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Amanpour
Interview with University of Michigan Professor of Economics Betsey Stevenson; Interview with University of Michigan Professor of Economics Justin Wolfers; Interview with State Senator Nate Blouin (D-UT); Interview with Turkish Journalist and "How to Lose a Country" Author Ece Temelkuran; Interview with The New York Times Reporter Steven Kurutz. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired April 07, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Global markets meltdown as President Trump defends his tariffs. We unpack the ramifications for ordinary Americans with former economic adviser to
President Obama, Betsey Stevenson, and Professor of Economics at the University of Michigan, Justin Wolfers.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: This is what democracy looks like.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- America starts to resist. Mass protests against Trump's policies take place across the country.
Plus, Turkey's opposition vows to sustain mass demonstrations after President Erdogan jails his main political rival. I'll discuss with Turkish
journalists Ece Temelkuran.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN KURUTZ, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: You were compensated in other ways by getting to be artistic and creative and going to interesting
parties and feeling like you were part of the culture. And so, that part has gone away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Is it the end of work as we know it? Michel Martin discusses the future of work with New York Times reporter Steven Kurutz on his latest
piece, "The Gen X Career Meltdown."
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Tariff turmoil grows as markets tumble across the world again after President Trump said that he won't back down from his aggressive trade
policies. Markets opened in bear market territory Monday. That is a 20 percent decline from a recent peak.
Now, this followed a historic route in Asia and massive losses in Europe. The head of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, said the E.U. is
ready to negotiate with the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
URSULA VON DER LEYEN, EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT: We stand ready to negotiate with the United States. Indeed, we have offered zero for zero
tariffs for industrial goods, as we have successfully done with many other trading partners. Because Europe is always ready for good deal, so we keep
it on the table. But we are also prepared to respond through countermeasures and defend our interests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: To be clear, this is the stock market's worst start to a presidential term in modern history. Unlike previous economic crises, the
pain here is entirely self-inflicted. The economy Trump inherited was in a very good place. Despite having an inflation problem, the economy avoided a
recession and carried out what economists called a soft landing.
Well, J.P. Morgan now says a recession is likely to happen this year and tariffs will make prices climb by up to 2 percent. Trump's trade adviser
Peter Navarro pushed back on recession fears.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, SENIOR COUNSELOR FOR TRADE AND MANUFACTURING: The biggest tax cut in American history, the broadest base tax cut in American history
is coming within a matter of months. So, any discussion of recession seems silly when you factor that in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, what does this mean for average workers and consumers? Betsey Stevenson is a former economic adviser to President Obama and a
professor of economics at the University of Michigan. Justin Wolfers is also a professor of economics at the University of Michigan, and they both
join me now live. It's good to have two life partners on the show here talking about the same subject. Betsey Johnson and Justin, welcome to the
program.
OK. So, Betsey, let's start with you, because we see the markets once again in turmoil around the world, blinking red lights about recession fears if
not worse in the months and weeks to come if these tariffs are actually implemented, which these reciprocal tariffs are set to go into effect just
two days from now. But the president seems unfazed. He played golf over the weekends, is telling Republicans, it appears, over Twitter not to panic at
this point. And he says, sometimes you have to take medicine to fix something.
I guess my question to you is, Betsey, is there any indication that you've heard from either the president or from his advisers as to what exactly
needs to be fixed?
BETSEY STEVENSON, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Whoa. There's a lot there. No, I don't think that there is a clear plan. He seems
to have a view that anytime we're buying something from somebody else, you know, we're giving up money, which is bad. And so, we just shouldn't buy
things. That seems to be his logic.
[13:05:00]
There is some underlying sense that America needs to rebuild manufacturing. We can definitely dig into that and talk about that. But across the board
tariffs, not about rebuilding manufacturing. You know, we put a tariff on vanilla from Madagascar. We're not going to start growing vanilla anytime
in the United States. And frankly, we're not even really going to start making Nikes again in the U.S. or doing a lot of our garment production in
the United States.
What is really going to happen is we're going to pay more for stuff. Because we're going to pay more for stuff, we're going to buy less stuff,
and that's why markets are melting down. They're seeing the net present value of sales through the next many, many years, not just the next few
months, not just a small disruption, but coming down due to these policies.
GOLODRYGA: And, Justin, given these policies, if they are in fact implemented, you have a piece out over the weekend that says your life will
never be the same after these tariffs. And you note the tariffs are costly, not just because they raise prices, but because they force you to make
different decisions in terms of extracting a different kind of cost from you as well. Can you walk us through a real-life example?
JUSTIN WOLFERS, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Yes. So, for your viewers, next time you're at the grocery store, what I want you to
do is, as you go down the aisle, just pick up a few items. And normally, you'd look at the price tag, but this time I want you to take a look at
where it was made. You'll discover a whole heck of a lot of your family budget is spent on stuff that comes from abroad, and even the stuff that's
made in America, it turns out to be made in America are often based on raw materials from abroad. So, start factoring in a 20 percent price hike on
all of that stuff.
