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Amanpour
Interview with Channel 12 Israel "UVDA" Anchor Ilana Dayan; Interview with Al Jazeera English Correspondent Tareq Abu Azzoum; Interview with "The Message" Author Ta-Nehisi Coates. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 03, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
The latest from the Middle East as the wider war escalates and Israeli bombs pound Beirut, the Lebanese capital. Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ILANA DAYAN, ANCHOR, "UVDA", CHANNEL 12 ISRAEL: I know from the bottom of my soul that we will not be able to heal if these hostages don't come back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- nearly a year since October 7th, I'm joined by one of Israel's most highly respected journalists, Ilana Dayan, where she sees her
country today.
And the suffering in Gaza seems to have fallen out of the headlines. Al Jazeera journalist Tareq Abu Azzoum joins us from there.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TA-NEHISI COATES, AUTHOR, "THE MESSAGE": I believe that what I witnessed was an immoral apartheid regime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- writer Ta-Nehisi Coates talks to Michel Martin about his much-discussed new book, "The Message," which grapples with his visit to
the occupied West Bank.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. The war of threats is escalating between Israel and Iran. Israel's U.N. envoy,
Danny Danon, warning that retaliation for Iran's ballistic missile attack, quote, "will be soon." And Tehran warning of broader bombardment if Israel
responds.
Meantime, Israeli bombs struck Central Beirut for the first time in 18 years, killing at least nine people. The IDF also says it struck
Hezbollah's intelligence headquarters in the south. It too has suffered casualties. In the past two weeks, more than a thousand people in Lebanon
have been killed.
Let's go straight to Beirut, where Jomana Karadsheh is joining us. Jomana, we talked to you last night. Things just seem to be escalating where you
are. And now, for the first time in nearly 20 years, this strike on downtown Beirut.
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Christiane, over the last 24 hours, what we've seen here is what appears to be an
intensification in these strikes. Mostly they've been targeting the southern suburbs of Beirut. In the past few hours, we have heard gunfire
multiple strikes. The only one that the Israeli military has commented on is what you mentioned, they said that they struck an intelligence
headquarters, a Hezbollah intelligence headquarters. Now, Hezbollah says that its media office was hit. No word on casualties yet.
And you know, the southern suburbs has had a heavy presence of Hezbollah. This is where the Israeli military killed the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan
Nasrallah, and other top commanders. But it is also has -- it's one of the most densely populated areas of the country, or at least was. We've seen a
mass exodus from the southern suburbs, but you still have civilians who are there. People who have nowhere to go, who've decided to stay in their
homes. It happened during the day where people sometimes we've seen them returning to get whatever belongings they can grab.
And, you know, perhaps the most worrying development for people here has been what we saw happen nearly 24 hours ago, late last night, was the
strike that you mentioned in the middle of Beirut, in the middle of the night with no prior warning, a strike that hit a building with an office
for a health authority affiliated with Hezbollah, and we understand that at least nine people were killed, seven of them, according to that authority,
are medics.
The fear, the anxiety, Christiane, that that created here is just very hard to put into words, because while these strikes have been focused on the
southern suburbs, now people are feeling that they are expanding beyond that, hitting the heart of Beirut for the first time since that 2006 war.
We were out on the street speaking with people and, you know, you hear them saying that they feel now that nowhere in their country, in their city, is
safe anymore. This fear of the unknown, they describe it, the fear of a repeat, they say, of what they have seen in Gaza.
I mean, I'm speaking to you right now, and we can still hear the Israeli drones buzzing overhead, as do the people of Beirut. And a reminder that a
strike could happen at any time, anywhere.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: And, Jomana, you say that, you know, you've heard the drones, et cetera, and people are trying to flee when they can, but we hear and we
read that the shelters seemed to be overflowing. Can you tell us anything about where civilians are able to get to for safety in shelter?
KARADSHEH: It is such a catastrophic situation, Christiane. I mean, just a few days ago, we saw that mass exodus from the southern suburbs where you
saw thousands of people pouring into the streets of Beirut as the airstrikes really began in that part of the capital, and people had nowhere
to turn.
They went out. They were sleeping in parks, on the sidewalks, the iconic waterfront of Beirut, the Corniche. People were just sitting there,
families with young children. And when we return today, you still have so many people who are out on the street because they have nowhere to turn.
You have mattresses, you have tents now that are set up there. And it's because of the sheer numbers. More than a million people, according to the
government, have been displaced in a matter of days.
And they are trying their best to set up these shelters, turning schools into displacement centers, but they really can't keep up with the numbers,
especially as you're seeing more and more of these evacuation orders.
And, you know, I mean, you look at the numbers we're getting today from UNHCR, 160,000 Syrians and Lebanese citizens cross the border into Syria
because they have nowhere else to go.
AMANPOUR: Jomana Karadsheh, thank you very much for bringing us up to date on that front in this war.
Now, it is hard to remember the world as it was a year ago, just before October 7th, and this current surge of bloodshed and war. It's been, as we
say, almost a year since Hamas brutal attack on Israel that killed around 1,200 people and saw hundreds more taken hostage.
