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Amanpour
Interview with Former Pakistani Ambassador to the U.S. Husain Haqqani; Interview with Sugarcane Co-Director Julian Brave NoiseCat; Interview with Sugarcane Co-Director Emily Kassie; Interview with Musician, Songwriter, and Producer Jack Antonoff. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired November 29, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the program. Welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Syrian rebels say they've entered Aleppo for the first time since 2016. We will have the latest from the region. Then, Pakistan's capital is turned
upside down in antigovernment protests. I'll speak to the former Pakistani ambassador to the U.S., Husain Haqqani. Plus, Canada reckons with a dark
past. "Sugarcane" is a new documentary exploring the horrific abuse with indigenous boarding schools run by the Catholic Church. The filmmakers join
me. And also, ahead, five years after a fire destroyed parts of Notre Dame, the iconic cathedral reopens its doors for a presidential preview. We are
live in Paris.
And a very warm welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Paula Newton in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour. And we do begin this hour in
Syria, where opposition forces have now entered Aleppo for the first time since government forces recaptured the city in 2016. The surprise offensive
is now reigniting a conflict that had been largely static for years.
A statement by a newly formed rebel umbrella coalition says clashes with Syrian forces intensified overnight into Friday morning. Analysts say the
rebels are exploiting a vacuum left by a weakened Hezbollah and they are now advancing in Syria. Ben Wedeman has been tracking the latest
developments. And, Ben, there have been quite a few developments in the last few hours. Can you give us the very latest on what appears to be a
significant rebel offensive on Aleppo?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, since the morning, the rebels which they're going under the name of Military
Operations Command are saying that they have entered Aleppo. Now, it appears they've entered parts of Western Aleppo. This is part of an
offensive that began on Wednesday, and then, since then they've taken control of almost 70 villages in the western part of Aleppo Province and
now it does appear that they have entered, as I said, western parts of Aleppo. Parts of Aleppo that until now have always been under government
control.
Now, the rebels were expelled by government forces in 2016 but there were parts of the city that the government has always controlled, but it appears
that some of those areas are now under rebel control. Now, we are seeing, for instance, that the Syrian military has put out a statement saying that
they are reinforcing all locations along the various battlefronts. But, of course, perhaps the last 24 hours, there were no battlefronts in Aleppo
itself, the front was to the east, to the north, and to the west of Aleppo, but certainly, not within the city itself.
And we are hearing from residents of Aleppo that they are seeing regime forces retreating from western districts of the city. And so, this
definitely is a sign severe blow to the regime of Bashar al-Assad, which, since 2016, has put some effort into reconstructing parts of Aleppo,
including the ancient city, the old city of Aleppo itself.
NEWTON: Now, when we've been discussing this, the Syrian opposition forces had been seen, as you point out, as diminished in recent years, but now,
they've -- you know, you point out on the outskirts of Aleppo, they had captured dozens of towns, some villages, even Syrian military buildings and
bases. But the fact that they're pushing into Syria's second largest city, I mean, how did they come to accomplish this seemingly quite quickly?
WEDEMAN: Well, it's not altogether clear. Now, it does appear that, you know, the fact that Hezbollah, which entered the Syrian civil war and
really was key to saving the regime of Bashar al-Assad, has pulled out largely from Syria as a result of the war between Israel and Hezbollah in
the southern part of Lebanon, and therefore, has left the Syrian regime somewhat exposed.
[13:05:00]
Now, I've seen Hezbollah forces in action. They're fairly well trained, well-disciplined which contrasts rather markedly with the Syrian army,
which is rife with corruption, morale is very low, and certainly, morale is very low among the rank and file. Therefore, the Syrian government is
weakened and exposed as a result, not just of Hezbollah pulling its forces out of Syria, but also the fact that Iran, which is the main regional
backer for the regime in Damascus, has taken a series of blows from Israel in Syria itself, as well as in Iran.
And of course, we've seen that the Iranian media is reporting that a brigadier general for the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps was killed in
Aleppo in the last few days. And finally, Russia, which intervened in the Syrian civil war in September 2015, basically saved the regime, has been
distracted by the war in Ukraine.
Now, there's still Russian air and ground forces in Syria. But certainly, what we're seeing is that they have not been able to stop this lightning
rebel offensive and it doesn't appear -- despite reports of some airstrikes on Idlib City, which is where the headquarters of this new umbrella
coalition of rebel forces is located, but that doesn't seem to have blunted the offensive at this point.
NEWTON: Ben, we will leave it there for now as we continue. I'm sure these are going to be consequential hours and days to come to see what happens
next. Ben Wedeman for us, appreciate it.
