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Amanpour
Interview with Father Held Hostage in Gaza Sharone Lifschitz; Interview with Displaced Palestinian Living in Rafah Daiana Al-Bukhari; Interview with Palestinian Poet Mosab Abu Toha; Interview with University of Haifa History Professor Emeritus Fania Oz-Salzberger. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired December 23, 2024 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. As power passes in Washington
from Joe Biden to Donald Trump, we look back at the people directly impacted by Israel's war. First --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARONE LIFSCHITZ, FATHER HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA: Every day, every moment, we are with them there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: with almost a hundred hostages still unaccounted for in Gaza, I speak with Sharone Lifschitz, whose 84-year-old father is still in
captivity.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAIANA AL-BUKHARI, DISPLACED PALESTINIAN LIVING IN RAFAH: We are humans, we deserve better life, we deserve peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Sharing stories of life under siege online. We hear from displaced Palestinian Daiana Al-Bukhari.
Also --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOSAB ABU TOHA, PALESTINIAN POET: The future, you know, is very disparate. The present is very disparate, unfortunately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Palestinian poet Mosab Abu Toha reflects on his family's harrowing flight out of Gaza. And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FANIA OZ-SALZBERGER, HISTORY PROFESSOR EMERITUS, UNIVERSITY OF HAIFA: This is certainly not the kind of war that I and many other Israelis would have
liked to fight against Hamas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- I talk with Israeli historian and writer, Fania Oz- Salzberger, about the sorrow and morality of this war.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. The election of Donald Trump will likely have a major impact across the Middle
East. In Israel, Trump's win is also seen as a win for Prime Minister Netanyahu. In his first term, Trump backed Israel on everything from moving
the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem, to recognizing Israel's annexation of the Golan Heights.
Now, Trump seems poised to support Israeli settlers' ultimate goal, that is the annexation of the occupied West Bank, and perhaps even parts of Gaza,
which would be the final blow for any lingering dreams of Palestinian statehood.
So, today, as Trump once again prepares to take control, we look back at how the war is impacting both sides. And we begin where the Gaza war began
with the devastating attack by Hamas on Israel on October 7, 2023. That's when Sharone Lifschitz learned that her 85-year-old mother and her 83-year-
old father were among the 251 Israelis taken hostage.
Her mother was freed shortly after the attack. Her father is still in Gaza. They don't know if he's alive. I spoke with Sharone in London in April, six
months after the attack. Then, as now, she was advocating fiercely for the remaining hostages to be released.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Sharone Lifschitz, welcome back to the program. It is actually extraordinary that we're sitting here talking again, and it is six months.
SHARONE LIFSCHITZ, FATHER HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA: Yes. It's unbelievable. It's a failure.
AMANPOUR: What do you mean?
LIFSCHITZ: I -- even before -- I don't need to say who has caused this failure. But, if a 134 people are still held hostage after six months of
war, we, as the hostage families, have not managed to press upon whoever it is to bring them back home and how important it is.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that attempt, that movement by the hostage families is gaining momentum now? Do you think -- we see, for instance, families
storming the part of the Knesset. We see these protests that have risen much, much more in recent weeks as the ceasefire and hostage release
negotiations seem to be stalled.
LIFSCHITZ: The hostage families come from all walks of life in Israel. There are so many of them, and they have different opinion and they're
exercising their democratic rights within Israel. Many do not feel that enough is being done. We're desperate. We have fought so hard for six
months. We never imagined that our loved one will still be there. And for us, every day, every moment, we are with them there. We are underground. We
are in the hospital where they are lying. We are called with them. We are desperate with them.
AMANPOUR: We know, and I said your mother, fortunately, was one of the first to be released, and that was in October, shortly after she was taken
captive. But, your 83-year-old father, Oded, remains hostage. Have you in these six months heard anything about him?
[13:05:00]
LIFSCHITZ: My mom came back and told us, and we must remember, she came back without a deal, she told us that our dad was dead. The hostages that
came back later told us that he was seen in Gaza. He was seen in Al-Nasser Hospital on the first day. And one of the hostages was with him in the same
room for a period. After that, we have no knowledge of him. So, we assume he is still out there. We assume he is suffering tremendously because he is
very, very frail. He is 83. He has got medical conditions. And --
AMANPOUR: And was he injured when he was captured?
LIFSCHITZ: He was injured. A bullet that came through the door injured him. He was beaten. He was lying --
AMANPOUR: Beaten.
LIFSCHITZ: Yes. And he was lying unconscious outside the house. That's the last my mom saw of him after 63 years of marriage.
AMANPOUR: And she said, because I heard in a recent interview, that she couldn't even -- she was grabbed in her nightclothes, put onto a
motorcycle. She couldn't even tend to her husband of 63 years. You've been back, obviously since she is released, and you've been spending time with
her and your family. How is she doing? How is your (INAUDIBLE) doing?
