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Amanpour
Interview with UNICEF Global Spokesperson James Elder; Interview with Former U.S. House Speaker and "The Art of Power" Author Nancy Pelosi; Interview with "If We Are Brave" Author Theodore R. Johnson. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 14, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
A dire situation from Lebanon to Northern Gaza as Israeli forces pound both. I speak to UNICEF about the ongoing humanitarian catastrophe.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY PELOSI, FORMER U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER AND AUTHOR, "THE ART OF POWER": Look, his lips are moving. He's not telling the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- with three weeks left until the U.S. election, the race remains neck-and-neck and anxiety runs high. House Speaker Emerita Nancy
Pelosi tells me she sees this election as vital to saving American democracy.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THEODORE R. JOHNSON, AUTHOR, "IF WE ARE BRAVE": If they do not make the country more inclusive, they will have to contend with the people they've
excluded outside of democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- reflections on democracy and racial identity. Michel Martin with author Theodore R. Johnson to discuss his new book, If We Are Brave,
Essays from Black Americanas.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
From Lebanon to Northern Israel to Gaza and likely next to Iran, war in the Middle East is intensifying on multiple fronts. Today, an Israeli airstrike
hit a village north of Beirut, killing at least 19 people. This as a Hezbollah drone strike killed four IDF soldiers deep inside Israel. And
there were panic scenes in Gaza after an Israeli airstrike hit the crowded courtyard of a hospital, killing four people. Thousands of people have
sought refuge on the hospital grounds. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UN AHMAD RADI, GAZA RESIDENT (through translator): It was a horrific night. One of the worst nights. As if it were the fire of the devil. Fire
and explosions. We have never seen anything like this. People came out totally burnt. It was very disturbing. Everybody was running, just looking
for a place to hide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And we must warn you, the video is disturbing. Families of the victims bid emotional farewell to their relatives, crying over their
lifeless bodies. The hospital attacks on Gaza on Sunday, in which at least 41 people, including children were killed.
James Elder is the global spokesperson for UNICEF and he's just returned from Gaza. He's joining us from Geneva headquarters now. James Elder,
welcome back to the program. So, just give us your reaction to what appears to be a real escalation in Gaza, first and foremost.
JAMES ELDER, UNICEF GLOBAL SPOKESPERSON: Well, very much so, Christiane. Just looking at that attack on the hospital complex in Deir el-Balah, a
hospital I know very, very well. I know many of those families who have been displaced three or four times, try and picture it being displaced
three or four times. Your home has already been destroyed. You lose something each time. I've seen those people. They're intense.
At the same time, in the last couple of days, because of the intensity, I think it's eight or nine days in a row now of attacks in the north, what we
are seeing forced evacuations of families who know how desperate it is in the south in terms of a lack of sanitation and water, many of those
families, if they were able to flee, many of them were shot as they were trying to flee. Christiane, many of them got to that hospital. That's where
they took refuge. Only then overnight to have an airstrike.
So, we seem to have hit a point where there are no constraints. There appear to be no limits. And I say that again based on data. I mean, the
casualty rate of children speaks to this alarming disregard. We are now more than one year into this, and if we look at averages of boys and girls,
we're looking at 40, four, zero, children killed every day, on average. Not for 10 days, not 20 days, Christiane, but for a year. And as you rightly
point out there, somehow it's escalating, somehow it's getting worse for those civilians.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: James, can I just drill down a little bit on -- let's just take the Jabalya refugee camp. According to officials, and maybe even according
to the U.N. there about 300 people have been killed since the Israeli ground offensive started, which was, you know, last year. Emergency
workers, apparently, have not yet been able to recover those who've just been killed in the area. Do you know anything about that?
ELDER: I know emergency workers -- the people I've spoken to -- most of the people I've spoken to are in the middle area, Deir el-Balah, and they
have spoken to, you know, family and friends in the north, who have simply don't know where loved ones are. I've spoken to emergency workers, who in
past experiences, Christiane, have spoken about looking for -- you know, digging through rubble, digging through -- hearing voices, following voices
with whatever meager tools they have only to learn that one of those people is a family member. So, that's gives some sense.
I know that pretty much -- well, not pretty much, every single day on average, this month, a school, a shelter has been struck in Gaza. So,
again, we are hitting a level now in terms of ferocity of attacks. Two things are happening to people in Gaza, Christiane, one is they need the --
they need some level of safety and they know there is no safety. We've said that for 12 months. At the same time, they need humanitarian aid.
Now, Jabalya, when we're speaking of, there has been no food aid allowed in there this entire month. Commercial trucks, which along with the United
Nations have been the lifeline of getting medicines, food, water to civilians. There's been no commercial trucks into Gaza in the last few
days. This is everything that the International Community ever feared, but worse somehow. No aid. And more attacks on civilian areas.
AMANPOUR: James, can I -- I want to try to understand what's going on, because there's been a lot written and a lot spoken about, a so-called
generals plan and they quote a retired major general who has -- I mean, I think it's been shortened to the starvation or surrender option in Northern
Gaza, basically to offer the opportunity for anybody to get out within a certain period of time. And after that, whether they're militants or
civilians who choose to stay, who don't leave, then they are fair game, as they try to, what they say, root out the final elements up there of the
Hamas militants.
