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Amanpour
Interview with The Atlantic Staff Writer and "The Last Politician" Author Franklin Foer; Interview with Governor Mike DeWine (R-OH). Aired 1- 2p ET
Aired October 11, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Israel attacks a residential neighborhood in Beirut. The deadliest strikes there since 2006. Correspondent Ben Wedeman reports from Lebanon.
Then, 369 days of failure. Atlantic staff writer Franklin Foer dissects America's feckless Middle East policy.
And as Israel's bombs rained down on Beirut, Correspondent Jomana Karadsheh reports on migrant families there with nowhere to go.
Also --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): You know, I had to defend Springfield. I had to defend my state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- confronting dangerous lies from the Republican presidential ticket. Walter Isaacson speaks with Ohio's Republican Governor Mike DeWine.
Hello. Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
At least 22 people were killed in an overnight attack on Central Beirut. Israel's airstrike flattened a residential building in a densely populated
neighborhood, where people from the Hezbollah stronghold in the southern suburbs fled, hoping to find a safe haven.
Now, Lebanon's U.N. envoy accuses Israel of using Gaza tactics in his country. Hezbollah claims that a senior official named Wafiq Safa, seen
here on the right, was the target of Israel's attack, and says Safa survived the strike.
More than 2,000 people have been killed in Lebanon in the past year, according to the health ministry there. Over 42,000 Palestinians in Gaza
were killed in that same period.
Meanwhile, Israel faces more international condemnation after the U.N. reported four peacekeepers were injured in multiple attacks in Southern
Lebanon. The Israeli military responded in a social media post saying the troops were responding to an immediate attack and threat, and claiming
Hezbollah operates near U.N. posts, quote, "endangering U.N. personnel."
Correspondent Ben Wedeman is in Beirut and joins us now with the very latest. First to this massive strike, the largest in a number of years,
Ben. Tell us the aftermath and what you're seeing around you.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, just to put it in perspective, Bianna, it's the largest strike in Beirut proper. What
we've seen over the last few weeks in the southern suburbs of Beirut behind me are many, many larger strikes.
Now, it's important to stress that to call the southern suburbs of Beirut a stronghold of Hezbollah is not quite correct because it is home to hundreds
of thousands of people who are just going about their daily lives who have absolutely nothing to do with Hezbollah. As far as what's going on around
us, it's a relatively quiet evening in Beirut, but that was not the case last night where there were these two strikes on the heart of Beirut.
One of them was an eight-story building. A missile took out the third floor. Excuse me. That appeared to be a very targeted strike. But the other
one, as you mentioned, was a four-story residential building that simply collapsed upon its inhabitants, its residents. Many of whom, we learned
from eyewitnesses and neighbors, had fled other parts of Beirut, other parts of Lebanon, thinking that that area of Beirut would be safe. Well,
clearly, it wasn't.
Now, as the Israeli media was saying that as well as Hezbollah, oddly enough, were saying that the target was Wafiq Safa, the -- essentially
Hezbollah's diplomat, was the target. However, Hezbollah says that he survived that strike. Now, that's the situation here in Beirut.
In the south, we continue to see intense fighting along the border between Hezbollah fighters and Israeli troops inside Lebanese soil particularly
where we were, in Tyre, we could see, just across the bay, smoke rising from the area around the headquarters of UNIFIL, the United Nations Interim
Force for Lebanon.
[13:05:00]
That headquarters also been -- there was Israeli fire very close to their - - in one of the U.N. observation points, one of their towers was struck, that injured two Indonesian peacekeepers. In fact, I spoke to some of those
Indonesian peacekeepers the other day, and they had told me that they had - - until that point, have been relatively lucky and had not been caught in the crossfire in the south.
So, it's a very dangerous and volatile situation. Much of the south has not been emptied of its inhabitants, but many, probably the vast majority of
the people have left because of these multiple evacuation orders being issued by the Israeli military in addition to the very intense and
widespread Israeli bombing of that part of the country. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, the IDF reporting that 180 projectiles were fired from Lebanon into Israel today alone. Can you tell us more, Ben, about your time
in Tyre, specifically in speaking with residents there?
WEDEMAN: Yes, they -- I think the people who stayed there, many of them are elderly who simply are tired of having to leave their homes as they
have in the past. One woman had very vivid memories of 1982, during the Israeli invasion back then, when she was in a house that was struck by an
Israeli bomb, and she was caught under the rubble.
They have very vivid memories of what has happened in the past, and there is a deep dread of what could happen again. There doesn't seem to be any
foot on the brakes, so to speak, in terms of an effective, real, diplomatic effort to bring about a ceasefire. We hear words from U.S. diplomats, but
the U.S. position on trying to work out some sort of halt to the fighting has -- I can only describe it as it's been flaccid. It just has not been
the kind of vigorous diplomatic effort.
I recall back in 1982, conducted by the United States during the siege of West Beirut during 2006. That war lasted 34 days. This war, the big war
that began in Gaza is now over a year old, and many people just look to the United States and wonder what are they doing? Why aren't they doing
anything? And that you hear that repeatedly in the south of Lebanon, where people are really in the firing line.
