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Amanpour
Interview with U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas; Interview with "Hollywoodgate" Director Ibrahim Nash'at; Interview with Wine on Wheels Founder and Sommelier Yannick Benjamin. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired January 08, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Terrifying scenes as devastating wildfires bear down on L.A., forcing thousands to flee their homes.
Then, with Trump promising mass deportations on day one, I speak to the outgoing Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas on his record
and the biggest challenges facing the new administration.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YANNICK BENJAMIN, FOUNDER, WINE ON WHEELS AND SOMMELIER: I do believe that if there was some kind of universal healthcare plan, I would still be
there. I would do -- I would be able to give 100 percent. And be able to contribute, and maybe we would still be open.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Michel Martin speaks to restauranteur Yannick Benjamin about navigating systemic inequality in the culinary industry.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Massive destruction and harrowing escapes in Southern California as out of control wildfires sweep across Los Angeles County.
The noise is quite something. The fires are spread by a fierce windstorm with gusts reaching hurricane strength. Authorities say they've caused
deaths and significant injuries. Tens of thousands of people have been ordered to evacuate, and more than a hundred thousand -- and more than a
thousand buildings have been destroyed. First responders are focused on getting people out of harm's way, saving lives. This was the scene earlier
in Pacific Palisades.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This combination of this wind, which it does feel like I'm standing in a hurricane, except I'm getting pelted with
sand because the ocean is literally right there. And also, I'm surrounded by the smoke and embers that are flying off and like little pieces of ash
that are flying off as well.
You can see this building here, it's still on fire. In fact, every now and then, like right now, I get a wave of heat that actually just comes up off
the building and you can feel it here even across the highway. We watched as a part of that building burned down this morning. The top right-hand
corner burned down of that building.
And then, we saw this flooding of the area by firefighters, first responders who shut down Sunset Boulevard and are not letting anyone go up
there right now. They actually just roped it off. See that wind? It's really strong.
And then, more back here in this canyon on this side, too. It's unbelievable how the lighting has changed. When the sun was coming up, we
couldn't even really tell. And then there's waves of darkness here where we really can't see. And then, it clears up again because the smoke is just so
thick.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Stephanie Elam reporting on what it feels and looks like out there. Now, extreme weather events are on the rise, and just one of the
many threats that crossed the desk of my first guest tonight. Alejandro Mayorkas has served as Homeland Security Secretary for the past four years,
when immigration numbers became a major concern for voters, including in the election.
Well, much focus has been on immigration and Trump's plans for mass deportations, the domestic terror attack in New Orleans over New Year's is
a reminder of the very real security threats the department has to combat. And he, Alejandro Mayorkas, is preparing now to hand over his brief to the
incoming Trump administration.
So, Secretary Mayorkas, thank you for joining us from Washington, D.C. Look, I do have to start by asking you about one of the major threats that
your department identifies, and that is this kind of weather event plus climate events and all that goes with it. What -- first off, what is the
department doing to help in in this current, you know, emergency?
ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Christiane, thanks so much for having me. Our hearts break for the victims of these fires that
rage on in three different parts of Los Angeles County, my hometown.
We have seen an increase in not only the gravity of extreme weather events, but also their frequency. We have seen that over the past four years, if
not longer. We are in direct contact with the governor of California, Governor Newsom. I spoke yesterday with the mayor of Los Angeles --
actually, this morning.
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We already have been providing resources in the fight against these raging wildfires. We have already committed to reimburse for certain firefighting
costs and our partnership with the firefighting community as well as the leadership of the state and the general public will continue.
AMANPOUR: And can you tell us what the prognostication is? I mean, right now we're calling them out of control. Do the firefighters have a chance to
get them under control?
MAYORKAS: These firefighters are extraordinarily expert in what they do, and they're also quite heroic every single day. They will get these fires
under control, but right now, the situation is quite dire.
As the reporter just communicated to the viewers, the winds are extraordinarily strong. In addition, the air quality has been an obstacle
to overcome in terms of over fire flights and the delivery of water to suppress the fire. So, it's a very challenging time right now. They will
wrestle these fires to the ground. The key is to do so while minimizing destruction and casualties.
AMANPOUR: And in some of the more upscale neighborhoods where this is happening, like the Pacific Palisades, we hear really, I mean, shocking
anecdotal evidence and reporting of a huge amount of destruction of whole areas there.
But in terms of a national security threat or threat to the homeland, which is your brief, what does -- where does extreme weather, migration, or
displacement caused by it register with the department?
MAYORKAS: Well, we have seen internationally in our hemisphere and across the Atlantic the increased severity and frequency of extreme weather events
have driven people from their homes. It is one of a series of contributing challenges that finds our world with the highest level of human
displacement since World War II. There are over 80 million people displaced in the world today.
AMANPOUR: That's going to make the major issue that seems to be animating voters over much of the democratic world, including in the United States,
the issue of migration, even more difficult, right?
