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Amanpour
Interview with Former U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell; Interview with "A State of Rage" Director Marcel Mettelsiefen; Interview with Copper Cow Coffee Founder Debbie Wei Mullin; Interview with M.M. LaFleur Founder and CEO Sarah LaFleur; Trump with Italian PM Giorgia Meloni. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired April 17, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Could chaos from Trump's trade war cause a major global realignment? I asked Kurt Campbell, architect of U.S. China policy under Presidents Obama
and Biden.
Then, "A State of Rage." A new documentary looks at how Palestinian and Israeli children are impacted by occupation and conflict on the West Bank.
And Michel Martin speaks to two American entrepreneurs about how tariff uncertainty disrupts their business and their lives
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
This stark warning on terrorists from the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank chair, Jerome Powell, sent stocks tumbling today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIR: The level of tariff increases announced so far is significantly larger than anticipated, and the same is
likely to be true of the economic effects, which will include higher inflation and slower growth. Both survey and market-based measures of near-
term inflation expectations have moved up significantly, with survey participants pointing to tariffs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: This kind of intervention is rare from a Fed chief and Trump was quick to attack the messenger. Powell's termination cannot come fast
enough, he posts. But countries around the world are asking a fundamental question, is it in our best interest to align more closely with China or
with the United States?
The Wall Street Journal reports, the Trump team led by the Treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, is using tariff negotiations to pressure allies
to limit trade with China. While China seeks to position itself as a force for stability and peel business away from the United States. China may be
pushing on an open door, as economist, Mark Blyth tells the New York Times, the whole world has decided that the U.S. government has no idea what it's
doing.
Kurt Campbell helped guide China policy -- China-U.S. policy through multiple administrations, and was deputy secretary of State under Joe
Biden. He joins us now for his first interview since leaving government. Kurt Campbell, welcome back to our program. It's a long time we -- since
we've spoken.
So, what do you think about this big strategic picture that the Trump administration appears to be thinking about as reported by The New York
Times, to gather its trading partners and to essentially, I don't know what the right word is, gang up or isolate China, you know, and make it come to
the negotiating table? What do you think is that a possibility?
KURT CAMPBELL, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Christine, first of all, it's great to be with you. Thank you so much for having me back on the
program. Thank you for raising the pressure of my first interview, but I'll do my best to not let the side down.
Look, the first question that every government or representative asks me is, does the Trump team have a larger plan as sort of a strategic approach?
And I think it is fair to say, in many of these circumstances, they're sort of playing it as it goes. I'm not sure they had originally decided that
part of the negotiating plan with allies and partners would be to pressure them about their trade or their economic relations with China. Most of the
focus, as you know, have been about the bilateral relationships between these countries and the United States and trade imbalances there. And so, I
think these negotiations that are just beginning.
I do want to underscore the idea that you can complete 90 negotiations or even 10 or 15 in 90 days is just remarkably challenging. Some of the
negotiations that we've had on trade with countries and partners, like with Japan, Christiane, the so-called SII talks, the strategic impediment talks
of the 1980s and the 1990s, what looked at why it was difficult for American exporters to penetrate the closed Japanese market, those
negotiations went on for years.
[13:05:00]
Now, I think there is some incentive to move more quickly now, but at the base of this is that, unfortunately, many of the countries that we would
count as our closest partners right now, Japan, South Korea, Europe, Austria, they're all feeling the heat and they have as many questions now
about Washington as they do about Beijing, and that's not in our strategic interests.
AMANPOUR: OK. But in terms of the question about the Trump administration's apparent strategy, yes, you say that, and we've seen them
punish allies as well as adversaries with these tariffs. We've got the Italian prime minister in the White House today talking on behalf of
Europe.
But is it a smart idea to get trading partners to, I use the word gang up, but I'm not sure what the right word is, against China, who the U.S.
considers, as you know, to be involved in unfair trade practices, et cetera, and thus force China? Because China seems to be doing the same
thing. It's going around to its allies in the region and even reaching out to E.U. and all the rest of it seeming to want to do the same thing, say,
come to us. We'll be trading partners in this climate.
CAMPBELL: So, look, Christiane, I think there are some critical issues in which coordination and close alignment between the United States and
partners is essential. Technology, advanced areas like A.I., quantum computing, synthetic biology, you can go down the list. I think those areas
require much closer engagement between the United States and its partners, not only to advance certain technologies, but to restrict the flow of
certain technologies to China.
I think those are appropriate areas of engagement. And there are other strategic elements, strategic minerals and the like, where organization of
the partners is essential. But to go beyond that, to sort of the normal flow of economic intercourse, consumer goods and the like, I think that's
going to be harder to get countries and partners to restrict those investments and engagements.
And so, the truth is, Christiane, they are talking about trying to get countries to work with the United States, but we don't know what the terms
are. We don't know the subject areas. And so, we're waiting to see what the initial discussions with Japan, with Italy and other countries, what is the
framing for what the administration is seeking in these bilateral talks.