And then, it gets harder than that again, which is, there are things like, say there's going to be higher washing machine prices. One way to avoid
paying those higher prices is you keep the old washing machine around. Well, in this case, you don't pay the tariff in money, you pay it instead
on rust stains on your old shirts, you pay it when the machine becomes unbalanced, the big thugs in the middle of the day. So, there are all sorts
of ways in which these tariffs are going to affect every corner of our lives.
GOLODRYGA: And, Betsey, it's interesting because I'm sure a lot of folks, myself included, as a journalist and I would imagine the two of you, sort
of had PTSD over the weekend after the two days that we had last week after the announcement of Liberation Day and the impact this had on the markets
and brings you back to 2008, the financial market crash and even five years ago with the pandemic.
And what's different is not only was this self-inflicted, but, Betsey, as someone who has served in an administration and worked in an
administration, there were tools in the toolbox to remedy or to try to address these crises. What are the options when the crisis is actually
self-made?
STEVENSON: Well, I have to say, you know, one thing I have been fond of saying is that the president doesn't have that much control over the
economy. And now, I have to add until now. Because what he did was -- I mean, was to really just tear apart the entire economy.
What are the tools in the toolbox? Stop doing that. I think that's the most -- the best tool he could use would be to stop, would be to have economic
advisers who are willing to explain some of the mistakes in his thinking. Because I do think -- look, not everybody was born to think about economics
every day. I totally get that. Believe me, my kids tell me all the time, not everybody wants to do economics.
That's why you surround yourself with experts, with advisers who can explain the negative implications of the choices you're making so that you
can make good choices. And I think really the only remedy here is stop making bad choices, make good choices.
GOLODRYGA: And one would imagine that Kevin Bessent, his treasury secretary, would know better. But then, you have somebody like Peter
Navarro who actually has owned this trade policy, say over the weekend, that, oh, it's not enough if these countries come back to us and eliminate
their tariffs completely, because he described that as zero tariffs is disingenuous. What they need to do is lower non-tariff barriers.
Justin, walk us through what that means and then also what incentive that gives other countries to try to negotiate at all with the president here?
WOLFERS: Yes. So, there are two types of barriers. There's tariffs, when you have to pay 10 percent to import something into your country. I want to
be clear, those tariffs are not on China. They're on Americans. When Home Depot brings goods into America, it's Home Depot that pays that tariff to
get it out of customs. And then non-tariff barriers are, you know what, all that custom stuff, it's a whole lot of paperwork and a whole lot of hassle.
[13:10:00]
So, this concern that there are a lot of trade barriers is a totally legitimate concern back in Trump's youth, the 1960s. The reality though is
that trade barriers for most of our trading partners have been incredibly low now for several decades.
What that in turn means is this is an incredibly asymmetric trade war. It's possible we'll get some gains here. For instance, Vietnam is talking about
moving its tariffs to zero. Guess what? Vietnam's average tariff rate was already 1.1 percent. So, if we win the trade war, we get 1.1 percent lower
from Vietnam. In the meantime, we've got 34 percent retaliatory tariffs on us from China. So, look, if we win, we win a tiny bit, and along the way
we're going to impose huge costs on the whole economy.
GOLODRYGA: Betsey, I guess if there's any optimism here to be had or silver lining is that this administration, as we noted and despite what
some in this administration have been saying, they inherited a rather strong and robust economy. And there's a question of whether it can cushion
or allow for a cushion for a short period of time. But at what point does the rest of the world sort of start trading without the United States and
going on sort of with a plan B of their own?
STEVENSON: You know, I think this is one of the biggest miscalculations this administration has made. The United States has grown faster than any
other country in the world for a very long time, and one of the reasons that we did it was because of the fact that we have been a nation that
welcomed immigrants. So, we were attracting the best and brightest. We built the strongest universities, and we embraced trade, and we had that
rapid growth.
What Trump wants to do is shut all of that down. So, as we're shutting all of that down, what's going to happen is a lot of those other countries are
going to get to have the kind of robust growth that we had over the last a hundred years, over the last 20 years, these other countries are going to
get, and I think we're going to find our status as a nation diminished.
GOLODRYGA: And, Justin, the Yale Budget Lab in just terms of what this will actually -- what these tariffs will cost the average household here's
what they came up with. The price level from all 2025 tariffs rises by 2.3 percent in the short run, the equivalent of an average per household
consumer loss of $3,800 in 2024 dollars. Walk us through how that's going to have a ripple effect throughout the U.S. economy, if that does, in fact
-- if these tariffs do in fact go into force?
WOLFERS: Yes. So, the important thing is this matches the White House's numbers. They claim they're going to get $600 billion from this. The only
way you do that is if the average household is paying round about an extra $4,000 a year that you have to get from your budget.
