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Amanpour
Interview with The New York Times Magazine Staff Writer and "Rise and Kill First" Author Ronen Bergman; Interview with Council on Foreign Relations President Emeritus and former U.S. Department Official Richard Haass; Interview with Retired Israeli General Noam Tibon; Interview with Palestinian National Initiative President Mustafa Barghouti. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 17, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
The Hamas leader and mastermind of the October 7th attacks, Yahya Sinwar, is dead. Investigative journalist Ronen Bergman joins me from Tel Aviv with
the latest.
Then, as the war rumbles on, where does this leave ceasefire negotiations between Israel and Hamas? What about the hostages? We get the American
perspective from former top diplomat Richard Haass. And reaction from retired Israeli General Noam Tibon, who rescued his own family on October
7th and hundreds more.
Plus, what does this mean for the future of Hamas and the Palestinians living in Gaza? President of the Palestinian National Initiative, Mustafa
Barghouti, joins me.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. The leader of Hamas is dead. Israel says its forces have killed Yahya Sinwar,
the architect of the October 7th attacks, after its soldiers encountered three terrorists, they say, during a routine operation in Gaza and engaged
them. Only after the battle did they find a body resembling Sinwar's. Israel analyzed the corpse and then confirmed that the DNA did indeed
match.
This is a major development and perhaps even a turning point in Israel's war on Gaza and beyond. Investigative journalist Ronen Bergman joins me now
from Tel Aviv. Ronen, first and foremost, I want to know what is the reaction amongst Israelis right now? How is it being received?
RONEN BERGMAN, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE AND AUTHOR, "RISE AND KILL FIRST": Well, I think that many Israelis, at least these who I
spoke with, are happy, but also concerned. Happy that the person who masterminded a massacre of October 7 is dead. And this is something that
they have expected, that looked for for a long time.
But also, I think many Israelis, that includes leaders in the military and the intelligence community are very much concerned of two things, one, that
this will not bring an end to the war. And second, that this will still not solve the fate of the 100 hostages dead and alive that are still held by
Hamas in Gaza.
And these concerns, Christiane, are not just about what Hamas will do. I think even more, these concerns are directed to the government of Israel
and to the prime minister of Israel, that they are afraid we'll not see even this as a sort of symbolic act of winning and continue forward.
AMANPOUR: Can -- Ronen, can we just go back a little bit before talking about the future? Describe to us, because this news has been sort of
trickling out, and everybody's on the edge of their seats waiting for it to have been confirmed. So, it's called by the IDF a routine operation. They
encountered, they say, three terrorists. Can you give us more about the operation?
BERGMAN: Yes. So, it's long time that Israeli intelligence suspected that Yahya Sinwar and maybe other senior officials of the Qassam Brigade, the
military brigade of Hamas, are hiding in Southern Gaza. And they have tried to kill him and others many times. There were even some rumors that he was
killed in Southern Gaza the 25th of August. All proved to be wrong.
But these areas in Southern Gaza are extensively patrolled by ground forces of the IDF. One of these forces early -- late Wednesday detected what they
thought are three Hamas terrorist and started exchange of fire. Then they called artillery and drones to drop bombs on the locations where these
three were identified. And when they approached, they discovered two bodies, as far as I understand, the third one yet to be found, or maybe
escaped.
[13:05:00]
And when they approach one of the bodies with drones, so drones hovering in with cameras, they saw someone who looks strikingly similar to the leader
of Hamas. And this is when they started to run tests and checks to see whether he is.
Now, in principle, he was found with other Hamas officials or in the vicinity of other commercial facility, including the one that he was killed
with, that he was supposed to be according to intelligence. There was a lot of Israeli money along the body, sophisticated rifles, counterfeit --
original records, I.D. and passports in a way it all matched. And then, there was some initial identification of the dental records, but I think
everybody, the Israeli intelligence, are still waiting for the final DNA sample test that was sent to -- back to laboratory in Israel. This is still
being examined.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, as we, though, have been told by the IDF, the foreign minister, that it is absolutely confirmed. And the U.S. has been told that
it's been confirmed. Just for people who might not understand how Israel would know and check, obviously, because Sinwar was in Israel jails for
about two decades, right? They would have his DNA, his teeth pictures, and x-rays, and all the rest of it.
BERGMAN: Yes. They have all of these, the dental record, the fingerprints, which could be also examined back in Gaza. They don't need to fly the body
or the fingerprints over. They have the online database and the DNA all taken when -- from the time he was a prisoner, he was released in the
Shalit deal in 2011. So, this could be easily matched and identified.
AMANPOUR: And I want to ask you a question because people want to know who are the other two or one other body there? Some Americans have said and
others, and I think even you know, Qatari -- anyway, people have been saying that if the successor is Yahya Sinwar's brother, Mohammed then,
quote/unquote, we're screwed, because he apparently is no touchy-feely kind of guy in terms of ceasefires. And it might even be worse. And certainly,
hostage deals. What do you know about that?
