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Amanpour
Netanyahu Blames Hamas for Impasse in Negotiations; Netanyahu Blames Hamas Strategy for Many Civilian Deaths; Interview with U.N. Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator in Ukraine Matthias Schmale; Interview with Wrongfully Convicted and Behind Bars for 30 Years Ben Spencer; Interview with "Bringing Ben Home" Author Barbara Bradley Hagerty. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 04, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Hamas will pay for this, that you can be assured. We'll make sure that we extract them, that price from
them. But we are firm on our red lines, including the Philadelphi Corridor, for the reasons I have described here. I'm flexible where I can be. I'm
firm where I have to be.
I think there is the possibility of getting this deal if we stick to this strategy. I said before, we got 150 hostages out because we combined a firm
stance with military pressure. And I said that Hamas, after that, relied on international pressure, but it had weakened. And then we went into Rafah
and the Philadelphi Corridor, so it got strengthened. And they were beginning to balk. A condition that they said they'd never accept, a red
line, is that we must commit to getting out of Gaza and enabling Hamas, basically, to take over Gaza again. End the war. Get out, let them retake
Gaza. That's obviously something we couldn't do.
They said there'll never be a deal. Well, they started caving in there after we took the Philadelphi Corridor. And then, they started backing off.
You know why they waited? Why they started backing off? Because they waited for Iran to start a general war with Israel. That didn't happen. So, then
they waited for Hezbollah to start a general war with Israel. That didn't happen either.
So, now, they resort to the final tactic, they're going to sow discord and create international pressure, again, using the hostages, even after the
murder. And this is something that's not new because they started this a year ago. You should see this. I mean, this is their tactic.
This is Hamas orders for psychological warfare found in Hamas underground command post on January 29th. That's right after the beginning of the war,
2024. And this is the original document in Arabic. Our soldiers found it. And here's what it says. Push photos and videos of hostages. Put it out in
the media. Because, that creates enormous psychological pressure. Who's not affected by it? Any human being seeing these souls, these girls these
people, young people, from those dungeons, you're affected by it.
Second, increase psychological pressure on defense minister. Third, continue blaming Netanyahu. And fourth, claim ground operation will not
release hostages. That's Hamas' not only -- that's not only their talking points, it's their strategy. And their idea is, this will sow internal
discord and increase international pressure on Israel. That's what they hope to achieve.
And they hope -- they think this will happen. Well, it won't happen. I can tell you why it won't happen. I'll tell you why they'll fail. Because
overwhelmingly, the people of Israel are united. They understand everything that I said here. Overwhelmingly. You should know that. It's important.
And the second thing is, we're committed to achieving our goals. All three goals. Destroying Hamas' military and governing capabilities, releasing all
our hostages, and ensuring that Gaza does not become a threat to Israel anymore. And all these require standing firm on the things that will ensure
the achievement of these goals. And with God's help, and with our people's will, and with the courage of our soldiers, we'll achieve all goals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prime Minister -- thank you. The mother of -- can you hear me, sir?
NETANYAHU: Sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother of Almog Sarusi, one of the murdered hostages, says you sacrificed her son on the altar of the Philadelphi
Corridor. If the price of your refusal to withdraw from the Egypt-Gaza border is more hostages are killed, is that a price you are prepared to pay
and is that a price the people of Israel will accept?
NETANYAHU: I can understand the internal -- the great torment that the mother of this murdered hostage feels. And I understand her rage. I can
understand her sorrow. So, I'm not going to stand in judgment of that. I'm not going to argue with it. I'm just going to talk about the facts. I'm
committed to getting all of them out. I got more than half out, and more than half of the hostages alive out, because we employed the pressure
points. We leave the pressure, we're going to get no one out.
[13:05:00]
I'm committed as the prime minister of Israel to two things. They're right here. The first one is to achieve the release of the hostages and the
second is to achieve -- to protect the security of Israel and make sure that we have no more hostage taking, no more murders, no more rapes, and no
more rocketing of Israel. Both of them. We have to have this and this together. That's what I'm going to do. That's what I'm committed to do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I can follow up, sir? If the Philadelphi Corridor is so critical as you say, why is it you left it seven, eight months into the
Israeli ground offensive before seizing it?
NETANYAHU: Well, it was critical also to destroy Hamas, to kill about 20,000 of their operatives, to kill their senior military commanders, to
get Gaza City, to get the Shifa Hospital, which was a command -- major headquarters, to get Khan Younis, to get the central camps, and to get
Rafah, obviously. So, it took -- this was the military plan that the military and the political echelon agreed upon.
We were never going to leave -- I was never going to leave Rafah alone, and you know that. And I'm also not going to leave Philadelphi alone. I said
that 20 years ago. I said it's critical that we not leave Philadelphi when Sharon did the disengagement, I said we have to get there. So, we got there
it took a while to do, but it was a progression. A progression of military advancement that produced the result. So, we're there now.
Now, once we're in, now we'll leave? You know, we'll leave, we won't come back. You know it, everybody here knows it. Everybody in here knows what
pressure will be brought on us so that we don't come back. What price we'll have to pay if we do want to come back. It's just not going to happen.
We're going to be there, despite the pressure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CNN, please.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Mr. Prime Minister, Jeremy Diamond, CNN. I spoke to Aviva Siegel tonight, a former hostage whose
husband is still being held in Gaza. She told me that she believes that you are sentencing her husband, Keith, to die by prioritizing the Philadelphi
Corridor over a deal. And she has this question for you, is Keith going to come home alive or dead?