Look, it's actually worse than that, Bianna. Normally, with taxes, say an income tax, we charge higher rates to the wealthy who can afford it and
lower rates to the poor. But imports are something that we all buy. We all, for instance, eat fruit and vegetables, many of which come from Mexico. And
so, therefore, these are taxes that are really going to hit the American working and middle class harder than any other part of the economy.
So, what we're going to see is direct harm from that. My son wants to add one more thing, that Nintendo have decided that they're going to put off
the Switch 2, which he thinks is a tremendous harm worth even more than that. But also, then you've got -- look, we were thinking about buying a
car next month. We're not going to now because it just became more expensive. If a whole lot of families think that way, that's the first
thing that causes a recession. And I reckon the recession odds are pretty high right now.
STEVENSON: Bianna, let me just add, it's just simple math. If you have to come up with an extra $4,000 to pay in taxes, what are you going to cut?
GOLODRYGA: Right. Right. And the way this administration has factored this in also doesn't make sense because on the one hand they say they're willing
to negotiate this down, on the other hand, they're saying that they want to pay down the debt, and that could only happen, in theory, right, if these
tariffs are in effect for a long period of time.
Betsey, I do want to ask you about your home state. You're both in Michigan there, ground zero for the tariff impact. The Wall Street Journal has a
piece out, it's calling Michigan the first victim of Trump's trade war. I'm going to quote from one auto executive last week, darkly predicted
Chernobyl if tariffs broadly hit imported parts, which they're scheduled to do next month. Industry executives and analysts later said, what the
administration outlined Wednesday was worse than they expected. How is this going to hit a state like Michigan?
[13:15:00]
STEVENSON: You know, if you think about things like a Ford or you know, a car that is made in the United States are big American brands, there's
still buying parts from all over the globe. They need to buy parts from all over the globe, and they have absolutely optimized their production to be
as competitive as they can be around the globe.
And what the administration is doing is not actually supporting the American auto industry by putting tariffs on everything coming in. It's
actually harming the American auto industry. And that's why you're already starting to see some layoffs in America associated with the production of
automobiles. You know, I don't think that he's going to get a lot more manufacturing jobs from this. And in the short run we may even see a loss
of manufacturing jobs.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Stellantis, we should note, they pause production at a plant in Mexico. They just announced that for the entire month of April
today. Justin, now we have this continued back and forth tit for tat between Trump and China. Specifically, two of the world's largest
economies. The president now threatening an additional tariff of 50 percent on China. He said, it's not going to be talking to them as well if they
don't withdraw their retaliatory tariffs of 34 percent announced Friday. What are your biggest concerns about how far this could go?
WOLFERS: I think we're there. So, we're already at a 54 percent tariff rate with China. Add 50 points to that, that becomes 104. Everything you
buy from China just doubled. Now, they'll find lots of clever ways around that. People will ship stuff from China to a third country, which will do a
little bit of extra work and so on. But basically, two of the world's largest economies aren't talking to each other and they're both putting
themselves in a situation where politically it's going to be very difficult for them to reverse course.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And now, you're going to find perhaps Europe and other Asian countries that were always economically and politically aligned with
the United States seeming to find themselves talking to China as well. Betsey Stevenson, Justin Wolfers, thank you for joining us. Best to your
Son. I hope he gets that Nintendo. Appreciate the time.
WOLFERS: I hope yours does too, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Thank you. We'll be back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Well now, as Trump's policies reshape the federal government and global order as we know it, Americans are starting to show up and
resist. Demonstrations took place across all 50 states and globally on Saturday against President Donald Trump and Elon Musk. The rallies were
organized by a pro-democracy movement in response to what they call a hostile takeover, an attack on American rights and freedoms. So, is this
just the beginning of a broader resistance movement?
Utah State Senator Nate Blouin joins me now. Senator Blouin, thank you so much for joining the show. So, we had protest in New York, in Washington,
D.C., in Chicago, all over the country. What really stood out to us is that states, even like Utah, which Donald Trump won by more than 20 points in
the election in November, also saw a significant turnout.
I was going to ask you because you were there for these protests, if you'd ever seen anything like it, but I look on your social media site and you
actually write, I have never seen anything like this. So, walk us through what you encountered this weekend.
[13:20:00]
STATE SEN. NATE BLOUIN (D-UT): Yes. I -- thank you. It's great to be on here. It was an exciting weekend. I think we saw millions of people come
together across the country. And certainly, in Utah, a state that is known for conservative politics to drive up to Capitol Hill where I go to work 45
days out of the year during session and have a hard time finding parking, even getting up to the Capitol because of how many people were making their
way up there. It was really spectacular. I've never seen anything like it in Utah.
And added to the fact that it was the LDS General Conference. So, we had thousands of people in Downtown Salt Lake, and I think there were more than
a few of them who made their way up from downtown at the conference to the Capitol, which is an exciting thing to know.
