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Amanpour
Interview with Former U.S. National Security Adviser and "At War with Ourselves" Author Lt. Gen. H. R. McMaster (Ret.); Another Hostage Rescued in Gaza; The Plight and Persecution of the Rohingya People; Interview with "When the Heavens Went on Sale" Author Ashley Vance; Interview with "Wild Wild Space" Director Ross Kauffman. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 27, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up. A account of the Trump White House. Christiane's
conversation with former National Security Adviser General H. R. McMaster.
Then, another hostage rescued in Gaza. A glimmer of hope in the shadow of war. Analyst Barak Ravid will join me.
Plus, history repeating itself for the Rohingya. Correspondent Anna Coren meets refugees fleeing violence and terror once more.
Also ahead, "Wild Wild Space," a new documentary tracking the intense rivalry between rocket companies.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Well, the race is on for Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. And in less than 70 days, Americans will decide the next commander-in-chief. With wars
raging in Gaza and Ukraine, the stakes are high for the world.
Today, Israel's military says it rescued a hostage being held underground by Hamas, a reminder of the human suffering that continues while the
fighting drags on. And in Ukraine, Russian troops are closing in on the key strategic city of Pokrovsk.
So, how would a second Trump term impact all of this? H. R. McMaster spent over a year as National Security Adviser to President Trump, and now, he's
speaking out about what he saw. His new book, "At War with Ourselves," offers a blistering account of a White House filled with chaos and
sycophants, with serious consequences for U.S. foreign policy. Christiane spoke with him earlier about it all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Before we get to talk to you about your book, I wanted to get your expertise on some of the big
military issues going on right now. We see that the Israelis have rescued another hostage and they apparently found him unguarded, at least at that
point, in a tunnel. What does that tell you? Does it tell you that maybe Hamas is not as able to do as much as it was able to do? That it has been
degraded?
LT. GEN. H. R. MCMASTER (RET.), FORMER U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER AND AUTHOR, "AT WAR WITH OURSELVES": Christiane, hey, it's great to be with
you again. I think that's exactly what it demonstrates. I think there's probably -- you know, the Hamas leaders or those who were guarding that
hostage are probably on the run, you know, and I think -- you know, I hope that bodes well for other hostages who might be discovered as this tunnel -
- as these tunnels are exploited and you have -- in this case, you had Israeli Defense Force, special operations forces operating in those
tunnels, looking for Hamas leaders and thankfully, they found one of the hostages.
AMANPOUR: And of course, we know that the U.S. is providing a lot of technology and intelligence to be able to map these tunnels. But we also
know a bit all these talks of a ceasefire and hostage release and all of that, that the Israeli security establishment itself and the military
personnel and the leaders have been saying that they believe they have done as much damage as they can right now to Hamas.
Apparently, the United States agrees as well, that if they have to go in again, maybe they can. But right now, they've done all that they can do.
Would you agree with that? And therefore, would you say that this is a time to really try to nail down a ceasefire?
MCMASTER: Yes, I would disagree with that, Christiane. I think they've got to hunt down the leaders. I think they've got to kill Sinwar or capture
Sinwar. And, you know, of course, I mean, you got to think back to what happened October 7th. We have a reminder, right, that there are still
hostages.
And, you know, Christiane, even despite the gains that the Israeli Defense Force have made against Hamas, it's Hamas still who has the guns in Gaza.
So, if you hope to get to any kind of progress toward an enduring peace or a two-state solution, you've got to destroy Hamas, right? Because Hamas is
the organization that is committed to destroying Israel and killing all the Jews.
And they -- and so, who's going to be the mayor of Gaza, Christiane? As soon as you put your hand up, maybe it'll be me, you're going to get a
bullet in the head. So, I think it's really important, you know, to kind of finish the job, but also, recognize Hamas is going to try to come back and
you're going to need some kind of a peace enforcement force there, you know, that has a degree of legitimacy with the -- you know, with the
Palestinian people and can help bridge to some kind of a political alternative to Hamas, right, an organization that has diverted any kind of
resources that were meant for the Palestinian people in Gaza to its terrorist organization and this terrorist infrastructure like these tunnels
where this hostage was recovered.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's really interesting because you're disagreeing with the Israeli military itself, the leaders who are telling they're
interlocuters --
MCMASTER: Well, elements -- I would say elements of the military, you know, I don't think -- you know.
AMANPOUR: OK.
MCMASTER: And I think also, Christiane, there is, you know, a desire on the part of the Israeli Defense Force to get as much force as they can out
of Gaza because they have other security threats principally on the Lebanese border, right? And I think that the IDF has probably concluded
that it's going to have to go into Southern Lebanon to dismantle some of the Hezbollah infrastructure there.