NETANYAHU: I'll do everything to make sure that Keith and all the other hostages come back. I'm telling you that if we relieve the pressure, if we
get out of the Philadelphi Corridor, we're not going to get the hostages back. Certainly, we're going to condemn a lot of them to stay there.
We could get a few out. They'll give us that. But they'll leave a lot with them. We won't have the pressure point. And something else will happen, we
will not be able to come back. So, we won't release all the hostages and we won't achieve the defenses that we must have to prevent more October 7th
again and again and again.
That is my responsibility. I can understand the torment of families. They don't -- you know, none of them believe that we'll get the hostages in the
first batch either. None of them, few of them, quite a few of them didn't believe it. And they came and they said, you have to get them out, you have
to get them out, you're not going to give them out, you have to make this concession or that concession, I didn't make those concessions, and we got
them out.
So, it's very hard, you know. I don't stand in judgment of these tormented souls, because they're undergoing an agony that is hard to fathom, and I
understand that. But the responsibility of leaders is not merely to share the sentiment, the emotion, but also to exercise judgment. The correct
judgment to make sure that these horrors do not happen again.
I believe that our strategy is the best way to achieve both goals, both releasing, freeing the hostages, and ensuring that Gaza never poses a
threat to Israel again.
DIAMOND: And secondly, sir, more than 40,000 Palestinians have now been killed in Gaza, a majority of whom are civilians, and these numbers are
from the Palestinian Ministry of Health, but they are backed up by the United States, by international organizations.
Humanitarian conditions in Gaza have degraded so much that diseases like polio and hepatitis A are now spreading. We have seen countless children be
orphaned. We have seen countless mothers lose their children. How much is too much, sir? At what point is it time to end this war?
NETANYAHU: Well, we'll end the war when we achieve our war goals of making sure that Hamas can't repeat such atrocities. But we're fighting this war,
a just war with just means, in fact, with means that no other army has ever fought. No other army has done, has taken the precautions that Israel has
taken, sometimes at great risk, to make sure that we minimize the number of casualties.
[13:10:00]
You talked about polio. We enable now massive vaccination of polio. We want 90 percent of the Gazan -- the people of Gaza vaccinated. I think --
200,000 I think we're vaccinated today. We've put in a million tons of food, a million tons of aid, 700,000 tons of food. That's unheard of. We've
taken -- because we think that every civilian death is a tragedy. For Hamas every civilian death is a strategy. For us, it's a tragedy.
So, we've taken precautions to avoid civilian deaths that no army on Earth on urban warfare has taken. We have issued millions, millions of text
messages, millions of flyers, hundreds of thousands of phone calls. We actually phone people and say, get out, we lose the element of surprise So,
as a result of that the -- in the most densely packed urban warfare theater in history where you have 35,000 Hamas terrorist, 50 meters above ground,
50 meters below ground, in the most intricate and complex underground terror tunnel network on Earth, we've been able to achieve the lowest ratio
of civilians to combatant deaths in the history of modern urban warfare.
It's one to one, even by those numbers of the Palestinian Health Ministry, because we can -- we've killed about probably around 18,000 terrorists,
certainly no less than 17,000. So, the ratio is about one to one. But recently, it's gone down precipitously. You know when? We went into Rafah.
And you remember what the International Community and the international press and many of you reported before that, you said they're going to be
stuck there.
That 1.4 million people in Gaza, they moved from the north to the south. You're going to have thousands, 20,000 killed. You're going to have a
catastrophe, a humanitarian catastrophe. They have no place to go. No food to eat.
Now, report honestly. Because here's what happened, they all left. They went to the humanitarian zone, which is two miles away, less. On the beach.
They have tents. We supplied tents for 150,000 people. The aid agencies supplied the rest and some of them carried their own tents. They have a
place. We supplied water lines, sewage lines, food. There's more to be done. Medical.
So, now we know how many people were killed. How many terrorists, because we counted them. And we just passed 2,000. Terrorists. Body counts of
terrorists. The people left. How many civilians died? I asked the commander. The commander of the of the division that did the Rafah
operation and the Philadelphi Corridor.
He said, Prime Minister, there are hardly any civilian deaths because everybody left. They heeded our warnings. But he said, there were probably
two dozen, and most of them occurred -- two dozen. And most of them occurred when one of our bombs hit a Hamas ammunition depot that was
planted inside a residential area. Forty people died, about 20 were terrorists, but 20 were civilians. And he said that's most of the deaths.
That's the lowest ratio of noncombatants to combatants in the history of urban warfare. That's it.
Now, report honestly. Because you accused us of something that is outrageous. And in fact, the accusations against us are outrageously false.
Humanitarian aid? A million trucks of aid -- a million tons of aid. 700,000 tons of food. A deliberate starvation policy. You can say anything. It
doesn't make it true. You repeat a lie over and over and over again. It assumes the cachet of self-evident truth, but it's false. Israel is doing,
and the Israeli army is doing, something that no other army has done in history, and we'll continue to do that. I'm not going to change my
policies, humanitarian policies, vaccination policies, combat policies, to minimize civilian casualties.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: BBC.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- from BBC News. Mr. Prime Minister, Antony Blinken said he heard directly from you that you had --
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: All right. You've been listening to a press conference held in English with the international media by the prime
minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, basically reiterating a lot of what was said on Monday in his press conference in Hebrew for the Israeli media
that we covered for you here on CNN as well.
