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Amanpour
Interview With "The West Wing" Actor Martin Sheen; Interview With "The West Wing" Actor And "What's Next" Co-Author Melissa Fitzgerald; Interview With Mesa Arizona Mayor John Giles (R); Interview With Representative Victoria Escobar (D-TX). Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 21, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:35]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY: America, hope is making a comeback.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Can Kamala Harris rebuild the Obama coalition? Midway through the Democratic Convention, I asked Congresswoman Victoria Escobar, co-chair of
the Harris-Walz campaign.
Then, inside "The West Wing," 25 years since the iconic series debuted. I'm joined by its stars, Martin Sheen and Melissa Fitzgerald, to digest an
enduring legacy.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR JOHN GILES, MESA, ARIZONA (R): I feel a little out of place tonight, but I feel more at home here than in today's Republican Party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- the Republican backing Kamala Harris, John Giles, mayor of Mesa, Arizona, tells Hari Sreenivasan why he can't support his own party's
nominee.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Halfway across the world and halfway through the Democratic National
Convention in Chicago, after the Obamas rocked the hall tonight, the VP nominee, Tim Walz, pitches himself to the biggest crowd of his career,
reaching out to a public around the nation that doesn't fully know him yet. And he has a tough act to follow, Obama and the former First Lady Michelle
Obama both delivered barnstorming speeches that tried to recapture the energy around his 2008 campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I am feeling hopeful because this convention has always been pretty good to kids with funny names who believe
in a country where anything is possible.
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY: It's spreading all across this country. We love a familiar feeling that's been buried too deep for far too
long. You know what I'm talking about. It's the contagious power of hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: But both also insisted that despite that surging hope and enthusiasm it's going to be a very tight race So, let's get the latest from
Chicago with reporter Kevin Liptak. Kevin, welcome So, you've been there, you know, throughout. It's day three.
Beyond the barnstorming speeches that are taking, you know, everybody by -- you know, by the next, so to speak, what are they saying? What are the
delegates saying? Do they, you know, get beyond sort of the enthusiasm and down to the nitty gritty of turning that into votes?
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, I don't think you can get past the enthusiasm in some ways. This is a convention that is very
different than the one that Democrats were planning a month ago when Joe Biden was going to be the nominee.
And now, that Kamala Harris is the Democratic standard bearer, there has been something of a release of energy inside this convention hall.
Democrats are enthused. They, you know, greet their speakers with deafening applause, and I think you really can't imagine a more different spectacle
if Joe Biden was still the nominee.
I think it was James Carville who said that this convention would have been like sitting Shiva if Joe Biden was the candidate. It's a very different
event that you're seeing here this week, and you saw that when the Obamas walked out on stage last night. It was raucous applause. You could not hear
yourself think when Michelle Obama emerged onto that stage.
What I think was so interesting in the Obamas speeches, though, they didn't necessarily talk about Donald Trump as a threat to democracy. That had been
Joe Biden's message. That is the campaign he wanted to run on. That's not to say, you know, Barack Obama doesn't care about democracy, and you know
that, well, you interviewed him not that long ago about that very topic, but they have clearly made the calculation that voters want to hear less
about democracy and more takedowns of Donald Trump.
And their speeches were full of sort of laugh lines about Donald Trump. They have made the calculation that nothing gets under Donald Trump's skin
than not being taken seriously. And I think that's such a whole scale, different approach than Joe Biden was taking. And it kind of tells you
everything you know -- need to know about how this campaign has changed and how this convention has changed since Kamala Harris emerged as the nominee.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: So, tell us kind of about, you know, Tim Walz, because he is not known widely across America. What was his challenge as he takes to the
stage?
LIPTAK: Yes, and I'll tell you, he's actually not all that well known among the delegates here. In chatting them up over the course of this week, many
of them said that he wasn't really even on their radar until two weeks ago when he became the vice-presidential nominee. And these are some of the
most plugged-in people in Democratic politics.
So, he will have a task in front of him in introducing himself to the American people. And I think what he's going to want to do is rely on his
biography, his roots in Nebraska. He was a football coach. He was a teacher. He was a congressman. And he wants to put that forward as
something of a testament to his character.
He has also emerged as something of a joyful warrior on the campaign trail. He is the one who originated the attack line on the Republicans as weird,
which generated an enormous response. And so, that I think will be his task when he comes on the stage tonight is to just let Americans know who
exactly this person is.
AMANPOUR: And just because I'm sitting over here across the pond, so to speak, with all the world watching this election coming up, has anybody
articulated a worldview yet?
LIPTAK: I think the Kamala Harris doctrine is a very much unknown thing at this point. She has entered the vice presidency with not a lot of
experience on the foreign stage. She's learned as she went along and certainly, Joe Biden is someone who is able to help her do that in some
ways as someone who had been on the world stage for so long. She's taken a number of different tasks. Certainly, she was focused on Ukraine. She's
visited Ukraine. I think if you could identify a big -- biggest difference between the two of them is probably on the war in Israel.
