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Amanpour
Interview with Kenyan President William Ruto; Interview with Iranian Vice President for Strategic Affairs Mohammad Javad Zarif; Interview with "The Road to Wisdom" Author and Former Director, National Institutes of Health Dr. Francis Collins. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 26, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
A growing catastrophe in Lebanon as western powers push Israel and Hezbollah for a ceasefire. We have the latest from the region.
Then, with conflicts raging from Sudan to Haiti, Kenya has emerged as an important peacekeeper, even as it grapples with its own deadly protests.
The President, William Ruto, joins the show.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMAD JAVAD ZARIF, IRANIAN VICE PRESIDENT FOR STRATEGIC AFFAIRS: Over the past 11 months, the Israelis have tried really hard to drag others into
the war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: As fears of a wider Middle East war grow, Iran's vice president, Javad Zarif, gives me its lay of the land and whether the new reformist
president will improve women's rights at home.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, AUTHOR, "THE ROAD TO WISDOM" AND FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: We've lost trust in science along the way,
almost as if some people have to be the pro science, then the other people have to be the anti-science.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- former NIH director Francis Collins joins Walter Isaacson to discuss his new book, "The Road to Wisdom: On Truth, Science, Faith, and
Trust."
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York.
The Middle East and world leaders here at the U.N. are on edge as Israel prepares for a possible ground operation in Lebanon. Both sides have
launched dozens of strikes today as the death toll climbs. Twenty-three people from the same family were killed in one airstrike alone, which was
on Lebanon.
Meantime, the U.S. and France, among others, are working feverishly on a ceasefire plan between Israel and the militant group Hezbollah, while
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who's expected to address the U.N. General Assembly tomorrow, signals no such restraint. His message to
the IDF is, keep fighting.
Ben Wedeman is joining us from Southern Lebanon. So, Ben, from your perspective, are you hearing anything about a down or a ceasefire? And how
bad are these strikes on the leadership of Hezbollah? We hear yet another leader has been targeted, according to the Israelis.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, that's -- there was a strike this afternoon on the Harat Hreik neighborhood in
Southern Beirut where Hezbollah has a strong presence. We have yet to hear from Hezbollah as to who, if anybody, was hit in that strike. But that was
the fourth strike since last Friday. And definitely, what we've seen going, back to the 30th of July with the assassination of Hezbollah's top military
leader, Fuad Shukr, what we've seen is that they've been taking blow after blow.
You take into account the pager attacks, the walkie-talkie attacks, and of course, the punishing Israeli version of shock and awe, strikes that we saw
Friday, which have continued at a much lower pace. Since then, certainly, it has had a definite impact. And we've heard Hezbollah officials conceding
that they -- since those pager attacks and everything that's followed, they have taken a senior -- a severe blow from the Israelis.
Nonetheless, despite all of that, they continue to fire back. In fact, just over an hour ago, we watched as a volley of rockets was fired near the
border with Israel towards the south. So, they continue to be able to fire back despite all of that.
Now, regarding ceasefire, we did hear that Lebanese caretaker prime minister, Najib Mikati, did welcome the American-French initiative, which -
- without actually accepting it, he said that that depends on Israel's implementation of that agreement. So, we're sort of in a limbo right now.
And keep in mind, of course, that on the Israeli side, we've already heard from those two extreme hardliners in the Israeli cabinet, Itamar Ben-Gvir
and Bezalel Smotrich, that they absolutely refuse to accept any form of halt, pause, or ceasefire in the ongoing Israeli campaign in Lebanon, which
it's worth noting at this point, the death toll, according to Lebanon's disaster management authority, is 1,540.
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Put that in perspective, that's more people killed in four days, then were killed in 34 days of war between Hezbollah and Israel in 2006. Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Ben, briefly, you know, we were talking about the dynamic. Hezbollah tried over the weekend to launch a missile towards Tel Aviv. It
was intercepted. Has there been any of that kind of so-called red line busting move by Hezbollah? And as you mentioned, the Israelis keep saying
no room for a ceasefire. We're going to keep fighting. And we see what's happened in Gaza, in the West Bankm now in Lebanon that there's no stopping
them. It seems that they think this is the time to neutralize anything that's a threat on any of their borders.
WEDEMAN: Yes, they -- and in fact, and one analyst said that Israel is going back to pre-2000. It's basically reoccupying Gaza. And its ambition
is to create some sort of security zone in South Lebanon. Both of those situations were very harmful to Israel. I think the Israelis lost more than
300 troops during their occupation of South Lebanon before they were basically driven out by Hezbollah in May of 2000.
So, they seem to be going for broke at the moment, but broke, in this case, will come at a high cost because they'll just find themselves in the same
quagmire that they found themselves in Gaza and South Lebanon as they were prior to May 2000. Christiane.
AMANPOUR: It is an extraordinary situation. So, much deja vu, but the sense that everybody's going for broke right now, at least on the Israeli
side. Ben, thank you so much indeed.