MAYORKAS: I think the movement of people, the migration of people is going to continue to be a challenge on a global scale. I will say, right now we
are delivering to the incoming administration here in the United States of the lowest number of individuals encountered at our southern border since
2019. The numbers are lower than the average in that pre-pandemic year, and that is because of the decisive action that President Biden took in June of
2024 after congressional inaction and the work we have done with international partners to address migration, a challenge that is not unique
to the United States.
And in the -- and the lawful, safe, and orderly pathways that we have built over the past four years to provide humanitarian relief to people who
qualify under our laws. The key is to be strong on enforcement while staying true to our values as a nation.
AMANPOUR: So, you've got a lot there that I want to pick apart in a moment and ask you about. But first and foremost, in terms of the numbers, you say
that you are delivering a border situation where there are less apprehensions, less migrants coming in than there were when you took over.
But in the meantime, in the middle of that, it took you until 2024 to achieve that. The numbers went up very, very strongly.
And you talk about, you know, congressional blockage, but you know, President Biden did it eventually with or without Congress. Why did it take
so long?
MARTIN: Well, remember where we were when we assumed office, we were in the midst of a pandemic fighting to overcome it, which we did more speedily
and effectively than any country in our hemisphere. But we were imposing Title 42 of the United States Code, the Public Health Authority that the
Health and Human Services Department controls and that President Trump imposed. We continued that through May of 2023 under bipartisan support to
do so. And then, once we lifted Title 42, we turned quickly to Congress for supplemental funding.
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Our immigration system, everyone agrees, is fundamentally broken. It is also perennially under resourced. So, we turned to Congress for assistance.
We were denied. We went back to Congress and again asked for supplemental for personnel, enforcement personnel, investigative officers and agents,
immigration judges, asylum officers, additional facilities, transportation assets, we were again denied.
We moved quickly into bipartisan Senate negotiations for a fundamental reform that hasn't been accomplished since 1996. We actually negotiated
what would have been a transformative piece of legislation only to have it politically killed. President then took executive action and the results
have been dramatic.
AMANPOUR: So, it was politically killed. We remember earlier -- well, last year by then-Candidate Trump, basically telling his Republican allies in
Congress that he wanted to run on this issue. And as we know, he used a lot of false figures and false statistics to talk about that border. And also,
you -- and about the migration figures.
But you just said, we insisted on doing whatever we did lawfully. And I'm wondering whether you are concerned about the potential problems, if you
think there will be, with President Trump's promise to do mass deportations practically from day one. Do you think it's going to be possible and will
it succeed or backfire?
MAYORKAS: Christiane, I don't quite yet know what mass deportation means in reality. I understand the rhetoric very well and what it is causing
domestically, but I do not understand -- do not really know how it will materialize. We will need to see what it actually means in real-life and
whether it does transgress legal authority. It most certainly will be challenged in the courts.
I must say every action in the realm of immigration is challenged in the courts. It's an incredibly divisive issue. I do hope together and passes
fundamental reform to a system that has been broken for decades, not just with respect to the migration of people in terms of humanitarian relief,
but also to achieve the desired outcome of family reunification, as well as economic prosperity.
We do (INAUDIBLE) the immigration system effectively to advance our economic agenda and leadership in the world.
AMANPOUR: As you know, one of the most horrifying, frankly, aspects of the first Trump administration's immigration policy called Zero Tolerance,
separated families and children. And there are still at least a thousand, maybe more children languishing in the United States who don't even know
where their parents are, and nobody can match the children with the parents who've probably been deported.
I want to play a tweet, because at the time, your predecessor, which was Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen tweeted that, we do not have a policy of
separating families at the border, period. Now, this was factually incorrect. This was a willful and knowing falsification of what actually
was going on at that time.
You said that you've been talking to your successor, Governor Kristi Noem, how do you think she's going to handle this, and do you believe that
separations will continue, or sorry -- be reorganized?
MAYORKAS: I certainly hope that family separation is not deployed as a tool to deter migration. The American public found it to be cruel and
unacceptable, and as a result that practice was stopped. When we took office, the president formed a Family Reunification Task Force, which I
chaired and which successfully reunited more than 800 families. But there are those, as you correctly noted, Christiane, who continue to suffer? It
is certainly my hope that that cruel policy does not find its way back to government operations.
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AMANPOUR: But the president-elect, and soon to be President Trump, has indicated that there probably wouldn't need to be separations because
they'll just deport whole families. Now, that probably means American citizens will be among those families, I guess people who were born in the
U.S. or whatever.
How do you think the American people are going to react to that? And I must say that the latest poll shows even Democratic voters, when they're asked,
moving much more towards the right on immigration. They're moving much further towards this -- you know, towards the right-wing on this issue.
MAYORKAS: I think we're going to have to see exactly what transpires. When they speak of deporting an entire family, I think what they are speaking of
is if, for example, the parents are undocumented, but while here resident in the United States, they had U.S. citizen children, the family will need
to make a difficult decision of whether the parents will be deported alone and the children remain here in the United States, or whether the family
will elect to stay united and leave the United States together. I think that's a very difficult choice to put to people. And it's -- it can affect
a great deal of suffering.
