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Amanpour
Interview with Chatham House Middle East and North Africa Programme Director Sanam Vakil; Interview with Former U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon, Syria and Pakistan and RAND Distinguished Chair in Diplomacy and Security Ryan Crocker; Interview with "Conclave" Director Edward Berger. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired November 28, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Hit by a massive enemy attack on key energy infrastructure, which left more than a million homes without power. We're live in Central Ukraine as the
war grinds into its third winter.
And the ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah appears to be largely holding. I asked the head of the Middle East program at Chatham House,
Sanam Vakil, what it means for Gaza, and I speak with Ryan Crocker, the former U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, Syria, and Pakistan.
Plus, the potentially devastating impact of Ghana's gold rush. We have the first look at a report from inside that country.
And lifting the veil on how the Catholic Church selects a new pope. I speak with director Edward Berger about his new movie, Conclave.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. And we start with the latest missile and drone barrage across Ukraine overnight,
targeting the country's energy facilities just in time for the winter deep freeze. Air raid sirens sounded across the country, pushing people to take
shelter inside Kyiv's subway system.
This is also a warning Russian President Vladimir Putin's form of politics. He says the attack was in response to strikes inside Russia with U.S.
weapons.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Last night, we carried out a comprehensive strike using 90 missiles of similar classes and
100 drones. 17 targets were hit. These were military facilities, defense industry facilities, and their support systems. I repeat once again, on our
part, these strikes took place in response to the continuous strikes on Russian territory by American ATACMS missiles. As I have said many times,
there will always be a response from our side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: President Zelenskyy says this all just highlights his country's need for more air defenses. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in Central Ukraine
following these latest developments. Nick, thank you very much for being there on this very cold and late night in Ukraine.
You've come from the frontlines and what have you seen there in terms of the ability to match Russia's troops and its firepower?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, it's a very stark picture, Christiane, on the frontlines at this
stage, probably the worst I've seen in nearly three years of coming here. Certainly, near Pokrovsk, where we were, which is a vital Ukrainian
military hub against which there is a lot of Russian pressure from multiple different directions.
The soldiers we spoke to were clear for the first time, frankly, I've heard soldiers saying they simply had run out of men. One of them said he felt
alone. And essentially, the conversation was about how the next couple of months might indeed see a severe worsening of their situation on that
frontline there.
We saw on videos from drone feeds ourselves how the Russian result is just relentless, tank after tank at some points in the day dropping off infantry
that stay in tree lines. They get hit by the drones that Ukraine really have to rely on now to try and slow down these Russian infantry advances
because Ukraine is so short of infantry themselves. But it isn't simply enough at all.
And one soldier said to me, look, they dropped two off, two might survive the first assault. Russia has a huge tolerance of casualties for these what
they call storm waves. But then another 10 arrived to reinforce them.
Maps we were shown were out of date by the time they went up on the screen, frankly, because Russia had been pushing too far forwards. And that's just
around Pokrovsk. To its south, there's another Russian progress movement as well. To the northeast of there, another push too.
So, consistent concerns that we are seeing a very relentless Russian move. They are outnumbering the Ukrainian troops on the frontlines, certainly.
And above all of this in the background is these assaults we've been seeing against energy infrastructure.
Today's was the 11th that's happened so far this year. Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, said 90 missiles and a hundred drones. On Tuesday,
they had a record number of drones fired at Ukraine of 188. These waves of air assaults keep people up all night. They are staggering. They're going
to do damage to Ukraine's ability to keep itself warm and the lights on during this particular winter.
[13:05:00]
And it's the election of President-Elect Donald Trump that has many concerned too. He's just appointed Ukrainian special envoy, General Keith
Kellogg, to potentially negotiate a solution here. In fact, Putin in his comments suggested that Trump was both experienced and capable and might be
able to find a solution. Kellogg's solution essentially freezes the frontline, according to a plan he wrote back in April, and would ask
Ukraine to accept security guarantees, but also pursue the return of all of its lands, only through diplomacy.
It's a complex plan, certainly, it seems simple on the surface, and it relies on a lot of, I think, malleability and agreement from Vladimir
Putin, who right now appears to see his chance. Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Indeed, indeed. As everybody waits for what Trump will do, Nick Paton Walsh, thank you. And of course, security guarantees is what Ukraine
wants, for sure.
Now, a ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah is largely holding. Yet the Lebanese army says Israel has breached the agreement, quote, "several
times" since taking effect on Wednesday. Israel says it carried out a strike on, quote, "terrorist activity" in Southern Lebanon.
Still, the deal has brought a respite after more than a year of cross border attacks. And two months of intense Israeli strikes inside Lebanon,
they say, against Hezbollah, but more than 3,000 people have been killed, including civilians, according to the Lebanese government. And a million
people, at least, were evacuated.
But now, thousands of those displaced residents are returning. The U.S. national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, told CNN that the U.S. brokered
truce, along with France, presents an opportunity to, quote, "drive forward a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza."