GOLODRYGA: Again, we should note that these protests was planned before the news of Liberation Day last week with a new set of tariffs unveiled by
the administration. But since then, we've seen the stock markets sell-off significantly, massive sell-offs, three days in a row. We haven't seen that
in years. And that's rattled a lot of people in terms of what that means for their own financial security as well.
So, just talk to us about some of the concerns you heard from people, again, who had planned to come even before the tariffs were announced.
BLOUIN: Yes, I think that's a really important point is, as you mentioned, these protests have been planned for I think a couple weeks. And obviously,
this Liberation Day thing just happened late last week. People are feeling this acutely, hitting their wallets as we speak. I've listened into the
last segment and just heard about all of the potential impacts we're going to see over the next few months. And we heard all sorts of concerns from
economic concerns, obviously, but also in a state like Utah where we have a Republican super majority in the legislature.
People are worried about their healthcare. They're worried about Social Security. They're worried about our public lands here in a state like Utah
and making sure that we have adequate opportunities for recreation and preserving really pristine natural lands that make so much of the American
West just an incredible place to live.
So, all sorts of things, when you hear hands off, I think hands off applies to all of those things I just walked through.
GOLODRYGA: And you can you give us a sense of the demographics that you saw there as well? I mean, who were the people that turned out?
BLOUIN: Yes. I think it was a cross section of Utah, of the country. You know, of course, we saw all these ridiculous statements about protestors
being bused in and that sort of thing. This is Utah. I don't know where you'd bust people in from. Everyone lives within, you know, a few miles of
the capital in a state like this. We're one of the most urban states in the country as far as the Wasatch front having the major part of the
population. So, I think people were coming from all across the Wasatch front.
We saw protests all across the state actually. There were -- you know, in some of our smaller cities outside of Salt Lake County, there were I think,
you know, half dozen or so other protests that actually, you know, achieved more numbers than I think people would've expected. So, on top of the, you
know, tens of -- 10,000 or so, maybe at the Utah Capitol, thousands more across the state. And they came from all over the place.
You know, Republicans, Democrats, nonpartisan folks, which dominate the scene here in Utah. I don't think it was one political ideology or another,
it was just people who were fed up and trying to exercise their voice, trying to find a way to get involved and to push back on some of the chaos
that we're seeing right now was. It's just been incredible to see how quickly we went from, I think, a sense of calm under the previous
administration to a sense of chaos in the last couple month and particularly, in the last few days here in the U.S.
GOLODRYGA: Well, I mean, I wouldn't say that there was a sense of calm just describing it as a journalist from the last administration, because
you did have a president who won the popular vote as well, right, during this last election. There was -- which he didn't in 2016. And there was
concern about the direction the country was headed in economically at least in some of the issues that Donald Trump ran on appealed to voters who maybe
didn't vote for him the last time or thought weren't taken seriously by the Biden administration, but that doesn't seem to be what they have seen come
to fruition in these first six weeks -- or in these first 11 weeks of this administration.
And so, I'm curious if you heard from voters who voted for him, whether in 2016 or in November, that now have second thoughts about that vote?
[13:25:00]
BLOUIN: Yes, I think it's a good point. You know, Trump won the popular vote. I think a lot of people didn't quite grasp the robust recovery that
the U.S. has made over the last few years and, you know, having seen things seemingly on autopilot, they didn't feel like things were working for them.
But for the larger economy, I think it was headed largely in the right direction.
And so, I think people are feeling buyer's remorse. I've certainly talked to folks here in Utah who, you know, either haven't voted in the past or
came out or have, you know, changed their opinion over the last few weeks. I have plenty of conservative family members here in the state that, you
know, I don't think in the past would've necessarily considered voting for Democrats.
But right now, I think there's a strong sense that we're just trying to do the right thing for people, that we're trying to bring, again, back a sense
of calm to the economy, to social issues and trying to tamp down some of this controversy and all of this conflict that we're seeing in the country,
because it's certainly going to tear us apart if we don't really get focused on, on the things that matter and set aside some of these -- you
know, these social issues that I think people get so worked up about and are, you know, important to a lot of people.
But in the end, it's going to come down to how people are feeling the economy is working for them, how their families are faring. And we're not
seeing a lot of solutions coming from Republicans, whether it's here in Utah or at the federal level. And so, trying to restore a little bit of
faith in some of our institutions, I think, is something that we have -- we have a lot of work to do that, but it's critical that we move in that
direction.
GOLODRYGA: So, where do these protests in this movement go from here?
BLOUIN: Yes, I know there's another opportunity in a couple of weeks for folks to come out and demonstrate. I think two weeks from Saturday, so
April 19th, I believe, there are some more plans. I think -- you know, more than just protesting, I think it's great for people to get out and exercise
their voices. That's a part of a flourishing democracy for sure, is showing up and demonstrating and pushing back and speaking truth to power. But we
need people to get involved, whether it's local community councils, PTAs, run for your school board, run for city council, for the legislature.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
BLOUIN: I'm the youngest member of the Utah Senate. You know, I took on a longtime incumbent a couple of years ago and I think people are excited to
have some new voices stepping in that bring both some expertise in certain matters, but also, an ability to push back on some of the narratives that
have dominated U.S. politics and really, I think, created a lot of this discord in the country.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And some fresh perspective as well. Senator Nate Blouin, please come back. Thank you so much for the time.
