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Amanpour
Interview with Governor Jared Polis (D-CO); Interview with Former Ukrainian Defense Minister Andriy Zagorodnyuk; Interview with James Beard Award-Winning Chef and "Black Food" Author Bryant Terry. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired November 27, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
With less than 60 days until Trump takes office, one Democratic governor is preparing to both work with him and protect against his policies. Colorado
Governor Jared Polis joins the show.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: They switched on the anti-drone device because of the threat around here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- as Russia makes gains in Eastern Ukraine, Nick Paton Walsh takes us inside the struggle to hold them off.
Plus, but how much U.S. support can Kyiv really count on under Trump, and what are the options? I speak to Ukraine's former defense minister, Andriy
Zagorodnyuk.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRYANT TERRY, JAMES BEARD AWARD-WINNING CHEF AND AUTHOR, "BLACK FOOD": We know that food has always played a central role in cultural expression,
community building, and survival in the black community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- as Americans prepare for Thanksgiving, Michel Martin explores the evolution and diversity of African American cuisine with the award-
winning chef, Bryant Terry.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. And here, overseas, every day, the world wakes up to a slew of new Trump
appointees, who appear to be not only America first, but Trump first. The United States, under a second Trump presidency, looks to be retreating from
the mantle of multilateral global leadership that it pioneered after World War II, and looks to be leaning headlong into a transactional and even
punitive relationship with the world.
Take the latest late night social media posts about slapping 25 percent tariffs on America's closest and biggest trade partners and neighbors,
Canada and Mexico, while threatening to lob even heavier tariffs at rival China.
Leaders of allies and adversaries are trying to figure out how to deal with four more years of Trump. In the United States, some governors, led by J.
B. Pritzker of Illinois and Jared Polis of Colorado, are trying to strengthen their own state level institutions to protect against the
promised retribution of President Trump. And Colorado Governor Jared Polis is joining me now from Boulder. Welcome to the program from your capital.
So, tell me how you, along with a group of other governors, plan to do precisely what I just said, to try to come up with a way of, you know,
protecting and carrying on for your own state's best interests.
GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): You know, just as international audiences are trying to guess what comes next so are American governors, American
citizens. Those of us across the country not knowing quite what to expect, wondering what was campaign rhetoric, what is the president-elect actually
going to do.
So, together with Governor Pritzker, we've put together a group, Governors Safeguarding Democracy About half the states have Democratic governors.
This is a nonpartisan organization. We have former Republican governors on our advisory board. We welcome any sitting Republican governors to join.
And as you know, the United States of America has a complex relationship between the United States and the federal government, fundamentally a
federalist system. There's a lot of autonomy at the state level. And we want to make sure that laws are followed and our democratic institutions
are protected, whether that's election integrity, independence of the courts, and making sure that nothing that is done at the federal level is
done illegally or extra legally with negative ramifications for the states.
ACOSTA: And do you think that given the -- you know, the character of Trump, and he's not bashful about promoting it, that he wants to do things
his way or it's the highway for everybody else? Do you think even on your own state level and local level you will be able to achieve that or will
there be pushback, either from the federal government or from allies of the MAGA allies in your own state, if there is such a thing?
POLIS: Well, there's, you know, constitutional authority that resides with the states. And so, just as we have a federal government in Washington, and
one of the frustrations of the states, for instance, is that the federal government is the entity that does immigration policy and gets to determine
citizenship as well as is responsible for protecting our borders, and we hope that President Trump does a good job of that. He certainly has said he
wants to.
[13:05:00]
At the state level, we also have a lot of autonomy and ability to move forward. You know, one of the frustrating things, again, when you see him
come out with something like 25 percent tariffs, that's devastating to our economy. Of course, 25 percent tax on American consumers on many products
we buy, including the clothes on our back and the food on our Thanksgiving tables, but also, really damaging to American manufacturing, because many
of those parts that are used in American manufacturing are sourced internationally and it'll force many of these factories and jobs overseas.
There's very little legally states can do about tariffs. We can engage in meaningful memorandums of understanding and relationships with other
countries and states, and we do. But when it comes to trade, the federal government has the exclusive authority around trade conditions and tariffs,
unfortunately.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, because it appears to us that this announcement about tariffs against Mexico and against Canada, at least by the words that
Trump used, said nothing about the economy. It basically was -- appeared to be political. It was about -- he said drugs, like fentanyl, or migration
and that kind of stuff. What do you believe is behind some of these tariffs? Is it economic? Is it cudgel? What is it?
POLIS: Well, look, the guy incorrectly likes tariffs. He doesn't seem to understand that they are attacks on American consumers as opposed to
foreign producers. Let's talk about trade. Trade, inherently, makes both parties better off when they engage in a consensual transaction. When we
buy our avocados and tomatoes and strawberries and raspberries from Mexico, American consumers, particularly in winter, and it's snowing now outside in
Colorado, we don't grow those things here. We love having them available at a low cost and high quality at our grocery stores. When those all increase
in price by 25 percent, it really makes it harder to afford to live the lifestyle Americans want to live.
So, again, President Trump weren't -- President-Elect Trump wants certain things. He says he wants better security around fentanyl. Who doesn't?
Better border security. Who doesn't? You know, maybe there's an off-ramp there. We hope that he doesn't want to barrel forward on tariffs so hard
that he doesn't want to find an off-ramp.