Sanam Vakil is head of the Middle East program at Chatham House, and she's joining me here in London. Sanam, can I just first start by asking you
whether you see with the arrival of Trump in about a month or so, do you see any crossover between what's happening and what might happen under
Trump in Ukraine, and similarly, what Trump might bring to the Middle East?
SANAM VAKIL, DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA PROGRAMME, CHATHAM HOUSE: Good to be with you. And certainly, there is connectivity. I think
President Biden in advance of January 20th inauguration of incoming President Trump is trying to shore up its allies, Ukraine and, of course,
Israel, and protect his legacy which has been badly tarnished by two ongoing, devastating wars.
And we know that President Trump has made clear that he seeks to end these wars quite quickly. And so there is a lot of positioning across the region
in the Middle East, but also, obviously, between Ukraine and Russia to be in the right place for Trump's supposed deals.
AMANPOUR: There's a bit of a crossover when it comes to Iran. Ukraine has complained and so has the United States for years now about the Iranian, as
we've just heard, the impact of the latest barrage of Shahed drones, other missiles and other, you know, hardware that Iran has been providing Russia
with.
Also, Iran seems to be -- or you tell me how you're reading it, seems to be realizing that it and its partners in the Middle East have been weakened.
What do you think -- since you study the Iran part of this and it's going to be massively important under Trump as it always is, what do you think
that piece of it will look like in the next, I don't know, several months and years?
VAKIL: Here, again, there is connectivity as you pointed out with Iran providing drones and also missiles to Russia. And President Trump has made
it clear as part of what's coming in the Middle East to support Israel, he is going to reimpose maximum pressure, sanctions, and oversight on the
Islamic Republic. He claims and so do part of the incoming administration that the goal is a new, better, stronger, more robust deal with Iran that
would constrain Iran's nuclear program. But this time there would have to be a regional element to it. I think this is where the past 14 months of
Israel's effort against Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran also very much matters.
The groups have been degraded. Iran certainly looks back footed and weakened, and the Islamic Republic has, over the past few weeks, been
messaging unity, but perhaps also an intention to come to the negotiating table.
AMANPOUR: And indeed, they seem to be sending signals even to the incoming Trump administration with, you know, various different meetings reported
and then denied, but you know how it all plays out in public.
Now, as to the Lebanon ceasefire. So, it's mostly holding, but you heard what Lebanon said, the army, the people who are actually meant to go in
there and replace Hezbollah's authority are saying that Israel has breached it. And this is what Prime Minister Netanyahu said because I believe he
said this a while ago when he announced the ceasefire. This is what he said about what Israel will continue to do.
[13:10:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The duration of it will depend on what happens in Lebanon. We keep a whole
freedom for military freedom, and if Hezbollah will rearm itself, we will attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, apparently, they did attack today on what they call a terrorist emplacement. How should we be looking at this? Is this the
inevitable sort of leftovers of a major, you know, confrontation or do you think this ceasefire is not worth the paper it's been written on?
VAKIL: Too early to say, really. It's a very important ceasefire. We should celebrate it. Above all for the people in Lebanon and also in
Israel, their security has been damaged on both sides. So, much displacement and lives lost. But this is going to be a very fragile deal.
One that will ultimately see the imposition of U.N. Security Council Resolution 1701 hopefully be implemented. Hezbollah has to move back beyond
the Litani River. The U.N. and Lebanese Armed Forces are going to have to patrol this border area.
And so, it's a lot to put on this Lebanese institution that is underfunded and has been under pressure. The U.N. also needs to have a more robust role
and a lot can go wrong, as we have just seen.
AMANPOUR: Not just under pressure, the Lebanese army, but the whole idea of Lebanese sovereignty has been dramatically compromised over the last few
years for a whole number of reasons, including that they have a government within a government or a state within a state with its own militia,
Hezbollah, right, which is weakened.
But do you think there is space right now for the army, the Lebanese army to, you know, make a new reality, to draw a line under this or is this
going to be really tough?
VAKIL: I mean, it is a historic opportunity. Hezbollah is the actor that has breached Lebanon's sovereignty above all. And so, if there has ever
been a chance in two decades to demilitarize Hezbollah, this is it. But it does require a robust support from the International Community, funding and
financing to support the Lebanese Armed Forces, and a movement to a political process that Lebanese government has announced after two years of
not having a president and having a caretaker government that they are planning to elect a president in early January.
So, this has to be very carefully supported by the International Community, above all, in order to make sure there's accountability on Hezbollah,
accountability on Israel and to contain a situation that can really easily break.
AMANPOUR: Obviously, the United States, obviously, the Biden administration needs some kind of a legacy out of this complete and utter,
you know, devastation. They think that the Hezbollah model, the ceasefire model there, might be transposed to the much trickier part, which is Hamas
and Israel. You know, I mean, there have been umpteen shuttle diplomacies, umpteen meetings, umpteen mediated ceasefire, none of them have come to
anything except for once a year ago.