Have you heard anything like that, or more to the point, are you seeing any of those -- that operation being put into place? In other words, are people
being told to leave? And as you've said, you know, these places, even the U.N. says, have been -- well, there's been a concerted reduction in the
amount of aid, humanitarian aid, over the last period, as you just mentioned.
ELDER: So, yes, certainly in the north, there is no doubt that there have been -- there are forced evacuations going consistently and people have
been pushed into areas that are so-called safe zones. Again, it is important to remember that there are two things that make a safe zone. One,
legally Israel has a responsibility as the occupying power for food, water, medicine. Those things are absent. The second one, which shouldn't need to
be stated, a self-declared safe zone cannot be bombed. That's been happening.
So, yes, there are forced evacuations and we've seen that with increasing intensity in the north over the last two weeks. We've also seen reports
from the Office of High Commission for Human Rights of people being struck or attacked by quadcopters, by drones, as they fled people at checkpoints
being hit in some sort of military means. We've seen schools in the north struck. We've seen a food -- a feeding center struck.
So, the North right now is in probably its most desperate stage. Unfortunately, even those families who want to escape to the south, knowing
again that the south has a desperate, desperate lack of food, water, medicine, an agency like UNICEF, we built thousands of toilets, Christiane.
We have massively increased the level of water supply. It's not nearly enough because we have now seen a deprivation of both aid coming in, but
also commercial trucks.
So, people don't want to come to the south because they know what it looks like and they know, as we saw overnight, at a hospital, at a hospital
complex, there is still an attack. But yes, those people are moving south under a great degree of force.
AMANPOUR: And on this issue again, another senior -- a senior U.N. official is quoted as basically saying, "We need the Israeli military to
understand that whatever it is they are going to be doing long-term here, i.e., in Gaza, humanitarian workers need to get in there and do their work
parallel to that. Do you think that's even possible?
[13:10:00]
ELDER: I think I've seen some of the bravest colleagues on the ground, United Nations colleagues, you know, NGOs, non-government organizations,
Palestinians. Unfortunately, we've also seen hundreds and hundreds of aid workers pay the dearest price in the same way we've seen hundreds and
hundreds of journalists.
So, yes, I continue to see, you know, UNICEF, WHO, UNRWA colleagues at the very, very front lines. But too frequently we are seeing attacks on United
Nations convoys. I've been in the United Nations convoy where I've seen fishermen killed in cold blood. You know, there's so much, Christiane,
spoken for a long time around a ceasefire and I -- and it was always -- you know, it is the most important thing. And I think if we saw a ceasefire in
Gaza, we would see a de-escalation across the region.
I think one thing that people don't recall it frequently enough around the ceasefire is when we had the only sustained humanitarian pause, a ceasefire
in November, more than 100 hostages were released, a main game to free these people from an unimaginable hell in Gaza. More than 100. Since that
time it's less than 10 hostages that have been rescued.
So, there are so many reasons, again, why you hear, you know, United Nations officials point to a ceasefire and hostages being one, and yet,
they continue to be ignored as it seems that, you know, there are -- the leadership who looked at military -- a military solution to this, where we
know full well there will be no such thing in Gaza or the region. It has to be political.
AMANPOUR: Can I just ask you to just broaden back the lens a little bit, because this is a widening war for sure. In Lebanon, over the last several
weeks now, we have, according to government officials, more than 1,500 killed, more than 8,000 injured since September the 16th. But also, U.N.
officials wounded and having been fired on. Forcibly their base was entered, stopped logistics. You know, there's just -- I mean, U.N.
officials, a U.N. base was overrun by the Israeli soldiers.
What message does that send? These are meant to be there to try to patrol, you know, what they can do. It's not perfect at all, but the Israelis are
taking over, they say. If the U.N. can't do it, we'll do it. And this seems to be part of the collateral damage.
ELDER: Yes. I mean, I can't speak to another agency, but I think we -- there are worrying parallels that we saw from the very earliest stages of
two weeks ago when the attacks on Lebanon, both ways, you know, escalated so greatly.
What we saw very quickly was a large number of children being killed. And it is not simply enough to claim, you know, that civilians are not the
target of this attack. Proportionality demands a precaution -- precautions are taken, and that hasn't been the case. So, we saw a large number of
children killed. Then we saw hundreds of thousands of people, now up to a million people suddenly displaced.
And we saw schools become shelters everywhere. We saw language in terms of -- the same thing we've heard in Gaza. These are targeted. These are
proportional. In the same way we saw in -- you know, for example, Rafah, a limited offensive. Rafah is now almost empty. It's important. We look at
the language because, you know, in this war, truth matters.
I mean, we've said for a long time it was America's own JFK. Sincerity is subject to proof. When we talk of United Colleague -- United Nations,
colleagues on the ground, those who are detained at checkpoints, who are denied access, who are delayed, who see lifesaving aid time and again,
restricted, where the only consistency is inconsistency --
AMANPOUR: Thanks, James.
ELDER: We see that truth.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Thank you so much for bringing us all that you can from there and your recent visit to Gaza.
Now, as the humanitarian crisis in Gaza becomes more desperate, U.S. support for Israel shows, of course, no signs of slowing down. Indeed, the
United States is sending a powerful anti-missile system to Israel and about 100 troops to operate it, potentially are waiting for what might happen in
terms of Israel are taking targeted action in Iran.