But if in fact the policies are consistent with the rhetoric and the practices follow the policies, we will see how the electorate responds
because words are very different than seeing those words materialize in human suffering.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you now about another aspect of Homeland Security, and that is terrorism, obviously. When that attack happened in New Orleans
on New Year's Day a certain segment of the population and leaders and nominees for security positions basically said this was, you know, the
result of, you know, untrammeled migration, people had come through the through the border, et cetera. It turns out that it wasn't.
But here is what Mike Waltz, who is Donald Trump's pick for national security adviser, told Fox the day after. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE WALTZ, U.S. HOUSE REPUBLICAN: Guys, I can't emphasize enough, close the border. Secure our sovereignty you know, and that is completely
unacceptable. The entire world knows that we have an open border, they intend to hit us, and they are pushing people into our interior to do just
that. And they know that if we're looking internally at ourselves, we can't be defending ourselves abroad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, it wasn't, right? I mean, you tell me, just remind the viewers who that perpetrator was and how does this this immediate
politicization, weaponization of the border affect actual national security?
MAYORKAS: Christiane, the terrorist who perpetrated the horrific attacks on New Year's Eve was a U.S. born citizen who served in our military. The
issue of the border is not related to this individual's attack on innocent people. Fourteen innocent people lost their lives. Others were injured,
including two law enforcement officers.
We have to get to a place -- and we have to get to a place where we come together as a country in times of tragedy and in times of need and not
politicize issues that should unite us. And we have to be united in the fight against terrorism, including when an individual born in the United
States is radicalized to violence by a foreign terrorist ideology, as appears to be the case in the New Orleans tragedy.
AMANPOUR: And finally, Secretary Mayorkas, you know, administrations, outgoing, tell the incoming what the big challenges are, what they think
they should look out for, apart from what we've discussed, what other issues on the horizon are you advising the incoming administration to look
out for? Any kind of interference or bad practice and harm to the United States from overseas?
[13:20:00]
MAYORKAS: Most certainly, Christiane. I described the heightened threat landscape as consisting of three primary threat vectors, one, the threat of
foreign terrorism, which persists and that led to the creation of our Department of Homeland Security.
Second is the increased threat of domestic violent extremism. The individual already resident in the United States radicalized to violence by
either a foreign terrorist ideology -- ideologies of hate, antigovernment sentiment, false narratives personal grievances and the like.
And the third is the threat of adverse nation states, the People's Republic of China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, and the activities that they have
launched against the United States. We see that in the cyber realm most acutely now.
AMANPOUR: And I want to ask you also about national security in terms of what President Trump has just been saying and is causing a huge amount of
ruction around the world. And that is annex Greenland. Reclaim the Panama Canal. Tell Canada that it's going to be the 51st state. All Trump says
based on a national security and economic imperative.
To your mind, A, is that legitimate? Doesn't that put U.S. in the same boat as Putin, for instance, who annexes territory and invades willy-nilly with
his military, but is it a national security imperative, do you think?
MAYORKAS: Well, Christiane, you know, I read the newspapers and watch the news and I've heard over the past day individuals reportedly close to the
inner circle of the incoming administration that this is a talk that is a negotiating tactic. Let's see what materializes and we will assess what
materializes in the context of American interests in the world.
President Biden has built tremendous alliances around the world, and they have materialized in defense of Ukraine against the invasion of Russia. And
so, hopefully, those alliances will continue to strengthen and increase America's prominence as a world leader.
AMANPOUR: Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas, thank you for joining us.
MAYORKAS: Thanks for having me, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. And next we move to Afghanistan, where the Taliban's crackdown on women's rights is worsening by the day. The latest is closing
all NGOs that employ women, banning the construction of windows that women might be seen through as the country enters yet another year of Taliban
rule.
It is hard to forget the chilling images of thousands attempting to flee back in 2021 when the U.S. pulled out. But now a documentary is giving us a
glimpse into the months that followed. The Egyptian filmmaker Ibrahim Nash'at was granted limited access to the Taliban's inner circle for a
whole year. The result is "Hollywoodgate," which is named after the abandoned CIA base that the film captures. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): That little devil is filming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We have not harmed you yet, but beware.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) camera. I came to see in whose hands this country was left.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Stop filming now, all of you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Me, I show what I saw.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: After becoming a festival hit, the film has now made the Oscar shortlist for Best Documentary Feature. And Nash'at recently came into the
studio to talk about his year with the Taliban.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Ibrahim Nash'at, welcome to the program.
IBRAHIM NASH'AT, DIRECTOR, "HOLLYWOODGATE": Thanks for having me.
AMANPOUR: So, just let's go back to the beginning. While the U.S. was pulling out, you decided to pull in, so to speak. What made you want to do
that?