And in truth, I will tell you quietly, most of the countries that go into these talks find themselves sort of waiting to hear at the table what the
United States is proposing.
AMANPOUR: So, it's all kind of a surprise to them as well. But China has been very defiant publicly. There's no doubt about that. President Xi
himself has said things, their foreign ministry spokespeople, and all sorts of independent, you know, analysts and experts with obviously close
government ties, like Victor Gao, who runs a think tank in Beijing. He's been quite robust on what he's saying. This is his latest on this issue.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICTOR GAO, CHAIR PROFESSOR, SOOCHOW UNIVERSITY: China is, at this moment of truth again, we are mobilizing all domestic demand, try to accommodate
whatever that could not be sold to the U.S. market. We're exploring all the possible overseas market to make up for whatever businesses lost in the
U.S. market.
So, eventually, I think, we are faced with a possible situation where trade between China and the United States, both way, will grind to a halt. And
China, U.S., economically speaking, will have decoupling. But what will be the consequence? That will not make America stronger or greater, that will
make the United States probably more miserable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Kurt Campbell, he's raising the real threat of a complete decoupling. You, you know, have sort of treaded a hardline stance in terms
of -- under the Obama administration, the Biden administration with trying to deal with China. Democrats and Republicans have a fairly similar view on
what economic threat China poses and even military threat. How bad would decoupling be?
CAMPBELL: Look, Christiane, I do not think either China or the United States are prepared for a full decoupling. And I think the art of the deal
here is to find what elements of commerce are unobjectionable and that you would want those to continue and people to people engagements that -- so
that there is appropriate economic and commercial interaction between the United States and China, and restrict those areas that have true national
security significance.
[13:10:00]
I think the point that you're getting at, Christiane, is this, that there are no two countries that are frankly today more interdependent than the
United States and China across every possible vector, manufacturing, finance. Look at how many treasuries the Chinese hold in American dollars.
But at the same time that there is this deep integration that has been built up over decades. Again, in everything, in pharmaceuticals, in
manufacturing, in agriculture. At the same time, both countries are deeply uncomfortable with that interdependence and are seeking to ease it in
various ways, but that process takes time. It is challenging given, you know, the mutual vulnerabilities.
And so, I think what's happening right now, I do not believe either China nor the United States seeks a full out economic crisis. But I also think
that neither side knows how to climb down right now, how to create the venues for appropriate dialogue.
I think we know in the last couple of days, the United States, you know, told China that President Trump would be prepared to accept a call from
President Xi. That's a hard way to get dialogue started just at the very top with no clear parameters about what either side would discuss.
So, I think the key is to find those lines of communication that allow for, you know, feeling each other out in terms of what's possible and then build
towards more high-level engagement. I think that's the challenge right now. And it's not clear that either side is prepared to take those steps. Steps
that are frankly essential for the global economy.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, as if the global economy wasn't important enough, there's another huge macro picture as well, and that is increasingly being
talked about overseas for sure, who's going to lead the world order, the next world order that comes out of this?
CAMPBELL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And we hear reports from China, even some from Russia, who seem to be thrilled that the United States seems to be shooting itself in the
head, and potentially, certainly, we've heard that from a former conservative British prime minister who says any sort of cozying up with
these adversaries and distancing from allies just makes Xi and Putin, quote, "dance a jig." And they think that they are, or at least certainly
China, which is the big hegemon, will replace American leadership, that they see the decline of America. They're only too eager to facilitate it.
And you've written, Washington would be particularly unwise to go it alone in a complex global competition. By retreating to a sphere of influence in
the Western hemisphere, the United States would cede the rest of the world to a globally engaged China. Discuss.
CAMPBELL: Christiane, look, let me just say that I think, over the course of the last several years, it was China's overreach, it was Xi's tendency
to use hard power with neighboring countries and other players on the international stage that, frankly, alienated some of China's natural
interlocutors.
And I think it was the United States that tried to build allies and partnerships and innovative new gatherings like the Quad. I think the hope
is and the belief is that the challenges are so enormous that the United States is better off working closely with allies and partners. And frankly,
I put Europe, first and foremost, in that everything that the United States has ever done of significance on the global stage we've done with Europe,
but also, the connections between Europe and the Indo-Pacific, Japan, Australia, South Korea, increasingly India, these countries, I think, want
to partner with the United States, it has undeniably become more difficult under President Trump.
The hope is -- and look, there are still lots of issues that are yet to be worked at in the Trump administration, and there are a number of
traditional Republicans who believed fundamentally that strong allies and partners is the key ingredient in sustaining American power in a complex
and increasingly challenging world.
Now, I don't know where the Trump administration will ultimately land, and like you, I'm troubled by some of the language we hear coming out of
Washington about Europe. But the hope is with more engagement, more dialogue with allies and partners, they will understand the stakes and the
strategic significance that the United States cannot afford, Christine, to go it alone. We don't have the power, we don't have the capacity, we don't
have the markets.
[13:15:00]
And so, this next six-to-eight-month period for the administration, frankly, is going to be central as they conduct all these negotiations and
try to position themselves globally.
