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Amanpour

Interview with The New York Times Journalist Li Yuan; Interview with "Retrograde" Playwright Ryan Calais Cameron. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired April 09, 2025 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.

Trump hits China and China hits back. I get the details on the tariff turmoil tanking the global economy, and the view from Beijing.

Then, an IDF whistleblower tells Jeremy Diamond about turning a Gaza Buffer zone into a killing field.

Also, playwright Ryan Calais Cameron brings us back to the 1950s in Hollywood. And Sydney Poitier's formidable fight against McCarthyism.

Plus, detained by ICE. Canadian actress Jasmine Mooney tells Hari Sreenivasan what it's really like to be locked up at the U.S.-Mexico

border.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Donald Trump makes evermore extraordinary public proclamations. The latest, be cool, after single-handedly tanking the markets as his universal tariffs

have gone into effect today. Nobody knows where this will end up. Now, that the E.U. has approved counter-tariffs and China refuses to blink,

announcing plans to raise tariffs on American imports to 84 percent. It had been hit by an eye popping 104 percent by Washington.

Also hitting a nerve in Beijing, offensive words from Vice President J. D. Vance, in which he referred to, quote, "Chinese peasants" in an interview

defending U.S. policy. The Chinese foreign ministry called the comments ignorant and disrespectful.

So, a trade war, a war of words between the world's two biggest economies, that plus Trump's across the board crackdown on U.S. institutions is

raising the alarm in Beijing, which is trying to manage what's looking like a reckless trading partner.

Li Yuan, covers China and its foreign relations for The New York Times, and she's joining us from New York. Welcome to the program.

LI YUAN, JOURNALIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So, because you keep an eye on all this, even though you are doing it from the United States, what are you -- what are the most

important signals that you are picking up from inside China, the government and the people about what's happening?

YUAN: It seems to me the government is now determined to show that it's willing to fight to the end. That's what the Chinese foreign ministry

spokesman said the other day. And on the Chinese internet, a lot of nationalistic bloggers are saying, you know, the U.S. has declared a war on

China and they are talking about, you know, we are willing to -- you know, we are willing to fight to the end as well. And it's a lot of things are

going on.

But interestingly, last night, while I was scrolling on the Chinese social media, Weibo, and the -- you know, there's a hashtag saying like America is

going to impose 104 percent tariffs on China. And all of a sudden, that hashtag disappeared. And we're not sure, you know, what it means. And also,

like the 104 percent, the tariffs -- of the American tariffs on China, that 104 percent almost -- is also censored.

And also, I found a photo of -- it's a mocked photo. It's an A.I. photo of Trump, Vance, and Elon Musk are working on the Nike assembly line. And I

tried to send it to a few friends in a WeChat group and it didn't go through. So, there are lots of signals.

AMANPOUR: Signals, and I guess China is trying to manage it by allowing some protest and cracking down on some other. Do you think it's strange

that China is now claiming to be the rule follower and accusing the United States of being the rule breaker when certainly, the West has a lot of

issues, obviously, which China's sometimes often unfair trade practices and its IP practices?

[13:05:00]

How do you -- how is this going to play out, do you think, in China's favor or in the U.S.?

YUAN: I think it's very hard to say, you know, I'm trying to talk to some Chinese experts and they're like, you know, I really don't know how it's

going to play out. I don't really want to talk about it too much. And it's -- you know, it's definitely a game of chicken, right? It's -- the U.S. is

-- Trump is not backing down and he's saying like, be cool, and China is like, you know, we will retaliate if you impose more. And it's really hard

to see where it is going. But in the end, I think, you know, one aspect is that China has demonstrated it has the will -- you know, it has the will to

keep going.

And also, it's -- the Chinese government has had the history of making people to endure a lot of hardships, right? And it's a question about which

government can make its people to endure hardship. And remember, during the great famine, the great leap forward, tens of millions of Chinese was

starved to death because Chairman Mao was determined to industrial China in a few years or in a few decades. And you know -- and then, in the cultural

revolution and Chairman Mao also -- you know, millions of people died because Chairman Mao was trying to grab grasp power, to consolidate his

power.