And on the program to talk about the state of the region and Israel today is Ilana Dayan. She is one of Israel's most respected journalists, and we
spoke about what her country has been through and what the future might hold.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Ilana Dayan, welcome back to our program.
ILANA DAYAN, ANCHOR, "UVDA", CHANNEL 12 ISRAEL: Thank you for having me, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: I want to get to your observations about everything you've covered and everything you've experienced in the past year, but first, what
is the feeling amongst Israelis right now as this war extends in Lebanon, and you have Israeli soldiers killed, but also, is everybody waiting for
the next round of the Iran Israel War?
DAYAN: Yes, that's exactly it. It's not like we are on the verge of a regional war, we are in a regional war with Israel and Iran confronting
each other after Iran has launched 180 ballistic missiles on Israel last Tuesday. It's obvious that Iran is entertaining the possibility that Israel
will strike its nuclear sites. Israel, on the other hand, knows that it cannot do it without American backing.
The American administration, the last thing they want now is an all-out war here, four weeks before the elections there. But, you know, that which
nobody wants to happen might still happen. Will Israel -- that's the question now facing Israeli government and the Israeli public, will Israel,
for a change realize the limits of power, seek for a point of exit, and understand that eventually there will have to be a diplomatic arrangement
following the military act?
So, if you're asking what Israel is waiting for, Israel is waiting -- you know, we are waiting to see what Israel will do. But everybody understands
that we're on the verge of a war in which the stakes couldn't have been higher.
AMANPOUR: The question is, does Israel want it? Because clearly, you just said, the military is back, the intelligence is back, all those things that
were essentially demolished, the idea of Israel's prowess in those two key areas on October 7th. What does Israel want?
I mean, Benjamin Netanyahu is riding high, and the rock bottom poll numbers he had after October 7th are increasing, and his majority in the Knesset is
increasing.
DAYAN: What does Israel want? It depends on who you ask, of course. Yes, you're right. Netanyahu is riding high in the polls. He had a great couple
of weeks. And not only because of the military achievements, phenomenal successes, but also because He is politically savvy like no other
politician I know. He was able to normalize Ben-Gurion and consolidate his coalition.
Just last week he was able to have Gideon Sa'ar, his fiercest rival from within Likud, who left Likud a couple of years ago, to join the coalition,
get a seat at the table, and give Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition a lifeline of two more years.
[13:10:00]
But if you ask Israelis, most Israelis think that we have to go to the ballots. Most Israelis think that we have to go for a hostage deal. Most
Israelis would not have voted for this coalition. The thing is that they don't get to decide. The majority in the Knesset gets to decide. But what
it means is that the rift within Israeli society is ever deeper. And if you want a proof for that, in a couple of days we will mark the first-year
anniversary for the catastrophe, the attack of October 7th.
We will have two ceremonies. One is a government run official ceremony, which was prerecorded, without any audience. The other will be in the same
evening, the people's ceremony, produced by the families of the victims of October 7th. The biggest performers in Israel will be there. Thousands --
tens of thousands of Israelis will come to the Central Park of Tel Aviv. And that gives you a sense of the Israeli condition these days.
Many Israelis want this horror to be over. Many Israelis don't trust the government. And still many Israelis know that the wars that we are fighting
these days are as just as a war can be. So, there you have it, it's complicated.
AMANPOUR: It's very definitely complicated, and I want to start, I guess, by playing a piece of video that you aired on your program and it had not
been seen before, and it is on that day, October 7th, and it actually goes to the heart of part of the of the crisis, which is the hostages.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The only cameras working here are those of the terrorists. Short clips and footage that show the neglect of
that day, and the tragedy underway during those hours when the terrorist were operating freely in Be'eri without worry of fear.
During these hours, when no army is there to defend its citizens, most of the muders take place. During these hours, 30 people from Be'eri were
kidnapped. Women and men, elderly and young.
The terrorist record everything, live broadcasting all of it. But out of all the footage we won't show, there is one picture that we are showing
with the family's permission.
This is Kineret Gat. Be'eri's legendary educator. A mother, grandmother, and spouse. In a short time, her son Alon will be kidnapped, her daughter-
in-law, Yarden, her young granddaughter, Gefen, and shortly, her daughter, Carmel.
This footage is seven seconds long. What was Kineret thinking during these moments, and did she know she'd be murdered in one hour?
At this moment of abandonment, she uses the only weapon she has. Kineret Gat looks directly at the terrorist and sticks out her tongue at him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Honestly, it's such a human act of defiance when you can do nothing else. It is actually remarkable that. And it strikes me that this
has been the demand of the Israeli people since October 7th. Above all, to get people back, to get their people back. And it's fallen out of the
headlines now. Nobody's talking about hostages, certainly the government and others.
And I wonder, where are people about this right now? Do they just look at the military successes of the last two weeks or is there still this gaping
hole, this wound?
DAYAN: You know that hostages' families spent a holiday dinner yesterday night in front of the prime minister's residence, demanding that the
hostages come back. And I got to tell you that, of all the reporting I did about this war, the one thing that stuck with me is an official who's part
of the negotiating team, sitting in front of me last spring, he was willing to go on record. He let me record him. And he said, when I understood that
our government is not doing what it can do to bring about a deal, I was devastating -- devastated.