Now, to Pakistan, where the country's capital was turned upside down this week by protesters demanding the release of Former Prime Minister Imran
Khan. Khan's supporters clashed with security forces who blocked roads leading to the capital. Police fired tear gas at protesters and carried out
mass arrests.
Khan and the PTI, opposition party, remain deeply popular, in fact, and have turbocharged a tense showdown with the country's powerful military
leaders.
Husain Haqqani is Pakistan's former ambassador to the United States, and he joins the program now. It is good to see you as we continue to try and
parse recent events in Pakistan, and that is no small order. More than 4,000 Khan supporters have been arrested and at least six people have been
killed.
I mean, can you tell us more about why these protests are happening and crucially, why they have become so violent recently?
HUSAIN HAQQANI, FORMER PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Imran Khan is a populist leader. He was quite popular and has a cult like following. He was
supported by the military in 2018, came to power as a result, fell out with the military, decided to accuse it of collaboration with the United States
and undermining his government. His followers believe most of what he says. His party lost the 2024 election. Aided by the military, of course, the
parties that are now in power and Imran Khan are locked in a showdown for the last several months.
Khan is in prison on corruption charges and other charges, just like every other politician in Pakistan has been charged in the past, but he has not
taken it in the same spirit. Instead of sitting in parliament, like others did in waiting their turn in another election, he has been telling his
supporters to get him released through revolution. And he gave what he called a final call, for the 24th, which was Sunday. Demonstrators came and
converged on Islamabad, about 25,000. The government used force against them.
There were several casualties on the side of security forces, and there were civilians who were killed. Now, the government maintains that it has
not killed people through gunfire, which seems to be untrue. But at the same time, Khan's party alleges that there was a massacre, which sounds
equally untrue.
In the end, this is going to remain a showdown between Pakistan's military, which wants to move on and focus on the economy, and Imran Khan, who has
made it all about himself.
NEWTON: In terms of this being all about him himself, one of his levers has always been his presence on social media, even as he's been
incarcerated. You know, we're seeing a crackdown now on the internet and on some journalists with government limiting the access to social media. You
know, he communicates sometimes very effectively through -- from jail with his supporters. As you just pointed out, he sent out a call.
[13:10:00]
In terms of the crackdown, though, on the internet and social media, how alarming is this for you, given Pakistan's at times very vulnerable
democracy?
HAQQANI: Look, it is all very alarming. Pakistan is not a full democracy. Pakistan has a hybrid military civilian system in which civilian parties
have vied at different times to try and get the military's favor. Khan was the military's favorite in the past. The military found him rather
intransigent and difficult on many issues. He caused breakdowns in Pakistan's relationships with foreign countries.
But then, as far as his supporters are concerned, who are very emotionally charged, generally very young, drawn from Pakistan's urban, unemployed,
youth and social media is the way to connect with them. So, the government says that all it is doing is trying to restore order, some semblance of
normalcy, and the business community seems to agree with that.
We look at the day after the crackdown on Tuesday, the Karachi stock exchange just boom. So, it seems that Pakistan is a polarized country. Khan
uses that polarization to his advantage. But right now, the military is trying to disconnect him and his supporters, and the use of force is going
to definitely discourage people from coming to protest the next time Khan's called them for the protest.
Secondly, Khan's party is in power in Pakistan's northwest province that borders Afghanistan. And basically, his strategy each time is that he calls
a protest, the government of that northwestern province organizes people to come and march on to Islamabad. The government says this is not a protest.
This is a kind of an attack on the capital and they are not going to accept that. And so, a lot of draconian measures taken, including arrest of
journalists, including crackdown on the internet. But at the end of the day, the problem will have to be solved through some dialogue. And at the
moment, Khan feels that he does not need one.
NEWTON: You seem to just indicate that he's an incendiary figure at this point in time, and yet, he remains very popular. Why do you believe that is
so? Because obviously, in certain sectors of society, there is still deep resentment in terms of what's happening in the economy, especially among
young people who feel that Pakistan can be so much more and have so much to offer the country.
HAQQANI: Absolutely. And their disaffection is Khan's greatest weapon. Look, Pakistan has had a hybrid democracy since 1988. It was interrupted
when General Musharraf took over. The military has helped build a narrative for the last three decades that Pakistan's major political parties that are
the flag bearers of democracy are essentially dynasties and run by corrupt people, and Khan has taken advantage of that narrative.
At the same time, those parties have not gone anywhere. And so, when the military switch sides, once again in 2022 and gave a signal to these
parties to vote Khan out through a vote of no confidence, his supporters felt that they had been cheated because he did not get a full term.
Although, none of Pakistan's politicians have had a full term.