BERGMAN: So, the brother, Mohammed Sinwar, is considered to be even more extreme, more rogue as much as someone can be more extreme or rogue than
Yahya. He was not in the vicinity where the alleged Sinwar was killed. He is believed to be somewhere else in Southern Gaza. And it is assessed by
Israeli intelligence that he will be the successor.
The late Sinwar was holding two hands. He was the leader of Hamas in Gaza, but also, he replaced Ismail Haniyeh as the political leader, the head of
the political bureau of Hamas. These two hands, if given to Mohammed Sinwar, I think in the coming future, we should expect a more hard line
from Hamas and not something that would get us anywhere close to the final ceasefire and exchange of hostages. This is even before I speak about the
expected positions from Israeli prime minister.
AMANPOUR: And we are going to hear from the Israeli prime minister. But I want to ask you, again, because all Israeli families and friends of the
hostages, that's their main demand to have their people back. A Qatari -- the Qatari prime minister has told reporters in Brussels this week,
basically, in the last three to four weeks, there's been no conversation or engagement at all. And we're just moving in the same circle with silence
from all parties. So, Qatar, who's been brokering and hosting a lot of these ceasefire talks.
What more can you tell us about what might happen if this is the case, Yahya Sinwar gone or not?
BERGMAN: So, maybe this will be the opening of yet another round of talks because everything is completely stuck. Hamas has given its final answer on
July 3rd and then Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli prime minister, in what was called the clarification letter, just loaded more obstacles and more new
terms, some of them already given up by Israel. And then, Hamas loaded new terms. So, it's -- this road is nowhere to be sold.
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Maybe now, with the killing of Yahya Sinwar there could be a new opening. There are some ideas that the Israeli leadership to maybe offer a ceasefire
in exchange for hostages, maybe some immunity. If someone gives the hostage back. This is yet to be seen and decided. But it's a watershed moment yet
to be seen what kind of direction Hamas will take.
One concern, big concern of Israelis, of Israeli officials, is that now with no direct control of the late Yahya Sinwar, maybe the teams guarding
the hostages will have less command-and-control system and will, you know, have their own opinion on how to continue, not just them, but also all of
Hamas forces. This could lead to defragmentation of the organization, which does not necessarily mean good news.
AMANPOUR: You know, I can read between your lines and it's very, very scary to hear what you're saying right now. You know, apparently, as you
say, they were encountered in a building above ground. And we've been told that Sinwar and his types have been underground this whole time.
Tell us a little bit about what -- how you think, or how you know they lived this last year, Sinwar and his henchmen?
BERGMAN: Yes. So, as we've published, some colleagues and myself in The New York Times, the living underground, and I have visited numerous tunnels
that were discovered by the IDF under Gaza, it's very hard. And the Hamas militants, as well as Hamas leaders, had a plan of going above ground from
time to breathe air, to be regular atmosphere. It's very humid down there. And they had the plan of popping up in areas where they had previous alert
that the IDF is not present.
What could have happened now -- and this was a totally coincidental exchange of fire. The force didn't know that they are there. They didn't
know the force -- I think there could be a mistake of them coming out of the subterranean network, thinking that this is clear of what they see as
enemies forces and then just bumping into that force that soon brought drones to drop bombs and artillery of that building and being killed.
AMANPOUR: It's an incredible story and many developments ahead. Ronen Bergman, thank you very much indeed.
Now, President Biden was briefed on the situation on his way to Berlin by his national security adviser, Jake Sullivan. The United States has hoped
such a development would give the Israeli prime minister an exit ramp in Gaza.
So, let go now to Richard Haass. He's the former senior State Department official and president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations.
Richard Haass, welcome back to the program. What is your -- you've probably heard Ronen Bergman and all the pluses and worries about this development.
What is your initial reaction to the impact of the killing and the elimination of Yahya Sinwar?
RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT EMERITUS, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS AND FORMER U.S. DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, what Ronen said, as you yourself heard,
was quite sober, because you could have a leadership change, if possible, for the worse, or at least more of the same, or you could have a leadership
vacuum where there's no one to negotiate with.
But I think from the Israeli side now, there's some big decisions to make. Is this something now that creates an opportunity, if you will, for the
small ceasefire, not a permanent one, but something that would allow perhaps more food to go in, for the people of Gaza and obviously, to get
the Israeli hostages out? A bigger thing, could this lead the way to the kind of aftermath that we've been talking about for over a year now, but
nothing's really been put on the table?
We want to get an Arab stabilization force into Gaza to provide security, to provide a framework for some new governance. Might this be a moment
where the Israelis can essentially declare victory and say, OK, now, we're prepared to turn the page or open a new chapter and begin a conversation
with Palestinians about what might come next? Or, in some ways, similar, Christiane, to the conversation the Israelis are having in Lebanon, do they
see this as a tactical advance, which it is, and do they decide to double down and say, OK, we're making progress against Hamas, we've now weakened
the leadership, now, let's press our advantage? So, I think the Israelis have some very big decisions to make.