What is -- what are you hearing, thinking about the possibility of a ceasefire with Gaza or a resolution of that?
VAKIL: I mean, I think that's where the energy is urgently needed. This war has gone on for far too long. Again, the impact on ordinary
Palestinians, 44,000 people have died is just tragic. Going into a harsh and heavy winter without adequate humanitarian aid and suggestion coming
from sort of right-wing Israeli politicians inside Netanyahu's coalition, that Gaza should be further depopulated. So, this is a very dangerous and
explosive situation.
Can we get to a ceasefire in such a short time? You know, Hamas has made sort of suggestions, but at the same time, it's unclear if either side,
both Netanyahu's government and Hamas are willing to make the compromises that are needed. For 14 months, Israel hasn't been able to impose that
ceasefire.
AMANPOUR: And there's plenty of reporting that Israel hasn't wanted to or this government has also been responsible for roadblocking as much as
Hamas. But here's the thing, Hamas, I think we know from what's been written and what's been telegraphed, really thought that they could drag in
a regional war against Israel and that they -- all they had to do was wait it out, time was on their side. That's clearly a bad miscalculation. Sinwar
has been assassinated. Hezbollah chief has been assassinated.
Do you think Hamas will be more likely to try to get a ceasefire even if it's not the hard line Sinwar terms, because he's no longer there anymore,
and what he stood for is being eradicated, essentially?
[13:15:00]
VAKIL: I think the terms and conditions of the ceasefire will very much matter for Hamas. They are thinking about their political future and their
legitimacy. While they have been devastated and lost key important leaders over the past 14 months, they're not completely eradicated. And they still,
I think, have an ambition of being part of whatever governance system can come to Palestine in the future. So, they will be playing for that. They
will be playing to their population and trying to make sure that they are protected in some way, at least in terms of providing food and aid and
security, which is, you know, difficult to think about right now.
And more broadly, beyond that, they still hold all of these hostages. And that's, of course, their card that they are going to play in exchange for
the release of Palestinian prisoners. And that might give Hamas some credibility in this period where we don't know what the Trump
administration is really going to do, and the issue of Palestine remains really key for regional security, Palestinian sovereignty, ultimately, and
Israel.
AMANPOUR: Sanam Vakil, head of the Middle East Program at Chatham House here in London, thank you so much.
Now, coming up after the break, we'll take you to the occupied West Bank, and we'll get the American perspective of this multi-pronged war with
former Ambassador to Lebanon, Ryan Crocker.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. So, as the world prepares for a second Trump term, the unresolved war between Israel and Gaza still rages, and over on the
occupied West Bank, Palestinians there fear a similar fate. Trump has chosen the former Republican governor of Arkansas, Mike Huckabee, as his
ambassador to Israel, a selection praised by the religious and far right- wing there. He openly talks about annexing the occupied West Bank.
Nic Robertson reports from there on how this personnel choice could turbocharge the already expanding settler presence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FMR. GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE (R-AR): There is no such thing as a West Bank. It's Judea and Samaria.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Mike Huckabee and at times controversial visitor to Israel looks set to return as President-Elect Donald Trump's pick to be
ambassador. If he does, he'll have plenty of friends. Yishai Fleisher, an activist and settler, has met with Huckabee many times.
YISHAI FLEISHER, SETTLER LEADER: He happens to be a great friend of Israel, and of the kind of Israel that I represent, that lives in its
ancestral heartland, which is Judea and Samaria, what on CNN may be called the West Bank.
ROBERTSON: Even the occupied West Bank?
FLEISHER: Right, even occupied West Bank, but we don't see it that way.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): But the history of the West Bank is complex and deeply disputed. Under international law Israel is deemed to be occupying
the land.
[13:20:00]
Huckabee will be arriving when settler violence against Palestinians is significantly up over Trump's last administration, and the Israeli
government's claim to the land is at its most politically charged in years. Powerful right-wing nationalists in the government want to annex the entire
occupied West Bank. So, too does Fleisher.
FLEISHER: We're still fighting a war of liberation for that piece of land.
ROBERTSON: And is Huckabee going to be helpful in that liberation?
FLEISHER: I think he will be.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): 50 miles north, on the fringes of the West Bank Palestinian village Bardala, Israeli diggers are gouging out a new barrier
through the middle of Palestinian farms, on land, they say, is a security risk.
The Israeli government is in the process of taking more land. The head of the council tells me claiming no security threats here.
What the media is talking about with Huckabee is already happening, he says. These actions are part of Israel's systematic policies to occupy and
annex all of this land. Their goal is to drive us out of this area.
He shows me documents he says proved Palestinian families have owned this land for more than a century. As we talk, Israeli troops show up to serve
an eviction notice on the farmer below. It's been told his buildings are unlicensed.
ROBERTSON: What he's saying is this document is the official document informing him that he has to be off this land by 9:00 a.m. on the 4th of
December, otherwise all of this, he loses it.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Khalid (ph) is 60 years old, heartbroken.