[13:15:00]
I want to bring in CNN's Nic Robertson, who joins us now live from Tel Aviv because, Nic, it is true. He spent the beginning portion of this press
conference, I would argue, more sympathetic even and emotional in the tragic murder of those six hostages in Gaza over the weekend and the toll
that it obviously is taking on the nation and their families especially.
And then, he repeated many of the same points. The most significant is doubling down really on his argument that he will not budge on the IDF
remaining on the Philadelphi Corridor there, that essentially, from our sources in the United States and even Israel and obviously Hamas as well,
say that's a nonstarter in terms of an agreement for a ceasefire and hostage release. He said things along the line of if you stay, this will
kill the deal. And I say such a deal will kill us, in answering some questions as to why we didn't hear this defiance and in focus on the
Philadelphi Corridor specifically over the course of the last 11 months. The prime minister saying this has been a focus of his for the last few
decades. What else stood out to you from the prime minister?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: No, I think you're absolutely right. And maybe it was because he spoke in English and I could
understand him much better than I could when he spoke in Hebrew, the pathos with which he addressed the issue of reaching out to the families really
stood out to me as well. There was a real effort to show emotion there.
And it's interesting because he mentioned going to Ashkelon to visit the members of one family, who we understand. And implicitly there was
Alexander Lobanov, the 32-year-old Russian-Israeli whose wife gave birth to their second child while Alexander was still in Gaza. And obviously, his
son will never get to meet him.
He -- apparently, when he showed up at the house, Alexander Lobanov's wife refused to meet with Prime Minister Netanyahu and a couple of other
families we understand have rejected his overtures to come and speak to them. So, he absolutely was able to connect a sense of his own pain for it,
but it's not something that's really reciprocated and received at all well by those families.
There was one other thing that stood out there. He did mention some details of how the six were executed that maybe I missed it on Monday, but I think
it was detail we hadn't heard before. He said they were shot down, gunned down multiple times and shot in the head in some cases, several times that
was really detail, nasty detail that we hadn't heard before.
But I -- when listening to him explain and I think this is something that we didn't hear on Monday because here, he's addressing the international
media, accusing the international media of lying about the situation of misrepresenting of saying that the -- you know, that the -- that many more
people would die in Gaza, they would starve, and all those sorts of things.
I think the picture that he painted of Gaza, certainly it doesn't match the picture of Gaza that the world sees on their television screens and the
fact that, according to the prime minister, there's so much food flowing in. I think that's something that the people of Gaza have been telling us
for months and months and months is not a reality that they see.
And the very last point was when the prime minister was explaining to our correspondent, Jeremy Diamond, there about the limited numbers of civilian
casualties. He quoted the same example he did when addressing Congress just a month or so ago. And an example where some hostages were being freed and
a number of civilians died, and he quoted the lines though he was told by an officer involved in that, that only a couple of dozen civilians were
killed. It was when a Hamas arms dump nearby blew up. And there were only a total of about 40 people killed.
Again, this doesn't match what we were being told at the time. And the number of bodies that we -- that -- in videos that were reported out that,
at the time, the Palestinian health authorities there in Rafah in Gaza reported about 100 people were killed in that particular incident.
And I think in summation, that one incident, if you track back to many of the incidents across Gaza it -- again, it's just not a picture that the
people in Gaza would paint about their situation with such low civilian casualties. But this is the prime minister pushing his view and his
rationale to the international media and absolutely on the Philadelphi Corridor.
Everything he said on Monday, he said, again, it has -- had two days to reflect, it's not changing his mind. It's not going to change his position.
[13:20:00]
GOLODRYGA: Yes, another point that he reiterated today that we heard from him on Monday as well on the issue of the Philadelphi Corridor, Nic, is
that if they leave now that there will be too much pressure internationally from the west not to go back in.
And this is interesting because as we know, the original deal that was agreed to on May 27th, that was agreed to by the prime minister and by
President Biden specifically, would allow Israel to return to fighting in Gaza, if need be, after the first phase of the deal. So, after about six
weeks. So, in a sense, it's almost as if he's testing that agreement that was made without calling out President Biden specifically, but suggesting
that there would be too much pressure on Israel not to go back, even though that was one of the terms of the agreement that the prime minister also
signed off on initially.
ROBERTSON: And it was a very big thing when he did, because this was a point that Israel wanted. It was a guarantee that Israel wanted. Hamas was
looking for other guarantees, the guarantees that all the troops would leave Gaza entirely. So, again, there were things that may have happened
behind the scenes that we're not aware of in the negotiations, but those -- what the prime minister is saying now and the agreement that he was given
before don't seem to marry up.
And if you listen to John Kirby, as we all did, as you did, of course, a couple of weeks ago, John Kirby was saying, look, the best we can hope for
is to get a deal for the first six weeks. It was everyone's understanding that this was a very time limited deal. And the understanding of that was
that the IDF, if Hamas provoke them, would be able to go back in.
And I think there's one other point here that was brought forward by Yoav Gallant, the defense minister, over the past couple of days. He was on
television yesterday and he said, look, just to be really super clear, the prime minister was offered a military technical alternative to having
troops along the border there, one that would have solved the problem that could be done without having troops in place that would stop Hamas using
those tunnels to resupply and re-equip, which is what the prime minister says is major concern is or had framed it that way.
So, there were even, according to his own defense minister, opportunities for a solution there that the prime minister didn't take, which reinforces
that impression that he has now created, that he is in effect trying to sort of stymie the deal for whatever reason. But the idea that, A, he could
go back in, put troops back in along the border and, B, there was an alternative solution to having troops on the border, that there are to -- I
think the public and the listening public here in Israel as well, of course, apparent holes and gaps and really more questions.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and those comments from the defense minister are backed by the entirety of the security establishment from all the reporting that
we've been hearing over the last several weeks, really a schism now between the prime minister and his security establishment over the timing, the
desperate need to bring those hostages out and for a ceasefire.