He is basically taking advantage, of course, every politician would do that, of the disaffection of the people with the old parties and the fact
that the old parties have not connected with the youth like Khan has done.
Look, he's a celebrity. He was a cricketer before he became a politician. He was a philanthropist. And so, he built this image of himself as being
the non-politician politician. At the same time it did not succeed very much while he was prime minister in doing anything for the same people, but
he continues to fuel their disaffection.
NEWTON: Indeed.
HAQQANI: This is going to be a complicated situation for a long time.
NEWTON: Indeed. And geopolitically, there is a lot at stake. I'm wondering what reaction you've observed in Washington there about recent
developments.
HAQQANI: Well, I think that most governments in the world are worried about the trajectory of Pakistan. They would like Pakistan to become stable
again. Most of them do not have much affection for Khan, partly because of his mercurial temperament and personality. And his Uber Islamist
nationalism. And so, everybody's watching the situation, not much sympathy for Khan at the political level, but at the same time, concern that this
showdown should not go on too long.
Most of the things that most countries would like from Pakistan are deliverable by the military, which is the most effective part in the
country, whether we like it or not, not by any civilian leader. So, can Khan break that down is a million-dollar question, and the military is not
about to find out the answer. They intend to keep him in prison.
[13:15:00]
NEWTON: And that really leads me to my next question, which is significant. And it's the military's involvement in this crisis. You know,
it helped bring Khan to power at one time, but it could now try him in the country's secretive military court. I mean, where is your feeling? Where do
you think the military stands? Because in my observation in the last few years, it's been much more capricious, shall we say, and unpredictable than
I've known it to be in decades past. I've now dated myself, but you understand where I'm going with that.
HAQQANI: Well, I think that the capriciousness of the military is matched by the capriciousness of their political rival at the moment. Other
political leaders, Benazir Bhutto, removed from power, left power, criticized the military, but never organized attacks on it. As Khan, the
day he was arrested last year, ordered his followers to set fire to military installations. So, I think in a way he has burnt his bridges,
unlike other politicians. And so, this has become a bit of a zero-sum game. The military has all the power and Khan doesn't seem to get that.
NEWTON: Husain Haqqani, we will leave it there for now as we continue to follow the developments in Pakistan. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Now, coming up after the break, overcoming generational, intergenerational trauma. I'll speak with the filmmakers of a new documentary detailing the
horrific abuse endured by indigenous children in Kenya.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEWTON: And welcome back. As millions of Americans right around the world, in fact, celebrate Thanksgiving with their family and friends this week,
for many indigenous people, it's a day of reflection and mourning.
Over the border, Canadians are also reckoning with their painful colonial trauma. In 2021, evidence of unmarked graves was discovered on the grounds
of an Indian residential school run by the Catholic Church. Now, a new National Geographic documentary, "Sugarcane," investigates this abuse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you're brought up in an institution like the Catholic Church, you have strict rules and you went with their ethics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been trying to find out what happened at St. Joseph's Mission.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything was so secretive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My dad was born there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did it happen?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not something that you want to open up, you know, it just keeps on damaging.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:20:00]
NEWTON: Co-directors Julian Brave NoiseCat and Emily Kassie join me now. And it is a real privilege to be able to explore these issues with the both
of you after watching this incredibly painful, but engrossing documentary.
Julian, I do want to start with you. I mean, look I found it absolutely searing, very difficult to watch. And of course, I have the privilege of
being Canadian, but quite detached from the pain of your community. This is a very different kind of documentary. Julian, you, as one of the directors,
were also a leading protagonist, why tell this story this way and how do you feel it breaks new ground?
JULIAN BRAVE NOISECAT, CO-DIRECTOR, SUGARCANE: Well, thank you so much for having us. We think that this is such an important story and a foundational
one for North America and so, it really is meaningful to us to -- beyond not be a day after Thanksgiving to talk about our film.
You know, we took a very observational approach in the way that we chose to shoot and tell "Sugarcane," which means that unlike other documentaries
where you might see sit down, talking head type interviews, maybe kind of like the one that we're doing right now, we chose to live in and alongside
our protagonists in the community of Sugarcane, including in my own family, to show the way that not only, you know, the residential schools, you know,
create atrocities in the past, but also, continue to harm indigenous peoples in the present because, you know, this is obviously, on the one
hand, a foundational story to how this continent was taken and what happened first peoples, but it's also a story with consequences that
reverberate across generations today.
NEWTON: And indeed, we do. You have seen it, I'm sure, in your community since the day you were born. Emily, as we just said, these abuses took
place in hundreds of indigenous residential schools in North America. As Julian just said, it is literally a foundational documentary that you've
created here for the entire continent. I'm wondering, what did you learn about this systemic abuse that maybe you didn't know before this project
started?