He's a senior and veteran officer. And he told me, I know of hostages who died mentally before they died physically. Carmel Gat, the daughter of
Kineret, that you just showed. Carmel survived 11 months in captivity. And just recently, a month and a half ago, she was found dead along with five
other hostages in a tunnel in Rafah.
[13:15:00]
So, many Israelis -- and I'll speak for myself now, I think this is one stain that will never bleach. If our government lets these hostages stay
there and die there, and, you know, we are -- we know they are being tortured, we know they are starving, we know at least half of these 101
hostages are still alive, and we know that -- to put it delicately, there were chances to strike a deal.
Did Netanyahu mislead everybody, giving the impression that he's negotiating in good faith? Did he change the mandate of the people in
charge of the negotiation time and again? Did he spin the Philadelphi Route, you know, subject when the brass was saying that it's OK to pull out
for the sake of making a deal?
And now, as you said, the focus has shifted to the north. When will we talk about the hostages? And what will happen to our society if they don't come
back? There is a contract between Israelis and their government that somebody will be there to save us if anything happens to us. That's the
defining ethos of the Israeli society.
And I know from the bottom of my soul that we will not be able to heal if these hostages don't come back.
AMANPOUR: I mean, honestly, for me, Ilana, the question is why, given the contract, as you call it, that we all know about. We've seen it in action
in the past over other hostages. And what I don't understand is, you know, you talk about the Rosh Hashanah dinner before Likud activists threw eggs
at and hurled and cursed members of hostage families. And I honestly don't understand that.
Do you understand why this is? Is it because destroying Hamas is so -- or whatever the reason, that there's a tradeoff that makes it worth dismissing
these people who, as you say, Israel holds so sacred in the past?
DAYAN: No, I don't have a better answer than you do. And I know that the vast majority of Israelis in every poll say that the deal is more important
than anything else. The chief of staff said it yesterday night in a dinner, a holiday dinner inside Gaza with the troops. And many Israelis know that
even Israelis who voted for this coalition.
Now, yes, leadership has managed to -- you know, to transform it into a political issue. And I know that for many Israelis this is still not a
political issue. Still, truth has to be told, Sinwar doesn't really want a deal, you know, as much as many Israelis want. He did refuse to many of the
outlines that were on the table. He is now not communicating. He is, you know, unplugged somehow, not communicating.
And so, you know, we can just hope for the better. But I -- you know, I know and I interviewed the people who came back, and we know about this
father who told his daughter before she was released, and he stayed there, just make sure they don't forget me. I just interviewed a couple of weeks
ago an old lady who came back, and she told me she spoke to this person before she was released. He was in a cage, in a tunnel. He begged her that
they take care of him.
And so, we know enough, for us, for Israel, for Israeli leadership to make that a top priority. Hamas can be dealt with later.
AMANPOUR: I want to remind you of something you said to me on my program when I first spoke to you in a couple of weeks after October 7th, about the
Hamas attacks Just listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAYAN: I thought that I know something about our enemies. None of us, Christiane, none of us even imagined this is the kind of enemy that we are
confronting. This is part of trying to reckon what happened to us October 7th. So, much was broken. The fact that we always feel protected was
broken. The sense that we know something about our enemy is broken. The sense of security, national security and personal security was broken. The
sense that our military knows everything, they cannot be blinded.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: We've talked about some of it, but the idea that you never imagined your enemy could do that. And obviously, in the year since, you've
seen the revenge, 41,000 plus Palestinians have been killed, including some 16,000 children. And I wonder whether that visual, that human toll on the
other side is getting through to the Israeli people and what you all think about it now, a year after?
DAYAN: I remember you asked me about that too, and that was immediately after October 7th. And I told you that we are uncovering the monstrous face
of our enemy, the enemy that hides men and ammunition in schools and clinics and mosques.
[13:20:00]
And I know that after October 7th came October 8th, and October the 28th. And this war has taken a terrible toll on civilians and also innocent
civilians in Gaza. And I've been to Rafah a couple of months ago and I've seen the destruction. And I know that we reporters, Israeli media, are not
covering enough.
On the other hand, Christiane, I have to tell you it's tricky. Because I figure that every time I cover October 7th -- or rather, every time I cover
October 8th, the notion of the tragedy in Gaza that you're talking about, I carry October 7th with me. I carry everything I saw, the bodies I saw, the
atrocities I saw, the people I know, the second cousin of mine who was kidnapped at gunpoint, our political correspondent whose family, two
parents and two kids, were executed at gunpoint. The grandmother was murdered with her autistic grandchild.
So, I carry the scars because it's so personally experienced. It is something which we all experience so personally that I have to tell you
that the sense of detachment that you have to have as a reporter is something very difficult to implement. And the one thing that comes to mind
is -- to my mind is the testimony that I read of Dr. David Hasan.
He's a neurosurgeon from Duke University in the U.S. He's of Palestinian origin. He traveled to Gaza, to Khan Younis and Rafah twice during the war.
He treated wounded children whose family was all killed. He saw hardship and pain. And he told the interviewer that he was looking there for Israeli
hostages to treat them as well. He was walking the corridors of the hospital looking for Israeli hostages.