And now, with so much attention on the Middle East and Ukraine, another war barely acknowledged is in Sudan. It's rapidly becoming one of the worst
humanitarian disasters as famine is declared after months of civil war.
The Sudanese Armed Forces are now mounting a new offensive to try to retake the Capital Khartoum. Many countries have tried to mediate, including
Kenya, since this war broke out some 18 months ago, killing a nascent democracy amongst all the civilians and people who've been killed.
And across the globe, in Haiti, where gangs run rampant, Kenya is also leading an international policing force to try to restore order there. But
Kenya's president has also been under immense pressure at home with a brutal crackdown on mass protests that led to the deaths of more than 50
people. President William Ruto is joining me now from the U.N. headquarters.
President Ruto, welcome to the program. Can I just ask you when you see everything that you guys are trying to figure out how to contain this week
at the U.N., what stands out for you most as the biggest danger that affects you? For instance, is it Sudan? Is it the Middle East? Is it
Ukraine? What is the big issue that's on your mind?
WILLIAM RUTO, KENYAN PRESIDENT: The international peace and stability architecture that is supposed to solve those problems. And that is the big
discussion here is how to reform the United Nations Security Council so that it stops being an impediment to world peace and security and becomes a
facilitator of diplomacy and of dialogue.
As we speak today in Sudan, we have close to a million people who are facing starvation. We are -- we have serious security issues. We have
serious humanitarian issues, and it is our position that in Sudan, thanks to the United Nations. Now, a resolution has been made so that African
peace operations can now be funded by assessed contributions from the U.N. That will give the Africa Union additional capacity to manage the situation
in our continent, including the situation in Sudan.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you, Mr. President, because you've tried to intervene in a certain way. You have hosted the RSF in your country, I
assume, to try to get them to back down. I don't know. You tell me. But right now, the Sudanese army is on the offensive again. Where do you think
the solution lies, and what response did you get from the RSF?
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RUTO: I have hosted Burhan, who is the SAF leader. I have hosted Hemedti, who is the RSF leader, I have hosted the former prime minister and a host
of political leaders and other interlocutors because I believe that the way to get Sudan out of the current quagmire is through dialogue and diplomacy.
I am persuaded like many that a military solution will not come out in Sudan.
And that is why Kenya is deeply invested and engaged in finding a solution, bringing together all the actors. This will not be solved by talking to the
military men alone, we need to talk to their political leaders, women, civil society, to find a solution.
In any case, the revolution that removed the dictatorship in Sudan was a people's revolution, which was hijacked by men in military uniform, and
they have made a mess of the country. We believe that it is time the International Community look at Sudan much more keenly because we are
having a humanitarian disaster in the offing in Sudan, especially because of the famine that is imminent. Famine is going to possibly kill more
people than the guns are killing in Sudan if we are not careful.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, you speak very frankly, talking about a mess conducted by the men in uniform in Sudan and elsewhere. And you've also
called, I heard you say, reform of the U.N. Security Council and reform of the African Union. And I'm wondering whether the African Union is on fit
for purpose and how you judge and analyze, for instance, the belt of coups that have taken place in previously democratically elected governments in
Africa, you know, from Burkina Faso and on and on. What's going on on your continent?
RUTO: I want to tell you, Christiane, that as we discuss the reform of the U.N., we are invested as Africans, and I am leading because my colleagues
in the African continent assigned me a reform of the Africa Union itself, to make the executive more fit for purpose, to ensure that the parliament
holds the executive much more accountable and to bring on board the African Court of Justice so that we can sort out issues in our African continent.
We are also working on African financial institutions, AfrEximBank, Africa Development Bank, Trade Development Bank, to build the necessary ecosystem
for us to be able to sort out our problems in the continent. So, even as we push for the reform of the U.N., we are reforming our own Africa Union. And
I want to promise that February next year, I am going to be tabling the reform initiatives and programs to the summit of the heads of state for
approval and for implementation.
AMANPOUR: Can we move across the world to this western hemisphere here, where you are also engaged and you just visited Haiti? I mean, everybody
remembers the horrendous reporting and pictures of the gang, not just violence, but control of Haiti. You sent several hundred peacekeeping and
policing forces there, and you say you're going to send more. It's still not stabilized.
What are the challenges? And how long do you think it's going to take to actually, you know, get it under control?
RUTO: I was in Haiti a couple of days ago, and I was impressed by the progress that has been made by the 400 MSS security personnel that we sent
from Kenya, working with the Haitian police. Today, the guns are silent at the airport. There is more traffic at the airport. The guns are silent at
the palace, which was under siege, the guns are silent in the national hospital that was under siege. The National Police Academy that had been
overrun by gangs today is training police officers and the port is much more calm.
My assessment, listening to the commanders, listening to the leadership in Haiti is that we need additional personnel. The challenge is resources,
logistics, and equipment. And we have had several meetings at the U.N. led by Canada. I'm going to have a meeting with Secretary Blinken after this
interview, because we believe the job in Haiti is doable, the leadership is aligned, and the forces on the ground are asking us for equipment,
resources, and logistics, and they will be able to do the job.