Substantively, I don't think she would be doing anything different than Joe Biden is doing at this point. But in terms of emphasis, she has been much
more astringent and talking about the plight of the Palestinians, the need for a ceasefire in Gaza. She has said that just this week as well. This
convention, in some ways, had been overshadowed or people thought it might be overshadowed by protests related to the war in Gaza, which has divided
the Democratic Party in some ways. Those have remained outside the convention hall for now. It has not disrupted the proceedings here in the
arena.
AMANPOUR: Kevin Liptak, thank you. And Thursday night, tomorrow night, is Kamala Harris' night. Everybody will be tuned in. And later in this
program, Congresswoman Veronica Escobar, co-chair of the Harris-Walz campaign, will join me with more.
Now, much has been made of how this DNC has been trying to recapture the hope of Obama's 2008 run, but if you want real political fantasia, you have
to look to a little further back in time to 1999 when Aaron Sorkin's series "The West Wing" hit the airwaves with its famous walk and talks, its
dynamic fast paced scripts and soaring political optimism. Here's just one clip to remind us when actor Martin Sheen was president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN SHEEN, ACTOR, "THE WEST WING": There's a promise that I ask everyone who works here to make, never doubt that a small group of thoughtful and
committed citizens can change the world. You know why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's the only thing that ever has.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Seems like a long time ago, but a new book is going behind the scenes called "What's Next: A Backstage Pass to the West Wing, Its Cast and
Crew, and Its Enduring Legacy of Service." And I'm joined now by one of its authors, "The West Wing" alum, Melissa Fitzgerald, as well as President
Bartlett himself, the multiword winning actor, Martin Sheen. Welcome both of you to the program.
It really does seem appropriate to be able to talk about this and your legacy, the program's legacy, right in the middle of this convention.
Because as Michelle Obama said, it does seem that hope has been rekindled at least for this week. Martin Sheen, how do you see what's going on now in
real life? And sort of, as a postscript to what you all, and predicted back when "West Wing" was on the air?
SHEEN: Well, clearly, there is a groundswell, and it has captured the imagination of the whole nation, and no one could possibly have anticipated
it, and at least of all the Republicans. And with all due respects, I would offer just a few words of advice to Mr. Trump. Donald, you're going to need
a bigger boat. That's what's happening. There is a tidal wave sweeping across the country, and it's lifting everybody up with this optimism and
joy and hope, something that we could not possibly have imagined until very recently.
[13:10:00]
And so, we're all frankly just happy as Larry, that finally the dam is broken and it's OK to join the wave.
AMANPOUR: So, of course, you speak from a particular perspective and one that you all created and showed the world during "The West Wing." Some call
it a liberal fantasy. Melissa Fitzgerald, what I want to ask you is about the book that you've written about it, "What's Next" And it has a long
subtitle. What did you hear all these years later from the cast, from the crew, from the others who took part in this incredible series?
MELISSA FITZGERALD, ACTOR, "THE WEST WING: Well, I think we are at a moment of great hope, of joy, as Martin said, of optimism and we all felt so
fortunate to have been part of a show that envisioned a government that was filled by smart, committed people who went to work every day trying to do
the most good for the most people.
And we have heard from the fans and people who have bought the book, because it's been out for about a week now, and we've gotten such a flood
of positive response from people saying that this book is meeting the moment that we are in now, and that has been thrilling and exciting, that
we are in this moment of great optimism, joy, and hope, which was really what "The West Wing" was about, and why I believe it caught such fire.
AMANPOUR: So, look, I'm going to play a little clip, and, you know, it talks about what's next, the origin of that phrase or that questions, which
is also the title of your book. Here we go. Let's flashback for a moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sam, if we win in Illinois, do we have a shot at California and New York?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we win in Illinois, we're going to run the table.
SHEEN: Well, that's it then. We've saved people the trouble of voting. What's next?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our point is that it's --
SHEEN: I understood the point. We're going to South Carolina to set up Illinois. When I ask what's next, it means I'm ready to move on to other
things. So, what's next?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're done.
SHEEN: Fantastic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, it sums up so much, Martin Sheen. That was the late John Spencer. Also, obviously, in that clip. Tell me about "What's Next." I
mean, you sort of explained it there, but how did that become the sort of the iconic phrase.
SHEEN: Well, he'd never wanted to look behind him. He was always looking forward. So, he -- when he said what, what's next, he's saying to his staff
and to anyone within earshot that we've -- I got what you're trying to telling me -- what you're telling me and I'm looking forward and I'm
carrying what you told me with me. So, what's next?
AMANPOUR: So, he got it in, in other words, didn't have to have endless, endless long meetings.
SHEEN: He does. Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. Look, I want to ask you both. I'll start with you, Melissa. So, as we've established, "The West Wing" was an incredibly --
it's like comfort viewing. It gave people a sense of hope, a sense of can do, a sense that politics was there to make people's lives better.
And things that came later were very cynical, whether it's the "House of Cards," whether it's the English one "In the Thick of It," "Veep" even.