I mean, the big lesson I think of October 7th that the IDF and Israelis are taking generally is you can't have an organization that is committed to
your destruction on your border with those kinds of capabilities, like the hundreds of rockets, for example, that Hezbollah recently fired into
Israel.
AMANPOUR: Let me move on, because as we speak, Ukraine is also, of course, a really live war. We've seen the incredible and audacious incursion by
Ukraine into Kyiv, but we also see the relentless push by Russia against, you know, those towns in the east, including Pokrovsk, which is a strategic
place for all sorts of supply lines.
Where do you think this war goes from here? Today, Zelenskyy said, we can only win if the U.S. is 100 percent with us and lets us use the weapons the
way we want to use them.
MCMASTER: Well, Christiane, I think what's important is, you know, the -- that wars evolve and they change. Remember, we were talking about a
stalemate, but this doesn't look like a stalemate when you have this significant operation into Russia that I think has shifted the initiative
back for -- at least for a time to the side of the Ukrainians.
I think that, of course, the threats are still in the east, as you mentioned. And I think what it's going to require is a sustained commitment
to give the Ukrainians what they need to defend themselves. And that includes, you know, the ammunition and the weapon systems, but also the
permissions to be able to use those weapons against Russian weapon systems and facilities that Russia is using to continue this onslaught against the
Ukrainians.
You know, missile defense is important, being able to shoot down the arrows that come at you that are aimed as we saw, you know, at children's
hospitals and power infrastructure over the last 24 hours in terms of the multiple rockets and drones were aimed at the hydroelectric facility in the
dam north of Kyiv, but you also have to be able to kill the archer, Christiane.
And so, some of these long-range weapon systems are important to defending the Ukrainian people from the continued Russian onslaught.
AMANPOUR: Let me now turn to your book, "At War with Ourselves." And you talk about your tour of duty during the Trump years when you were, for a
period of, I think, about a year his national security adviser. And again, sticking with Ukraine and Russia, of course, because it's fascinating what
you say, it'll be a critical issue. You say, discussions of Vladimir Putin and Russia were difficult to have with President Trump. And you felt it was
your duty to point out to Trump that Vladimir Putin was, quote, was not and would never be Trump's friend.
Talk us through that. Why did Trump think he would be and what sort of raised red flags to you?
MCMASTER: Well, you know, I think President Trump, you know, suffered under the same conceit that George W. Bush had suffered under and President
Obama earlier in their presidencies. Remember when, you know, George W. Bush looked into Putin's soul and saw somebody who really cares about his
people and then you had, you know, the reset policy under the Obama administration and the belief, you know, that they could change Putin's
behavior, you know, if they just allayed his security concerns and they could get -- what President Trump would call like a big deal, right?
President Trump has a lot of confidence in his deal making abilities.
And so, I, it was my job to point out, hey, Mr. President, this guy is the best liar, the best deceiver in the world. And by the way, Vladimir Putin
has aspirations and objectives in mind that go far beyond anything that's in reaction to what we do.
And so, what provokes Putin -- and this is the message that I would try to give the president, and I think succeeded for a time in giving the
president, is that what provokes Putin is the perception of weakness. And this is what led, you know, President Trump to put more sanctions on
Russian entities and individuals in the first year of his presidency than the previous eight years of the Obama administration. He closed two
consulates, he expelled, you know, scores of Russian undeclared intelligence officers, and he provided defensive capabilities to Ukraine in
the form of Javelin missiles.
[13:10:00]
But of course, you know, the audio didn't match the video a lot of times with what President Trump was saying right about Vladimir Putin. And that
was frustrating to us who thought Putin needed to be sent, you know, a clear, unambiguous message, you know, that we would impose cost on him that
went far beyond the cost that Putin considered when he decided to take aggressive actions against us and our European allies.
AMANPOUR: And yet, you say that you went back one night and you said to your wife, I don't know what Putin has on Trump, because Trump was
constantly, at least in this anecdote, the report, trying to send congratulations, trying to send thank yous, anytime he thought Putin had
praised him or flattered him. And you said, basically, you're not going to do that.
Well, what do you think? Why would Trump do that? And what do you think Putin had on him?
MCMASTER: Well, I don't think he had anything on him. I really don't, Christiane. I think he had a hold over him, I think is what I've said. You
know, I can't -- I could understand, you know, Putin -- I don't regard Vladimir Putin as a charming person, you know?
So -- but I think President Trump saw in some of these authoritarian leaders, you know, he saw -- he wanted to be regarded the way he thought
people regarded kind of these -- some of these strong men. And I think, also, you know, again, he had this faith in his ability to make a big deal,
you know. And, you know, if you read, you know, kind of his approach to deal making he would always try to separate, you know, the personal
relationship from the negotiation at hand. And you saw that, you know, that's the kind of way he approached Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, and
Erdogan.