And I think, Christiane, of course, he couldn't find them and of course Hamas didn't let him meet them. And for me that's a kind of an example of
what we Israelis have to seek in ourselves. We have to fight for our lives but we have to fight for our soul and we have to fight for our values, and
our values are values of compassion and care as well. And yes, we I think of the tragedy in Gaza and I think we don't cover it enough. You're right
in that sense.
One thing that I keep thinking about, we might be achieving phenomenal military successes these days. And it seems like, you know, the reality is
changing. And that Iran is losing both its proxies in Lebanon and in Gaza. But the fact that we can make them lose doesn't mean that we are winning,
because they can inflict so much injury and pain and damage.
There were seven Israelis killed in a horrible terror attack in Jaffa the other day. And soldiers are being killed in Lebanon. So, I figure that we
have to find a way to both exercise military might and recognize the limits of military might and try to find the bridge to the future, to doubt our
past, to reckon with our demons, and to try to see a way to build another kind of reality in this tough neighborhood of us.
It's complicated, as we said, but the sheer thought of that possibility helps me breathe with both lungs, sometimes. Not very often.
AMANPOUR: Ilana Dayan, as always, thank you so much.
DAYAN: Thank you very much, Christiane. Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And she is that rare breed of phenomenal journalist with phenomenal humanity as well.
As we mentioned, there are concerns that Israel's hostages are being forgotten and Palestinian suffering in Gaza is being ignored. But while the
attention has shifted to Lebanon and Iran, the war on Gaza is still very intense, killing almost a hundred people in the past 24 hours, adding to
more than 40,000 who have already been killed in the past year, including about 16,000 children, according to the authorities in Gaza.
Tareq Abu Azzoum, a correspondent for Al Jazeera English, join me from Deir al Bala in Central Gaza for the view of the past year from there. Many of
his colleagues at the network have been killed while trying to cover this war.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Tareq Abu Azzoum, welcome to the program. And I just want to note for our viewers that we've just gone from a pretty first world camera
operation in Israel to a wartime under bombardment Skype pretty bad connection, and that's just the reality of what's going on right now.
So, can I ask you to reflect on what -- where were you on October 7th and October 8th when the war then came to you?
[13:25:00]
TAREQ ABU AZZOUM, CORRESPONDENT, AL JAZEERA ENGLISH: Well, Christiane, thanks, first, for having me. When October the 7th really attack took
place, we were in our homes in a very close border town with the Israeli borders. We were living peacefully and sleeping and we walk up on the sound
of bombardments and attacks.
It was a very tough day for everyone in Palestine, simply because the -- that day has turned and changed the lives of millions of Palestinians now
upside down. Clearly, we were forced to leave our homes and houses under really heavy Israeli bombardment. We were forced to move from one
neighborhood to another looking for some sort of safety. We we're forced to leave the north of the Strip after following the Israeli military orders to
no longer remain the north of Gaza because it will be an active military war zone.
And for me, alongside my family members, we have been displaced for over five times since the war began and the situation was catastrophically very
dire. Because, you know, we did not manage to take any sort of our items and ended up in Rafah and later, with the eruption of the ground invasion
of Rafah, we have been forced again to be displaced this Deir al Balah in the central areas.
AMANPOUR: And, Tareq, you're a journalist. Did you immediately leap into action to try to cover what was going on? Because, obviously, we know that
now at least 116 journalists have been killed in this counteroffensive. Some of them are your Al Jazeera colleagues. How -- tell me what it's been
like as a journalist to live through this, because you actually have to get out and face the crisis rather than trying to seek shelter.
AZZOUM: Well, firstly, my first and top priority was how I can move my family to a place that could have some sense of partial safety. Then I just
managed to be absolutely joining the field here in Gaza Strip to follow up every latest development on the ground and how the course of actions are
ongoing in Gaza.
We have been filming and documenting all the security and humanitarian developments across multiple areas in the Strip in the north and central
areas and in the southern part of Gaza. It has been a very tough job since day one because you are operating in a very active military zone that had
been day by day getting much more worse with the very systematic and deliberate destruction of residential homes, key infrastructure, and the
mounting numbers of attacks on journalists who at least must be -- have some sort of special protections according to the international
humanitarian law regulations.
But in Gaza, every day for Palestinian journalists is a question of life or death. Like you leave your house, you're completely unsure if you're going
to return back to your family or not. And this is a proper reflection about the systematic targeting of Palestinian journalists. We're talking about
more than 160 Palestinian journalists were killed since the war began, some of them were killed alongside with the family members and others as they
were practicing their professions on the ground.
Even sometimes when we are moving in areas that could be so much active in terms of the bombardments, people sometimes are so much afraid of our
existence there because they have more growing feeling that the journalists are completely illegal to target for the Israeli military because they have
been targeted, all Palestinian journalists who were trying to cover the Israeli latest crimes in Gaza.
We have, in fact, Christiane, lost recently two of our colleagues in the north of the Gaza Strip in a very deliberate attack on the vehicle as they
were heading to film a report in Al-Shati refugee camp. This is very devastating in fact, and it is a moment that makes everyone look and think
twice about his job. But the resilience and the determination of Palestinian journalists is completely unwavering.