LIFSCHITZ: My mom is a strong woman. I don't feel that she is broken as a person. Her beliefs remain as they were. She have seen a lot of the world
and she have been through the most enormous ordeal. She is also part of a community that is really broken. We have lost. We are a community of 400.
40 are dead and buried. 10 of them are still held hostages that are dead. 27 live hostages are still being held by Hamas.
We are devastated. We're broken. And as a small community, we do a lot to try and support each other through it.
AMANPOUR: The community you're talking about is near Oz, yes, the kibbutz that they found it along with their friends. Is there anything remaining of
that? Will that ever be home to anybody again?
LIFSCHITZ: I believe it would be. I believe that we will come back. We are working on it. Some people are working on it. Some people will not come
back but maybe others would. I feel that the ideas that this community stood for, these ideas deserve to continue.
AMANPOUR: One of the ideas that this community stood for was actually being part of the peace camp, the Israeli peace camp, and actually trying
to help Palestinians who needed inside Gaza, and maybe even on the occupied territories. I don't know. But your mother has also said that it's not
bombs and aircraft and tanks that are going to bring back, Oded, your dad and the others. It is a diplomatic solution. Do you have any hope, A, that
your government will create some kind of a solution, and, B, are you scared that this horrendous, consistent bombing, and we've seen how many
Palestinian civilians have been killed, puts your family and others in danger?
LIFSCHITZ: I think they are in danger every day. Obviously, they're in danger from the bombing. But, they -- we know, and we've seen last week the
reports about women being raped there. We know that they're treated in a really horrible way, many of them. And so, we are petrified for them every
day.
AMANPOUR: In every way.
LIFSCHITZ: In every way.
AMANPOUR: Your mother, what did she tell you about how she was treated? Everybody saw her release and her saying Shalom to the -- one of the
captors. It was a human moment. What did she say about how she was treated, violently, badly?
LIFSCHITZ: My mom was taken on a motorbike. She is 85-year-old, and she was put like a carpet on a motorbike. She was taken through the field after
she just saw my father lying and thought he is dead. She could see the place on fire. And hundreds of civilians were running towards her with
sticks and with knives, and they were shouting, Itbah Al-Yahud and Allahu Akbar.
AMANPOUR: Means?
LIFSCHITZ: Kill the Jews, and God is great. After that, she met people, and my mom believed in shared humanity. She is the person who truly believe
in people, and she herself was able to distinguish between people. That person she talked to, who was a paramedic, spoke to her kindly, and she
respond in kindness. She has also seen horrendous, horrendous things.
[13:10:00]
AMANPOUR: I was struck by the fact that she says -- she thinks she saw in a tunnel or in one of the rooms in which she was captured, Yahya Sinwar,
the mastermind of all of this, and that she confronted this person who she thought was Sinwar. I mean, it's remarkable to hear her tell it.
LIFSCHITZ: I think she speaks truth to power, wherever it is. She is -- she was unafraid. She felt that the worst has happened. And she didn't know
what the future holds. But, she held on to her truth, and that's something we all have to learn from.
AMANPOUR: And she said --
LIFSCHITZ: And she said -- well, she told him, why us? I don't believe anybody deserve what will happen to us. So, while she said it, because she
was a peace activist, I don't feel any civilian deserve the atrocities of the seventh of October.
AMANPOUR: And did he respond?
LIFSCHITZ: No. I don't think he is the kind of person that respond.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you about your father, because even before he had written many times about Israel, about the situation, and he had had
written also about the state of security or non-security. In an op-ed in Haaretz in 2019, he said about Netanyahu. He is not Israel's defender,
saying that his image, as protector, the ultimate security man, was misguided, and that Bibi had already failed in his promise for security of
the Iran nuclear program and the northern border and other such thing. And he said, and this is a quote, "When Gazans have nothing to lose, we lose
big time." Can you reflect on what he said in 2019 and whether it's still relevant today?
LIFSCHITZ: I think it's absolutely relevant today, Christiane. I think that the whole point of, even if you believe in military activity, is to
reach long-term agreements, and this is why I'm here as well. I'm here because these hostages must come home now. That's the best way of reaching
a ceasefire, and it's the best way of then building towards the work that my parents have spent their life doing, which is reaching long- term
agreements with our neighbors. It's not easy. Work of peace is not an easy work. It's dirty, and it's gray, and it's imperfect and you have to give up
on a lot.
And I think that we forget it. We feel that it's a white dove, and I feel that it's a dirty, dirty dove. But it gives us the hope that our children
and grandchildren might have a place that my parents will recognize. And I think that my father, I can't speak for what he thinks now. I don't want
to. But everything he ever taught us was that if you don't get -- make peace, which is the hard work, you get war, which is the failure of it.
My father believed in peace. He believed that we have partners to do peace with. He hated Hamas. He would be horrified that how often Hamas is missing
from the equation of what is happening in Gaza. For him, an organization is a place itself in hospitals and schools. And most would be -- will be the
worse.
