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Amanpour
Interview with Palestinian Poet and "Forest of Noise" Author Mosab Abu Toha; Interview with "The Substance" Actress Demi Moore; Interview with "Surveilled" Journalist and Producer and The New Yorker Investigative Reporter and Contributing Writer Ronan Farrow. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired December 05, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOSAB ABU TOHA, PALESTINIAN POET AND AUTHOR, "FOREST OF NOISE": Even your shadow will abandon you when there is no light. So, just keep things that
require only you. The book of poems that only you can decipher.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: War poetry amid the horror. How Palestinian writer Mosab Abu Toha crafted his acclaimed work, "Forest of Noise," while fleeing Israel's
devastating assault on Gaza.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEMI MOORE, ACTRESS, "THE SUBSTANCE": It explored that violence that we can have against ourselves, that harsh criticism, that compare and despair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- more than meets the eye, Demi Moore on bagging the best reviews of her career for "The Substance." She tells me why pushing the
envelope with this body horror genre is such a game changer.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most advanced spyware can turn your smartphone into a spy in your pocket.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Michel Martin talks to Ronan Farrow about his new film "Surveilled," exposing the tech that could be tracking your every move.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. The Middle East is in meltdown. The Syrian civil war has reawakened with a
vengeance as rebel forces take two major cities, Hama and Aleppo, from the Iran and Russia-backed government forces. They are also going to be
pressing on Damascus, the capital, they say.
While just across the border, it is fire on all sides. The flimsy ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah holding, despite both sides alleging the other
is violating its terms. And Israel keeps up its seemingly endless assault bombardment on Gaza.
Just this week, Gazan authorities say 47 more people were killed in airstrikes, including six more children. Israel says it was targeting Hamas
militants.
Now, perhaps some of the rawest descriptions of this destruction are not coming from aid organizations or even reporters, but from writers, like
Palestinian poet Mosab Abu Toha. He was forced to flee his home in Northern Gaza a year ago. Since then, he and his wife say they've lost almost 100
family members in the violence.
Watching now from afar in the United States, Mosab joined me from New York to talk about his new book of poetry, "Forest of Noise," which captures the
horror and grief of this time and is receiving critical acclaim and brisk sales.
Mosab Abu Toha, welcome to our program.
MOSAB ABU TOHA, PALESTINIAN POET AND AUTHOR, "FOREST OF NOISE": Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So, we have interviewed you while you were still in Gaza and trying to get out, and you're now in the United States. First and foremost,
I want to ask you about your family. You had told us that dozens had been killed by these Israeli strikes. Give me a sense of, have more been killed
or more injured? Do you know what's going on with your own family in Gaza?
TOHA: Well, when I talk about my family, I talk about my parents, my sisters, my brothers and their children. And I also talk about my wife's
family. They are divided between Northern Gaza and Southern Gaza, and every one of them is struggling differently. The people who are now in Northern
Gaza are living in tents after they left their houses, after some of their houses were destroyed. I have a brother-in-law who was abducted while he
was trying to leave Northern Gaza with my sister and with their three children.
We don't have any information about him, that he was abducted on October -- November 7th this year, which means about five weeks ago -- or even last
month, sorry. We don't have any information about him. Today, I lost a neighbor of mine, A few days ago, we learned that my aunt's husband was
found killed in the street after he went missing for about three weeks.
And my cousin, when he went out to look for his father, someone told him that, I think I saw your father on the Street eight. And when he went
there, which is -- which was a very dangerous thing to do, he risked his life and he found his father's death -- his father's head in the street.
His father was 81 years old and he was killed by an artillery shell.
So, my family have been struggling very, very severely. I talked to an aunt of mine who is living in a tent in Khan Younis and she told me the last
time they had bread was two weeks ago.
[13:05:00]
AMANPOUR: Yes. I mean, it really is honestly terrible. And we know from the international aid organizations who definitely can't get into Northern
Gaza, how desperate the situation is there, as well as in other areas. I mean, starvation again, is raising its terrible head.
And then, all these attacks, as you say. You came from Beit Lahia and that is, under attack now again and others, and the Israelis are telling people
to leave. But then we hear reports that when they do leave, they're firing on the people who are fleeing. What can you tell us about that? Do you know
anything about that from people who you're talking to there?
TOHA: Of course, I, yesterday I posted some videos and some pictures from my -- on my Instagram and on my other social media. So, people -- there is
a school in Beit Lahia called Abu Tammam School and it was one of the last school shelters where people in Beit Lahia stayed in. They tried not to
leave Beit Lahia because they know that if they leave it, they will, they are not going back. This is what Israel is doing.
And we see this on Israeli media that said that settlers are going to Gaza to Beit Lahia and Bet Hanoun with some maps of some settlements that they
are going to build. So, people in Beit Lahia know that if they leave Beit Lahia, they are not going back. So, people tried to remain there. But
unfortunately, Israel keeps -- just like they did with Kamal Adwan Hospital, they dropped some grenades from quadcopters. They even bombed
some classrooms, some hospital rooms in the past few days and few weeks even. So, people tried to remain, but it was impossible for them to stay.