It's not like Beirut where there are certain parts of the city where you know you're pretty safe. You're not going to be hit. Down there, any --
they've -- the Israelis have put out warnings, anybody seen driving south of the Awali River, which is about 60 kilometers north of the Israeli
border, could be a target for their drones.
And in fact, when you drive on that highway from the south, there are cars by the side of the road that have been struck and many -- much of Tyre you
see is there's broken glass everywhere, rubble in the streets, many of the neighborhoods utterly abandoned because of, as I said, the bombing in the
area and the repeated orders for people to leave. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And then, the U.S. has been unsuccessful in trying to find any sort of diplomatic solution, going back to October 8th, in this case when
Hezbollah began launching missiles into Israel. Ben Wedeman, thank you so much. Perfect segue to our next conversation.
As the war in Lebanon continues to escalate, Israel security council met to debate its response to Iran's missile attack. Sources say there's still no
final decision. The White House is watching closely as President Biden urges Israel's response to be proportional.
Franklin Foer, staff writer at The Atlantic Magazine, takes a detailed look at the Biden administration's efforts to influence Israel. More than a year
after the October 7th attack, there are still hostages in Gaza. The brutal fighting there continues. And the Middle East seems to be on the cusp of
regional war. Foer calls it an anatomy of failure in his new article for the magazine titled "The War That Would Not End." And he joins me now from
Washington.
Really detailed, fascinating and tragic read Franklin. Good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. And you begin this piece on October 6th,
where the Biden administration was on the precipice of what it viewed. They were able to just, you know, perhaps months away, achieve that all of their
predecessors could not, and that is the Saudi Arabia normalizing a deal, diplomatic relations with Israel in exchange for a Palestinian State. And
the sweetener here would be Saudi and Arabia, United States entering a mutual defense agreement.
One year on, is it your view at this point that it was this deal that was the impetus for Hamas launching its attack the very next day?
[13:10:00]
FRANKLIN FOER, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC AND AUTHOR, "THE LAST POLITICIAN": It was probably one of the causes of -- that entered into
Hamas' calculation. The other thing is that Israeli society was completely divided because Benjamin Netanyahu had pushed forward constitutional
reforms and there were there were marches in the street, here was talk that the reservists wouldn't be -- wouldn't show up for duty because they were
so upset with the constitutional reforms that were being propelled.
So, Sinwar, Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas in Gaza saw this moment of both weakness and moment where he was potentially getting hemmed in by this
normalization deal.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And we know now that to mastermind a deal -- an attack the way they did in such a large scale with the detail and the tunnel systems
alone in Gaza would have taken years to put together.
You write in the piece, the October 7th attack had sapped Netanyahu of self-confidence. It had taken him more than a week to meet with hostages'
families. He was avoiding the public, which blamed him for the security failure, and it was after Biden arrived in Tel Aviv. He wasn't just bucking
up the prime minister, he was, in effect, executing the parts of the job that Netanyahu couldn't manage in his stunned detachment.
But as you go on to write, as we saw the old Netanyahu resurfaced very quickly. And despite the warm bear hug, the tight bear hug between
President Biden and Netanyahu have a history that goes back for many years, as complex as it is, even in those early days after October 7th, the U.S.
was showcasing its support for Israel, but very early on, also hinting at its lack of trust in its prime minister.
FOER: That's right. So, on the trip that you described, Biden goes into the Israeli war cabinet to talk about planning the coming campaign in Gaza.
So, in effect, it's at least is in a matter of optics. He is descending. He's taking some form of ownership over this war, which would continue --
that owner -- that sense of ownership would continue to haunt him until the present.
But at the same time, at the earliest days of this war, the administration had this clear sense of everything that could go wrong. They could see that
Israel was about -- didn't really have a plan for invading Gaza sitting on the shelf. They were improvising their military plans on the fly, as they
were traumatized as they were experiencing this incredible sense of anger and shame. And they were entering into territory that was incredibly
familiar to the United States.
The United States had fought in Iraq and Afghanistan against ISIS in dense urban theaters where they were fighting against opponents who would hide
among civilians. They could see the ways in which this would extract a tremendous toll on the people of Gaza and also pose real risks for the
Israelis, that they would become overextended or that they might end up losing a campaign that everybody expected them to win.
GOLODRYGA: And sure enough, five months in, you write that Biden felt hoodwinked. Can you explain how?
FOER: So, at the very beginning of the war, the sense that the Israelis projected to the Americans was that everything would have been wrapped up
by last Christmas. And the war just kept extending on. And Biden kept asking for certain things from the Israelis, and in some extent, they said,
OK, we could deliver these things for you, but they often never delivered what Biden was asking for. And the campaign just extended on.
And what I was describing in that moment was the Israelis, at the beginning of this last year, said that they were going to take their campaign into
Rafah, which was not part of their initial battle plans. And perhaps it should have been because those were where the smuggling tunnels that were
resupplying them were and they hadn't addressed them then, and they decided to address them later. And Biden just said, look, this thing just keeps
expanding, and it's expanding beyond what you promised me.