And also in the past few years, China's economy has been in trouble and the youth and employment rate has been very high. And Xi Jinping told the young

people, you should eat (INAUDIBLE), you know, you should deal with it. And I think in terms of like the government's will to make its people to go

through a lot of difficulties, I don't think the U.S. government can beat the Chinese government.

AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's really interesting. We heard from the treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, today, he was in some kind of conference or

talking somewhere, and he basically tried to say, well, actually, we and the rest of the world, Europe, we should all ban together against China and

have a strong economy, all of us, and essentially punish China for what we believe are its unfair trade practices.

Do you think there's -- you know, you've said, and you know, China, that, yes, it's a dictatorship and they can tell their people to endure any

amount of hardship, but do you think they might be worried that the whole world will band against them?

YUAN: Yes. The Chinese president, Xi Jinping, held a meeting with his top deputies last night, I believe. And he told them, you know, we should

enhance our ties with our neighbors and we should build up a supply chain cooperation, industrial cooperation. And the Chinese government has been

trying to cozy up with Europe and Japan and South Korea and has been saying all the right things, right?

I read Xinhua last week. I was like, I've never agreed with the Chinese government so much. You know, talking about how to be a responsible

stakeholder and all that. But at the same time, we should also know that China's Asian neighbors are very worried about China's excessive exports.

And Europe has been, complaining about how much Chinese exports and they're getting -- and the -- you know, now, basically, the U.S. and China.

U.S. has been a very important export market for China and probably the highest profit margin. And now, China has to find markets elsewhere. But

you know, it has been saying all the right things, but I really think there's a lot of suspicion about the Chinese government and whether it's

really willing to do business on like a base of rule of law.

AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, you know, let's talk about rule of law, OK? Because most analysts believe that rule of law, the adhering to proper rules of the

road democratic institutions is not only good for your nation, but also good for your economy.

[13:10:00]

So, I'm very interested that you wrote one of your recent columns, talking about how you're hearing from people in China when Trump started to swerve,

let's say, against Ukraine and towards Russia, and then all the other things that have been unfolding in the United States. You were hearing and

then, Tom Friedman, your colleague, has written recently after a visit there that high-level and low-level Chinese are asking, hold on a second.

Is America having its own kind of cultural revolution, the Mao cultural revolution that we just talked about?

YUAN: Yes, it's -- there are a lot of talks on Chinese social media and in private conversations about, you know, what's going on in the U.S. You

know, they are like -- you know, it's the most striking similarity is a self-coup launched by a leader against the government it leads, right? Mao

did that to his own government and dismantled all the deep ministries, and it took 10 years for China to -- for the Communist Party to realize what a

big mistake it was.

And also, they were seeing how the Trump administration is silencing the media and going after law firms and all those things. It's like so

strikingly -- like a striking similar feeling. It's really, it's -- I know, you know, China is a one-party state and that the U.S. is a liberal

democracy. And China -- the two countries are very different. And during the cultural revolution, millions of people were persecuted to death. Of

course, there's nothing to compare with that in the U.S.

But the feeling of chaos of, you know, a government that's willing to destroy the rule of law, dismantle the government agencies and silencing

media, it's all of this, just have a really weird vibe.

A journalist, her pen name, is Jang Xia (ph). She was investigative journalist in China and she came to the U.S. a few years ago and she said,

I just feel, you know, it's like I am overwhelmed by this sense of familiarity, I feel like as if I'm back to China.

AMANPOUR: Wow. That is really difficult to hear. And the way you describe it as a self-coup is very vivid. We understand what you're saying. You talk

about the media. So, last question, what do you think the effect on the Trump administration shuttering Voice of America, Radio Free Asia, et

cetera, those kinds of media that the Americans provided for the rest of the world to get information, you know, certainly in dictatorships and when

all they had was state run propaganda?

YUAN: Yes. You know, generations of Chinese may included -- we started English from Voice of America's special English program. And the way --

along the way we learned -- you know, we listen to the news and we learned about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as ideals we are entitled

to. And we also, you know, listen to the news.

I went to college in 1989, and we were in the dormitory of seven girl students, right? And we were all poor, but each of us had a short-wave

radio and we listened to Voice of America in the evening and in the morning. And that was right after the massacre of Tiananmen Square. And

what I listened, what we listened on Voice of America contradicted the narratives of the Chinese government. And that made me think about, you

know, I had -- that one was my first suspicion of whether the government was telling us the truth, right?

