAN PHILLIPS (D-MN): It's great to be with you, Christiane. And let me tell you, the Windy City is living up to its name today.
AMANPOUR: Well, it certainly is, but some say the wind is about political blather. So, let me ask you what you think about all that's gone on across
the airwaves and elsewhere regarding where we are right now? And you were the first, I think, in a major way to really raise the alarm that President
Biden couldn't win again. How are you feeling now?
PHILLIPS: I got to tell you, Christiane, I hope, if nothing else, that my journey will inspire others to pursue missions of principle. I saw with my
eyes, I heard with my ears, I read the numbers in front of my face, and it was so clear to me what we were facing, sleepwalking into another disaster.
But, of course, in politics, both here and in the United States and around the world, there are rarely professional rewards for courage. In fact,
courage is often punished. And I'm feeling joyful. I was hopeful. I was excited about the possibility if we could just make that change that we
could feel like we do right now and I have no resentment, only gratitude and a great deal of excitement for what has transpired because it is never
too late.
AMANPOUR: So, get -- walk me through a little bit because, you know, as you say, I mean, I think you were sort of, let's say, outcasted by your
party. I mean, how dare you challenge the actual sitting president and the man who actually has defeated Trump and the man who actually did legislate
and put good policies according to the party through Congress What did it take to actually challenge him? What was the decision and why did you
decide to primary him, so to speak?
[13:05:00]
PHILLIPS: Well, Christiane, I had seen his decline begin in mid-2021 when he appeared in front of us at our Democratic caucus meetings. When he
decided to run for re-election, it was a surprise to many of us, a disappointment to many, not because we don't love Joe Biden. I and my
colleagues do. He's a remarkable man, did a fantastic job in his tenure as president, saved this country in many ways, shape, and form.
But in American politics and democracy we do not coronate kings and queens. It is not supposed to be about personalities. It's supposed to be about
pragmatism and winning. And it was clear that was not going to happen.
So, like I said earlier, I saw what was going on. Most of my colleagues who are running for re-election cannot take the personal risk to say that quiet
part out loud. And I called other sitting governors who I thought would be exceptional candidates. I made public calls beginning back in 2022, for
others to join the Democratic primary. But my party did not want to host a competitive primary. And that's why at the very end, just a couple weeks
before the New Hampshire filing deadline in October of '23, I decided someone had to do it and I did it myself.
And while it is almost impossible to stand up a presidential campaign in a mere two weeks, once again, nothing is impossible when you're on a mission
of principle. And I was trying to call attention to the truth. I'd hoped that the president would have debated me back then. I think we would have
discovered the challenge nine months ago instead of right now.
But like I said earlier, Christiane, it worked. That mission was the beginning. Others started to recognize the truth. And slowly but surely, I
think it gave permission to others to join me. And here we are today with an entirely new world and great optimism and excitement that you could not
even feel an ounce of as recently as just a few weeks ago.
AMANPOUR: Exactly. And as we led into your interview, we said that the race has been transformed. So, you wanted Biden to step aside. Is Kamala
Harris your candidate? Would she have been had she not been anointed by him?
PHILLIPS: Well, I'll tell you, at the time, Christiane, Vice President Harris' numbers were actually worse than President Biden's. So, at that
time, I probably would have said no. I wanted to see a competitive primary. I still believe that competition ultimately generates better outcomes. I
will always speak that truth. And I think it's important for both parties to pursue.
But in this case, she is absolutely the right candidate. The way that she mobilized and consolidated support amongst almost every Democrat in the
country within a matter of literally a few days, I think is a remarkable demonstration of her leadership.
What we have seen now, the movement in the polls, Christiane, is, I think, it does not even have a historical precedent. So, yes, she's the right
candidate. And Tim Walz, my governor in Minnesota, who I believe will be the third Minnesotan of the last six Democratic vice presidents is a
remarkably wonderful choice who is going to open the door to conversation with Americans who've been left behind by the Democratic Party over the
last number of years. So, the answer is absolutely yes, but with the caveat that competition is important, period, and we should always pursue it.
AMANPOUR: Let's talk a little bit about the issues, because obviously that is what matters in the end. Not just winning, but then what do you do with
it? So, President Biden has been successful, people say, you know, about the economy, although many people, ordinary people have -- some said they
really don't feel it so much.
What does Kamala Harris have to do on the economy? And do you think it's the number one issue? And I ask you this because The Washington Post
editorial has said, following her economic speech on Friday, that we need real policies, not gimmicks. What do you think she has to do, even at this
convention, to make voters believe that she has a handle on the economy?
PHILLIPS: Well, I think the first thing she has to do, and she will, is to recognize that the human condition dictates that security is the
fundamental need of, in this case, every American. Economic security, physical security. And that -- and you mentioned earlier, many people are
struggling. About 60 percent of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. A booming economy is not accruing to an overwhelming majority of Americans.
She will be listening, as will Tim Walz. And same as goes with security. National security, border security. I do believe Donald Trump opened that
door for Democrats to listen to what is important to a lot of rural Americans in particular that feel that they've been left behind and unheard
for a long time.