GOLODRYGA: You know, what's interesting in a conversation that you had with journalist Ezra Klein on his podcast was the conversation you had
about counterfactuals and what would have happened if the U.S. really did publicly -- not only just admonish Israel for how it was conducting the
war, but also withhold necessary weapons.
Would Israel change course? Would the war planning and strategy change? Would we be in a different position right now. Of course, we will never
know. But I'm wondering how much you've thought about that and the fact that it could have also had the reverse effect, that Israel could have
still kept the course, gone on its own, as the prime minister has said, that he will do this with or without western support and perhaps his own
popularity internally would have gone up?
[13:15:00]
FOER: There's that, and I think that Israel is fighting in its national interest. So, whatever the United States does is not simply going to
dictate policy. There's no switch that can be flipped. And it exists in this much larger context. The United States does not want Iranian proxies
to take advantage of Israeli weakness and attack it.
And so, from the very beginning of the war, the U.S. and the Israelis tried their best to submerge whatever differences of opinions that they had
because they were afraid that Iran and Hezbollah and the Houthis would exploit any sense of weakness.
GOLODRYGA: Can I raise another counterfactual, and that is what this war would have looked like with a different Israeli government had October 7th
happened? From everyone I've spoken with, despite the fact that the U.S. and President Biden kept on reiterating, learn from our mistakes. You
should actually wage a counterterrorism campaign instead of going all in into Gaza, the majority of people I've spoken with, and many of them who
are not supporters of Netanyahu, say, for the most part, at least up until the last few months when the question over his prioritizing the hostages
came to the floor, this war would have been conducted rather similarly to how it had been.
And I'm wondering if we've oversimplified one man and how controversial and polarizing Prime Minister Netanyahu is in exchange for how many Israelis
likely would have forecast this war going on.
FOER: I'm sure that there is some extent to which the split between Netanyahu and the rest of the Israeli polity has been exaggerated. But just
to point you in the direction of two specific things. The first is, is that there was all this pressure to do a hostage deal. A hostage deal was
extremely popular. And of course, that would have required a ceasefire as part of it. I think that there were other political leaders who were much
more likely to cut that deal than Netanyahu (INAUDIBLE) to be.
And then, the second thing is that one of the most irksome things about Netanyahu's leadership during this war, as far as the Americans and the
Arab allies are concerned, is his abject refusal to talk about a day after.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
FOER: And so, part of the reason that the war drags on is that there is no vision for what could come on the day after it ends. And that's, I think, a
huge failure that rests on his shoulders.
GOLODRYGA: Or how attainable his complete victory line really is at this point, one year in Israel's longest war. You mentioned, the hostages. 101
remain in Gaza. At least half at this point are believed to still be alive. And given that this war has only expanded beyond just Gaza now into Lebanon
and we're anticipating a strike, a response to Iran striking Israel imminently, there's a lot of concern, especially among the hostage
families, but even those in governments around the world that these hostages are being forgotten.
And Rachel Goldberg-Polin, the mother of Hersh Goldberg-Polin, gave an interview where she talked about her son, how he was found dead, bullet
ridden with other hostages, the six other -- the five other hostages. They were emaciated. Despite being nearly six ft tall, he weighed 53 kilograms
when he was buried. And here's what she said in describing her disappointment and frustration with leadership, who she says failed her
son, and thus, she didn't want them necessarily at his funeral.
She said, I would challenge those people who wanted to come to us after they chose not to save the six hostages, you have 101 chances now. Do it.
Throughout the year, we have reported in great detail as to how much of a priority this was to the Biden administration and President Biden. You talk
about Jake Sullivan in particular as it relates to Hersch Goldberg-Polin. Can you just walk us through the impact of the hostages themselves and the
news of the murder of these six hostages just a few weeks ago?
FOER: So, I think that the administration, I'm talking about Jake Sullivan in particular, I saw this when I traveled to the Middle East with Tony
Blinken, that he would meet with hostage families and they would chant that they were -- just that they were relying on Blinken and Biden to listen to
them because they felt like they were the only two people in the world who had their back. They didn't feel like their own government had their back.
And the thing that just, I think, tears at me and should tear at us all is that in last August on -- there was this moment where Biden was able to
bring Netanyahu along to a place where he seemed ready to deal with Hamas. Hamas which is also a major, major obstacle constantly to a hostage deal
seemed like they were ready to deal. And then, the hostages were murdered. And the murder of those hostages just seemed to set everything, very
understandably, off course.
[13:20:00]
And when I talk to administration officials now, it feels as if there is no hope for a deal between now and the election. And so, all -- everything
that Rachel says is true, and that opportunity may or may not be there, but there's no sense of urgency on their behalf.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, following the news of the murder of the six hostages, especially Hersh Goldberg, you write that Jake Sullivan said, I failed. He
thought to himself, I've objectively failed.