AMANPOUR: So, that's interesting because certainly the United States, I mean, surprisingly, frankly, and unusually put out two incredibly tough
demands to the Israeli government this week regarding allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza, especially into the north, or reconsider the rules of
engagement for U.S. sending weapons to foreign states.
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So, it was the first time we'd heard that kind of direct -- you know, direct sort of dealing about that. But what do you think, from what you've
been watching, the Israeli IDF been doing in Gaza, before the killing of Sinwar? They have been trying to isolate the north, and what -- how do you
read all of that?
HAASS: Yes. I was frankly so much surprised. It's not the first time I've been surprised over the last year with what's happened. I thought the
Israelis had essentially, you know, come to the position where they were running low on targets in the north and other than opportunities, for
example, to go after Sinwar, they were going to focus mostly either on what they were doing in the north against Hezbollah or preparing for the
retaliation against Iran.
So, I've been somewhat surprised by the intent, the continuing intensity of Israeli military operations in Gaza. I assumed it was because -- but the
assumptions are dangerous, I grant that, that -- because one was seeing the revival of Hamas in certain spaces that the Israelis thought had been
cleared. There's also other reports of, you know, some in Israel have different plans or ambitions for Gaza to make large areas of it, either
demilitarize or even open it up to Israeli settlement.
But it didn't make sense to me, quite honestly, in the context of what the Israelis were doing in the north and preparing to do against Iran.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, I guess we'll have to wait and see what that's about. But, again, I had Amos Yadlin on, he's a retired general and he has been
head of the defense intelligence, et cetera. And he said to me, when I asked him about the big picture, this was earlier this week, he said, with
due respect, Gaza is pretty much taken care of and is number three on our agenda. It is Lebanon and Iran or Iran and Lebanon, however he stacked them
up.
So, how do you see -- what do you make of that kind of declaration, first and foremost?
HAASS: That's exactly what I was trying to say, that Israel was essentially running out of targets in Gaza. It had reduced a lot of it to
rubble. Other than getting some of the leadership, it wasn't clear to me what more military operations would really accomplish, that they had these
two other venues, Lebanon and Iran, to focus on, and circling back to where we began the conversation. So, that even makes this now decisions that much
more stark.
OK. So, you've had another tactical advance in Gaza. You've gotten rid of the existing leadership, what now? What is your definition of victory here?
Is it to continue to degrade Hamas or is it to get an Arab stabilization force in? Is it to get the hostages out?
I think what this does is, once again, it puts in front of this Israeli government some first order strategic decisions, essentially, how are they
defining victory? What are their priorities at this point?
AMANPOUR: Well, OK. So, interestingly, one of your former colleagues, Dennis Ross, who -- the former Middle East negotiator, was on X today
saying, with the Hamas leaders in Gaza gone, Israel should say it'll end the war provided the hostages are released.
So, that's one thing. And just earlier, he had said -- a couple of weeks ago, you know, the pagers, the killing of Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah,
et cetera, was all, you know, good military and intelligence victories. But where is the plan? Where's the political plan? And that he wanted to see a
political strategy laid out. Do you see any political strategy?
HAASS: Short answer is no. And I don't see it vis-a-vis Hezbollah in the north. Once again, is it simply to try to get a situation a ceasefire so
that 60,000 to 70,000 Israelis can go back to their homes in Northern Israel or is it to try to do more? Are the Israelis really trying to get
rid of Hezbollah once and for all? Is that even achievable? I have, to put it mildly, profound doubts.
Now, in Gaza, similar first order questions. What are the Israelis trying to accomplish? Is it to get the hostages out? Is it to get an Arab force in
there? More and more military operations may somewhat degrade Hamas even more, but it's not going to eliminate it. And the process of killing people
also, you know, creates more recruits.
So, again, this is a moment to think strategically. Tactics added to tactics added to tactics don't add up to a strategy, and that's what's been
missing from the get-go, whether it's in the north or for the last year in Gaza, it's as if at times, you know, books like "On War" by Clausewitz
never translated into Hebrew. I just don't quite understand what the Israeli thinking is about where they want this all to lead.
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AMANPOUR: OK. So, to play devil's advocate, I would quote you some of the Israeli officials, including the U.K. based ambassador and a lot of Prime
Minister Netanyahu's extreme right flank say that strategy is to remake the Middle East. To end once and for all what they call the ring of fire around
Israel. And that's why they say Iran is the head of the octopus and that has to be decapitated.
So, your view on what you think Israel will do, because it's bound to respond eventually, sooner rather than later probably, it's obviously
feeling successful and empowered, Sinwar is gone, Nasrallah's gone, et cetera What do you foresee as the result or the impact of a strike on Iran?