I don't know how to describe my feelings to you. He says, this is my livelihood. My children rely on it. Then someone comes along and takes it
away. You can't argue with them. We have no power. They have the power.
ROBERTSON: In the villages around here, they call this silent annexation. Little by little, the Palestinians losing their land to Israeli settlement
expansion.
ALON PINKAS, FORMER ISRAELI DIPLOMAT: If Israel unilaterally annexes large parts, large swaths of the West Bank, this is not going to fly well in the
Arab world.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Pinkas is a former Israeli diplomat. Believes Huckabee's settler friends could harm Trump's bigger objectives, Saudi-
Israel normalization.
PINKAS: He's going to be pressured by the Saudis, the Qataris, and the Emiratis to strike a bigger deal. He's going to want to build on the
Abraham Accords.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT-ELECT: Saudi Arabia very soon --
ROBERTSON (voice-over): The price of which Trump's biggest regional friend, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, says is a Palestinian
State.
MOHAMMAD SHTAYYEH, FORMER PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY PRIME MINISTER: Maybe there is an opportunity with Saudi Arabia for us, and that is why we're
closely coordinating with Saudi Arabia.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): The Palestinian Authority's former prime minister believes it's Trump's friends who'll triumph in influencing the Israeli
government, not Huckabee's.
SHTAYYEH: This man is not the one who will be dictating the shots. He's a player. He's an important player, but he's not the player. He's not the
president.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): By the time Huckabee arrives, more land, like Farmer Khalid's (ph), will have been seized. What will the future hold, he
says. It's a question everyone here is asking.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Nardala (ph) in the occupied West Bank.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: To talk more about American leadership and influence in the Middle East, I'm joined now by the veteran diplomat, Ryan Crocker. He's
been U.S. ambassador to a host of countries, from Lebanon to Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Now, he's at the RAND Global Policy Think Tank.
Ambassador Crocker, thank you for joining me from Spokane, Washington.
Let me first ask you the Huckabee question, in which he told Israeli Army Radio, It was, of course, possible that the U.S. would back Israeli
government if it wanted to do annexing of the occupied West Bank. Do you think that could really happen?
RYAN CROCKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO LEBANON, SYRIA AND PAKISTAN AND DISTINGUISHED CHAIR IN DIPLOMACY AND SECURITY, RAND: It's very hard to
say. It would be an extremely dangerous step if it were. Israel is now in a pretty good place regionally after the ceasefire with Hezbollah, it has
firm relations now with five Arab states and a prospect of expanding that to Saudi Arabia, which would be a huge strategic shift in the region. All
of that could be put in jeopardy by irresponsible moves on the West Bank. There is only one viable way forward, as distant as that may seem now,
Christiane, and that's a two-state solution.
[13:25:00]
AMANPOUR: It does seem distant and it's something that Netanyahu and his coalition partners have simply rejected. They've put no political policy
forward around their military operations. So, I want to ask you also about the Saudi thing because I think they all believe that's a big prize. But
the Saudi foreign minister told CNN just recently that Saudi Arabia would never normalize relations with Israel. It would be off the table without
Palestinians being granted an independent state.
How do you read that? Do you think they would hold to that word? And they also, they want Israel out of Gaza.
CROCKER: I think it's a question of process and of not foreclosing eventual options that could lead to a satisfactory end to this long running
conflict. It means not foreclosing options. I don't think it means delivering a final settlement. I think the Saudis would engage with Israel,
possibly to the point of a formal peace if they see that there is something moving on the Palestinian side, both in Gaza and the West Bank.
So, it's important to get a process started and a commitment to that process not to achieve an end result, which could be very far in the
future. But I think that seeing some movement politically on the Palestinian problem is vital to Israel's long-term security and stability.
AMANPOUR: Which clearly the Biden administration wants to at least start before leaving office. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan tells CNN,
Hamas is isolated. Hamas is now under pressure. All eyes are going to be on Hamas. There is now new found opportunity and possibility to drive forward
a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza. Do you agree with Sullivan's assessment from the U.S. perspective right now at this point?
CROCKER: I think it's worth every effort we can make to push for a ceasefire in Gaza that leads to the release of the remaining hostages. The
terms of that that deal I think have been clear for some time. It would be hostages in return for a number of Palestinian detainees in Israel. This
would be a small step, but a critical one.
And I think in the Middle East, as we've seen in Lebanon, thinking small and going for what is possible is the way to go. So, the ceasefire in the
North, I think, brings more focus on the continuing conflict in the South between Hamas and Israel, but it also points to a way forward. Again,
thinking small, getting a ceasefire, getting the hostages released in exchange for a number of Palestinian prisoners and then moving from there.