NASH'AT: I think seeing the footage of the airport of that year when everybody was running to the airport and seeing the fear in the eyes of the
people has evoked something in me. And then, when I saw the image of those who clinched to the airplane and fell and lost their life just trying to
run away from the situation, I couldn't resist and there was something inside me telling me you should go.
AMANPOUR: I think what's extraordinary is that those pictures, which actually shocked the world, also was your, you know, lit a fire under you
to go there. How did you convince the Taliban? I guess you wanted to see who exactly was inspiring all that fear in people.
NASH'AT: I wanted to show the world in whose hands this country was left. I wanted to show the world that Afghanistan that was the place that was
claimed to be a place to build for 20 years is left behind now. An Afghan woman that we were told that we should be caring about them for so many
years are now left behind and the Taliban are the ones that are going to control them.
[13:25:00]
And while Taliban -- we're saying we're Taliban 2.0, we're going to let women be free and all of that, me coming from the region understanding
what's going on, I knew that these all were lies to try to play politics, but the truth behind it is what's happening today in Afghanistan.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, what I want to do is play a clip, and the clip we're going to show has one of the commanders who you've been granted access to,
essentially saying that he told his wife to give up her career as a doctor, otherwise he wouldn't marry her. Here's the clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The commander has a doctor at home. He is a lucky man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I married a doctor. She is very talented, but I gave her a condition. I will only marry you if you stop
practicing medicine. So, she stopped once we got engaged. I didn't allow it anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: When you were filming that, how did you feel?
NASH'AT: You know, you feel a lot of suppression for women in Afghanistan. You feel a lot of suppression for normal people in Afghanistan. Taliban
claim to be the ones who are taking care of the people and applying religion, yet people who believe in the same religion and believe in the
same freedom of women are not facing anything except oppression.
And today, the world does not really pay attention to Afghanistan. So, it definitely reveals a lot of -- it evokes a lot of emotions in me. It evokes
sadness, it evokes anger, it evokes a lot of emotions that I think all Afghans have, and this is the purpose of the movie, is to show the pain and
the suffering of the Afghans under the ruling of the Taliban and the betrayal they had from the west from they left our country.
AMANPOUR: And the lies of the Taliban, because in the years since you've been there, the edicts have just got harsher and harsher and harsher. We
saw the masks that they had to wear, then they weren't allowed to speak in public, then they couldn't go to the parks, then they couldn't travel
without a male escort and kids of secondary school can't go to school, girls. So, I was there while you were there towards the tail end of your
visit in May of 2022.
So, I want to play a soundbite from an interview I did. It was exclusive. The first interview ever gave with the top Taliban leader, Sirajuddin
Haqqani. Here's what he told me about women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: But many tell us that they feel that the Taliban wants them to stay at home, and they're afraid of some of the edicts that has a very
chilling effect.
SIRAJUDDIN HAQQANI, AFGHAN INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): We keep naughty women at home.
AMANPOUR: OK. You need to explain that joke, because people will think that's official policy, and maybe it is. What does that mean, naughty?
HAQQANI (through translator): What I am saying is that the international community is raising the issue of women's rights a lot. Here in
Afghanistan, there are Islamic, national, cultural, and traditional principles. Within the limit of those principles, we are working to provide
them with opportunities to work, and that is our goal.
By saying naughty women, it was a joke referring to those naughty women who are controlled by some other sides to bring the current government into
question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, that's their rationalization. In your film you didn't speak to women. Did they tell you couldn't? There are some shots where you pass
by and you can see all these poor widows in full burqa, you know, begging outside bakeries and other places. As we know, poor Afghan women have had
to do because they haven't been allowed to work throughout the Taliban rule.
NASH'AT: It's for security purposes, whoever comes in this movie side by side to the Taliban were risking their life, and we did not want to be
responsible for putting someone as close to the Taliban as this. I had this idea while we were shooting, maybe I send another cameraman to film with
the woman, but then I felt that I could be responsible for her life, and I did not want to do that.
AMANPOUR: Because I think some of the things during the film, where you just have a camera on them and they're talking, and some of them think that
you don't understand, and you don't really because you have a translator, but they're saying, who is that devil, meaning you? Who's this guy with the
camera? We shouldn't be letting him see this. We're going to kill him if he says bad stuff.
Were you being told that in real time? Did you know what they were saying about you as you were filming?
NASH'AT: Threats? No, because I asked the translator not to translate them, because when he translated once, I freaked out, and the brave guy
kept it all for himself, and when we pulled him out of Afghanistan and brought him to Berlin, I asked him, why didn't you translate that? Because
I didn't remember telling him this. And he told me, you told me not to translate.
AMANPOUR: And lucky, right? Because you might not have kept filming.
[13:30:00]
NASH'AT: But he kept it all on his shoulders. And that's what you get from Afghans. When they trust you, they give you their lives. They put
themselves in the front line for the U.S. and the NATO when they were there believing that they're going to actually help them and they just suddenly
left them all behind. And today, nobody cares about Afghanistan anymore.