In the final moments that we have together, let me ask you about the next phase of this war and the concerns that that the U.S. administration may
have about what a larger war between Israel and Iran may look like and the U.S.'s role in that, especially given that the takeaway from your piece is
that America's leverage over Israel is vastly overstated.
FOER: Yes. So, I think one thing that's happening in Lebanon right now is that at the very beginning of the risk of a possible escalation there, the
United States pushed hard for a ceasefire, and one of the reasons that they pushed hard for a ceasefire is that they had a very dim expectation of what
Israel could achieve in a battle against Hezbollah. Then the pagers happened, the walkie-talkies, the death -- the murder of Hassan Nasrallah,
the decapitation of Hezbollah's leadership. And along the way, the United States gave Israel a longer leash, if you will, to go pursue its policy
there because it agreed with the ultimate objectives of weakening Hezbollah.
As it relates to Iran, I think that there is probably some disagreement between the administration and the Israelis, but the Israelis are on the
cusp of executing something that they can't really do on their own. So, it's essential that they have this continued coordination with the United
States, not only because they need United States and allies probably to execute whatever retaliatory strike they mount in Iran, but also because if
Iran were to retaliate against Israel again, they need U.S. air defenses to help protect Israel.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and that's why we have so many U.S. assets in the region as we speak. A really sobering read and piece, Franklin, for -- I mean,
it's been a year of devastation and heartbreak. We talked about the hostages, you talked about the humanitarian crisis now in Gaza, and the
tens of thousands dead there. And now, the war just continuing and expanding in the region. Thank you so much for your time and for writing
this piece.
FOER: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, as the conflict in Lebanon deepens, migrant workers, predominantly women, are at serious risk. When Israel began intensively
bombing Beirut's southern suburbs, many people fled, leaving their domestic workers to fend for themselves.
Correspondent Jomana Karadsheh reports on the situation as part of CNN's As Equal series, which aims to reveal what systemic gender inequality looks
like.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Baby Abdul's life has barely begun, and yet, when he hears bombs, he points to the sky.
MARYATO SUWARI (PH): Maybe in the night, when the night, he just points up, like the sound.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): He and his mother, Maryato Suwari (ph), are one of hundreds of migrant families left with nowhere to go in Lebanon. They say
they've been abandoned by their employers.
SUWARI (PH): They go, all of them go. I don't know, I don't know where they go.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): Night after night, day after day, Israel's missiles are raining down on the Lebanese capital of Beirut. They're
hitting the southern suburbs hardest. It's where Hezbollah has a strong presence, but it's also where many migrant workers live.
Migrant workers CNN spoke to described how their employers fled for safety while they were left behind to fend for themselves without the means or
paperwork to leave.
The U.N.'s International Organization for Migration estimates that there are around 170,000 migrant workers in Lebanon and they're predominantly
women. The Kafala or sponsorship system used in Lebanon, Jordan, and many Gulf countries gives employers almost total control over their freedom of
movement.
Some workers told CNN they were refused entry to official government shelters because they're not Lebanese. Many resorted to sleeping on the
streets. The Lebanese governments rejected any accusations of discrimination between displaced people.
LEA GHORAYEB, VOLUNTEER (PH): As you can see, some of them have all their stuff with them and some have literally nothing.
Hey, mama. Hi.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): Volunteers like Lea Ghorayeb have stepped in where consulates and embassies have failed to respond, identifying buildings to
use as makeshift shelters in a country where so-called safe places are shrinking by the day.
GHORAYEB: So, this is the area where we're going to call it the communal bedroom where everybody is sleeping.
[13:25:00]
KARADSHEH (voice-over): This group of volunteers say they're now helping almost 150 women and six babies from Sierra Leone, providing basic things
like mattresses, a place to cook and electricity to charge their phones.
GHORAYEB: If you need anything, come to one of us.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): But supplies are running out, resources overwhelmed. This family from Northern Syria are one of many who saw
shelter in a garden close to Marcher Square in downtown Beirut after their neighborhood in the southern suburbs known as Dahieh came under fire.
They're one of many Dara from Migrant Workers Action is seeking to help.
DARA FOI'ELLE, MIGRANT WORKERS ACTION: A lot of the migrant workers that are now stranded are undocumented and have expired papers for, in some
cases, up to a decade. So, even if there are attempts from the sending countries governments to evacuate their citizens, most migrant workers have
expired residency papers that need penalty fees paid. People don't have work anymore, so they can't afford paying these penalty fees that can go up
to several hundred dollars.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): Across the city in the mountains, a thousand meters above Beirut, a convent has been turned into a temporary shelter for
these migrant workers, many from Ethiopia, Sudan, Sri Lanka, and Bangladesh.
Three-year-old Zahara (ph) and her mother, Indrani Maniki, is only too aware how war has dominated her daughter's short life.
INDRANI MANIKI, MIGRANT WORKER (through translator): Our building was bombed during this war, and the whole building was reduced to the ground.
We had nothing left. Just the clothes we had on.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): Meanwhile, in the corner of the first-floor room, Asha from Ethiopia and her husband Khaled (ph) hold their four-month-old
twins, Amir (ph) and Amira (ph). The family were forced to flee their home in South Lebanon as Israeli bombing increased. The convent is only a
temporary shelter.