AMANPOUR: Let me move back to your own continent and what you just touched on, and the idea of development, prosperity, how you can only have that
with peace, right? Clearly, everybody watched what happened in your country not so long ago. You are under a crippling debt and you were trying to
figure out how to repay the IMF debt and others, and you wanted to impose taxes which were very few and scarce, actually in Kenya.
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And it backfired. People came out onto the streets, you, you know, tried to restore order. There were many people in those protests who were killed.
And then, you had to walk it all back. So, firstly, did you do the wrong thing by sending the troops out against people who were protesting that
they couldn't afford these taxes?
RUTO: For your information, Kenya is a robustly democratic country and protests are part of our democracy. The freedom of people to associate and
to choose what to do, and that is perfectly in order. And restoring law and order is also the responsibility of law enforcement agencies. What was in
Nairobi, apart from the protests, were criminal gangs that burned down parliament, burned down the chief justice office, burned down people's
property, those like happens everywhere in the world, had to be managed by our security agencies.
And any excesses that may have occurred, there is an independent policing authority that investigates and takes those who have -- may have
overstepped their mandate into account. So, what happened in Kenya is perfectly in order. We are trying to manage the situation. As you have said
yourself, we have serious debt issues. We have a world that has serious climate conditions. We swung from a flood into a drought and we have
serious issues and we're trying to manage and mobilize domestic resources, working with different actors. If it doesn't work, we tried a different
way.
Kenya is now stable. We are moving into the future in a predictable, orderly manner because we are a democracy.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, how will you do that? Because, clearly, you were advised by, I assume, your own economists and international economists that
you needed to start raising funds. You needed to get some taxes or however you raise your funds in order to pay down the debt and to, I guess, pay for
development.
What is your next step on this issue? How will you do what you need to do without, you know, upsetting the people who can't afford it and trying to
satisfy your own people?
RUTO: It is always a balance. Most of the situation that you saw, part of it was occasioned by misinformation, fake news, and many other aspects of
the protest. More explanation is going into our strategy going into the future. We are working with the International Community to find
concessional funding, long-term at scale, to manage our situation, to manage the debt situation.
As I talked to you, inflation is down from 9 to 4.3 percent. Our exchange rate is now stable. And we can be able to do more going forward without
pushing too hard on what the people can accommodate.
AMANPOUR: And on my last question about women who are in focus all over the world, including in your country. And let me just get this straight
because an Olympic runner was murdered in Kenya by her former partner. And you have one of the highest rates of violence against women in Africa. Lots
and lots of cases.
Why do you think this is still going on in Kenya? Why are women so unsafe and what is the government doing about it?
RUTO: We have gone out of our way to protect women in Kenya. Women have space, women have scope, women have the latitude to be able to discharge
their -- to be able to discharge what they do to be able to go about their business.
And isolated cases like the one of the murdered international athlete must not color what the place of women in Kenya. Women in Kenya are robustly
participating in the governance of our country. We have women governors. We have women members of parliament. We have women politicians. We have women
business people. And they are doing a great job.
And it is my intention, even as we look at reviewing the constitution, to get more women to participate in leadership and governance.
AMANPOUR: OK. All right. Mr. President, William Ruto, thank you for joining us from the United Nations.
And we return now to the Middle Eastern powder keg, which the U.S. and others are desperately trying to stop from becoming a regional war. A key
power player in all of this is Iran, the major backer of both Hezbollah and Hamas, and the country that Israel considers an arch foe in the region.
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But this week in New York, Iran's president sought to present a more moderate face to the world and suggested a resumption of nuclear talks in
an effort to get sanctions relief. Iran's new vice president for strategic affairs, Jafad Zarif, is a familiar face from his time negotiating the 2015
nuclear deal with the United States.
He sat down with me here in New York for a wide-ranging interview on Lebanon, Gaza, that new nuclear deal, and women's rights at home.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MOHAMMAD JAVAD ZARIF, IRANIAN VICE PRESIDENT FOR STRATEGIC AFFAIRS: Iran has exercised restraint when Israel conducted military operations against
Iran, conducted terrorist operations, killing the leader of Hamas, who was attending the inauguration of our president of all things, and we exercised
restraint.
We believe that Hezbollah is capable of defending itself. It has been exercising restraint in not doing so. It is the responsibility of the
International Community to come in before Hezbollah has to take its defense into its own hands, and maybe the situation will get out of hand at that
time.
AMANPOUR: The Israelis have said that this offensive is to separate Hezbollah's support for Hamas. Iran has influence with Hamas as well. Are
you trying to get Hamas to agree to a ceasefire?
ZARIF: Well, I think Hamas has agreed to a ceasefire. It's been Netanyahu and the Israeli governments who have refused all along, even refused the
calls by the United States to engage in ceasefire. Who has been vetoing resolutions in the Security Council calling for ceasefire? Has it been the
supporters of Hamas or the United States supporting Israel?
So, even to claim that somebody needs to push Hamas to accept ceasefire is ridiculous because everybody knows that Netanyahu depends on this war in
order to continue to survive. And Israel has conducted this war with the hope, with the illusion of winning this war, which is impossible.