AMANPOUR: So, you're deeply conflicted, right? I mean, here you are speaking for these Afghans, who, as you say, gave everything for their
country and for the forces they presumed were going to be the permanent liberation forces.
So, this is called "Hollywoodgate," and it's basically about the name of a particular American base that you got to see through these people who you
were following. And we're going to play a little clip and then talk about what you found.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We should plant some trees here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We go this way. This whole area was for surveillance. But they destroyed its control center.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They had such advanced radars, no?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Could our engineers reconnect them?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, they could work again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They container of weapons is over there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Don't show it to the filmmaker.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, right there, they're saying don't show it to the filmmaker. How much of that weaponry were you able to film? And were you surprised
with -- did they seem surprised? What did they say?
NASH'AT: I think what I learned through the process of filming this film that I was mistaken about the Taliban, considering that they are simple,
that means they are ignorant. And when I saw them, for example, not being able to calculate 67 times 100, I was like, this idea was confirmed in my
head. But what happened through the years was completely different because they were able to fix a lot of the weapons that were left behind.
And that made me question my point of view of me judging the other, and deciding that if someone is not sophisticated like, in the way that I
decide, then he's doomed to be ignorant. And I ignored the fact that there is different kind of intelligence. And for us, to find a way to build a
better world, we've got to understand what happens on the other side.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's also interesting because some of the -- you know, the write ups about the film talk about these moments that show Taliban
buffoonery. In other words, this commander literally didn't know how to multiply 67 by 100 and couldn't do mental arithmetic, but you're saying,
and yet, they could fix very sophisticated weapon systems that they then started to use.
But there is quite a lot that's, comes across as simple and childlike about the Taliban. They haven't seen a lot of stuff that the modern world has
seen. I mean, even when they were on the treadmill or whatever. Tell me what was going through your mind when -- I mean, I can see you smiling.
NASH'AT: It's just -- this is the -- this is dark comedy. You know, one of the best comments I've seen that says this episode, this -- on the movie
one is the best feedbacks that I've seen on the film was saying that this movie is the -- is one of the scariest episodes of the office. Because
there is some dark humor, but this dark humor behind it is real-life, you know?
AMANPOUR: You talk about the burden. You said you went out occasionally to get, you know, mental healthcare, so to speak. Tell me about that.
NASH'AT: I think without the mental health support, I was -- I would not have been able to finish this journey. I would have not have been able to
sit with you here today.
AMANPOUR: What were the things that made you feel, you know, worried about your mental health?
NASH'AT: I had to live with the Taliban for seven months over the course one year, day and night, sleep in the same room. In one room would be 16,
17 Talibans thrown on the floor and I'm one -- I'm the only one who's not a Taliban between them with my translator, if they allowed him to sleep over.
There were some threats and I understood that. You know, the idea of revenge is pretty much common. And if someone decided this guy betrayed me,
then he wants to come after me. There is definitely fear --
AMANPOUR: So, you're constantly in this state of, you know, nervous anxiety about your life, frankly.
NASH'AT: I accept the risk that I took and I decided to live the rest of my life with it. And I know that it comes with fear and I need to deal with
that fear.
AMANPOUR: How do you feel now?
NASH'AT: I feel that I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I'm standing behind the message of the film that I wanted to do which is --
AMANPOUR: And the message is what, again?
NASH'AT: The message is that war begets war, begets war and you should never kill an ideology with a weapon. We tried for 20 years to kill the
ideology with a weapon, you just made it stronger. And Taliban did not only inherit from the U.S. the weapons that were left behind, they only
inherited all these propaganda tools that they are using on Afghans nowadays, forcing many Afghans to either follow them or just stay shut.
[13:35:00]
And Taliban have this mentality of expanding. They are not what they say we're a Taliban that wants only Afghanistan. They have intentions to expand
just when they -- when it's allowed. And if we don't deal with the situation of Afghanistan today with care and finding a different way than
conducting a war, then we're just repeating history.
AMANPOUR: Devil's advocate question.
NASH'AT: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Despite all that we've just said about them, and what you've seen and I've seen and others have seen there, there is no war at the
moment. Even at the time of the U.S., there was war still. Yes, we were freer. Yes, women had the rights. But there was war. What do you say about
that?
NASH'AT: I say that Afghans are tired of war. We have seen 42 years of war, three years of the ruling of the Taliban. At least when someone goes
out of his house, he knows he's not going to be bombed. So, that's the positive side of it, knowing that you're safe and you're not going to be
bombed. But how long that's going to last for, we don't know.
I think we have to pay attention to Afghanistan, put it on top of our list of needs, and that's what we do in our impact campaign. I'm going to talk
to the European Parliament, going to talk to hopefully soon to the Congress and going to talk to decision makers and politicians and policymakers to
tell them that your work towards Afghanistan is not a charity, it's actually an obligation, a moral obligation for the years you spend there
and an obligation for your own security that you need to avoid any consequence of just letting Afghanistan be where it is today.