But, do I believe that this will hinge on economic policy and national security policy? Absolutely. And do I think that Kamala Harris and Tim Walz
will propose what I think this country needs? I do. And I think they're on a listening tour right now and I think they will convert what they hear
into policy action, and I look forward to doing anything I can to help them to that end.
[13:10:00]
AMANPOUR: And we were showing some pictures of President Biden with her on one of the recent joint appearances. And, of course, he will have opened
the conference tonight, the convention, and it's not going to be a legacy burnishing thing, we're told, it's going to be putting the case to why he
thinks his vice president is the best person to run the United States what, or to lead the United States. What is he going to have to say? What do you
expect he will say to that regard?
PHILLIPS: What I expect he's going to say is that, she was a prosecutor in the State of California, worked her tail off to open doors for herself
against a lot of odds. She's tough, she's principled, she's experienced. Then a United States senator, and of course, now a vice president of the
United States. There are few Americans better prepared to lead this country. And as I said, in tandem with Tim Walz, I think a remarkable
ticket.
And I also -- I think it's important that we honor President Biden. He didn't just save the United States, he restored the relationships with the
rest of the western world, including in Europe and in Asia that had really been struggling after the tenure of our Former President Trump. He should
be celebrated for that. He has given his entire professional career to this country, and I'm excited that tonight we'll be honoring a man of great
integrity and compassion, a man who called me the day I ended my campaign with some very kind words and even ended up calling my two daughters to do
the same thing.
This is an extraordinary, compassionate man handing the baton to a woman of equal competency and potential. And it's awfully exciting, not to mention
the next generation of Americans is rising. That was my argument from day one.
AMANPOUR: You know, you talk about this extraordinary handing over once the president realized that, as he said, that it was not in the interest of
his party to continue like this. So, it's, you know, not being -- you know, it's unavoidable when you see a Democratic leader, and I mean, the Democrat
Party leader who was, to all intents and purposes, having a good presidency and finally bowed to pressure from his own party. Very different to the
cult of personality, as people have described, the current Republican Party leadership and their presidential campaign.
I mean, we've talked to people who wouldn't dare tell Trump, don't run. Although, some of his former certainly national security officials say that
they're going to put the case as to why he's not up to the task. But talk to me a little bit about, do you think the Democratic Party has shown real
Democratic values and principles in this case?
PHILLIPS: Well, Christiane, I would be the first to tell you that I think we have some work to do to that end because I don't think this primary was
run in a fashion that would have generated a better outcome more quickly. Now, that said, there is a major difference between the Republican Party
and the Democratic Party.
If you look at how my Republican colleagues were treated, who had the audacity to call out the truth about Donald Trump, I think eight of the 10
of those who voted to impeach him after January 6th lost their jobs. Now, I went through some tough times and was somewhat excommunicated from the
party for a period of time. But the way that I've been greeted with high fives and hugs and handshakes and gratitude, even some apologies, really
demonstrates how different these parties are.
We make space and place for dissent. Leader Hakeem Jeffries, my dear friend and colleague, a former -- I sat at his leadership table in the House
Democratic Caucus, was an extraordinary gentleman during all of this time when I was making some enemies within the party during my run.
But here I am, being thoughtfully celebrated and welcomed back into the fold because Democrats do allow dissent discussion, debate, and
deliberation. But to your point, yes, we have to -- both parties and this country have to return to some of the key tenants of democracy. And also,
as I said earlier about -- I want to say something about Joe Biden.
You know, I was trying to be Paul Revere, the man who warned of the pending attack here in the United States during the Revolutionary War. George
Washington, of course, the first president, the only American president not affiliated with a party and the only one in the world history who actually
gave up his power proactively, very much in the same spirit that Joe Biden did.
So, that's the bookend, from Paul Revere to George Washington, something to celebrate. But democracy does not happen on its own and we have to invest.
Americans have to participate. One in 10 voting in primary elections is not sustainable for a thriving democracy. That's true all around the world. So,
my call to action, Christiane, to everybody watching, no matter where you live, is be a participant.
That's why I got involved in politics. My career will end here at the end of this term, after six years. It was beautiful, it was joyful, it was
meaningful and inspirational. And I hope I can just use a little bit of that joy to spread to others around the world to be participants and know
that anything is possible.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to talk to -- ask you about the rest of the world in a moment, but I want you -- you've brought up several times the fact that
your career in politics is ending. Is it really, and if so, why? Is it because you got slapped around with this audacious competition against
Biden or what? Why -- I mean, you've been proven right, so to speak. Why give up now?
[13:15:00]
PHILLIPS: Well, I'll tell you, Christiane, I made that decision when it was tough, when it had seemed that the party had turned against me. And I
expected that. I knew when I made this decision, it would likely mean the end of that career. I do believe I could have -- if I ran, I would have won
again. But I also have to say that one of my other principles is term limits and ensuring that we constantly have new ideas and new people
running for office in America.