Right now, the prime minister is continuing with this press conference. We'll bring you any further developments if they do arise. In the meantime,
Nic Robertson, thank you so much. And thank you all for watching One World. Amanpour starts right now.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. More civilian deaths, more destruction as Ukraine reels from a blitz of Russian
attacks. With the toll on the country and its people continuing to grow, U.N. resident coordinator Matthias Schmale joins the program from Kyiv.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN SPENCER, WRONGFULLY CONVICTED AND BEHIND BARS FOR 30 YEARS: Well, through it all, I just continue to hope and pray that the truth would
eventually prevail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- "Bringing Ben Home." For 30 years, Ben Spencer was behind bars for a murder he did not commit. Then journalist Barbara Bradley
Hagerty began digging. They tell me their incredible story.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN DEESE, TOP KAMALA HARRIS ADVISER: The U.S. is facing difficult questions about how it is that we maintain our leadership position in the
world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- with the U.S. presidential election just two months away, Walter Isaacson talks to top Kamala Harris adviser Brian Deese to get more
about her policy on the one issue voters care about the most, the economy.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. Thanks so much for joining us.
[13:25:00]
Well, the people of Ukraine have been suffering a never-ending bombardment of Russian missiles and strikes. Today, it was schools, clinics, and homes
damaged when the western City of Lviv was hit. An attack that killed at least seven people.
Lviv's mayor posting this image of a family torn apart by the latest wave, saying, this mother and her three daughters were killed in Russia's attack.
The bereaved father, the only survivor. Tragedies like this are being heaped upon the country as Russia's bloody invasion drags on. Just
yesterday, more than 50 people killed in the barrage on Poltava. And these attacks are also painful reminders of the crucial role of air defense
systems, the ones the country has been begging allies for.
As the country reels, a rapid and sweeping government reshuffle is taking place. Two cabinet members who spoke to this program just earlier this
week, the foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba, and strategic industries minister, Alexander Kamyshin, have since tendered their resignations.
But now, let's get back to what can be done to help the people who continue to pay the highest price. Joining me to talk about relief efforts, the
United Nations resident coordinator in Kyiv, Matthias Schmale. Welcome to the program Matthias, on such a grim day, what's been a grim few weeks
there. In Israel now, let's be honest, a grim 30 months.
You just returned from Kharkiv, that is in the east, the country's second largest city, it continues to be bombarded by shelling. Tell us what you
saw.
MATTHIAS SCHMALE, U.N. RESIDENT AND HUMANITARIAN COORDINATOR IN UKRAINE: So, yesterday, indeed, I was in Kharkiv and it was a particularly emotional
-- emotionally intense day. We started in the morning. I accompanied an interagency convoy, as I called it, delivering vital hygiene materials to
the front line, to a town called Kupyansk.
And when we arrived there, we were told that the front line is now two kilometers away from the town center. So, we couldn't actually go into the
town center. And the officials I spoke to, where we dropped off these hygiene materials for vulnerable people were in quite a depressed state.
Reall, I think we're preparing for the worst and losing Kupyansk again. My understanding is two years ago, it was actually de-occupied, as they say
here. Now, it looks like it may be reoccupied.
When we then moved to Kharkiv, I visited the impact site of an attack by the Russian armed forces last Friday, in which in total six people were
killed, five at the site. I saw a destroyed building and then a 14-year-old girl at another site.
And what will not leave me for a while as I was told this 14-year-old girl actually evacuated from Kupyansk a few days earlier to be in a safer place.
And in that safer place, she was killed. On that day, I also visited an underground school in Kharkiv, and, you know, it was the second day of the
new school year.
So, this 14-year-old girl that should have been in a safe place, that should have gone to school that day was being buried that day. I think that
really highlights the drama that is going on here from the perspective of vulnerable people. And if you allow them to go on -- this morning, I
actually visited Poltava that you mentioned. Now, there, there were no civilian casualties. Over 50 students in a military academy were killed.
I'll come back to that point.
What struck me there is that the civilian population was telling me that in about a year and a half, they had not really heard air sirens. So, it was
one place in the east, near -- fairly near to the front line, that was considered safe. Now, of course, they are traumatized because their worry
now is, is anywhere in the Ukraine safe.
So, what I also think we need to talk about when we talk Ukraine is not just the material needs that need to be addressed in humanitarian action
form, but also the mental, the psychological impact this has on the population.
GOLODRYGA: Especially on these children. As you note, you took to X, you were clearly so moved emotionally about the story of that 14-year-old girl
who had been evacuated to Kupyansk and then only to succumb to a bombing there. Can you talk about what more you and your organization and those who
are on the ground can do to echo the pleas from government officials, from the president on down specifically for air defense systems?
Because yes, a lot has been brought in finally after that delay in the supplemental from the United States and Europe before that, but clearly
more, much more is needed.
[13:30:00]
SCHMALE: I cannot -- I'm not a military expert. So, I cannot comment much on what the right military strategy is. I have a lot of sympathy working
here in Ukraine as the U.N.'s. highest ranking official for the pleas of government, including the president to be properly supported also in
military terms so that they can defend themselves.
