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Amanpour
Interview with Palestinian National Initiative President Mustafa Barghouti; Interview with Released Israeli Hostage Nili Margalit; Interview with Musician, Songwriter and Producer Jack Antonoff. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 28, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up. A major escalation in the
West Bank. IDF operations kill at least 10 people, according to officials. Palestinian politician Mustafa Barghouti joins me from there.
Plus, former Israeli hostage and nurse Nili Margalit tells me about taking care of her fellow captives underground in Gaza and her plea for the rest
to be brought home.
Also, ahead, he's behind some of pop's biggest hits. Superstar musician and producer Jack Antonoff in the studio to talk about his new album and
working with Taylor Swift.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
And we begin in the occupied West Bank, where major Israeli raids and airstrikes, the most expansive in years, have killed at least 10
Palestinians. The IDF says it was working to thwart terrorism in Jenin and Tulkarm.
In the past hour, Jordan's foreign minister has condemned Israel's actions, saying, quote, Israel's expansion of its war against Palestinians in the
occupied West Bank is a dangerous escalation that must be stopped. And he went on to blame the radicalism of this Israeli government.
Meantime, Israel's foreign minister had posted on X that the same strategies Israel has used in Gaza must be used in the West Bank, quote, we
must address this threat with the same determination used against terror infrastructure in Gaza, including temporary evacuation of Palestinian
residents and any necessary measures. He went on to say, this is a war and we must win it.
So, let's now bring in politician Mustafa Barghouti. He's president of the Palestinian National Initiative Party, and he's joining me from Ramallah in
the Occupied West Bank. Mustafa Barghouti, welcome back to the program.
Can I first start by asking you to put this in context of size and intensity? Is it -- when was the last time you saw this scale of Israeli
operation in the Occupied West Bank?
MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE: This is definitely the largest military operation in the West Bank since 2002, when
the Israeli army under Sharon re-invaded the whole of the West Bank and reoccupied every city and every village of it. So, it's a large-scale
operation, and it's unprecedented.
AMANPOUR: So, you just heard, obviously, what your ally, the foreign minister of Jordan said. We've also heard what your adversary, the foreign
minister of Israel, has said. So, when you read on X the idea that it's going to be this, you know, same kind of operations as in Gaza, that we
might even have to, as he put it, temporarily evacuate Palestinians on the West Bank. I mean, we've been seeing this for 10 months now in Gaza. What
do you think he means by that? What do you expect to see in the West Bank where you are?
BARGHOUTI: When he says these things, we have to remember that the Israeli army is conducting a genocide war in Gaza and a war of ethnic cleansing.
They've killed so far more than 40,000 people, including 17,000 children, and they've clustered now about 1.6, 1.7 million people in an area that is
only 15-square miles. And they are attacking them, bombarding them and spreading diseases among them. Is that what he's planning for the West
Bank?
In my opinion, what Katz said means that this is the Israeli policy of the Israeli fascist government, which is to transfer the war of genocide and
ethnic cleansing to the West Bank. But we have to remember, this is a unilateral war. Because the West Bank is occupied by Israel since 57 years.
We are under Israeli military occupation. And it is totally unacceptable that an occupying power would use it's -- the might of all its army,
including air force and air strikes on unoccupied people. That's exactly what they are doing today.
This is not a war between two armies, it's practically a war of a mighty Israeli army on civilian population.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: Listen, can I ask you, because they say that it is because they've detected weapons transfers from Iran that -- and as we know,
because we've covered it a lot and we've watched a lot, they're constantly battering Jenin and places where they say there's armed resistance, armed
Palestinian resistance. And Hamas itself claimed responsibility for -- there was an attempt at some bombings in Tel Aviv and has called for
resistance.
And now, you've probably seen what Khaled Mashal has said, the former Hamas leader, that they have to return to, quote, martyrdom operations, which is
not so subtle code for suicide bombings, on all fronts. How do you read that? Is that acceptable in the West Bank? And do you not think that in
itself is a red flag and a provocation?
BARGHOUTI: I think there is an intentional Israeli effort with some media effort to exaggerate the power and abilities of some of the Palestinians
who are fighting in some camps. Of course, there are a small number of young people who are carrying guns, but it's nothing in comparison to the
mighty power of the Israeli army. And they don't need to do all these operations of invading all these places and trying to ethnically cleanse
whole refugee camps.
Now, talking about guns. It is well known and it is so confirmed and documented that most of the weapons that people have in the West Bank come
from Israeli -- from the Israeli side. These are guns that were stolen from the Israeli army by Israeli military people who sold them in the black
market. That's the main source of weapons.