I will say, and again, we all have an interest in a degree of success here. I am struck at how many actors, internationally and domestically, the Trump
administration is reaching out against as opposed to trying to bring on board.
AMANPOUR: Well, look, I mean, you know, as a European it's hard to hear that we are pathetic and freeloaders and all the rest of it, given the
amount of cooperation that Europe has had over the decades with the U.S.
But -- so, on the diplomatic side, and you were deputy secretary of state and you see that Secretary of State Rubio is talking about, or at least
their reports, that the administration is looking to close nearly 30 embassies and consulates around the world. Rubio announced he's shutting
down the State Department office that battles foreign disinformation. We've seen that.
And I just want to play this really interesting soundbite from James Mattis, former general who was Trump's first defense secretary. This, he
said, you know, years before he was in the Trump administration, but it was about diplomacy versus the military. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES MATTIS, THEN-COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: If you don't fund the State Department fully, then I need to buy more ammunition ultimately. So,
I think the -- it's a cost benefit ratio. The more that we put into the State Department's diplomacy, hopefully the less we have to put into a
military budget as we deal with the outcome of an apparent American withdrawal from the international scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, right now, Rubio and others, Witkoff, the special envoy, are in Paris meeting President Macron and basically trying to, you know,
discuss the whole -- well, many things I'm sure, but also the Ukraine- Russia situation.
So, when you see how many diplomatic crises and challenges exist on the horizon right now, what do you think would happen if that number, and we
don't know where, of embassies and staffing and various consulates are cut back?
CAMPBELL: Look, Christine, those reports affect me and concern me more than just about anything else. Like you've indicated, I've had the honor of
serving a couple of different times at the State Department. These are some of those patriotic tremendously determined and dedicated individuals I've
ever worked with. And the idea somehow that this agency is not working to support American interests and has to be tamed or cut back, I just think is
just flat wrong. And I worry that the kinds of cuts that are being discussed would, you know, pose just a devastating hit to an institution
that always struggles, I think as you know, financially.
If you look at the various bureaucracies, Christiane, the Pentagon really is an institution and our intelligence agencies almost on steroids. They
have a lot of support, bipartisan. The State Department, we do have our supporters on Capitol Hill, but almost always its budgets are a little bit
on life support in comparison.
And so, it always struggles. And I think the most recent reports of cutting way back in Africa and Europe are not going to be in American strategic
interests. My hope will be that determined bipartisan actors on Capitol Hill and elsewhere will make clear that these are not simply decisions that
the executive branch can take and that there are other agencies and actors that have a say in these decisions. And I think you're beginning to see key
voices on Capitol Hill speak up about sustaining American purpose internationally.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that brings me to a little bit of -- something that Senator Lisa Murkowski said that has gone viral.
CAMPBELL: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Because you're talking about people speaking up. Many people say it has to be Republicans. You know that Senator Marco Rubio, as a senator,
was much more a traditional Republican when it came to foreign policy than he is now as a Trump secretary of state.
But here's Lisa Murkowski talking about the difficulty of speaking up, especially if you're a Republican here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): We are all afraid, OK? It's quite a statement.
[13:20:00]
But we are -- we're in a time and a place where, I don't know, I certainly have not -- I have not been here before. And I'll tell you, I'm oftentimes
very anxious myself about using my voice because retaliation is real. And that's not right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Right. Well, I don't know how much you were able to hear of that. It was subtitled, but basically, she says, we are all afraid. She
herself says she's very anxious about using my voice because retaliation is real. But then, she goes on to say, I will use my voice in the right lanes
and in the right way. How -- what's your gut reaction to that?
CAMPBELL: I mean, it concerns me about the American system, and I can tell you that, you know, I spent a lot of time in my previous incarnation at the
White House and the State Department meeting with key partners on both sides of the aisle, Christiane, up on Capitol Hill, in the Senate and the
House, talking about American pursuits internationally. I didn't find any of those guys lacking in courage or having any hesitation about being
direct with me.
And I just -- I think maintaining that voice is going to be central. I would also just underscore, and this is something that I don't think is as
well appreciated, much of what we've done with allies and partners, really the topics that you're discussing, our China play, how we've engaged allies
and partners, has had a remarkable amount of bipartisan support over the last four or five years. True engagements on both sides of the aisle, on
technology policy and efforts that we've tried to do in terms of, again, working with allies and partners militarily, strategically, and
diplomatically.
Increasingly, the Trump approach is somewhat different than both the Democratic and Republican approaches. And the hope will be over time where
there are growing concerns. And I agree with Senator Murkowski, who I think does a fine job not only representing Alaska's interests, but helping us
think particularly about our responsibilities in the Indo-Pacific.
I do believe behind closed doors there are people that are feeling that they have to speak out more, and I think we're seeing signs of that. I
cannot believe the American system is facing a situation that a powerful extraordinarily accomplished senator, like Senator Murkowski, feels fear to
speak out, that's not something that we can be comfortable with.