But pressure is building on President Biden to end the war and with just three weeks to go until the U.S. election, anxiety is high among Democrats
as the race remains locked in a dead heat.
House Speaker Emeritus Nancy Pelosi sees this election as a call to save democracy. She came into the studio here and I started by asking her about
the situation in the Middle East and whether the U.S. is adequately applying what leverage it has in the Middle East.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Speaker Pelosi, welcome back to our program.
NANCY PELOSI, FORMER U.S. HOUSE SPEAKER AND AUTHOR, "THE ART OF POWER": Wonderful being here. Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you first before we get to your book about current affairs. We've just had this terrible report about the Israeli strikes on
Gaza and Lebanon.
[13:15:00]
Now, as they continue their counteroffensives, we've seen an attack on U.N. peacekeepers in Lebanon, and we've seen over the weekend some pretty dire
attacks on refugee camp, on various areas that dozens have been killed including children. I just wonder your response to that given America is
the most important ally
PELOSI: Well, the fact is that we just. a few days ago, observed a one- year anniversary of a terrible assault on Israel by Hamas, a terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Sadly, since then, we've seen
many casualties of noncombatants, children and families in Gaza, and now some elsewhere in the region, and it's just intolerable.
We cannot -- we -- war has to be outlawed as a resolution of any conflict or disagreement, but right now, we have to live with the circumstances that
we have.
We've all been talking about a two-state solution for a long time, for Israel and for the Palestinians. The current leader in Israel does not
agree to that, even though for about 30 years, since like '93, we had been talking about that. I don't know if Netanyahu wants peace. I don't know if
he's capable of peace. I don't know if he's afraid of peace, but he has gone off the course that we all thought we were in as we support Israel.
AMANPOUR: He actually came to the Congress not so long ago. What did you make of that invitation and the way he spoke against your party and your
administration?
PELOSI: Well, it wasn't his first time to do that. He came before -- the invitation was misrepresented. It wasn't bipartisan. But the speaker said
it was, and so he showed up, and spoke against President Obama, who's masterful, virtuoso initiative for the Iran nuclear agreement was
remarkable. And he came and spoke against our president and our Congress. It was terrible. It was disgraceful.
This speech that he made recently, I thought, was the worst presentation ever made by a leader of a country invited to speak before the Congress. I
was against the invitation. But I'm not the speaker anymore. And of course, I did not attend, but I did observe what he had to say. It was most
unfortunate.
But any -- we all support Israel. It is our -- in our national interest, our security interest to do so, our values interest to do so over time. But
right now. that we have given Netanyahu has been used in a way that is most destructive.
AMANPOUR: Would you say right now, and we speak in the context of an election, that all foreign powers and leaders are watching very closely,
not only yourselves in the United States? Would you say right now America should be using its leverage? And if so, what is that leverage?
PELOSI: Well, our support for Israel has always been bipartisan. And we want it to continue to be so in the Congress, in the House, the Senate, the
White House, as well as among the American people. But it does not give license to so many people dying, not combatants, as I said, in the war.
So, we have to, again, try to strive to bring it to a two-state solution. I emphasize the word solution, because I've said that to Netanyahu. It's not
just a two-state situation, it's a solution, one that really works out the security, the prosperity, the freedom for the Palestinian people, as well
as the security of the Israelis.
AMANPOUR: And given that there's an election, are you concerned by the very, very difficult polling for Kamala Harris, particularly regarding Arab
Americans, particularly in the swing State of Michigan?
PELOSI: Yes. Well, it is something to be considered. When we talk about this subject, people forget, they forget a Muslim ban instituted by this
president. One of the first things he did --
PELOSI: By president, Donald Trump?
PELOSI: By Donald Trump, one of the first things he did in his presidency was to have a Muslim ban. Democrats flocked to their protection and yet,
this is what Donald Trump did. And now, because of this situation, which again, Joe Biden has been a friend of Israel, that's for sure, but he's
also been a friend of the Palestinians.
[13:20:00]
And even before October 7th, when we were meeting our September 30th deadline for the budget, I was going to the Republicans and asking for
humanitarian assistance for refugees. They said, we'll give you that as long as it's not used for the Palestinians. So, the fact that she would be
paying a price is -- for policies that were very pro-Palestinian is really sad. But death is sad and that is being reflected.
I'm not sure it's all spontaneous. Some of it is. It's spontaneous, it's grassroots, it's truly that. I think some of it is motivated for other
reasons.
AMANPOUR: Let me talk to you about your book now called "The Art of Power." You have said in your book, I know Donald Trump's mental imbalance.
I had seen it up close. His denial and then delays when the COVID pandemic struck. His penchant for repeatedly stomping out of meetings. His foul
mouth. His pounding on tables, his temper tantrums, his disrespect for our nation's patriots, and his total separation from reality and actual events.
You know, how did you deal with that? And do you think this country, your country, can survive another term?
PELOSI: Well, I've said it over and over again, one term, our country is strong enough to withstand. But when you see what -- she's even gotten
worse since I wrote that. He's saying in this campaign that he will criminalize any comments that are criticizing his actions. He'll
criminalize freedom of speech. He -- of course, will have a ban on abortion, a national ban on abortion.