They are working on the ground, especially in light of the Israeli ban of the international journalists to access the Gaza Strip, except in some --
in cases for some media channels who managed to get a partial access to particular parts in Gaza, including Rafah and Beit Lahia in the north. And
they have some sort of controlled trips by the Israeli military. And even their content has been verified by the army before it could be released on
air for their viewers.
AMANPOUR: You know, Tareq, we all owe you a huge debt of gratitude, because as you correctly say, you are the world's eyes and ears on the
ground because internationals are not allowed in. Would you want to have more of us in, or do you feel that you are fully able to tell the story? Do
you think it would make any difference or impact if international journalists were allowed in?
[13:30:00]
AZZOUM: Well, the presence of international journalists is absolutely important in order to enable the viewers around the globe to have more
access and reach what's happening in Gaza. Palestinian journalists, in fact, since day one of the fighting, have been doing their best by all
sorts of their even capabilities on the ground to keep reporting despite all their humanitarian and technical challenges that they have been going
through, represented in communication challenges, lack of safety, lack -- even of humanitarian resources.
International journalists have been only given access to areas where the army exists, but they did not really get closer to Palestinians in
hospitals, Palestinians in evacuation centers, those who are sleeping in open areas, in the corners of the streets who have lost their homes, and
even there are jobless right now. They can have much greater understanding about the reality of this ongoing conflict and how Palestinian people have
been widely impacted from this ongoing work.
So, we believe that the international journalists have a very profound role in raising the awareness of the International Community. But Palestinian
journalists, they have done that job perfectly and bravely, and they are still ongoing with their reporting and coverage, despite all the security
and humanitarian obstacles and challenges encountering them, in fact, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Well, we still try to lobby the government to let us in. But can I just ask you a different question, and whether you've been able to take
the pulse of people there on not just the Israeli offensive, but on Hamas as well. Let me just read a little bit.
Amin Abed, who you probably have heard of, was a long-term critic of Hamas. He was beaten up by masked men in July. I believe he's out now. Pictures of
him in hospital have been made public. And public dissent appears to be growing due to the human toll of this war, growing against Hamas. How
present is Hamas in Gaza right now? Do you see them? Do you feel that they're -- what are they doing? Even if they're not fighters, are they --
is anybody sort of distributing aid or keeping -- whatever, doing any policing work or anything?
AZZOUM: Well, in order to make it much more clear for everyone that who is distributing aid in Gaza, are the NGOs and alongside with the United
Nations Relief and Work Agency for Palestinian refugees. We clearly understand that aids were flowing from both Kerem Shalom and Rafah Crossing
with the Egyptians, but with the beginning of the ground incursion to Rafah, it has been a very big humanitarian flaw for all humanitarian relief
operations being conducted by those humanitarian agencies.
And they have been issued and they report that there has been a massive decrease in the numbers of humanitarian aid convoy to the multiple areas in
this trip, especially in the north of Gaza where people have been completely suffering from high rates of malnutrition and new wave of
starvation also around the corner due to the (INAUDIBLE) and essential food items to enter to that very marginalized part of Gaza.
And in terms of the military presence for Hamas, we cannot really have a very close look on their military activities because they have been engaged
with the Israeli forces in combat and in a very close contact fighting, and we cannot have a proper access to these places. And at the same time, the
Israeli military said that they managed to destroy the vast majority of their military capability, and they are not -- no longer exist as a
military format.
So, generally, what we can see on the ground is a very clear escalation by the Israeli army as the Palestinian civilians have been massively hit in
their homes. The houses that have been hit where it completely packed with civilians. And at the same time, there has been a very massive increase on
attacks, especially on evacuation centers that are run by the United Nations.
Families, in fact, have been told by the army to go to these areas after the destruction of their homes. And after following these orders, they have
been hit by the Israeli military. So, there has been a very growing sense among Palestinians that Gaza is no longer very safe place. And
specifically, that is the reality.
Palestinians are, in fact, have been stuck in the middle as conflict between Hamas and Israel is still raging day by day. But Israel has said
previously that they managed to militarily dismantle lots of their brigades, but we can see that the fighting is still ongoing in raging areas
that have been previously announced to be militarily dismantled and cleared.
[13:35:00]
So, this is a very even confusion of the Israeli military statements. And Palestinians now, their main concentration is how they can survive. They
are moving to lots of areas, between lots of areas, and now, they are trapped in a very tiny strip of land called Al Mawasi, just a few
kilometers away from where I am right now.
And despite this horrific humanitarian conditions that they are experiencing in Al Mawasi, they have been killed and bombarded in that area
without any sort of warning. We can remember the latest attack on Al Mawasi that killed at least 100 Palestinians. And by the way, Christiane,
yesterday, Gaza's health ministry announced that at least 99 Palestinians were killed in Israeli attacks across Khan Younis, the central area, and
another part of Gaza.
Recently, one of the orphanage (ph) and institutions in Gaza have been bombed. So, we are really experiencing a very turbulent reality that could
not be really stable. It has been a year of massive confrontations, systematic destruction of the healthcare system alongside with all areas
that Palestinians can find it as a refuge.