So, it's not about trafficking all these guns through Jordan to West Bank, we all know how much Jordan is restricting that, how much Israel is
controlling its borders. So, all these are rumors to bring an impression as if Israel is fighting with Iran. That's not true. Israel is fighting with
the occupied Palestinian population, the people they have been occupying since 57 years, the people who have been displaced from their homes since
1948. And up until now are not allowed to go back home.
Israel used to use the names of other countries to justify their oppression and persecution of the Palestinian people. They used to say they are
fighting Soviet Union, and Egypt and Syria at some point, and Iraq. Now, it's Iran. Maybe tomorrow they will talk about Azerbaijan. I don't know.
But the reality is that this is a struggle between the Palestinian people who demand freedom, end of occupation, end of apartheid, end of this system
of oppression.
And there is a very short way to security, not only for Palestinians, but for Israelis as well. And that short way is to end occupation. We've been
saying that for decades. What do they do? Could they continue wars afterwards? In 2002, they reoccupied every single corner of the West Bank.
Did that bring security? Did that bring peace? Of course not.
The only way out of this situation is for Israel to end occupation. And for countries like the United States and European countries who are also
responsible to pressure Israel, to stop the occupation and end the system of oppression and persecution of the Palestinian people.
I think the atrocities that are happening in Gaza should be more than enough to convince the world that it is unacceptable to continue this
torture of the whole Palestinian population.
AMANPOUR: Mustafa Barghouti, you know, we see that this is happening on the West Bank as everything is going on in Gaza, but also as the United
States and others keep trying -- keep saying that there is discussions, negotiations, ceasefire, hostage and prisoner swap, et cetera.
And I'm still wondering why you think this West -- well, A, do you think there's any hope for a ceasefire? And B, why you think this West Bank
operation is happening at this time?
BARGHOUTI: I think Netanyahu did this operation in particular to stop the possibility of a ceasefire. I don't think Netanyahu wants a ceasefire. He
wants to prolong this war as long as he could. And I think he wants to continue to the war until there are American elections, because he's hoping
that Trump will come and will win.
And he knows very well that many, many voters will not vote for Kamala Harris if she and her administration do not do something to force a
ceasefire here and stop the suffering of the Palestinian people, he knows that very well.
[13:10:00]
And unfortunately, the whole Israeli society is moving in the wrong direction. You feel sometimes they are moving in the direction of fascism.
And Netanyahu postponing the ceasefire, continuing the war and now, creating another war inside the West Bank, he's gaining more votes in the
Israeli electoral system. That is, of course, what encourages him to continue.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you again, because, you know, it's -- it seems like a weird day today or any day for Khaled Mashal to pop up and say,
let's start suicide bombings again, you know. And I just wonder how you think that is going to help security and stability in the West Bank.
BARGHOUTI: I think it's a reaction to the fact that -- it's a reaction to the terrible atrocities that are happening, especially in Gaza. When you
see all these children being slaughtered, when you see Israel practically using biological warfare, where we have 76,000 cases of infectious
hepatitis now, and an endless number of cases of meningitis. And now, we started to see cases of poliomyelitis.
This is horrible. The whole population is at risk of diseases and death. Our medical teams tell us there is about 1.6 million people now in Gaza
sick with different diseases. Our medical teams told us that every Palestinian in Gaza now gets sickness three times a month, different kinds
of sicknesses, respiratory infections, gastrointestinal infections, a whole population deprived from water, deprived from food, deprived from safety,
no shelters, clustered in a very small area and bombarded continuously.
Today alone, the Israeli army killed 45 more Palestinians. Most of them were children. Of course, then you will see reactions from certain
political leaders because they cannot tolerate what's happening here. And then you add insult to injury by expanding this terrible genocide war into
the West Bank, of course, that drives people crazy.
But is this -- is there a way out of this? There is only one way. If the United States administration finally. commits to the issue of peace in
reality by pressuring Netanyahu and threatening him that he will be sanctioned and no military aid will be given to him unless he accepts a
ceasefire and an end of this terrible situation.
AMANPOUR: Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, thank you for joining us from Ramallah.
And coming up, I felt it was my duty to help, those are the words of Nili Margalit, a released Israeli hostage and nurse who helped take care of her
fellow captives in Gaza. Our conversation after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. Ten months of pleading and pain, bring them home now. So cry the families whose loved ones remain captive in Gaza.