AMANPOUR: On October 7th last year, Hamas created atrocities by invading Israel proper and killing civilians. And I remember after the 2006
Hezbollah-Israel war, Hassan Nasrallah said that if he knew the result of what would have happened, you know, after he essentially took actions that
created that war, he never would have done it. I mean, Lebanon was devastated. It was terrible.
Do you think that was -- do you support what Hamas did against civilians in Israel, against children, women?
ZARIF: Nobody supports actions against civilians and Hamas certainly has been on the record saying that it does not support such actions.
The history did not start on October 7th. Israeli atrocities in Gaza basically putting a huge number of people in the most populated place on
the face of the earth in an open prison for so long, depriving them of any -- of access to anything, basically, to basic necessities, has been an
ongoing process. Occupation of Palestine has been going on for 70 years. A system of apartheid in Palestine has been going on for many decades. So,
history did not start on October 7th.
And it's not for us to decide whether the price of Palestinians are paying was worth the fight. It's for the Palestinians to decide. And if you look
at the polls in Palestine, Hamas' popularity has increased rather than decreased --
AMANPOUR: It's going down a bit and we're hearing a lot of people in Gaza who are really fed up and who blame them too for bringing this terror on
their heads, this hell.
ZARIF: Well, you see, there is a variety of opinion everywhere, but the polls indicate that the general popularity, both in the West Bank and in
Gaza, has increased. So, these are the realities on the ground. The Palestinians have to decide whether it was worth it or not, but it is for
the International Community to end this vicious circle, which will never be -- which will never have a victor. Israel will never be able to win this
war, period. And Netanyahu has to recognize this and understand this.
AMANPOUR: So, what they say is that we have no option because Iran is the big devil in the region. In other words, supporting all these Iran-backed,
whether it's Hezbollah, whether it's the Houthis, whatever it is, Hamas, all those things. And that even the end of occupation would not stop your
desire to, quote/unquote, "wipe Israel off the state of the map."
ZARIF: Well, you see --
AMANPOUR: Is that still Iran's aim?
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ZARIF: If there is an end to occupation, if the Palestinians are satisfied with their situation, no amount of persuasion by anybody can change the
situation and can push them into fighting. They're fighting for their lives. They're fighting for their freedom. Give them freedom. Give them
back their land. And you will see that this ends.
Now, Iran does not have an extermination policy. Iran's suggestion for the region is to have a referendum. So -- in which the Palestinians, the Jews,
the Christians, whoever lives there, the Muslims and whoever has been uprooted from the land to vote, allow them to determine their destiny.
Now, some people will say, that would mean the pushing the Jews into the sea. Did that happen in South Africa? They were saying exactly the same
thing. You and I have been around for long enough to know that in the 1970s and 1980s, they were saying that if there is a non-racist, non-apartheid
regime in South Africa, all the whites will be thrown into the sea. And the communists will come in and take over the country. Is it what happened in
South Africa? It didn't.
So, the fear-mongering policies of the Zionists are simply there to continue this act of genocide and occupation and oppression.
AMANPOUR: In the meantime, since the Trump administration basically pulled the United States out of the Iran nuclear deal that you and your government
negotiated with then the Obama government, you have gone ahead in leaps and bounds and you could be this close to the ability for nuclear breakout.
Your foreign minister, who was your deputy back then has said this week that he's willing to, and Iran is willing to enter talks again terms of a
nuclear agreement, if other parties, I guess the United States, is willing. Can you elaborate on that?
ZARIF: Well, you see, I think you answered your own question. Trump withdrew from the deal at that time --
AMANPOUR: But Biden tried again.
ZARIF: No, Biden continued Trump's policy. To be absolutely honest with you, I don't like to say it, but the policy of the United States has not
changed since President Biden took office. But the point is, is the United States safer because of your -- because of Trump's withdrawal?
Iran was abiding by the deal based on American intelligence, I don't buy that, but based on American intelligence, Iran was a year away from
breakout. Now, American intelligence says Iran is days away from breakout.
AMANPOUR: Are you?
ZARIF: Who caused this? We don't want to breakout. We do not want to breakout because we do not believe that nuclear weapons are in our security
-- in our interest, and will augment our security. But the question is, if the United States feels more threatened today, what is the cause? Is it us,
or is it Trump's withdrawal? And why did Trump withdraw? Because of Israeli pressure. He has said it himself, Netanyahu has said it in his book, that
his number one priority was to push the United States out of the deal. Is the world safer today than it was in 2015? That is the question that needs
to be answered.
Now, how can we go back to status quo ante? By the United States returning to its obligations under the JCPOA, accepting that it had made a mistake.
And I think what our foreign minister has said is something that is achievable. Provided that we understand that the United States, that the
Trump administration took a very dangerous step, convinced by Israel.
AMANPOUR: And it's possible that the next president could be Donald Trump. So, then all bets are off again. I want to ask you about the intervening
years. You were not in office, but the Iranian regime has supported the Russian regime in terms of occupation, invasion, and the slaughter of
civilians inside Ukraine.