By the way, if international journalists can get closer to where people can live, they will discover more horrific and very blistering reality about
how those people are struggling to afford themselves with water, with food. I'm talking about few access to water because, you know, the vast majority
of water resources in Gaza have been contaminated due to the destruction of the civil infrastructure.
Until now, also, we have been talking to humanitarian organizations and they are -- they have expressed the inability to freely work on the ground
because of the Israeli restrictions and the very untenable security condition on the ground.
AMANPOUR: Tareq Abu Azzoum, thank you so much for being with us.
AZZOUM: Thank you. Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Al Jazeera has come under further intense criticism and legal pressure from the Israeli government, which has now banned the network from
operating inside Israel, and its offices in the occupied West Bank have been broken into and welded shut by Israeli troops.
Now, our next guest says that he must confront the truth no matter how difficult. The award-winning journalist, Ta-Nehisi Coates, is doing exactly
that in his new book, "The Message," in which he journeys to Senegal, Israel, and the occupied West Bank. And he's joining Michel Martin to
discuss what he found.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Ta-Nehisi Coates, thank you so much for joining us.
TA-NEHISI COATES, AUTHOR, "THE MESSAGE": Thanks for having me, Michel.
MARTIN: I'm sure a lot of people know your previous work, especially "Between the World and Me." But in this new book, you go to three different
places. You write about your trips to three different places, to Senegal, to South Carolina, and to Israel, and to the Palestinian territories.
You've already gotten a lot of attention for this book. Some of it quite heated, it has to be said.
But I want to start where you start in the book, which is Senegal. I mean, this is your first trip there. You describe these feelings of real disquiet
while you were there, sort of fear, just sadness, and a kind of a heaviness. Can you just describe why or what it is that you were feeling?
And why you think you were feeling that?
COATES: You know, I'm of the generation of children born in, I guess, the '70s, or maybe it started in the late '60s, where it became popular to give
your kids African names and to really, you know, raise children with, you know, different views and different notions of Africa and different ideas
of Africa. And that effort really was to overcome a very racist telling and stories of what Africa was and thus, to justify the treatment of African
Americans, and that in turn was counted with different versions of history. Some of them themselves quite mythical.
But here I was confronted with the real thing. No more stories. No more narratives. This is it, buddy This is actually what it is, you know. And I
was going to be crafting stories on my own to say nothing of the fact, which I actually think I took for granted, that this really was, you know,
in some profound way, as cliche as it is, you know, the motherland, like that was really where I was going. And so, I just -- I was terribly
affected and maybe I was not totally prepared to be affected.
MARTIN: Can I throw something out? Were you afraid that you would be disappointed?
COATES: Disappointed? No, because of the age I went. Because of the age I went. And I understand why a lot of people are afraid by that. But
actually, as I'm reflecting on your question, maybe I was.
One of the things I talk about is -- lurking in the back of my mind was, you know, what if all of those racist narratives were actually true? You
know, that's terrible to admit, you know. But certainly, that was in the back of my mind is something that was haunting me.
You know, I didn't expect to be, you know, welcomed with drums and, you know, welcome home, brother.
MARTIN: Brother. Yes.
[13:40:00]
COATES: No, no. I didn't expect any of that. That wasn't what I was looking for. But like I said, it was terrible to admit, perhaps I feared
that I would not find a city in Dakar of human beings.
MARTIN: That is a hard thing to admit. So, what do you think you found there that you -- that is important to the overall narrative that you're
sharing in this book?
COATES: You know, the first essay -- and I guess we'll talk about this in a minute, and the last essay are kind of in conversation with each other.
When you've had a horrific, violent event happen to you, such that it really, you know, breaks lineage and breaks time. How do you reconstruct
yourself? How do you reconstruct yourself in a way that is truthful, reflects your ethics, tell the stories that you really feel like embody
your sense of justice?
I think there is great temptation. When you suffer through an experience like we have and the humiliation that comes with it to go completely in the
other direction, you know, and maybe in -- you know, ignore some of the reality that actually makes you a human being.
Senegal, Dakar was really my opportunity to confront some of those stories and some of those ideas that actually I was raised on myself, that embodied
in my very name, actually.
MARTIN: In story, I guess, as you were -- as you would say, in story, they were embodied in story and that story kind of infiltrated you in ways that
you perhaps were not really aware of. So, then, May of 2023, you visited Israel and the Palestinian territories.
So, in the book, you draw parallels between Jim Crow America and the Israeli occupation of these territories. You called it separate and
unequal, alive and well. You say it's a place where the glare of racism burned more intensely than anywhere else in your life that you had ever
seen. So, tell us a little bit about why you say that.
COATES: You know, there are two sides to me, one is a part of me that, you know, does not like, you know, mixing it up and, you know, fighting with
people. There's also a part of me that says, there is something dishonorable and actually unloving about witnessing certain things that you
think are important and not saying anything about them.