[13:15:00]
108 Israeli hostages are still being held, 34 of them presumed dead, says the Israeli government. My next guest is among those released as part of a
deal with Hamas back in November. For nearly two months Nili Margalit was held with a group of older hostages. As a nurse, she cared for those who
were injured. Her father was murdered at their kibbutz on October 7th. She joined me from Tel Aviv with her story.
Nili Margalit, welcome to the program.
NILI MARGALIT, RELEASED ISRAELI HOSTAGE: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: I want to talk about your experience inside Gaza as a prisoner, as a hostage, but first I want to ask how you were captured and the fact
that your own father was murdered even before going into Gaza. He was murdered inside Israel, correct?
MARGALIT: Yes, my father was murdered on October 7 in the morning. I didn't know that when I was taken. I was taken around 9:00. Of course,
before that I was in the safe room since 6:30 when the alarm started. The terrorist got in -- got my -- into my house, broke the door around 9:00.
And then they took me out of the bed, with my pajama, just a short and a t- shirt with gunpoint. And they grabbed me by my two hands. And just led me into this golf cart. And from there we drove straight into the fence,
straight into the border.
AMANPOUR: Nili, you spent a total of 55 days until there was that first deal. How did you get through each day? Tell me where you were. Were you in
a tunnel? Were you in somebody's house, as we've heard? Were you in some kind of hospital? Where were you?
MARGALIT: I was -- after they took us to Khan Younis. And from there, they put us -- they took me straight into an underground tunnel. At first, I --
at first they -- I got into this big space and I met a lot of hostages, a lot of other hostages from my community, from Nir Oz community. All of them
are -- were elderly people, above 75 years old.
We spend there for a couple of hours and then they divided the big group into a smaller groups. And I was taken with a group of 10 people from Nir
Oz and Kibbutz Nirim, and they took us deeper into another tunnel, another space in the tunnels. There we spent almost all of the -- all of our time.
I was always -- all the 55 days. I was in the tunnel.
AMANPOUR: Before I ask you how you spent that time, I mean, I honestly can't imagine what it would be like to be trapped and caught into a tunnel
like that so far underground, probably very little fresh air, very little ability to move What was it like for you? Did you feel you're going to
suffocate? Did you think you were -- were you frightened of the tunnels?
MARGALIT: We were in a tunnel which was about 40 meters underground. So, oxygen was very little. We were -- the -- it was -- we felt like we are
suffocating all the time. It was really hard to breathe. And also, because there was a lot of elderly people with me, then it had other effects, you
know. It was hard for them to breathe. Someone had asthma, which it make it harder to breathe. The smell is terrible. People were wounded when they
were taken, when they were abducted from their home. So, the healing of the wound in an environment without enough oxygen, it took a lot longer than it
normally takes.
AMANPOUR: Nili, you are a nurse, you're a pediatric nurse, and you went into action to help people, to give them the medical care you could. How
did you get the drugs? I mean, these were Hamas, I guess, or some of the -- was it Hamas who was holding you? And how did you get them to give you the
medications you needed for your fellow hostages?
MARGALIT: I felt -- because of my experience as a nurse, I felt that it's my obligation and my duty to help the people that I was with. They are all
from my community, I know -- I knew all of them. They were my parents' friends, father of my best friend. So, I knew all of them and so I had a
duty.
[13:20:00]
And since I know a little bit of Arabic, because I work in Soroka Medical Hospital, which a lot of the people there are Arabs, a lot of the patients
there are Arabs, so I knew some kind of Arabic. So, I knew some kind of Arabic. And, you know, I use my senses as an ER nurse to make them
understand that the medication are important to keep the hostages alive and that it's necessary and that we are now in their responsibility and they
are responsible for our life, and that they have to give us a medication. Because otherwise, those elderly people wouldn't make it.
AMANPOUR: How did they treat you, your captors?
MARGALIT: You know, even though -- I think that my -- our captors had an interest to keeping us alive. So, we were not physically abused. But you
must understand that when -- we were hostages. They took our freedom. They put us in a tunnel, underneath the ground. We slept on mattresses on the
floor. They had the control on the food. They had the control on the water that we drank. They had the control on where and when we can go to the
bathroom.
So, when this -- that freedom is taken away from you, then you'll -- then it's really hard, then it's the feeling of desperation.
AMANPOUR: I wonder what you feel. because we -- just this week, there have been bodies returned and I think some of them were amongst the people who
you were caring for. And I want to know whether -- did you -- were they wounded from the beginning or were they wounded and killed after you were
released? Do you have any knowledge of their physical health?