AMANPOUR: Yes. She says she continue -- she will continue to. Kurt Campbell, thank you very much indeed for joining us. And we'll be right
back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Now, to the crisis in the Middle East where Israel's ban on humanitarian aid in Gaza leaves children malnourished and clean water
scarce. Defense Minister Israel Katz has said the siege will not be lifted because it is, quote, "one of the main pressure leavers preventing Hamas
from using it as a tool with the population."
[13:25:00]
Just a note, it was similar talk of starvation of Gaza civilians that landed then-Defense Minister Yoav Gallant with an indictment from the
International Criminal Court.
Today, with Gaza's buildings in rubble, Israeli forces are targeting tents, carrying out deadly airstrikes on displacement camps in the north and the
south. Israel is also applying so-called Gaza tactics in the occupied West Bank.
The U.N. reports that almost a thousand Palestinians were killed there since October 7th, the Hamas attack there, a large-scale military operation
named Iron Wall has left thousands more homeless now.
Now, a new documentary called "A State of Rage" aims to put a human face on all of this through the eyes of children on both sides of the conflict.
Here's a bit of the trailer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Come on, surrender yourself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Come to the garbage, to the garbage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I sometimes dream and suddenly someone comes and stabs me. And then, I am martyred.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Hands up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The director is Marcel Mettelsiefen. He joins us now. And you're in Ecuador. We'll talk about why in a second. But you are, you know, in
your -- continuing your program of exploring the world through the eyes and the experiences of children. So, tell me what drew you to the one that
we're talking about, "A State of Rage."
They basically, I'll just put it out. Jana and Heba are two 10-year-old Palestinians in the Janine refugee camp and in the settlement, Khavat
Gil'ad, Renana and Naomi are two sisters. And you focus quite a lot on the older one, Renana. It's really interesting to see it from both sides. What
-- how did you choose them? What brought you to this place?
MARCEL METTELSIEFEN, DIRECTOR, "A STATE OF RAGE": Thank you for having me, Christiane. Yes, it was, I think would be fair to say it's one of the most
difficult and complicated films of my career. When October 7th happened, the terrible attack in Israel, I was here in Ecuador actually working on my
film I'm doing right now.
And I immediately thought I need to go to Israel. And I arrived I think on October 25th, means there have been 15 days after -- about 15 days after
the attack, and I needed to decide where to go, what to do. Over a thousand journalists been already in the country gaining access to the hostage
families. And I thought, OK. I'm not able to go to Gaza. I going to look into the other -- to the West Bank where nobody's looking.
And I think if the -- this country, these two people want to have something called a future, they need to find a way of coexistence. So, I said, OK,
let's go and look into the most extreme parts in the West Bank, which is on the Palestinian side is the three areas which are controlled by the so-
called armed resistance against occupation, which is Jenin, Tulkarm and Nablus refugee camps.
And I decided to go and look into Jenin because of different reasons. It's small enough in order to be able to walk around, and I very quickly met
Jana and her family context, father, somebody who's, yes, afraid that the - - especially his son is picking up arms. And you have this loving grandma. And they're living amongst, yes, the 20,000 people within this refugee
camps surrounded by funerals every day, demonstrations and yes, in the context of pain, hate, and rage.
On the other side, I decided, OK, whom can I follow there? And I very quickly said, OK, I need to look as well on the most extreme part the scale
of the Israeli population and -- which are the separates. And I was much harder to gain access. And it took me a while until I got to have Khavat
Gil'ad, which is the post next to Nablus where I met Yael (ph).
AMANPOUR: Yes.
METTELSIEFEN: Mother of five.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, the --
METTELSIEFEN: And it was --
AMANPOUR: Yes. I just want to interrupt you because I want to play some of your soundbites that you got from them. It's actually both extraordinary
families. And the settler family, the father, Rabbi Rael Shaak (ph), was killed in a terror attack in the Northern West Bank in 2018. And you talked
to the daughter and the mother. But we'll get to -- let's talk about the kids first. Here is what -- here is what Renana, the oldest sister, the
oldest daughter of this rabbi who was killed tells you about October 7th and how that affected her. Here's what she says.
[13:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RENANA (through translator): Since October 7th my opinion hasn't changed too much, but it has sharpened. Up until now, I thought they were heartless
people, bad people with no manners. No forgiveness. None of them are innocent. Anyone of them could get up one day and decide to kill and they
would do it. They are cannibals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, extremely upset, extremely angry, hate-filled, fear-filled. Now, I'm going to play this -- the young girl. On the Palestinian side who
she's there standing on rubble, the sisters -- oh, I think they're sisters. They are basically standing in front of a poster of a dead Palestinian
militant. Here's what one of them says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): God chose him to die a martyr. God loved him and chose him. He will be at the gates of paradise. He's in a
better place. For sure. We must defend ourselves and fight them. We shouldn't remain silent while they kill us. We should stand, even as little
ones and wage jihad for the sake of God. Every little child should carry a weapon and resist and fight them.