I served three terms. They were extraordinary, beautiful days and painful days. But I think it's really important that we always allow space and
place for those of great potential and aspiration and competency to run for office. And I serve with way too many people who've been there for decades
and decades. And I think modeling the very behavior that we want, I'm a bridge builder. I believe in decency and respect. And I also believe in
limiting one's term in public office. And that's exactly what I'm doing.
I never say never. There may be another intersection in the future in which my skills and availability matches the country's needs. But right now, I'm
here to celebrate something that I gave a good part of my last year and a half in my life, a lot of sweat and tears to, and that is to change this
ticket and here we are, and it is a beautiful celebratory day.
AMANPOUR: As you know, people around the world are watching. They'll be watching this convention, particularly allies and even, as I said,
antagonists. What should they know about a Harris presidency when it comes to, let's say, policy in the Middle East?
Right now, the secretary of state there, he is there, he has said this may be the last best chance to get the hostages released as part of a ceasefire
and prisoner swap. And you know, it doesn't look like it's moving, but maybe it is. What should a Harris policy, let's say, on the Middle East be?
PHILLIPS: I think a Harris policy on the Middle East will be a little bit more nuanced. I know the vice president to be a woman of both great
strength, great principle, and also great compassion. And if you're a human being, it is impossible to watch both the attack on October 7th in Israel
and the aftermath of the horrific loss of life in Gaza.
Two things can be true at once, Christiane. We can empathize with both. I believe Israel has a right to exist. I believe Benjamin Netanyahu has not
led Israel in the manner with the principles and values that I surely would like to see. And I think most Americans and many around the world would
like.
But we also have to acknowledge that Israel is constantly under threat. And we can do two things at once. Ensure the safety and security of Israel and
invest in the safety, security, and self-determination of Palestinians. I believe both are important. I think you'll see a President Harris and Vice
President Walz do just that.
And I would argue also, Christiane, it's time for an international marshal plan of sorts, to, for the first time, really invest in a Palestinian State
with the support of the Gulf States, the rest of the free world, hopefully, even in collaboration with China. Because what is going on there now is not
just a risk to Israel and to Palestinians, but to the entire world. And I think we'll see a President Harris with a wonderful heart and an equally
outstanding head as we approach what may be the last great opportunity to bring peace, prosperity, and security to a region that needs it.
And I'll just wrap up, of course, with the Iranian regime. Iran is an extraordinary country. The Iranian people, extraordinary themselves. But
this regime is accountable for horrific loss of life over the last number of generations. Currently responsible for so many of the terror attacks in
the Middle East and around the world. And I think it's time for the free world, at least, to unify behind a change, if you will, and ensure that
both those in the Middle East and around the world have opportunity to live in peace and security. That's what we'll see from this administration.
We will not see that from Donald Trump. And I think that's fair. I think he -- we should be listening to his words and watching his deeds. And that's
why I think this election is so important, not just for this country, but for the entire world.
AMANPOUR: And just because the entire world is watching, I said that the polls are tightening and she's doing better, Kamala Harris, than the
previous polls had shown, but they're still very, very close. And they say, even if Donald Trump managed to flip one swing state, the whole game could
be over for the Democrats. So, what are the red flags that you see? What has to happen between now and November?
PHILLIPS: Well, I'll just remind international viewers right now that, you know, we don't run our presidential contests on a popular vote. We have the
Electoral College system, which means there are about six states in the United States that will dictate the outcome of this election. And how the
Harris-Walz ticket performs in Michigan, in Georgia, Nevada, Wisconsin, Arizona, Pennsylvania, that is all that matters. Don't look at the national
polls. Look at those six or so battleground polls.
[13:20:00]
And the movement has been extraordinary just in one month, as you just noted. But this is going to be a real difficult battle here in the next 70
days or so. And I do believe, as the honeymoon will probably draw to a close after the convention, policy will take the front seat. The debate
will be important. I think President Trump's choice of J. D. Vance was a historic mistake for him. I also believe his decision to debate President
Biden before the Democratic Convention will go down in American history as an awful mistake, unforced error, if you will.
But we are going to see a very tight race, but I'm very excited, just the energy, Christiane, in the last three weeks. Our biggest risk was actually
not Donald Trump, we were fighting the couch, meaning people staying home on election day. And I think the movement we're seeing now and energy
excitement amongst young people, amongst communities of color, amongst disaffected Democrats, independents, moderate Republicans, I think we're
going to see an extraordinary outcome in November that might just be a Democratic White House, Senate, and House, which would be an extraordinary
change from what we were feeling just a few weeks ago.
AMANPOUR: Boy, oh, boy, we will come back to you after November election. Thank you so much indeed, Congressman. Thanks for joining us.
PHILLIPS: Anytime. Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: And one of Biden's legacies, of course, is supporting Ukraine and defying Russia's takeover attempt. Things have not been going well on
that front this year until a couple of weeks ago with Ukraine's astonishing and lightning strike into Russia.
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says their foothold in the Kursk region is getting stronger just as his forces blew up yet another bridge there. Nick
Paton Walsh got rare on the ground access to the area. He was accompanied by the military who did review the video for operational security reasons.