AMANPOUR: Yes.

YUAN: Of course. I wasn't fully convinced, but that has the state of doubt. And I talked to a dozen Chinese who told me similar stories from

Stanford economist, who is now 74, and who listen to Voice of America during cultural revolution to people who are still in their 20s, and they

all said the same thing, you know, it's -- the U.S. government, by silencing Voice of America and Radio Free Asia, the U.S. government is

giving up the soft power. It's giving up the ideas of war. It's really a very sad thing for many of us.

AMANPOUR: Yes. And it was such a gift that the American gave the world, particularly people like yourself, and what a vivid description. And of

course, here in, in the U.K., the BBC World Service has historically provided that service as well. And so, many people learn the truth. And

now, if that's being silenced by America, it's -- it is very sad. Li Yuan, thank you so much. Thanks for your expertise there.

[13:15:00]

YUAN: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Now, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has returned to Israel after meeting Trump in Washington. He didn't secure tariff relief, but

maybe the bigger issue was Iran, as Trump has announced new nuclear talks with Tehran.

Meanwhile, Netanyahu continues the war on Gaza. An Israeli strike today killed at least 23 Palestinians, including eight children, according to

Gaza's civil defense. Netanyahu is still facing major resistance at home. 18 former Israeli security chiefs say he is not fit to lead.

One IDF Soldier is blowing the whistle on what he says was a policy to purposely turn a massive buffer zone inside Gaza into a total wasteland

even a kill zone. Here's Jeremy Diamond's report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Inside Gaza, swaths of land closest to the Israeli border have been turned into a

wasteland. Nearly every building within about a half a mile of the border fence has been destroyed. We filmed this footage a year ago while

demolitions were still ongoing.

Over time, the Israeli military has raised about 22 square miles of Palestinian land, creating a buffer zone on about 16 percent of Gaza's

territory. It is a no-go zone for Palestinians, some of whom have been killed after setting foot inside the unmarked perimeter.

Now, for the first time, an Israeli soldier sat down with us to describe how the military systematically destroyed civilian infrastructure to create

this buffer zone.

SOLDIER A: Some of them, the buildings were destroyed completely, and some are still standing. And our job was to make more of the first kind.

DIAMOND: But the fact that there were still buildings standing meant that the mission wasn't done?

SOLDIER A: Yes. And we destroyed them one by one in a very methodical fashion, area by area.

DIAMOND (voice-over): A sergeant first class in the Fifth Infantry Brigade. He was called up to reserve duty on October 7th and was later

deployed here in the industrial zone of Gaza City's Shuja'iyya neighborhood, protecting combat engineers as they bulldoze buildings and

rigged others to explode.

We've blurred his face and changed his voice because he risks reprisals for speaking out about a policy the Israeli military has never officially

acknowledged.

DIAMOND: Was it clear to you that this was not the actions of one commander or one unit?

SOLDIER A: Oh definitely. Definitely. I know other units were doing the same up north and then down south. I knew it came from up high.

DIAMOND: What did they tell you about the mission to raise these buildings and establish this security zone?

SOLDIER A: One, was that as a lesson from October 7th. We are going to have a larger buffer zone, larger than before. And the other was that on

October 7th, this industrial zone was used as a launching ground.

DIAMOND (voice-over): Over the course of the war, this one-time economic hub was flattened. This video, which CNN geolocated shows the destruction

of Gaza's only Coca-Cola factory. But it's not just factories, in the town of Khuza'a, hundreds of homes were leveled with a clear zone of destruction

spanning about one kilometer from the border.

Residential buildings, greenhouses, sheds, factories, you name it, it needs to be flat. That's the order. A sergeant major who served in Khuza'a said.

Except for the UNRWA school in that small water facility, the directive was nothing left.

He is one of a dozen Israeli soldiers who described the demolitions and enforcement of the buffer zone to breaking the silence. An Israeli watchdog

group that verifies and publishes soldiers' testimonials. Some also described how the buffer zone has been turned into a kill zone for

Palestinians.