But what I was trying to explain, you know, and I think, you know, he was successful in doing so at times, is that Vladimir Putin has to be
confronted with real costs, you know. And, you know, we did have some major confrontations with Putin. You know, he didn't get the sanctions relief he
wanted. He didn't get the foreign policy decisions he wanted until President Trump, I think, disastrously reversed his Afghanistan policy and
initiated what became under the Biden administration a humiliating, you know, self-defeat and deadly, you know, retreat from Kabul.
So, I'll tell you, Christiane, I mean, I couldn't figure it out, you know, but I think it has a lot to do with President Trump's, you know, desire to
get like a big deal.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But you also --
MCMASTER: And what he described himself as like -- he described himself as this affinity that he has for these -- you know, these so-called tough
guys.
AMANPOUR: But you also talked about -- you know, I think this is the sentence, there was a competition for sycophancy. In other words, within
the White House and the advisers. And he just liked that kind of -- that stuff, from whether it's from dictators and autocrats or whether it's from
you guys who are around him.
MCMASTER: Right. So, you know, I mean, it's no surprise that, you know, people try to influence the president of the United States, right, you
know, the most powerful leader on Earth, and that's people within the administration who might be in the administration to advance their own
agendas rather than to help the president, you know, determine his policies and determine his agenda. And then, of course, this relates to foreign
leaders as well.
And, you know, hey, it's no surprise that, you know, people would play to Trump's ego. And in writing the book, I thought, you know, should I put
this in the book? I wasn't sure, you know, but I thought, hey, well, Vladimir Putin understands how he would try to press President Trump's
buttons. If I write it, maybe if President Trump does get re-elected, he'll be less susceptible to this kind of tactics.
AMANPOUR: You wrote also that you credited Trump with the tough on China policy, the tariffs and things like that, tough on Syria when there was
chemical weapons firing, he fired back at the missile bases. But you also - - you know, I wonder what you think about Trump in a second term. Because he defends himself and many of his former policymakers defend his time as
no new wars during his period and there will be no new wars during a second Trump term.
Is that something that -- do you -- I mean, do you take that as a conscious thing, no new wars?
MCMASTER: Well, you know, I think, of course, who wants war, right? But I think what will be important is, you know, how President Trump reconciles
some of the opposite views that he holds in his mind at times. And, you know, he believes in peace through strength. He talks about peace through
strength. He talks about strengthening the military, which I think is very important at this moment, Christiane, I think we're on the precipice of
even wider wars. We had these cascading conflicts in Europe and the Middle East, and they could cascade further in the Indo-Pacific.
Look how aggressive the People's Liberation Army Navy is being against a treaty ally of the United States and the Philippines. You know, so I think
what President Trump, you know, I think would need to reconcile is that instinct, you know, towards peace through strength and his impulse to
withdraw from some overseas military commitments that I think are essential to deterring war, right?
[13:15:00]
And so, I -- you know, I would hope that he would recognize, you know, the need for forward position capable forces and he would continue, right, to
make the argument he makes about burden sharing and against, you know, allies who might free ride on the American taxpayers' largest, you know,
but don't undermine those alliances. Those alliances are more important than ever whether it's in Northeast Asia, with our relationship with the
South Koreans and the Japanese or in Europe with our NATO allies.
AMANPOUR: I have a final question I want to ask you, and that is about, you know, character for the job. You yourself wrote that On January 6th,
Trump abandoned his oath to support and defend the constitution, which is the president's highest obligation. Then we have another general, the
general by the name of Larry Ellis, who said, essentially, he's denigrated our brave men and women in uniform. He said, if service members, any of
them, ever act just a little bit like Trump, then he or she would be immediately removed from the leadership position, admonished, and separated
from military service.
So, that's a big question, quoting others, whether you think that they have a point there, because so many are very concerned and are very worried
about a second Trump term.
MCMASTER: Yes, Christiane, well, you know, I don't think it's my place to make that judgment for the American people who are going to be voting, you
know, for or against President Trump, or for or against, you know, Vice President Harris.
What I really want to do is tell the story of what I think was a really important pivotal year in recent American history. Tell it like I saw it,
as you mentioned, criticized President Trump, you know, for what I think was selfish behavior and an abdication of his responsibility under the
constitution, but tell the story and let readers -- you know, let the American public, in this case, make their own judgments.
You know, I think there's a lot of what people know they're going to get with President Trump, but I think there's a lot that -- you know, that we
don't know yet what did he learn, you know, from his first four-year term and how we would -- how would he apply that, you know, to another term as
president.
AMANPOUR: General H. R. McMaster, thank you very much for being with us.