He knew who Hamas was. He had friends in Gaza that had to escape because Hamas took over. And we have to make peace with these people, with the
people that came to our community and murdered. And the whole world is looking at us and saying, why are you doing that? And I don't want to
answer that. I'm not a militant -- a military person. I'm not a political strategist. But I do believe in humanity and I believe that we will have to
reach deal with these people in spite of all of that, and that both sides will have to take a long, hard look in the mirror.
When people in Gaza talk about us as if we are all the same. We are not all the same. There is many people in Israel fighting now for this long-term
solutions. Israel is not all the same. And we are not able to say about Hamas. All of Gaza is Hamas. We are asked to make a distinction between
civilian and non-civilians, even after those hundreds of civilians entered our kibbutz and did what they did.
AMANPOUR: Do you think then that, given what you say, do you think that Israel and Israelis are still so traumatized that they're not actually
seeing the fact that Palestinians are not being distinguished in Gaza, that they are being bombed and they are being starved and they are being killed
and they're mounting up, you know, it's like 33,000 dead, including thousands of thousands of children.
[13:15:00]
You are wearing your hostage -- I can just see, you're wearing your ribbons and things. Are you expected, and can you and can the others feel their
pain as well? And I wonder what you think that will leave as a backlash.
LIFSCHITZ: I think that on the seventh of October, the pendulum has swung harder than I ever imagined possible. We, in Israel, we are very
traumatized. We are deeply traumatized. And I think some people do not see the pain of the other side. I can speak for myself that I demand of myself
to see the pain of the other side. And I want to believe in our shared humanity. It is very hard to see the pain that others in Gaza are
suffering. And I hope very much that we both end up with leaders that tell us the truth, that lead us to a sensible existence on both sides. This
truth is badly missing. It's missing from Gaza and it's missing from Israel.
AMANPOUR: And it seems to be reaching a pinnacle, again, of just violence with no view into a more peaceful future. So, I wanted to end, because we
have some beautiful imagery of your father playing the piano, and he was a musician and is a musician, and I just wanted to play it and just have you
reflect on some of the joy that you experienced as a family. We're going to listen to a little bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: That's Oded. He is somewhere in captivity right now.
LIFSCHITZ: Yes. I hope they're treating nice and I hope he will come back to us. He is a remarkable person. He really believed that we should both
write letters to the leaders of the world to tell them how to solve the problem of the world. He wrote to Obama several times. And he believed that
we should help our neighbors. And he spent his retirement driving Palestinians from the border to hospitals when they were ill. And I would
ask him, what did they say? And he will talk to them. He spoke good Arabic. And I hope that he knows we love him.
AMANPOUR: I'm sure he does. Sharone Lifschitz, thank you.
LIFSCHITZ: You're welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now, a look inside Gaza. Daiana Al-Bukhari has been bravely documenting life there during wartime for more than 100,000 followers on
her social media feeds.
On October 7th this year, the first anniversary of the war, Daiana reported that bombs are still dropping, families are still suffering in Gaza, and
she asked, quote, "How many more voices must scream for this= to end?"
When I spoke to her from Gaza in March, we talked about her struggle to provide herself and her family even the most basic human necessities.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Daiana, tell me what the -- what daily food and water is to you? What access do you have?
DAIANA AL-BUKHARI, DISPLACED PALESTINIAN LIVING IN RAFAH: Actually, it's a struggle to me. I wake up every day, I just think how I how I will get the
water or the food. I have to wait in line to get some food or water. While the weather, it's not healthy. We use the same water to drink and shower
and to wash the dishes and for everything. So, the water, it's not healthy.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to play a little video from something you have recorded, because you have followers and you're posting your daily life.
So, I'm going to play this little video now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL-BUKHARI: Hi, it's Daiana from Gaza. Today, I want to show you where I live with my family since I evacuated to Rafah. Actually, I lived in this
small space because we share one class with many families. So, we have only this small space.
And you might ask me why we arranged these tables this way. Actually, it is my mom's idea. She thinks that when we put our heads this way, protects us
from any bombings or any airstrikes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Wow. So, you're telling people that not only do you not have enough to eat and drink, but you also have to worry about the bombs and the
drones overhead. Have you experienced that? What is it like when your environment is bombed?
[13:20:00]
AL-BUKHARI: It's so scary. You know, I'm 22 years old and I live through all that. You know, it's OK about me. What about the little children? Just
think about them. Put yourself, or think how if you're child, instead of them, under these bombs, what will you do?
They are humans, they are just a child. We are human, we deserve better life. We deserve peace, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Daiana, tell me how the children and the younger people in your family group react.
AL-BUKHARI: I think all of us have trauma now. They all have a trauma. They keep -- think with their hands this way. They are afraid all the time.
They're shaking like this all time. We all have trauma now, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you something very basic?
AL-BUKHARI: Just to survive, Christiane. We try just to survive. Can you imagine?