HAASS: Well, you know, so much of a strike -- the impact of a strike on Iran depends upon that scale and the target set. I've been advocating the
Israelis focus on sites with that either produce or store things like missiles or drones rather than expanding the confrontation.
Iran's still sitting on close to, what, 3,000 ballistic missiles. That's far more than Israel can handle, even with American help. I'm not sure a
much larger war with Iran serves anyone's interest right now. So, I would - - you know, I would hope the Israelis would think about that.
But let me make a more basic point, Christiane. Israel has had military advances, both in the north as well as in Gaza. But war is not simply a
military undertaking. There has got to be a political component of what you are doing. You can't simply sideline Hamas through attacking them. You've
got to allow the emergence of another political entity that Palestinians can rally around.
And that's what I see missing from Israeli strategy. You can't -- you're not going to create a situation where you're not going to have armed
Palestinian resistance, including the West Bank, simply by reducing Iranian support for Palestinians. There will also be indigenous support and
opposition to Israel coming from Palestinians in both Gaza and Hamas. Again, it calls out for a political dimension of Israeli foreign policy to
coexist with what they do in the military realm.
AMANPOUR: So, finally, there's obviously a U.S. election on the doorstep. What would you advise -- what should the U.S. do right now in terms of
advising the Israeli government? What should be its posture now?
HAASS: I would say, you know, let's take three venues very quickly. In the north, I would work for a ceasefire so Israelis can return home to their --
in the north of Israel. So, these 60,000 or 70,000 Israelis can resume a life. I would try to get a deal in Gaza to get the hostages out, to get a
ceasefire, and I would press Israel as hard as one could, publicly and privately, to introduce a political component, to lay out some type of
trajectory for the Palestinians to at least realize some of their ambitions. I would press Israel for a narrow military response for the
moment against Iran.
Not to me -- again, it doesn't solve the Middle East. The Middle East I don't think is a problem to be solved, and I get nervous when I hear people
talking about regime change and other such things. Middle East is a situation to be managed, and I would press the Israelis to avoid
overreaching, to think that they can solve a part of the world that I believe resists solution.
AMANPOUR: Richard Haass, thank you so much for that expert analysis.
Now, who really is Yahya Sinwar, Israel's mortal enemy? Back in June, I spoke with Yuval Bitton, who worked in Israel's prison service and knew
Sinwar better than most. Bitton had rare access, spending hundreds of hours with the top Hamas leader while he was imprisoned. And even saved his life
when he was a prison doctor 20 years ago. This is what he told me when I asked how it happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YUVAL BITTON, FORMER HEAD OF INTELLIGENCE, ISRAELI PRISON SERVICE (through translator): In 2004, I saved Sinwar's life in prison. I was the doctor
who diagnosed the problem he had. When he explained to me what was happening to him, I diagnosed it as a stroke, and together with a general
practitioner, we decided to take him to the hospital. He arrived at the hospital. The diagnosis was that he had abscess in the brain, and he was
operated on that day, thus saving his life. Because if it had exploded, he would have died.
He thanked me and the doctors for saving his life, and he also asked the security officer, who was a Muslim, when we visited him in the hospital, to
tell me in Arabic and explain to me what it means for someone to save a Muslim's life and that he owed me his life. He also told me that on the day
he was released in the Gilad Shalit deal in 2011, that he owed me his life, and one day he will repay it.
[13:25:00]
And as you understand, he repaid it on October 7th, and that he was also directly responsible for the murder of my nephew in Kibbutz Nir Oz.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you what you learned about Sinwar and Hamas in jail.
BITTON (through translator): I had many hours, hundreds of hours of conversation with Sinwar, both as a dentist and as an intelligence officer.
AMANPOUR: What impression did you get of his plans, of his goals?
BITTON (through translator): It was clear to me that Sinwar reflects the Hamas Gaza worldview. Sinwar told me clearly, in 2004, that they would be
ready to sign a Hudna, a truce, for 20 years because the State of Israel is currently a strong state. But he also told me that in 20 years he estimates
that we will be weakened because of internal struggles between us, within Israeli society. And as soon as they recognize that we are weak, they will
attack us.
And they also said clearly that we, as Jews, have no place on these lands, on the lands on which the State of Israel is located. These are Waqf lands.
These are Muslim lands. These are lands that do not belong to us. Therefore, we as Jews have no right to exist on the lands. Therefore, there
is no compromise.
AMANPOUR: When you think about his mental state now, and who he is, the person you know, what do you think he's thinking about ceasefire, about
anything, about releasing the hostages that still remain?
BITTON (through translator): Since the day the IDF entered the Gaza Strip, his priority is to maintain his rule. He put the issue of releasing the
prisoners as a second priority. Now, the first priority is to maintain Hamas' rule. The condition for releasing the hostages will only be the
IDF's withdrawal from Gaza and the end of the war.