AMANPOUR: Even though he says he won't?
PELOSI: Well, he -- well, if his lips are moving, he's not telling the truth. If -- when you go to so many of the things that he is doing, what is
a democracy? That's what's on the ballot. A democracy is free and fair elections, a peaceful transfer of power, independent judiciary. It's about
having respect for our constitution, which we take an oath to protect and defend. He says maybe we should terminate the constitution.
So, I don't know that a country can withstand its character, can withstand another term of Donald Trump. But we're not -- we don't agonize what
organizes. We have made a decision to win this election and it depends on the turnout. The polls are close, yes. We don't know how reliable they are.
But let's assume that they are for the moment and just understand that we must own the ground, turn out the vote, have a message that is appealing
and unifying, not dividing in our country. And of course, the money, the three M's, mobilization, message, and the money to get the job done. And
that's coming in at the grassroots level.
AMANPOUR: And do you feel confident? You are one of the savviest and the most important vote gatherers and vote getters in recent -- certainly in
democratic history. Do you feel confident that those three M's and the ground game and get out the vote is where you want it to be right now?
PELOSI: I think so. Yes. I -- when you say, is it where it is right now? It has to continue to be, one of the reasons I'm in London is to do the
Americans abroad to make sure that people get their votes in. When we won in two -- the house in 2018 to stop him after he won '16, many of the
differences were made in these districts by the votes of Democrats abroad or just people abroad. But we're appealing to the Democrats abroad.
So, we're in a good place. I'm very proud of Kamala Harris and Tim Walz. They are the vision of our founders, which they share the values of the
American people, which are so important. She's strong. She's strong, officially, policy, strategy, presentation and the rest. She's politically
astute. She wouldn't be the nominee if she were not. And so, she can take us to victory as well as when the other -- the House, the Senate, and state
races as well.
AMANPOUR: They say Nancy Pelosi is who and what convinced President Biden that he had to reconsider. And as you famously put it, make the decision
about whether he's going to run or not going to run.
You know, you've been asked a lot about it. But what is your relationship now with him? You've always professed to be so fond of him and obviously,
he's done incredible legislation with all of your help in Congress during his presidency and et cetera. He's been in the -- in Congress for so many
decades.
PELOSI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Do you talk to him since July?
PELOSI: I haven't spoken to him since July, but of course, we've been out of session for a while, and I've been on the campaign trail constantly. I
have great respect for the president. I think his legacy is a very substantial one for our country. It is our legacy too. I did not want that
to be lost.
[13:25:00]
My concern was about winning the election. You make a decision to win and then you have to make every decision in favor of winning. Own that ground
with the mobilization message, non-menacing and the money to win, and who is the candidate.
Now, my concerns were about the campaign, not about the candidate. He's fabulous. But the campaign, I thought, was not going in the right
direction. And I expressed my concern about that. It was up to the president to make the decision whether he would continue to run. He made
that decision.
AMANPOUR: Do you think you could have won with him as the candidate?
PELOSI: It's hard to believe -- you know, it's hard to ask me that question because I don't understand how anybody could vote for Donald
Trump, but they do. And so, we have to be prepared. I do think there was a generational thing though that had to be recognized, the two of them, so
old to be running for president.
AMANPOUR: You talk about Trump, I want to play what Trump actually said about democracy and about, you know, how it might work out. He said it to
Fox News on Sunday, and he was talking about an enemy within. I don't know whether you caught it, probably.
PELOSI: No, I didn't.
AMANPOUR: But anyway, here's a bit of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within, not even the people
that have come in and destroying our country. And by the way, totally destroying our country. The towns, the villages, they're being inundated.
But I don't think they're the problem in terms of Election Day. I think the bigger problem are the people from within.
We have some very bad people. We have some sick people, radical left lunatics. It should be very easily handled by -- if necessary, by national
guard, or if really necessary by the military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: He probably includes you in the radical left and probably includes you as an enemy from within. National Guard, military.
PELOSI: What you have to understand about the former president is he's always projecting. When he talks about the enemy within, he's talking about
himself and his supporters. And when he's talking about actions that may be taken, he's talking about what they have done, what they are doing right
now and what they may continue to do.
So, understand when he says, Crooked Hillary, he knows he's crooked. When he says, Crazy Nancy, he knows he's crazy. When he says, the enemy within,
he's talking about himself.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, because it's very, very, minute by minute and grippingly written, your memories and experience of January 6th, when they
were actually looking for Nancy, they were coming after you. I want to ask you to read a paragraph that you write about. And the question really is,
how scared were you at that time? I mean, your daughter was there, she was doing this film about you.
PELOSI: I wasn't afraid for myself, but I was afraid for the members and the staff and the press who were there to cover that. I was afraid for the
people who keep the Capitol in order because they were being insulted. These people who came were defecating on the floor of the Capitol. They
were grotesque. So, they were the enemy within and continue to be.
So, for me, I have a lot of security. I was speaker, I'm in succession. So, I have a lot of security. I wasn't concerned about. I was concerned for the
vice president. I knew what they were saying about him. I knew they were coming to put a bullet in my head. That's what they said. But I've been a
target for a long time. He was a target that day, and I worried about him. And I spoke to him about that at that time.
AMANPOUR: The vice president?