BLOUIN: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, now, to Turkey where the country's biggest protest movement in more than a decade is vowing to keep up its anti-government
demonstrations. The unrest began in March following the arrest of President Erdogan's main rival and mayor of Istanbul, Ekrem Imamoglu, on corruption
charges. Critics call it an anti-democratic move, but the Turkish government says that it doesn't control the justice system.
Ece Temelkuran is a Turkish journalist and political commentator. She's also the author of "How to Lose a Country: The 7 Steps from Democracy to
Fascism," and joins me now. Ece, welcome to the program. We've been talking about these protests in this movement following the jailing of the very
popular mayor just before elections there. What do you think gives it the continued strength to keep going so many weeks later, especially knowing
the risks and the pushback from the government?
ECE TEMELKURAN, TURKISH JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR, "HOW TO LOSE A COUNTRY": Well, after 20 years, people are fed up and they are this time galvanized
by Ekrem Imamoglu, Istanbul mayor's arrest perhaps, but there are many factors that is working into these demonstrations. So, I think the genie is
out of the bottle, the die is cast.
So, this is the moment where there is no return. And I think this is -- we are going to see if Turkey, a country that has lost its democracy to a
dictator, whether this country is able to take back its democracy.
GOLODRYGA: Was the arrest of Imamoglu a trigger for this or was this movement inevitable in your view?
TEMELKURAN: Yes, it was inevitable. But then, Ekrem Imamoglu was not only Istanbul's mayor, he's a larger political figure. And he was only -- he was
the only political rival, so to speak, against Erdogan. And his opinion polls was so in favor of him.
So, simply Erdogan imprisoned his political rival. And yes, this may might be the galvanizing factor, but then underneath the demonstrations are for
asking democracy. And their main demand is dignity and freedom. So, yes, Ekrem Imamoglu is the reason, but it's accumulation of things in the last
20 years under Erdogan's regime.
[13:30:00]
GOLODRYGA: And in the last 20 years, I mean, now you have a system where 90 percent of the media is government controlled. I know you and many
others have compared this to the Gezi Park Protest movement in 2013. Can you talk about the similarities here and what, if any, lessons have been
learned that organizers of this movement can take with them?
TEMELKURAN: Bianna, the main difference is that this time people went onto the streets knowing the risks. There was a protest ban already. So, they
went onto the streets against the ban. They knew that they were going to meet with massive police violence, which happened. And the other difference
is, of course, this is another world now in 2013, there was more democracy in the world and there wasn't Trump in America or several other leaders,
similar leaders in Europe. So, the world was watching Turkey in a favorable way during the 2013 Gezi uprisings.
This time, Turkey is different. There's a lot of oppression, much more oppression than 2013. And the world is different. It is more silent when it
comes to masses demanding democracy. That is a very, very dark and unfortunate silence of course.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. I was going to ask how much of a hindrance that is, the silence from the rest of the democratic world, let's say, starting with the
United States, but also to E.U. neighbors as well. I interviewed a couple of weeks ago the chairman of the CHP Party, and he voiced his frustration
with Keir Starmer sort of muted condemnation of the arrest. We saw the secretary of state, Marco Rubio, also say he's going to seek answers, but
then also met with his counterpart. And Steve Witkoff, President Trump's envoy, had said in an interview, didn't even mention these protests, but
suggested that President Trump and President Erdogan had a very strong and productive conversation, and that something more was going to come out of
that conversation. We have yet to hear what that is. But how much of a setback is that for the movement?
TEMELKURAN: Well, Turkish people and Kurdish people, all the people in Turkey who are joining these protests, of course, they know that they're
alone in this. And they -- I think they took that risk as well. But then for the world, it's a sad situation because all these Western countries,
they do think that -- I think they still think that this loss of democracy will be limited, confined in crazy countries like Turkey and nothing will
happen to them, even though there is this massive right of far-right all over Europe.
So, and they are doing these real politic negotiations with Turkey because there is, you know, Russian threat and Europe is looking for arms,
armament, and Turkey with its second largest NATO army, it seems to be the natural candidate for that.
And I think Trump in America has encouraged many leaders like Erdogan to do what they do and keep doing it without any shame.
GOLODRYGA: Ece, we should note that you were due to speak at Princeton University, I believe, last week and chose not to come. Do you mind sharing
with us why?
TEMELKURAN: Well, it was the beginning of this border terror, I should call the, you know, random checks. And, you know, we heard that many people
-- several people, not many, but several people have been taken into detention because of their criticism of Trump and their stance about Gaza.