The fact of the matter is I went to the old city of Jerusalem on two different times. The first time I went in the way that typically
Palestinian Muslims go and we were held for about 45 minutes by armed guards before they, you know, gave us entrance. There was no reason --
MARTIN: You went to Al-Aqsa, the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
COATES: Al-Aqsa Mosque. And you know, no reasoning was given or anything like that. They just held us just because they could. And then when I came
back in the way that an American tourist might come, or a Christian typically might come, it was so easy. I just breezed through. It was the
easiest thing in the world.
And this, you know, control of time and space extended out into the West Bank, where, you know, there are roads for Palestinians and then there are
roads for Israeli settlers, which immediately set off my -- you got two different roads for two different classes of people. So, that immediately
sets off alarm bells for me.
You know, you're seeing in the territory and you can see one place where settlements are and where settlers live and they're marked in a certain
way. And then, you can see other areas where they're Palestinian villages and Hamlet's and where they live. And you can see that these are completely
separate.
You go to the old city of Hebron, as I've talked about, and their streets where I am allowed to walk down, if it is made clear to the guards that my
mother was a Christian, that I am a Christian and my grandmother was a Christiane, but my Palestinian guys do not have access to. That's just in
brief of what I saw. So much more, but that sets off certain things for me.
And then, I came back and had to do the reading and the research on top of that to understand the governance and the structures that are beneath that,
that make that possible and, in some ways, mandate that. And I was left with the conclusion. And in fact, what I was witnessing was separate and
unequal, that it was, you know, the closest that I would see in my time to the Jim Crow that my parents were born into.
MARTIN: So, is there a point at which you said to yourself, I cannot only just see this, I have to write about it and accept whatever comes with my
writing about it in this way? Was there like a pivotal moment or was that always the plan?
COATES: That was always the plan, but I knew by saying, I'm going to -- like, I just know, this is going to be hard. This is going to be rough.
MARTIN: And what's -- say more about what's hard. What is hard?
COATES: I don't like hurting people's feelings, man. I just -- and that sounds, I'm kind of laughing, but it's actually true. I don't like -- I
don't enjoy telling people things, telling people unpleasant things. And it -- to be really, I guess, direct with you, there are people who I have had
in my life who I care about, some of whom have been colleagues of mine, you know, I've spent very intimate time around, whose feelings this will hurt.
Have very, very different view of the State of Israel than I do have ties to it.
[13:45:00]
You know, I believe that what I witnessed was an immoral apartheid regime. That -- those are my conclusions. That's what I say in the book. I don't
take saying that lightly. I would rather not feel like I have to say it, but I did based on what I witnessed and what I read afterwards.
MARTIN: So, your core conclusions are, it's an apartheid regime, the life there for Palestinians is unbearable, it's unbearable, it's demeaning, it's
dehumanizing, and it's morally unjustifiable. Is that -- would that be --
COATES: That would be correct. That would be correct. And I just -- you know, I want to add two things to that. The first thing is, this -- I know
this word apartheid, you know, is harsh. It's one that --
MARTIN: It's fraught.
COATES: Yes, it attracts a lot of debate. I don't want people to think that I'm just throwing, you know, that around casually. It was not just
what I observed, it was reading the reports of Amnesty International, where they made the case for apartheid. It was reading the reports of the human
rights, the Israeli human rights group, B'Tselem, where they made the case for apartheid. It was reading Human Rights Watch and their reports. It was
reading the reports of Al-Haq. It was actually doing that. It was actually reading the words and the quotes of people like Former Prime Minister Ehud
Barak or Ehud Olmert, and them warning that Israel was, in fact, tipping into apartheid. That is really what it was rooted in.
So, I know that is a heavy word for a lot of people, but I don't want them to think that I'm just sort of casually, you know, lobbying grenades for
the heck of it.
MARTIN: So, let me go into just some of the criticism of the work already. The book is just out, but a lot of people have already read it. Some of the
criticism is you went for 10 days. You went for 10 days. This is a nation state that has existed in its current form for 75 years at this point. But
this is -- these are people who have indigenous claims to this land for centuries.
You have to -- not just the Palestinians have indigenous claims to this land, but also the Hebrew people, the Jewish people have indigenous claims
to this land, and these borders have moved back and forth for centuries. This is one of the things people often criticize journalists for. They say,
well, you go someplace for 1- days, and then you're entitled to tell the world about it. So, what do you say to that?
COATES: What I say to that is that there are things that we hold at our moral core that we witness that context, 600-word books, reports, even more
time won't make OK.
There's nothing that I can imagine that I will see that will make it OK that one group of people lives in a settlement and another group of people
lives in a village. And there is perhaps a half a mile between those two- group of people, and one group has direct access to water and the other does not. There's very little that I'm going that I can imagine seeing --
there's nothing that I can imagine seeing that allows for a society in which there are tiers of citizenship, and at the top tier of that is a
group of people, be they Jewish or whoever, but in this case, because it's Israel.
Be they Jewish, you have the top tier of citizenship and everyone else is something less. There's not something that I would have seen in 30 more
days. And I will add that even that criticism is familiar to me. Because, in fact, during the civil rights movement, what white southerners would
often say is, you white northerners who come down here and start stirring up trouble, you don't know the Negro like we do. You haven't been down
here. You don't live down here. You don't really know what it is.