Funny, but quite cynical. How do you account for the success of the hopeful version, Melissa, when you look back, you know, 25 years later?
FITZGERALD: I believe I am a hopeful person at my core, and I think most people are. We want that. We want to know that our government is there for
us. We do own it. It is ours. And we have to build it. We have to fight for it. And I know that people have that hope in them and we need that. And I
think that was part of the success of the show and talking about what's next.
Mary and I chose that, Mary McCormick, who's the co-author, castmate, and dear friend, spent five years writing this book. And we chose that title
carefully because not only was it the president's catchphrase but it's also what we believe, that everyone who reads the book, that we the people,
we're what's next, because we make our government and we get the government that we build.
So, we're excited about that. We're excited that fans are -- you know, that they are reading the book with their families and that they are in this
moment of hope and inspiration. And it's just a thrilling time to be alive.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And actually, the series hit another whole wave of -- you know, of people and viewers during COVID and people still watch it and
binge it, even young people who weren't barely born when the series debuted. But I want to ask you, Martin, as well, because the idea of
service is very, very clear, public service through the presidency, through government, and also individual service and paying back.
[13:15:00]
And I understand that a lot of you, as regular civilians really did take on a lot of service. Maybe you were all doing public service, various things
before. But, Martin, talk to me a little bit about that because that's kind of interesting that the cast and crew and many of you all have engaged in
that.
SHEEN: Yes. You know, commitment to public service was part of our lives as a community with "The West Wing," but also, individually, and I think it
had a large part to do with why we were cast in the show. We came from a place and we stood for something. And if what you believe is not costly,
then you're left to question its value.
And so, for us, public service was a form of patriotism that went beyond the military and was expected from all of us. I grew up in a very different
time, of course, in the Midwest in the 1950s. Eisenhower was president. He was like a grandfather. Then here comes John Kennedy. And a spark was lit
for young people. And more and more young people got involved because he said, ask not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for
your country? And that made a profound impact on young people everywhere.
And we sort of echoed that with "The West Wing." We reached out and said, no matter where you are, who you are, and what you're involved in, you've
got to go higher to make the country better, and you'll be better as a result. You're going to carry with you all that that you believe and all
that you've sacrificed, and it's going to have meaning.
Very often the only time we see any results of our activism is on ourselves, and that's where it starts. You can't look over your shoulder
and think, well, I'm involved in something and everybody's going to be changed by it. No, no. If you're the only one that's changed, then you're
already a success.
AMANPOUR: You know, as you're talking, I'm flashing back to after 9/11, President Bush famously said, you know, go shopping, be -- you know, lead
as normal lives, where many people thought that was a moment to get ordinary Americans to do national service, not talking about military
service, national service to go out and really meet the moment. And I wonder whether you all think that was a missed opportunity?
SHEEN: I think it was. I think that people, you know, we're hit in a -- you know, in the heart of where we live. Civilians were murdered in a -- on
imaginable scale. And so, civilians everywhere, you know, had to cherish each other. Neighbors that they didn't even know became precious. All human
life. We saw each other with a clear and different light, how precious every single life was. And helplessly, we watched that horrible day on
9/11, and we couldn't really do anything. The heroes were running into the fire.
And so, it was like, you know, that -- we had to embrace all of life, how important each and every individual life was. And that's community. That's
basically a civic pride, you know, but it's a deeply spiritual reality as well that we're all in this together.
AMANPOUR: And, Melissa, I don't know whether you agree, but some people feel that sense of community that, you know, of course there's always been
political differences, cultural differences, but now, people take it to sort of an enmity level. If you don't agree with me, you're my enemy and
vice versa. And one of the things that this series showed was the ability, when it was necessary and possible, for the politicians to work across the
aisles and to actually get things done. And President Bartlett showed that.
Now, in a recent interview, Aaron Sorkin, who wrote the series and created it, said if he was producing it now, the whole concept of a reasonable
Republican opposition would be implausible. What do you -- do you reflect on that, Melissa?
FITZGERALD: Yes, I was actually sitting next to him when he said it.
AMANPOUR: OK.
FITZGERALD: One of the times that he said it. But I do believe that we can get back to that and we will get back to that. We are facing enormous
problems, not just in our country, but in the world. And I believe that we have everything we need to solve all the world's problems. We have to work
together. We have to come together, with kindness, empathy, understanding, and we have to work hard to solve them. And I believe we can and we must.
Everyone is counting on us to do it.
And that's something that, you know, Martin has set that example in service. And I think the entire cast really has been inspired by Martin's
march towards social justice. And he has led with kindness, empathy, treating everyone with dignity and respect, and we're all grateful for
that.
AMANPOUR: And of course, the example comes from the top. But I want to also ask you this, Melissa, because, you know, young people are really watching
this, as I said. A lot of them really, really like it.
[13:20:00]
There's some generational differences clearly from 25 years ago to now. And some onliners say that, you know, some of the aspects may not have aged
well, sexual dynamics in the workplace, mostly white casting, the undercurrent of American exceptionalism. Do you think that was just
reflecting the times or was it too optimistic?