AMANPOUR: Yes, you try to survive.
AL-BUKHARI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you something just as basic. How do you go to the bathroom? How you have, you know, places, especially women, who need
feminine hygiene, who need, you know, proper sanitation, who can't go out to back of a tent and just, you know, pee like men do? How do take care of
those needs?
AL-BUKHARI: Yes. Actually, you asked me about all the struggles. You know, I just figured out that all my life is a struggle right now. I have to wait
to use the bathroom. I have to wait for hours to take a shower. About the sanitary pads, it's not always available. So, I try to find wherever I can
find, to use it as a sanitary pad. And it's not only my situation, it's all the girls' situation here.
AMANPOUR: And how many meals a day do you eat? As bad as it is in the north, what do you eat and how many people are you living with in your
space?
AL-BUKHARI: Actually, I am lucky if I got like two meals a day. I try just to eat one meal, so we can have food for the other day. And I share the
space, the classroom I live in, with many families. Like 10 families, I think.
AMANPOUR: And what's it like when you can't communicate, not just to people like me, but people -- your neighbors, people who may still be in
Gaza City who you know, people in the north?
AL-BUKHARI: There's no answer. Most of them don't have electricity and solar power, so they can't contact with me. So, I have no idea about them.
I have nothing to know about that.
AMANPOUR: And Daiana, are you and your family and friends and the people you're with in Rafah, are they afraid of a ground offensive or some kind of
massive offensive, Israeli offensive on Rafah?
AL-BUKHARI: Actually, they are all very scared. More innocent people will be killed. No one wants more fighting. We are praying for peace. The world
must take action to prevent modern century massacre in Rafah. If that happens, it will be a modern century massacre, Christiane, in Rafah.
Based on what we have seen, a ground invasion of Rafah would mean the death and suffering of thousands. There are innocent people. Imagine an army
attacking the last place to live, you have left to go. Imagine you are a child with no parents in Rafah.
You know, most of the child lost their of parents here. Who will keep you safe? The world leaders must protect us, Christiane. You know this war, or
this genocide showed us how the people are going to tell the leaders how they feel. It showed us the truth, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Daiana, thank you very, very much. And we will continue to pursue your stories. Thank you very much indeed. Good luck to you. Stay
safe.
AL-BUKHARI: You're welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Reports from inside Gaza, like Daiana's, are crucial because they're rare. The Netanyahu government severely restricts access to us, the
international press, and to the Israeli media as well. Palestinian journalists have been on the ground in Gaza have been detained and even
killed. So, we also rely on others, on doctors, aid workers, and in the case of my next guest, a poet.
[13:25:00]
Mosab Abu Toha is a celebrated artist, a former Harvard fellow who lived in Gaza most of his life. He and his family were able to escape first to
Egypt, then to the United States. And when I spoke with him in the spring, he shared his reflections on life and death in Gaza, especially for the
family and friends he's had to leave behind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Mosab Abu Toha, welcome back to the program.
TOHA: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: You're in Cairo now, but the last time we spoke to you in Gaza, there had been an Israeli attack, and you basically left. You were able to
get out of Gaza. Do you know what's happening inside with your family right now?
TOHA: What I know is that my parents and my siblings, three of them, and their children, the youngest is one-month-old. The boy was born last month.
They are still stuck in Jabalya Camp. They are unable to find food.
I was on a call with my younger brother, who is the father of this one- month-old baby. He told me that the last time they could eat some meat was 16 days ago, which was before the start of the holy month of Ramadan. And
he was -- I mean, I'm honest, he's crying to me. He said, we have been looking for food. We have been running after some food that is dropped from
the sky by some planes.
And by the way, some of the food fell in the sea. And some people went inside, went into the sea, and some drowned. The last time I was able to
hear my mother's voice was also 20 days ago. There is no way of hearing what is happening to your family except when there is any breaking news
that, God forbid, would mention the names of your family members.
AMANPOUR: Mosab, you know, you talk about this horrible, horrible hunger and starvation that's being experienced by your own family. And, you know,
it is Ramadan, as we said. It is meant to be a time when families can get together and at least once a day have a breakfast, get-together around
food.
What are they doing? Are they able to even congregate?
TOHA: Well, in fact, many of the families are scattered around the Gaza Strip. I have two siblings who are in Rafah right now living in tents. They
are separated from my parents. They cannot be returned to be with my parent and other siblings in North Gaza. So, families that are separate from each
other.
There are other families who lost most of their family members. There were families no longer with us this month.
AMANPOUR: And I think, if you remember, that convoy that Israel took in several weeks ago, where over 100 people ended up dying, trying to get food
on that convoy. There was shooting, there was a stampede. One of your relatives also was killed there, right?
TOHA: It was not a relative of mine. It was a very close friend of mine named Nasim (ph). I read some news about the killing of a whole family. I
scrolled down to look at the previous news from that page that listed the names of the people. And I found that my close friend was killed in that
massacre, the wheat (ph) massacre.