MARGALIT: Actually, all of the six people that returned home last week was with me in the tunnels. At first, they were wounded but the -- with the
pills that I got, I was able to head -- to manage some of their chronic diseases. They suffered from heart disease, from kidney failure, from
asthma, from hypertension. But when I was there, I was managed to control and make a regime medication.
I know that when I left, they were OK. They were fine. Their health was not at the best, but they were OK. And they -- I know that they are -- they
were alive for at least couple of months after I got out and we know that they were killed by their captors around February, March, or something like
that.
AMANPOUR: And tell me something. I know that you believe that more hostage lives would have been saved, perhaps including even the people who we're
describing now, had a deal and a ceasefire and a hostage prisoner swap been done earlier. Tell me about your feelings and those of the other hostage
families who you are in touch with.
MARGALIT: Every day is a danger to the hostages. We see it time and time again. We heard about people that are dying in captivity right now. And the
fact that I know that I saw them and they were fine, and if a deal had been made sooner, they would be here, now, alive, and we didn't have to go to
six funerals last -- this week, which is very hard.
And the more time that the deal is not going on, the more risk that the hostages have. Every day could be their last day. We don't know that. They
could die from not enough nutrition, not enough food, not enough water. They could die because their -- the terrorists could decide that they are a
liability and they want to kill them. And so, they will kill them. Every day is a risk for them. So, that's why the deal needs to happen now. Even
yesterday, it should happen months and months ago.
AMANPOUR: And who do you hold accountable? I know that many hold the prime minister accountable and there are many, many reports that say that he
could have had a deal, but he doesn't because of his own political concerns. And I wondered what you thought about that, but mostly because
there seems to be an argument about how October 7th will be marked, and the government wants to have hostage families join in their solemn
commemorations on October 7th.
[13:25:00]
But a lot of hostage families are saying, no, we will do our own thing. And I've heard that some Israeli -- those who had asked to perform or to sing,
you know people in the community, some of them were refusing as well. Can you confirm that? Is that right? And is it a mark of protest by you?
MARGALIT: Yes, there is a protest against the government ceremony. But I think, you know, when I was taken, I was sure that this is going to be over
after a couple of hours, maybe a day. I think the government is responsible to the safety of the citizen. And my kibbutz were abandoned on October 7.
And I thought that the list -- that the reason this agreement between a government and its citizen that, you know, if -- to keep us safe and to
keep -- to get out of the hostages, and that agreement is -- has been broken.
I think that the prime minister had so many opportunities to make a deal and for some reason, I don't know why -- I don't know what they are, I
don't understand them. His own political survival or whatever it is, is choosing time and time again against other professional and military
advisers not to do the deal and to keep this war going on. And that is very frustrating. That is very -- it's heartbreaking actually.
And that the deal didn't happen yet and it didn't happen because there is one man in Israel who is responsible, which is Prime Minister Netanyahu.
And he has all the control of a human life of the hostages over there and he can bring them back home now. But he choose not to do that, and I don't
know why.
AMANPOUR: Nili, how have you adapted to life back home after your ordeal? What is it like being a freed captive? Do you feel free?
MARGALIT: No, actually, I don't feel free. I feel like, to me, you know -- the day to me is a 327 in October. I still live October 7 a day after a
day. It's really hard to adjust the life. I feel like I'm this limbo situation, limbo zone, like you are still there because my friends are
still there. It's not just my father. I have still friends over there. People -- 20 more people from our community that -- which we know that's
supposed to be a life and another nine -- like nine people like my father that we know that need to be brought back to Israel, to be buried in their
homeland are still there.
And as long as they are there, I can't go back to my life. I can't think of anything else but, how are they feeling? What are they thinking about? Did
they already lose hope? Are they managed -- to manage somehow? Are they OK? So, that question is like, I can't live, I can't rebuild my life. I can't
go over this trauma of being a hostage as long as there are still hostages over there.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Nili, we understand and thank you so much for being with us and explaining a lot of that. Thank you very much.
MARGALIT: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. Venezuela's political opposition continues its struggle, calling for worldwide rallies. One month after winning the
presidential election there, they accused the authoritarian president, Nicolas Maduro, of stealing their vote. He refuses to leave office. As
correspondent Stefano Pozzebon reports, many protesters and electoral witnesses have fled, fearful of losing their freedom and even their lives.
Many of the movement leaders continue their campaign in hiding inside Venezuela amid political violence and the threat of a government crackdown.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN JOURNALIST (voice-over): A month ago we met Victor Medina campaigning for freedom in Venezuela. He was urging people to vote
for opposition candidate Edmundo Gonzalez, who was challenging authoritarian President Nicolas Maduro at the polls. But since then, a lot
has changed.