What I think, in parallel to that, needs to happen is two things. One is humanitarian aid. I mentioned the frontline communities. There's some very
vulnerable people there. I met also some people that are in so-called collective shelters and transit centers. So, who've been evacuated,
particularly families with children, they need to be supported both in transit and then when they end up, for example, in the west, for example,
in Lviv.
So, there remain significant humanitarian needs. My predecessor, Denise Brown, who's been on this show, said, the worst thing we can do is to
normalize the war in Ukraine. So, there's -- again, there is, of course, as you asked, the military aspect of that, but there is the humanitarian
aspect of it. This war is not over, and we need to support and address the humanitarian needs.
And then, if I may say something a bit more uplifting, I mentioned I visited a school yesterday in one of the metro stations, underground
stations in Kharkiv. They have a total of five of those operational now, and the sixth one just opened with international support. So, where I'm
going with this is where there are opportunities to also support recovery efforts, we must do that.
I've been really struck in my more than a month here now at the resilience, as we call it, of Ukraine's civilian population and of government. Whenever
they have an opportunity, they start rebuilding and trying to -- including trying to provide their children with schooling. And that, I think,
deserves every support that we can give.
GOLODRYGA: No doubt, as this war is now two and a half years ongoing, the resilience is just incredible by the Ukrainian people. You mentioned the
schools there the start to the school year was early this week as children around the world went back to school. It's important to note that in war
zones like in Kyiv and other parts of the world, children don't have that luxury of just going to school and not having to worry about missiles
striking their school. In Kharkiv, Ukraine talking about their resilience and ingenuity, just built their first permanent subterranean school.
How effective is this in terms of at least bringing some sense of normalcy during wartime in your view? Is it for children? How important is it that
they still get to go to school? They still -- despite the dangers that alternative modes of getting them there and providing shelter is still
being offered?
SCHMALE: Yes, something that I found very interesting when I talked to teachers and school officials yesterday in Kharkiv was that quite a few
children, just before the full-scale invasion, experienced COVID, through which that and through that period they got used to online learning. So,
interestingly, in the school I visited underground, there were some children who for the first time in their life saw a classroom and we're
sitting in a classroom.
And I must say I was really impressed what the City of Kharkiv has done. I was telling them the classrooms were painted in light colors, beautiful
furniture. I was never in a nice classroom like that. So, for quite a few of the children -- and they are prioritizing the young children. So, those
first going to school or, you know, up to grade six, it is clearly a worthwhile experience combined with online learning. So, I think there is
in -- it's invaluable what they're trying to do.
Now, having said that, of course, the education specialists from the U.N. that were with me were saying no child should go to a school underground,
you know, should not experience (INAUDIBLE) should not have the possibility to go out during a break and experience sunshine or good weather. So, this
is a second-best solution. It's a good solution. It's better than nothing, the combination of online learning and underground schooling.
But what we really need for this generation of children not to be completely lost is for the war to end and for schools to reopen above
ground.
[13:35:00]
GOLODRYGA: No doubt. In the final moments that we have, can you talk about concern of Russia specifically targeting Ukraine's infrastructure again and
the concern that brings with it, especially with the winter months quickly approaching?
SCHMALE: Yes, that's clearly a concern. I've experienced myself over this past month here now fluctuations in electricity supplies. You know, we've
had days in our office where we've -- the whole day we were only able to work with the generator. So, clearly, the energy sector seems to have been
targeted and there's been massive destruction there.
I am told by my UNDP colleagues, United Nations Development Program colleagues, that over 12 million households are without regular electricity
supply as well as 400,000 businesses. So, we need to do two things. On the one hand, colleagues of mine in the U.N. are trying to help get us -- help
the population in particular get through the winter. You know, generators are being supplied. Fuel is being supplied and nonfood items, warm clothing
and shelter kits.
And in parallel, again, discussions have started with the International Community, including the U. N., on how to rebuild the energy sector and
rebuild it in an environment friendly way. So, again, you see the drama, the worry about how will we get through the winter, but you'll also see
this enormous energy, excuse the pun, to rebuild the energy sector before the war is even over.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and continued concern obviously surrounding any dangers to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant there in occupied Ukraine as well, the
largest power plant -- nuclear plant in Europe. Matthias Schmale, thank you so much for the time. Thank you for joining us from Ukraine where you can
give us a real full picture of what you've experienced there with civilians for the past month. We appreciate your time.
SCHMALE: Thank you very much.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we turn next to Israel, where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has addressed foreign media in a press conference today. This
comes as he faces a wave of criticism, at home and abroad, over his handling of the ceasefire hostage release talks.
Now, a new report by an Israeli newspaper could fuel further -- could further could further fuel those tensions. The paper reporting that it
obtained a document showing Prime Minister Netanyahu effectively derailed a deal back in July by introducing a raft of new 11th hour demands. Nic
Robertson joins me with the latest from Tel Aviv.
And as we heard there, the prime minister defiant saying that he is not moving in terms of his insistence that Israel remain on the Philadelphi
Corridor, even if that means that this peace talk, these ceasefire and hostage talks don't move forward. He took some questions from reporters as
well, and it was notable, Nic, that these questions were really framed from the family members, of those who either still have a loved one held hostage
in Gaza, or sadly, had a loved one recently murdered as well, like we saw over the weekend.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. Our Jeremy Diamond asked a very poignant question about Keith Siegel. And Jeremy had
spoken, he said, with Keith's wife surely before, and asked her what question she would ask the prime minister. And Jeremy asked Prime Minister
Netanyahu that question, quite simply this, will Keith be coming home dead or alive? What commitment can you give?