AMANPOUR: Ibrahim Nash'at, thank you so much indeed. Director, "Hollywoodgate."
NASH'AT: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And it is a fascinating fly on the wall look at the reclusive Taliban. Now, being a small business owner in the post-pandemic era is not
easy, but it's even more challenging if you are also living with a disability. And that's the story of sommelier Yannick Benjamin, who at the
end of 2024 poured wine for the last time at his celebrated New York restaurant, Contento.
Benjamin highlights in an opinion piece for The New York Times how inflation and unaffordable private health insurance were largely to blame
for the restaurant closure. And he speaks to Michel Martin about the many hospitality workers across the U.S. facing a similar plight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Yannick Benjamin, thank you so much for speaking with us.
YANNICK BENJAMIN, FOUNDER, WINE ON WHEELS AND SOMMELIER: Thank you for having me.
MARTIN: Well, tell me about the restaurant, Contento. I've just heard -- for people who perhaps don't follow these things, it's a restaurant. It was
in East Harlem. It was twice named one of New York City's 100 best restaurants by The New York Times. And that is certainly saying something
because I think, as everyone knows, New York is one of the world's great cities and restaurants are a big part of the cultural life there. You
earned a Michelin Guide Somalia Award. That's quite an achievement.
So, tell me about Contento. What did you have in mind when you opened it?
BENJAMIN: Well, just to give a little background, I've been doing this since I was 13 years old. My entire family, they're all French immigrants.
They came here for a better life and they all worked in hospitality. They all worked in restaurants. And of course, I decided to follow in their
footsteps. I mean, they weren't too excited about that because, you know, like every immigrant's dream, they want their kids to be in an office with
air conditioning and all that fun stuff. And so, I pursued that path. Of course, they were very supportive.
Unfortunately, at the age of 25 years old, I was in a car accident that left me paralyzed from the waist down. So, obviously trying to transition
from a non-disabled person working in hospitality to a person now using a wheelchair full-time in an industry where there's steps, there's, you know,
hot oil, fire, sharp knives, space is really tight was going to be very challenging and there were going to be a lot of obstacles, but I decided to
stay on that path because I was so passionate about this industry and I'm still passionate.
And so, I continue to pursue it. And so, finally, when I had this opportunity, and I found this location in East Harlem on 88 East 2011
Street to open up this small little restaurant and we can make it accessible, you know, not just for the public, but for people like myself
to work there, it was really an exciting venture.
And so, for me, what Contento represented was the persistence of continuing on. No matter what obstacles you face, the resiliency, right, and also a
place that was inclusive for other people with disabilities, that they can come in there and be treated with the dignity and respect that they
deserve.
MARTIN: So, you had -- it wasn't just about the deliciousness of the offerings, but also about the story.
BENJAMIN: 100 percent, it was about the story. You know, and I think that's what food is about and I think that's what wine is all about. And
that's what we were trying to convey as a team at Contendo.
[13:40:00]
MARTIN: So, how did things start to go wrong? I mean, I'm assuming that the COVID pandemic, you know, had something to do with it.
BENJAMIN: For sure. And then, of course, we were ready to open and we had made the announcement we were going to open sometime in the spring of 2020.
Sure enough, New York City was shut down mid-March.
And so, here we were, we had this restaurant that was pretty much complete and ready to go. And so, we just held off, held off, held off because we
knew that if we would open, eventually we might be shut down again, and that would be the nail to the coffin.
And so, we didn't open our doors until June 10, 2021. So, throughout that whole time, we still had to pay rent. We still had to pay insurance. There
were still some bills that had to be paid, even though we were not officially open. So, that was already the first obstacle that we were
facing, right?
And then, all these rules and regulations, because we were still in the midst of the pandemic, were constantly changing. So, it was definitely very
challenging. And trying to get people to come to work at the restaurants was also very complicated.
MARTIN: But you did it.
BENJAMIN: We did.
MARTIN: And then, you were a hit.
BENJAMIN: We were hit, yes. And we were -- it was quite incredible. I never would have imagined that we would have got all the press that we
received. It was just unbelievable. I was so grateful for it.
MARTIN: Well, I think here's where it gets kind of sort of tricky, is that you -- in your piece for The New York Times, you point to a number of
factors that led to your having to close the restaurant. One was inflation. But the other thing that you highlight in your piece is health insurance.
BENJAMIN: Yes.
MARTIN: Is how many people who work in hospitality actually have to work a second job in order to get the health insurance that allows them to work in
hospitality. So, would you talk a little bit about that and why that's such a big issue?
BENJAMIN: Well, how it really impacted me personally, you know, for the first two years of the opening of Contento, I was there quite a bit. But
eventually, I had to make the decision that I needed a job to provide me with adequate healthcare.