So, yesterday the Israeli army broke into the school and they expelled all the people from Abu Tammam School. And we saw the marches of people who are
going from Beit Lahia to Gaza City. And there was an Israeli checkpoint still there. It's near the Indonesian hospital and that's where they
usually let women and children who are younger than 15 to proceed but they keep the men. And that's where they abducted my brother-in-law. That's --
what -- that's where they abducted my wife's cousin, Sohaib (ph), who was the only survivor of his family, which was killed on October 26th this
year.
He was in a hospital and I would like to tell you his story. Sohaib (ph) was the only survivor of his family and he was -- he had the clearance from
the World Health Organization to be taken from the Kamal Adwan Hospital to Al Shifa Hospital or Al-Ahli Hospital in Gaza City because in Kamal Adwan
Hospital, Israel expelled all doctors and nurses and even cleaners.
So, he waited for a few weeks before the World Health Organization managed to get him a clearance to go from Kamal Adwan Hospital in Beit Lahia to Al
Shifa Hospital in Gaza City. And when he arrived at the checkpoint, he had a relative of his, his uncle. And he was the one who told us this story.
So, the Israeli soldiers opened the ambulance doors and they said, welcome, Sohaib (ph). We will treat you later. That was November 10th. And until
today, we don't have any information about Sohaib (ph). And this is the case of so many of my friends and family members.
ACOSTA: In this regard,as you know, the former Israeli Likud defense minister, Moshe Ya'alon, has said, and he keeps saying it, that Israeli
soldiers and the Israeli politics are ethnically cleansing North Gaza, and he's talked about war crimes. The Israeli government themselves say they
are not trying to force the remaining population of Northern Gaza to flee, they just doing whatever they have to do against Hamas. That is their
regular every day statement.
Now, I want to proceed, because you've told the story and I know what you think and people will see what they see on social media. But I want to ask
you how you cope being away and how you've managed to put such a face of humanity and feeling into your poetry? And it seems to be doing incredibly
well with American readers. The latest book of poetry you have put out is called "Forest of Noise." Tell me about the role of your work in this time.
TOHA: You know, Christiane, it is sometimes heartbreaking to write a poem about something that you witnessed, that you lived through, that you were
told about. You write something about a massacre, the massacre -- the wheat flour massacre in February this year. And the -- you write a poem about the
two fathers who were killed in January this year while they were trying to get some bread for their kids. You write a poem about that and you think,
OK, now I tell -- I told the world about this story and I hope that it will never happen again.
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But when -- every day I go to social media, I check the news, the local news, I see the same thing happening. And for me, the poem is happening
again. And it is devastating because when we write literature, we write literature about things that we were told about that we live, but now, the
reality is different, hopefully. But I'm writing poetry about things that keep happening. Even in my first poetry book, things you may find hidden in
my ear.
There are so many poems, especially the poem "Shrapnel Looking for Laughter," which I wrote about the family, the Atalani (ph) family. The six
people from the same family, the father, the mother, and their four children. The oldest was 10 years old. The family which was killed in May
2021. And look how many times this poem happened.
A whole family was killed. Just imagine how many families like this were killed, including two first cousins of mine, Tahrir Abu Toha (ph) with her
husband and their five children, and my cousin -- first cousin, Noor Ashantaf (ph), with her husband and their children. So, I'm writing a poem
about something that does not only happen, but keeps happening.
And sometimes I question whether what I'm doing is really protecting people by telling the stories about them. And we are doing -- we have been doing
this not only through poetry, but also through essays, through media engagements. But, Christiane, it's very devastating that I'm reading a poem
and it's happening while I'm reading it.
AMANPOUR: I know, I know. And actually, what we read is that a lot of the storytelling is coming through a group of Palestinian poets. You're the
most renowned and yours seems to be doing the best, but it does seem to be really interesting how you are putting your finger on the pulse of what's
happening to your people. Could you read for me "No Art"?
TOHA: Sure. No Art. The art of losing isn't hard to master. Elizabeth Bishop. You know everything will come to an end. The sugar, the tea, the
dried sage, the water. Just go to the market and restock. Even your shadow will abandon you when there is no light. So, just keep things that require
only you. The book of poems that only you can decipher. The blank map of a country whose cities and villages only you can recognize.
I've personally lost three friends to war, a city to darkness, and a language to fear. This was not easy to survive, but survival proved
necessary to master. But of all things, losing the only photo of my grandfather under the rubble of my house was a real disaster.
AMANPOUR: It really does speak about such loss. You also had founded a couple of library branches. You taught. What's happened to all of that and
to the universities and to the cultural centers there?
TOHA: So, before I answer, Christiane, this poem was written before October 7th. And that's why in the poem I say I lost three friends to war.
But if I -- if this poem was to be written today or yesterday or tomorrow, the number would be in the hundreds.
I founded the Edward Said Public Library in 2017. I was trying to try and break some kind of siege that was imposed in Gaza after 2007 by bringing
books by -- from Europe, from America so that my people, who have never been able to travel and see the world, they could see the world through the
words of other authors who have been roaming the world for decades.
So, the two branches have been destroyed by Israeli airstrikes, just like 70 -- more than 70 percent of the infrastructure in the Gaza Strip. One of
the librarians, Dua El Masri (ph), was killed last December with her father and her mother and her siblings in Al Tuffah neighborhood in Gaza City. And
I've lost connection with the other members of the team. It's very difficult to get in touch and even talk to anyone.