FITZGERALD: I mean, I think it was reflecting the times 25 years ago. It's been a long time. But I also think, you know, when you know better, you do
better and you grow. And I'm very excited about where we are today and what we have in front of us.
But, you know, I do believe that the show, the core of it was hope, and the core of it was the government can be a force for good and I think we're
there again.
AMANPOUR: Yes, it's really interesting. I want to play another clip, Martin, because it's -- again, it's you. And you are here in the scene with
the late John Spencer, who was your chief of staff. Richard Schiff is your communications director. And it's actually about a pretty existential story
and health. Here we go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHEEN: During an eye exam, the doctor detected abnormal pupil responses and ordered an MRI. The radiologist found plaque on my brain and spine. I have
a relapsing remitting course of MS.
RICHARD SCHIFF, ACTOR, "THE WEST WING" I'm sorry, sir.
SHEEN: I have multiple sclerosis, Toby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, both of you, Martin, it is just eerie how art is imitating life or vice versa, given what's happened and the -- you know,
considered Biden has been considered to have aged out and a step down. This was an amazing story idea. What -- for those who don't know the next bid or
what happened after that? That was a potentially disqualifying condition for a president.
SHEEN: Well, it was, but he was surrounded by such optimism and such care and love and respect that no one abandoned him. They knew that they were
going to have a lot of opposition, but that he would prevail. You know, with all that's going on and with how it's -- you know, we covered so many
of the events that are happening now, 25 years ago, and over the first seven years of the series, you know.
I think of what's most important was I like telling the story of the Irish tale that -- about a man who arrives at the gates of heaven and asked to be
let in. St. Peter says, of course, just show us your scars. The man says, I have no scars. St. Peter says, what a pity. Was there nothing worth
fighting for? I think everyone on "The West Wing," everyone involved with it, everyone that was in any way connected with it found something worth
fighting for. They found a way to unite the will of the spirit with the work of the flesh. And when we do that, the world discovers fire for the
second time.
AMANPOUR: Yes, that's an amazing anecdote. Now, look, you both visited the White House last week. And, Martin, you spoke with the president. How did
that feel? I mean, was it -- did it feel like a homecoming? I'm kind of joking. But were you sort of consumed by the pathos of it all given what
the president had done and step down?
SHEEN: Well, I adored him. And to meet him, frankly, I was overwhelmed. I was tongue tied. I cannot remember anything I said to him. I remember him
saying to me, Mr. President, thank you for all you've done. And I couldn't think of anything that I had done. And when he was getting ready to leave,
you know, he invited us to walk out onto the lawn and he talked to the press and then he turned around and I saluted him. He saluted me and he
came back up to shake hands and say goodbye.
And people have wondered, well, what did he say to you that made you laugh? And I said, well, he asked me if I would like to talk to the press. I said,
no thanks. That's not what I do for a living.
AMANPOUR: Well, listen, I just wanted --
SHEEN: it was so disarming.
AMANPOUR: I want to put that last question to you, Melissa, because you were deputy press secretary. I mean, you see the way the press --
FITZGERALD: Yes, I was.
AMANPOUR: -- treats -- in the series, you see the way the press treats any leader right now. Remind us what it was like during the series. How was the
White House press room?
[13:25:00]
FITZGERALD: Well, it was not dissimilar to how it is now. I think it was -- there was a slightly greater or deeper line that people wouldn't cross in
terms of respect, but there were still challenges to the press secretary that we see now.
But I think, you know, it was always -- the press secretary was always in service of the president and it was an honor to be part of that series and
part of that show and to get to work with Allison and the rest of the cast. And as Martin said, the whole commitment to service has really kept our
relationships as a family.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
FITZGERALD: We are really a family to this day. We talk daily.
AMANPOUR: It's amazing.
FITZGERALD: We talk all the time. And we come together to support each other's issues and causes, including the one that I do now. I work in
justice system reform at an organization called All Rise. And the entire cast -- Martin got me involved in it, and the entire cast has supported it.
And everybody has something that they are working on at any given time. And it's inspiring to get to do that. We were given a great gift by being part
--
AMANPOUR: And you've given it, you've given it back. It's like a fine wine, you know, the quality survives. And the proof is in the pudding with people
still watching. Martin Sheen, Melissa Fitzgerald, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
And as we've just discussed, "The West Wing" is a portrayal of American democracy at its best, with Democrats and Republicans often working
together across the political aisle. Our next guest is a real-life example. He's the Republican mayor for Mesa, Arizona, John Giles. He's pledging his
support to Kamala Harris, and he even spoke at the Democratic Convention.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GILES: I feel a little out of place tonight, but I feel more at home here than in today's Republican Party. The grand old party has been kidnapped by
extremists. And devolved into a cult, the cult of Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And he joins Hari Sreenivasan now to explain why he was compelled to switch sides, as well as how immigration is on the ballot this election,
and the need for Kamala Harris to reset the messaging on that issue.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John Giles, thanks so much for joining us. In your career did you think you would be on a
national stage as a lifelong Republican addressing the Democratic Convention?