The hostages are being used to achieve his goals. Unfortunately, Israel made a mistake during its military operation, and in its thinking that only
military pressure would bring the release of hostages, which I said in the first month of the war, I thought a military effort was important in order
to dismantle Hamas, destroy it, and to hurt its military capabilities.
It's an important effort, but in order to return the hostages, it's not enough. Because Sinwar thinks only about the continuity of his rule. He is
going to sacrifice even 100,000 Palestinians in order to ensure the survival of his rule. He is willing to pay with the lives of militants,
Hamas members, civilians. He doesn't care.
And therefore, Israel's mistake is that it did not create an alternative to Hamas' rule, and didn't replace Hamas' rule, and didn't allow an improved
version of the Fatah or Palestinian Authority forces to enter in order to make clear to Sinwar that he has lost everything, both his military
capability, but mostly his authority in Gaza. That would have caused Sinwar to make a deal to return our hostages in exchange for prisoners.
Today, he feels he is in a powerful position. He is running the negotiations while still operating from within Gaza and still controls the
areas from which the IDF evacuated He also controls the humanitarian aid, and therefore, he feels strong, and won't sign an agreement to release the
hostages unless the IDF withdraws from Gaza and the fighting ends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: He's now dead. But as Yuval Bitton asked all those questions, they still exist. They are still relevant, those questions, about what
happens next. But let's turn now to the retired Israeli Major General Noam Tibon, who on October 7th, when the Israeli army struggled to respond,
picked up his own pistol and drove straight into the fire to save his family.
Noam Tibon, welcome from Jerusalem. So, of course, this is personal for you and also national for you. I just described briefly what you did on October
7th, and saved hundreds of others as well as your own family. So, you know, just tell me what you're thinking today when you see the mastermind of
those massacres' dead.
NOAM TIBON, RETIRED ISRAELI GENERAL: Hello. What I really feel is justice. Justice has been made. Because Yahya Sinwar, a crazy psychopath, which
basically was the architect and gave the order to kill, to slaughter, to rape innocent Israelis.
[13:30:00]
And I think that this was very important. It's not a revenge. It's justice. And this is what I felt. And basically, what I feel right now is we have a
golden opportunity really to change and move forward regard to a hostages deal with the people of Gaza, because Sinwar, before he died, he saw what
happened to Gaza, how Gaza destroyed completely. And now, we have an opportunity, and this is becoming the main effort of Israel to bring the
hostages back home in a deal.
And victory will be only when the hostages will be back home and all the people in the kibbutzim that suffered so much in October 7 will go back
home safely, include my small family, my son and my granddaughter.
AMANPOUR: What would you like to see your government do now? We've heard from a lot of our distinguished guests tonight about needing a plan, a
proper plan, a strategy, not just successful tactics, to, A, bring back the hostages, as you say, and try to solve the situation? What would you like
your government to do now?
TIBON: As you know, I'm criticizing this government from October 7, because they are responsible to the failure, and basically, Benjamin
Netanyahu is also responsible to this ongoing hostages' huge moral strategic problem to the State of Israel.
And the main problem that -- according to this long war, basically, Netanyahu was relying too much on his crazy partners, Ben-Gvir and
Smotrich, which took him to the very extreme position. And I believe right now, what we need to do is to create a strategy to talk to the people of
Gaza and to -- just like we went to an offensive military action, to go to an offensive political action in order to solve the problem in Gaza, to
bring the hostages back home, not to wait to the Hamas, not to wait to a Sinwar brother or anyone else, to take the initiative, just like we did on
the ground, to take the political initiative, talk to the people of Gaza, go to Qatar, go to Egypt, and create a stage to bring the hostages back
home, create a stage to replace Hamas government in Gaza, and basically to achieve the war.
But you have to do it right now, because what we learned from Nasrallah is basically when time is going on, you are losing the momentum, you are
losing the effect of this keeling of the head. And that's why we need to move very fast in order to achieve and save the hostages life.
AMANPOUR: Your own son, Amir, who you obviously rescued, says he moved down to the south, to the kibbutz there, to create a community with the
Palestinians in Gaza. And I wonder whether you -- you've just talked about it and what has to happen. I wonder whether you think it will happen and
your son, who is a journalist, he said, the State of Israel is in terrible danger that if Israelis don't fight to keep the country democratic properly
managed, it actually may not survive.
Just within, much less from what's happening from without. This is a crucial moment.
TIBON: I totally agree. And of course, I'm very proud of my son Amir. He wrote this beautiful book, "The Gates of Gaza," which I believe it's very
important to read in order to understand the nature of the life on the border, not only what happened in October 7. But basically, what I believe
is, number one, we have four legs to our national security. Strong military force, strong economy, strong democracy, and special relationship with the
United States of America. And we need to work on all those four legs. Include our democracy.