PELOSI: Vice President Mike Pence.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
PELOSI: But he did the right thing for our country. He is not supporting this person for president, the former president. And I'm happy to --
AMANPOUR: Yes, read that paragraph, because it's quite dramatic.
PELOSI: Because I was concerned about my colleagues, they did not have the security I had, even though they have the security. The lawmakers inside
the chamber had truly harrowing experiences. Jamie Raskin, still on the House floor, had listened as fellow members called their spouses to tell
them goodbye, as had the vice president's security detail.
Jamie and other representatives had donned gas mask because the tear gas canisters were being fired in the hallways. The House chaplain said a
prayer as members pulled out the plastic ventilator hoods outfitted with air filters that were discreetly hidden in pouches under their seats.
[13:30:00]
Until that moment, men there had no idea that the protective hoods were there. They had been added to the House chamber as part of the enhanced
security precautions put in place after 9/11. This is in the House of Representatives.
AMANPOUR: And it's a first that we hear about those masks, first and foremost, and that members were calling their families to say goodbye.
PELOSI: To say goodbye. And what was really sad about it was that after all this happened -- and Republican and Democratic members were in that
chamber as well, after all this happened, and people said to me, you've got to do whatever you're going to do in an undisclosed location about
approving the electoral college vote. I said, no, we're going to the floor. We're showing the American people and the world that America, that we have
prevailed to this and that these people have not won.
But when that happened, overwhelmingly, led by the Republican leadership, they voted against -- in the House, they voted against the certification of
the Electoral College.
AMANPOUR: Even after this?
PELOSI: Even after they saw all of that.
AMANPOUR: What do you say to people? Because Trump, even in 2020, had 78 million votes. OK. That's a lot of votes.
PELOSI: It is.
AMANPOUR: And today, people say his supporters in his campaign would say, oh, people like yourself or whoever says the kind of things you're saying
about him and warning about, you know, the authoritarianism, the threat to democracy, they say, quote/unquote, "Trump derangement syndrome." That
everybody's just hysterical, things were great under his presidency, and there's no need to fear.
PELOSI: Well, it's a really sad thing, and as I've said, don't ask me why anybody would vote for him, but some people are just very anti, anti-woman,
anti-newcomer, anti-LGBTQ, anti-diversity, and the rest, and will never get their vote.
And then, very rich people, billionaires, they don't want to pay taxes, they don't want any regulation of clean air, clean water, any of that, they
just wanted not to pay taxes. And some of them don't pay any, and some pay -- do not pay their fair share. So, they fund this.
In between, they're people whose views are very -- of great concern to our country. They're concerned about innovation. What does this mean for my
family and for me and for my family in terms of jobs? They're concerned about globalization. There was a factory down the road and now, it's gone.
And those are legitimate concerns, which Joe Biden and Kamala Harris addressed as we did in the Congress, in our bills, in the Rescue Package,
in the Infrastructure Bill, in the CHIPS and Science Bill, in the PACT Act, in the IRA.
AMANPOUR: Child poverty.
PELOSI: All of it. Well, they don't care so much about child poverty, even though they -- many of them benefit from it, benefit from our investments
in child poverty. But I would say that most, no. One of the things that held up the budget this year was they -- Republicans were reluctant to fund
food, nutrition for women, infant, and children who needed food. So, I wouldn't say that they are too concerned about child poverty.
AMANPOUR: And finally, I want to ask you about your own family. A couple of years ago you, again, were a target, but they got your husband at your
house in San Francisco and they violently -- this guy violently attacked your husband with a hammer. And it has been a long process of
rehabilitation. How is he doing? How were you able to talk to him about it? How has your daughters processed it?
PELOSI: Well, thank you for asking, and I know he'll be comforted to know that you cared. He -- it was two years, it was the end of October is when
this happened, right before the election two years ago. And where is Nancy, where is Nancy, was the same thing that was said in the Capitol, by the
same crowd, this guy, that he violated the sanctity of our home, that he violently attacked my husband looking for me. It was a horrible experience
for anyone to have.
But what's really doubly sad was when -- maybe even more so, was when this happened, when we didn't even know if he would live, the former president,
his son, the governor of Virginia, Elon Musk, people like that thought it was really funny. They were making jokes on their -- in the social media.
Oh, it was just a very funny thing.
From a standpoint of physical violence, that's one thing to repair from. Trauma is another thing. Whether it was our volunteers, our staff in the
White House -- excuse me, in the Capitol on January 6th, or my children and grandchildren and our family, the trauma of our father, our pop, being
attacked, and they thought it was really funny.
[13:35:00]
Physical violence and the trauma that goes with it is something we must remove from our politics, including, sadly, the assassination attempts on
the president, which we all condemned, as opposed to what they did when I had the attack on my family.
So, he's coming along. It'll take a while. But we're glad he's with us, because it was a centimeter away from not being with us because of this
person who was following up on my comments about the other side.
AMANPOUR: You have kept going in terms of -- kept running for re-election.
PELOSI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And several times you've said, and I remember you saying it to me once a long time ago, as long as he's there, I'm here. So, you were
talking about Trump. Do you still feel that? Are you going to keep going?
PELOSI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I know you're running in this election.