And the prime minister's commitment was, I'll bring him home, which the prime minister did not commit to bringing Keith Siegel alive, which, of
course, is what his wife, Aviva, would've wanted to hear. And what all the hostage families fear most because they fear that the prime minister is
sacrificing the lives of their loved ones, the six whom we saw over the weekend are killed and came home in coffins, because he insists on sticking
to this late change proposal for the Philadelphi Corridor to keep troops along that border with -- between Egypt and Gaza because he says it's
important to have to have a way to disrupt the tunnels that Hamas uses to bring weapons into Gaza.
He was asked a lot of times by reporters in the room why this has only become an issue that is being discussed now. And the prime minister gave,
at various times, history lessons essentially and pointed to internet searches that could be done of how many times it talked about the southern
boundary or the southern border or the importance of this -- controlling this border crossing.
Even back in 2005, when Ariel Sharon was prime minister and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that he was -- didn't support the move to pull
troops when they pull everyone out of Gaza, when they came out of Gaza back then because he wanted to keep troops along the border controlling that
border with Egypt.
[13:40:00]
So, he delved into history and continued to defend his position quite defiantly and robustly. But this is the prime minister, I think, that the
country has now become familiar and these lines they're familiar with because they were very much aligned. The prime minister spoke in Hebrew on
Monday when he gave a press conference back then. It really feels, I think, for the families that there is no opening with this prime minister to
change his mind, change his opinion.
So, when you have correspondents of Jeremy Diamond's stature asking the prime minister this question, and the only answer that he can give to dead
or alive is just, I will bring them back, that really must just feel so painful for so many of the hostage families right now.
GOLODRYGA: Can't even begin to imagine what they're going through. And a lot of the frustration also stems with the fact that Benjamin Netanyahu is
not even willing to put the ball back in Hamas' court. Because if he signs off on this, obviously, you need Hamas to sign off on it as well. And he's
not even willing to budge on that point. Nic Robertson, thank you so much. We appreciate your time.
Well, next to a story of extraordinary injustice, endurance, and hope. For more than 30 years now, Ben Spencer was behind bars, tied to a murder that
he did not commit. Turning down any plea deal because he refused to admit to something he didn't do. He researched law in the prison library to build
up evidence of just how flawed his trial had been.
But it wasn't until the journalist, Barbara Bradley Hagerty, started writing about the case for The Atlantic that change ultimately came. Ben
was finally released in 2021, and just last Thursday was exonerated. I spoke to Ben and Barbara as her new book, "Bringing Ben Home," hits stores.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Barbara and Ben, welcome to the program. Ben, let me start with you. Now, you've been exonerated. Just walk us through what that felt like.
BEN SPENCER, WRONGFULLY CONVICTED AND BEHIND BARS FOR 30 YEARS: It was an awesome day just to finally be recognized as innocent of the crime that I
was wrongfully convicted of.
GOLODRYGA: And the fact that you spent all that time in prison maintaining your innocence, I want to quote something from Barbara's piece for The
Atlantic where you went off to interview many of the people involved in this case, including the prosecutor at the time. And here's what he said.
He said, I have doubts about whether or not Ben Spencer did it. If Ben Spencer had admitted his guilt 15 years ago, he probably would have gotten
paroled. The fact that year after year after year he comes up and refuses to admit it, that gives me a lot of pause.
How did you remain so committed to the truth? And what was it that didn't make you break, if for no other reason than perhaps leaving prison sooner?
SPENCER: Well, to me, the truth is -- was always the most important, you know, and one of the things is Texas is that they expect for you to show
remorse and have -- you know, have remorse for the crimes for which you have been convicted. And I couldn't go in and accept responsibility and
have remorse for something that I did not do. So, truth always was most important to me more than my freedom.
GOLODRYGA: Barbara, what connected you initially to Ben's story?
BARBARA BRADLEY HAGERTY, AUTHOR, "BRINGING BEN HOME": Well, I got involved in this story around 2017 because a source of mine from NPR, Jim McCloskey,
told me that Ben's case was really extraordinary. Jim McCloskey is kind of the father of the modern Innocence Movement. He has exonerated, at this
point, something like 71 people. And he reinvestigated Ben's case, got a lot of evidence before a judge 20 years after the conviction. The judge
ruled he was innocent, but the high court in Texas disagreed.
And the reason I got into this case, the reason that was, it was fascinating because there are a lot of wrongful conviction cases, but here
was a case where a guy was declared by a judge innocent, and yet that wasn't enough to get him out of prison. And it made me think, oh, my
goodness, does innocence mean anything? I mean, it just showed how easy it is to convict an innocent person and almost impossible to get them out.
GOLODRYGA: And that's what led you to start doing the work and, quote, as you put it, "just showing up." Explain what that process was like, when you
went through retracing those who were involved in this case, whether it was witnesses, whether it was the prosecution, what does the just show up angle
of it mean?
HAGERTY: Well, I have to tell you that working on a case that is so meaningful was absolutely a blast. Along with a private investigator who
donated his time, his name is Daryl Parker.
[13:45:00]
The two of us went around Dallas and we just banged on doors all over Dallas trying to find witnesses, new witnesses, trying to find old
witnesses. And in the end, we got two of the four witnesses, one of the eyewitnesses and the jailhouse informant, both of them were canted on tape.
The two others, one was dead, the other wouldn't talk to us.
So, two out of four were candid and we found a new alibi witness who was with Ben at the exact time that Jeffrey Young was being killed, assaulted
miles away. And so, this was just a process of going door to door, just, I'll tell you, it's 30 years after the crime when we were doing this and
yet, you just show up and it's amazing what you find. And we found a lot of proof of his innocence.