I mean, I personally sometimes spend an hour trying to talk to my father- in-law or my brother or to check on my sister whose husband was abducted. So, all Gaza's universities have been destroyed. Many schools -- and we see
this. I mean, it's not Palestinians even who are documenting this genocide, it's even Israeli soldiers. They do -- they are documenting the blowing up
of houses, the blowing up of schools, the burn -- the setting of fires of schools where people used to stay to shelter. They burn not only the
school, but the stuff that people were keeping, mattresses, blankets, clothes.
So, I mean, this is really devastating, not on a cultural level, but on a human level, they are not only killing people, but they are also killing
the city. The city we -- which Gaza is the only place that I knew all my life. It is my history. It is my present. It is my future. So, I've nothing
to return to. Even the rubble of my house, it's been -- it's even bombed.
One time after our house was bombed on October 28th last year, the house got some artillery shells even after it was bombed. So, they are killing
the dead even, they don't want to see anything.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Mosab, you say you have nothing to return to. Would you return if the war ended? You're in the relative safety of the United States
writing about these horrors in Gaza, your homeland, how is it being received? I mean, the book seems to be selling very, very well, your
poetry.
TOHA: Yes. I mean, of course I would love to go to Gaza now after I finish this interview. But the fact that Israel not only occupied Rafah in May
this year, but they also destroyed the Rafah Border Crossing. They destroyed the Rafah City, the border -- the city where -- which is --
through which you can go to Egypt and then to the outside world.
And Israel has divided the Gaza Strip into three parts right now. There is Southern Gaza and there is Northern Gaza. Northern Gaza itself was divided
into two parts. North Gaza and Gaza City. So, Gaza has imposed its military grip on the Gaza Strip. And even, by the way, Christiane, even before
October 7th, Israel had a say on who enters Gaza, even Gazans, and who leaves Gaza.
They decide with the Egyptians when to open, when to close the border crossing. Israel has been occupying our sea. Because they say that in 2005
Israel left Gaza and Hamas was -- no, this is a big lie. Gaza remained under siege.
Now, why hasn't I been able in my life to sail in my sea? And why haven't other people been able to sail into our sea and see us in Gaza? Is this not
a Gaza Sea? And the sky, we haven't -- we have -- I'm 32 years old, and I mentioned this in one of my poems, I've never seen an airliner in the sky
over Gaza. 32 years, I've never seen an airliner. Not to say that we also don't have an airport in Gaza, but I've never seen an airliner. The only
kinds of planes that I saw were F-16s, F-35s, helicopters, drones. I've never seen any airliners in my world.
I mean, how does the world expect us to be? Why hasn't anyone come to us and talked to us about our lives? How many officials from the west came to
Gaza after October 7th? Fifteen months -- not a single official came to Gaza to talk to people and ask and meet with just with the doctors, with
the nurses, with the university professors, with the poets, talk to families, intense, ask them, oh, what can we do? What have we done wrong?
Why -- how do we move forward? No one. No one came to Gaza. Not even before October 7th.
AMANPOUR: That's --
TOHA: But look how many officials came to Israel before and after and how many times the Blinken visited the United Israel and how many times Biden
came and how many phone calls he had. But in Gaza, as Amnesty International published today, they have been treating us as sub-humans. Not only Israel,
but the whole world.
AMANPOUR: And that's why your testimony is so important, and that's why we are very pleased to have you on. Mosab Abu Toha, thank you very much
indeed.
TOHA: Thank you, Christiane. I appreciate the time with you.
AMANPOUR: And from a poet using those words to expose the horrors of war, to the actress portraying the ravages of misogyny and sexism in our
society. Hollywood superstar Demi Moore has made her name in blockbusters like "Ghost," "A Few Good Men," "Indecent Proposal." Well, now she's
flipping the script, starring in one of 2024's most acclaimed movies called the "The Substance." It's a horrifying satire about our image obsessed
culture and how it affects women.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever dreamt of a better version of yourself? Younger, more beautiful, more perfect.
One single injection unlocks your DNA and will release another version of yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The role is bringing plenty of Oscar buzz and some of the best reviews of Demi Moore's career. We met up in New York in the middle of this
awards season campaign to discuss it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Demi Moore, welcome to our program.
DEMI MOORE, ACTRESS, "THE SUBSTANCE": Thank you so much for having me. I really truly feel so honored. I'm such a fan. So, this is a very nice and
big moment.
AMANPOUR: Well, we are very happy to talk to you about this amazing film and a lot of other things. First, I want to ask you about "The Substance."
MOORE: OK.
AMANPOUR: Because it is extraordinary body horror. It's been out for several months. And it's had a range of critiques. Some have said it's like
really deep. Others have said it's really shallow. You yourself said that this could be an absolutely amazing thing, or it could be a disaster.
MOORE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Now, that it's been out for a few months, is it amazing or a disaster?
MOORE: I think it's amazing. I mean, it's really, in truth, I think, hit the mark. a certain kind of zeitgeist in popular culture that is even
beyond what I could have expected, but all that I had hoped for. And I think for those looking just for something that's a visceral, entertaining
experience, it's all there. And I think for those -- and more so, I find people who it -- where it's deeply resonated, it's touched them in a place
of their -- kind of their own truth. And that's really like the greatest hope.