They had no editorial control at all. And here is the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): This was never in Putin's plan. But still, into Russia we cross with Ukrainian forces moving forwards. Through the border post they
destroyed in their surprise assault 10 days ago.
WALSH: As we get closer towards Sudzha, we can see more smoke on the horizon. But still, it's bizarrely calm on this road.
WALSH (voice-over): Pause a moment in these open fields and remember, this is the Cold War superpower. Unguarded, open and never expecting when
Russian President Vladimir Putin launched his war of choice two years ago, to be invaded back.
A Russian dead soldier still in the road. Ukraine only claimed here a day ago.
WALSH: Well, not even the statue of Lenin is unscathed here. This Ukrainian assault, so persistent, and Russia, despite its sense of history,
it's sort of past as being so impregnable, completely unable to push the Ukrainians out here. A sound of small arms fire we can still hear, so
clearly there is a bid for the Russians to push back, but it simply isn't working, and the humiliation for Putin endures.
WALSH (voice-over): Days ago, locals had honored their war dead. But none since the Nazis led Russia to face occupation.
WALSH: You can see the damage that's been done to this street here from the intense fight that rage to. Still clearly active fighting happening
here.
WALSH (voice-over): A sign in the basement here, they're peaceful people, no soldiers. Ina (ph), 68 says 60 civilians are there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The Ukrainians brought a lot of boxes. There is food.
WALSH: Just like we've seen in multiple Ukrainian towns over the last two years here, the locals trying to find some shelter from the war around
them.
WALSH (voice-over): Dennis Lav (ph) shows his gray.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This isn't living. It's existing. It's not life.
WALSH (voice-over): In the dark, hunted like so many Ukrainians now. The infirmed isolated, begging for calm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I don't know how it will end. At least a truce, so we can live peacefully. We don't need anything. I have a
crutch. I can't walk. It's very hard.
WALSH (voice-over): Day, night, light, dark, news or blackout or blur into one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): No news, we don't know what's happening around us.
WALSH (voice-over): Yefimov (ph) is over 90 and wants to leave to Ukraine, but there is no root out, he says.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You're the first to come here. My daughter, niece and grandkids are there. I'm Russian but they are married
to Ukrainians.
[13:25:00]
WALSH (voice-over): Again, ordinary streets that never guessed of their destruction or newfound fame days ago. Vacant in the storm around them.
Normal life here vanished in a hurry, leaving store floors as barracks. And Nina, 74, out looking for a pharmacy for her medication.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): If I wanted to leave, I would have. Why leave? I've lived here 50 years. My daughter and mother are
buried here. What about Ukraine? I live on my own land. I don't know whose land this is. I don't know anything anymore.
WALSH (voice-over): It is a war that keeps turning the world order on its head. Where wreckage that lined Ukraine's fields now haunts Russia's.
Ukrainians learn to paint over their road signs to confuse the invaders, but still hear. The signs ask God to protect and save Russia. That was
Putin's job.
It is not clear when he's coming back.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Nick Paton Walsh reporting there. A woman's right to reproductive freedom is a key battlefield between Democrats and
Republicans. And Vice President Kamala Harris has been the administration's point person on this ever since Roe vs. Wade was overturned two years ago,
and she vows to restore it if elected.
In the Gambia, West Africa, a different struggle over women and the right to their own bodies is playing out. A bill seeking to reverse the 2015 ban
on female genital mutilation was recently rejected by the nation's parliament, thanks to intensive lobbying and campaigning from human rights
activists.
Nearly 75 percent of Gambian women between the ages of 15 and 49 have endured this brutal practice, including our next guest, Jaha Dukureh. She
is the founder of Safe Hands for Girls, an NGO supporting survivors. And she's a U.N. women ambassador for Africa. She's joining me live now from
New York. Jaha Dukureh, welcome to the program.
JAHA DUKUREH, SURVIVOR OF FGM AND FOUNDER, SAFE HANDS FOR GIRLS: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: I mean, first and foremost, we need to celebrate what you all managed to make happen in your home country, Gambia. And that is not
allowing the forces of whatever culture to overturn this ban on FGM. How difficult was that? What did you have to do to convince parliament and the
people that these rights should not be overturned?
DUKUREH: I mean, I have dedicated most of my adult life working on the issue of FGM as a survivor and someone who not only comes from the Gambia,
but I come from a tribe that practices female genital mutilation 100 percent of the time. And I feel to bring change into our communities is
important that women like me who have the lived experiences, as well as know how to deal with members of our community from our National Assembly
members.
And for us, we had to work with members of parliament in the Gambia. One key person was our deputy speaker, Mr. Seedy Njie, who helped us lobby his
colleagues. But not only that, we had to work with religious leaders. We had to get survivors to come out and share their story. And we had to
mobilize across the country because this was an issue that was highly politicized.
And you know, to think that in 2024, we're discussing whether to cut parts of a woman's genital, it's still something that I can't believe that I
found myself in this fight nearly 12 years after I founded my organization.