And yes, we went through a terrible crisis on October 7th. It was a huge failure. We create deterrence. I'm so proud of our soldiers on the ground.
And by the way, young soldiers killed Sinwar, which is great in my eyes.
[13:35:00]
But right now, what we need is not to continue this war, but to try to change the reality. To finish the war in Gaza, to bring the hostages back
home, to finish the war in Lebanon, and to create a real security to the people in the north. And yes, to start to rebuild and take care of our
internal problems and bring Israel back to the place which is a strong, proud democracy here in the Middle East.
AMANPOUR: And I just want to end by asking you to take us back to that day, October 7th, because you were getting texts and you didn't -- you
couldn't believe that actually the military wasn't down there in the south already, you know, helping on October 7th. And you went with your wife
driving the car. Tell me about that.
TIBON: You know, on that day I was working according to my instinct as a father and a grandfather, And according to my values, and I use all my
knowledge as a soldier and as a general to achieve my mission. And my mission was to rescue my family. Because the failure was so big, and
because basically the whole area was occupied by Hamas, it become a real, you know, battle on every point, on every meter. And if there is something
which I'm so proud that, on that day, according to my values, I rescue people from the Nova festival. I rescue wounded soldiers.
And of course, I rescue all the people of Kibbutz Nahal Oz that stayed alive. And yes, I was very proud to fight with young soldiers of Maglan
unit and Sayeret Givati on Kibbutz Nahal Oz.
But yes, victory will be only when the people of Nahal Oz will go back home with the two hostages that they still have from Kibbutz Nahal Oz in the
hand of the Hamas and they will feel completely secure. My granddaughters will go to the kindergarten and they can live normal life near Gaza where
there is no military Hamas in Gaza that can threaten them on a daily basis.
And I believe, today, we made a step forward and we need to move fast on the political channel in order to achieve these main goals of the world.
AMANPOUR: So, many of your compatriots and so many of your allies around the world in the United States agree with you, that the political track
needs to be fast tracked. And so, far there isn't any evidence of that. Maybe we'll hear from the prime minister in the aftermath of the
elimination of Yahya Sinwar. Noam Tibon, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
Now, how did Yahya Sinwar rise to the top of one of the world's most notorious militant and terrorist organizations? Nic Robertson reports.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): Feared and fettered at home in Gaza. Universally reviled by Israelis. Yahya Sinwar
became the Jewish state's enemy number one for his leading role in Hamas' brutal October 7th slaughter of almost 1,200 people in Israel, triggering
Israel's killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians.
The IDF dubbed him a dead man walking, but university educated Sinwar persistently outsmarted his enemies.
EHUD YAARI, ISRAELI JOURNALIST: When I was talking to him, he always insisted that we speak Hebrew and not Arabic.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Israeli journalist Ehud Yaari interviewed Sinwar four times during the terror leader's 22 years in Israeli jail.
Yaari saw Sinwar's rise to prison leader, but learned no secrets.
YAARI: He's charismatic. He's shrewd. It's very cunning. Palestinian Esmat Mansour spent years in jail with the man who would become Hamas' Gaza
leader.
ESMAT MANSOUR, FORMER PALESTINIAN PRISONER (through translator): He constantly follows the security changes and developments in the Israeli
security structure.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Sinwar's entry to Hamas was through internal security, convicted of playing a role in the killing of two Israelis and
four suspect Palestinian informants.
[13:40:00]
MANSOUR (through translator): He's also a cruel person. Not --
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: -- is being played by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Thousands of Israelis and kidnapped hundreds of our citizens was eliminated today by
our heroic soldiers. And today, as we promised to do, we came to account with him.
Today, evil has suffered a heavy blow, but the task before us is not yet complete. To the dear families of the hostages, I say, this is an important
moment in the war. We will continue with all our strength until the return home of all of your loved ones of Israelis and kidnapped hundreds of our
citizen was eliminated today by our heroic soldiers. And today, as we promised to do, we came to account with him.
Today, evil has suffered a heavy blow, but the task before us is not yet complete. To the dear families of the hostages I say, this is an important
moment in the war. We will continue with all our strength until the return home of all of your loved ones, who are our loved ones. This is our highest
commitment. This is my highest commitment. And to the resident of Gaza, I say, Sinwar ruined your life. He told you he was a lion, but in reality, he
was hiding on a dark den and he was killed when he fled in a panic from our soldiers.
His elimination is an important landmark in the decline of the evil rule of Hamas. I would like to say again, in the clearest way, Hamas will no longer
rule Gaza. This is the beginning of the day after Hamas. And this is an opportunity for you, the resident of Gaza, to finally break free from its
tyranny.
I call on everyone who hold our hostages -- I call on whoever lays down his weapon and return our hostages, we will allow him to go out and leave. And
in the same way I say, whoever harm our hostages, blood on his head, we will reckon with him.