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: It obviously got this phenomenal buzz out of Cannes when it premiered and it got a 13-minute standing ovation. Were you surprised? I
mean, you just said it's got a buzz beyond what you, were you surprised by its initial reaction?
MOORE: I was shocked. I -- because I truly did go in with no expectations and because it has such a mix, there's really nothing like this film. And
so, I didn't know if the extreme nature of where it goes would either kind of work, connect, what it would do. I really had no idea. I -- truly, I
kept looking over at Margaret Qualley, my co-star, going, like it's working and people -- and in fact, the craziest parts of it, I think allowed for
enough of a -- you know, of a reprieve, the laughter to kind of step back and actually take in the part that's so intense.
AMANPOUR: And it really is intense. You mentioned Margaret Qualley. She plays Sue, who is your younger alter ego.
MOORE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You are Elizabeth Sparkle.
MOORE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And at a famous, you know, scene of a lunch or a dinner with I think the boss of your show, Harvey, by the way, called Harvey, he
essentially told you that you've just hit 50 and you've aged out and maxed out of Hollywood.
MOORE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So, that's the paradigm. Just give us the story. I mean, it's a very visceral story about something that's a big deal for women in
Hollywood and elsewhere.
MOORE: I mean, I think it's -- again, for me, the setting is, you know, heightened by the mere fact that it's -- you know, Elizabeth is somebody in
the public eye. She's an actress. But it's -- and so, there are greater expectations and challenges that come when you are out front facing and
with judgments and criticisms that come from the outside.
The fascinating part for me with this was not the circumstances, but it's the aspect of what she was doing to herself, the value she was placing on
what other people thought and cared about, her value on whether she was successful, being the very crux of whether she was worthy or not. And I
think that's the piece that really moved me, because it explored that violence that we can have against ourselves, that harsh criticism, that
compare and despair.
AMANPOUR: When you were starting out, and you were a member of what they called the Hollywood Brat Pack, right? And you had very, very famous films.
Did you think then, when you were so young, I mean, barely out of teenagerhood, that life would be like that for an actress, that you would
face these really extraordinary pressures, not just you, but all women in Hollywood?
MOORE: You know, I think the interesting thing that this film's afforded me and -- is to look back and realize that while this film is dealing with
somebody who's aging out, that that level of harshness and self-judgment is something I have put on myself in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and you know, the
difference today is it's not that it doesn't come up, it's just that my ability and the tools I have to shift that are very different.
AMANPOUR: I spoke with the director, the French director, Coralie Fargeat, who is quite remarkable. Her initial film -- her debut film, was "Revenge."
MOORE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And she has an amazing body of work. And again, there was a lot of controversy and expectation around this film. When I asked her after it
aired -- after it first released, about working with you, this is what she said. We're going to play the soundbite.
MOORE: Oh, OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORALIE FARGEAT, DIRECTOR, "THE SUBSTANCE": I discovered someone who was really willing to -- you know, to take risk, to kind of also make a
statement, I think, to the world with this story. And pairing her with another actress which has -- who has this kind of same raw, visceral and
very instinctive energy was the best way for me to kind of build the two sides of this character.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, it's a really interesting insight into you, working with you. How far out of your comfort zone did she push you?
MOORE: I mean, I think the very nature of it was knowing that I was stepping into something that was extremely raw and vulnerable, and to
really tell the story required to really, like, expose all those parts that we generally might want to mask, cover up or generally just not share. It's
-- and -- but it was the kind of stepping out of my comfort zone that I knew would be empowering and liberating.
[13:25:00]
And in a way, knowing that I wasn't going to be photographed and shot in the most glamorous ways. In fact, quite the opposite. I was going to be
heightened shots, accentuating those very things that perhaps I don't love. And, you know, the truth is it really was, for me, in the end, it was a
reclaiming. It was -- and a more empowering ownership by just saying, I am who I am and this is where I am at this moment in time. And finding kind of
the power in that important message of accepting who we are as we are.
AMANPOUR: And given that you were being photographed, as you just said, maybe not in --
MOORE: The most flattering.
AMANPOUR: Yes, but it really was. More than that, you were filmed alongside somebody who's very, very much younger, very nubile, very toned.
Was that difficult?
MOORE: No. I mean, I think, of course, there are always moments that pop up of compare, but it's, again, when I talk about that idea that it's --
that circumstances are what they are, but it's what we do to ourselves, it's how we hold something, how something is on the outside, or what
someone else does or doesn't do is irrelevant. How we hold it is everything. And seeing for me, the more important of the beauty the -- like
finding that there is beauty in every stage. And I think that's what was also interesting about, you know, choosing, you know, me to do this where
it's not like I'm like super, super haggard or where you're going, well, yes, I can kind of see why that wouldn't work.
It's -- so, I actually loved and appreciate it. While I could also say, oh, wow. You know, I certainly liked how her butt looked better than mine, but
it was --
AMANPOUR: You looked amazing.
MOORE: But it was -- no, for me, it was one of the best parts, having that.
AMANPOUR: I spoke to Jodie Foster a while ago about "True Detective."