Now, keep in mind, I'm a person living with spinal cord injury, right? So, it's not just the fact that I'm not walking, but I need to pay for
wheelchair equipment. I need to pay for durable medical equipment. There's certain prescription drugs that I need. That's really important.
So, I -- you know, I think that when I took on that full-time job so I can get adequate and respectable healthcare, it took away from my attention of
Contento, right? And I do think that contributed to the -- not -- to the slowdown of people going there because a lot of people were going to
Contento restaurant to come see me.
Well, I was no longer really there. I was heavily involved with the restaurant behind the scenes, but, you know, without -- I'm going to try to
say this in the most humble way, I certainly was the face of the restaurant in many ways, but if I'm not there, it kind of defeats the purpose of
people wanting to come visit us, right? But I had no choice that I needed healthcare.
Now, I do believe that if there was some kind of universal healthcare plan, I would still be there. I would do -- I would be able to give 100 percent
and be able to contribute, and maybe we would still be open. I'm not saying for sure, but I definitely believe it would have increased our chances.
So, the healthcare system that's provided for hospitality workers and that safety net is really broken. And I'm a perfect example of that.
MARTIN: In your piece, you pointed out that only 40 percent of full-time hospitality workers have health insurance compared to 87 percent in the
private sector. What does that look like? In a restaurant like Contento, what did that look like? So, were most of the people working other jobs in
order to get health insurance or is it that people outside of that 40 percent includes people who work at the big chains like an Applebee's or
Starbucks?
BENJAMIN: I would probably venture to say that the people that are receiving healthcare in hospitality establishments are probably working for
bigger companies or restaurants that have a substantial or immense amount of financial backing behind them.
As far as Contento goes, most people that worked there had second jobs that provided them those resources. We as a restaurant were not able to do so.
MARTIN: That must have been hard. Here you are as a person who understood on a very personal level the importance of access to healthcare on a
consistent basis. I'm just thinking that must have been hard for you.
BENJAMIN: I'll be very honest with you, it's the one thing that I'm not going to miss about Contento because it was the one thing that I struggled
with on an everyday basis. As someone who really believes in healthcare, that I myself, as someone who was part of Contento that I was not able to
provide adequate and respectable healthcare to these individuals that were just unbelievable, greatest human beings, and not being able to provide
that was something that was hard for me to like, put my head to sleep and I struggled with that.
[13:45:00]
And the reality of it is that most people are going without it. Even with the Affordable Care Act, it's quite an expense to pay into it. The
deductibles can be quite high. The copayments can be quite high. It's not exactly the solution to the problem. It's a good step in the right
direction.
But listen, I don't know why healthcare is so taboo in this country. I think that if we had adequate healthcare for all people, you would see
anxieties reduce. And I also believe that you would see more of an entrepreneurial spirit.
I often think that people are more conservative with the decisions that they make because there's not that safety net to be able to do so. Yes. And
so, having to have healthcare I think should be a priority for all of us. And I just find it shocking that in this last election, no one really
brought it up. It was not a topic of conversation.
I mean, we have 62 million Americans that identifies having a disability, right? And I'm sure the number is even higher. That's quite big. That means
one in four Americans. And so, why are we just kind of constantly sweeping this under the rug?
MARTIN: One of the things that you say is in this business, people might gravitate towards a big, you know, corporate enterprise, no shade here, but
like a Starbucks.
BENJAMIN: Yes.
MARTIN: Because they offer benefits, but that this person might be talented in another area of hospitality, who might have an opportunity to
open a neighborhood restaurant or an eatery or some other aspect of the business, but they can't because they can't afford to go without health
insurance. Have you seen that? Have you seen people sort of forgoing sort of more creative opportunities because they had to take a job with
benefits?
BENJAMIN: I see it all the time. I mean, I see it all the time. I see people that have very close relationships with their primary physician,
with their gynecologist, with their urologist, right? And then, they get offered a job that's this great opportunity, right? And then, they do their
research about the insurance that they might be offered, but their primary physician, their gynecologist or urologist, whatever it is, is now no
longer a network because they're being offered a different private health plan. And so, just that in itself is a problem. Yes.
And so, people, again, are making decisions that are limited, that are limiting their potential. And this is all -- a lot of it has to do with
healthcare. I think that we're missing out on so much talents out here. And it's not just about people in hospitality, it's not just about people that
are cooks or waiters or sommeliers or bartenders, but I'm talking about people that are freelance writers, I'm talking about people that are
singers and dancers and artists.
I mean, I grew up in New York. I grew up in hell's kitchen in the '80s and it was a hotbed for people to come into that neighborhood, right. They can
afford rent, they can pursue their craft, get a job part-time, and they had enough money to pay and provide for themselves to really pursue that craft
and their passion. And we've completely lost that. And it's a real pity.
And I really do believe that we can get back to that point. But we've allowed greed and ignorance to consume us.
MARTIN: So, here's where I have to ask a hard question. There are those who might say, that's a shame, but eating out in nice restaurants is not a
priority for the country. So, what would you say to that?