GILES: No, I mean, if you'd asked me, you know, list a hundred things that were going to happen to me this year, this is not one of them that I would
have identified it. As a lifelong Republican -- I mean, I -- frankly, I've never been a such a gung-ho Republican that I've gone to a Republican
Convention, but I certainly never would have imagined going to a Democratic Convention.
SREENIVASAN: OK. Well, you were there partly because you had previously endorsed Kamala Harris for president. Why that choice?
GILES: You know, as a mayor, I serve really in a nonpartisan position. Not everyone knows I'm a Republican, but at local government, you know, I did.
In my city council, I work with a very progressive Democrats and very conservative Republicans on my city council, and we get along very, very
well. And we -- because we focus on solving problems.
And so, I don't generally like to get involved in toxic, you know, partisan polarizing events, but sometimes there's elections or there's issues that
really silence is not an option, and this is one of those very pivotal elections I think in our lifetime.
SREENIVASAN: Was it a difficult decision to make for you?
GILES: It wasn't. Like I said, I don't like to get involved in mean spirited politics, and that's what partisan politics is. But at the same
time, I knew that it was in the best interest of my city, and that I -- if I didn't speak out, I would regret it.
SREENIVASAN: You know, I wonder, there have been a lot of other Republicans who -- when they know that they no longer have a political office that
they're seeking or getting reelected to, or that they've looked at the math, the poll numbers and say, I can't win right now, they seem to find a
new kind of spine and they have an opportunity to speak. And look, I mean, Senator Flake from Arizona comes to mind, but you're also a term limited
mayor. And I'm wondering why now, why choose to make this public sort of split with the top of your ticket?
GILES: Well, I don't disagree with your assessment and neither do apparently a lot of elected Republicans, because when you do see
Republicans that still have to contend in partisan primaries, you don't see very many of them being critical of Mr. Trump.
My personal situation is I've never aspired to have a job other than the one that I have now as, as mayor of my hometown. And I'm term limited out.
So, maybe, you know, that's where I find my courage.
[13:30:00]
But, you know, that's the way it is. And then I am free to speak my mind and to state the obvious, which is that the Republican Party is in a lot of
trouble. We've always had, you know, the far-right is part of our coalition, but that that segment of the party has taken over. And to
paraphrase Kari Lake, one of our candidates in Arizona, she's told people who are not part of the MAGA contingent to get the hell out of the room.
And so, that's not a healthy big tent Republican Party.
SREENIVASAN: You know, this isn't the first time that you endorsed a Democrat. Back in 2022, you endorsed Mark Kelly, and some of your
colleagues on the Republican side, they wanted you to -- they wanted other Republicans to cease recognition of you as a Republican and to cease
supporting you in any future election. That doesn't sound -- even two years ago, that big tent has shrunk a lot smaller.
GILES: It absolutely has. That's been that the path that this party's continued to go down. And it hasn't been a winning strategy. In Arizona,
the MAGA party has been successful in excluding a lot of us, and then they continue, they win the partisan primary elections, and then they fail
miserably in the general election.
Because the majority of -- I mean, right now in Arizona, the independence equal the number of Democrats and Republicans. Because, again, this
exclusionary policy of the MAGA crowd trying to cleanse the party of anybody that disagrees with them.
SREENIVASAN: So, what happens to people who are more centrist from the Republican side, perhaps less progressive from the Democrat side, where do
they go?
GILES: Well, we're -- a lot of us are politically homeless, but there's something on the ballot right now. You know, across the country, you're
seeing a push for open primaries. Where instead of sending, you know, the far-right and the far-left candidate, you know, into the general election,
and you kind of have a choice of the lesser of two evils, the mainstream electorate gets to weigh in from the very beginning and it helps to -- and
has the privilege of choosing who the final two candidates will be.
SREENIVASAN: You know, last night at the convention, one of the quotes you had, I have an urgent message for the majority of Americans who, like me,
are in the political middle. John McCain's Republican Party is gone, and we don't owe a damn thing to what's been left behind.
What do you think it is that animates people to stay loyal? What do you say to people who feel like, wait a minute, this is the -- this is my political
tribe, I can't defect?
GILES: Well, I absolutely relate to them. And I've been a lifelong Republican and it's been -- you know, there hasn't been a lot of debate,
you know, in my -- previously, in my life as to who to vote for. But on the other end, I have -- as you -- as you're aware not been shy about voting
for the best candidate when I know it's not the Republican.
So, we just need to remind people that they're -- they absolutely doubt, there's no reason to feel tremendous loyalty to a political party. And it
is important to vote for the best candidate. And in this election, that's not Donald Trump.
SREENIVASAN: I have to ask, I mean, I guess what drew you to the Republican Party when you started in politics? What is that party like juxtaposed to
where you find the majority of the power in the Republican Party today?
GILES: Well -- and people legitimately ask me, why do you continue to be a Republican? Why? And the answer is I am more comfortable in terms of
political positions in the Republican Party than I am in the Democratic Party.