PELOSI: Well, I know we had -- right now, we have to just win the election. We don't agonize, we organize, put one good day in front of
another. No wasted time, no underutilized resources, and no regrets the day after the election that we could have done something, better or more.
Because we do have a plan.
But this is a different election. It's not John McCain. It's not Mitt Romney. It's not George Bush, George Herbert Walker Bush. It's not Bob
Dole. They were all patriotic Americans, and whatever the outcome is the outcome. This is somebody very seriously dangerous to our democracy, to our
personal freedoms, which are part of our democracy, and to our reputation in the world.
So, there was no way -- you know, making a decision to stay was to make a decision to make sure he never steps foot in the White House again.
In any event, time will tell, and whatever it is, we will accept the results of the election. That's something they won't even say. They still
haven't accepted the results of the last election.
AMANPOUR: Speaker Pelosi, thank you very much.
PELOSI: My pleasure to be here. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Just today, Kamala Harris unveiled a new economic plan to provide more opportunities for black men. Part of the Democrats broader
effort to secure the black vote. Theodore R. Johnson is an expert on this issue. His new book, "If We Are Brave: Essays from Black Americana,"
tackles race and democracy. And he joins Michel Martin to take us through those firsthand accounts.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Theodore Johnson, thank you so much for joining us once again.
THEODORE R. JOHNSON, AUTHOR, "IF WE ARE BRAVE": Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.
MARTIN: You're kind of a different animal when it comes to, you know, sort of punditry per se. I mean, you know, 20-year Navy veteran, you are a
columnist for major news outlets and you're an author.
So, it's kind of hard to pigeonhole you, just like it's kind of hard to pigeonhole this book. Like, how do you describe it? What do you think this
book does?
JOHNSON: The book is an essay collection and sort of the traditional sense of the term for black writers in particular. I mean, it's probably too much
praise, but I think of it in the same vein of writing as, like, the Harlem renaissance and the essayists of the civil rights movement that were very
rigorous in their journalism and their research, but had a common touch and how they relayed very complicated and complex issues to a general public.
So, I sort of think of my career as providing the perfect background or set of life experiences that allow me to tackle big topics in essay form while
also incorporating the very rigorously researched insights that I hope to bring forward in the writing.
MARTIN: I see it as reflections on what it means to be an American. It's reflections on democracy, but from a very distinctly African American, you
know, perspective. Why did you feel we need to have these conversations right now?
JOHNSON: Yes. So, most of it is because there seems to be a fight over the identity of this country and the people that belong here. Some folks want
to take us back hundreds of years and others say we've actually not realized the potential of the country. And so, maybe we should be doing the
work to get us to that place, which will require, you know, an engagement with the idea, the identity, our history and sort of meditate on what does
it mean to belong in this country.
So, it tries to take big ideas, democracy, affirmative action, police brutality, racism, and instead of talking about structural racism or the
need for criminal justice reform, I wanted to talk about the experience of people in this system, the experience of Americans, white, black, all
races, ethnicities, all of us are living in the same system that's underperforming what it could be.
[13:40:00]
MARTIN: One of the interesting things you do, though, in the book is you kind of compare the experience of understanding your Americanness and you
compare that in the -- your experience with being a person of faith, and then you kind of draw that as an analogy to how we kind of fall in and out
of, in and out of love, if I can put it that way, with the Democratic experiment with the American idea. Do you want to talk more about that?
JOHNSON: Yes. And so, you're absolutely right. The first essay, the lead essay is essentially Ted Johnson's sermon on democracy as delivered by this
black boy from North Carolina who grew up going to church three or four times a week. And so, it's almost like this is my conversion story for why
I believe democracy is the way forward in America.
And the reason that's important is because democracy is legitimacy as a system, writ large, is an article of faith on every person who participates
in that democracy. If you don't believe that the outcomes on democracy are legitimate it results in catastrophe. We don't have to guess that this week
we're all around for January 6. We saw what happened when the legitimacy of institutions and processes are questioned. People die, systems get -- you
know, sort of overturned or unraveled.
And so, we have to believe the system is worth investing in if we're going to commit to the work of making it more inclusive and to the work of
reforming it. If you don't believe that democracy is the answer, it's very hard to get people to invest in voting, to invest in -- you know, in the
political system and its outcomes, to see those outcomes as legitimate. And that if we're committed to the -- both the country and the process for
improving the country, then outcomes can be better than if we don't believe in the country and believe that the system is no longer useful, then we're
at a different starting point, which could, you know, turn very ugly very quickly.
MARTIN: Well, I can make an argument that it's already turned very ugly very quickly, if you consider that on January 6th, people died. You know,
we're really lucky that more people didn't die. But a lot of people were hurt. A lot of people, particularly our first responders, lost their
careers, if not their lives, because they were so badly injured, they couldn't work again.
JACKSON: It's ugly. But in the 1960s, a president was assassinated, an attorney general and presidential candidate was assassinated. Martin Luther
King, Malcolm X assassinated, Medgar Evers assassinated. Hundreds of protests -- and in the summer of '68, the Vietnam War protests were
students at Kent State were killed. So, if we think January 6th was bad, our grandparents would say, children, you have seen nothing yet.