ASHA MOHAMMAD YASIN, MIGRANT WORKER (through translator): Everything happened suddenly. And if we want to go back to our home, there is now way
to get back there. We are suffocating in life here.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): The scale of the humanitarian crisis in Lebanon is growing. Authorities say over 1.2 million people have already been
displaced since fighting escalated last month. Living rooms now reduced to makeshift tents by the side of busy roads. Many of those who came to
Lebanon in search of a better life now want nothing but to leave.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Oh, that image of that baby swinging there. Wow. Our thanks to Jomana for that report. Well, as the race for the White House continues, so
does the conversation about disinformation. Donald Trump recently made claims that the Biden administration is diverting aid from those affected
by hurricanes. Only weeks after, he made false accusations about Haitian immigrants in the State of Ohio during the presidential debate.
The state's governor, Mike DeWine, has denied those claims and expressed support for Haitian migrants. He joins Walter Isaacson to discuss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Bianna. And Governor Mike DeWine, welcome to the show.
GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): Walter, good to be with you. Thank you very much.
ISAACSON: I want to talk about Springfield, Ohio, a place near and dear to your heart. You and your wife, Fran, have lived there your entire lives
almost, or near there. And we had the situation where Donald Trump and then J. D. Vance, your home state senator, started talking about the Haitians
eating pets and dogs, and you stepped in and said, no. The mayor says that's not happening. You said it's not happening.
But I want to talk to you personally, since you've been very involved with the Haitian community and the revival of Springfield. Tell me how you feel
about all this now.
DEWINE: Well, fortunately, I think that rhetoric has calmed down a little bit, and I hope it stays calmed down. You know, I had to defend
Springfield. I had to defend my state. You know, people were not eating dogs or cats. And, you know, the Haitians who are here are employed. They
came here to work. They want to work. They do a very, very good job if you talk to the employers. And they were very much needed to keep the economy
moving.
ISAACSON: Well, wait. Why would Trump and Vance say that then? Did they not know that?
DEWINE: I -- you know, I don't know. I can't guess. But it became, you know, so visible, and people heard it across the country, of course, during
the debate, and then after that, that I just felt it was important to, you know, clarify what the facts are, and this was simply not true. These
things they were saying was simply not true.
And we face real challenges in Springfield. The Haitians have, you know, really contributed to the economy. They've helped in many, many ways. But
when you put an additional 12,000, 15,000 people in a city of only 58,000 and do that over a three-year period of time or so, you know, you have some
natural challenges that you face.
[13:30:00]
ISAACSON: When these not true things were said, it caused bomb threats. You had to close some of the schools. You had to put the state troopers
there. I think the community colleges had to go on remote. Do you think some of those scares, some of them were probably foreign -- you know, came
from foreign instigators? But do you think some people were motivated by hearing Donald Trump say this about Haitians eating pets and that it caused
-- helped cause these problems to some extent?
DEWINE: Well, we saw a lot of these threats coming from outside the United States. And I think that anytime we have people and countries, who won't
name names, but you want to cause us problems. And I think when they see an opportunity they act. And that's what they saw. They saw an opportunity.
ISAACSON: But I'm talking about the domestic people who did it. Do you think, in some ways, there's some responsibility on Trump and Vance for
helping sort of gin these people up?
DEWINE: Well, I just think everybody needs to cool their rhetoric and calm it down. You know, I can't say why someone was motivated or why -- what
they did. But what's happened now is we have not had that for the last 10 days, 12 days. And that's a very, very good thing.
You know, what motivates people domestically to make those calls or what motivates them overseas, I guess, we'll never really know. But we reacted
because we had to. You know, parents didn't feel comfortable, teachers didn't feel comfortable. So, we put -- as you said, we put members of the
Ohio State Highway Patrol directly into those schools and it worked. We were able to keep the schools open, which we thought was very, very
important. And I think parents and students and everyone else felt -- teachers felt much more comfortable because we did that.
ISAACSON: You know J. D. Vance quite well. You're from the same state. You've worked with him quite a bit and even supported him. Have you talked
to him on this?
DEWINE: No, no. I'm not talking about this. You know, I didn't think, frankly, it would -- that would do any good. I think --
ISAACSON: Wait, wait. Why wouldn't it do any good?
DEWINE: Well, they kept talking about it. They kept talking about it, and didn't stop talking about it. They finally did. But I think if you look at
the bigger problem -- the bigger -- you want to put this maybe in context. We have not, in this country, been able to control the southern border. You
know, I publicly said the Biden administration has not done what they should have done in regard to the southern border.
But we've seen this for a long time for the problem of illegal immigrants has clouded and frankly, stopped us from doing anything constructively in
regard to reform about legal immigrants. We, as a country, have a right to control who comes into this country, but we really have not had a good
debate about that or discussion even about that for a long, long time.