I continue to be concerned about open borders, which is something that's advocated for in a lot of the Democratic Party. I continue to be pro-life.
They're -- if you take the eight or nine top issues that the Republican Party is founded on, you know, I'm probably there with them on six or seven
of them. And so, I resent being told that I have to leave the Republican Party, because that's the party where my political philosophies more -- are
more closely aligned.
I didn't leave the Republican Party. The Republican Party is trying desperately to leave me. And I think it's -- we just need -- I need to
remind them, and I think it's important that the voices like mine continue to remain in the party and point out that this is not a healthy direction,
that we are spiraling down into obscurity as a party.
[13:35:00]
SREENIVASAN: Tell me, let's talk a little bit about border and immigration. You are a border state, you know this very well. Tell me about the impact
that it has had and why this is so animating for Republicans and independents and even Democrats in Arizona.
GILES: Sure. As a border state, we see firsthand the impact of anytime there's a surge at the border or -- we have some failed policies at the
border and in our immigration laws, and I think one of the -- Kamala Harris needs to get out and help people understand that the executive orders that
have been used by President Obama and more recently and under President Biden to modify asylum seekers and, you know, some of the policy --
enforcement policies at the border, there are no substitute for congressional action to actually fix the loopholes in our immigration and
border policies.
So, the solution -- something that would have been a tremendous solution is the bipartisan Immigration and Border Act that my own Senator Sinema and
Conservative Senator Langford and others worked on for many, many months was absolutely agreed to by the leadership of both parties. And the
president and was on its way to having some real impact until Donald Trump decided that he wanted this very divisive, emotional wedge issue to be
front and center because he thought that it was -- it would play to his political advantage.
So, that -- to me, that's another reason why Donald Trump is disqualified as president. His priorities clearly are not what's in the best interest of
our country.
SREENIVASAN: I think there are a lot of folks who say, look, I'm not for wide open borders, but at the same time, I also am trying to empathize with
the reason that some of these women and children are making these incredibly treacherous journeys. What can we do to try to reach this
balance?
GILES: Well, you're right that the -- there's a very compelling human element to this situation and there's a lot of, you know, real suffering
that is hard to ignore and that we need to be empathetic for. But at the same time, when we send conflicting messages and that provokes people to
take these -- take on these very dangerous journeys and to expose themselves to these types of dangers, you know, that's not sound policy.
And frankly, the people that are in control of our borders right now are the cartels that are making a lot of money, taking advantage of these
folks, and then they have the -- you know, very good U.S. immigration lawyers that help them exploit the loopholes in our law and our border
policy. So, you know, shame on us for not being -- for not sending the right message and for not having clear policies.
I can tell you, we absolutely need immigration in our country. In my city, I have a lot more jobs than I have people. And the economic impact of
immigration is very significant. The border is not a liability in Arizona. The border is a huge advantage. It's an amazing part of our economy. And
so, that's part of why I'm so anxious at the immigration reform is we need to -- for people who aren't aware of what an asset the border is, we need
to help, you know, reset that mindset.
SREENIVASAN: President Trump is -- and his supporters have made quite a few ads talking about Kamala Harris as a failed immigration and borders are.
GILES: Yes.
SREENIVASAN: What does -- you know, in the opportunities that you might have had to speak with Vice President Harris, what is your advice to her?
What was your kind of number one issue that you felt like that she could do something about as president because what she could do maybe as an
executive action is different than bipartisan legislation working its way through Congress?
GILES: Well, I think she needs to explain exactly that, that the -- what power does the executive have in influencing this absent action from
Congress?
Donald Trump had the advantage of Title 42, you know, for a good portion of his presidency, the border was under a large lockdown based on COVID.
President Biden tried to continue to do that until the courts told him he couldn't do it anymore.
So, Vice President Harris has to explain what her role has been to this point, the good work that she did in the Northern Triangle, trying to
address the root causes of migration out of that portion of the world, but also that -- and she has done this. That she can -- she's very willing to
advocate for the bipartisan Immigration Reform Act that was poised to be passed a few months ago.
[13:40:00]
She continues to be committed to that, and that's a good solution. It's far from perfect. It's very much a compromise. It doesn't include important
issues like addressing Dreamers. But at the same time, it accomplishes a lot. And I think she just needs to educate people because there's some Paul
Simpson propaganda that's coming out of the Trump camp that that needs to be corrected.
SREENIVASAN: A concern that a lot of people have watching this election season is what will happen in Arizona. Because it is not just a key
battleground state, but it has also been the epicenter for so many election misinformation, disinformation, frankly, election denialism campaigns that
have happened since the last election.
So, I wonder, heading into this cycle, do you think that you will be able to have a free and fair election that will be certified by a board of
electors regardless of who the winner is?
GILES: I do. Arizona is actually very good at putting on elections. But election deniers are very good and brave about challenging them. So, in the
last several elections, there hasn't been any indication that there's been any wrong doing and the way elections are carried out in Arizona. We've got
very competent elected and professional people in that area in Arizona. So, I don't have concerns about the security of our elections.