But in all honesty, again, he did run on this. I don't think he's eager to find an off-ramp. But for the sake of both the American economy as well as
the Canadian and Mexican economy, and I would add that there's ramifications for Europe as well with a trade war, negative ramifications
for the European economy, I truly hope that we can find an off-ramp for President-Elect Trump and move back to establishing more open markets for
made in America and grow in America product.
AMANPOUR: Except, as you said, he doesn't actually believe in those particular off-ramps. And yes, Europe is incredibly worried about a whole
slew of tariffs and the whole idea of protectionism, which is his fundamental belief when it comes to trade.
Now, you have described yourself as a glass half full kind of guy, as an optimist. And therefore, you have done, I don't know, maybe the right
thing, maybe not. And you've offered an olive branch to trying to work with Trump on issues that you can work with him on. Sensible. But I want to ask
you, what -- how can you -- he's already -- his borders czar-elect is threatening your own Denver mayor because of immigration policies in
Colorado. He's basically saying, I'm going to put him in jail if he doesn't, you know, get rid of the so-called illegal immigrants or jail
them. How is that a sort of a working together kind of attitude?
POLIS: Well, look, I'm not going to get between the Denver mayor and the federal government. But again, looking at the glasses half full, do we want
more federal assistance in keeping our community safe and going after both immigrants as well as Americans who have committed crime? Absolutely.
So, we welcome that. If there's a way to better find, apprehend, prosecute and deport criminals who were born from other in other countries and have
come here to commit crimes, we welcome that. We welcome that. Obviously, there's a much higher percentage of crime that's committed by Americans who
were born here and live here. We welcome the help of the FBI on that as well.
So, again, we want to say that we want to make our community safer. That's our main goal. But when it comes to going after hardworking de facto
American families that are critical part of our economy, whether it's in the agriculture sector, the construction sector, we want to do everything
within our legal means to protect our economy and our prosperity, and push back.
AMANPOUR: I just want to play this because I was looking for it. I want to play this piece from, you know, Homan, whose designated borders czar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM HOMAN, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Me and the Denver Mayor, we agree on one thing. He's willing
to go to jail. I'm willing to put him in jail. Because there's a statute, is Title 8, United States Code 1324 III. And what it says is it's a felony
if you knowingly harbor and conceal illegal alien from immigration authorities.
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It's also a felony to impede a federal law enforcement officer. So, if we don't want to help, that's fine, he can get to hell all the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: We kind of discussed this issue, but do you think your state is helping to conceal and hide people who've committed, you know, crimes?
POLIS: Well, look, if the new administration comes in and starts arresting and jailing duly elected mayors in cities across the country, that'll lead
to more division rather than less division. And frankly, it'll make it harder to secure the border and fix our broken immigration system.
So, again I don't think the border czar, and I don't know exactly what his authority is, but I don't think it involves arresting mayors or city
council people across the country who happen to disagree with them. And that's not the American way. So, I'm hopeful, again, that the president-
elect's better angels prevail, and he tries to bring people together around an issue where there's a lot of common sense.
We all want to make our communities safer, apprehend and deport any immigrants who commit crimes who are a danger to our community. And of
course, we need a better border security to make sure we can stop the deadly flow of fentanyl into our country. These are common sense things
that I'm sure nearly every American agrees on. When it comes to arresting sitting elected officials because of their political beliefs, that's very
un-American and it's dangerous to our constitution and our country.
AMANPOUR: I want to know where you've detected a political better angel. I mean, I'm being serious because I want to know how a blue state, a
Democratic state like yours, which stayed blue despite the odds of what was going on around the country and even got bluer, I think, and we'll discuss
that, where is the better angel that you would like to attach yourself to?
POLIS: To be clear, I voted for Kamala Harris and campaigned for her hard. I wish that she was elected president of the United States. She wasn't.
Donald Trump won the election fair and square. He's going to be our president for the next four years. And of course, we need to find ways to
work with them where we can, to make people in our states better, more prosperous, more successful and to improve America's standing abroad. So,
he is going to be president the next four years and we need to make the best if we can of the situation.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you, because now, since the election, as you said, you vote for Kamala -- you voted for Kamala Harris. She didn't win.
The margin of the popular vote is not as massive as Trump tried to proclaim on the early days. But nonetheless, there is a trifecta in Washington, and
he is the duly elected president.
How did your state manage to outperform many other Democratic leaning states? What did you do? What -- how did you appeal in -- you know, to
people who were talking about the cost of living, to talking about, you know, the sort of culture wars, and sort of rebelled against the Democratic
Party and so many other parts?
POLIS: Well, I've had the opportunity to govern with the Democratic majorities in both chambers of our legislature here in Colorado. And
really, from the very start, we focused on reducing costs and saving people money. We've reduced the income tax three times. We removed the sales tax
for many everyday items, especially for parents like diapers and baby formula. We established universal free preschool and kindergarten. When I
came in as governor, our state only had half day kindergarten. Parents had to pay for full day kindergarten. Preschool for four-year-olds was very
expensive. We made both of those free. It saves young families $6,000 a year.
So, really, just saying, look, we get it. You know, costs have gone up. How can we be effective as a state at reducing your cost so you have more money
left over to do the kind of things you want to do, whether it's buy a new home, whether it's afford your monthly payments, whether it's a go on
vacation, whether it's safe for college? And again, you know, it's a lot of hard work. It's a slog, but people know we're working for them. And that's
the message and the policies that we've been working on the six years I've had the honor to be governor of this great state.