BENJAMIN: Well, I would say that I would respect that and I can understand where that's coming from. You know, we are honestly an amenity in many
ways, right? I'm not here to say that we need to have three Michelin stars and we're going to make the world a better place without a doubt. I fully
understand that aspect. But are we going to say that we don't need Broadway shows?
I think all of these aspects, they bring joy to our lives, right? So, why eliminate them? I think they make the world a better place. Do I think they
are a priority? I don't know. But here's what I will say to this, that we know that the restaurant industry is one of the few industries that gives
people a second chance, right?
People that are convicted criminals, who are reformed will come out and who are looking for a second chance, restaurant business generally gives that
to them. Yes. People that are undocumented, that are desperately trying to feed their families, usually that's a place where they can provide that.
Now, whether you agree with that or not, it's a place of second chances. And that's the beauty of the restaurant business.
[13:50:00]
MARTIN: One of the things you talked about in your piece is the idea of -- well, I think many people will remember that. During the pandemic, there
were a number of subsidies offered to businesses to help keep them afloat, right? One of your ideas is that the restaurant industry could have
subsidies similar to the CARES Act funding for airlines when they were in so much trouble after the 9/11 attacks. What would that look like and how
would that work?
BENJAMIN: That's a great question and it's a complicated one. But just to kind of simplify my answer to you, I think, you know, what if we just all
got together. You know, all the big chain restaurants, right, and created one big unified association, right?
So, when someone does get severely injured, right, that there's something waiting for them and we can support them, and then having one big umbrella
where we all have the same in network health insurance, you know, just something where we're all supporting each other.
In my article, I mentioned Starbucks, Applebee's, all these big, they're important. They have value to themselves, right? And I think that these
bigger companies can really have a big positive impact if we can incorporate some of these small mom and pop restaurants. And I think that
one hand helps the other at the end of the day and I think vice versa. And so, I think that just trying to create a one solid association is really
the best way forward.
MARTIN: So, if you don't mind my asking, what was that last day like?
BENJAMIN: I think it wasn't so much the last day. I mean, I think it was more, you know, coming to the realization and having to say, I'm -- we've
got to close. This is just not going to happen. I think the hardest part of having to make this decision was that there were people who really believed
in me, who supported me, who became investors and their friends, and having to reach out to them and say, I'm sorry, but, you know, we tried our best,
but we have to close the restaurants.
And then, having to make that announcement via social media. And then seeing people face to face. And no one does it on purpose, but they -- you
know, they -- I'm really sorry. I -- you know, that's sort of, I feel sorry for you kind of look.
MARTIN: Yes.
BENJAMIN: And you know, that's hard. I mean, there's a lot of -- you know, it's kind of humbling to go through that experience, but it is what it is.
And I tell people that, please don't feel sorry for me. I was really given a gift. I felt the emotion of what it was like to have a great restaurant.
I feel like we had a great impact. I think we showed the world that people with disabilities can be part of the hospitality industry, but we also show
that if you build something special and inclusive, that people with disabilities will come to your establishment.
I mean, listen, the population -- the 62 million Americans, they have over a billion dollars of spending power, you know, let's not forget that,
right? So, I think, in many ways, we did put that as an important topic and I hope that other hospitality establishments will continue that
conversation.
MARTIN: So, what's next for you?
BENJAMIN: Oh, that's a great question. I have two beautiful dogs. I want to play with them more. I want to have more moments of stillness with my
wife. I want to do a lot more writing. I'm currently writing a book with a good friend of mine, Emily Saladino, and to talk about my experiences of
hospitality and what it's like to be a person with a disability and navigating hospitality. And that's it.
I mean, really, I just -- you know, I have a great job right now. I've been part of the same place for well over 12 years on and off, and I love it.
I mean, listen, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm so grateful. And even when I reached out to all my investors to let them know that I was closing
the restaurant, everybody like was so kind. I mean, even me talking to you about this, I'm so emotional. I mean, I got -- I am the luckiest human
being on Earth despite all of this. And I can be in much worse situations. I realized that I had tons of privilege, but I'm grateful for every moment.
So, I'm going to tell you right now more moments of stillness.
MARTIN: Yannick Benjamin, thank you so much for talking with us.
BENJAMIN: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Finding the joy. And finally, tonight, the joy of dance. These salsa dancers kicked off the second edition of Ballet Beyond Borders in
Havana, Cuba. The U.S. and Cuba maintain a strained relationship. So, this five-day festival hosted by American and Cuban dance companies aims to
promote cultural exchange through events and masterclasses like this one.
[13:55:00]
Here you can see dancers of all ages learning the routine to Michael Jackson's "Thriller," taught by the renowned American choreographer Vincent
Paterson. He had worked with the king of pop himself. Paterson believes that dance is a universal language and can build bridges across divides.
Which is -- as we usher in a highly divisive new year.
That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
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