A sergeant first class in the armored corps described the rules of engagement. Adult male kill, shoot to kill. For women and children, shoot

to drive away. People were incriminated for having bags in their hands. A warrant officer in the IDF said guy showed up with a bag, incriminated

terrorists, I believe they came to pick hubeiza, an edible plant. But the army says, no, they're hiding. Boom.

JANINA DILL, CO-DIRECTOR, OXFORD INSTITUTE FOR ETHICS, LAW AND ARMED CONFLICT: A kill zone is, in essence, the announcement of a party to the

war that they won't take feasible precautions, that they won't verify the status of an individual before attacking them. And that definitely violates

international laws.

DIAMOND: Is this kind of widespread destruction of civilian property to create a buffer zone legal under international law?

DILL: It needs to be a legitimate military objective and operational objective, and the only way to achieve it would be to destroy the civilian

property. At that scale, that's simply not quite plausible. If there's no military necessities, then that fulfills the criteria for a war crime.

DIAMOND (voice-over): The Israeli military did not respond to CNN's request for comments. More than 6,200 Palestinian buildings have been

damaged or destroyed within one kilometer of the Gaza border, according to satellite analysis, including here in Al Bureij, where homes and acres of

farmland were destroyed.

[13:20:00]

For 40 years, Abdulaziz al Nabahin (ph) grew olives, oranges, and guavas on that land, but that has all been ripped away from him.

When they announced the 40-day truce, we went back. We found the house destroyed. The trees were bulldozed. But he has lost so much more.

Abdulaziz (ph) says his son Mahmud (ph) went to collect firewood near their home when he was shelled by an Israeli tank and killed. The Israeli

military did not respond to CNN's request for comments.

They knew they were only collecting wood, not resisting or fighting, just a cart with wood clearly visible. Still, they were targeted. The Israelis did

this intentionally.

Even now, he says they will kill anyone who goes there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Well, now the IDF has responded, confirming that it has established a, quote, "broad military presence in the security zone

adjacent to Israel," saying, quote, "These actions are essential in order to prevent Hamas and other terrorist organizations from operating in the

area while ensuring the security of IDF forces and Israeli communities."

The IDF insists there acting in accordance with international law, despite what you just heard from Jeremy Diamond's reporting. And a reminder, that

they have still not let in any international aid to Gaza since the beginning of March.

Stay with us. We'll be right back after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: It is not just a global trade war that Trump has launched, but also a war on civil liberties and freedom of speech in America. Next, we

turn to an era from which painful lessons can be learned. McCarthyism in the 1950s saw a witch hunt known as The Red Scare at the height of the Cold

War. This very dark time in American history is the backdrop for a new play here by Ryan Calais Cameron, one of Britain's most exciting playwrights.

"Retrograde" takes an episode in the early life of actor Sidney Poitier, the groundbreaker of golden age Hollywood, who became the first black man

to win the best actor Oscar. The play charts a pivotal moment in Poitier's career. And he has to decide whether to accept star making contract with

ugly strings attached.

Ryan Calais Cameron came here to the studio to discuss his latest play and what attracted him to this very American story.

Ryan Calais Cameron, thank you for coming in.

RYAN CALAIS CAMERON, PLAYWRIGHT, "RETROGRADE": Thank you for having me.

AMANPOUR: From a busy schedule with this new hit West End play. The thing is, I was astonished to read that you didn't even know who Sidney Poitier

was --

CAMERON: Yes.

AMANPOUR: -- when you started.

CAMERON: Yes, about a decade ago I had heard of him. I knew he was something -- someone that was really important, but I wasn't educated on

this man. I didn't know he is brilliance or how much of a trailblazer he was, or how significant he was about to be to my life. You know, I'm not --

AMANPOUR: And you hadn't seen any of his films?

CAMERON: No, I hadn't. I'd seen clips, you know, black and white stuff. I think I was at a stage of my career where I was like, anything black and

white, I was like, oh, that's old. You know. I didn't realize --

AMANPOUR: Now, you appreciate it?

CAMERON: Oh, I appreciate it a lot more. Exactly.

AMANPOUR: So, what made you choose Sidney Poitier? I mean, literally, if anybody sees the play, which they do, "Retrograde," it's a case study about

McCarthyism through essentially one day just about, a meeting in an office with --

[13:25:00]

CAMERON: Between 90 minutes. Yes, yes, yes. For me, it was a case of like I hate not understanding something, you know? I hate feeling ignorant. So,

for me, it was, I don't know about this man, but he seems to have such significance and importance to a lot of people. That's the beginning of my

research.