And I think it's frankly the problem with the illegal kind of permeates every discussion and we never can get down to who should be in this
country. For example, you know, the Haitians are here, they're here legally. We have other people who face oppression or violence or great
danger in their country who are also here legally.
This is not something new though. I remember, you know, when I was in grade school, Hungary revolution, and the tanks came in from the Soviet Union and
there were people who fled. We let them into the United States. We did the same thing when Castro came to power. And we wanted to help the people, the
Cubans who were fleeing from Castro. We've done it throughout our history.
So, there's nothing really new about singling out people who are facing great oppression, great violence, great danger and saying, we're going to
let you come in into the United States.
ISAACSON: You and your wife have a personal interest in this. You've been to Haiti maybe 20 times, I think. You really care about the plight of
people seeking asylum. Tell me how that has informed your response to this.
DEWINE: Well, I would hope that if the folks who came to Springfield were from some other country and fleeing oppression there, that my reaction
would have been the same. I think it would have been. But you're right, Fran and I have been to Haiti over 20 times. We work with a Catholic priest
in Haiti who's in a very, very poor section of Port-au-Prince, and he has about 5,000 students who go to school, and we've worked with him for many,
many years, he just does the Lord's work. He does amazing work.
[13:35:00]
And so, I think it gives me a better perspective. You know, when you look at people who are coming from Haiti today there, there has not been really
good health care, I guess, ever in Haiti. But in the last two years, it's gotten a lot worse because what's happened since the president of Haiti was
murdered we've seen a lot of Haitian doctors who have just fled the country.
So, the people who come to Springfield have not, you know, had the benefit of significant health care. And that, again, is one of the challenges that
we're addressing. The hospital is doing a great job. We have other clinics that are doing a great job and this is -- it's a process we're working on.
ISAACSON: Donald Trump says if he's elected, he's going to get rid of this status for Haitians, which is that they're here legally. He's going to try
to deport them all. Do you support that?
DEWINE: No, I would not be in favor of that. And I will tell you, if you waved a wand and every one of the Haitians that came to Springfield was
gone, we would be -- see a lot of our companies who would not have enough people to work. A lot of our companies who would go from two shifts down to
one shift.
So, a lot of the progress we've seen made in Springfield. And this is a -- as you know, historically a manufacturing city, but a city beginning about
1970 that really started going down as far as the employment and down in population.
We've seen a tremendous improvement of that in the last five, seven, 10 years where new companies have come in, companies that have been there,
manufacturers have expanded. Springfield has a lot of strategic advantages. It's very close to Columbus, 45 minutes from Columbus, which is the fastest
growing -- one of the fastest growing cities in the country. We're close to right Patterson Air Force Base, which employs a huge civilian population,
It's gone from 19,000 to about 38,000 in the last 10 years.
So, this area of the state is booming. And Ohio is moving forward. So, if you would instantly take those Haitians out, who go to work every single
day and want to work, and want to work very, very hard, a lot of those companies would not be able to do what they're doing, and it would
certainly hurt us.
ISAACSON: In 2019, you signed a law that prohibits abortion after the six weeks of pregnancy, before many women know that they're pregnant, and it
contains no exceptions for the victims of rape or incest. A judge later temporarily blocked that ban, leaving abortion legal up to 22 weeks.
And then, last year, the voters of your state, by a pretty large majority, 57 percent, opted to enshrine abortion rights into the state's
constitution. How do you see this playing out for Republicans and the electorate now?
DEWINE: Well, to me, this is a -- you know, this is a very important thing. I mean, I am pro-life, which means that I believe we have an
obligation to protect human life. It's what I tried to do during COVID. It's what I've tried to do in expanding care in Ohio for pregnant mothers
who may be poor, who may not have access to doctors. You know, we put a lot of focus on that. It's very, very important and protecting life.
And so, I accept what the vote was of the people of the State of Ohio. That is not how I voted. And you know, my wife, Fran, I did a TV ad against that
because we felt so very, very strongly about it.
But our job today, and I remind my team every day, is to continue to try to create a situation where someone, a mom, is pregnant, that she legitimately
does have options and that we get her the help that she needs and allow her then to make her decision. But we obviously would encourage her to have
that child, have that baby.
ISAACSON: One of the other hot button issues that's come up is transgender rights. And there was a bill that the Republican legislature in Ohio passed
banning any gender affirming care for kids who were transgender. And then you vetoed that, thinking, I assume, that we have to be more understanding
and try to figure out how to deal with this. Your veto gets overridden.
How would you talk to people about how we can try to find some accommodation on this issue, and what would you try to do in Ohio to
overcome what your legislature did?
DEWINE: Well, I was informed I always try to talk to people who are directly involved in something, and so I spent some time talking to
families who had a child in that situation. And we're not talking here about surgery. What we're talking about is other medical help for that
particular individual.
[13:40:00]
And I felt that, ultimately, this is a family decision. You know, we talk a lot about respecting families, respecting their choices. It seemed to me
that if the family wanted to have some assistance to that child and the children's hospital or the other hospital that they were going to and the
doctors felt that was appropriate, I didn't think it was right for us to get involved in that. So, for me, it came down to parental choice.