The whole Al-Katiba battalion was killed. No one is left in (INAUDIBLE). But we will always resist. Even though we're young. This is our country and
there is no war that we will leave. We will never give up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): God willing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Wow. I mean, both of them are so powerful. Both the Israeli and the Palestinian kids who you profile is so powerful. I guess, it's very
dark. Did you see anything other than that, anything else from those kids? Was there any hope or do you think it's baked in?
METTELSIEFEN: Well, look it's a film, which is it's a dark film. I normally try to look for the light and the darkness. I -- for hope. And
I've been struggling. I went back and forth for nine times over a year trying to see if there is something beyond hate, beyond rage. I tried to
use the word rage hoping that there is still, yes, the way to stop all this. And that's basically where it lands.
The clear message, a simple message that it needs to stop now because otherwise, the scale of this violence, of this spiral violence just going
further and further, because that's what it's interesting with this families is that both families Yael (ph) and mothers of the settlers and
the father realizes that this is a young generation, which is just becoming more radicalized.
And none of those two set of children chose where to be born. And yet, they are shaped by this -- by the context where they live in. And in a very
unbalanced conflict we have to really understand this, that it's not a balanced situation. It's an unbalanced conflict. One of these groups are
occupied and not able to choose anything and the others are able to choose and deliberately choose where to live.
But I think, for me, it was very important to say, I'm not comparing victimhood, I'm not comparing the two realities. What I do compare and what
I try to show is the mechanism of this anger, the mechanism of radicalization through the eyes of girls, not boys. Again, something I
deliberately try to look for, because otherwise, you would immediately say, well, why should I care for these boys who are going to become the next
terrorist or --
AMANPOUR: Yes, that's so interesting. Yes, yes.
METTELSIEFEN: The settler violence with be there as well.
AMANPOUR: Yes. That was really interesting to see those girls and also the mother, as you say, the Israeli mother, Yael Shaba (ph) who says, or you
say that she's an immigrant from Paris. And she's been thinking since October 7th more and more, as she says, in the film about the environment
in which she's raising her kids. And here she's talking, in your film, about what's kind of changing her thought process. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YAEL SHABA (PH) (through translator): I think what awakened for me all of a sudden, I was aware of living here surrounded by people I don't know,
people with whom I don't share a language. I don't know their culture.
[13:35:00]
I look at myself intellectually and think, how do I raise children this way? Who aren't aware of their surroundings? Who don't ask questions about
who's next to them? And who don't want to know, even worse than being unaware they don't want to know.
For me, I need to recalibrate because I hasn't noticed this before. I want to pay attention to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: It is really interesting because it's very introspective and she becomes more and more introspective and very different to the tone of her
young 16-year-old daughter. I found that really an interesting observation because the parents can see what's happening and how their kids or the next
generations will be radicalized one way or the other.
METTELSIEFEN: Absolutely. Now, Yael (ph) is an extraordinary character and so is as well the grandmother on the Palestinian side. For me it was --
well, the amount of dehumanization, especially from the settlers' side towards the Palestinian, something I was not prepared for and I did not
expect. And it was actually Yael (ph) who surprised me, and that's why I picked her, because I thought to pick somebody who is absolutely without
limits, radicalized, what's the point?
I -- and I was looking for something which just gives an arc of development. Although it's obviously naive to think that there is something
which changes from one day to the other, but it's a process. And I think that's what I tried and that's why I struggled to find a landing point. And
we reduced it to this very, very, very simple message of enough is enough.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And as you mentioned on the Palestinian side, the father of the boy, you know, the brother of these two girls was very concerned that
he shouldn't, this young boy, grow up as a militant or anything like that. And the grandmother, as you point out, was incredibly loving and trying to
shield the girls.
What -- you know, you are doing another film on kids in Ecuador. You've done, you know, kids under the Taliban and elsewhere. What is the common
thread? What are you finding in Ecuador right now? What did you find, you know, in Afghanistan?
METTELSIEFEN: Well, what I'm trying to do is always trying to find this little microcosmos and tell the bigger context through the strong
characters I'm able to gain access to. And here in Ecuador, I'm in a country which used to be the safest place in Latin America, one of the
safest countries in Latin America. And since COVID, it became the most dangerous country in Latin America.
My mother is from Ecuador. I'm familiar with this country and we do have now a new president, Noboa, who is likely as -- Bukele trying to fight
violence with even more violence. And I think I'm doing a film here right now which shows how far can a country go in their quest to fight evil. And
I think that's when it starts to become, again, very universal.
And through the children, obviously, it's the next generation. We are in times where everything is so divided, so polarized, and I think the lack of
dialogue just fuels the incapacity of -- put ourselves in the shoes of the other, of the -- and this just creates this split more and more and more.
And I think, yes, going -- finding this kind of strong characters and children's, obviously, something which is a challenging and sometimes quite
effective.
AMANPOUR: Very effective. And the whole idea of being able to see the story of the other, especially through children's eyes, is fundamental. We
look forward to your Ecuador film and thank you so much, Marcel Mettelsiefen, for joining us.