You know, and I was researching a lot of stuff, and the more I researched, the more I was fascinated by him. And I came across this article that he

was speaking with Oprah about -- one time that he was in NBC. And he almost got blacklisted. And I was like, what? I'd heard about the blacklisted and

so much of my part of the artist, I knew that kind of stuff, but I never heard of it from the perspective of a black actor, someone that was already

dealing with Jim Crow, redlining, and then now this, I was like -- that to me sounds like the beginnings of the story.

And as I continued to read about what happened to him through his memoirs, you know, it started to sound more like a thriller. And I was like, OK,

someone's got be writing this.

AMANPOUR: But you know, it is -- I said to my team, I said I was on the edge of my seat because I know a lot about this stuff. I had no idea

whether he was going to submit or not.

CAMERON: Exactly. Exactly.

AMANPOUR: So, now's let's get to it. So, now, let's start with one of the early monologues from -- or dialogues from the play. So, he's in the

meeting with the writer who's going to make him the star of an NBC program that's going to skyrocket his career.

CAMERON: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And there's the company lawyer, or the production guy.

CAMERON: Yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: And he says, yes, but. So, here's what Sidney Poitier says about the script that's just been handed to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm leafing through the script. I'm like, Marty, I don't understand. I don't understand what the part is. He says, buddy, it's

Tommy. He's offered you, Tommy. See, I think about that moment a lot. I didn't even assume when being offered something even from a friend, that I

would be one of the central storytellers without caricature or stereotype.

See, I love this movie, because it brings something otherworldly that people like yourself cannot even fathom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So, there he was expressing his joy and delight to be getting this leading role.

CAMERON: Yes, yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: And then they tell him, but actually it comes with some very ugly strings attached.

CAMERON: Exactly. It comes out of price.

AMANPOUR: So, the price is?

CAMERON: His soul. You know, it's everything that he is, that made him who he is. He's integrity. You know, and he has to sell out or he has to give

the name of -- I'm trying not to give too much away, but he has to give the name of Paul Robeson, who is a massive giant of a man and icon to him. And

he has to consider what is more important to him, his integrity, or moving along in this industry that he's a newcomer in. And there's a lot more

stakes than that, but, yes. I want people to see it.

AMANPOUR: Yes. No, because it really is, you don't really know if you don't know the full story.

CAMERON: Exactly.

AMANPOUR: And you know that so many did sell out, people, and so many people were blacklisted. Charlie Chaplin, for instance, was blacklisted.

CAMERON: Exactly.

AMANPOUR: Could never -- pretty much, could never work again after that.

CAMERON: Yes, yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: So, it was really serious.

CAMERON: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And a lot of actors, like a Sidney Poitier who had no money and had a family and kids, they really -- they couldn't afford.

CAMERON: Exactly.

AMANPOUR: And then, it moves on. And we'll get to the -- I don't know whether -- the spoiler alert or what, but there is a moment in the play

where he talks about, and you -- well, you wanted to pay homage to something Sidney Poitier had done in an actual film called "The Heat of the

Night." When he stared down and actually engaged in some physical retaliation.

CAMERON: Yes, yes, yes.

AMANPOUR: So, tell us what you were trying to do with that.

CAMERON: Yes.

AMANPOUR: I'm going to play the clip. This is "In The Heat of the Night," Sidney Poitier, and the plantation owner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNEY POITIER, ACTOR: We were just trying to clarify some of the evidence. Was Mr. Colbert ever in this greenhouse, say last night about

midnight?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So --

CAMERON: That slap is the slap that echoes through generations to me. You know, I feel like where -- whoever you are, whatever walk of life, whatever

decade you feel the weight of that. And I can't imagine what it felt like for an audience seeing that at that time, you know, somebody that is being

-- you know, he's in a position where he is always going to be oppressed or he is going to be the side character was whatever, and he is like, I've had

enough, I've slapping back, you know, and I was like, I need to get that moment in this.

AMANPOUR: And how did you get it in?

[13:30:00]

END