So, I was naturally concerned that same thing could happen to me. Because the randomness of it, I recognize from country -- from my country, Turkey,
one.
And the second, which was even more terrifying, was that there is no right to lawyer in that area, border area. So, I thought I shouldn't go. But
then, of course, I'm also waiting for Americans to change this through the demonstrations you just broadcasted.
GOLODRYGA: Are you optimistic about that? I mean, what did you think when you saw the protests here in the States over the weekend? Because as we
note, it's over a myriad of issues, right? This has been a short administration thus far, but there have been a lot of policies set forward
by this administration. So, people took to the streets with their own frustrations, whether it's about immigration, whether it's about concerns
about their own Social Security, financial status, you name it.
[13:35:00]
TEMELKURAN: Yes. Well, it's a good thing, because America is not as political as Turkey, has never been. Citizens are afraid of politics and
also, they -- it's somehow honorable to say -- think to say that I am apolitical. I don't -- I hate politics and so on. I think United States,
American citizens are finally realizing that being apolitical is not an option or saying that I hate politics is only bad politics. It is politics
though.
So, I think when, you know, Trump policies are touching them every day, they are coming to their senses and they are realizing that as citizens,
they're political subjects. I am longing for these protests because -- this is why I wrote "How to Lose a Country." It wasn't only to, you know, tell
what's going to come to United States, but it was also to show the common patterns, so that by knowing these common patterns, we can build a global
solidarity. And I see demonstrations in United States as part of a global wave that is in Serbia, in Turkey, in several other places as well, against
the rise of fascism.
So, I am not optimistic. I don't believe in this optimism, pessimism thing, but I do think that this kind of demonstrations are refreshing our faith in
ourselves, in other humans in terms of protecting our dignity when it's under attack.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, you mentioned your book, "How to Lose a Country," and we should note to our viewers who want to read it, you actually detail the
seven steps that lead a country from democracy to fascism. If we could leave this conversation and end it back in Turkey, because you wrote for
The Guardian that young people -- it's young people that are leading these protests. Here's -- I want to read from what you wrote.
TEMELKURAN: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: The old-school progressive opposition parties are highly bureaucratized and, as a result, paralyzed giants unable to keep up with
the agility of the new far-right. What is occurring in Turkey right now is youthful energy schooling and shoaling around the shipwreck, breathing life
into it by transforming the wreck into a reef. How significant is that?
TEMELKURAN: That is very significant because now you are experiencing, in United States, there's spontaneous more like, you know, non-political
citizens coming out. There is no political party leading it and so on. These spontaneous occupy like movements, let's say, that are not
accommodated by political parties. They are incredibly inspiring. They're keeping our humanity -- as humanity's dignity going and so on.
But then, this is the first time in several decades that we see this. A political party, conventional party in Turkey that is social Democrats, the
main opposition party, is trying to host the street action, the street -- the political movement in the street. This is a first time. And we are
going to see how it will result in terms of changing the course of history, changing the course of politics.
So, this is one of the important aspects of what's going on in Turkey. I think we are going to show -- Turkish people, we are going to show the
world that this kind of political experiment can actually, you know, change the things.
GOLODRYGA: Well, we will be watching, that is for sure. Ece Temelkuran, thank you so much for the time. Appreciate it.
TEMELKURAN: Thank you, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Well, now, is at the end of work as we know it? For a growing number of creatives in their 40s forties and 50s, the rise of social media
and artificial intelligence is upending their careers. New York Times reporter, Steven Kurutz, who got his start at a magazine, has witnessed
many in the, quote, "unhappy middle" experience this tough challenge. Aand he speaks to Michel Martin about their struggles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Bianna. Steven Kurutz, thank you so much for joining us.
STEVEN KURUTZ, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Thank you for having me.
MARTIN: You recently wrote a piece that I know got a lot of attention and has sparked a lot of conversation. It was about how Gen X creatives, people
who came of age in the analog era, people who are fully -- should be fully launched in their careers are basically seeing their careers disappear. I'm
thinking here about, you know, advertising, you know, media, design, photography, things of that nature. And just the whole world has changed.
So, what gave you the idea?
KURUTZ: Well, yes, I'm talking about a certain slice of Gen X. I mean, not doctors and bankers and construction workers, I'm talking specifically
about people who went into media and image making in the 1990s. And you know, these people and myself are -- you know, are now in their 40s and
50s. I'm Gen X as well.
And if you're my age and you're in one of these fields you either know people who this has happened to where their job has basically become
obsolete or they're really struggling in their career, or you know, it's happened to you or you are one of the lucky survivors and you're afraid
it's going to happen to you, and you're wondering how long you can hold out in one of these industries.
And I felt like there was really kind of like a quiet agony and a quiet grief out there. People don't necessarily want to talk about their finances
or the fact that their career isn't going well. And so, I wanted to pursue that and investigate that in the story.
MARTIN: And then, you think about A.I. I mean, you have one data point in your piece, you say that by 2030, the U.S. is expected to lose some 32,000
ad agency jobs to A.I.