GOLODRYGA: Ben, when you hear this, what goes through your mind? All of these people that could have exonerated you at the time.
SPENCER: Well, through it all, I just continue to hope and pray that the truth would eventually prevail in this matter. It was great to have people
who were -- who believed in my innocence and who was really working hard to that extent of -- to proving my innocence. So, I mean, it was awesome.
GOLODRYGA: Ben, this is also a story of love and resilience and letting go. As we noted, you were just starting your life, 22 years old, working at
the time, newly married to Debra who was carrying your child. And then, your life fell apart. And throughout your years in prison, you kept writing
to Debra and conveying not only your innocence, but your love for her and love so much that you decided ultimately it wasn't fair for her. And it was
time that she went on to lead her own life.
I know you've brought the book with you and you're willing to share some of the letters, the personal letters that you wrote to Debra. Do you mind
reading for us?
SPENCER: Not at all. One of the letters was that I written to her said -- stated, in the event that anything should happen to me, I don't want you or
B.J. to be consumed with hate or bitterness. I don't want either of you to demand that justice be served. Bitterness and hatred are like a cancer.
They will eat away at you until they destroy. It's just like my accusers, I don't hold any ill will, ill feelings toward any of them. I hate the fact
that they have lied on me, but I don't hate any of them. Vengeance is mine and I will repay, says the Lord.
Oftentimes, we want to put ourselves in the place of God and that -- and take matters into our own hands. What a shame because we'll have to give
account of our sins one day. What I want you to do for me is simple, be at peace because it is far more rewarding.
GOLODRYGA: Wow. Can you tell us what it was about Debra that kept her going all those years too?
SPENCER: For one, I think it was the love that we had for each other despite the fact that we were separated and apart. And also, we both shared
a child. And when we entered into this relationship, as far as getting married, you know, we meant to spend the rest of our lives together. So, I
think she kind of held on to that as well.
GOLODRYGA: And all of that was ripped away from you. What is your relationship like today with Debra and with your child?
SPENCER: Oh, it's fantastic. We're -- of course, we're getting to reacclimate ourselves with one another to get to know each other again, all
over. Of course, I never really had the opportunity to know and spend a lot of time with my son with the exception of visits. So, having a full day to
spend time with him and getting to know him, to know what he likes and his dislikes, I mean, it's just a fantastic and awesome experience.
GOLODRYGA: Barbara, you focus on a few narratives and key themes in this book, and one is just simply stating that the justice system is not blind,
it is not fair in states like Texas, but not exclusive to Texas, especially at the time for a black man who was innocent of the crime that he's accused
of committing, but didn't have necessarily the resources that could have supported his case. What was that process like for you?
HAGERTY: I really kind of excavated the criminal justice system in the course of writing this book. Ben is not alone. There are at least 3,400
people since 1989 who've been wrongfully convicted and exonerated. So, that's a lot of people. So, the system is kind of -- it's flawed across the
country.
[13:50:00]
What you see in Ben's case are several of the flaws, not all of them. You saw lying witnesses. There were three witnesses who wanted the reward
money. And so, they lied about Ben. You saw a jailhouse informant who wanted a shorter sentence. He was facing 25 years. He got out after 14
months after testifying against Ben. You had tunnel vision by the police. Police were told about a more viable suspect than Ben, and yet, they
already had Ben in custody, and so they just decided to plow through and go ahead and just continue with this with this case.
Even had, in the prosecutor's case, he hid evidence. Evidence that one of the witnesses was lying on the stand. And so, you have a number of things,
not all the flaws. There are other flaws like false confessions and things like that. But in Ben's case, you have a bunch of them. And so, you get a
wrongful conviction. But then, the other thing that you see is it is so hard to get people out. I mean, the appellate judges do not want to
revisit, question a jury verdict. And so, they make it extremely difficult for anyone to get a new trial or get exonerated.
And so, it took 34 years. It took luck basically. It took the efforts of five people, two investigators, two lawyers, and, you know, me and a
journalist to get enough evidence before a district attorney, the new district attorney in Dallas so that he would even reopen the case and look
at it.
It took serendipity to get him out. And that's kind of what's so disturbing about this is not only are there flaws in the system, but to undo the
mistake takes just dumb luck.
GOLODRYGA: So, Barbara, it's interesting that Texas is now doing more than any other state to fix the system now for wrongful convictions. Can you
walk us through what they actually are doing to remedy this issue?
HAGERTY: Yes, it's kind of funny. Not every state can be as progressive as Texas, right? I mean, those are words that are --
GOLODRYGA: At least on this issue.
HAGERTY: So, what -- I mean, what happened with Texas is I think they realize, A, they -- for one thing, they exonerate -- they still execute
people. And so, they really feel like they need to get it right. They've also had a lot of wrongful convictions. And they've gotten a lot of
publicity about that. And so, what they've tried to do is putting guardrails.
It's a lot harder to use a jailhouse informant now. The police interviews are recorded. And so, there's -- it's harder to get a wrongful -- excuse
me, a false confession. They make it easier for you to apply for a new trial. Like if you're in prison and innocent and new evidence comes
forward, they make it much easier for you to actually get access to a judge and present that evidence.
And the most important thing that they've done that a number of states have followed is that they have created what's called a Conviction Integrity
Unit. That's a unit that got Ben out. And in that unit -- it's a unit within the prosecutor's office. And what they do is they take on dubious
convictions and they reinvestigate them top to bottom. And it is probably the most powerful tool that Texas or other states have right now for
undoing wrongful convictions. And that's what got Ben out.