So, the family, we mourned the death of their oldest child one day before they themselves were buried under the rubble of their house. The whole
family was killed. And there is no one who was left alive to mourn the death of the family members.
The other relative who was killed of mine was my wife's uncle. He was born deaf and mute. He was kidnapped from inside an honor school where he was
sheltering in Beit Lahia, North Gaza. He was taken along with other young men. The next day he was released. So, he went back to the school where he
was taken from to reunite with his wife and his two other children. The youngest is a few months old. When he arrived at the gate of the school, he
was shot by an Israeli sniper.
AMANPOUR: Mosab, it's hard, hard to hear this. And I'm going to get to what happened to you, actually. You were detained when you tried to leave.
And in a moment, I'm going to get to that.
But first, I want to ask you because you are an artist, you're a writer, you're a poet. And we've heard and we've read not only your accounts of the
destruction, not just of lives, but of culture and of institutions, whether it's the cultural institution that was built in the '80s, whether it's the
seventh century mosque, whether it's libraries and the zoo and everything else. And I just wanted you to reflect on that as well. The destruction of
Gaza as a center of civilization?
TOHA: Well, Gaza has a lot of history. People in Gaza value history, value arts, value poetry and novels and every kind of, you know, culture that
people celebrate around the world.
[13:30:00]
I think what Israel is doing is not only getting rid of people that they have been wanting to get rid of for a long time, but they are trying to get
rid of whatever reminds people of their lives in Gaza. I mean, they are not bombing one house or two houses. They are detonating neighborhoods.
AMANPOUR: And in fact, figures show from overhead aerial photography and from accounts from inside that something like 70 percent of buildings have
been either destroyed or damaged in the last five to six months.
But I want to ask you to read a little bit from one of your poems, one of the latest ones. So, if you could read a few lines of "What Is Home?"
TOHA: Yes. So, this is called "What Is Home?", and it's from my poetry collection, "Things You May Find Hidden in My Ear."
What is home? It is the shade of trees on my way to school before they were uprooted. It is my grandparents' black and white wedding photo before the
walls crumble. It is my uncle's prayer rug where dozens of ants slept on wintry nights before it was looted and put in a museum. It is the oven my
mother used to bake bread and roast the chicken before a bomb reduced our house to ashes. It is the cafe where I watched football matches and played.
My child stops me. Can a four-letter word hold all of these?
AMANPOUR: It's very, very poignant. It's very poignant. And so, I need to ask you, what has happened to your home? As I said, when we first
interviewed you months ago, you sat in front of a bookcase full of your books that you have painstakingly bought, collected, and kept over the
years. What remains?
TOHA: Well, you know, you reminded me of this and it brings tears to my eyes. I mean, I've built my own home library by bringing with me from my
trips to the States. I traveled to the United States three times before the war.
And by the way, I returned to Gaza 10 days before the October 7th happened. I used to bring with me -- well, the first time I returned to Gaza, I
brought with me 120 books. Some of them were signed by authors, friends. The second time I returned, I brought with me 70 books. And the last time I
brought with me 20 books.
I mean, the destruction of a house is something, but the destruction of what used to be inside the house is something that cannot be built.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
TOHA: The memories that I have built with my children, you know, the blankets that I brought with me as gifts from my friends in the States,
some of the souvenirs. I mean, I now remember the shield that I got as an award for my Palestine Book Award.
There are many things that I lost. But fortunately, none of my family members were killed. When I talk about my tragedy, I see it as a small
thing compared to what happened to other people when I remember that many of my friends, including the Hamdona (ph) family, that my friends' whole
family were buried under the rubble of their house. I mean, I see my tragedy as something very small.
AMANPOUR: It's really horrible, and it's affecting the whole world as well. And I want to ask you to go back to November when you finally decided
to leave. And on your way out, you were arrested and held in detention for a period of time. You wrote about it in "The New Yorker."
Tell me what happened. You were arrested and held for many hours. Why? What was the reason given?
TOHA: Well, I think, for me, as a Gazan, I mean, to be a Gazan is a reason for Israel to kill you, to kidnap you, to wound you. I was -- by the way, I
was wounded when I was 16 years old, in 2008 and 2009 Israeli onslaught on Gaza. I was 16. I survived. And I was kidnapped by the Israeli army when I
was trying to cross from North Gaza, as we all were directed by the Israeli army, to cross from south -- from North Gaza, where we were staying, and
sheltering at an (INAUDIBLE) school, to South Gaza to leave with my family.
So, our youngest son was -- is an American citizen. He was born in Boston when I was doing my fellowship at Harvard University. So, we were directed
by the American embassy to head to the Rafah Border Crossing.
So, these lists, by the way, the list that list people's name to cross through Rafah is approved by the Israeli authority. So, I was -- I had zero
speculations that they would call on to me. But they called to me, I dropped my boy when the Israeli soldier shouted at me, drop the boy, don't
come with him, drop the boy and drop your belongings and come to us.