KURUTZ: That's right. It is like 7.5 percent of the current workforce, and already advertising agencies have merged and the industry has contracted,
and A.I. is coming. And you know, you think about, well, if you're in your 40s and 50s, can you retrain?
But let's take an example. Let's say you're a sound editor for film and TV, and then A.I. comes and there's an A.I. program that does that job. There's
no amount of training that you can get to keep your job. A.I. is now going to do that job, and A.I. is going to come for copy editing and fact
checking and copywriting at ad agencies.
Let's say you're a graphic designer and you've had a robust career and you're very talented and you've spent 15, 20 years learning your craft.
Well, graphic design can get outsourced to foreign countries where it's -- the workers will do it for much less and the quality is good. And so,
you've been dealing with that. And now, here comes A.I. And A.I. will do graphic design. And if I'm the company, if I'm the brand or the business,
I'll just use the A.I. software and won't hire the graphic designer. And so, then what do you do when you're 55 years old and you're a graphic
designer?
The chief economist of the job recruiting website Glassdoor found that Gen X workers now account for about 25 percent of all unemployed workers and
they're taking longer to find new jobs. You were saying that part of the issue for Gen X in particular is what you call cursed timing. Will you talk
a little bit about that? What's -- what was the curse of their time?
KURUTZ: Yes. I'm glad I'm glad you brought that up. You know, every generation has its burdens and if you have a 40-year career, there's going
to be technological change in your career. But, you know, let's look at the baby boomers for example. They're now in their 60s and 70s. The more years
of their career were spent in the boom times, and that meant they could have higher salaries, and that meant that they maybe -- you know, if they
were good with their money they had the possibility to sock away money for retirement and buy a house.
And then, let's say you are Gen Z or millennials. You've seen this coming, you know, maybe you didn't get into advertising or you didn't become a
freelance photographer because you saw what was happening by the time you got out of school. And you're also digitally native.
[13:45:00]
And so, you understand, you know, Instagram and digital technology and TikTok, and maybe you're not afraid of A.I., but if you're Gen X and you're
in your 40s and 50s, you are in the unhappy middle. You know, you had 10 to 15 years of a career before things started to get shaky. You are 10 years
away from retirement. You know, and let's also -- you know, you're dealing with children, maybe trying to pay for college education. You've got a
mortgage, maybe you're dealing with elder care.
And let's also not forget that a lot of these jobs, they were fun, they were really interesting and creative. But they weren't necessarily highly
compensated. You know, I mean, my first job when I got into magazines as an editorial assistant, I think I made $27,000, you know. So, there wasn't an
opportunity to put away money. You were compensated in other ways by getting to be artistic and creative and going to interesting parties and
feeling like you were part of the culture.
And so, that part has gone away and also the financial part has gone away, and I think there's a lot of grief for people and grieving over the careers
that they had and trying to figure out -- I mean, really why I wanted to write the piece and talk to these people is to figure out what do you do?
What do you do when this happens to you? And what are these Gen Xers doing next?
MARTIN: What were some of the -- can you just tell me like one or two stories of the people that you interviewed for the piece?
KURUTZ: Yes. Yes. You know, I talked to a former magazine editor. He had started in magazines in the early 2000s, ended up at a dream job, really at
SPIN magazine as an editor and a writer. And through his time, it's been magazine things just kept getting worse and worse. The circulation fell,
the ad pages fell. Finally, the magazine went to, you know, digital and ceased the print publication.
So, him and his wife, they had two children. They lived in a tiny New York apartment. She also worked in media. They looked at each other and thought,
what are we going to do? They ended up moving to California. He took an editorial job at a big tech company and that job gave him the stability to
really think about the next move. And he went back to school and he got his master's degree in clinical psychology and now he's a therapist working
towards his state license to practice therapy. So, he made that career transition.
I spoke to a woman who was a prop stylist for many, many years for magazines and then for -- you know, on ad shoots. And she just took a
course to be a postpartum doula. I think some of these soft skill jobs, you know, therapy where it is analytical, you know, being -- you know, running
a business, you know, the woman who's becoming a postpartum doula, you know, the kind of job -- the analytical skills and the interviewing and
talking to people and listening that comes out of, you know, working in media I think can translate to a lot of other careers.
MARTIN: I know that you spoke of the sort of sense of grief that people have, but these sound like success stories to me. Therapists, counselors,
doulas, all these people, those are contributing to society. So, how -- it should -- I mean, is that really terrible?
KURUTZ: No, that's not terrible at all. The guy who started the store, the surf store, the surf brand, I think he's very happy he made the decision.
The guy who worked at a rock magazine and became a therapist, a part of him is still kind of, you know, dealing with, you know, this transition. These
were jobs that, for better or worse, I think became people's identity. He was the rock guy at SPIN magazine, you know, or you know -- the -- you
know, someone else was the cool freelance photographer who got to fly all over the world, and these were dynamic jobs. They were really interesting
jobs.