And this book is both a meditation on democracy, but also a warning, that if we don't heed history, if we don't heed the life experiences of those
who came before us, we -- as the whole saying goes, we are doomed to repeat these things. And January 6th, then, instead of becoming this terrible day
following a presidential election becomes the beginning of a terrible decade, like the '60, like the 1860s. And we've got an opportunity to avoid
that outcome, but only if we get ahead of the problem now.
MARTIN: I want to read something from the book. You say -- you're talking about your plea, your desire that people engage in this reimagination, as
you put it. You said, reimagination, however, is tricky business. It arises from the premise that who we are is no longer sufficient or is deeply
flawed in some way. Ego, whether personal or national, does not like confronting the truth. It's uncomfortable and invites an identity crisis.
When a nation as large and diverse as the United States is overdue for a reimagination, those at the center of the national narrative are likely to
feel threatened.
I mean, you could understand why people who have been historically left out of the national narrative want in. But why should the people you're talking
about here, who see themselves as threatened, or being displaced, or not wanting to be dominated, why should they participate in this kind of
reimagination that you talk about?
JACKSON: Well, if they truly believe in the founding ideals of the country, not lip service stuff, but if they truly believe in it, they don't
have a choice. You know, I think Jill Lepore, the historian, has said that in the first presidential election in 1790, 6 percent of the people in this
country were eligible to vote, and only half of them did.
The story of our democracy is the story of excluded people seeking participation. And when they are denied that participation, they're also
Americans, and Americans don't take likely to be told you're less than, you don't get to have freedom, it's just for these other people, you don't get
to have liberty and rights or access to democracies for other people.
So, if they do not make democracy a more inviting exercise, if they do not make the country more inclusive, they will have to contend with the people
they've excluded outside of democracy. We've had a civil war to answer this question. We've had a civil rights movement to answer this question. People
were lynched trying to get a better answer out of this question. Suffragists, you know, abused and beaten trying to get better answers out
of this question. But what never stops is the sort of spirit of progress.
[13:45:00]
The second part of this, which sort of follows from the first, because we're a nation of 330, 40, 50 million people. And if you think that
democracy is only for 70 percent of those 350 million people, you squander massive amounts of talent and capabilities of your populace.
Countries do not thrive when they squander the thing that makes them special, unique, which is to say they're people. So, not only will those
people not stand idly by, but those at the top that want a prosperous America or want to sort of hog the benefits of this country for themselves
will find that there's less benefits, less resources, less good feelings to go around when you -- when exclusion is your politics.
MARTIN: But what about people who just don't see it that way and seem to believe, whether through force, through violence, through the ballot box,
through domination some kind of way that they're narrowing of the American story is going to continue to prevail. What do you say to that?
JOHNSON: Yes. So, the first thing is on January 7th, January 8th, January 9th, a lot of the people saying that 2020 was an undecided election or
fraudulent election on January 7th, 8th, and 9th, they were saying, how dare Donald Trump? You know, this is beyond the pale. This is too far. And
then, what they learned was you don't get re-elected. You don't have a chance in the Republican Party if you hold Donald Trump accountable for
January 6th. And so, they changed the positions they held on January 7th out of political expedience.
Now, this is the kind of character that our political system incentivizes. That's a fault of both the system and those politicians, which leads to the
second point and sort of the -- one of the major arguments in the book. This is why black Americans have always insisted on a strong federal
government enforcement of civil rights, because if you leave it to the goodwill of our representative or of our representatives or elected
officials, you will be disappointed every time.
When the folks who founded this country said, we don't have to worry about a Republic or the Electoral College or all these things because the people
that staff them are going to be patriots who are going to put justice and equality first and not put their partisan and faction leanings first, and
they were wrong. They were wrong then and they're wrong today.
MARTIN: So, let's talk a little bit about the current sort of political moment. One of the things that's interesting that we see and, you know,
we'll find out soon enough whether this sort of pattern holds, but you do see increasing numbers of African American men and Latino men seeming to be
drawn to the Republican Party and to Donald Trump in particular. Why do you think that is?
JOHNSON: Yes, I've got a few reasons for this. The first one is between '68 and 2004, Republicans averaged about 11 or 12 percent of the black vote
in presidential elections. And then, Barack Obama came along. And in 2008, Republicans get 4 percent. In 2012, they get 6 percent, about the same 6, 7
percent in 2016, and then about 8 percent in 2020.
So, in between 2008 and 2020, it's gone from 4 percent of black voters, truth (ph) in Republican candidate to eight. So, it's double. That makes it
seem like, wow, Republicans are making inroads, when in actuality, Barack Obama has left the stage. So, that's one reason why we're seeing a little
bit of an increase. Black Republicans who didn't want to vote against the black guy have sort of returned back to their voting habits pre-Obama.
Here's a wrinkle that I think is new. It isn't the same folks returning, it is younger folks coming. And I think it's mostly younger black men. And the
question is why. Some of that is because Trump presents is very hyper masculine, not in his sort of appearance or in his energy or vigor, but he
presents as untouchable.
The man has 34 felony convention convictions and may be president-elect in a month. There's something very masculine about doing whatever you want and
having no comeuppance, paying no penalty for it. And so, if you take young black men who have been told the police route to get you, the democracy is
unfair, the system is unfair, this idea that you can do what it takes to get forward and not be held accountable or that no one's coming to get you
can be appealing. It's hyper masculine and it's untouchableness. And so, that's some of it.