And in Europe, you can stream "A State of Rage" right now, including on Channel 4 here in the U.K. Stay with CNN. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, as we have been discussing, President Trump's tariffs are prompting radical changes for American business owners, like Debbie Wei
Mullin, the founder of a coffee company rooted in Vietnam, and Sarah LaFleur, who owns a clothing brand, which relies on overseas factories.
They speak now to Michel Martin about what this has done to them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Debbie Wei Mullin and Sarah LaFleur, thank you both so much for joining us.
SARAH LAFLEUR, FOUNDER AND CEO, M.M. LAFLEUR: Thank you for having me, Michele.
DEBBIE WEI MULLIN, FOUNDER, COPPER COW COFFEE: Thank you so much.
MARTIN: So, the reason we called you both is that you have been affected by these promised threatened tariffs. Both of you are entrepreneurs, you're
-- both of your businesses are established. So, before we get into that, why don't you just start by telling us why you're in the business that
you're in. Debbie, why don't you start?
MULLIN: So, I started Copper Cow Coffee as the first premium Vietnamese coffee company, and it's a real homage to the way I grew up. My mom is from
Vietnam and I'm really passionate about all things Vietnamese cuisine, and think that Vietnamese coffee, which is the second largest coffee producer
in the world, was really not seen in the U.S. market and really wanted to elevate Vietnamese coffee as a way to bring development to Vietnam.
MARTIN: Interesting. Sarah, what about you? You also have a story that you've shared on your website about why you started your business.
LAFLEUR: Yes. I started my business back in 2013. I myself actually don't come from the fashion world, but I was a management consultant. I found it
very far hard to find good practical but fashionable clothing for professional women. Women on average spend two more weeks per year getting
ready for work versus men. And I really wanted to tackle that challenge.
I was -- I partnered with my co-founder, Miyako Nakamura, who came from a high-end fashion background. And our goal has always been to provide, you
know, luxurious fabrics, luxurious manufactured clothing to hardworking professional women.
MARTIN: So, Debbie, Coffee isn't really grown in the United States, is it? I mean, maybe in Hawaii, right, in Hawaii?
MULLIN: Yes.
MARTIN: But not in the continental United States.
MULLIN: It's only a fraction of what the U.S. consumes in terms of coffee consumption.
MARTIN: But you couldn't have the kind of coffee company you have with outsourcing it from Vietnam, right?
MULLIN: Absolutely not.
MARTIN: OK. So, how did you -- did -- when you first heard that Vietnam was on the schedule of tariffs, and in fact, Vietnam was one of the
countries that was originally supposed to be hit with one of the highest tariffs at like 46 percent, do you remember what went through your mind?
MULLIN: Just complete shock, to be honest. As I'm sure you're aware, we've been suffering through a coffee crisis for the past year and a half, and
with double coffee prices already having to adjust the business to that has been a complete whirlwind. And so, I think that we were really particularly
surprised not only because it's coffee, which the U.S. primarily doesn't grow, but also Vietnam really does admire Trump and has been really willing
to concede to whatever demands that he wants. They are really cooperative with him.
So, I think that we went into the tariff -- the idea of tariffs being relatively a lower --
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR: I am Isa Soares in London. We're going to take you straight to the White House where U.S. President Donald Trump is meeting
with Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni. Let's listen in.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: And highly respected. Everybody loves her and respects her. And I can't say that about many people. And she's become
a friend. And we really have a great relationship between Italy and ourselves. And we talked about trade, we talked about many, many things
during our luncheon, and she'll be saying a few words, but she's a very special person and it's nice to have you with us. Thank you very much.
GIORGIA MELONI, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Thank you for your warm welcome. Thank you for this occasion,
which is a -- April 17. And April 17 marks the anniversary of the agreement that allowed Christopher Columbus who made his trip, and I say to remember
how ancient are our ties, but also to remind that we both shared another fight, which is the fight against the woke and DEI ideology that would like
to erase our history.
[13:45:00]
TRUMP: Sure.
MELONI: And as I know that we share lots of things on tackling illegal migration, on fighting against synthetic drugs, you know, Italy's been one
of the nation that made a plan against Fentanyl, for example. But we have been talking about many bilateral topics and things that we can do
together, about defense, about economic -- about economy, about space, about energy.
Italy will have to increase its LNG imports and also nuclear that we are trying to develop. I think there can be ways to work together. And the
Italian enterprises will invest, as they've been doing for many years, as you know, in the next years, I think around 10 billion.
TRUMP: Yes.
MELONI: That shows how interconnected our economies are. And that's very important, Mr. President. It's not only about Italy, it's about the entire
Europe. The exchange between us is a very big one. Investments, trade, it's a topic that we are discussing in --
TRUMP: That's right.
MELONI: But at the end of the day, look, somebody calls me, I was saying it before, such a Western nationalism. I don't know if it is the right
word, but I know that when I speak about West, mainly I don't speak about geographical space, I speak about the civilization, and I want to make --
SOARES: We are having -- it seems that we are having it -- do we have it?