You have provided drones and drone technology. You've provided short-range ballistic missiles. And these are killing ordinary civilians inside Ukraine
and damaging their infrastructure. Why? Why do you want to do that?
ZARIF: Well, we certainly do not support, neither our government nor the previous government in Iran, support the invasion of other people's
territory or the killing of innocent people. What we have said from the very beginning is that there should be one solution to the situation in
Ukraine and that is through negotiations between Russia and Ukraine and also, others who have reneged on their promise not to expand NATO.
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Because I think here, there were promises that were made, and there were broken promises, which led to instability in the region, and a sense of
insecurity. We do not condone the response to those provocations. We do not believe that war is an answer to anything.
AMANPOUR: So, why are you supplying them with weapons they desperately need?
ZARIF: Because in any war everybody will lose. Now, all roads have been closed to Iran in violation of international law, and we need to engage in
business. We need to be able to earn currency.
AMANPOUR: Is that why you're doing it?
ZARIF: The Russians engage with Iran in trade. The United States has closed all possibilities of trade with Iran. We never forget those who help
us in times of difficulty. Now, Europeans have to answer, why did they follow the United States? Why did they close all their businesses in Iran?
Had Iran violated any deals? Why did they do that? Why should we be concerned with the concerns of Europe when they're not concerned with their
own obligations under international law?
So, everybody has to come down from their high heels and walk with us. and see where we are. We've said very clearly that we are willing to negotiate.
We're willing to talk how to end this situation, how to end the crises, various crises that have been created because of the United States'
withdrawal from the JCPOA. Let's go back from the start, see how it started. And see how it can end.
AMANPOUR: The new president, Masoud Pezeshkian, you know, portrayed himself as a reformer. And you call yourself in the reformist camp and you
supported him. What do you think will be different under this new president? And let's just take domestic Iranian affairs. Under President
Raisi, there was a huge uptick in repression against ordinary Iranian civilians and women and the hijabs and the dress. And we saw what happened
almost exactly a couple of years ago to Mahsa Amini.
Your president has said that he will not allow the Morality Police to run roughshod over women and their rights. Is that your -- is that the policy
of this new government?
ZARIF: Well, the policy of this new government is that women have to be treated with respect. The president, the rest of us have been on the record
criticizing what happened a couple of years ago. And we continue to believe that's that -- there are much better ways of treating your population.
Population needs to be treated with respect. Population need to be treated with dignity. And this is how we plan to go ahead. This was the campaign
promise that President Pezeshkian made, I made when I campaigned for him in the past -- I mean, a couple of months ago.
And I think we've taken good steps. I mean, steps in the right direction. We're not there yet. Long way to go. But we now have four women in the in
the cabinet, and I'm very proud of that. We have a Sunni vice president in the cabinet for the first time. These are happening for the first time in
Iranian history, not just after the revolution, four women in the cabinet, we never had four women in the cabinet even before the revolution, at least
as long as I can remember.
So, these are important developments. And I think we need to build on them. We're not there yet.
AMANPOUR: Can they -- can the women at least be -- you know, can the women be reassured that this Morality Police will be taken off the streets and
off their backs?
ZARIF: Well, the president has said that he doesn't agree with this and he will do whatever he can in order to change the situation. And I think he's
on the right track. He is a very honest man. He is a very sincere man. And he -- when he makes promises, he tries to implement them. And we should we
should wait and see. I think we should give him some time.
AMANPOUR: Lastly, Iran and other countries have made a bit of a business of taking hostages. You have had, over the years, many Iranian American
dual nationals imprisoned. And we interviewed Siamak Namazi, who was the longest held Iranian hostage in Iran. And we interviewed him when he was
still in Evin, and now that he's come out.
And he said that, A, he was subjected to unutterable indignities. I guess I just want to start by asking you, is this an acceptable way to treat
ordinary people, Iranians, your people?
ZARIF: Of course not. And I think what Mr. Namazi has said should be the subject of an investigation in Iran. And I think Dr. Pezeshkian would agree
with me that there should be an investigation into what he has said. That's not the policy of our government nor of the previous government.
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: But it is because there's so many over the years have been taken for -- to barter.
ZARIF: No, no, no. You see, there are Iranians who are in prison in the United States and there are both Americans and Iranian Americans who were
in prison in Iran. When I was foreign minister, I did my best in order to expedite their exchange. And in some cases, I was successful, in some
cases, unfortunately, I wasn't, and I regret that.
I had hoped that we could make more progress. And it wasn't just because of Iran, it was because of the United States refusing to go along with the
exchange. But unfortunately, again, Siamak's arrest was after we had made that deal, and it was impossible. I mean, it would have broken all the
deal. I mean, all the deal would have unfoiled had we tried to --
AMANPOUR: Did you think you could get him out in a few weeks, as apparently you told Secretary Kerry?
ZARIF: Yes, that was what I was told. But unfortunately, it didn't go through.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that this policy of taking dual nationals will end?