EMILY KASSIE, CO-DIRECTOR, SUGARCANE: Well, you know, I didn't know much. I grew up in Canada and the last year of the residential schools in 1997
was my first year of kindergarten, and yet, I was taught nothing about it. We're talking about 150 years of forced child separations over six
generations of families, 417 schools in the United States and 139 in Canada that forced children into assimilationist programs. Many of those schools
were run by the Catholic Church, and the folks who ran the schools, under the clergy, carried out horrific abuses.
And I think what was groundbreaking about the film and the journalistic revelations that came from the investigation we were following was that not
only were there these abuses and forced labor systems, but there were also babies born at this school in particular, and those babies we uncovered
were adopted out into white families forcibly aborted, and in some cases, there was a pattern of infanticide where the babies were found in the
school's incinerator. And this is breaking new ground and was a complete revelation to us as well.
NEWTON: Yes. I mean, I have to say, there's a moment in the documentary, Emily, that just stops you in your tracks when you have a witness talking
about that very fact. Can you imagine throwing babies in incinerators?
Julian, a few of the people that are -- you speak to in this film really mentioned the utter disregard they've witnessed from authorities. One of
them, a woman named Rosalin, shares her story. But no one listening to her complaints of abuse even when she spoke so clearly about them, and think
about the bravery that it took to speak of it. I want everyone to listen to that now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSALIN SAM, SURVIVOR, ST. JOSEPH'S MISSION: Praise (ph). I was abused by Father Praise (ph). Nobody listen to me. I told my grandmother, she didn't
want to hear me talk about it. I went to the nun, she told me to tell the priest. I told the priest, he told me to tell the Indian agent, he told me
to the RCMP. I told the RCMP, he went and told my dad, and my dad beat the -- out of me. That's when I said, OK. I went and bought a bottle of wine
and I got drunk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:25:00]
NEWTON: You know, she later says she turned to addiction. Julian, at this point, when we talk about the utter lack of humanity, just being -- any of
your concerns, any of your pain, just being disregarded that way, how do we then try and turn this documentary to accountability, which is what so many
people want?
NOISECAT: Well, I think that to many of your viewers, this, you know, history is probably unknown. Maybe they heard a story or two about it, but
you know, this is really not something that broader society has reckoned with or talked about in any significant way. And that is also true for, you
know, the very families that survived these schools and institutions, you know, like my own.
So, you know, we feel very strongly that accountability begins, first of all, with the truth. You know, this is, as we say, a foundational story to
North America. This is what happened to indigenous peoples. This is what happened to our children. And at the very least, those families and all
people who called North America home, you know, deserve to know the truth. And that begins with opening up all the records, you know, the Catholic
Church and the governments that perpetrated these institutions in both Canada and the United States remain reluctant to open up all those records.
And, you know, before we can even get to questions of what, you know, a full sense of justice might look like, you know, we just need to know, at
the very least, what happened. And as we say, you know, this documentary breaks new ground on that. And if that's true, if these revelations are
true at one school, what might be true at the 138 others across Canada and the 417 across the United States?
NEWTON: And yet, the difficulty of getting to that truth, Emily, sometimes is actually silence, in the silence surrounding these schools, even within
the indigenous community. And of course, everyone can understand how painful it is. But do you believe this film has managed to help more
members in the community speak out?
KASSIE: Well, I think you got it exactly right that what was done was so horrific and people tried so hard to tell or be helped in some way that
eventually they started internalizing what was done to them. The silences were -- you know, within their own families and communities. And so, the
film is changing that.
And I think we feel incredibly proud that we've been able to bring it to indigenous communities across North America, hundreds of survivors,
thousands of survivors now that we've been able to show it to and people come up to us and say, I drove here, you know, five hours. And on my way
home, my father was finally able to tell me what happened to him, or I was finally able to forgive my parents. We've seen generations of families,
grandparents with their kids and their grandkids coming to see the film together. And that's really remarkable.
And beyond that, the film has been a part of a movement that helped bring about the apology from President Biden. And of course, just the other day,
a few days ago, Julian and I were showing the film in Canadian Parliament where Prime Minister Trudeau acknowledged the film and the role that it's
playing to change narrative and correct the record.
NEWTON: Julian, you know, you share your own story on working things out with your father. He was abandoned in one of the incinerators in St.
Joseph's, maybe the only survivor of those horrific events. You know, we go to this one scene where perhaps you start to explain and then understand
the intergenerational trauma. I want us to look at that scene now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NOISECAT: I guess I just feel like I'm here trying to help you, you know, when you don't really fully recognize the thing that we share. Your story
is someone who is abandoned, but also who abandoned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're looking for some kind of acknowledgement from me.