AMANPOUR: So, if you transpose that to the wider Democratic Party, which is trying to figure out how to get itself out of this wilderness, having
lost young voters, working class voters, even nonwhite voters, traditional Democratic coalitions, what must the party do, given the fact that, by all
accounts, yes, individually people were hurting on cost of living. But in the macro level, the economy was doing much better than when Trump left
office. Huge numbers of jobs, millions of new jobs were created. Inflation was slashed by at least two thirds. What more has to be done? What failed
there?
POLIS: Well, I think really focusing on what brings us together rather than what separates us. Look, it's a strong economy. I think part of the
problem that President Biden had with messaging is they were talking about jobs, and we all like jobs, but the truth is the unemployment rate is very
low in our country. People have jobs. The main frustration they feel is that their wages having kept up with their costs, whether that's housing,
whether that's health care, whether that's groceries at the store. So, you really need to focus the agenda around reducing costs.
[13:15:00]
On housing, we've removed barriers that prevented new housing from being built. We've expedited approval process for new permits. We've done zoning
reform that allow more homes to be built closer to job centers and work. On health care, we established reinsurance and brought down rates 20, 30
percent in our health care exchange so more people can afford coverage. I mentioned we've reduced the income tax three times. We've reduced the sales
tax and eliminated it for many essential items.
So, again, these are real-life solutions that matter to people and we've matched that with the pain point people feel, which is look, I may have a
job and I may have that security there, or perhaps I even got a better job or a raise, but what good is that when my expenses have gone up faster than
my income? We need to reverse that trend. And that's a lot of the work that we've been trying to do here in Colorado. And I hope that both parties,
frankly, undertake nationally, because the country needs it.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you about a bit of a controversy that you kicked up in your series of social media posts about dealing with RFK Jr., who's
being nominated to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. You wrote, I'm excited by the news that the president-elect will appoint him to
that department. He helped us defeat vaccine mandates in Colorado in 2019 and will help make America healthy again by shaking up HHS and FDA.
So, you know, we're not going to go through the whole litany of the damaging, the destructive, the prejudice disinformation spread by RFK Jr.
and the conspiracy theories and the bear dumping and I don't know what else, but your own Denver Post has said, even if Polis did praise Trump's
saner cabinet picks, what does he expect to get? Will Trump forget the bad blood between them? Just last month, the former president called Polis a
weak, ineffective, cowardly, pathetic fraud.
I mean, honestly, that's the level of dialogue that's going on, and you're trying to work with it.
POLIS: Well, the president makes rude comments oftenly, he does that with both political allies and those who he's opposed to. And that's who he is.
It's sadly, in my opinion, who the American people elected. He is going to be president the next four years. And again as a state, the relationship
with the federal government is a very important one.
When you look at RFK in particular, last time Donald Trump was president, he appointed a pharmaceutical lobbyist as head of this agency, health and
human services, a fellow by the name of Alex Azar, to basically the fox guarding the hen house.
While RFK has absolutely said many things that are false, demonstrably, that are not factual, he has shown and is showing a willingness to take on
the pharmaceutical industry in ways that Trump's previous appointments haven't. So, again, it's a matter of encouraging those better angels. I
think we can get a better result out of the Department of Health, out of the FDA if we have this opportunity to work with somebody who starts in a
critical place with regard to the pharmaceutical industrial complex and find ways to work together.
I'll give you one specific example. Colorado's applied for, at HHS, the ability to import prescription drugs from other countries, specifically
Canada, at a much lower cost. There's no way anybody with ties to the pharmaceutical industry would ever approve that. Am I hopeful that RFK
might approve that? I am. I hope I'm not being naive, but he said as much when he was running for president. And I'm hopeful we can work with him to
provide lower cost prescription drugs to the people of our state.
AMANPOUR: Governor Polis of Colorado, thank you very much for joining us. Really interesting perspective. Thank you.
Now, to Ukraine, where the fighting steps up as Russia makes advances in the east. The outlook seems bleak for one unit in Pokrovsk that is so low
on infantry, it's resorting to drones instead. And Nick Paton Walsh has more. Of course, a warning, some of the video in his report is graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): They're running out of time, space, and people. Night is killing time for drones.
WALSH: They've switched on the anti-drone device because of the threat around here.
WALSH (voice-over): This Ukrainian drone unit of just two, hunting, but also hunted.
WALSH: I think I hear a drone. Inside, inside. Is it a Russian drone? Is it one of theirs? I don't know, but they have to carry on.
WALSH (voice-over): Dogs are not friends. Their heat signals can give their launch spot away to Russia's thermal cameras. They close in on the
target, a house. Jamming hits the signal, but they fire anyway. Russia advancing too fast here, south of Pokrovsk in the east to miss any chances.
The skyline speaks of how Pokrovsk is in Russia's crosshairs. Ukraine is short of manpower, but it is so bad here they say they must rely on drones,
not infantry, to slow a brazen Russian daylight assault like this one.
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"EAST", DRONE COMPANY COMMANDER, 15TH NATIONAL GUARD (through translator): The situation is very critical. We lack the infantry to fight and hold out
for some time while the attack drones do their job. That's why we often see the enemy uncomfortably penetrating vulnerable areas.
WALSH (voice-over): This Russian tank, relentless. As a Trump presidency and possible peace talks loom, do they even have time for that?
"KOSHEI", RECON UNIT, 15TH NATIONAL GUARD (through translator): I cannot say how much time we have. If there is any time at all. Because now they
are pushing their troops to the front as much as possible. At then at one point, they will go for an assault. They can go very far. In one moment.