MELONI: -- for having accepted an invitation to pay an official visit to Rome in the near future and consider possibility in that location to meet
also with Europe. The goal for me is to make the West great again. And I think we can do it together.
TRUMP: We can.
MELONI: And we will keep on working on that. I'm going to close. I want to say only I'm proud of sitting here as -- very good. It's a very good
situation despite -- thank President Trump for having accepted an invitation to pay an official visit to Rome in the, near future and
consider possibility in that occasion to meet also with Europe.
The goal for me is to make the West great again. And I think we can do it together.
TRUMP: We can.
MELONI: And we will keep on working on that. I'm going to close. I want to say only I'm proud of sitting here as prime minister of Italy that today
has very good -- has a very good situation, despite the difficulties, a stable country, reliable country. 1 million more jobs in the last two years
and a half.
TRUMP: Great.
MELONI: Inflation is going down. So, you -- forgive me if I promote a bit my country.
TRUMP: Yes.
MELONI: But you're a businessman and you understand me. So, migration flow is going down 60 percent. So, we are trying to do our best, but I think we
can do it even better together. Also, on Ukraine. I will close, together we've been defending the freedom of Ukraine. Together we can build just and
lasting piece. We support your efforts, Donald.
TRUMP: Good.
MELONI: Thank you.
TRUMP: Thank you very much. And I think we're doing well in that effort, but we want to get it done and we'll see if we can -- we want to save. On
average, think of it, every week, 2,500 people are being killed, mostly soldiers, Russian, Ukrainian soldiers. And if we can save those lives, that
would be a very good thing. And so, we'll see what we can do. And I think we're getting close, but we'll let you know very soon. And you've been very
helpful. I appreciate it. Thank you. Any questions?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, how much longer does Vladimir Putin have to respond to your ceasefire proposal before you put secondary tariffs
or sanctions on Russia?
TRUMP: We'll see what that will be. We're going to be hearing from them this week, very shortly actually, and we'll see. But we wanted to stop --
we want the death and the killing to stop.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, on Jerome Powell, you said that the termination of Jerome Powell cannot not come fast enough. He says he won't
leave, even if you ask him to.
[13:50:00]
TRUMP: Oh, he'll leave if I ask him to. He'll be out there. But I don't think he's -- I don't think he --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- try to do that?
TRUMP: I don't think he's doing the job. He's too late. Always too late. A little slow. And I'm not happy with him. I let him know it and, oh, if I
want him out, he'll be out of there real fast. Believe me. Go ahead, please. Question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you trying to remove him, Mr. President?
TRUMP: Yes. Question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, yesterday Judge Boasberg, in a case against your administration, said the Constitution does not tolerate
willful disobedience of judicial orders. Do you agree with that statement?
TRUMP: Well, you're going to have to speak to the lawyers. We have great lawyers. I can tell you this, we're doing a fantastic job of getting
criminals out of this country who Biden allowed into the country, hundreds of thousands of criminals, murderers, and drug dealers. And I was elected
because of the fact, I would say, maybe that was the number one fact for a lot of reasons. The economy, a lot of things.
But one of the primary reasons I was elected is because I said I'm going to get the criminals that he allowed to come into our country so stupidly
through open borders. I'm going to get them out. And I got a lot of votes, record setting numbers of votes, as you know. We won everything. The
popular vote, all seven swing states. We won everything. And that's what the public wanted. That's what I'm doing. But you'll have to speak to the
lawyers because it's up to them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think of the proposal from France and U.K. about peace mission in the Ukraine with soldiers? And do you think that
Italy should take (INAUDIBLE)?
TRUMP: Well, I think Italy will have to make that determination. But peace missions are always good with me. I'm OK with peace missions. Yes. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, have you discussed what areas of cooperation have you discussed with the Prime Minister vis-a-vis Italy and
the United States and Europe and the United States? And on China --
TRUMP: We discussed it very briefly. No, we're doing very well with negotiations, I think with all countries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have a --
TRUMP: And Scott could tell you a little bit, but we are doing very well. We have a lot of countries that want to make a deal. Frankly, they want to
make deals more than I do. Go ahead, Scott, would you say something?
SCOTT BESSENT, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: We got a process in place. We're working on the big 15 economies first. We had a fantastic meeting with
Japan yesterday. I believe there's been calls with the E.U. already. And then, we have South Korea coming in next week. And I believe India is also
talking -- or that's moving very quickly.
TRUMP: Go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Ukraine, sir. President Zelenskyy has said he has evidence in China is supplying weaponry or ammunition to Russia. Do you
have any evidence along those lines? And also, he said we could see a minerals deal signed this week. Is that --
TRUMP: Well, we have a minerals deal, which I guess is going to be signed on Thursday. Scott, bext Thursday? Soon?
BESSENT: Yes.
TRUMP: And I assume they're going to live up to the deal. So, we'll see. But we have a deal on that. No. I have no comment on that. I have no idea.
That's his statement, not mine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You waived off an Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities, can you comment on that? Is that accurate?