MCMASTER: Thank you, Christiane. Great to be with you again.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back. Israel's military says that it rescued a hostage from an underground tunnel in Gaza. 52-year-old Kaid Farhan Al-Qadi spent
326 days in captivity after Hamas militants abducted him last October 7th. This as mediators in Cairo continue to negotiate a ceasefire deal that
would see the hostages freed and an end to Israel's military campaign in Gaza.
[13:20:00]
And the urgency is mounting, as hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children are at risk of now contracting polio after Gaza's first case in 25
years was detected earlier this month.
CNN Political and Global Affairs Analyst Barak Ravid joins me now. So, Barak, we are learning more details now about this rescue operation and it
appears that the IDF was just as surprised to see this hostage alone without his captors as they were conducting an operation in a Gaza tunnel.
Tell us more about what you're learning.
BARAK RAVID, CNN POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST AND AXIOS POLITICS AND FOREIGN POLICY REPORTER: Hi, Bianna. Well, what I hear from Israeli
officials is that the IDF and other forces like the Shin Bet Intelligence Service were in the area as part of an operation to go through -- go into
tunnels in Southern Gaza. And one of the assessments was that there might be hostages there. They didn't have accurate intelligence that Farhan Qadi
was there or any other hostage, but there was a general idea that there might be hostages.
And while they were going through the tunnel underground, Farhan Qadi, this hostage, actually was the one who made contact with them because he heard
them going underground, in the tunnel. He heard the Hebrew that they were speaking with each other and he just called on them and said, hey, I'm
here. Come get me. And they found him there without his captives. The assessment is that his captives ran away when they heard the soldiers
coming in. But -- so, this operation that, you know, the goal wasn't to get him specifically, but the result was a pretty good.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and we've heard from IDF officials, Daniel Hagari, making clear that this isn't an operation they believe they can replicate, that
the -- seeing these hostages come home and seeing this devastating war come to an end or at least a long-term ceasefire would require some sort of
hostage and ceasefire deal.
We know the negotiations now are ongoing. You've reported that they are continuing in Doha with Israeli officials traveling there as well. What is
the status of these negotiations and does the news at all today put more pressure, particularly on Sinwar to say yes to a deal from his end?
RAVID: I think that, you know, there are some Israeli officials who say, look. we know we can't replicate this operation 108 times to get all the
remaining hostages out. But every time we do replicate it and get one person out, two people out, even if it's once a month, once every two
months, every such operation basically takes another bargaining chip from Sinwar. And they hope that this operation will make him rethink his
position and say, you know what, I'm losing more and more hostages every other week. So, maybe it's time to get a deal.
But there are other Israeli officials who say that this will not influence the negotiations at all. And that Sinwar's basic position is that he wants
to lead to the end of the war. And this is the only thing that's interesting because he wants Hamas to survive in power in Gaza, and that's
his only -- his one and only interest at the moment.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, it's interesting that you frame it that way because we do know that Prime Minister Netanyahu spoke with al Qaeda today in the
hospital where he is recovering and Netanyahu said, we do this in two main ways, through negotiations and rescue operations.
But as you say, if those that are arguing that it is these military operations that do bring these hostages home, it's one a month, one every
two months and many continue to note that these hostages don't have that much time to live. As Netanyahu was criticized for saying earlier that
they're not dying, they're suffering. Others saying, no they're actually dying.
So, talk about now the schism that continues to come to light from military and defense establishment officials and the Netanyahu government, which may
believe that these types of operations and more pressure on Hamas in Gaza will get them ultimately to a result.
RAVID: Yes, Bianna, it's interesting you mentioned the call between Netanyahu and Farhan Qadi, the hostage who was rescued today, because, you
know, there was an amazing moment during that call when, you know, a person who was in captivity for almost a year, who was weak, who did not have
sufficient food, and he's being rescued and the prime minister calls him and you know what he told him? After 30 seconds, when they were speaking,
he told him, prime minister, there are still people in Gaza waiting, people who are hostages, who are waiting to also be rescued and released, which to
me was an amazing moment.
[13:25:00]
And obviously, if you want to get the big numbers of hostages out, the way to do it is through a hostage deal. And minister of defense, Yoav Gallant
thinks that way. Many other members of the cabinet think that way. Obviously, the heads of Mossad, Shin Bet, IDF, all of them think that the
only way to get a big number of hostages out is a deal.