AMANPOUR: Jaha, we just need to say that FGM was first banned in the Gambia in 2015. But as you say, cases remain high, 73 percent of women and
girls are survivors. I mean, honestly, it sends your head spinning. So, I want to first ask you about your own experience, because that too is just -
- I mean, you wouldn't believe it if you didn't hear from you yourself. What happened at the tiniest, youngest of age?
DUKUREH: So, when I was one week old in my tribe in the Gambia, you know, we are one of the only tribes that practice FGM when a girl is so young.
So, when I was one-week old, I went through FGM, but I also went through the type of FGM where the vagina is usually sealed. So, that way they can
prevent you from having sex until you get married.
[13:30:00]
And I didn't know that I went through FGM because, obviously, at that age, I don't remember the experience. But when I got married at 15, it was when
I found out that I had actually been subjected to FGM because my marriage couldn't be consummated until the seal was taken off.
AMANPOUR: Sorry, you got married at how old?
DUKUREH: I was 15 years old when I got married.
AMANPOUR: To who? Was this a marriage of choice?
DUKUREH: No, it wasn't a marriage of choice. Here in New York, actually my mother died when I was 14, and then I was brought to New York to marry a
guy that was much older than me, someone that was selected by my family. It wasn't a marriage that I wanted. And I think that's what frustrates me
about the work that we're doing in the Gambia. A lot of times, they claim that, you know, we're influenced by the west and that everything that we
say it's not true when, you know, there's evidence that this is something - - like I remember the doctor that took off the seal when I was 15 years old here in New York City. I have the pictures of my wedding day.
AMANPOUR: You showed them, yes.
DUKUREH: Exactly. So, it's -- yes.
AMANPOUR: I -- can you tell us what is the origin of this practice? Because, you know, lots of well-meaning humanitarians call it cultural
heritage. Others say it's a religious practice. What is it? Why does it happen? Because there are a lot of stakeholders, including some of the
women who perform it, it's a source of income for them.
DUKUREH: Absolutely. I mean, being a source of income is why we insist on providing alternative livelihoods to women, but culture -- slavery used to
be a culture. But as human beings with morality, we know that it's wrong. And because of that, we decided to abolish it. Foot binding used to be a
culture in China.
I agree, Female genital mutilation is cultural. But in Gambia and places like Somalia, people claim that it's a religious practice when, in fact,
it's not. When you look at the practice of female genital mutilation, it happens in Africa, it happens in Asia, and it happens in parts of the
Middle East. But in predominantly Muslim countries, like the Gambia, where some religious leaders, I would say, extreme religious leaders claim that
this is a religious practice, but then you look at other places like the UAE, for instance, Qatar, and there's a lot of North African countries
where female genital mutilation is not a thing. So, I would say in the places where it is practiced, it is a cultural practice that has been
passed down for generations.
AMANPOUR: Look you talked about North Africa. CNN did an amazing, amazing report. You know, nearly -- actually 30 years ago now, of a young girl who
this was happening to, and CNN had access. And we're going to show you an air, just a little piece of it, which was after the brutal cutting, and her
reaction after it. She was about 10 years old, this little girl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Daddy, daddy, screams Negla (ph). There is a sin upon all of you.
Negla's (ph) family fears that without circumcision, she'll become sexually promiscuous. It's not known why Egyptians traditionally circumcise their
daughters. The family believes it's part of Islam, but religious scholars disagree. It's almost unheard of in other Islamic countries.
I want you to know, Daddy, that I didn't want to be circumcised, and you did it to me, she says.
Don't be a brat, your grandmother calls. It's over says her father. Be brave, Negla (ph). Be brave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Gosh, I mean, to this day, it's hard to watch that. And it became illegal in Egypt where that took place in 2008. And at the time, FGM
there made up a quarter of all the world's cases. But there's since been a sharp downturn, some progress there. Cases down almost 30 percent since
then 30 years ago.
But the -- she was blaming her parents. Did you have that situation? Were you able to tell your parents or your father, as she did, that this was not
something you wanted?
DUKUREH: Well, I did not have that choice.
AMANPOUR: Afterwards, I mean, yes, because you were one-week old. But -- yes.
DUKUREH: Exactly. I mean, as an adult, I did have that conversation with my dad. But Egypt actually played a huge role in us maintaining the ban in
the Gambia. The civil society coalition in the Gambia that I worked with, we took our national assembly members to Egypt so that way they can learn
from the Egypt experience.
But a lot of girls globally, 230 million girls are living with the practice of female genital mutilation. Many of them do not get a choice in whether
this happens to them or not, and they never get an apology. And constantly living with people, diminishing their pain and saying that this is
something that should be acceptable, when, in fact it's not.
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: Interestingly, I read that your own father is a prominent imam, and you managed to convince him against FGM. Is that what it's going to
take, really?
DUKUREH: Well, my dad loves me, but it's going to take women like us from the communities. You cannot import solutions into a community and accept
change. It's important that you work with people like us who can stand up and say that because we have experienced this, we know exactly what it
feels like, and we are urging and pleading with our communities. And we have to, you know, do our advocacy in a very respectful manner, because we
are dealing with a very culturally sensitive issue.