NOISECAT: No, I just feel like -- actually, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, tell me what you want, I'll write it. Whatever you want. You know, it's just like -- I didn't leave you, son.
NOISECAT: Yes, you did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was I supposed to do? And I was lost and -- drunk, just going like a madman. At the time that I told your mom, I don't know
what the hell is wrong. I'm crying my -- eyes out every day, and I don't know why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Julian, how much truth is there for you in that scene? And how much do you feel it resonates with people you know in your community and
beyond?
[13:30:00]
NOISECAT: Well, you know, when I set out to make this documentary with Em (ph), initially there was no understanding that I would be a participant
alongside my family. That was something that happened very organically through the filming of the documentary, and it happened because members of
my own community and family and participants in the documentary really kind of pulled me into the story.
It became very clear that as, you know, the son of potentially the only known survivor of the incinerator at St. Joseph's Mission that in some
sense I had a responsibility to, you know, share and tell that story because, you know, on the one hand, of course, it's a unique story. It's a
story that comes from my family and community and that deeply impacted me personally. But it's also a story that's shared by so many indigenous
people and indigenous people my age, not just survivors of these institutions, you know, across North America.
We have inherited the legacy of this genocide and attempted cultural annihilation of an entire people that included acts of violence and even,
in some instance, acts of infanticide, and we're still grappling with that and it still continues to cascade across generations. At the same time as
we're, you know, trying to reclaim the very cultures and traditions that, you know, were targeted by these institutions and to heal as families and
communities, and that's really ultimately what, you know, the film is about.
It's -- on the one hand, it's about these atrocities, but it's also about how we're coming together in love and healing, you know, on the other side
of them.
NEWTON: And I'm so glad you mentioned that, Julian. Julian and Emily, we do have to leave it there, but I want to say that this, in a word, is
stunning. It's very artful, in fact. Just some of the scenes are like paintings, really. But I also do want to point out there are moments of
mischievous humor and joy, and it really was amazing. Thank you.
KASSIE: Thank you so much.
NOISECAT: Thank you so much.
NEWTON: And we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEWTON: From ashes into art, that's how French President Emmanuel Macron has described the restoration of Paris's Notre Dame Cathedral, which he
toured today. Five years on from the devastating fire which consumed much of the building and caused its famous spire to collapse. The pictures of
that scene are still so unbelievable.
CNN's Melissa Bell has also been inside to see its restoration. And I see, it's shining brightly behind you, Melissa.
[13:35:00]
MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. This was really an opportunity to have a look ahead of the grand opening for it,
that'll be next week. By Saturday, there'll be a ceremony for the whole world to rediscover it. The actual first mass will be on Sunday, but this
today was the very last seventh and ultimate site of the construction site by the French president.
He praised the workers there as alchemists of the construction site, which he described as the construction site of the century.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BELL (voice-over): And new dawn for Notre Dame Cathedral, more than five and a half years after a fire tore through parts of the Gothic structure in
the heart of Paris. Sparkling stonework highlighting the stunning results of the estimated $737 million restoration as it was unveiled to France's
president, Emmanuel Macron, on Friday.
After the 2019 blaze, the president had vowed to rebuild Notre Dame even more beautiful than it was. Entering the cathedral with his wife, Brigitte,
on Friday, it was clear that France had achieved just that.
It was at the same time repaired, restored, and re-baptized, Macron said.
Millions had watched in shock and horror as Notre Dame's 96-meter spire tumbled into the church during the 2019 blaze. Now, its renaissance is
complete.
Touring the epicenter of the blaze, the medieval roof structure known as the forest, Macron saw the beams rebuilt by hand from 1,200 oak trees from
across France.
Among the highlights of Macron's tour, a mural in the north enclosure of the choir that was badly damaged in the fire, and the Virgin of Paris, a
14th century statue that became a symbol of resistance when it was found standing resolute, surrounded by burnt wood and collapsed stone. And the
beautiful San Marcel's chapel, one of 29 chapels that have been lovingly restored. Viewing the 12-meter-wide grand organ, Macon described it as
sublime.
More than 1,300 people involved in the restoration were invited inside as the French president wrapped up his final visit to the site before its
formal reopening.
You have transformed ashes into art, he told them. The whole planet was upset that day in April. The shock of the reopening will be as big as that
of the fire, he said, thanking the crowds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BELL (on camera): It was a reminder, he said, speaking to those who've been involved in the reconstruction, of all of that work, Paula, that had
gone into its construction more than 900 years ago, over many generations, men who had worked for something bigger than themselves, and the workmen,
the artist, the craftsman that he's celebrated here today to whom he paid tribute were precisely in that lineage. They were doing the same thing
today as had been done then, and really the result is spectacular, Paula.