ISAACSON: As a Republican governor, you were not particularly supportive of Donald Trump when he was running for the nomination. You said you'd
support whoever the nominee is. So, now, if I may characterize it, you can push back, you're a lukewarm supporter of Donald Trump because he's become
the nominee. But all these things have now happened, especially the Haitian immigrant thing. Are you, in some ways, just cooling on this notion of
being for Donald Trump?
DEWINE: Well, I think my most important job, candidly, as governor of Ohio is to get things done. I am governor of Ohio. I've learned a long time ago,
and I think it's been reinforced in things I've seen over the years, that if you want to have impact on public policy you need to do it in one party
or the other. And I'm a Republican. And so, you know, I think it's a natural thing for me to support the nominee of my party.
We have only two parties. So, that means that there's disagreement within each party. That's the way it always works. Some of the things you and I've
talked about, we obviously have a disagreement with -- I have a disagreement with President Trump.
But, you know, I think if you talk to most people, I think most people do believe that, as far as the economy, he's going to be much stronger and
better for the economy. And there are other -- you know, certainly other things that I do agree with him.
But for me, it's how can I be the most effective governor for the next two and a half years, two and a quarter years now and continue to get things
done in the State of Ohio. Move Ohio forward on mental health. Move Ohio forward in how we deal with addiction. Move Ohio forward economically. And
so, there are jobs for people.
You know, we are actually creating more jobs in Ohio every day than we have people to fill them. And when I talked about legal immigrants are welcome
in the State of Ohio in my inaugural address, I absolutely meant it. We welcome people who are here legally, not people who are here illegally, but
people who are here legally, we welcome them. Because, frankly, we need them.
ISAACSON: You've always been somebody who's found a way to find consensus. And that's gone now in America. We've become much more partisan. Much more
polarized. Anything comes up. Even hurricanes. And I know you sent some of the Ohio National Guard to help in Florida. But now, even that's become
politicized.
Do you think -- and what would it take for the fever to break and for us to become less poisonous and polarized in our politics?
DEWINE: Well, I'm not sure I can answer that. You know, it is a strange thing. We are certainly more polarized. We're even more polarized where we
live. Take the State of Ohio. Our urban communities are probably more Democrat than they've been in the past. Our rural ones certainly are much,
much more Republican than they've ever been in the past. We're almost being segregated by how we live, and I imagine that's true in other states
besides the State of Ohio.
But on the other hand, when you talk to people and you talk about challenges, I think the majority of people want those of us in public
office who are lucky enough to be in public office, I think it wants to get things done. And when you talk to them, they, many times, will tell me that
they don't like it, that there's so much squabbling back and forth between the parties. But they expect us to actually get things done, compromise if
we have to, don't compromise your principles, no one should -- have to compromise their principles, but try to come up with solutions that work.
And I think there's a real trend in this country, I hope and I believe it's true, that people will demand more from people in public office in regard
to just making things work. You really see it at the governor's level.
During COVID, I worked with Democrat governors. I worked with Republican governors. We all shared ideas. It didn't matter which party someone
belonged to. I'd pick up the phone or they'd pick up the phone and call me and say, hey, what's working in your state in regard to thus and so?
[13:45:00]
Governors have to make things happen. Governors are right there. They're expected to get things done. So, I think in some sense, it's easier maybe
for governors to work in a bipartisan way.
You know, I've challenged our legislature. Legislature is very Republican. But we certainly have Democrats in there. And I've challenged our
legislature to, frankly, put more focus on mental health, put more focus on addiction problems. And they've come through. They have given me virtually
everything I've asked for in the three budgets that I've presented so far.
And while we may quarrel about other issues, on some of these things that I think are just fundamentally important, education of our kids using phonics
to teach kids how to read, what's called the science of reading. There's been a broad consensus in Ohio among Democrats and Republicans to do all of
those things. And so, I'm very optimistic about that.
ISAACSON: Governor Mike DeWine, thank you so much for joining us.
DEWINE: Great to be with you. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And now, it's the end of an era for tennis legend Rafael Nadal, who announced his retirement yesterday. Tributes have flooded the internet,
including one from his fellow tennis rival, Novak Djokovic, thanking Nadal for inspiring millions of children to start playing the sport.
The 22-time Grand Slam champion needs little introduction, and his career is a testament to his unmatched grit and love for the game. Christiane
spoke with him in Paris in 2022, just after he'd won his record 14th French Open title. Here's some of that conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: You know, there's so many superlatives, the greatest of all time, inspiring, unique. And there's
the cup, I mean, there we have it, the great trophy. Fourteen times, 22 grand slams, a whole load of other, you know, U.S. Open, Australian Open,
two Olympic gold medals, are you ready to declare, or at least have people say, that you are now the greatest of all time?
RAFAEL NADAL, 22-TIME GRAND SLAM CHAMPION: I honestly don't think much about that. And from the bottom of my heart, I really don't care that much,
you know? I mean, I think it doesn't matter. You know, I think we achieved our dreams -- I achieved my dream and I enjoy what I am doing. But in some
way, I know I am in an important part of the history of the sport. And that makes me feel proud, happy, and at the end, it doesn't matter much.