So, a lot of times I do have some empathy, especially for the women who are survivors who are saying that, you know, they will continue FGM because,
you know, they're also victims of this practice. And I think education is critical in everything that we do.
AMANPOUR: And do you see that happening? And we've got 10 seconds left. Is education on the rise?
DUKUREH: It is. But you know, development and, yes, the resources have to match.
AMANPOUR: Jaha Dukureh, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
And we return now to our top story with Democrats getting ready to officially nominate Kamala Harris as the party's presidential candidate.
In a recent article, Washington Post reporter Liz Goodwin explored how the vice president's role on several powerful Senate committees shaped her
today. She joins Michel Martin to explain all of that.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks Christiane. Liz Goodwin, thank you so much for joining us.
LIZ GOODWIN, CONGRESS REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: You started covering Kamala Harris when she first went to the Senate. What about her caught your eye? Why did you start focusing on her
in particular?
GOODWIN: She really stood out at the time. A lot of times freshman senators, they're sort of nervous. This is the first time they've been on
the national stage. And that was true of Kamala Harris as well, but she just didn't seem to have the same caution or nerves that a lot of freshmen
senators had. She immediately spoke at the Women's March. She just had this very high profile from day one. And people were already talking about her
as a potential presidential contender. So, just that aura of sort of like glamour and discussion around her made her really stand out.
MARTIN: I'm wondering if, in part, she stood out because she was elected to the Senate the same year that Donald Trump was elected to the
presidency. But I'm wondering if, in part, the attention was focused on her because she was seen even then as kind of like the anti-Trump. I mean, she
was the exact opposite of what Donald Trump presented himself as when he became president. You think that's kind of part of it?
GOODWIN: For sure. I think Kamala Harris getting elected the same day as Donald Trump, really, when she was expecting to be serving with the first
woman president, right? She became the first black woman elected in California to the Senate, and then, she thought there was going to be this
other barrier breaking liberal woman in the White House, and instead, Donald Trump is elected. Liberals are shocked. I mean, everyone was shocked
because that's not what the polling had predicted, but liberals were also very, you know, concerned.
They didn't know what kind of president Trump was going to be like, and they were really looking to new leaders in the party to kind of guide them
through that moment, and Kamala Harris became one of those people incredibly quickly.
MARTIN: So, how did that happen?
GOODWIN: So, I think one thing that Harris came equipped with as a freshman senator was her rhetorical ability, her speaking skills. They were
just, you know, above average, like to say the least, for someone so new to the national stage. And in the Senate, she really made her name with these
committee hearings where she would be questioning Trump administration officials in a very aggressive style that she learned in courtrooms, right?
And it really made her stand out.
So, even though she would be the last person to ask questions because she was the newest senator, by then it's very hard to make any news. Everyone's
already asked all the good questions. But she really made a point to think about how she could attack some questions that hadn't been asked yet. She
prepared very lengthy preparation session. She really took that part of the job seriously and it paid off because it would lead to these sorts of viral
clips of her questioning people like Jeff Sessions or Brett Kavanaugh. And I think that also kind of launched her much more quickly than your average
senator or politician.
MARTIN: What was her reputation when she was a San Francisco district attorney and California attorney general?
GOODWIN: Yes, I think people thought of her as you know, a force and having a lot of charisma. She already had that reputation running statewide
in California. Her chief of staff in the Senate came with her from the A.G.'s office, and he said something that really stood out to him about her
always is that she can really read a room.
[13:40:00]
So, she has a lot of emotional intelligence, which not all politicians do, surprisingly. It was a big change for her from being A.G., because you're
running this big office, you're in charge, you're making these decisions, very high-level decisions. And in the Senate, you're one of a hundred and
everyone sort of sees themselves as a star. There's a lot of big personalities and you're the lowest on the totem pole as a freshman in
particular. And that was kind of a tough shift for her, from going -- from being an executive to being a legislator.
MARTIN: One of the things I thought was really insightful in your piece is you talked about how she was used to a very high level of preparation for
being in court. And given all the things that are thrown at you in the Congress, the schedule, the committees, that isn't possible. I thought that
was really interesting that she found that a source of frustration. But beyond that, what are some of the other ways that she adapted to that?
GOODWIN: Yes, she definitely struggled with what you're talking about, this level of preparation, the fact that you couldn't know everything
anymore, because the issue set that you're given as a senator is just endless.
She took more naturally to being in these committees and asking questions and demanding accountability because that was really already in her skill
set. When it came to legislating, you know, she was only in the Senate for four years, and she was in the minority the whole time. So, that's usually
not a good atmosphere for producing big bipartisan deals or things of that nature, but even for that set of circumstances, she didn't seem as
interested in legislating, aides say, and fellow senators say.
So, she did manage to get through some pieces of legislation and put out her own agenda, but it didn't seem to be her passion, essentially, is what
people who work for her say.
MARTIN: Well, what was her passion or what is her passion, at least as far as you can glean from the work that she did in the Senate?
GOODWIN: I would say these moments of holding Trump administration officials accountable was much more her passion. And like the amount of
prep that she would put into it was really above and beyond, you know, even for the Senate.