But the problem is, that, at least for now, Prime Minister Netanyahu's maximum position does not meet Yahya Sinwar's minimum position. There's a
big gap there. And it seems that both sides at the moment are not willing to take the extra step to close that gap.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. As you mentioned, Defense Minister Gallant tweeting following the news of this rescue today, that Israel is committed to taking
advantage of every opportunity to return the hostages home to Israel, and he's made clear that comes through a ceasefire and hostage deal right now,
and also perhaps averting a larger scale war in the north between Hezbollah and at least giving the IDF time to recover, right, and rest before, if we
do see a larger scale war between Israel and Hezbollah.
Ultimately, Barak, is this going to take more pressure from the United States itself and the Biden administration, not just on Hamas and Yahya
Sinwar, but on Prime Minister Netanyahu publicly?
RAVID: There's no doubt. It's -- you know, this is a yes with a capital Y. And I'll tell you why. Because last week, Secretary of State Blinken was in
Israel. And after his meeting with Netanyahu, he said something that even the Israeli negotiation team did not understand why he said it. When he
said that Netanyahu basically accepted the deal, which was not true.
And Israeli negotiators had to call their U.S. counterpart and say, why did the secretary of state say this thing? Because this took the pressure off
Netanyahu to move forward for a deal. And I think this was -- you know, last week, this was a major setback. And I heard it from at least six
Israeli officials who are involved that what Blinken said last week was a setback for those negotiations, at the same time there needs to be pressure
also on the Yahya Sinwar.
And what I found is that the Biden administration is having a hard time putting pressure on both sides at the same time. And therefore, every time
it puts pressure on one side, giving the other side the free pass. And until the Biden administration doesn't find a way to put pressure on both
sides at the same time for, you know, a long period, we will not be able to move for a deal, in my opinion.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and we know that in the remaining five months that he will be in office, President Biden has said that this is one of his top
commitments and focus is on a hostage and ceasefire deal. And a reminder that eight of the hostages that remain in Gaza are American. Five are still
believed to be alive. Barak Ravid. Thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate it.
RAVID: Thank you, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And still to come tonight, the plight and persecution of the Rohingya people. Anna Coren speaks to survivors in a refugee camp in Cox's
Bazar, Bangladesh. That special report, after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:30:00]
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back. We now go to Myanmar, where seven years ago, the world was shocked by the horrific massacres and ethnic cleansing of the
Rohingya, the minority Muslim community there. Thousands were killed, and many more were forced to flee over the border into Bangladesh. Well, since
then, the country's military junta responsible ended for Myanmar's nascent democracy by force. And now, the nation is gripped by civil war.
But what has not changed is the persecution of the Rohingya, who are still threatened by violence, this time at the hands of a rebel group. Hundreds
of Rohingya have reportedly been slaughtered in recent weeks, as history seems to be repeating itself. Correspondent Anna Coren met with traumatized
survivors at a refugee camp in Cox's Bazaar, across the border in Bangladesh. And a warning, this report contains graphic video and
descriptions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From a hut made of bamboo and tarpaulins, sits a woman in sufferable pain. Across her lap lays her four-
year-old daughter. As she pulls at her mother's headscarf, 22-year-old Hamida (ph) recounts the trauma she says she endured only weeks ago.
I have no idea how many soldiers entered my home, but they beat me, held me down, and raped me. I kept screaming and my husband ran in. They tied him
up and made him watch as more soldiers raped me. Then one of them slit his throat with a big sharp knife.
Yet, the horror was just beginning. As hundreds of her fellow Rohingya in Rakhine State, Western Myanmar, were massacred.
Oh, my father, oh, my brother, why are there so many dead bodies, cries the man filming.
Myanmar's military junta and the rebel Arakan army have been waging a bloody battle in Rakhine State as part of the country's ongoing civil war.
And while the Rohingya, a Muslim minority denied citizenship in a Buddhist majority country have been caught in the crossfire, what's been unfolding
bears all the hallmarks of an even darker time.
Back in 2017, the Rohingya were targeted in what U.N. experts labelled genocide. More than 10,000 were killed, while over 700,000 fled into
neighboring Bangladesh. The military carried out those atrocities, but this time, survivors say the ethnic Arakan army is to blame for the targeted
attacks against civilians, a claim its leadership denies.
MUJIBUR RAHMAN, ROHINGYA MASSACRE SURVIVOR (through translator): The Arakan army were killing everyone they could find. They slaughtered my
wife, children, and my elderly mother. I heard their screams before they were beheaded. I have no one left.
COREN (voice-over): As thousands of Rohingya fled the township of Maungdaw to the Naf River, the border to Bangladesh, eyewitnesses say the 5th of
August was one of the deadliest attacks.
ABDUL BASHAR, ROHINGYA MASSACRE SURVIVOR (through translator): When we reached the border fence, we saw a large bomb fall on a group of people,
killing many, including my son, sister, and her baby. There were so many bombs falling, so many dead bodies, it felt like the end of the world.