ZARIF: Well, I hope that nobody will end up in prison either in the United States nor in Iran on charges that can be treated in other ways. So, I
certainly hope. I mean, Iran belongs to all Iranians and Iranians residing in the United States and I hope, and I'm sure Dr. Pezeshkiandoes as well,
to create the conditions that all Iranians, except for those who committed crimes, can come freely to Iran and return safely.
AMANPOUR: You admit that Siamak did not commit a crime?
ZARIF: Well, I'm not in a position to judge that, but I know Siamak and I think he didn't, but that's up to the judge to decide. I mean -- and the
judge has decided otherwise. I regret that, but that's my personal regret because I know him.
AMANPOUR: Dr. Javad Zarif, thank you very much for being with us.
ZARIF: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And now, culture wars and hyper partisanship are overwhelming voters and sowing distrust. Our next guest believes the antidote to this is
found in both faith and science. To explain how, Dr. Francis Collins, former director of the National Institutes of Health, spoke with Walter
Isaacson, discussing his latest book, "The Road to Wisdom."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you. And, Dr. Francis Collins, welcome back to the show.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS, AUTHOR, "THE ROAD TO WISDOM" AND FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH: Great to be with you, Walter.
ISAACSON: You know, you've been worried for quite some time now about the growing hatred, division in our society. And now, we've seen presidential
assassination attempts and you finally decided to write a book about it called "The Road to Wisdom." As a doctor, diagnose it for me. Tell me how
we got here.
DR. COLLINS: It's a pretty serious diagnosis, that's for sure. Yes, we are a very polarized society and there's a lot of vitriol and animosity. And
that has led us in this current circumstance to a place where a whole lot of things that we used to consider absolutely rock solid for our society
are now rather frayed. One of them is, is there such a thing as truth nowadays? Well, my bubble says this is what's true, maybe yours says that's
what's true. Hey, if a fact is a fact, it's true for everybody and it doesn't care how you feel.
We've lost trust in science along the way. Almost as if some people have to be the pro-science, then the other people have to be the anti-science.
Science, again, is about objective facts. It doesn't care how you feel about the answer, it just is what it is. Climate change is real, by the
way. COVID vaccines actually work and saved about 3 million lives. Those are facts. But those kinds of things are harder now for people to agree on.
I'm also a person of faith, and I think faith as a source of a different kind of truth, the transcendental truth, the truth about who we are and
what we're called to do and how we're supposed to love our neighbors. That's gotten frayed as well, and I'm sorry to say oftentimes because
politics has jumped in and overtaken the messages of faith that should have been the dominant ones.
All of this, Walter, kind of leads us to this area where we don't know who to trust anymore.
ISAACSON: You saw this up close when you were heading the National Institutes of Health and we had the worst pandemic in a century hit us. And
you said that it showed something was deeply wrong in American culture. What was that?
DR. COLLINS: Well, I think the vaccines are the most glaring example. Putting together in the space of just 11 months, a remarkable partnership
between private industry, academia, government philanthropy, everybody pitching in who had something to contribute.
[13:40:00]
And in the space of 11 months coming up with vaccines that were not just kind of OK, they were spectacular, 95 percent efficacy with very few
indications of side effect problems. Studying 30,000 people. That is so much better than most people dared to hope. And that should have been a
moment then for us to turn the corner from this terrible pandemic. And of course, it was for millions of people whose lives were saved by the vaccine
across the world. I might have been one of them. I don't know. But for 50 million Americans, there was a suspicion that this wasn't really what it
was claimed to be. And they said, no, thank you.
And this is what broke my heart, Walter. Here we had what I think history will consider to be one of the most significant scientific achievements of
all time, and yet, people influenced by other kinds of misinformation and disinformation are turned away from that. And the estimates are, by Kaiser
Family Foundation, that 234,000 people died unnecessarily. The culture wars leading to actual deaths of individuals, good honorable people, who were in
a circumstance of not being able to figure out who to believe. That's a pretty serious indictment of the problems we have now gotten into with
truth and science and faith and trust all getting out of whack. We've lost those anchors. We need to get them back.
ISAACSON: Not only did people become -- some people become skeptical of the vaccine, it almost revived somewhat vaccine skepticism in general. We
see Robert F. Kennedy Jr., people saying you shouldn't do the MMR vaccines, taking an old discredited paper saying maybe they cause autism.
What mistakes do you think, if any, were made? Maybe vaccine mandates weren't the way to go because it just caused a counterreaction or what
would you do differently?
DR. COLLINS: Yes. Well, first of all, I do think science communication could have been done more effectively than it was, and I'm pointing the
finger at myself here because I was one of those people being called upon very regularly to try to explain what we knew about COVID and what we were
trying to accomplish and what kinds of actions people would need to take to try to protect themselves and their neighbors.
I wish that we had -- every time we put forward one of those recommendations had a little bit more time to say, you know, there's a very
evolving story. We have incomplete data about this virus. What we're going to tell you today is the best we can do, and please don't imagine that any
of these public health people have any particular acts to grind, we're just trying to do what we can to save lives, but it might have to change a week
from now or a month from now because we'll get new data and we'll realize that recommendations we made yesterday are not the ones we should make for
tomorrow. We didn't do enough of that.