NEWTON: It really is. I am so happy to see it. It really brought a smile to my face today. I want to ask you, even for those who don't really have
an attachment to the country or the city, many still felt compelled to donate to this.
BELL: That's right. And you know, we felt it on the very night of the fire. It is, of course -- it's been described as the beating heart of
Paris. And of course, to the French capital, it matters a great deal. Historically, in terms of France's literature. There is no French school
child who isn't brought inside and shown it at an early age.
But we realized on the night of the fire from our viewers, from what we were seeing on social media, that this was a fire that was being watched by
the whole world because it still speaks to the whole world. And to that, and to your question there is the $740 million that was spent on its
reconstruction, but it was more than $800 million that were raised from 150 different countries, 340,000 different donors chose to give small amounts,
some big.
And I think the fact that such a large number of countries were involved in It speaks to what this cathedral represents. It isn't about just the
Catholic faith, it isn't just about French history, it is one of those cathedrals that speaks to what makes us human and to what is greater than
any single individual. And it captured the heart of the world that night and again today as we saw its first images reopen for them.
NEWTON: Yes, as Agnes Poirier told me earlier today, the author. she says it is in fact the very soul of France. Melissa Bell for us in Paris, thank
you so much. Really appreciate it.
Now, after the break, we dive into the creative mind of music producer Jack Antonoff, whose magic touch is behind many of today's most popular albums.
You will want to see this interview.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
NEWTON: And welcome back. After a whirlwind year of producing albums with Taylor Swift and Sabrina Carpenter, while touring the world with his own
band, Bleachers, Jack Antonoff was nominated this month for four Grammy Awards. And it is a good time to revisit Christiane's conversation with
Jack from when he was in London this summer to perform on stage with Taylor Swift at the Eras Tour. Now, they discussed his creative process and what
inspires him.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Jack Antonoff, welcome to the program.
JACK ANTONOFF, MUSICIAN, SONGWRITER AND PRODUCER: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: I have a lot to ask you, but I do actually want to start by your appearance on the stage with Taylor Swift, which was pretty amazing. Did
you expect it? What was it like?
ANTONOFF: I mean, it's the -- I'm the least nervous the more surreal it gets. I'd be more nervous talking to you than being in front of that many
people.
AMANPOUR: And did you know she was going to pull you out?
ANTONOFF: Oh, yes, yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: You did? It was planned?
ANTONOFF: You know. Yes. I mean, I rose from under the stage.
AMANPOUR: Oh, you did. I didn't see it.
ANTONOFF: Yes, yes, yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR SWIFT, SINGER: I think if you scream loud enough, Jack Antonoff might come out here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONOFF: That would be cool, to be surprised.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: That's what I look like? That's me?
AMANPOUR: You tell me, it looks like you.
ANTONOFF: I guess. Do you ever look at yourself and you're like, that's what I look like?
AMANPOUR: Occasionally.
ANTONOFF: Yes, not in a bad way.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes. And wait until you get 10, 20 years older.
ANTONOFF: Does it get better?
AMANPOUR: Oh, worse.
ANTONOFF: Really?
AMANPOUR: Yes, Jack, it does. But let's talk about you now.
ANTONOFF: I'm happy with it. I just didn't know.
AMANPOUR: Good, good, good. Well, you're a young guy. What is it like? You seem to be a seriously cool guy when it comes not just to music, but who
you produce. And especially you produce a lot of very powerful women.
And I don't know whether you started by identifying women or whether it was just something that came to you. How did it start with Taylor Swift for
instance?
ANTONOFF: That started as organic as possible. We literally met completely outside of even anything really industry like kind of through friends. I'm
just playing music that we liked. One thing leads to another.
A lot of it -- my story with her is similar to my story in general, which is, it's usually -- the music that I make is not different than the music I
made when I was a kid, which is you meet someone you agree on an outlook or a sound and then you just start messing around.
But the woman thing, I don't know. I've never found a good answer to that question. And there's men in my life too.
AMANPOUR: Kendrick Lamar. Look, you've worked on 11 of her albums, but beyond, that you've won a lot of Grammys. And particularly, you've won
producer of the year for the last three years.
ANTONOFF: Yes, it's bananas.
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: What is -- I don't even know whether you can, but can you say what is more satisfying? What you like better? Is it producing? Is it being
a musician? Is it being a performer? Is it doing your own stuff?
ANTONOFF: I've never experienced any of them without each other. So, I don't know. I know for other people, they're very different. You know, I
have a lot of friends who love being in the studio and despise being on the road or some people get exhausted by the studio and need to perform.