[13:35:00]
They took me to an area that's a few meters away from the Israeli jeep. I was forced to take off all my clothes, even my boxer shorts in the front of
the three Israeli soldiers, who two of them were pointing their guns at me and the person next to me. And the third soldier was saying orders, drop
your clothes, drop your I.D.s, et cetera.
I was trying to tell them, hey, please talk to me. I am going to Rafah, I have an American citizen, this is an American passport, but they didn't pay
attention to anything. And some of this -- one of the soldiers said to the other, oh, onra (ph). And then I said, yes, I'm a teacher. He said, shut
up, son of a -- I was shocked by the way they were talking to me, although there was no proof that I did anything to them.
But on the contrary, I was harmed. My family was harmed. Our house was bombed. I lost a lot of our friends. I was wounded when I was 16. So, I am
the victim. I have been the victim before October 7th. But that's nothing to them, because they don't see us as people who have been occupied and
oppressed for decades, not only for days or weeks.
AMANPOUR: You were released after 50 hours, and they basically said, sorry about the mistake. This is the response we got from them. During IDF
operations in the Gaza Strip, there was intelligence indicating of a number of interactions between several civilians and terror organizations inside
the Gaza Strip. The civilians, among them, Mosab Abu Toha, were taken into questioning. After the questioning, he was released.
Then they end by saying, the IDF strategy adheres to international law, aiming to minimize civilian casualties, contrasting Hamas' intentional
targeting of Israeli civilians.
TOHA: Well, first of all, this is something they said to CNN, to any, you know, agency or any magazine reached out to them about me. But in fact,
they are not correct. They did not only investigate me, they blindfolded me, they handcuffed me, they tortured me. They kicked me in the face. They
kicked me in my stomach. They kept me on my knees for hours.
And when they released me, they didn't give me back my -- our passports, neither the American passport, neither the Palestinian passport. They
didn't return my wallet, my debit card, my credit cards, my watch, my clothes. So, they did not only investigate me, you know?
AMANPOUR: All right. Well, OK, let me just read this then. Detainees -- this is the IDF again. Detainees are treated in line with international
standards, including necessary checks for concealed weapons. The IDF prioritizes detainee dignity and will review any deviations from particles.
So, Mosab, they're going to review it, they say. I can see you grinning. Because we've heard this a lot.
TOHA: Well, we'll we see.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But now I want to --
TOHA: Yes, what we in see the street of Palestinian people, you know, naked and, you know -- and walked in the straight with only books and
shorts in their call, you know, this has nothing to do with dignity.
AMANPOUR: Let me though end by asking you this, because you have also written recently about a future and you write, I hope that when the war
ends, I can go back to Gaza to help rebuild my family home and fill it with books. That one day all Israelis can see us as their equals, as people who
need to live on our own land in safety and prosperity, and build a future.
How does this end, Mosab? How do you see it ending?
TOHA: Well, I mean, the future, you know, is very desperate. That's it. The present is very desperate, unfortunately. Nothing is changing. I mean,
I think what -- the change needs not to come only from inside Israel, but the change should be coming from the American administration.
The American administration is trying to, I think, correct some of its mistake by trying to drop some food in Gaza, but I think this is not the
right way to do it. I thank the American administration, alongside -- along with dropping some food aid to Gazans, they should, and they must stop
shipping, not dropping, shipping, you know, decently some weapons to Israel, which in turn drops these weapons on Gazan.
I mean, I think I this change should come from the free people of the world, And I hope the American administration would help achieve peace by
enforcing it, by stopping sending more and more weapons to Israel.
AMANPOUR: And, I guess, finally, what should Palestinians do? It might be a difficult question to ask you now, given the level of slaughter and the
terrible starvation, the brink of famine. and more than 32,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza. What should they do? What about Hamas? I mean, it
has responsibility as well.
[13:40:00]
TOHA: Let's say Hamas was established in 1987. I mean, the Palestinian cause didn't start in 1987. So, the problem is not -- I think is only with
Hamas. Hamas could be a problem. It has been -- you know, it has not been good to many of us in Gaza. You know, there is always some conflict between
the government or whoever rules over people and with the people themselves.
So, Hamas is not loved by all Gazans. Many people wanted to get rid of Hamas, but not by killing them, of course. So, I think what Palestinians
need to have is to not have anyone control them, because we need our own country. We need to decide who would rule over us, just like anyone in the
world. About a million people in Gaza, half of Gaza's population, are under the age of 19, which means that they were born in 2004, and the elections
were in 2006.
So, half the population in Gazza did not vote for Hamas, including me, who is now 31 years old. I'm 31 years old. I've never voted in my life.
AMANPOUR: Understood. Mosab Abu Toha, thank you so much for joining us.