WALSH (voice-over): Talk here is abnormally negative. With weeks of costly and chaotic retreat on film. Like these Ukrainians hit when they're
mistakenly told this building didn't have any Russians in it. This house has an encircled Ukrainian drone unit without any infantry to help fight
advancing Russians. So, they send a drone to fly just 30 meters across the street.
"KOTYA", RECON UNIT, 15TH NATIONAL GUARD (through translator): I have no men. I'm -- alone. I'm -- tired. I love my job, whatever trash is happening
but we need other young people to love this job too. Our country is awake, but people in it are -- not. Guys are dying here. This is trash. Freezing
this war is a double-edged sword. Do we give up the land my friends died for or to continue taking it back and lose even more friends? If these two
old men, Trump and Putin, start measuring dicks, Ukraine will be the middle of it all.
WALSH (voice-over): Russian troops savage in the assault. This footage shows a local in orange who's shown Russians where Ukrainians were hiding.
They are led out and shot while face down.
Part of a pattern of surrendering Ukrainians executed, say prosecutors investigating this incident a fortnight ago. Pokrovsk's key sites bombed,
but so far spared Russia's trademark devastation. It is possible, some say, Moscow is moving so fast, it thinks it will spend the winter here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Nick Paton Walsh reporting outside Pokrovsk in Eastern Ukraine. And Russia has been making those gains in the east at the fastest rate
since the early months of the war. It is a make-or-break moment for Ukraine. The country's leaders are all waiting to see how Trump will
deliver on his vow to end it -- end the war.
Former Defense Minister Andrei Zagorodnyuk is joining me now from Kyiv. Welcome back to the program, Minister.
ANDREI ZAGORODNYUK, FORMER UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER: Thank you. Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Can I just ask you to comment on that last horrible scene from Nick's reporting where a drone showed what, you know, looked to be Russian
soldiers on the ground, basically executing at point blank range, surrendering Ukrainian forces.
ZAGORODNYUK: That's not the first time, unfortunately, far not the first time. That's happening, unfortunately, quite regularly, and there's been
all recorded and flagged to international courts and so on. But obviously, it's still continuous.
Generally, we need to remember, and we had a few discussions over the last year with you, about the fact that this war is too much on the ground, and
it's too much relying on infantry. That's not the modern war, which Ukraine needed to have. And the reason for that is the lack of long-range firepower
and lack of the aviation. And we've been discussing this for months and months, and unfortunately, as we can see right now, you know, infantry wars
are extremely high with casualties, very tragic and have all this kind of situations.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you --
ZAGORODNYUK: We persist --
AMANPOUR: I just want to ask you then because of that, you know, the recon leader of that platoon there told our correspondent that, you know, I love
my job, but everybody else in the country doesn't love this job and we need more people. And he said, you know I just don't have the people. I don't
have the people. So, we have to resort to drones.
What is -- I mean that -- your country is in a bit of a bind on terms of mobilization and troops, right?
ZAGORODNYUK: And it will continue to be so as long as we're relying on the -- like main center of gravity for this war is the infantry troops. That's
not the war which we considered to be like permanent during all this period of time.
[13:25:00]
We've been always saying about like, we need long-range weapons. We need aviation. We need F-16s. We need the rockets. We need a permission to
strike. Every time, when we're going to come back with you or on any other programs, to the question on the why infantry war, it's so unfavorable to
Ukraine, it will continue to be unfavorable because this is -- the whole system of operations is supposed to be more about the striking in a deep
and destroying ability of for Russians to approach to the frontline in a sort of ready condition in a condition ready to fight with our troops.
That's what -- how any NATO general would fight the war.
And Ukraine has looked in this paradigm of the constant infantry battle. And that's something which we're been trying to kind of resolve with our
partners for years and years. And as we still -- we're still there. So, hence these -- all these pictures and all these specific situations.
AMANPOUR: So, let me then ask you, the last time I spoke to you, it was before president Biden had changed the policy on the use of ATACMS and
before the Brits had announced that the Storm Shadows, these are the long- range artilleries, could be used against Russian targets. Has it made a difference now that they can?
ZAGORODNYUK: It's going to, of course, and it's making a difference already because we use those weapons against the high value targets. The
high value targets are command control centers, logistical centers and the congregations of the troops in the kind of large groups and also fire
support and so on.
So, that disproportionately impacts the -- it has a massive effect, like a symmetric effect on the ability of Russia to send the troops to the
frontline. So, the whole military doctrine of today's wars and that includes like -- that goes throughout the whole NATO philosophy is to
strike as deep as you can. And in order to reduce the ability of your adversary to arrive in the frontline in the most ready condition. And
that's what's happening right now.
Of course. We just started doing that. We still need to ramp up. We still need to have a better ability to do that. But of course, that's the only
way for any war to be at least even moderately successful. The wars, which are clashing on the front, like infantry against infantry, is going to be
tragic for both parties, for both sides. Russia, obviously is happy about that, we're not. And that's how it goes right now. So, we need to change
that paradigm.
AMANPOUR: Here's from -- here's an expert from the Royal United Services Institute, the think tank here in the U.K., it said just a few days ago,
Ukraine is rapidly approaching a point where if it does not address the manpower issue then it will struggle to defend the length of the front. And
so, the collapse in its fighting positions will accelerate.
How do you fix this? Do you agree with that? And how do you fix that problem?
ZAGORODNYUK: If we consider not changing the paradigm of the way, yes, I do agree with that and Ukraine addresses this. But also, Ukraine ramps up
dramatically the drone production, because drones is actually helps Ukraine to keep the enemy away from the front. Of course, drones also require
people, but less and this is a slightly different job in many cases. These are long-range drones and so on.