MOORE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And she played the most successful season, the final season. And she said turning 60 was incredibly liberating for her as a female actress,
as somebody who plays alongside younger actors. It's like her time to sort of almost put the others ahead of her, give them the chance, and not think
so much about her own vanity. Do you feel that having turned 60 is consciously or subconsciously a turning point?
MOORE: I couldn't agree more. I think that there is a great freedom in it. And again, when, you know, like in the story, when you're chasing this idea
of perfection, or you're placing a value of something being better, as younger, versus, you know, as I heard a woman write in -- on a BBC talk --
radio show, she wrote in, they said, how do you celebrate your body at this age? And she was in her late 70s. And she said, you know, my body has --
the size and shape is pretty much stayed the same, it's just more loosely wrapped.
And so, I really love that. I totally get it. I understand. And I thought, would I trade a tighter ass, you know, for the wisdom and the peace and
serenity that I have in life of who I am today? No, I wouldn't.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's really Important and profound that you say that. You wrote a memoir a few years ago called "Inside Out."
MOORE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: In which you detailed in fairly shocking and again, visceral information about your childhood, your -- you know, the sexual abuse that,
you know, endured the drugs, the alcohol, the fear of being you at that time and how you coped with it. But you also really, again, created
headlines when you were together with and married to Ashton Kutcher who was a lot younger. I think he was 25, you were 40.
MOORE: Yes, 40.
AMANPOUR: This film is about aging and how you deal with it. How much of the film and what you were, you know, experiencing doing the film could you
link to your own private life and what maybe you went through as being an older woman with a younger man?
MOORE: I mean, I think everything in life is in service. Like for me, I'd look at everything is that everything in life is happening for me, not to
me. And that includes, if not more so, the more challenging things.
You know, it was interesting during that time, you would have thought I was the first person who's ever been with a younger man. I was not. But somehow
I was placed as a bit of a poster that came with a lot of judgment and I -- but I think all of my life has been in service in a way, you know, the
things that I write about in the book that are dealing with a lot of my own challenges with my own body issues, the value I -- especially in my younger
years, placed on my body being a certain way also gave me a lot of depth to bring to this, even though that isn't where I'm sitting today, but I think
that I have all of that to bring into the table.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: And you, you know, went on as -- you were sober after a while. And then, that was compromised as well during your marriage.
MOORE: It was.
AMANPOUR: Tell me about that. I mean, because other people might learn from that, having taken a moral and a physical stand against the addiction
and then to have a lover, a husband, maybe swerve you off the beaten path.
MOORE: I mean, I think, again, you know, all my choices. I take full responsibility for. Nobody does anything to you. But I allowed the
circumstances of wanting to be something that I'm not to open a door. And what's interesting is I can look at the arc of everything in my journey has
all been really about one path, which is in service of valuing myself. And in a way it took a lot to strip me down of everything for me to find and
really explore the value of who am I with nothing? Like if I'm not a mother, I'm not a wife, if I'm not an actor, can I find value and love for
myself as just a being?
AMANPOUR: And?
MOORE: And I have. And -- but it's not a place of -- that you get to and it's done, it's a process, a continuing process.
AMANPOUR: You have three daughters, three grown daughters in their 30s. How did they -- well, how did they react to your film and to your book?
Because you shared a lot of secrets.
MOORE: I did. I think there was a lot in the book that, in a way, they didn't know, particularly about my childhood and some of that, but I think
it gave them a better understanding of maybe aspects of my intensity of certain things. But overall, I think it presented, I think, a cathartic
healing for them as well.
And in a way, I feel like the film was almost kind of a secondary maybe installment to processing whatever was left over from some of that real
lack of value. I really had no value for myself. I mean, everything was, in many respects, kind of based on kind of my -- like not -- I don't want to
just say external achievements, but there was a part that, you know, what other people thought I had given a lot more power to.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
MOORE: And even in stepping back, you know, I took a long time just to be with my kids. And one of the harder parts about reengaging with my career
was realizing that my own success didn't drive me.
AMANPOUR: Did they like the film?
MOORE: Oh, so back to that? Yes. I think it was intense for them to see. They definitely did. My oldest daughter who, you know, has a baby now, it
was a little harder for her.
AMANPOUR: So, you're a grandmother? Honestly, I'm saying that loud because it's impossible to imagine looking at you.
MOORE: I am. And -- no, but I think they really -- and obviously, we've had many conversations around this idea. And, you know, I love to share
that in part of those conversations, my middle daughter, Scout, reflected something so beautiful, which is this idea that she said, I want to quit
wasting time focusing on all that I'm not when I could be celebrating all that I am.
AMANPOUR: That's a victory. Score one.
MOORE: A hundred percent.
AMANPOUR: In terms of the family dynamic, you were married for 13 years to Bruce Willis, a huge mega star at the time of your marriage. And he is
diagnosed with a kind of dementia.
MOORE: Yes. FTD.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Can you say what that is?
MOORE: It's frontal temporal dementia.
AMANPOUR: And you've put out regular updates, or some updates anyway. Can you tell his fans and people how he is and how he's coping?
MOORE: You know, given the givens, he's in a very stable place at the moment. And you know, I've shared this before, but I really mean this so
sincerely, it's like so important for anybody who's dealing with this to really meet them where they're at. And from that place, there is such
loving and joy. I mean, obviously, it's very difficult and it's not what I would wish upon anyone and there is great loss, but there is also great
beauty and gifts that can come out of it.