Venezuelan electoral authorities declaring Maduro the winner of that election without showing any proof. And the government detaining more than
2,000 people in a ferocious crackdown on dissent. Medina is now a migrant in Colombia.
I never wanted to leave this way, he tells me, fleeing my homeland as if I was a criminal.
His only crime he says was serving as an electoral witness for Gonzalez's campaign.
While Maduro claims victory, the opposition has published more than 20,000 voting tallies that show that Gonzalez won the election collected by
volunteers like Medina, who took his certificate all the way to Bogota.
POZZEBON: Do you know that somebody from the opposition told me that these documents have become like kryptonite in Venezuela because the government
is hunting down everybody who was involved with the collection of the tallies.
POZZEBON (voice-over): Electoral experts told CNN the results published by the opposition match mathematically and statistically and several
countries, including the United States, have already recognized Gonzalez as the legitimate winner.
Medina is not alone other dissidents have left Venezuela in recent weeks in much more delicate circumstances.
POZZEBON: Why does this interview need to remain anonymous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, VENEZUELAN DISSIDENT (through translator): After they put out an arrest order for me and I left, the police took my wife and my
daughter to make me surrender. We are safe now but my family remains in Venezuela. And I'm worried for them.
POZZEBON (voice-over): CNN spoke with several opposition activists who are now in Colombia, Ecuador, and the United States. Fearing retaliation
against their loved ones, most asked for their identity to remain hidden while Venezuelan authorities did not respond to CNN's questions surrounding
these cases.
Before the election, one poll suggested up to a third of Venezuelans would consider migrating if Maduro stayed in power, adding further pressure to
governments already struggling to contain the migrant flows to the U.S. southern border.
Secretary for Homeland Security, Alejandro Mayorkas was in Colombia on Monday, pledging resources to address migration.
ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, U.S. SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Regional challenges require regional solutions.
[13:35:00]
POZZEBON (voice-over): Medina would rather be part of the solution, but it's really this clear. I thought these was the year we would welcome our
loved ones back to Venezuela. I feel instead, we will meet together abroad, he says.
Stefano Pozzebon, CNN, Bogota.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now, to Nepal, where a teenager is on the verge of a historic mountaineering feat as he looks to scale the last of the world's tallest
summits with the aim of conquering all 14 at just 18 years old. CNN's Lynda Kinkade reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LYNDA KINKADE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Step-by-step this teenager is on his way to making history. 18-year-old Nima Rinji Sherpa is setting
his sights on the highest peaks in the world. After reaching 13, he's aiming to become the youngest person to climb all the 14 mountains above
8,000 meters. Even though he comes from a community of mountaineers, this is still a big deal.
NIMA RINJI SHERPA, MOUNTAINEER: This is a very big advantage for the Sherpa community and even for me and for everyone, you know, like --
because before this, you cannot -- you can't imagine a teenager doing the 14 peaks, you know.
KINKADE (voice-over): Sherpas are an ethnic group native to the valleys around Mount Everest. And they're often guides for mountaineers in the
Himalayas. They carry large loads like equipment and food, fixing ladders and ropes along the way. Always a dangerous feat.
And climbing such incredible heights also brings great risks. Avalanches, exposure and high-altitude sickness can easily take over and can be the
difference between a successful summit and never reaching the peak. But Nima Rinji Sherpa says his mental state is what keeps him focused and calm.
N. SHERPA: I've kind of convinced myself, you know, like to be normally in the mountain. Like for example when I see avalanche or bad weather or when
there is an accident in the mountain, I'm not in a hurry and I don't get like nervous or something like that.
KINKADE (voice-over): Despite growing up in a family of mountaineers, Sherpa never wanted to follow in their footsteps until just two years ago.
His father, owner of Nepal's largest mountain expedition company says, for years he's been preparing his son for a moment like this.
TASHI LAKPA SHERPA, FOUNDER, SEVEN SUMMITS TREKS: He's very active and he's very fit because physically and mentally, he should be very prepared
to do the big mountain climbing.
KINKADE (voice-over): Only about 40 people have reached all 14 peaks of what they call the 8000s. They're all in the Himalayan and Karakoram ranges
spanning China, Pakistan, Nepal and India. As the youngest climber, not only has Sherpa broken multiple records, his expeditions have taught him a
lot.
N. SHERPA: I've learned so much things about nature, human body, human psychology, meeting new people, nature and, like, everything in the world
that I learned from the mountain.