The return of our hostages is an opportunity to achieve all our goals, and it brings the end of the war closer. To the people of the regions, I say,
in Gaza, in Beirut, throughout the entire region, the darkness recedes and the light rises. Deif, Haniyeh, Sinwar, Nasrallah, Mohsen, Aqil, and many
of their associates.
I'm calling you, people of the region. We have a great opportunity to stop the axis of evil and create a different future, a future of peace, a future
of prosperity in the entire region. Together, we can repel the curse and promote the blessing.
Now, it is clear to everyone in Israel and in the world why we insisted on not ending the war, why we did insist, in the face of all the pressures, to
enter Rafah, to 45 stronghold of Hamas, where Sinwar and many of the murderers hid.
I would like to express my deep appreciation to the IDF and Shin Bet fighters and their commanders for their determined and courageous action.
There are none better than them.
Today, we clarified again what happened to those who hurt us. Today, we once again showed the world a victory of good over evil. But the war, my
dears, is not over yet. And it is difficult and it exacts heavy prizes from us.
I wish to express my condolences from the bottom of my heart to the families who lost their loved ones. I want to hug the families of our
fallen heroes. Their supreme sacrifice, including the last few days, brings us closer to victory. As King David said, I will pursue my enemies and
destroy them, and I will not return to their end.
Citizens of Israel, we are in the resurrection war. Big challengers are still ahead of us. We are required for long patience, for the unity of the
ranks, for courage, for a firm stand. Together we will fight, and with God's help, together we will win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A gratified and still defiant Israeli prime minister, saying crucially that the war does not end, and painting a picture of all these
terrorist leaders, as he calls them, who've been eliminated and perhaps gives a new opportunity and a new chapter to the people of Gaza, he said,
the people of Lebanon, and he included the wider region.
So, now, crucially, what does this mean for Palestinians, the civilians in Gaza, who've been under relentless fire for more than a year? Tens of
thousands are dead. Let's hear from Mustafa Barghouti, the president of the Palestinian National Initiative, who's joining me from Ramallah now, in the
occupied West Bank.
[13:45:00]
Mr. Barghouti, welcome back to our program. This is quite a momentous day in the prosecution of this war over the last year. Before I ask you to
react to Netanyahu, I want to know what you, as a Palestinian, feel might be the impact of the elimination of Yahya Sinwar.
MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE: Well, I'm afraid that what happened is not really compatible with what the Israeli
side is saying. I think they were looking for a photo of victory or an image of victory, but Sinwar gave them a different image. And the fact that
they distributed the images of his body, which is something that is unacceptable, by all terms, has revealed that he was fighting.
He was not hiding in a tunnel, as Netanyahu claimed. He was not hiding behind Palestinian civilians, taking them as human shields, as Israeli
propaganda used to say. He was not hiding behind Israeli prisoners or captives, as they also claimed. He was fighting. And this image will make
him look like a hero for most Palestinians and most Arabs and most people who are against Israeli occupation and against the oppression that
Palestinians are subjected to.
So, in my opinion, Sinwar, one more time, has failed the Israelis. He has failed their intelligence. They couldn't get to him. He -- not only on the
7th of October, but during the whole last year, they admit that. And he fought. He fought. He was courageous, and he was not a coward, as they
claim.
But the big question here is, after the death of Sinwar, will this push for ending this terrible war? Will this force Netanyahu to accept a ceasefire?
I doubt it. Because, in my opinion, Netanyahu doesn't care about the Israelis hostages, as he claimed. He doesn't care about their lives. All he
wants is to expand this war, and he's substituting an occupation in the West Bank by enlarging it and making it an occupation of West Bank, of Gaza
Strip, of big parts of Lebanon, as he hopes. And he wants to drag the whole region into a terrible regional war, hoping even to drag the United States
into a war with Iran.
So, the death of Sinwar, if it is true, will, in my opinion, expose Netanyahu even further as a person who doesn't want to end this terrible
situation. And let me tell you quickly that today, at this very moment, the people of Gaza are suffering horribly.
The north of Gaza is without water, without food for 13 days. They are under terrible siege. They are bombarded constantly. Civilians are dying
around the clock. People were burned to death in most recent Israeli strikes in an area which is a hospital. So, the public of Gaza is
suffering. 150,000 is the number of Palestinians killed or injured since the 7th of October.
And this atrocity, this massacre must stop. And it will not stop unless the United States of America forces Netanyahu and Israel to stop.
AMANPOUR: Mustafa Barghouti, I know that you are, you know, obviously pointing out the terrible suffering also of the people of Gaza, the
Palestinians, tens of thousands. I'm assuming you feel you have to defend Sinwar, although, I don't understand why, because Hamas is against you and
against what you stand for. And nobody can really know what Sinwar was doing. Certainly, Ronen Bergman says that he was probably coming up, as
they know, for air, for oxygen, and was caught with, you know, his defenses down, so to speak.