AMANPOUR: You have a reputation of being humble. You're always generous. Where does that come from? Where did that come from in your youth or in
your experience as a winner?
NADAL: Well, I think I grew up with -- I think with good values. I think my family -- I never felt the pressure from my family to play tennis. I
always felt the pressure from my family to be educated, to be respectful, not to win, honestly. And that helps.
And I think I had the right people next to me during all my life now. And I am -- I think I am a guy that listen a lot, look around and try to take the
things that I like from the people. And because of tennis, I think I was able to live experiences that I will never enjoy it without tennis. And no
people -- no different parts of the world, and in that case, you see how fortunate we are for all the things that we are able to live.
AMANPOUR: You must feel some joy at beating Federer and Djokovic in terms of the Grand Slams. Can you take some joy?
NADAL: Yes, of course. No, no, of course. I -- as I said, of course, I want to be the player with more Grand Slams of the history. That's
competition, but it's not something that I am upset at all, and it's not something that honestly changed my mind. I didn't --
AMANPOUR: Maybe that's how you keep achieving?
NADAL: You never know. But honestly, it's something that not bothers me. Novak win 23. And I stay with 22. I think my happiness will not change at
all. Not even 1 percent. So --
[13:50:00]
AMANPOUR: So, people like McEnroe and Mats Wilander and others have been saying never again, this is never -- this record will never be touched. It
will never be broken, specifically the 14 French Opens. A, do you agree with that?
NADAL: Difficult to say. But from myself, no. But I mean, I always have something in mind that I always consider myself a very normal guy. So, if I
did it maybe somebody else can do it. But it's obvious that the record of 22 Grand Slams I think is something much more possible that somebody
increase that record. I am sure that going to happen.
I mean, 14 Roland Garros is something, I mean, very difficult. I don't know, because -- yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Very, very difficult. And you love Roland Garros. And you always say that it's your favorite. But I understand that clay is the
toughest surface to play. So, tell me about what it takes to win on clay.
NADAL: Well, clay, in terms of physical demanding, yes, it's the toughest, because in terms of tactics, too, because you have more time to think, you
have more time to prepare the points. And in some way, I think it's a surprise that allows you to play aggressive or play defensive.
You know, you have different chances, but I love to play in every single surface. I --
AMANPOUR: On all the surfaces?
NADAL: Yes. I enjoy it a lot, playing on grass, doing all my life, on hard too. Even sometimes the hard court is a little bit tougher for my foot,
honestly. But I don't know. I like the tennis in general, in every surface. And that's one of the beautiful things that we have in our sport that to be
a great player, you need to improve your game in very different circumstances.
AMANPOUR: Passing the torch is a big theme. You know, we've seen a lot of young, great players come up and then they meet you. Whatever round it is,
and then that's it. I thought it was really sweet when Casper Ruud said, I'm not his first victim. But he's also -- you're his hero. When he came
up, he said, through your, Nadal Academy, what do you think when you're playing somebody like that, who clearly is, you know, hero worshiping you,
but also wondering about where the torch is going to go? Do you ever think of that?
NADAL: Yes. And for me, it's something very beautiful that today I can still be competitive against players that they are young and they watch us
play on TV when they are growing, you know, it's something that it's beautiful. I think it's beautiful for them, it's beautiful for us, and
that's a good combination. You know, generations facing each other I think create something special.
AMANPOUR: And I guess, finally, what makes Rafa Nadal happy? What makes you beyond tennis?
NADAL: Well, first of all, the good health of myself, of course, and the people that I love, because without health the rest of the things are
impossible. I'm not talking about injuries, I'm talking general health. Then I think I am lucky that I have my friends since I was a kid, the same
group of friends, a very close family next to me. I don't know. Share moments with the people that I like is what really makes me feel happy.
AMANPOUR: Rafael Nadal, thank you so much.
NADAL: Thank you very much.
AMANPOUR: Congratulations on making history. Thanks for being with us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: The end of an era. And finally, for us, we want to congratulate this year's Nobel Peace Prize winners. The Japanese Confederation of A- and
H-Bomb Suffers Organizations.
When America dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August of 1945, 120,000 people were killed in an instant, many more would die from
severe burns and the impact of nuclear fallout. Well, since then, survivors have passionately campaigned for peace. And when Christiane spoke to
survivor and campaigner Setsuko Thurlow, she spoke about what gives her hope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Where do you see hope though? You see so much activism in the streets, you see young people all over the world, you know, really trying
to protest and determine their fate. Where do you see hope?
[13:55:00]
SETSUKO THURLOW, NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT CAMPAIGNER: I see hope in them, young people, and I have been seeing the evidence of their awakening to reality
and realizing as a citizen's responsibility to keep this planet as beautiful and livable.
And, you know, I visit many countries and talk to young people, high schools, universities, and my hopefulness belong there. 70 percent of
American news says that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not necessary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episodes shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