I -- they're very much one thing to me. I've never been in the studio and not thought about live. I've never been on stage and not imagined what I
was going to do next in the studio. So, I -- another one that I have no good answer for.
But I find myself getting into this position sometimes when I talk about my work, where -- whether I'm on the road, which is literally moving forward,
literally, or I'm in the studio, which is thinking forward, thinking forward. I don't spend any time intellectualizing or even just any general
understanding of what I do. So, then I get here and I'm like, I don't know. I like the tour. I like the studio.
AMANPOUR: So, let's talk about your tour then, because you're here with Bleachers, your band.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And I'm going to play a little clip of you performing the song "Tiny Moves," which is from the album last month.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: We're going to play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: How'd you feel looking at it?
ANTONOFF: Like I should cut my hair.
AMANPOUR: You are New Jersey, right?
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And Springsteen is an influence.
ANTONOFF: I am New Jersey.
AMANPOUR: And Springsteen is inevitably in your --
ANTONOFF: Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: Huge. Well, he's -- Bruce is kind of like the -- stands at the top of this sound. He's the tip of the iceberg, right, which is that the --
which is -- he's what everyone hears and sees. And then, when you're from New Jersey, you know, right below there you have Southside Johnny, which is
like a huge part of that sound.
And then, when I was growing up, it was a little bit more of like the local punk scene. But the way that I've come to understand the sound, which is
something that flows very naturally through me is, I believe Jersey is the only place in the world that really hugs a city like that. You know, if you
think about Tokyo or London, kind of -- doesn't London go like this or L.A.? You know, you have New York City, you have a tiny sliver of water and
then you have New Jersey. It's almost medieval, right? Like a moat. It's right there.
And so, I think a lot about the amount -- and I don't even mean this in a poetic way, of literal energy that sort of like comes off of New York City
and then sort of drifts over New Jersey. Makes you as a kid feel like you're missing out. Makes you feel like there's something you want to be a
part of. And so, all the music to me, sonically and lyrically, feels like desperate to break out.
AMANPOUR: Well, I mean, you must get asked this all the time, but a lot of your music, your early influence, I suppose, was under the force of grief.
You lost your sister at 13. You were 18 when you lost her, she had cancer. And you said this new album began with the idea of tribute living. Tell me
about that.
ANTONOFF: I got interested in this concept of like the lens we write through. So, like, you, as a writer, you write about your life, you write
about your experience, your time. But you still have, like, a lens. New Jersey is a lens.
You know, I'm still reporting from there, no matter where I am. And then, grief is one of those lenses, too, where I'm still reporting from that
place, even if the song has nothing to do with it, even if it's about joy, even if it's about falling in love, I always find myself, in some way,
likening it to loss. And then, I just had this word -- you know, words in my head, which don't really show up on the album, but this concept of
tribute living.
AMANPOUR: And I'm going to just quote something that you've said when you announced the latest one. So, here it is, the first Bleachers album with me
and the band knowing what we know now. All 11 tracks reimagined without the armor I needed at the time, a different kind now.
Tell me about that journey and the armor then and now.
[13:50:00]
ANTONOFF: When I was starting out, I would write these songs about grief, and then I got really interested in masking them. So, some of my earlier
work was a bit, like, more maximal, and I felt like I wanted to trick people a little bit, which is, I think, a thing that is interesting to do
when you're trying to find your audience. You know, like, you don't want too broad because then you might let in some, you know, people who don't
really get you.
But if you kind of mask it, then you -- or obscure it in some way, you just find that it -- you know, I always want my music to reach people very
directly. I mean, I'm never trying to make things that are just sort of satisfying everyone. I'm happy if people like it, but, you know, I'm always
trying to do that. And with Bleachers, I just started, you know, these really intensely dark lyrics, and this really abrasive, loud music, and it
just sort of, like, filtered out anyone who wasn't going to fully get me.
But now that I have an audience, you find yourself at this point in my life feeling a little bit less like I'm testing everyone all the time. And so,
some of the work I've done lately comes from the place of being a little bit more known.
AMANPOUR: You seem quite shy in your interaction. And you -- I mean, maybe you're not. But you have associated yourself, both in your professional
life and in your personal life, with what I said earlier, with some very strong, prominent women. And not just famous women, women who are
incredibly -- women of substance, whether it's the musicians we've talked about, whether you've dated people like Scarlett Johansson, Lena Dunham,
you're married now to Margaret Qualley, who's in an amazing new film called "The Substance," which is not yet out.
ANTONOFF: Yes, "The Substance" is outstanding.