KINKADE (voice-over): With his sights set on one last mountain, Shishapangma in Tibet, he's hoping to inspire others and develop -- no
matter whether he's on the ground or on top of the world, Sherpa is set on breaking more barriers.
Lynda Kinkade, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Of course, mountaineering is deeply rooted in Nepali culture, being so close to the Himalayas. But whilst foreign climbers enjoy
endorsements and publicity for scaling the world's highest summits, Nepal's ethnic Sherpas do not. Their profession, as Himalayan guides, offers a path
out of poverty. But it comes with huge personal risk and danger.
When we come back, fresh off closing out Taylor Swift's tour, I speak with musical wizard Jack Antonoff, producer of the biggest hits in pop music.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. This has been hailed as the summer of Taylor Swift. The pop sensation just wrapped up the European leg of her Eras Tour
with a record breaking eighth performance at London's Wembley Stadium. And last week, one of her closest collaborators joined her on stage for her
final London set.
Grammy award-winning producer and musician Jack Antonoff has been working with her since 2013. And he's also touring with his own band, Bleachers.
Here's a clip from their hit "Modern Girl."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And yes, Jack Antonoff did come here to join me in the studio. Here's our conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Jack Antonoff, welcome to the program.
JACK ANTONOFF, MUSICIAN, SONGWRITER AND PRODUCER: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: I have a lot to ask you, but I do actually want to start by your appearance on this stage with Taylor Swift, which was pretty amazing. Did
you expect it? What was it like?
ANTONOFF: I mean, it's -- I'm the least nervous the more surreal it gets. I'd be more nervous talking to you than being in front of that many people.
AMANPOUR: And did you know she was going to pull you out?
ANTONOFF: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: You did, it was planned.
ANTONOFF: Yes. I mean, I arose from under the stage.
AMANPOUR: Oh, you did, I didn't see it.
ANTONOFF: Yes, yes, yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR SWIFT, SINGER: I think if you scream loud enough, Jack Antonoff might come out here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONOFF: That would be cool, to be surprised.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: That's what I look like? That's me?
AMANPOUR: You tell me, it looks like you.
ANTONOFF: I guess. Do you ever look at yourself and you're like, that's what I look like?
AMANPOUR: Occasionally.
ANTONOFF: Yes, not in a bad way.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes. And wait until you get 10, 20 years older.
ANTONOFF: Does it get better?
AMANPOUR: Oh, worse.
ANTONOFF: Really?
AMANPOUR: Yes, Jack, it does. But let's talk about you now.
ANTONOFF: I'm happy with it. I just didn't know.
AMANPOUR: Good, good, good. Well, you're a young guy. What is it like? You seem to be a seriously cool guy when it comes not just to music, but who
you produce. And especially you produce a lot of very powerful women.
And I don't know whether you started by identifying women or whether it was just something that came to you. How did it start with Taylor Swift for
instance?
ANTONOFF: That started as organic as possible. We literally met completely outside of even anything really industry like kind of through friends. I'm
just playing music that we liked. One thing leads to another.
A lot of it -- my story with her is similar to my story in general, which is, it's usually -- the music that I make is not different than the music I
made when I was a kid, which is you meet someone you agree on an outlook or a sound and then you just start messing around.
But the woman thing, I don't know. I've never found a good answer to that question. And there's men in my life too.
AMANPOUR: Kendrick Lamar. Look, you've worked on 11 of her albums, but beyond, that you've won a lot of Grammys. And particularly, you've won
producer of the year for the last three years.
ANTONOFF: Yes, it's bananas.
AMANPOUR: What is -- I don't even know whether you can, but can you say what is more satisfying? What you like better? Is it producing? Is it being
a musician? Is it being a performer? Is it doing your own stuff?
ANTONOFF: I've never experienced any of them without each other. So, I don't know. I know for other people, they're very different. You know, I
have a lot of friends who love being in the studio and despise being on the road or some people get exhausted by the studio and need to perform.
I -- they're very much one thing to me. I've never been in the studio and not thought about live. I've never been on stage and not imagined what I
was going to do next in the studio. So, I -- another one that I have no good answer for.
[13:45:00]
But I find myself getting into this position sometimes when I talk about my work, where -- whether I'm on the road, which is literally moving forward,
literally, or I'm in the studio, which is thinking forward, thinking forward. I don't spend any time intellectualizing or even just any general
understanding of what I do. So, then I get here and I'm like, I don't know. I like the tour. I like the studio.