But we were also -- I was myself writing to the same think tank recently, and we've -- and I've been arguing that in order to keep the enemy away, we
do need never should forget the firepower is the -- sorry, the long-range firepower and the airpower are the key to the -- any victory any success.
So, we -- again, we cannot focus just on the infantry. They said there would be a huge and historical mistake.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, you know, the other P.S. to the ATACMS use was that then Putin sent a very sophisticated new experimental missile into Kyiv, I
think. I believe that it's nuclear capable. You correct me if I'm wrong. But is -- you know, is there -- is -- I mean, you could face more of that,
not only that, and I'll just play this soundbite because Putin then adjusted the so-called nuclear doctrine. Let me play what he just -- what
he said about that a few days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We consider ourselves entitled to use our weapons against the military objects of those
countries that allowed their weapons to be used against our objects. And in the event of an escalation of aggressive actions, we will respond just as
decisively and in kind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, how do you read all that? I mean, this is a really, you know, escalating rhetoric and in some cases, use of firepower.
ZAGORODNYUK: So, first of all, we had rockets from Russia, which are technically capable of for nuclear weapons from the first probably months
of the war. So, this is -- there's absolutely nothing new with that.
[13:30:00]
We had those all the time because the different nuclear warheads could be put in different rockets. And sometimes they used with regular warheads
sometimes with -- well, could be used with nuclear. And so, we had those all the time. We also had the ones which primarily used with nuclear but
without the warhead also, all the way through the through the war. So, this is -- there's nothing new with this.
What is new is that they sent something new and they advertised it quite a lot and made a big information campaign out of that in order to literally
send the shockwaves around the world that, look, Russia is sending something intercontinental ballistic missile.
So, first of all, there is no point of sending intercontinental to Ukraine, which is the neighbor of Russia. Secondly, there hasn't been a warhead,
obviously, at all. And it stroke the factory in Dnipro, which is in the Central Ukraine, and haven't done substantial damage. However, the video
obviously shows the other rockets flying with a regular warheads at the same time.
We do need to understand that Putin is trying to escalate, they're trying to scare the west of from supporting Ukraine. The fact that Ukraine should
shoot on the Russian territory, if it wants to seriously defend itself, it is absolutely basic logic for any war fighting concept. And any single
general from any army will never tell you that it's possible to defend the country without the ability to shoot back on their adversaries' territory.
It's just like very, very basic logic.
But of course, since -- until recently that wasn't possible and Russia was trying to do whatever it can in order to prevent the west from allowing
Ukraine to do so and then finally, allowed. And now, they're trying to show that they're very angry and they're trying to escalate. In fact, like 99
percent of what happened was just pure information campaign.
AMANPOUR: OK. But maybe also part of this is posturing ahead of what they believe might be some change in direction after January 2nd -- rather 20th,
when Trump comes in. So, you told me last time that it's not necessarily -- it's an existential fight for Ukraine. It's not about a couple of villages
or a couple of towns, it's about what Ukraine remains, what kind of Ukraine remains.
And so, first of all, I want to ask you whether you know of Keith Kellogg, who Trump has just nominated as special envoy for Ukraine and Russia. So,
I'm quoting now from Reuters. "Kellogg's plan for ending the war, which began when Russia invaded Ukrainian sovereign territory, involves freezing
the battle lines at their prevailing locations and forcing both Kyiv and Moscow to the negotiating table."
What's wrong with that from your perspective?
ZAGORODNYUK: Well, we'll see how it unfolds, because, again, that's what - - weren't his words, words of some other person about him. So, we need to see what they say. We need to see what President Trump says. And of course,
Russia is preparing itself, and that's why they ramp up the effort. They're -- actually, right now, they're applying an enormous effort and sustaining
an enormous casualties in order to get more territory. And particularly in order to build a position, including in information space, a position of
strengths.
And that's why everybody's talking about Russia is getting upper hand and they're winning and progressing and so on and so on. They're doing this
specifically before those -- that period when Trump would come as a president and then potentially, he may try to settle it somehow.
If Ukraine is going to be told or suggested, you know, to freeze the line, the whole question would be, first of all, frozen conflict is not the end
of the war. So, if Trump actually says that he wants to end of the war -- end the war, we need to address that sort of suggested plan. And clearly,
he needs to -- and his advisers -- and he has some very, very qualified people actually, already nominated to the new cabinet, that frozen war is
not the end of the war. Frozen war is just giving a period of time to other country to renew or restart and potentially strike again.
So, the question would be, how to make sure that that doesn't happen? There is no answer yet from Trump's group and from his cabinet, upcoming cabinet
on that. And I believe that there must be some significant work done in that direction. And I'm sure that Ukraine is happy to work with them and
talk to them about all kinds of different options if we're talking about actually ending the war, not just freezing it for some short period of
time.
AMANPOUR: OK. I want to just read you something that your former foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba, said this week. He said, the first weapons that
Ukraine received from the United States came from a president who hates Ukraine. If his goal is to project strength and to say eventually that I'm
better than Biden, that Biden failed and I ended the war, then selling out Ukraine is not the way forward.
So, that's what Kuleba says. So, to you, I want to ask, there seems to be a huge amount of focus now on security guarantees. It's a little bit like
what you told me before that whatever happens, if there's a buffer zone or whatever it is, Ukraine has to be protected against a follow up invasion.
So, security guarantees.
[13:35:00]
Is that what your government, do you think, and all the people in think tanks like yourself in Ukraine are focusing on now, on getting the best
security guarantee?