AMANPOUR: Yes, I'm waiting to see it. It's really, really edgy. You feel totally secure with very strong women and successful women?
ANTONOFF: I think so. I don't know. I mean, I'm not, I don't feel --
AMANPOUR: What attracts you to that lot?
ANTONOFF: Well, I don't feel very insecure ever really. But I have a lot of issues. They're a bit more existential, but I feel -- I've always felt
very comfortable around people who are comfortable with themselves and that's usually people who end up having some power because that's a nice
trait.
But yes, I just like -- I like people who know what they want to do and hear what they hear and just want to go find it. And then, we can have our
big crisis of the day of what we should have for lunch, not about what we want to say to the world.
AMANPOUR: One of the things you did say to the world through your profession was the "Getaway Car." You have that song, it went viral, and it
was part of the joint appearance the other night. And I'm just going to play a little bit of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONOFF: I'm in a getaway car, and losing my -- something.
SWIFT: I'm in a getaway car, and you're in the motel bar, or like --
ANTONOFF: Yes, I'm in the getaway car. Left you in the motel bar. Took the money --
SWIFT: Took the money in the bag and I stole it --
ANTONOFF: Took the money --
SWIFT: Took the money in the bag and I stole the keys. That was the last time you ever saw me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK. Walk -- or first of all, I like that picture. What were you doing there?
ANTONOFF: You know, we had done a lot of pictures that day with Alex Lockett (ph), who's great, and a friend. So, I wasn't -- but I was just, at
the end of the day, and I just had it. And so, I just put the thing over my head and I kind of wanted to leave the world. It turned into a nice
picture.
AMANPOUR: But you were super energetic in that clip that we just showed.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You -- it's the story behind the story, right?
ANTONOFF: I think the reason why that video is such a big life is because one of the few videos I've ever seen and I happen to be in it, but that
really captured the moment when two people get the idea for a thing. And I don't know why she was recording that but she was and it's the only video
I've ever been a part of where I'm like, yes, that was really the moment, that was it, when we put this together and this and it speaks to that one
plus one equaling a billion. You see two people kind of one upping each other. And those are those moments when you really get the song.
AMANPOUR: I'm a little different. Jack, you have written the music for the upcoming Broadway production of "Romeo and Juliet." Should we be surprised
about that?
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes. What's it going to be like?
ANTONOFF: It'll be a big surprise.
AMANPOUR: No, but you know what I mean. Is it the Franco Zeffirelli kind of music or is it this kind of music? What kind of "Romeo and Juliet" is
it?
ANTONOFF: It's somewhere -- it's a bit, like, tense. And I've created this setup of, you know, Mellotron synthesizers and M1 stuff. And, I mean, I'm
actually like right in the middle of doing it all. But no, it's a bit odd. Yes, it's odd for what it is. It's presented in the round, and I won't give
away anything, but the staging is very interesting, and the perspective is interesting. So, previews are next month, and it opens in October.
AMANPOUR: Well, on that note, that's where we're going to end.
ANTONOFF: Really?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: That was 17 minutes?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ANTONOFF: Wow. It was like therapy.
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, I'm so proud. It was like -- I felt like a therapist.
ANTONOFF: No, I think I'm a therapist here.
AMANPOUR: That too.
ANTONOFF: That's -- I like this picture.
AMANPOUR: That is nice. What is that?
ANTONOFF: That's when we shot the video for "Tiny Moves." That's me and my now wife. I love the picture so much because --
AMANPOUR: It is beautiful.
ANTONOFF: -- it's also --
AMANPOUR: Is that New Jersey on the other side? No, that's New York. Sorry. Yes, yes, yes.
ANTONOFF: No, we're in New Jersey looking at New York.
AMANPOUR: It is. It's really nice.
ANTONOFF: And it speaks to the sort of quiet darkness of New Jersey, and all --
AMANPOUR: And the medieval moat.
ANTONOFF: Yes, it doesn't look like a kingdom in the distance.
AMANPOUR: Yes, it does, now that you say it, right there.
ANTONOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Anyway, Jack Antonoff, thank you very much.
ANTONOFF: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: Wasn't that a treat? Amazing. And finally, for us, meet Madly. She's a St. Bernard puppy and the official mascot for next year's UEFA
Women's Euro Football Tournament in Switzerland. At her debut outing today in Geneva, she got to pass a ball around the real inspiration behind her
name, Madly, that is the one and only Madeleine Boll, nearly 60 years ago, in 1965, all became the first ever female licensed footballer in
Switzerland. And she says it is such a great honor to be recognized. Lovely pictures there.
That does it for us. You can always catch us online, on our podcast, and right across social media. I want to thank you for watching, and goodbye
from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