AMANPOUR: And what is your opinion on the state or the relative state of - - it's clear Hamas' military operation has been totally degraded. Hezbollah has been severely pushed back and its weapons have been you know, exploded
in this past, you know, two weeks of war, which means Iran is a little on the back foot and probably seeking to figure out how to best work with the
new Trump administration. How do you see all those bits playing as a longtime diplomat in that region?
CROCKER: There are just a lot of moving parts here. I think most fundamentally it's important not to confuse a tactical and operational
success with strategic victory. One hard lesson I've learned over the years is that defeat only has meaning in the eyes and the minds of those that are
presumed to be defeated. If they think they're defeated, they are. If they're not, they're not. We learned that the hard way in Iraq and in
Afghanistan. And while Hezbollah has suffered huge reversals, it is not at all clear to me that they feel defeated. Similarly with Hamas in Gaza.
So, again huge operational success by Israel assisted by the U.S. and Lebanon. Similarly, unquestioned operational success in Gaza, but this is a
very long game and this is the time to move to diplomacy to make some small agreements, like the ceasefire in Lebanon, and try to build from there.
AMANPOUR: And at a cost of so many tens of thousands of civilian lives as well. I want to ask you to comment on news that Syria's rebels appear to be
exploiting the moment right now from Aleppo, I think it was. In any event, they targeted Iran-backed proxies inside Syria. That's pretty bold right
now, isn't it?
[13:30:00]
CROCKER: It is. This is the al Qaeda breakaway organization that is backed, as I understand it, by Turkey, that clearly has some real
capability. And obviously, the regime they're fighting, the Bashar al-Assad regime, is a horrific government, but we've got to also understand who
Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham is. It is a radical Islamist movement that is in no way a friend of the west.
AMANPOUR: All right.
CROCKER: Nor a friend of stability in greater Syria. So, you know, that conflict will pull on and this offensive may open a new chapter, but I
don't think it is the pathway to any lasting peace or stability in Syria.
AMANPOUR: It's an interesting move at this point. Ambassador Ryan Crocker, thank you very much for joining us on this day. Thank you.
And we will be right back after this short break with the rest of the program.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. Now, gold prices keep breaking records this year, rising more than 30 percent in 2024. The West African nation of Ghana is
the largest gold producer on the continent, but alongside its legitimate mining industry, illegals small scaling -- small scale mining is also
booming. Local residents fear that it is poisoning their water and devastating their forest. Reporting for CNN's As Equal series, Larry Madowo
explores the impact of Ghana's gold rush.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sound of the gold rush in Ghana, where a multi-billion-dollar industry gets around 40 percent of
its gold production from small scale mining, but people here are raising the alarm of a potentially devastating consequences.
MADOWO: This is the reality of the environmental catastrophe that is galamsey, illegal gold mining. So much of the land is dug up and destroyed,
hoping to strike gold. And this water makes its way right back into communities that have no alternative.
[13:35:00]
MADOWO (voice-over): Locals, including female miners here in Western Ghana fear the brown murky water that now flows in these rivers is contaminated
by the mining process. They believe it is poisoning them and their unborn children.
MADOWO: Do you drink that water?
DIANA AGYEIWAA, SAMREBOI RESIDENT: No, seriously, no, because I fear for my life. I fear that if I give that water to her, she may die.
MADOWO (voice-over): Diana Agyeiwaa says other mothers and babies in the community have been affected.
AGYEIWAA: I met one woman, when she delivered a baby, the nose was somehow half. I've seen a lot of deformities on babies.
MADOWO (voice-over): Scientists in Ghana have begun studying the potential impact of illegal small-scale mining on maternal health. No definitive
links have been found. But across the world, the impact of heavy metals such as mercury used in mining on maternal health have been documented by
scientists.
MADOWO: When you measured the concentration of heavy metals within these fetuses, what did you find?
DR. LAWRENCE AGYEMANG, MEDICAL OFFICER, KOMFO ANOKYE TEACHING HOSPITAL: We found enormous numbers of these heavy metals including mercury, lead,
arsenic, cadmium.
MADOWO: And what was the effect of the heavy metals on the actual fetuses?
DR. AGYEMANG: Bad. We saw very bad presentations with babies with gross abnormalities, like a shrunken head.
MADOWO (voice-over): The World Health Organization says exposure to mercury, even small amounts, may cause serious health problems and is a
threat to development of the child. But in Ghana, miners like Sarah Akosua, who wears plastic in an attempt to protect herself, say there's no other
option to earn a living.
I know very well that the chemicals can be very harmful, but we don't have a choice, she says. We have to force and keep up with what we're doing.
When you get sick, you go to the hospital, get medication, and then you come back and continue with the work. Because when you stop, there's
nothing for you to do.
MADOWO (voice-over): And thanks to an increase in the price of gold, the economic benefits are clear.
MADOWO: How much was this gold you just bought?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 3,300.
MADOWO (voice-over): That's about $200.
MADOWO: And it's very tiny. Where did you get it from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I get it from the galamsey.