MARTIN: You don't understand the situation.
COATES: You don't understand the situation. But if you ask the black folks there, they would tell you, you understand it perfectly, you know. And so,
I just -- you know, I get it. I get that. You know, I would like to know more, like to do more, but I can't help but feel that if I had a different
political perspective on this, the very people who are criticizing might just, you know, only going there for 10 days would think 10 days were
actually quite enough.
MARTIN: The other criticism is you did not include in the book people who defend the government. In fact, you criticize the idea of what we call --
what we have started to call both siding the issue, especially in journalism. But I still want to ask you about your unwillingness to
include, for purposes of this report, other views because, you know, we are constantly being instructed, especially in this very polarized time that
that's fundamental to empathy. And if we don't at least engage in that practice, that we're not being true to that fundamental value of trying to
see other people as human. So, how do you answer that?
[13:50:00]
COATES: The first thing I would say is the pro-Israel point of view, the Zionist point of view, those who view the Zionist project as a good thing,
as a moral thing, as a just thing, they are not unrepresented in the vehicles of American media in our newspapers, in our magazines, in our
television shows. That viewpoint is not unrepresented.
On the contrary, it's one that I was very much exposed to. And what the purpose of that last essay really is, is I am someone who went somewhere
and saw something and came back struggling with how it could be that what I saw was so different than what -- than the story that I was consuming in my
media on a regular basis. And I really wanted to understand why.
And I thought that the way to do that, my tool for doing that was to privilege the words of those who I believe have been, you know, unjustly
pushed out of the frame, and that is, you know, the Palestinians. My feeling is that many of the publications that were large, that criticism,
would do well to look at their own bylines and count how many Palestinians they've published over the past 10 or 15 years.
And so, it is quite rich to me that I am being criticized or that I would be criticized for not talking to people who would defend what I believe to
be an unjust order, you know, in publications that I think are actually part of how that order maintains itself.
When you don't allow people to speak, when you don't allow them a place, not just in your individual work, but in the entirety of the conversation,
it becomes a lot easier to do things to them.
MARTIN: You know, I'm wondering if though, you -- is the fundamental problem here that one faith group is privileged over other faith groups or
is the -- because that is not unique to Israel. Israel is not the only country that privileges one faith group over another faith group. Is the
fundamental problem here that Israel is seen as different, that Israel sees itself as different?
COATES: I just want to make sure I'm not excluding a very important group of people, and that's Palestinian Christians who I -- you know, I
interviewed some of them and felt as discriminated against as anybody else. There's an, you know, incident I described happening in Hebron where I'm
asked my religion. But you know, it was very interesting about that, I was also asked my mother's and my grandmother's religion. And when you start
asking that, you are asking something besides, do I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior? There's something deeper going on.
You know, there was great evil in this world. You know, and I am wary of singling, you know, Israel out as somehow singular or more evil or
whatever. But the point I would make is that I am responsible as an American, and particularly, as a citizen of a country that takes somebody
like Martin Luther King as its patron saint, that walks around talking about, you know, with great pride about the triumphs of the civil rights
movement and equality.
How can I then go to a country where we boast about our special relationship with and see a two-tiered society literally with citizenship
is decided by ethnicity, religion and rights are decided by ethnicity and religion, and then just say, you know what, there's a lot of other evil in
the world too? And turn my back. I just don't have that in me to do that.
MARTIN: Before I let you go, and I've been struggling to find this passage, but it's -- this is when you were walking at Yad Vashem, which is
the memorial to the victims of the Holocaust. You say that, it hurts to know that in my own writing I have done to people that which, in this
writing, I have invaded against, that I have reduced people, diminished people, erased people. I want to tell you that I was wrong. I want to tell
you that your oppression will not save you, that being a victim will not enlighten you, that it can just as easily deceive you. I learned that here.
In Haifa. In Ramallah. And especially here at Yad Vashem. So, this is another story about writing, about power, about settling accounts, a story,
not of redemption.
Who are you talking to?
COATES: Myself. But I was talking to my students. I think that your imagination has to be slightly ahead and maybe even more ahead than the
present politics. And I think there is great, great danger in thinking that because you lack power in a particular moment, you don't have the ability
to hurt and damage other people.
I am not in that case making a narrow critique of Israel or of Zionism. This is, I think, a very, very human impulse. To think that because you
went through some horrific experience, you therefore have a kind of moral authority and are therefore, then not capable of inflicting horrors on
other people.
[13:55:00]
And as much as I feel like I saw that, you know, what I mean, in my travels over there, you're -- I mean, I was talking to us too. I was very much
talking to us, too. And I think that was like really important for me to say.
MARTIN: Ta-Nehisi Coates, thank you for speaking with us.
COATES: Thank you, Michel. Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: There's so much to think about and so much that has happened over this past year. And I just wanted to end tonight with a quote that the
former Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, told me on this program last night. This is what it is. There's an old Roman saying, he told us, that if
you don't know which port you want to reach, no wind will take you there.
And that's exactly what he thinks is happening today. And that's what he thinks is the tragedy. There is no political settlement that he can see
that this military action can build on. And that is what everybody is trying to search for right now.
That's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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END