TOHA: Thank you, Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now, back inside Israel, Fania Oz-Salzberger is an emeritus professor of history at the University of Haifa, and she's the daughter of
the renowned Israeli novelist, Amos Oz. Like him, she is a self-proclaimed peacenik.
When I spoke with her earlier this year, some Israelis were wrestling with the moral balance over their shocking loss and trauma, and that being
inflicted by their own government on Palestinian civilians ever since. She joined me from Tel Aviv to talk about how artists and writers must rise up
to protect the very soul of her nation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Fania Oz-Salzberger, welcome to the program.
FANIA OZ-SALZBERGER, HISTORY PROFESSOR EMERITUS, UNIVERSITY OF HAIFA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, because you are an Israeli intellectual and there seems to be a number of your fellow intellectuals starting to -- I don't
know if question is the right word, but starting to talk about and write about the enormous cost in global acceptance, public opinion, that Israel
is suffering right now because of what is happening in Gaza with the death of 30,000 people, you know, starvation, famine, or all of those things that
you know?
OZ-SALZBERGER: Yes. So, yes, we have started -- we have not started actually, we've been at it for quite a while now. It was absolutely clear
that a war in Gaza will have a terrible toll, a terrible cost in human suffering in Gaza. And I think many of us knew this from the very
beginning. And still we felt and I still feel, as we talk now, that defeating Hamas is wholly necessary, it is morally right.
However, this is certainly not the kind of war that I and many other Israelis would have liked to fight against Hamas.
AMANPOUR: Do you think, as Yuval Noah Harari has said, that he fears for the soul of Israel? And I wonder whether you think -- given you've seen
with your own eyes these selfies that Israeli soldiers are taking of themselves in Gaza. Do you think that, you know, this is, I guess,
diminishing the self-proclaimed notion of the most moral army in the world?
OZ-SALZBERGER: I will not call any army in the world, the most moral army in the world. I think that this is a doomed kind of competition.
I do think that Israel, the Israel that I have grown up in, that I have known, that I have loved, that I still love, this kind of Israel has
attempted in the best possible way to diminish the suffering of both ourselves and our enemies, and certainly our enemies, civilians, and
innocents.
Gaza has innocent people. Not all civilians are innocent, unfortunately, but we cannot tell the difference when we fight. And hence, all civilians
deserve to be protected as best we can. I think that in this war, we have partially failed in doing that, although we have been trying.
The IDF has attempted to diminish the danger to civilians, not always successfully, and sometimes preferring the safety of our own soldiers to
the safety of local civilians. It is a complicated case. It is a horrible - - a set of horrible moral dilemmas.
[13:45:00]
And I certainly wish that another leadership, another prime minister, another kind of war cabinet would have been running this war, not the
previous wars where paradoxical, but this war is among the worst, perhaps the worst, perhaps the ugliest, perhaps the dirtiest that we ever had to
fight.
And still, Christiane, I have to say that we have to defeat Hamas, not disregarding the moral dilemmas, but doing our best, which we haven't,
unfortunately, but trying to keep doing our best for the innocent, for the unevolved.
AMANPOUR: How many Israelis do you think share that opinion? Because I know that the overwhelming majority of Israelis believe in this war. And as
you say, the overwhelming majority of Israelis also do not believe in the leadership of Benjamin Netanyahu, your current prime minister.
OZ-SALZBERGER: Well, first of all, let me say, and this is a caveat that I have to make absolutely clear, that unlike the rest of the world who is
watching us on the screens and moralizing from the armchair, we are a battered nation right now. We are not only heartbroken, so heartbroken that
sometimes it's difficult to be heartbroken for the civilians on the enemy side.
We are also mind-boggled, shocked, humiliated. Very few Israelis will admit that, but we might as well say that we also feel humiliated, terribly
saddened, and terribly scared with a sense of an ongoing crisis, the worst in our history for sure, and an ongoing sense of tragic loss.
I'm saying that this is not only in order -- not in order to play the victim's card. I don't believe in playing a victim's card, but I do believe
that many of us have been truly victimized on the 7th of October, and of course, the hostages are still suffering a horrible, horrible fate.
I am wearing, like so many Israelis do now, the bring them home token. And our heart, as it says, is captive in Gaza, we are not being totally
rational now. I don't think that we are sitting here, most of us, apart perhaps from a few very strong women and men, most of us are not weighing
the moral options and necessities in a totally rational way because we are deeply, deeply involved, hurt, injured, surprised in a negative way beyond
the capacity of many people to take up complications, nuances, to understand or to try to imagine the other side.
And having said that, I think that many Israelis believe that we should have had a humanitarian ceasefire and hostage exchange, another ceasefire
and hostage exchange months ago. So, alongside the fear and the sadness and the shock, there is also a mounting sense of anger among the Israeli
population against our own leadership, our coalition government and especially our prime minister.