But nonetheless, what I want to know is, do you believe that -- do you -- I mean, we've heard from people from Gaza in the last few hours, it's been
reported, that some of them are glad that he's gone because they believe that he brought down the horrendous rain of bombs and fire on them for the
last year. Some of them are not glad because they think, you know, he's the only so-called resistance leader. But those who are glad, don't you think
they have the right to be glad and to hope for something else? Because nothing was going well for them while Sinwar was in charge.
BARGHOUTI: Christiane, I don't defend Sinwar. I defend Palestinian people. I defend the right of the Palestinian people to be free. And had we have --
if we did not have the Israeli occupation, if I didn't grow up all my life under Israeli occupation, you wouldn't have seen Sinwar or Hamas.
[13:50:00]
If Israel stopped its occupation and ended the system of settler colonialism and stopped the atrocities, including the ethnic cleansing of
more than 70 percent of the Palestinian people since 1948, we wouldn't be in this situation.
So, if you ask me, I would tell you the last thing that anybody should do is to blame the victim. And the last thing that one should do is not to see
us Palestinians as equal human beings. If a Jewish life is precious, a Palestinian life also should be precious. And if it is not acceptable to
kill an Israeli child, it is absolutely unacceptable also to kill 17,000 Palestinian children.
No, I don't think that the people will look at Sinwar in the way that is described and probably from Israeli media outlets. I think they will
perceive him as a hero who fought. And I am not defending him here as much as I am stating to you the facts, that everybody should understand and
know. And the reality is that Palestinian resistance is there because we are oppressed, under occupation, deprived of our life, deprived of our
freedom, deprived of our right to be prosper and have peace.
We've struggled all our life, whether we struggle in a peaceful way or in other ways, we are always oppressed, and that's what the world must
understand. The reality is that 7th of October, and I repeat, was not a cause, it was a result, an outcome, of endless occupation, of settler
colonialism, of oppression, and of a system of ethnic cleansing.
AMANPOUR: Mustafa Barghouti, I believe everybody believes that no Israeli or no Palestinian child deserves to be killed. I think the whole world has
reacted to what they've seen over this last year, all over this horrible, horrible war that started October 7th.
But I want to know from you, because as you heard, Noam Biton, he also believes there needs to be work to rebuild or build proper relations in
fairness and justice with the Palestinians. That's been your life's work as well. Do you believe that there is any window now for some kind of
rebooting of a political situation? You certainly have the United States on your side. You have Europe. You have all the people who believe in a two-
state solution, in justice, security, dignity for all.
BARGHOUTI: I believe there can be a window if all those, including the United States administration, who speak about two-state solution will
combine that with saying that the Israeli military occupation of Palestinian land would end and that all illegal settlements, according to
international law and even according to American policy will be removed out of the occupied territories rather than building new settlements now in
Gaza.
And finally, that they would recognize the State of Palestine. If these three things happen, we will believe those who speak about two-state
solution. If they don't say that, then it's just a hypocrisy. Giving Israel time, more time, to continue to the occupation and continue settlement
building and continue what Netanyahu is doing, which is killing any opportunity for peace or for two-state solution.
I think we can get to peace. But now, at this very moment, I don't think I have to be fair and honest with you, as I try always to be, under
Netanyahu's government and his fascist ministers like Smotrich and Ben- Gvir, there will be no opening to a window of peace.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you --
BARGHOUTI: This government has to be removed.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, though, what about, is it time to finally admit that people like Sinwar, who were public and went on record, and other
Hamas leaders saying that our fight needs the deaths or the sacrifice of hundreds or thousands or whatever of our Palestinians, that is our fight,
they have to pay the price? Are you ready to say that just hasn't worked? It just hasn't worked?
BARGHOUTI: I'm ready to tell you that I believe that eventually peace is possible. I believe that, of course, one act of violence leads to another
act of violence. Of course, we understand that. But also, I must say that even Hamas was ready to accept a compromise, even Hamas was ready to accept
a Palestinian State on 1967 borders, and all of that was ignored.
[13:55:00]
And I want to say that in this particular case, it wasn't the Palestinian side that obstructed the ceasefire. It was Netanyahu, and the proof will be
in front of you in the coming days, because now Sinwar, as they say, is killed. Now, who's obstructing the way to ceasefire? I think it's
Netanyahu.
And it's time for the West, and especially the United States administration, and especially people like Kamala Harris, to understand
that it is time to stop being totally biased to Israel. It is time to respect the values that American presidents speak about, the values of
human rights. The values of international law that Israel has violated dramatically, continuously, in the most vicious way.
AMANPOUR: Mustafa Barghouti --
BARGHOUTI: It's time to see the Palestinians as they should be seen, equal human beings.
AMANPOUR: And that is it for this chapter of this horrible war for tonight. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