TRUMP: And they say the attack is what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That you waived off an Israeli plan to attack Iranian nuclear facilities?
TRUMP: I wouldn't say waived off. I'm not in a rush to do it because I think that Iran has a chance to have a great country and to live happily
without death. And I'd like to see that. That's my first option. If there's a second option, I think it would be very bad for Iran and I think Iran is
wanting to talk. I hope they're wanting to talk. It's going to be very good for them if they do. And I'd like to see Iran thrive in the future, do
fantastically well.
I know the Iranian people, they're incredible people. Always have been very smart, very energetic, very successful people. And I don't want to do
anything that's going to hurt anybody. I really don't. But Iran can't have a nuclear weapon. It's, you know, pretty simple. It's really simple. We're
not looking to take their industry. We're not looking to take their land. We're not -- all we're saying is, you can't have a nuclear weapon.
The deal that was made with Obama, and that deal would've expired already. It was a terrible deal. It was a -- it was would've expired and -- that
gave them a clear path to a nuclear weapon. I wouldn't have accepted. That's why I terminated the deal. Number one, it was way too short.
You know, when countries are involved, you don't make short-term deals. These are countries with long lives. And I terminated that and it was a
great termination because it didn't allow us to do anything. Once it terminated, you know, what the deal was, it was a terrible deal. It really
-- one of many terrible deals made by the U.S.
[13:55:00]
But no, I want -- I'd like to see Iran thrive, and they can do that, I think, very easily, or they can do it the other way. And the other way is
not going to be good for them. Going to be really bad for them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- going to China and met with many officials there.
TRUMP: Well, Jensen's an amazing guy. He is become a friend of mine. And I don't know, he's a person that's very proud of our country. He loves our
country. I'm not worried about Jensen at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- in contempt, will you take steps to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the United States and put him in front of a judge?
TRUMP: Well, I'm not involved in it. I'm going to respond that by saying you'll have to speak to the lawyers, the DOJ. I've heard many things about
him and we'll have to find out what the truth is. But I will say this, you know, we're -- we were inundated by millions of people, many millions of
people during the Biden administration. They say 21 million. And a big percentage of those are criminal, serious criminals. I'm not saying just
criminal because they came into the border illegally, I'm saying they're criminals at the highest level, murderers.
Many of those people murdered more than one person, and they're on the loose. And I was elected to get rid of those criminals, to get them out of
our country or to put them away, but to get them out of our country. And I don't see how judges can take that authority away from a president.
We've done an amazing job. Tom Homan, Kristi Noem. We have done an amazing job. Nobody can believe the job we've done. Far greater than what I said. I
mean, I got elected on that, but we've done much better. We have, right now, 99 percent border. It's a 99 percent. Nobody's thought that would even
be -- nobody's coming through our border practically.
Two weeks ago, we had nine people come through all for medical reasons. We allowed them, we brought them through because one had a heart attack, one
had something else, and all for medical reasons. We have a great border. We had a great border four years ago, but we have a border now that's even
tighter. And we did that in a matter of weeks.
And no, we have to -- we need to get murderers and drug dealers and people that were in jail for horrible -- you know, they released jails, Giorgia,
from all over the world and released them, not just South America, all over the world, the Congo and Africa, many, many people come from the Congo. I
don't know what that is. But they came from the Congo. And all over the world, they came in, opened their jails, Venezuela, practically all of
their prisoners released into our country. We took them because we had an incompetent administration called the Biden administration.
And to think what they've done to our country -- and I was elected to straighten that out, and I'm doing that, but we have activist judges that
don't want murderers to be sent out of our country. They don't want killers and drug dealers and drug lords and people from mental institutions, they
want them to stay in our country, I guess, I don't know, maybe that's the liberal way, or as they call it nowadays, the progressive way. But I don't
think it's the way that our country believes, and that's why I won in a landslide.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Back on tariffs, Mr. President, you did say that you are confident these deals will be done, but you also said that you're in no
rush. Americans are seeing prices rise. They're seeing it on their bills. How long can they expect that pain to last?
TRUMP: So, they've already seen it get much better because if you were truthful, which you're not, you know, I know you very well, you have
gasoline that hit $1.98, yesterday in a couple of states, you have gasolines way down. The price of oil has dropped substantially. The price
of groceries are substantially down. The price of eggs, you know, when I came in, they hit me with eggs. I just got there. I was here for one week
and they started screaming, eggs, have gone through the roof. I said, I just got here.
I was there for seven days and I hear that eggs have gone through the roof before I got there. And they were screaming at me. The press, the fake news
like you, you're fake. And the fake news are screaming at me like about eggs. I said, I've only been here. Just this is my seventh day. And they
were right. They went up 87 percent and you couldn't get them. They said, you won't have eggs for Easter, which is coming up. Happy Easter,
everybody. You want to have eggs for Easter. And we did an unbelievable job. And now, eggs are all over the place and the price went down 92
percent.
And our commissioner of agriculture, Brooke, has done a --
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