AMANPOUR: And also, in terms of the extended family dynamic, the fact that you're an ex-wife, he has a current wife and other children --
MOORE: Yes, he does.
AMANPOUR: -- but you all seem to get along.
MOORE: We do. And I -- you know, that has been very important to me, even from when Bruce and I, you know, separated and divorced, is the recognition
that we're family and will always be a family just in a different form. And that form may kind of evolve and change. And that, you know, there is a way
in which we can all be in that form.
[13:35:00]
And I'm grateful because it doesn't -- it's not just me, it has to require everybody to be coming together, and it's lovely. I'm really so grateful.
AMANPOUR: And back to this film, "The Substance," because it's the Oscar campaign, and there's some buzz around Coralie Fargeat getting potentially
Best Director, or being nominated, rather, for Best Director. Do you think the Academy is brave enough to nominate somebody like her for this kind of
film? Because remember, it took Mubi, the streaming device, to actually release your film. The big studios didn't.
MOORE: You know, it's interesting. If we hadn't had "Everything, Everywhere All at Once" kind of make its way through, which is also not a
film you would have ever expected to be in that arena.
AMANPOUR: That's Michelle Yeoh's film.
MOORE: So, I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's -- it is a unique film. There is nothing like it. And so, we'll see. We'll see what happens.
AMANPOUR: OK. All right. Demi Moore, thank you so much indeed.
MOORE: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Revealing indeed. And next, it's the one thing we practically never leave home without, but could our smartphones be spying on us? Well,
after becoming a target of hacking himself, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Ronan Farrow made it his mission to shine a light on the shadowy
world of cyber surveillance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spyware is this powerful surveillance tool. Big spyware companies say they sell this tech only to governments. But this multi-
billion-dollar industry is mostly unregulated. The most advanced spyware can turn your smartphone into a spy in your pocket.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Farrow joins Michel Martin now to discuss his new documentary, "Surveilled," and the frightening reality of spyware.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Ronan Farrow, thanks so much for talking with us once again.
RONAN FARROW, JOURNALIST AND PRODUCER, "SURVEILLED" AND INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER AND CONTRIBUTING WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: Always a pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
MARTIN: So, this might seem basic, but if you could just take us to the beginning, what is spyware and how did you become aware of it?
FARROW: So, the most modern forms of spyware that we should all be most concerned about can hijack your phone undetectably, turn it into a
listening device, turn on the microphone, turn on the camera, and disgorge all your personal content and send it remotely to whoever is operating the
technology.
So, the core thing to know is that for a long time this has been used as a tool of oppression under dictatorships, autocracies. We see it show up on
the phones of people around murdered dissidents, journalists. It's been linked to hundreds of acts of violence around the world. But what I've been
tracking in recent years of my reporting is that in one western democracy after another, countries that supposedly have protections against these
kinds of intrusions in their bodies of law, we're also seeing scandals in which this kind of surveillance technology is overused.
We've seen it happen in Poland, in Greece, in Spain, and a lot of this documentary, "Surveilled," is actually set in Spain, where we document one
of the largest clusters on record of peaceful civil society members and opposition politicians being hacked in this way.
And I can tell you, Michelle, from my own experience being followed around, surveilled in various ways, including sometimes high-tech ways where
someone was following me, tracking my GPS data, it is not just information gathering, it is intimidation. And it shrinks the space for opposition
expression of all kinds. So, it's something we should all just be really concerned about.
And the film shows that not just opposition politicians and activists, but innocent bystanders, apolitical people are caught up in this all the time.
MARTIN: I think we have to get really basic here because I think some people feel that, look, if you're not doing anything wrong, then what do
you care whether people are following you around or listening to your conversations and stuff like that? I just think you really need to explain
for people why these matters.
FARROW: I think the reasons to care about this are twofold. First of all, you might have the posture that you just described, Michel. I'm not doing
anything wrong, why would anyone want my data? Nobody wants my nudes, you know? And that may intuitively make sense, but what we see over and over
again when these Orwellian surveillance dragnets happen, again, increasingly in western democracies where people said, not here, it
couldn't happen here, is that innocent bystanders, totally apolitical people are caught up in those dragnets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why should people around the world care about the hacking that you're documenting here in Catalonia?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is going to be one of the first cases where there's such a large and vast number of affected people. And from a vast
and different type of categories of society. So, we've had the Parliament of Catalonia targeted. We've had the Government of Catalonia targeted.
We've had lawyers targeted. We've had civil leaders of cultural organizations of Catalonia targeted.
[13:40:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not some future Orwellian scenario. It really - - it happened here. It's happening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's happening here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FARROW: And to get at the other part of why people should care about this, whether you wind up on a list or not, you have to be invested in how this
kind of technology shrinks the space for all forms of dissent and opposition. You know, we've seen extreme cases of that, Michel, like in the
case of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi, there was an allegation that Pegasus, one of these powerful forms of spyware, showed up on phones of
associates of his.