And even if you find something else gainfully, you know, it's sort of after doing something for 25 or 30 years, it's difficult. I talk to somebody who
rose to become an editor-in-chief of a magazine. And he read the writing on the wall and he jumped to software several years ago. And he said to me, I
still look across the fence at my colleagues in magazines and I still look at job openings and magazines because in my heart of hearts, that's where I
would rather be.
And you know, he took the job in software because he needed to pay the bills. The woman who's took the doula course like, this -- she's just now
starting this process and it's a long process. She took this course, but there's a certification process and several more courses, and also, she's
in -- she's trying to raise a child and live in New York City. And where do you have the resources to just take time off to go back and completely do a
different career?
[13:50:00]
MARTIN: Well, no, that's -- one of the points that you made is that people who are in their kind of 40s, that's where the family responsibilities
really start to kind of kick in.
KURUTZ: That's right. It is difficult. It is hard to make that pivot and it's hard to go back to school full-time, if you need to go back to school
full-time. I mean, I don't -- I said this, you know, we got over a thousand comments for this story. It became the kind of story that I think it
allowed people who were thinking these things, or maybe having private conversations to have a more public conversation about this. And I
responded in the comments that I don't want this piece to be woe is Gen X. You know, I mean, it is like, you know, Gen X is cursed.
I mean, Gen X is resilient and Gen X is independent. I mean, the Gen Xers are the latchkey kids and, you know, they're very resilient and they've
lived through recessions before. And I think Gen Xers will figure it out. These Gen X creatives will figure it out. It's just that this is that
period of time where the road -- they've come to the end of the road in their old careers I think for a lot of people. And so, they are in that
process now of thinking what is next?
MARTIN: Does this say something about the place of work in America, that we are very invested in work, in the work that we do, and some -- is it
that like the work that we do becomes who we are. And I do wonder if that's something having to do with these professions that people chose as opposed
to things that they just had to do? And so -- you know what I mean? I'm just wondering if some of that sense of grief comes from the fact that this
is a generation that had the choice of what to do?
KURUTZ: Yes. Certainly, for the folks that I'm writing about, yes. You know, and -- yes. And you -- and that was a choice to go into these
careers, these creative careers. And you're right, I think they -- in some cases, people probably did over identify, you know, that you weren't going
-- you weren't becoming a freelance photographer or copy editor or something else, you know, or a sound, you know, editor or audio engineer to
get rich. These were kind of passion jobs in a way.
And, you know, it was exciting to be able to make a living at them, to go around and say that you worked in a recording studio and got to work with
fans or, you know, you wrote, you know, at a magazine for a living. That was a cool thing. And yes, I think there -- the grief comes from maybe over
identifying.
And I also think that is -- you know, I didn't think about this necessarily when I was reporting, but reading through those thousand or more comments,
I think this -- the creative Gen Xers that I'm writing about here are really just sort of the tip of this. And with A.I. coming, you know, in a
couple years, I may be able to write the same kind of piece about lawyers or academics or even healthcare.
I mean, A.I. -- you know, if the technology lives up to the promises, and it's already starting to replace a lot of jobs, I think a lot of people are
going to think, I went into a seemingly stable job, you know, thinking I would have a career for life in this profession and I'm five years, 10
years away from retirement, and what am I going to do? And so, there's a lot of economic insecurity out there and a lot of sense of what is the
future of work, what does it mean? You know, is A.I. coming to help me in my job or is they A.I. coming to take away my job? Whether you work on Wall
Street or, you know, at a white shoe law firm. And so, you know, I think that this tapped into that, and albeit in talking about a specific group of
people.
MARTIN: What you're saying here makes me think, hmm, I wonder how this play is going to play out in our politics, because we tend to think of, you
know, creatives, it's a stereotype, OK? But as moral on the progressive side, right? I do wonder whether -- if there's this massive disruption that
leads to all these feelings as well as changed economic circumstances is going to affect our politics.
KURUTZ: I mean, I'm from the Rust Belt. I'm from a small industrial town in Pennsylvania. And so, I lived through the displacement of blue-collar
workers and those factory jobs. And we're seeing the kind of the turmoil that that has caused in the country socioeconomically, politically, in
terms of, you know, a person's identity and worth it, it's really already come for creative workers.
I mean, there has been books 10 years ago the death of the creative class, and it's coming for white collar professionals and how that -- how they
handle that and how our society handle that, it remains to be seen.
[13:55:00]
But I think it's a bit of a free for all. I don't see guardrails in place to protect those jobs, just like there really weren't guardrails put in
place to protect the manufacturing jobs. They just went overseas and the communities had to deal with it. And you know, we'll see if there are
guardrails put in place about A.I. and the coming displacement in the workforce.
MARTIN: Steven Kurutz, thank you so much for talking with us.
KURUTZ: Thank you for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you
can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