GOLODRYGA: And, Ben, justice hasn't completely been served in your case. Moving forward now, it is up to a judge, a district attorney, actually, to
determine whether to dismiss these charges or find that you are innocent. If it is the latter and your name will be cleared, you will receive nearly
$3 million for the time that you spent wrongfully behind bars. How confident are you that will happen?
SPENCER: Well, fortunately for us at this time, August the 29th, there was a hearing held at the Dallas County 283rd District Court, Judge Lela Mays
declared and the state also agreed that they believe that I'm innocent. So, that part of this ordeal is now behind me and now I'm just trying to live
and enjoy life and I can never regain the 34 years that were taken away from me, but, you know, I can just push forward and try to be an
inspiration to someone else and enlightenment.
GOLODRYGA: That is wonderful news to hear. And, Ben, I know faith has played a huge role for you, for actually both of you throughout this
journey. Ben, can you talk about what it's meant for you and how that's kept you going?
SPENCER: Well, to be honest, without having faith in God and knowing that God is able to sustain me through whatever situations I find myself I just
-- you know, just, in honesty, I could not have made it.
[13:55:00]
I mean, it's not me. It's only by the grace of God that I was able to endure the sufferings and trials that I went through. I mean, it's just
that faith that has pushed me forward and I continue to trust and believe that one day that the truth will prevail and it has. So, I'm just so
thankful.
GOLODRYGA: And, Barbara, for you, it was the connection with your colleague, Jim McCloskey, that led you, his faith in really focusing and
prioritizing on those who are wrongfully convicted led you ultimately to Ben's story. It is a fantastic depiction of what has transpired over nearly
four decades to an innocent man who's still -- your optimism, your ability, Ben, to move forward and not to harbor resentment is so inspiring.
I thank you both for joining us today to talk a bit more about your story and we can't wait to see what the next part of your life will be. Ben,
thank you.
SPENCER: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Barbara, thank you.
SPENCER: Thank you.
HAGERTY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: He's a special man. We turn now to Bangladesh, where many are still picking up the pieces after the mass uprising that ousted former
Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina after she ordered a brutal crackdown by police. Some protesters have been left with deep scars. But as Anna Coren
reports now, many feel that it is a new dawn for the country.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The fresh faces of the future against that of the past. Shoes hanging in the face of Bangladesh's ousted
Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina, the ultimate insult and show of defiance in a country where people on the streets achieved the unthinkable.
What began as a student-led protest against government quotas in early July morphed into a mass uprising. After Hasina, who'd been in power for more
than 15 years, ordered police to open fire on the crowds. Over the following weeks, hundreds of people were killed while thousands were
arrested.
NUSRAT TABASSUM, POLITICAL SCIENCE STUDENT: They came to my house. They broke three doors. They took me with them and, oh, my God, the physical
torture, that was miserable.
COREN (voice-over): Nusrat Tabassum, a 23-year-old political science student, says she was beaten for hours on end. Her face repeatedly hit,
some of her teeth now loose, her right eardrum burst.
TABASSUM: Without hearing it, I can't listen in my right ear.
COREN (voice-over): After five days in custody, Nusrat was paraded in front of the cameras. The only female in the group of prominent student
leaders forced to make an apology.
For fellow student Iftekhar Alam, his detainment was even more sinister. Snatched from his home before dawn, he was blindfolded, handcuffed, and
believes he was taken to a notorious military intelligence facility in Dhaka, where over the years, hundreds of Bangladeshi considered anti-state
have been disappeared.
IFTEKHAR ALAM, STUDENT PROTESTER: I was like there is no escaping from this and my life will end here and no one will know.
COREN (voice-over): The law student says for hours he was beaten with a metal rod, breaking bones in his feet. A burning cigarette was then pushed
into his fingers and toes as part of what they called their little game.
ALAM: When I close my eyes, I remember that I went to that horrible day.
COREN (voice-over): Once released, he discovered Hasina had resigned and fled to India.
ALAM: The people of Bangladesh, it is the people's country.
COREN (voice-over): The capital, now awash with colorful murals, has a very clear message. There is no going back.
As the U.N. investigates the hundreds of protested deaths, the people have entrusted interim chief Nobel Prize winner Muhammad Yunus to bring about
desperately needed reform.
COREN: The fall of the government has unleashed a spirit that has electrified every level of society. It has given a voice to everyone, from
students, to doctors, even rickshaw drivers, as they take to the streets to make their demands.
COREN (voice-over): But change doesn't happen overnight, especially in a country of 170 million people where the iron fist ruled and corruption and
cronyism reigned.
TABASSUM: My country is sick, but our people, we stand together. I believe there will be sunshine in future.
COREN (voice-over): A future this generation will continue to fight for.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[14:00:00]
GOLODRYGA: And finally, from the Paris Paralympics, the story of a runner who failed to earn a medal, but still won the real prize. After losing in a
qualifying round for the 100-meter finals, Italy's Alessandro Ossola asked his girlfriend Ariana to marry him in front of 40,000 fans. Well, Ariana
says her only thought was, he's totally crazy. But she said yes.
Ossola lost his left leg in 2015 motorcycle accident in which he also lost his first wife. He says sports helped him come back from a very dark
period. As for his future with Ariana, Ossola says, I hope everyone finds someone like her. She is my partner for life. That is the real winning
moment there. Congratulations to them both.
And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
[14:01:20]
END