But I -- at the same time, I absolutely will guarantee you that there will be people stepping up, making those types of allegations. That's what
happened in the last election and election denialism is alive and well in Arizona. So, it will be a problem. But there's no indication that there's
any substance to that.
SREENIVASAN: You've said before that if President Trump is re-elected to office that he may not leave office at the end of that term. Is that being
hyperbolic?
GILES: It was a little bit, but it's less hyperbolic than Mr. Trump. You know, he's the one who said, if you vote for me this election, you won't
have to vote anymore. So, sometimes you have to take Donald Trump at his word. You know, when he's literally suggesting that we only need one more
election and then the country will be baked, you know, how do you respond to that? That's hyperbolic.
Now, is he actually going to be capable of canceling, making it so that we don't need to vote after this election? Of course not. But I think we need
to point out how, you know, the language that he's using and the flippant nature that he has and describing our elections that that's not appropriate
either.
SREENIVASAN: What is your assessment of the future of the Republican Party if Trump wins and if Trump loses?
GILES: You know, this is a big question, because that -- the future of the Republican Party is very much on the ballot, you know, this year. I -- you
know, as someone who continues to hold out hope that the Republican Party can turn around, you know, in some ways I'm certainly hoping that the top
of our ticket is not successful. I'm hoping that the MAGA candidates who are loyal to Mr. Trump are not successful and that maybe some continued
failure will motivate them to make a -- to acknowledge the need for a bigger tent, and that control of the party will be wrestled away from the
MAGA folks.
But it's also clear that the Trump base, you know, is not going to change their mind. And so, I think there's been speculation that even if Mr. Trump
loses, you know, for as long as he wants to exert influence over the party, he's in control. So, that's the doomsday scenario that I'm not sure how we
recover from.
This country needs two strong parties, and as long as Donald Trump is dictating what happens in the Republican Party, that's not going to be the
case.
SREENIVASAN: Mayor of Mesa, Arizona, John Giles, thanks so much for joining us.
GILES: My pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And of course, as we just heard from the mayor, for many Americans, immigration is becoming a top concern ahead of the presidential
election. And my next guest knows what this issue means to voters better than most. She is Veronica Escobar. She's the Democratic congresswoman from
the border town of El Paso, Texas. So, it's not just a national concern for her constituents, it's a very local one.
She's also the national co-chair of the Harris-Walz campaign. And she'll be presiding over the DNC's final day, which is tomorrow. And she's joining me
now from Chicago from inside the convention hall. Welcome, Congresswoman
REP. VICTORIA ESCOBAR (D-TX): Wonderful to see you. Thank you for having me on
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: You too. And I know that you are getting ready and you've been practicing your speaking for your big turn in the limelight. And on that
big stage where there have been so many barnstorming speeches.
Can I just ask you to refer back to what the mayor said? Because he talked about supporting Kamala Harris. He's a Republican. And I know that clearly
one aim of this convention is to get as many Republicans to decide to support her as possible. How do you think that's going?
ESCOBAR: I think it's going extraordinarily well. And there are a number of courageous Republicans like the mayor, like Olivia Troye, an El Pasoan
also, by the way, and a number of other Republicans who are speaking out on the national stage, talking to fellow Americans, letting them know that
while they might have voted for Donald Trump in 2016, they are voting for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz in 2024 because the country is too important and
the country is more important than their party, which, as the mayor mentioned, has been handed over to extremists.
So, we are delighted to welcome them not just, on the national stage, but at the ballot box, and they are creating a permission structure for other
Republicans and independents to understand that this election is too important to blindly give their voice -- their vote to a Republican Party
that has left them.
AMANPOUR: So, as you know very well, immigration is a massive big deal, and if it's not at the top of the list of people's concerns, it's right up
there with the economy. And Donald Trump seems to be, anyway, in current polls, including in the swing states, polling much better, much far ahead
of the Democrats, ahead of Biden and ahead of Kamala Harris on that issue.
And last night, President Obama, while taking swipes at Trump, spoke about the immigration issue. Let me just play what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
B. OBAMA: The truth is Donald Trump sees power as nothing more than a means to his ends. He wants the middle class to pay the price for another huge
tax cut that would mostly help him and his rich friends. He killed a bipartisan immigration deal written in part by one of the most conservative
Republicans in Congress that would have helped secure our southern border because he thought trying to actually solve the problem would hurt his
campaign. He doesn't -- do not boo. Vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, Congresswoman, President Obama is putting a really important finger on the fact that the entire system is -- has failed to deal with
immigration, Democrats, Republicans. And what can you do to actually address a problem that does need addressing? And in what parts does it need
addressing? What would an ideal immigration reform bill look like today?
ESCOBAR: Absolutely. And I'll tell you, Americans want Congress to get to work and do its job and reform our outdated immigration laws. And the mayor
mentioned that executive orders can only accomplish so much. In fact, Americans have a little bit of amnesia about the Donald Trump
administration with immigration. That was my first term in congress and I brought hundreds of members of Congress -- well, I brought about 25 percent
of Congress to El Paso to see the conditions, the extraordinary conditions under which people were being held in the most inhumanitarian way by the
Trump administration.