AMANPOUR: So, let's talk about your tour then, because you're here with Bleachers, your band.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And I'm going to play a little clip of you performing the song "Tiny Moves," which is from the album last month.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: We're going to play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: How'd you feel looking at it?
ANTONOFF: Like I should cut my hair.
AMANPOUR: You are New Jersey, right?
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And Springsteen is an influence.
ANTONOFF: I am New Jersey.
AMANPOUR: And Springsteen is inevitably in your --
ANTONOFF: Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: Huge. Well, he's -- Bruce is kind of like the -- stands at the top of this sound. He's the tip of the iceberg, right, which is that the --
which is -- he's what everyone hears and sees. And then, when you're from New Jersey, you know, right below there you have Southside Johnny, which is
like a huge part of that sound.
And then, when I was growing up, it was a little bit more of like the local punk scene. But the way that I've come to understand the sound, which is
something that flows very naturally through me is, I believe Jersey is the only place in the world that really hugs a city like that. You know, if you
think about Tokyo or London, kind of -- doesn't London go like this or L.A.? You know, you have New York City, you have a tiny sliver of water and
then you have New Jersey. It's almost medieval, right? Like a moat. It's right there.
And so, I think a lot about the amount -- and I don't even mean this in a poetic way, of literal energy that sort of like comes off of New York City
and then sort of drifts over New Jersey. Makes you as a kid feel like you're missing out. Makes you feel like there's something you want to be a
part of. And so, all the music to me, sonically and lyrically, feels like desperate to break out.
AMANPOUR: Well, I mean, you must get asked this all the time, but a lot of your music, your early influence, I suppose, was under the force of grief.
You lost your sister at 13. You were 18 when you lost her, she had cancer. And you said this new album began with the idea of tribute living. Tell me
about that.
ANTONOFF: I got interested in this concept of like the lens we write through. So, like, you, as a writer, you write about your life, you write
about your experience, your time. But you still have, like, a lens. New Jersey is a lens.
You know, I'm still reporting from there, no matter where I am. And then, grief is one of those lenses, too, where I'm still reporting from that
place, even if the song has nothing to do with it, even if it's about joy, even if it's about falling in love, I always find myself, in some way,
likening it to loss. And then, I just had this word -- you know, words in my head, which don't really show up on the album, but this concept of
tribute living.
AMANPOUR: And I'm going to just quote something that you've said when you announced the latest one. So, here it is, the first Bleachers album with me
and the band knowing what we know now. All 11 tracks reimagined without the armor I needed at the time, a different kind now.
Tell me about that journey and the armor then and now.
ANTONOFF: When I was starting out, I would write these songs about grief, and then I got really interested in masking them. So, some of my earlier
work was a bit, like, more maximal, and I felt like I wanted to trick people a little bit, which is, I think, a thing that is interesting to do
when you're trying to find your audience. You know, like, you don't want too broad because then you might let in some, you know, people who don't
really get you.
But if you kind of mask it, then you -- or obscure it in some way, you just find that it -- you know, I always want my music to reach people very
directly. I mean, I'm never trying to make things that are just sort of satisfying everyone. I'm happy if people like it, but, you know, I'm always
trying to do that. And with Bleachers, I just started, you know, these really intensely dark lyrics, and this really abrasive, loud music, and it
just sort of, like, filtered out anyone who wasn't going to fully get me.
[13:50:00]
But now that I have an audience, you find yourself at this point in my life feeling a little bit less like I'm testing everyone all the time. And so,
some of the work I've done lately comes from the place of being a little bit more known.
AMANPOUR: You seem quite shy in your interaction. And you -- I mean, maybe you're not. But you have associated yourself, both in your professional
life and in your personal life, with what I said earlier, with some very strong, prominent women. And not just famous women, women who are
incredibly -- women of substance, whether it's the musicians we've talked about, whether you've dated people like Scarlett Johansson, Lena Dunham,
you're married now to Margaret Qualley, who's in an amazing new film called "The Substance," which is not yet out.
ANTONOFF: Yes, "The Substance" is outstanding.
AMANPOUR: Yes, I'm waiting to see it. It's really, really edgy. You feel totally secure with very strong women and successful women?
ANTONOFF: I think so. I don't know. I mean, I'm not, I don't feel --
AMANPOUR: What attracts you to that lot?
ANTONOFF: Well, I don't feel very insecure ever really. But I have a lot of issues. They're a bit more existential, but I feel -- I've always felt
very comfortable around people who are comfortable with themselves and that's usually people who end up having some power because that's a nice
trait.
But yes, I just like -- I like people who know what they want to do and hear what they hear and just want to go find it. And then, we can have our
big crisis of the day of what we should have for lunch, not about what we want to say to the world.