ZAGORODNYUK: As a part of the process, yes. Not just that, but also, that's obviously is a part of the work. And our president published the so-
called victory plan, which has been transmitted to various governments. And it has a whole section that's called deterrence. And deterrence means that
how to ensure that the adversaries kept outside of the borders and is unable to strike us again.
And there's a whole theory about that. There's a lot of different options, and there's a lot of different possibilities what can be done. But the key
thing is that what is in security language is called deterrence by denial, which means that the only way to keep Putin away from Ukraine is to make
sure that if he tries again, he fails. He fails physically like in a kinetic conflict and dramatically.
And that means that capabilities, which Ukraine need to be either in possession or in immediate proximity to need -- must be adequate in order
to ensure that failure. It's very difficult to do and there's lots of issues about that, but yes, there's a lot of work going on right now on how
to do that.
AMANPOUR: Especially in the context of a land for peace deal. Now, let me ask you this. It is now being suggested that President Biden and the Biden
administration, sure, they rushed to your aid, they gave -- you know, they got NATO together, but that they did just enough to enable you not to lose
and they didn't do enough to help you win. What is your assessment now that the Biden administration is outgoing of what they did for you?
ZAGORODNYUK: Well, for sure, Biden administration did that Ukraine exists. Right now, we are talking to you from Kyiv, which is obviously not a safe
place because we have air raids almost every night, but at the same time, people -- there is some economy, there is some life and people trying to
keep on living and families and so on and so on.
So, that would not exist if Biden administration just walked away from Ukraine or provided some absolute minimum, which wouldn't be adequate. But
at the same time, yes, there's been discussions about like why certain weapons weren't provided earlier and why we missed some moments when
Ukraine had upper hand and Ukraine had actually was pushing very actively Russia away from its land.
In 2022, we liberated half of what Russia has seized. And by the end of the '22, we were like actually in a much stronger position than even right now.
But then, there's been constant debates about tanks, about F-16s. And at the moment, despite of all these hundreds of billions provided, Ukraine
hasn't have a single competitive plane against Russian aviation, a single one of them. And any general, as I said, will tell you about the importance
of (INAUDIBLE).
So, it's a -- it's kind of a difficult and it's a multi kind of a polar situation, but --
AMANPOUR: Yes. We'll talk more about it because, unfortunately, we're out of time now. But Andriy Zagorodnuk, thank you so much.
Now, as Americans prepare for Thanksgiving meals, we look back at Michel Martin's conversation with Bryant Terry, an award-winning chef and author
of six books, including "Black Food: Stories, Art, and Recipes from Across the African Diaspora." Here's their conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Bryant Terry, thank you so much for joining us.
BRYANT TERRY, JAMES BEARD AWARD-WINNING CHEF AND AUTHOR, "BLACK FOOD": Thank you so much for having me on, Michel. It's great to see you again.
MARTIN: It's great to see you. You are an award-winning chef, author, cookbook author, you know, activist. And one of your signatures is to kind
of connect the food, not just with health and with enjoyment, but with the culture.
Juneteenth celebrates the end of slavery and more broadly, kind of African- American resilience and resistance. How do you think food fits into that?
TERRY: Yes, that's a great question. So, as you mentioned, we know that Juneteenth commemorates the ending of slavery in the United States, and it
has a specific geographic context in Texas, but it's moved beyond there. And since it's a national holiday now it has evolved into a day of
reflection, celebration, and education about black history and culture.
And, you know, because of the work that I do around health, food, and farming issues, and because I just love to eat, I'm always thinking about
different cultural holidays. Our cultural holidays through the lens of food. And we know that food has always played a central role in cultural
expression, community building, and survival in the black community. We can go back to the civil rights movement. We think about, you know, so many of
the restaurants and home cooks who supported black activists.
[13:40:00]
In fact, so many of the -- so much of the strategizing and organizing happen in home kitchens. We think about someone like Fannie Lou Hamer, who,
you know, we often associate with electoral politics and a lot of people aren't aware that Fannie Lou Hamer started the Freedom Farm in Mississippi,
which had over 600 acres of land. They had affordable housing, acres and acres of farmland and educational workshops to empower the community.
You know, but I want to just mention one of my biggest inspirations, and that was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense, colloquially known as
the Black Panthers. And, you know, while the popular media often paints them as kind of angry militants, they had a number of meaningful and
powerful programs that were aimed at meeting the basic needs and communities. And a number of them looked at health, specifically food,
their grocery giveaways and their free breakfast for children program in which they were feeding children, hot, nourishing breakfasts every single
morning.
And so, you know, when I think about this -- all these things that predates the type of activism that I currently do around these issues, it only makes
sense that, you know, we think about Juneteenth and just all the connections with the kind of transfer of ingredients from the African
continent to the new world as well as cooking techniques. So, I use it as a time to celebrate food.
MARTIN: You know, people often think of African-American cuisine or traditional African-American cuisine as slave food, right? What was created
from the remnants, the leftover, the least desirable portions, as it were. You really -- talk about resistance, you really resist that narrative. You
want to say more about that? Why you think that that's not really quite right and why you push hard against that?
TERRY: Well, I think in general, in the popular imagination, there are these very reductive ways that we think about black food, specifically food
in, you know, the United States. And so, as you mentioned, there are kind of these two strains that I've seen people talk about. They even talk about
the antebellum survival food, upon which many enslaved Africans relied. And, you know, people often talk disparagingly about that food. You know,
I've heard it referred to a slave food.