COREN (voice-over): Witnesses say more than 200 people were killed on the riverbank that day. This woman in total shock sits among the dead.
[13:35:00]
The U.N. human rights chief has condemned the attacks, claiming that despite the world saying never again, he fears we are witnessing a repeat
of the atrocities seven years ago. The only way for these people to get to Bangladesh is to beg or pay a broker hundreds of dollars for safe passage.
But crossing the three-kilometer stretch of water on a fishing boat isn't without risk. Multiple drownings have occurred in recent weeks. While
Bangladesh's border security tries to prevent more Rohingya from coming in.
With reports a boat is arriving, we head to the shore. A full moon lighting up the water. The Coast Guard appears. The location is scrapped. But the
sounds of what the Rohingya are continuing to flee can be heard in those pre-dawn hours.
COREN: For the past few weeks, boat after boat filled with Rohingya have made the dangerous journey across the Naf River. It's a risk they're
willing to take to escape the atrocities in Myanmar. But here in Bangladesh, if they're caught, they'll be sent back to where they fled
from, confirming their status as the world's most unwanted people.
COREN (voice-over): If successful in evading authorities, this is where they end up, Cox's Bazar, the site of the world's largest refugee camp,
home to around 1 million Rohingya. It has become a sanctuary for a persecuted people, but these huts in the mud are not permanent homes.
Bangladesh's new interim chief, Muhammad Yunus, has promised to continue supporting the Rohingya in his country, but has appealed for the fighting
to end so they can return to their homeland with safety and dignity.
For these four children, there is no going back. Their parents were killed in front of them. And if it wasn't for their grandmother, who grabbed the
six-month-old baby from his dead mother's arms guiding them to safety, she says they all would have died.
Oh, God, she cries. Sadness will not go from our lives.
Anna Coren, CNN, Cox's Bazaar, Bangladesh.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Such a difficult, but yet such an important report from Anna Coren. Our thanks to her. Well, coming up for us, the next frontier, "Wild
Wild Space," a new documentary exploring the intense rivalry between rocket companies. That's up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back. Well, just above our heads, a new space race is underway. It's no longer superpowers leading the charge. Now, a handful of
tech companies and billionaires are vying for their piece of the sky.
Elon Musk's SpaceX is the latest to push the cosmic boundaries with the Polaris Dawn mission, a five-day trek to orbit with the aim of conducting
the first commercial spacewalk. The private space company is even coming to the rescue of two NASA astronauts currently stranded in space, who will now
return to earth in a SpaceX capsule.
Well, now a new HBO documentary "Wild Wild Space" delves into the fortunes and failures of these space pioneers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five, four, two, one, go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've heard about the billionaire space race. This isn't that movie. We're in the midst of a revolution in space. It's like
the Wild West.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: I spoke with Ross Kauffman, the director of the film, and Ashley Vance, the author of the book that inspired it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Ross and Ashlee, thank you so much for joining the program. What a fun film, "Wild Wild Space", obviously a play on the word Wild Wild
West. And really, you've opened viewers up to a new frontier, and that is space exploration, particularly in a private sector.
And, Ashlee, this is an industry you've been covering so closely for many years, and it's fascinating to see how much it's grown just exponentially
over just the last few years with regards to technology, innovation, finance, investment, and real interest.
Let's just start with the number of satellites that we saw in space because prior to 2020, there were about 2,500 that is growing now, more than
doubled and you're anticipating that will continue to grow exponentially. How does that impact the everyday American, everyday human on planet Earth?
ASHLEE VANCE, AUTHOR, "WHEN THE HEAVENS WENT ON SALE": Well, it's a -- it's just a huge change. You know, for 50 or 60 years, space really was
governed by a handful of governments. They moved relatively slowly. It was quite controlled. Wealthy people in the past and corporations had tried to
commercialize space and failed over the last 20 years. And then, as you mentioned, in the last five years, this all suddenly started to click.
And so, with the book and the film, I just wanted to -- you know, I would say they're both funny, they're generally optimistic, in a lot of ways, but
I wanted people to be aware that this regime that had been in place for decades, where governments controlled space has changed and companies now
control space. And this is going to have a big deal for the rest of us.
People hear about Starlink all the time, which is SpaceX's internet satellite service, delivering high speed internet all over the world. We're
imaging our planet like never before. And so, there's this incredible amount of activity in space. It has nothing to do with space tourism, going
to Mars, going to the moon, it's building a business right above us.
And so, you know, this is -- to me, it's going to impact all our lives because this is the next step of our modern infrastructure being created
right above our heads.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and it's impacting everyday life as you see. But so much of the film and what makes the film work are these rich characters and
these entrepreneurs who were friends, who were rivals, who have this vision, their own visions, but a lot of this is a corroboration, a
collaboration between these visionaries and these also businessmen, turned businessmen.