Now, some of the players involved in that fact pattern deny it, but that seems to be the case. And that's the pattern. You had him communicating
dissent about the Saudi government, and he wound up dead. So, that's an extreme case. But in all of the countries that have this technology at its
-- their fingertips, and the U.S. government has purchased this technology, which we can talk about, we have to be concerned about how private
communications that express dissent can quickly become a source of retaliation.
MARTIN: One of the people you interviewed told you that the system of checks and balances we have come to take for granted in the west has
unraveled before our eyes. So, walk us through your reporting. Let's go to Spain, which is -- where a lot of the reporting in the -- in your
documentary is based. What happened there and how did it happen?
FARROW: In Spain, a country where people really did say, well, it couldn't happen here, you have a peaceful political movement in Catalonia, which is
an autonomous region. Barcelona is the capital. There's a population there that thinks that they should separate and be an independent state. Whatever
your views on that, these are peaceful politicians and civil society members.
And what we found there, I followed the work of a watchdog group called Citizen Lab, was that there was one of the largest clusters of hacking
victims in the world. Just one politician after another. These are European Parliament members in some cases. And we show in the film these cases of
politicians testing their phones and finding out they've been hacked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The iPhone will generate a diagnostic file which won't include personal data. We just received
confirmation that your phone was hacked twice. Once on the 11th of June and then again on the 27th of June.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): 2020?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): 2020.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When does it look like you were infected?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to check the date, but around that day I was appointed member of the European Parliament.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel knowing that you may have been compromised in this way?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I feel surprised and angry at the same time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FARROW: And they don't know what sensitive conversations have been disgorged. They don't know if the Spanish government is going to retaliate
against them. And in the U.S., we have been, as a government, flirting with this technology. Parties in power on both sides of the aisle have purchased
this tech, have explored using it, have come close to it under the first Trump administration. The FBI did purchase Pegasus, one of these infamous
forms of technology. They said for testing. There's a lot of evidence that they intended to do more than testing. It seems like it hasn't been
deployed operationally yet.
But in my latest story, I talk about how they have -- despite some efforts under the Biden administration to limit the government's ability to
purchase foreign spyware, they've gone ahead and purchased more. Under the Biden administration, the Department of Homeland Security just purchased
another really potent form of Israeli spyware technology, a software called Graphite built by a firm called Paragon. That contract is currently being
reviewed.
But you're going to have a situation where the new administration comes into power in this country with this kind of tech at its fingertips, and
this is a new administration that has threatened to go after journalists, to go after opposition members.
So, you can see why privacy rights advocates. And democracy advocates are really fearful about the potential for this happening here, as it has
happened increasingly in so many places where people didn't expect it.
MARTIN: One of the most famous -- I don't know if -- when you say infamous companies in this field is the NSO group known for Pegasus, their software.
You were actually invited inside their headquarters in Tel Aviv in 2022. What did they say about what they do and what the capabilities of it are
and why they do it?
[13:45:00]
FARROW: The whole framework for the debate around this technology is what we see all the time in terms of powerful intrusive law enforcement tools,
which is there's an argument that theoretically, it can be a really good thing for law enforcement investigations.
And I talked to in this film, for instance, law enforcement officials from western democracies, where, by the way, the public doesn't know that they
have and are using Pegasus. And I hear the argument from the law enforcement officials saying, well, we love to be able to completely open
up anyone's phone anytime we want. And they say they use it to target terrorists.
So, that's the kind of the show that's put on by advocates of this technology. And that's what I get in the film when I go into NSO's offices,
they say, look, we're trying to make this technology to help the good guys in law enforcement. But then, I interview, on background, in shadow,
whistleblowers who have left that firm because of ethical objections.
And what they point out is that the business model of these top spyware makers is often really skewed, where the western democracies that put a
good face on this and say that they're using it with at least some limitations get a really low fee and the bread and butter of the business,
the giant fees come from places like Saudi Arabia, where really the spyware makers know that the client is going to be using it to quash dissent.
And what the spyware makers themselves say, the top lawyer at NSO Group is on camera saying this in this film, is that they're basically arms
manufacturers. And that it's not their fault, in their view, that there's no equivalent to the Geneva Conventions for this really powerful tool that
is in practice a weapon that can really harm democratic values.
MARTIN: So, the NSO Group is based in Israel. Does the Israeli government maintain any control over who they sell to?
FARROW: Yes. So, the Israeli spy firms, particularly NSO Group, make the argument that their client selection and activities are all tightly
controlled by the Israeli authorities. And the fact that this is a technology that is flourishing out of Tel Aviv specifically is not an
accident, Michel. You know, this is a highly innovative tech setting in general with a really strong pool of talent, but it's also specifically a
place where people come out of mandatory military service, they come out of the intelligence units in the Israeli military, and they have a skill set
pretty early in their career after they serve, that they then apply starting these companies and working for these companies.
So, that's one reason why you have Israel at the forefront of this kind of private tech, and there's a really close relationship with the Israeli
government and these private spyware makers. For example, the NSO Group has been reported to be deploying its technology on behalf of the Israeli
government in its current conflict in the Palestinian territories to try to find hostages.
And by the way, on the other hand, we talked to Palestinian politicians in this film who say, look, it's not just in this current conflict, for years,
Israel has been using the Palestinian population as a lab that they surveil activists in that space.