And so, when things changed, like, do you not wear a mask? Do you wear a mask? People began to doubt whether the experts were really experts at all.
And we were unable, I think, to get control of the message of what is actually true here. So, that was certainly a lesson to learn.
Did mandates make it worse? First of all, I think mandates, scientifically, were entirely justified. The paper just came out in Scientific Reports that
assessed over 2020 what were the measures that were taken during that terrible year that actually reduced transmission of the virus? And
mandates, looking at all 50 states, some had, some did not, clearly had a beneficial effect. But people didn't like them at all. They sort of added
to this sense that the government is heavy handed, it's taking away your liberties, it's making random decisions that are -- getting in the way of
people being able to have their own choices.
And so, I think it probably did add to more of the resistance and the resentment about public health just at the point where public health might
have helped us save more lives.
ISAACSON: Let me tell you the beginning of a joke. An elitist and a deplorable walk into a bar. You are the elitist, a guy named Wilk Wilkinson
is a self-described deplorable, tongue in cheek. Tell me how that story plays out.
DR. COLLINS: Well, that was a session in front of 700 people in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. It was the annual meeting of the Braver Angels
organization, which I am part of and so is Wilk. Wilk is a guy who runs a trucking company in Minnesota. And he is somebody who felt that the public
health measures in COVID were all wrong for his community.
This was not the middle of New York City. They were not seeing much in the way of cases. And yet, they were also told you got to close down your
business in your schools and you got to stay at home. And a lot of harm was being done, in his view, by these overly restrictive policies.
So, he and I got to know each other pretty well over the last two and a half years as part of the Braver Angels format where you bring together
people who have very different views and you actually make sure they're listening to each other and not just shouting at each other. And I began to
understand a lot about where Wilk is coming from and I think he understood where I was coming from. So, we had this session in front of 700 people
where we basically had a civil disagreement about our perspectives on public health.
[13:45:00]
And yet, at the same time, made it clear that despite all that, we're pretty good friends now. And we are. Maybe we could do more of that. The
idea that you could sit down with somebody who's really in a different place and maybe sounding rather aggressive about it and just listen and try
to figure out, listen to understand, not to plan your snappy response. And then, gradually bit by bit, you begin to have a better grasp of what the
issues were than in your own bubble.
ISAACSON: You say that there's a paradox, you mentioned in your book, which is that scientific research has never shown more potential for
breakthrough discoveries and saving lives than right now. But at the same time, public trust in science has been falling. What is causing that? Is
that part of this political polarization that causes a trust in science to fall?
DR. COLLINS: Yes, I think that's a lot of it. I think the statement about the advances in science being breathtaking is easily defended. And we
already talked about COVID vaccines, which turned out to be a source of distrust, which is really strange because it was such a phenomenal
achievement.
But now, we have vaccines for cancer. And a lot of people are like, well, I don't know about that either, even though they're starting to look really
promising. We're curing sickle cell disease with gene therapy in a way that I never dreamed would happen in my lifetime. We have promising ways now to
attack problems like Alzheimer's disease. And everybody wants to see those advances happen, but there's still this undercurrent of suspicion.
Are the scientists really all atheists? Are they really all on a take? Are they just trying to promote themselves? Can you trust this data? All of the
things that we know about science in terms of the peer review process and the self-correction when things are published that turn out not to be
reliable, those seem to have slipped away from people's memories as much. And now, it's like, well, that's what the scientists say, but let me see
what social media has to say about that.
ISAACSON: You wrote a book many years ago, "The Language of God," which is, in some ways, a precursor to this new book, "The Road to Wisdom." And
in both, you talk about being a person of faith. And in some ways, the narrative is kind of interesting when I read it in this book, because
you're a young scientist in your 20s and you're doing some experiments, and suddenly they don't work. They don't prove your hypothesis, and it hits you
real hard, and you talk to your pastor. Tell me how that led you on a road to faith and a road to science.
DR. COLLINS: So, yes, I did not grow up in a faith tradition of any sort. And I was an atheist when I was a graduate student studying physical
chemistry. The example you talk about was the very first real serious science I tried to do after I had gotten into medicine and was trying to do
molecular biology research, and it was something I care deeply about. It was my first big opportunity to make a discovery.
And it was six months of hard work and I was making a lot of mistakes because I wasn't really familiar with a lot of the techniques. But
ultimately, the day came where the results were going to be clear. I had this in my head. This is going to be a big moment. I've discovered
something that other laboratories are going to want to use, and it was a complete and utter failure. There was no chance of rescuing anything useful
out of this.
And I told my mentor the next day, I'm leaving the program. I must be not destined for this. And he talked me out of sticking around, but I wouldn't
-- I did go and talk to my pastor and said, I'm a person who's trying to put faith and science together, because by then, I had reached that point
of becoming a Christian. But is God basically sending me a message here? Just move on and do something else. And he said, now, wait a minute, let's
look at the figures in the Bible.