And, Ross, I want to -- let's talk about these characters. They include Chris Kemp, who was the founder and CEO of Aster Space, Peter Beck is the
founder and CEO of Rocket Lab, Will Marshall, the co-founder and CEO of Planet Labs, and Pete Worden, a retired U.S. Air Force general. You could
make a film about each of these individuals on their own. But what surprised you the most when you learned more about their backgrounds and
about their visions?
ROSS KAUFFMAN, DIRECTOR, "WILD WILD SPACE": I mean, first of all, there were several amazing characters to choose from. Ashlee's book covers the
whole world. And a lot of these entrepreneurs who are, you know, working in the space. So, at a certain point we had to really sort of cut down and
figure out, all right, who are we going to choose? Who are we going to focus on?
And at a certain point, I felt that there was this idea of a found family, which I love, and a lot of my films sort of are -- end up being about a --
you know, found family. And where Pete Worden is this kind of father figure to these young entrepreneurs and, at a certain point, just engineers young
scientists. And Pete Worden found them in NASA, or brought them into NASA.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Let's play a clip featuring one of these characters, Chris Kemp.
[13:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS KEMP, FOUNDER AND CEO, ASTER SPACE: This is our last day in our launch window. We're going to get it this time. It's going to happen. It's
going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think so too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Counting down.
KEMP: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: What's fascinating, Ashlee, is that so much of the success of these companies, in fact, all of their success is based on just a few
seconds of all of their hard work, years of collaboration, years of investment. It's all about these launches and whether or not they are
proven to be a success. And even watching this, I was watching it with my 12-year-old, it was sort of a nail biter. I was like, do you think it'll
launch? Do you think it'll be a success? He's like, I don't know.
And at some point, they all have their own successes. But it is interesting, as you chronicle in the book and as we see in the film, they
all have their peaks and valleys. So, you know, it ebbs and flows in terms of success. And I guess that's the model, right, it's a big risk that comes
with a lot of opportunity but a lot of potential loss too.
VANCE: Absolutely. I mean, it was one of the joys of making this movie is, I think, most people, anytime we've seen a space story, historically, it's
our best and brightest, and maybe there's a problem and it's being solved by these, you know, room full of a thousand MIT PhDs. It tends to be these
glorious affairs. And what I wanted to show -- what we wanted to show in this film is what it looks like day to day.
I mean, it is the most binary industry you could be in. Your product either works or it blows up in front of everybody else. And there's a lot of
struggle that goes into that, that clip with Astra, you know, that was one of the sort of few moments where everything works right. And everything on
these rockets has to work every time or your business evaporates.
GOLODRYGA: Ross, I'm wondering, you know, as opposed to Ashlee, who spent a lot of time focusing on this specific area, for you, I would imagine that
was not the case. What did you learn coming out of this project, in the sense that the takeaway for you is not that this is just an investment, I
would imagine, in billion-dollar companies, but it's also an investment in the future and how it impacts our lives here on Earth?
KAUFFMAN: Absolutely. I was kind of taken by the idea that no one -- like, we don't know about this area of space right now, lower Earth orbit, it has
so much potential, but it also is fraught with issues and difficulties like we're dealing with down here on Earth.
GOLODRYGA: Explain low Earth orbit, because that's where all of this takes place.
KAUFFMAN: Go ahead, Ashlee.
VANCE: This is part of the heart of what we're trying to talk about is, again, people focus so much on space tourism and all these other things,
but low Earth orbit is where the action is. That's where the money is. It's about 120 miles up. It starts 120 miles up from the surface of Earth. It's
really where most of our satellites go. So, most of our communications, infrastructure, imaging, science is taking place in that area. Think of it
as kind of like a computing shell that's surrounding the planet. And so, yes, that's the heart of what we're looking at in this film.
GOLODRYGA: And, Ross, continue your thought about the perils and the rewards of what's taking place here in low Earth orbit.
KAUFFMAN: Yes. There's so much at stake, and it really is controlled by a few. Of course, there's Elon Musk, but there are these satellite companies
that are looking down on us every day. Now, they can be doing some amazing work, and some work that helps the planet. They can look at the
environment, they can really do incredible things, but that also, on the flip side, you know, there's privacy issues.
And there's huge -- there's such a responsibility for these private individuals to hopefully make the right decisions and do the right thing.
But it's capitalism, you know. And a lot of times it comes down to the bottom line.
GOLODRYGA: And you sort of hinted at Elon Musk earlier. Let's just go there now. Ashlee, you wrote a book, one of the first Musk's biographies.
It's funny how you talk about it in the film and Elon's reaction to that. You still communicate though. So, I'm not sure what your relationship is at
this point.