And as you mentioned, there are -- this kind of history of often plantation owners giving enslaved Africans, the worst parts of the animals, the animal
viscera, or the discarded parts of the vegetable. And one, you know, let's not mention the fact that there were free black people, every Black person
in the United States, a person of African descent, wasn't enslaved. But the other thing is that the institution of slavery wasn't a monolith.
So, maybe in the Deep South, the Black Belt it was more of a paternalistic system in which every need of enslaved Africans was provided by plantation
owners. But it -- you know, the institution of slavery looked different the way that enslaved Africans might grow food, cook it, and eat it in the
Coastal Carolinas, look different than it did in Mississippi, Alabama, and Tennessee, and that look different than it did in Louisiana, and that
looked different than it did in Bahia, Brazil.
And so, to reduce it to just slave foods, you know, erases this history of enslaved Africans, maybe having a garden in which they could grow their own
food for their families or having a day off where they can hunt for protein. But the other strand that I see are the kind of big flavored meats
that we might find in a soul food restaurant or the, you know, sugary desserts or overcooked vegetables.
And here's the thing. I'm not denying any of those things. Chitlins and pig's feet and red velvet cake and macaroni and cheese, all these things
are part of this very diverse cuisine that we have. But when I think about the type of food that my grandfather and his parents and, you know, so many
of our ancestors, they were growing and eating things like nutrient rich collards, mustards, turnips, kale, dandelions, sugar snap peas, pole beans,
sweet potatoes, black eyed peas. These are the type of foods, Michel, as you know, that any Western trained physician or, you know, dietitian or
nutritionist would say we should all eat.
And so, I simply want to uplift and highlight those nutrient rich, healthful foods that are part of our tradition so that we have a more
holistic understanding of the type of foods that we've grown and eaten historically.
MARTIN: How did it start for you?
TERRY: Well, I can tell you about the period when I -- you know, there is a stereotype, Michel. I'm sure you've kind of heard or seen the stereotype
of the self-righteous, dogmatic, judgmental vegans, right? The people that are wagging their finger at you because you're not eating a vegan diet,
even though they just converted to veganism like the week before. So, that was me in high school.
And, you know, one of the powerful things that really helped transform my habits and attitudes and politics regarding food was a hip hop song. The
song "Beef" by the hip hop group Boogie Down Productions, one of the seminal hip hop groups.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beef, what a relief. When will this poisonous product cease? This is another public service announcement. You can believe it, or
you can doubt it. Let us begin now with the power --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:45:00]
TERRY: It just really blew me away and just transformed everything for me because they were talking about factory farming. I had no idea that animals
in our industrialized food system had to endure so much violence. And as a young person, you know, it had such an impact on me.
And you know, the thing is, I always talk about just that kind of like abrasive period that I went through, and I think it's just natural for a
young person to have a shift in worldview and to feel very zealous about, you know, trying to change the world.
But once again, you know, what I've seen is that rather than proselytizing, the most powerful way that I've engaged people is by doing practical
things, teaching people cooking skills, writing cookbooks, providing people with delicious food. And then, that is such a powerful way to kind of
transform people's hearts, minds, and spirits.
MARTIN: What made you become a chef?
TERRY: It was really the politics of food that moved me towards, you know, just going to culinary school and thinking about using food as a kind of
transformative tool. And it started when I was a doctoral student in history at NYU, when I was doing research on the Black Panthers. They were,
you know, doing all these programs around health, like addressing medical apartheid and doing -- testing for sickle cell anemia.
But the one that transformed me the most was their free breakfast for children program This was started in 1969 in January of that year. And by
the end of the year, it had spread to every major city that had a Black Panther chapter, and they were feeding over 10,000 children every single
day.
And I just remember this kind of, like, moment of clarity. I was on the subway one morning going to the village to teach a class and I saw these
kids on the subway eating red hot Cheetos and candy bars and sugary donuts and they were drinking sodas and energy drinks. And I realized that these
kids, as my mentor, Raj Patel would say, they're being stuffed and starved. They're eating a lot, but they're empty calories.
And I realized that the type of -- the spirit of the activism back in the '60s and the '70s, we needed it now. And so, I want it to be a food justice
activist to make an intervention. But I didn't want to just, you know, be in the realm of like ideas and politics. I wanted to do something that felt
practical, that felt immediate, that felt like it was giving young people skills.
And so, I started an organization be healthy that use cooking as a way to wake up these young people to the realities of our food system, but also
give them the skills so that when they were adults, they would actually be able to make meals from themselves, go shopping, prepare the food, and
then, you know, really have this kind of sustenance-based approach to taking care of their -- themselves and their families.
MARTIN: Have you seen a change over the time that since you've been working as a chef and also as a cookbook author? Have you seen a change? I
know, like, thinking about, like, one of your first books, "Afro-Vegan," you know, a lot of people, I think, might have been surprised that somebody
like you even exists.
TERRY: That book was published a decade ago. We just celebrated the 10- year anniversary. And it's been so encouraging, I have to say, to see so
many people who are, I'll say, open to eating more plant-based foods, even people who aren't necessarily trying to embrace a full-on vegan or plant-
based diet. What I've seen are people are open to doing meatless Mondays, or people are open to doing, you know, one meal a day that has, you know, a
vegan meal and no animal products.
And what that says to me is that more people understand the -- I mean, look, the data is out. We know that having a more plant centered diet, it's
more nutrient dense, it tends to be more helpful and people just feel lighter.