So, we had a high number of border encounters and apprehensions even during Donald Trump's era. But what we want and what Americans want, and frankly,
no one wants reform more than those of us who live on the border. What we want is for Congress to get to work.
I have a bipartisan comprehensive immigration reform bill, it's not everything that Democrats want, it's not everything Republicans want, but
it is a compromise. Vice President Harris came to El Paso. She understands the complexity of the issue. She knows that Congress needs to work in a
bipartisan way. And she is a leader who will help us achieve that.
But that's why this convention is so important. We need to elect Democrats up and down the ballot who will give her the support and, frankly, give us
the majorities in order to make those changes. We know that Republicans have stood in the way and have actually obstructed the last three efforts
at bipartisan compromise on this issue. In the last decade alone, three efforts have been scuttled by Republicans.
[13:50:00]
So, the question is, which party is more serious, and I will tell you, it's the Democratic Party.
AMANPOUR: Well, you may say that, but for whatever reason, 36 percent of Americans say, not only is it a top immigration issue, more of them trust
Trump to deal with it than Harris. That's 46 percent to 37 percent according to at least one poll. And I want to play you know, a repeated
attack line that Trump is using about this very issue and about Kamala Harris herself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now, we're talking about migrant crime because people are coming in from
all over the world. Criminals are coming into our country because we allowed to have an open border through Kamala Harris, who is the border
czar.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, that was to CNN yesterday during a campaign appearance in Michigan. So, how are you going to address this then, because it is a
famous attack line and it worked in the last 2016 election?
ESCOBAR: We are doing everything we can to get our message out. And we've got a lot of work to do in the remaining couple of months leading up to
November. We've got to draw the contrast, Donald Trump separated families at the border. And his Project 2025 is seeking to take us back to a very
dark era in American history, when during the Eisenhower administration, 60 percent of people who were deported as part of a mass deportation effort
were legal immigrants. And Trump's Project 2025 seeks to remove legal immigrants from this country.
Look, we know -- Democrats know that the system is broken and needs to be reformed. But what Donald Trump is pushing is un-American. Mass
deportations, claiming that immigrants poison the blood of America, that's vile language. And we know that immigrants are an important part of our
economy.
In fact, the Congressional Budget Office talked about how post-COVID it was immigrants and the immigrant labor force that saved our country. We've got
to reform the system in a way that responds to what is happening today at our nation's front door, but that also opens up legal pathways for
immigrants because our country, a nation of immigrants, needs immigrants.
AMANPOUR: And it is, as you say, an incredibly important balancing act that has to be taken and has to be resolved. I'm reminded that at the Republican
National Convention, people were waving signs about mass deportation and the like. How do you account for the Latino vote? I don't know whether it's
fair just to ask you that. But clearly, there are constituencies that each party is trying to win.
They make up 10 percent of the electorate. They did in 2020. Kamala Harris is making up some ground that Biden sort of -- but remains below Biden's
2020 levels. Where do you think that vote is going to go? We hear that a lot of Latino men, for instance, are more inclined to the Republicans, but
maybe other demographics not. Where is the -- where is your work cut out for you?
ESCOBAR: Well, I want to say first that the Biden-Harris campaign, when President Biden was still at the top of the ticket, focused early on on
Latino voters. And we launched Latinos con Biden-Harris very early on. We made investments, especially in battleground states within Latino
communities. The Harris-Walz campaign is building on that early work.
We have a ground game. I have been spending time with Latino communities in battleground states to listen to Latino voters, to engage with them, to
talk with them. And to the vice president's point, something she says over and over again, to earn their votes.
We are not taking Latinos for granted, but we want to ensure that they know that they have tremendous power in their vote and that we are the party,
and Kamala Harris and Tim Walz are the ticket that will help ensure that Latino communities prosper and thrive.
We want to remind Latino communities that the Donald Trump-J. D. Vance ticket really is only in it for the billionaire class and that their
trickle-down strategies don't work for us. We believe in Latino communities, we care about Latino communities, and we're going to keep
talking to Latino communities to ask them for their support.
AMANPOUR: All right. Congresswoman Veronica Escobar, thank you so much for joining us from the convention.
[13:55:00]
And finally, tonight, music and friendship triumphing over hate. Two very special fans were at London's Wembley Stadium as Taylor Swift wrapped up
the European leg of her Eras Tour.
Sisters Hope and Autumn were invited backstage to meet their idol just over one month after they were injured in the deadly Southport stabbing attack
here in the U.K. when a man targeted their Taylor Swift themed dance class.
Now, these pictures show them smiling, donning their Taylor T-shirts, those famous friendship bracelets, and even a bandage covered in lyrics. Posting
on TikTok, the girl's mother wrote, you drew stars around my scars. Referencing Swift's song, "Cardigan." Sending a poignant message of
happiness and healing despite all that they've endured. A really important message for now.
And that's it. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always catch us
online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