The other part of it, and I think this is -- we're going to have to watch this. I'm Gen X. That means my parents were born during Jim Crow and my
grandparents were also born during Jim Crow. That meant in my generation, your grandparent was probably in the deep south under Jim Crow. For a Gen
Z, their grandparent may be in Harlem or in Los Angeles or in Chicago, and that is a generation removed both from the south and from the civil rights
movement.
And I bring this up because a lot of black political -- sort of political science around black voting behavior talks about this idea of linked fate
that we're all in this together, and a lot of that stems from this very shared common experience that our grandparents or parents had. And now,
that we're a generation or two removed from that shared experience, the idea that that kind of solidarity will be enough to hold black people
together in the same party at a 90-10 clip, I think is outdated.
[13:50:00]
MARTIN: The other thing that you hear is that some of younger voters just think that the Democrats haven't delivered. They just haven't delivered.
And that they haven't delivered on, you know, at least sort of Trump in his idiosyncratic, you know, sort of individualistic way has delivered or at
least he likes to tell you that he's delivered.
Does the fact of the change at the top of the Democratic ticket help or hurt in any way? I mean, does Kamala Harris, as the nominee, even with this
foreshortened election period, does that change that dynamic at all?
JOHNSON: Yes, a hundred percent it changes it. So, if -- for black voters that are looking at the Democratic Party and saying what have you done for
me lately? Like the old Janet Jackson song. They're not asking that of Republicans. They're looking at Trump and saying the promise of what
they're -- what they want to do around the economy or immigration or whatever sounds good to me. So, I'm going to take them at their word over
the evidence from say a Biden presidency or an Obama presidency.
But now, you're voting not for Trump against Biden, but for Trump against an, aka from Howard and Kamala Harris. And again, even with the sort of
shifting a small realignment happening in black America, you are still black in America. And if you decide to vote against the candidate, a black
candidate at the top of the ticket that probably 88 to 90 percent of black folks are going to vote for in the upcoming election, you're not just
making a political decision, you're also making a social and cultural kind of choice.
And there's great work out there. My political scientist that shows there's a kind of social constraint that happens when black people are running for
office among black voters. And you don't want to be the dude that walks into the barbershop to say, I voted against Kamala Harris for this dude who
thinks Haitians in Ohio are eating cats and dogs.
MARTIN: Is part of the issue here, though, for black people who've been continually disappointed and disillusioned by the Democratic Party, is that
the Democratic Party isn't perceived as continuing to fight those fights. I mean, like, voting rights, for example, on issues like that? I just wonder
if that's part of, you think, the calculus here.
JOHNSON: So, my sense of it is actually a little bit different. The latest numbers I've seen is about one in five black folks identify as
conservative, about 40, 45 percent identify as moderate, and then about one out of four identify as liberal. And I think for a number of black voters,
and we saw this in the Democratic primary in 2020, they think, the Democratic Party has gone too far left and maybe be -- maybe addressing
concerns beyond race and feeling like they've been left behind despite the fact that they're the party's most loyal base.
And so, if we look at the primaries in 2020, Biden loses in Iowa and New Hampshire, badly loses in Nevada and then shows up in South Carolina. Older
black voters, a little bit more conservative and wins and they rescue his campaign. Same thing black voters in the south did for Bill Clinton in '92.
And so, if those are the folks that are putting these Democrats into the White House, if they think that that president is suddenly going to lurch
far left and accomplish a number of some very, very progressive ideas that they didn't sign up for in the primary, which is why they voted for the
moderate or even establishment candidates in previous primaries, the party has misread black voters. And I think to some extent, maybe particularly in
the rhetoric more than in their policy proposals, that has happened.
So, I think you're seeing more of a more pragmatic black electorate rejecting the leftward lurch of the Democratic Party in some circles and
the rightward, you know, lurch of the Republican Party sort of as a party writ large and are kind of left to sort of make sense of politics given
these two realities.
MARTIN: So, before we let you go, I am wondering of who you want to discover this book, who do you want to read it, and who do you want to take
it to heart?
JACKSON: So, that's a great question. This is as much for black people to sort of -- to say, this is the conversation we've had in a million places,
let's get it on paper and sort of reflect on what it means in this moment, as it is for white audiences who only hear about race on cable news, or in
their echo chambers, or in their sort of preferred social media, you know, curated feeds on -- you know, on these different out platforms, they should
read this book, because this is how you understand racism in America. This is how you understand what black people say when they say the police are
racist or that structural racism is the reason why there's such disparity in the country and see it presented in a way that doesn't demonize the
country and doesn't make black people's victims in the nation's story alone.
[13:55:00]
MARTIN: Ted Johnson, thank you so much for talking with us once again.
JOHNSON: Thank you. Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, tonight, we remember a time when peace in the Middle East seemed within reach. It was on this day in 1994, that
Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, the Israeli prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, and his foreign minister, Shimon Peres, were all awarded the Nobel
Peace Prize for their efforts to bring an end to the conflict between their nations and to implement the two-state solution.
It followed the historic White House handshake that marked the Oslo Accords, but the Nobel decision sparked controversy with the choice of
laureates, particularly Arafat, harshly criticized. While none of the men would live to see their goal achieved, 30 years later the peace is more
needed than ever.
That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