And that's -- you know, Michel, you've seen me on this journey for a decade. And I just want to say that that has been my approach. You can
start with the heady intellectual ideas or the politics, but a lot of times when you start there, people run away. But my approach has been starting
with the food, because I think a lot of people have these negative perceptions of what plant-based cuisine is. And what I've seen is when you
serve people delicious food, that's devoid of animal products, they're often surprised and it makes them more open to eating this type of food.
I will say that one thing that has been a little frustrating to me is that it seems that a lot of people feel like, you know, spending their dollars
in alignment with their values is enough. You know, if I just go to the big corporate market and I buy all this, you know, vegan and organic food, then
I'm doing my job. And I think that is important to spend our dollars in alignment with our values. But I also think that we need to think about the
larger structural reasons that many communities don't have access to healthy, fresh food. They don't have access to supermarkets.
So, I always encourage people to think about, well, how can you get involved with your community to ensure that everyone has a human right to
healthy, fresh, affordable, and, you know, plant centered food?
MARTIN: Do you feel like you're making headway?
[13:50:00]
TERRY: Oh, for sure. You know the thing that lets me know that I'm making headway is this generation of young cookbook authors and chefs and food
justice activists who are in the streets doing it big. I turn 50 this year. So, I'm an old man now. And just as I'm standing on the shoulders of so
many of my ancestors who come before me, whether it's Fannie Lou Hamer, or, you know, activists like Dick Gregory, or the, you know, MC Cara (ph) is
one, Vertamae Smart-Grosvenor, the anthropologist and cookbook writer.
I hope that many of this younger generation see themselves standing on my shoulders. And I, you know, imagine that they're going to take this so much
further than I could ever imagine. So, I'm hopeful. I'm so hopeful.
MARTIN: One of your latest books, your 2021 book called "Black Food: Stories, Art, and Recipes from Across the African Diaspora" won a bunch of
awards. It was hailed as one of the most critically acclaimed American cookbooks that year. Are there one or two stories or essays that really
stands out to you or recipes for that matter that really stands out to you?
TERRY: We put that book together in nine months. And we started working on it in 2020 when the -- U.S. was kind of reckoning with the ways in which
we've treated African-Americans historically and contemporaneously. I knew that I saw an anthology like black food that brought together scholars and
chefs and artists and activists from around the globe as something that I do later in my career.
But in that moment, I realized that there was a sense of urgency to do it then because it was revealed there was a lot of racism within the
publishing industry. And, you know, there was a lot of highlighting of the ways in which, you know, authors of color and black authors were having a
harder time getting their work published.
And so, I just felt like this was the moment and I reached out to friends around the globe to be a part of this book and I couldn't be more proud. My
favorite aspect of the book is the artwork. Every chapter starts with a piece of art that I got permission or either had artists kind of create our
original piece that really encapsulated the ideas and the content within.
And, you know, I just -- as an educator, I'm always thinking about the multiple ways that people learn. Some people who've been formally educated
there, they can dig deeply into, you know, a heady intellectual essay, but then some people might be more moved by an image that really just speaks
to, you know, these issues that we're covering. Some people might be moved by the poetry in the book. Others are just going to see it as a book that
they use in their kitchen.
So, when I wrote the book or when I conceived of it, I said, I want this to book -- be a book that moved from one's kitchen to their nightstand, to
their coffee table. And the response has been so tremendous. And you know, here we are, what, three years later after book is being published, and
we're still talking about it, and I hope that we're still talking about it 30 years from now.
MARTIN: OK. Well, for the moment though, some people do want those recipes. So, while people are planning their Juneteenth get togethers, what
do you recommend? Any recommendations?
TERRY: Oh, my gosh. My favorite recipe in the book, forks down, is this blueberry vegan cheesecake by this brilliant pastry chef, Malcolm
Livingston. And to be clear, this recipe -- this cookbook has, you know, dozens of recipes, but they aren't all vegan. And it was a decision I had
to make as an editor to really give the contributors a space to, you know, write or contribute the recipe that made sense for them or told their
family's story.
I love Nicole Taylor, a good friend of mine who actually has a book about Juneteenth that's brilliant, "Watermelon and Red Birds." She does this
cocoa baked fish recipe and people would think cocoa and fish, but it's absolutely brilliant and scrumptious. There are a lot of good, you know,
drink recipes, Toni Tipton-Martin, the cookbook author and editor does a recipe. I think it's a whiskey sour.
So, there's just so many great recipes in there. And you know, I think in terms of menu planning for Juneteenth or otherwise, this is a powerful
resource.
MARTIN: This will help you out. All right. Before we let you go, I have to put you on the spot. What is your celebration food? What is your kind of
go-to for a get together day like Juneteenth?
TERRY: If I have to make a dish, if it's just like one thing that's emblematic of my love, it's Hoppin' John. Black-eyed peas, rice, that, you
know, rich tomato sauce. That's hands down my favorite dish today.
MARTIN: That's got to be there.
TERRY: Yes.
MARTIN: All right. Bryant Terry, thank you so much for talking with us and happy Juneteenth.
TERRY: Happy Juneteenth. Thank you so much, Michel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: Delicious. And finally, tonight, hope does not disappoint. That's what the pope told U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken at the
Vatican today. Blinken said he was inspired. And coincidentally, the Catholic Church and the papacy are the focus of a new film by Oscar winning
director Edward Berger, who made the German language version of the wartime epic, "All Quiet on the Western Front."
"Conclave," about picking a new pope, stars Ralph Fiennes and Stanley Tucci, and I'll talk to Berger right here tomorrow about it.
That's it for now. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