For the Brett Kavanaugh hearing, she had her usual staffers prepping her, and then they also brought in Supreme Court clerks because she knew they
would be able to really vet questions and think about how someone like Brett Kavanaugh would answer them.
So, she really made -- spent a ton of energy in making sure that she was coming to those committees ready and ready to soft of make news and break
ground. I think she also formed relationships with fellow senators that is helping her now. You know, a lot of them -- most of them came out
immediately after President Biden said he was stepping aside to support her. And I think that -- having that well of support is helping her now.
MARTIN: And what about with the Republican colleagues? I mean, they kind of implied that she wasn't really interested in legislating. That was kind
of the through line of the comments that the Republicans made about her. What does that mean? What are they trying to say?
GOODWIN: Yes, I think just because she was there for such a short time before she ran for president, that gave people the impression that what she
was doing those first two years was more positioning for the presidential run than trying to get things done.
So, you know, for example, she had signed on to Bernie Sanders' Medicare for All bill, which she later said she did not support. She backed off of
that, but that was -- there were kind of these like litmus test issues going on that were going to later feed into the Democratic primary, and the
Democrats were very much like in a conversation with themselves about criminal justice reform, about healthcare, about immigration, that had no
bearing in reality at all because it was a unified Republican government at the time.
So, I think it's actually kind of fair to say that she was locked in that kind of conversation for much of her time in the Senate that didn't really
-- it wasn't going to lead to any legislation because of the divided government.
MARTIN: So, now going to where her stint as vice president, the criticism of her as vice president, and that's not just on the Republican side, you
know, as sort of attack lines, but also some of the reporters who kind of covered her as vice president have said that she never really locked into
anything that she could identify as a success. The argument is that she hasn't really identified what she would do as an executive. Do you think
that's fair based on your coverage of her in the Senate?
GOODWIN: I do think it's -- that would be a fair way to describe some of her Senate years as well, but it's also with the big caveat that it was
only four years. So, you know, most people develop a Senate record at least over six years, right, and much lengthier than that for most of the people
I cover. And it really takes a while to get settled on your committee and find your interest areas and build those relationships. It really takes a
lot of relationship building to get anything like substantive done bipartisan.
[13:45:00]
So, I think, you know, it's fair to say she didn't really do much. She didn't get anything, any major law passed during her time, but it was also
four years when she was in the minority. So, it's hard to say what that would have looked like had she had a full Senate career.
That said, her aide said that it wasn't really her happy place anyway. She kind of wanted to be back in the executive chair, which she quickly was as
vice president. And when you're vice president, it's more about being pragmatic. You know, trying to manage things well, trying to make small
improvements on the margins as an executive. And I think that's a better fit for her sort of style.
MARTIN: Was Harris ever frustrated by what some people would see as her lack of visibility in the Biden administration? Just overall, you know, is
there a sense that she was not the key player that she could have been, or that many people believe Joe Biden was in the Obama administration?
GOODWIN: To my knowledge, I don't think she felt that she wanted to play more of a role on the Hill, specifically, that she wanted to be, you know,
more of that role that Biden had, where he would go over there and negotiate these big bills, like, you know, I don't get the sense she wanted
to be there hashing out the infrastructure bill, for example.
And she was able to kind of pick her spots when it came to being the voice of responding to Roe v. Wade, which now, you know, even though she wasn't
getting that much attention for it, you see it now that she's -- her message on that is so sharp because that's what she's been doing for two
years, is owning that issue.
So, yes, my sense is that she didn't feel overshadowed when it came to the Hill in particular. I don't know if she felt overshadowed in other ways.
Like, if she felt she could be better utilized on other fronts though.
MARTIN: You know, her own presidential run was widely seen as a bust and, you know, people have different interpretations of why. But in the course
of your reporting, did that come up?
GOODWIN: Yes, I think, you know, one issue with that primary was what we were talking about earlier where Democrats were trying to kind of race to
the left in a lot of ways, to distinguish themselves from each other and from Trump. Like, who can be the most anti-Trump Democrat? Who can have the
health care plan that's the most liberal? So, you're the best liberal.
And Joe Biden sort of never engaged in that game because he was sort of, you know, I'm the vice president, I am who I am. And he also began to seem
sort of like the safe choice. I think there was a lot of anxiety about the idea of picking another woman after 2016, much less a black woman because
Hillary had lost and some people felt maybe that was because she was too much of a gamble just on the gender portion alone.
So, I think Democrats were also just going through a lot of fear and rationalizations about what happened in 2016 and wanted kind of a safe,
sure thing. And Kamala Harris never really seemed like she was that.
MARTIN: And now, I mean, it's been a remarkable couple of weeks. As you and I are speaking now, the fundraising has been remarkable. The sense of
energy on the campaign trail. What do you make of it? And what are your -- what are the people that you've interviewed in the Senate make of the
response to her, to the ticket so far?
GOODWIN: I asked Chuck Schumer about that actually when I was talking to him for this piece and he basically said, there's some people who just rise
to a challenge, like this is just a crucible and she's just sort of crushing it and that's who she is. She rises to a challenge.