MADOWO (voice-over): Protests over the illegal mining have called out the harmful impact on the water supply's millions depend on. The government
says it is working on solutions, including teaching safer mining practices, providing mercury free processing machines, and alternative livelihoods.
MARTIN AYISI, CEO, MINERALS COMMISSION OF GHANA: These are things that will not be, you know, achieve overnight.
MADOWO (voice-over): The CEO of Ghana's Minerals Commission agrees there's a problem.
AYISI: A lot of work has been done by our scientists. They've taken samples from some of these water bodies, and there's that report that, yes,
heavy metals are all over the place.
MADOWO (voice-over): Ghana's military was deployed recently to shut down illegal mines, but the task is immense. Mining used to legally take place
in about five regions. It's now in about 13, he says.
AYISI: So, it's part of our DNA. It's like coffee or tea in Kenya. We've been mining all these years.
MADOWO (voice-over): But the scientist leading the research into the impact on women and children told CNN Ghana faces an existential threat if
illegal mining at this scale continues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Larry Madowo reporting, keeping the focus on from Ghana for CNN As Equals. When we come back, power, corruption and political intrigue at
the Vatican. My conversation with director Edward Berger about his new movie "Conclave." That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. And we turn now to a movie which takes you deep inside the Vatican's marbled corridors of power. Here's a clip
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pope is dead. The throne is vacant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They say a heart attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know how rumor spreads, and one and a quarter billion souls watching.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well done, Lawrence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems the responsibility for the conclave falls upon you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Conclave is a thriller by the award-winning director Edward Berger, who's perhaps best known for his stunning World War I epic, "All
Quiet on the Western Front." This latest film, with its star-studded cast, Ralph Fiennes, John Lithgow, Stanley Tucci, Isabella Rossellini is based on
Robert Harris' 2016 novel, which purports to lift the lid on the highly secretive and politicized process of choosing a new pope. Berger came here
into the studio this week, and I started by asking him what drew him to this project.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Edward Berger, welcome to the program.
EDWARD BERGER, DIRECTOR, "CONCLAVE": Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: What was it, when you read the book or the script, that made you want to do it? The intrigue, the sort of richness of this, and the
corruption involved?
BERGER: Well, to me, it played in a very similar field to what you're doing every day, reporting on politics. It was -- it's a political film for
me. It had all the political intrigue of it. So, I found that very interesting. But, obviously, in a setting that we can sort of transpose, so
we don't have to see another political film when we see the news every day, so we can transpose.
But there was one line in the script that I really loved and it said -- in the stage direction, not even a dialogue, it said, out of the crooked
timber of humanity, no string -- straight thing was ever made. And that was sort of really what we wanted to say with the film that everyone has this -
- something crooked, you know.
AMANPOUR: And boy do we see it, because this, of course, is the conclave that leads to the election of another pope after the other one is dead.
It's an endless and historical event, and yet, we very rarely see it portrayed. You certainly don't see it in reality.
Where did you get your evidence or your stories about how to film it? Is it -- is the actual conclave true to life?
BERGER: I think we have to ask a cardinal, because those are the only ones that will be really able to tell us, but they won't because it's obviously
secret. They're probably just watching and go like, oh, this is right. And so, I think Robert Harris is obviously a very wonderful novelist and a
great researcher. And we had access to all his research. We talked to a whole array of cardinals who gave us signs (ph).
And then, I had a really great religion teacher next to me from Rome, Francesco Bonomio (ph), every single day, and he was my adviser, and he
told me this is what they would do. This is -- now, this is the prayer, this is the oath, this is the way they vote. But at some point, he also
said, you know what? No one knows. So --
AMANPOUR: What we know, because I've reported on at least one election of a pope, is it's the black smoke and the white smoke. The white smoke --
BRUNHUBER: That smoke, everyone.
AMANPOUR: Everybody knows it, right? So, we wait and wait. And there's several rounds in this film until you get -- or until they get, the
cardinals get to a super majority to elect the next pope. What I found really interesting is the power struggle between reformist cardinals and
the very traditionalist cardinals. And that is portrayed, I think, pretty well in this clip which is Cardinal Lawrence. He is played by Ralph Fiennes
talking to Cardinal Bellini, who is played by Stanley Tucci. Let's listen.
[13:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RALPH FIENNES, ACTOR, "CONCLAVE": Father Bellini.
STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR, "CONCLAVE": Aldo.
FIENNES: Am I the last one?
TUCCI: Not quite.
FIENNES: How are you?
TUCCI: Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful. Have you seen the papers? Apparently, it's already decided, it's going to be me.
FIENNES: And I happen to agree with them.
TUCCI: What if I don't want it? No sane man would want the papacy.
FIENNES: Some of our colleagues seem to want it.
TUCCI: What if I know in my heart that I'm not worthy?
FIENNES: You are more worthy than any of us.
TUCCI: I'm not.
FIENNES: Well, then until your support is not a vote for you, pass the chalice.