By the way, my pastor was a former NASA engineer. So, he knows about all this. Look at all of the heroes of faith who failed over and over again,
from Moses on down through Peter and Paul, did they just give up because they had a bad experiment? No. They learned from it. They figured out
something really that they hadn't appreciated before. That's what you need to do.
OK. I decided to give it another shot. And the next experiment, I was a lot more careful about the design, to be sure I had understood all the ways
that it might go wrong, and that one turned out to have gone much better. And then, here I am. Now, some -- 40 some years later, having had an
amazing experience as a scientist with plenty of failures along the way, but always trying to learn from each one of those.
ISAACSON: It was your evangelical Christian faith community at times that was most resistant to things like vaccines. Why do you think it caught on
in that community? And what do you say to them?
[13:50:00]
DR. COLLINS: Well, that is my community. I'm an evangelical Christian. I think there's a lot of history here going back 150 years of a concern that
maybe certain aspects of science, particularly biological science and geology, are working in a way that's contrary to what literal
interpretations of the Bible, particularly Genesis 1 and 2, might say about the origins.
For somebody like myself who didn't have that particular literal interpretation sold to me early in my life as the only way to look at those
verses, I don't see a conflict at all. I don't think those were intended to be scientific descriptions of the start of the universe. I think science
helps us figure out the how part, but God was telling us the why.
But people carry that concern with them, especially in more conservative Christian churches, that maybe science has an agenda, and maybe it's an
agenda that is not respectful of faith traditions. And so, when scientists come forward with something like a vaccine saying, here, this is good for
you, there is going to be a slightly larger amount of skepticism than in somebody from another community.
And then when that gets whipped up by other political considerations and other kinds of misinformation coming from social media and sometimes from
politicians, it kind of gets a life of its own. And yes, it was white evangelical Christians that were the most uncomfortable accepting the
vaccine and paid, I'm sorry to say, a terrible price in terms of what that meant for people who lost their lives as a result.
ISAACSON: At the end of the book, you talk about how all of us, citizens, you know, ordinary people, should take a pledge and should do some things
to try to reduce the amount of poison in our discourse, to come together a bit more, and to try to figure out where we can agree on what truth or
faith or other things may lead us. Tell me about what you think we should all do right now.
DR. COLLINS: Well, that is what I come down on as the possible solution to this unfortunate situation we find ourselves in. I don't see the
divisiveness and the hyperpolarization and the vitriol and the fear and the anger getting solved by political voices, but I think it can be solved by
us.
If each of us would do a couple of things, first, try to take your own truth temperature and say, have I brought on board things that are actually
not true? And in which case, maybe those need to be discarded. Have a hard look at whether you've been able to discern the difference between facts
and fakes. We all get hit with a lot of those. Sort that out.
And then, second, become one of those that builds a bridge with people of different opinions, like I learned to do with Wilk and Braver Angels. Reach
out to somebody who you know disagrees with you about something where there's a lot of emotion, gun control or immigration and say, I'd really
like to understand where you're coming from because I would -- I have not been able to get beyond the perspectives of the people around me. So, let's
have a glass of wine and you can tell me and I'm going to really listen, your background, where you come from, what you believe, and how you've
arrived at this particular perspective. I want to understand that.
And you might make a friend and you might also find out that your own positions are not as rock solid as you thought they were. And that's how we
bring ourselves back together again. The pledge at the end of the book basically is asking people not just to say that's a nice idea, but to make
a commitment to be part of the solution. If you sign the pledge and you can put your name up on the Braver Angels' website to document that, that's a
reminder that we're all in this together.
And together, we might be able to do, as Margaret Mead, has suggested, make a real change in a culture, because a few committed citizens is what it
takes. In fact, that's all that has ever made a real difference. Let's be part of that. We have a chance here to heal our nation one person at a
time. I think that's the best chance we've got to get back on the road to wisdom.
ISAACSON: Dr. Francis Collins, thank you so much for joining us.
DR. COLLINS: It was great to be with you, Walter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Building those bridges, hearing each other, so important. And finally, Ukraine's president is presenting his victory plan in Washington,
D.C. today. Volodymyr Zelenskyy is looking for all the support he can get before this U.S. election. which could put a Putin friend back in the White
House.
Former President Trump is taking the Kremlin's line again, essentially saying that Ukraine is completely demolished and just needs to give up.
[13:55:00]
But at the U.N., a key member of the NATO alliance, Britain's foreign secretary, David Lammy, shared his cleareyed and deeply personal view of
the Russian threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LAMMY, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: I speak not only as a Briton, as a Londoner, and as a foreign secretary, but I say to the Russian
representative on his phone as I speak, that I stand here also as a black man, whose ancestors were taken in chains from Africa at the barrel of a
gun to be enslaved, whose ancestors rose up and fought in a great rebellion of the enslaved. Imperialism, I know it when I see it, and I will call it
out for what it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Powerful stuff. And that is it for now. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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END