So, I think that's one interpretation. But you could also say her first presidential run was a challenge and she didn't rise to it, right? And so,
I think there's a lot of different factors that just make this moment right for her. One piece of it is just the relief among a lot of Democrats that
it's not Joe Biden, and the surprise of that and her seeming so fresh in comparison, given concerns about his age, and that's really boosting her
right now.
At the same time, you're starting to hear people say, you know, I want to know more about your policies. What do you believe in? Can you show us, you
know, exactly what you would do? And that is something that did trip up her earlier presidential run when she had to flesh out policies and it became
this race, you know, among Democrats for whose policies could be more liberal. So, I think that's -- that remains a challenge for her. It'll be
interesting to see how she tackles it.
MARTIN: How will she tackle this. There are groups that evaluate different political figures and where they sort of fit on the ideological spectrum.
According to one of those, she was considered the second most liberal senator.
This is something that Donald Trump has seized on the campaign trail, saying that she was, you know, almost as liberal as Vermont Senator, you
know, Bernie Sanders, who's a self-described, you know, socialist who caucuses with sort of the Democrats. Is that -- I mean, how do you see
that?
[13:50:00]
GOODWIN: I think she was definitely one of the most liberal senators when she was in the Senate. And the issue that she really launched her career on
was immigration and this idea of Trump's rhetoric against undocumented immigrants being dehumanizing, and she introduced a bill that would have
given immigrants the right to an attorney at the border.
Her maiden speech in the Senate was defending undocumented immigrants, and that's something that now, I think, with polls showing that a lot of
Americans are very concerned about illegal immigration, that she's not really emphasizing as much. And there's other issues like that as well,
where she's -- she has reversed her position, like, on wanting to ban fracking, for example, and that does open up the risk of being labeled a
flip flopper or inauthentic and in some way, which Republicans are making that argument.
You know, if you ask her people around her, they say that her time as vice president has shifted her opinions because she's been dealing with real
world issues and she's kind of learning as she goes and changing her mind, which, you know, people do. So, it's -- it just -- I think the whole world
around her policy issues and where does she stand how liberal does she want to be, that's been something that's been in the air for her for years now,
and I think that's going to be one of the main things she has to tackle before the election.
MARTIN: But if there is an Achilles heel for her as a candidate, would it be that, the fact that she doesn't seem to have staked out an identity from
a policy perspective, or if she has, it's one that may play well in California, her home state, but isn't necessarily as attractive to the rest
of the country?
GOODWIN: Yes, I think that's definitely what Republicans are banking on, that she -- her instincts are more liberal than the average Americans and
are going to turn off the voters she needs to win over in states like Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, that they're going to kind of see
through this act, as they would say, of seeming more moderate, more down the middle.
And then, I think there's also the risk of people on the far-left, you know, being angry that she's not with them, right? So, that's always the
tightrope any candidate has to walk. Do voters really get worked up about policy? How much are they thinking about fracking, for example, versus does
this person seem like they have a steady head on their shoulders? Do they seem like someone who is nice that I trust? A lot of times decisions do
come down to candidate kind of qualities versus policy papers.
So, I think the -- to me, the most potentially potent attack Republicans could have on Harris is if the policy switching becomes a character issue.
Is it inauthentic? Does it mean she doesn't stand for anything? Things like that tend to be more powerful than just the policies themselves.
MARTIN: And before we let you go, Liz, what is her North Star, from what you can determine based on your following her career and based on your
reporting and -- what is her North Star? What drives her?
GOODWIN: I mean, she often talks about her parents being involved in the civil rights movement. You know, growing up in Oakland, and that I think
that's when she tells her own origin story about what made her want to become a lawyer, get involved in politics, try to make a difference. That's
where she really locates it.
So, I do think her North Star is believing in an America that, you know, you have to get involved if you want to improve it. If you want to make
sure everyone has the promise of equality here, of opportunity, and that's why she got involved. And I think that's what she would say today as well.
MARTIN: Liz Goodwin, thanks so much for talking with us.
GOODWIN: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And talking of getting involved, finally tonight, we say goodbye to a television icon. Phil Donahue died last night, aged 88, following a
long illness. For nearly three decades, he hosted his own talk show, pioneering a new format for daytime TV that focused on everyday topics and
had audience participation.
On his program, he showed empathy towards women's rights and issues. Some might even have called him a feminist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL DONAHUE, HOST: We were talking about things that had never been discussed on the air. We were talking about the things women were talking
about among themselves. When the -- all the men on Saturday night would go into the kitchen to mix their drinks, the women would gather in the living
room, and what they were talking about are issues that the Donahue people brought to television. I'm very proud of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And in the 1980s, during the Cold War, Donahue co-hosted a "Spacebridge" talk show with the Soviet journalist, Vladimir Pozner. It was
a groundbreaking television moment that allowed studio audiences in the United States and in the Soviet Union to ask one another questions via
satellite.
[13:55:00]
Over the course of his career, he won 20 Emmys, and just three months before his death, he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by Joe
Biden.
And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