TUCCI: And let it go to him? Then I could never live with myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's interesting and it's also varied today. I mean, Pope Francis has been the reformer or at least tried to be, and he's had so
much pushback from cardinals who are much, much more traditional. Was that something you wanted to focus on?
BERGER: Definitely. I mean, we wanted to represent the current politics of the Vatican, but also current world politics, and they're almost the same,
you know, they're, I mean --
AMANPOUR: Explain that.
BERGER: Well, you know, there's traditionalist, what, populist movements, and there's sort of liberals all over the world, you know, and that -- and
these parties, they've sort of lost the ability to listen to each other, you know, and basically, everyone's a fundamentalist in their opinion and
they're not really communicating anymore. Everyone's, this has to be this way and the other party says it has to be this way, and they're clashing
constantly.
AMANPOUR: There's something I think you said about -- well, the Ralph Fiennes' character, Cardinal Lawrence, and the sort of, not demons, but the
conflicts he has within him about his beliefs, about prayer, about all sorts of things. That's also quite interesting to portray, because you
always think of these people as being absolutely clear in their faith and in their main storyline.
BERGER: Yes. And that's what really drew me to the film. Ralph has one wonderful speech about doubt versus certainty, and that's also liberalism
versus, you know, all opinions, you know, doubt versus certainty and about being very certain about what you believe in. And he's not right now. And
he wants to have a discussion and he wants to find it. And that's something I've really identified with and why I wanted to make the film, because I
think a lot of people feel that at some point in their lives, it's like, am I doing the right thing? Am I in the right job? Am I in the right life? And
trying to find your direction in life as does Ralph in the film. So, that's something for all us in a way.
AMANPOUR: It's obvious that all the Christian churches and many other religions, they face very deep internal problems, certainly in the Catholic
Church and recently, as you've seen here in the Church of England, very deep issues about sexual abuse, about the unaccountability of unelected
power, the resignations, the expulsions. How did you deal with that in this movie, if at all?
BERGER: Yes, it's not a movie about that.
AMANPOUR: No, I know.
BERGER: We didn't want to do a let's say an investigation of the -- it's really a different subject matter. So, we spoke about it and we hinted at
it because we obviously said, we can't do a movie without ever mentioning it. That would be sort of putting the blinders on. So, we mentioned it two
or three times throughout the movie. But there's other movies like "Spotlight" who really investigate that.
I think it's a subject matter where you need a whole movie to dedicate yourself and not just sort of a little topic on the side.
AMANPOUR: No, no, I understand. But for instance, you have one cardinal who is derailed because of a, quote/unquote, "MeToo incident." I mean,
there's -- and that's in itself a sort of conspiracy where another cardinal brings this young woman over, essentially to derail this black African
cardinal's chances. I thought that was very powerful because it talked about that issue, but it also, I think, subliminally there was, if I'm not
mistaken, commentary about, can we really have a first black -- a pope? So, that's an issue.
BERGER: Oh, definitely. I'm, you know, it's an issue in the church. You know, I think there's a lot of -- I mean, the church has a problem in the
way -- or the Catholicism has a problem that used to be all Italian until 50 years ago, there were like for 500 years, Italian popes. And there are a
lot of Italians and they're in the -- you know, there's maybe 50, 60 cardinals now, Italian cardinals. And obviously, they want their Italian
again. They hate anyone from any other country, you know, most of them at least.
And so, but their fraction is not big enough, you know to really vote Italian. So, that is always an issue, you know that -- you know, foreigners
in general in Italy is a difficult thing for the church to accept and then and having an African cardinal is probably, you know, the worst for some of
them, unfortunately.
AMANPOUR: So, I want to ask you, because, you know, we talked about reaction and stuff. I don't know whether you've heard or what you've seen
on audience reaction. What has been -- what have you noticed from audiences? Online or wherever?
BERGER: Well, I don't look.
AMANPOUR: No, OK.
BERGER: Because it's just -- so I'm glad that you can read it to me now.
[13:50:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, I'm actually going to read you a reaction from the church. It was released last month, as we know, in the United States. And as you
can imagine, in the United States, which has a significant faction of very traditionalist cardinals.
This bishop, Robert Barron, who's a Minnesota cardinal, tweeted this, and this is just bits of it. If you're interested in a film about the Catholic
Church that could have been written by the editorial board of The New York Times, this is your movie. Since it checks practically every woke box, I'm
sure it'll win a boatload of awards. But my advice is to run away from it as fast as you can. So, that's one.
And then there's Thomas Reese, who's a Jesuit, more liberal leaning. He told -- and he was a persistent critic of Pope Benedict, he told CNN, if
I'm not mistaken, the acting and production values were great, but the plot twists were bizarre and unbelievable. Answer those reactions.
BERGER: Well, you know, it's -- I mean, there's going to be a million opinions and the Catholic Church doesn't speak with one voice. As you can
see, everyone's going to have an opinion. And I would say, you know from -- I heard from a lot of cardinals before there's, oh, we're going to watch
the movie. And I believe that they're just going to enjoy it and going to say, it's just a movie, you know, as in terms of the plot twist.