AMANPOUR: You know, it's just so interesting to hear you say that. And I just want to, at this point, bring in an interview that I did with your own
father, the great novelist Amos Oz in 2010 with a Palestinian lawyer by the name of Elias Khoury, whose own son was killed by a Palestinian gunman, in
fact.
But this is what your father said to us about the story of the other, about the eventual day after, about the eventual solution. And I just want to
play this and see what you say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMOS OZ, ISRAEL AUTHOR: You know, it's difficult to be a prophet coming from the land of the prophets, but let me give you one prophecy. One day
there will be a Palestinian embassy in Israel and an Israeli embassy in Palestine, and those two embassies will be walking distance from one
another because one of them will be in East Jerusalem and the other one in West Jerusalem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, Fania, that was in 2010, 14 years ago.
OZ-SALZBERGER: Yes.
AMANPOUR: When you hear that, is that an extinguished hope, or is that a hope that this horror has relit? What do you think?
OZ-SALZBERGER: Well, my father had two kinds of hopes. I would not be a loyal daughter if I didn't sometimes disagree with him, but he believed
that peace is possible in our day and age, and he also believed in the two- state solution.
[13:50:00]
I unfortunately cannot use the word peace very easily after the 7th of October. I will not have peace with the brutes of Gaza, and I'm not talking
about all Gazans, of course, but about Hamas and its supporters, not in this generation, perhaps not in the next.
But I do strongly believe that the two-state solution is alive. It is the one-state solution, the idea that we will all live happily ever after as
fellow citizens in one, as people demand, a liberal secular state that I think is a fantasy for this day and age, but I believe strongly, as my
father did, that the two-state solution in reasonable neighborhood, perhaps not love, perhaps not full peace, perhaps not friendship, but reasonable
neighborhood across a solid fence this time should work and is, in fact, the only viable solution for the future of both Israel and Palestine.
AMANPOUR: And your father described himself as a peacenik, not a pacifist. What do you think he meant by that? And do you feel that as well?
OZ-SALZBERGER: Well, I remember him expanding on this. And yes, I feel the same. I'm certainly not a pacifist, because a pacifist is the kind of
person who facing aggression would lay down and die, or run away, or leave the country, as some people across the globe demand of us, to leave our
homeland and go back where, where, to the Jewish past, to the Holocaust.
I do believe that Israel should have a strong army. I'm proud that I also served as a soldier and an officer in the Israeli army many years ago. And
I think that this army is the only thing keeping us from being exterminated as a people and as a country in this part of the Middle East.
AMANPOUR: Why do you think it is the creatives, the writers, the artists like yourself and your -- and the others in Israel who are beginning to
have this open discussion now?
OZ-SALZBERGER: Because writers, Christiane and creators and artists are people who have already been injured. You don't become a great artist if
you do not have a wounded soul. And having a wounded soul usually means that you understand and empathize with the wounds of others. You are, as my
father used to say, capable of imagining the other.
Having said that, no, it is not only the writers and the artists who are coming forward to speak about the humanity of the other side and of course,
our own humanity that needs to be preserved. Many parts of Israeli civil society, including the veterans of the pro-democracy movement of last year,
many good people in this country, most part of the Arab citizens of Israel, the Israeli-Palestinians, my fellow citizens here, and much of the liberal
and centrist, left and central liberals, are people who would be willing to talk reason and to see reason and to move towards an international
guarantee agreement that is towards hope.
So yes, the artists, the writers, the poets may be leading the way, but a lot of good souls in this country which has not lost its soul as yet, a lot
of good souls will be able to chime in and to take part when a true process begins.
Again, perhaps not peace in our time, perhaps not reconciliation in an emotional sense, but a rational agreement leaving Israel within defensible
borders and a strong democracy alongside a viably stable Palestine is the only way we can move forward and this means hope.
So yes, I still follow my father and many other great Israeli women and men in the general hope for the future of all of us here of this wonderful Tel
Aviv whose lights are twinkling behind me. There is hope and we shall keep it up.
AMANPOUR: Well, we are happy to hear you voice that hope. Fania Oz- Salzberger, thank you so much for being with us.
OZ-SALZBERGER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, ever since this war began on this program, we have sought to hear the bridge builders, the brave souls who look beyond their
differences in search of common ground.
On October 7, 2024, the first anniversary of the Hamas invasion, we spoke to two of them, Israeli May Pundaak who leads A Land for All and
Palestinian Rana Salman co-director of Combatants for Peace, both bi national coalitions.
[13:55:00]
They feel hopeful, they say, because of new ideas coming from new generations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAY PUNDAAK, CHIEF EXECUTIVE A LAND FOR ALL: There's such despair, and it's growing every, every, every day. And the only way to fight that
despair is to create alternatives. An alternative vision, political imagination, and that has to be based on equality.
RANA SALMAN, COMBATANTS FOR PEACE: That's actually very inspiring and very empowering to us to see those young generations raising out their voices to
demand a ceasefire, to end this war, and to push towards a political solution that both nations are in desperate need to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And that is it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