AMANPOUR: One of the things you did say to the world through your profession was the "Getaway Car." You have that song, it went viral, and it
was part of the joint appearance the other night. And I'm just going to play a little bit of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONOFF: I'm in a getaway car, and losing my -- something.
TAYLOR SWIFT, SINGER: I'm in a getaway car, and you're in the motel bar, or like --
ANTONOFF: Yes, I'm in the getaway car. Left you in the motel bar. Took the money --
SWIFT: Took the money in the bag and I stole it --
ANTONOFF: Took the money --
SWIFT: Took the money in the bag and I stole the keys. That was the last time you ever saw me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK. Walk -- or first of all, I like that picture. What were you doing there?
ANTONOFF: You know, we had done a lot of pictures that day with Alex Lockett (ph), who's great, and a friend. So, I wasn't -- but I was just, at
the end of the day, and I just had it. And so, I just put the thing over my head and I kind of wanted to leave the world. It turned into a nice
picture.
AMANPOUR: But you were super energetic in that clip that we just showed.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You -- it's the story behind the story, right?
ANTONOFF: I think the reason why that video is such a big life is because one of the few videos I've ever seen and I happen to be in it, but that
really captured the moment when two people get the idea for a thing. And I don't know why she was recording that but she was and it's the only video
I've ever been a part of where I'm like, yes, that was really the moment, that was it, when we put this together and this and it speaks to that one
plus one equaling a billion. You see two people kind of one upping each other. And those are those moments when you really get the song.
AMANPOUR: I'm a little different. Jack, you have written the music for the upcoming Broadway production of "Romeo and Juliet." Should we be surprised
about that?
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes. What's it going to be like?
ANTONOFF: It'll be a big surprise.
AMANPOUR: No, but you know what I mean. Is it the Franco Zeffirelli kind of music or is it this kind of music? What kind of "Romeo and Juliet" is
it?
ANTONOFF: It's somewhere -- it's a bit, like, tense. And I've created this setup of, you know, Mellotron synthesizers and M1 stuff. And, I mean, I'm
actually like right in the middle of doing it all. But no, it's a bit odd. Yes, it's odd for what it is. It's presented in the round, and I won't give
away anything, but the staging is very interesting, and the perspective is interesting. So, previews are next month, and it opens in October.
AMANPOUR: Well, on that note, that's where we're going to end.
ANTONOFF: Really?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: That was 17 minutes?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: Wow. It was like therapy.
AMANPOUR: Well, I'm so proud. It was like -- I felt like a therapist.
ANTONOFF: No, I think I'm a therapist here.
AMANPOUR: That too.
ANTONOFF: That's -- I like this picture.
AMANPOUR: That is nice. What is that?
ANTONOFF: That's when we shot the video for "Tiny Moves." That's me and my now wife. I love the picture so much because --
AMANPOUR: It is beautiful.
ANTONOFF: -- it's also --
AMANPOUR: Is that New Jersey on the other side? No, that's New York. Sorry. Yes, yes, yes.
ANTONOFF: No, we're in New Jersey looking at New York.
AMANPOUR: It is. It's really nice.
ANTONOFF: And it speaks to the sort of quiet darkness of New Jersey, and all --
AMANPOUR: And the medieval moat.
ANTONOFF: Yes, it doesn't look like a kingdom in the distance.
AMANPOUR: Yes, it does, now that you say it, right there.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Anyway, Jack Antonoff, thank you very much.
ANTONOFF: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: And finally, Afghan women have been slapped with yet more draconian rules under the Taliban. But Taekwondo star Zakia Khudadadi will
be competing in the Paralympics, which opens to great fanfare in Paris tonight with a parade down the Champs Elysees. Spectators are expected to
line the streets cheering on more than 4,000 Paralympians.
Meantime, flourishes, ruffles, and records on court at the U.S. Open. Britain's Dan Evans clawed back the most unlikely victory from the jaws of
defeat in a match that lasted five hours and thirty-five minutes, an epic that is the longest ever in U.S. Open history.
And Naomi Osaka won her first round match, and also brightened up the hard courts with her new, colorful Nike apparel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAOMI OSAKA, TENNIS PLAYER: I feel like being able to be a part of my tennis outfits gives me, I would say, a different strength, especially the
U.S. Open outfits, I feel like they're a little bit more flamboyant. And when I was putting on my outfit today, I was like, oh, I hope this isn't
too much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I don't hope this isn't too much. That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our
podcast. Remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all- over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