[13:50:00]
But without taking away any credit that he really deserves about the investment that he made in this field, in particular with Starlink and the
impact that those satellites have had around the world. And we've come to know them in our vernacular covering the war in Ukraine, for example. It
does raise the question of how much power can one man have and is this sort of a benevolent dictatorship that can be turned and on regarding his
control over these satellites and having the capability that no government, including the United States really has.
VANCE: Yes. I mean, we're in a new era. You mentioned earlier going from 2,500 satellites in 2020, we just crossed over 10,000. You know, so this
number has been doubling almost every year. SpaceX is the largest driver of this huge increase in the number of satellites. Starlink has thousands upon
thousands of satellites now and is the world's biggest satellite company.
You know, to your point, a lot of this is the function of Elon and SpaceX moving very quickly and doing what other people had only dreamed of, the
U.S. government has spent decades hoping to make the satellite internet system, and just kind of failed to do it. But now, we find ourselves in
this spot where this one individual, this one very mercurial individual, and this one company that really has no rival in space at the moment. There
are some coming. And so, you know, I think this issue will lessen over time.
But for right now, if Elon wants Starlink working in Ukraine, he can have that. If he wants to turn it off in different regions, as he has done in
the past, he can do that. And there really is -- there's no backstop that the European government has, even the Chinese government has or the U.S.
And, you know, I think we see this pattern repeating as billionaires take on more and more of the role that maybe governments had in the past.
Like today, the world's largest A.I. supercomputers are not being built by governments, they're being built by companies like OpenAI and Microsoft and
Google. And so, you know, this is kind of par for the course, I think, in this modern era.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And governments, including our own here in the States are contracting out to these companies. I mean, that's how they gain luster and
momentum and investment is when they can win that big government contract. Quite a difference from where things were a few decades ago.
Let me ask you, Ross, about something else that we've become very familiar with, especially in regards to covering wars now, and that is open-source
reporting. And a lot of that is thanks to these satellite images. Planet Labs is one of the companies that's featured heavily in this film. And
that's their area of focus in particular. Let's show a clip and then talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Planet was the very first company ever to be able to take photos of every spot on Earth every day. And this is useful for a lot
of things. You can gather environmental data around things like deforestation, land use, and drought. And then, some very practical things
like helping a farmer decide when to harvest their crops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can actually tell the crop type. Is this corn or wheat or soy or whatever? We can tell how well it's doing, where it needs
to add water, an early sign of a health problem, which can improve their crop yields by 20 or 40 percent. That can help feed the planet more
efficiently.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The things that we're already learning about the Earth from the planet's satellites are amazing. There's a massive breakthrough.
They've changed the entire satellite industry forever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: This was a company -- and Will Marshall, who was the co-founder and CEO of Planet Labs, this was a company, in watching this film, Ross,
where I saw instantly the real-life impact that a company like this has on our everyday life here, whether it's in covering wars, whether it's
covering climate. I'm wondering if that was sort of the takeaway you had, and, wow, this isn't even something that we have to imagine in the future.
This is already happening right now.
KAUFFMAN: Absolutely. I was just taken with not only what is happening with the satellite industry and what Will Marshall and Robbie Schingler and
Planet Labs are doing, but the fact that this is controlled by, you know, a couple of very kind of genius scientists, but also, in the beginning,
they're well-meaning, they're kind of space hippies.
And as the film progresses, we understand that there's more to it and it's very complicated. They have a huge amount of responsibility. And, you know,
the future is in the hands of these, you know, young entrepreneurs. And I kind of liken it to the internet, you know, things have gone awry in a way
with the internet, with social media.
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: All of this really is uncharted territory with regards to what happens on low Earth orbit in space as well. So, maybe there are some
lessons to be learned. But it is a fun film to watch, a wild ride, and I have to say, it brings out the best in you in terms of just
entrepreneurship and feeling exciting -- excitement to watch these launches happen. So, thank you so much, Ross and Ashlee. We appreciate the time.
KAUFFMAN: And thank you for having us.
VANCE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And the HBO original documentary film "Wild Wild Space" is available to stream now on Max. And just to note, HBO and CNN are both
owned by Warner Bros. Discovery.
And finally, for us, it's the reunion that Britpop fans have been waiting decades for. Remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Of course, "Wonderwall" by iconic indie rock group Oasis. And now, fans will once again get a chance to hear that '90s smash hit
performed live. That's right, live. Fifteen years after they split, they're getting the band back together for a reunion tour. So, far, announcing
dates in the U.K. and Ireland next year. Putting to bed, at least for now, the infamous feud between the Gallagher brothers. Never say never, I guess.
Well, that is it for now. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
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