And that, you know, I was speaking about fundamentalism earlier, especially in the U.S., I think the U.S. Catholics, U.S. in general, very often is
more fundamentalist than the European side, and I find it very hard to refute or discuss with fundamentals because they don't really actually want
to listen.
AMANPOUR: But they also have very vested interests. I mean, they really believe that the Catholic Church has to still be, I mean, probably speaking
Latin, and all of the congregants have to be speaking Latin. It is a power struggle. And then, there's the final twist. Are we going to talk about it
here?
BERGER: It's going to be difficult.
AMANPOUR: It is, isn't it?
BERGER: Well, I think what we can talk about is -- I mean, that there's, you know, obviously women don't have much of a voice in the church.
AMANPOUR: Actually, let's talk about that, because you're right. Isabella Rossellini, the wonderful actress, daughter of Ingrid Bergman, and I -- you
know, Ingrid Bergman did a famous film where she portrayed a nun, if I'm not mistaken.
BERGER: Yes. "The Bells of St. Mary's."
AMANPOUR: Oh, there you go. And suddenly, to see her daughter look so like her was really quite amazing. But she also stood up for women. She said,
you know, we may not have a voice, but we have ears. And she was very clear on trying to root out some of the Machiavellian power intrigues. But again,
for Catholics, it's like, when are we going to have women elected to some position at least of power in the church? That was something you thought
about.
BERGER: Absolutely. I mean, femininity is a really important part of this movie, even though -- even a person like Isabella, a person with the
biggest aura and charisma in the world is relegated to the 30th line, row in the back of the Catholic Church, having to be silent. And she finally
opens her voice and everyone kind of applauds her, at least in the audience, you know. But she's not the only thing of feminine -- not the
only element of femininity in the film.
AMANPOUR: When you say femininity, do you mean feminism or actual femininity?
BERGER: Femininity and feminism, you know.
AMANPOUR: OK.
BERGER: I mean, both, I would say.
AMANPOUR: I don't want to put words in your mouth.
BERGER: No, I would say femininity.
AMANPOUR: OK.
BERGER: The femininity element. But as there is no femininity in the Catholic Church, I would say that's a feminist voice, you know. And there's
something in the end and -- that we can't really talk about, but at least Ralph has seen a crack in the foundation of this old patriarchy. And
there's a light that shines through that crack. And that's that light is the change for hope -- the hope for change, you know, that the future is
possibly also feminine.
AMANPOUR: My goodness, this is really interesting and we're not going to say it, but I have to say, as a viewer, I mean, you ended it right there. I
mean, on a cliff, right? You have this big reveal and the film ends. And I'm like, oh, can we just have some more? What does this mean?
BERGER: Oh, the film could have been longer, OK.
AMANPOUR: Not about longer, maybe.
BERGER: Yes. Well, it means exactly that, you know, it's the oldest patriarchy in the world and possibly it's time for a change. You know, that
is not -- I mean, which structure has -- what has that? And I think to be open for that change and to open your doors towards, you know, the feminine
voice and voices from anywhere, I mean, would be quite interesting, you know, and, actually, you know, advantageous for the organization, I
believe.
AMANPOUR: Well, you can imagine that many Catholic women believe that as well. And finally, just the filming, obviously, "All Quiet on the Western
Front" was completely different look. This, you -- was a lot inside structures clearly, a lot of walking and whispering in corridors, but it
was a lot of light and shade that you used. Tell me about that. What was that to do?
BERGER: Well, there's a director called Alan Pakula who did a lot of political thrillers in the '70s. "All the President's Men" for example.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes.
[13:55:00]
BERGER: Great Washington Watergate scandal movie. And he works really well with precision and architecture and light and shade, and he was sort of the
inspiration for this movie. And I wanted to exact -- you know, do exactly the opposite than in "All Quiet," make it very sort of closed quarter. I
mean, feel the oppression, feel the claustrophobia of a conclave. They're locked away for a few weeks. The shutters go down, the sound is off. You
don't hear anything. You don't see anything from outside. So, that by the end, when Ralph does see this hope for change, it's almost a relief when
the shutters open and the air comes back in and the light comes back in and you hear feminine laughter outside. Three nuns laughing.
AMANPOUR: That's how you end.
BERGER: And so, that's the end of the movie. Yes. And that's sort of maybe a little bit of a relief that we found progress.
AMANPOUR: Great. Well done.
BERGER: Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
BERGER: Thank you for watching it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, tonight, a historic snowstorm in South Korea has turned much of Seoul, including a zoo, into a winter wonderland. And some
of its most famous residents are literally chilling out. These are South Korea's first ever twin panda cubs seeing snow for the very first time. As
you can see, they don't seem too pleased by -- too phased, rather, by their new conditions and they're still playing around in the snow.
That's it for now. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
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