MARTIN: So, let's go back to the United States. I want to mention that there is both the documentary and there's also a piece that you published
in The New Yorker. OK. In The New Yorker article, you detail how ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, acquired Paragon spyware technology
under the Biden administration with indications that it could be used more aggressively in the incoming Trump administration.
For the record, you spoke to Nathaniel Fick, the Biden administration's ambassador at large for cyberspace and digital policy. And he defended,
quote, "legitimate law enforcement and national security uses of these technologies." But let's -- you know, we are a couple of weeks away from
the Trump administration returning to office. They've made it very clear that they expect to have a very aggressive deportation policy. How might
this technology be used in the surface of that?
FARROW: Well, this is what privacy law advocates are so frightened about. You have, first of all, a legal framework for privacy protections and for
limiting this kind of spyware technology. That's very porous, Michelle. I mean, after some of my reporting, the Biden White House announced in some
of those stories I did that they would do a new executive order that would ostensibly limit the government's ability to purchase foreign spyware that
have been used abusively.
It still allows for plenty of new purchases of foreign spyware, which means more offices in the government can use it. It's more available. There's a
lower threshold and less examination of when it's used. There are no real clear standards laid out for how and when the government can use this.
[13:50:00]
And then, you have this incoming administration where every single privacy lawyer I've talked to has said, you know, not only can they exploit all of
those holes in the existing framework, they're not even sure that the incoming administration will care about the legal framework. You know, you
really do have incoming officials, administration members who have said that they disregard the law, that they view the executive as having
absolute power.
If we have a combination of a disregard for any guardrails, and this technology already being at the fingertips of the government, the
consequences are genuinely frightening to me. It's one of the first times I've been afraid as a journalist, you know, even as one who's dealt with a
fair amount of intimidation. There's always been a legal framework to limit the intrusions on the work that we do in our profession.
And, you know, if you lose the space for opposition conversations, for investigations to try to hold people in power to account, you lose the
potential for the next Watergate, for the next Pentagon Papers. That's something we should all care about, I think. And in this case, the
Department of Homeland Security has this technology. The Biden administration says they've paused the contract. They're reviewing it. But
it's very powerful phone hacking technology, and you could easily see how ICE specifically, under the Department of Homeland Security, could deploy
that in the context of a mandate of mass immigrations, which is what Trump has promised.
MARTIN: I mean, I think people would argue that if you are in the country out of status, then why shouldn't the government know where you are?
FARROW: Well, I think there's two responses to that. One is even for people who are caught up in the immigration issues at play here, people who
are here in a completely permissible way and they're awaiting immigration proceedings of some kind, people who are here illegally, I think that there
is also a good argument from human rights advocates that the private communications of those people shouldn't be up for grabs without a specific
law enforcement warrant that is about more than just their status.
And what I've heard from these privacy law experts again and again is technology purchased by the Department of Homeland Security specifically,
that's often the institution that gets the technology that is legally questionable, because they have a clear national security rationale that
shields them from scrutiny of it. And once it's in the hands of DHS, what I've been told again and again is, you can't guarantee that it's just being
used by ICE. We don't know the answer to that, because there hasn't been transparency on that.
So, I think it's pivotal that individuals demand Congress demands, going forward, that there is more transparency about who's using this technology
and when. So, this is really going to be a protection that has to come through checks and balances, through an outside counterbalance in the form
of Congress. You know, this is a largely unregulated space that I think the history that you just described shows us desperately needs regulation as
the technology becomes more pervasive and more intrusive.
MARTIN: What about Paragon? Did the company have anything to say about the way their technology might be used in these immigration efforts that we've
talked about?
FARROW: There are two camps in this industry. There are the people who see all of the scandals that have emerged around NSO Group, and their response
is, well, we're going to keep selling to the bad guys, and we're going to be more secretive about it. And then, there are the players who see the
lucrative market for selling to the American government and other big western governments. And they realize that those governments are going to
be averse to association with scandal.
And so, they try to present themselves as a cleaner alternative. Paragon is one of those companies. Part of their pitch is, well, we're going to police
more expertly whether our technology is abused. You know, we're going to be a little cleaner about which client states we deal with. We're not going to
deal with the real bad guys. That was also the pitch that NSO Group made. Whether Paragon succeeds in that, we don't know, but that is what they say.
They say, look, we're trying to limit ourselves to countries that aren't going to abuse this.
And a source at that company told me that the vetting process that led to the Department of Homeland Security purchasing their technology included
them demonstrating over and over again that they had robust mechanisms for preventing their other client states from spying on Americans. But
pivotally, and there's no guardrails on DHS itself, spying on Americans. Those guardrails have to come from within.\
MARTIN: Ronan Farrow, thanks so much for talking with us.
FARROW: Thank you, Michelle. Always a pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And Ronan's HBO original documentary "Surveilled" is available to stream on Max, which of course is part of the parent company of CNN.
[13:55:00]
And finally, as the days get shorter and the nights get colder, the Festival of Lights is bringing warmth to the French city of Lyon. Two
million visitors are expected to visit this weekend for its 25th anniversary, but it's not the only city chasing away the winter blues. The
holidays have officially arrived in New York with the annual lighting of the Rockefeller Christmas tree. It's been bringing festive cheer to the big
city since 1931.
That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find it right after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always catch us online, our
website, all across social media. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
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