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Amanpour
Interview With Archbishop Of Chicago Cardinal Blase J. Cupich; Interview With Former Reuters Vatican Correspondent Philip Pullella; Interview With Center Of Religion And Culture At Fordham University Director David Gibson; Interview With "Pope Francis: A Man Of His Word" Director Wim Wenders. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired April 21, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Pope Francis, the leader of the Catholic church is dead. We'll get the latest from Vatican City. And reflections from Cardinal Blase Cupich of
Chicago, who will be one of the few people to choose the next pope. Then insight from a reporter who interviewed Francis and was knighted by him.
Plus, religious scholar David Gibson joins me on Pope Francis' moral Authority in a world of strong men. And we look back at Christiane's
conversation with filmmaker Wim Winders about his revealing portrait of the pope as you've never seen him before.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Pope Francis, a voice for the poor and a catalyst for change as the head of the Catholic church has died. The Vatican announced the pope passed away on
Easter Monday the morning after the holiest day in the Christian year.
At 88 years old, Francis was battling poor health in recent weeks, yet managed to make a public appearance on Eastern Sunday where he delighted
crowds at St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS II (through translator): Dear brothers and sisters, Happy Easter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Too sick to read his full speech, an aide delivered it for him. And in his final message to the public, the pope called for a compassion
for migrants and for the end to the wars in Ukraine, Gaza, and Sudan.
Francis will be buried sometime later this week and then a conclave will begin to choose the next leader of the Catholic Church, Cardinal Blase
Cupich of Chicago, will be at the funeral and will also take part in the conclave, and he's joining the program live. Cardinal Cupich, thank you so
much for joining us today. Your thoughts, your reflections on the passing of Pope Francis?
CARDINAL BLASE J. CUPICH, ARCHBISHOP OF CHICAGO: Well, Bianna, first of all, thank you for having me. This morning when I heard the news, I have to
say that I was stunned and saddened. But as I reflect on his life and ministry, especially these last years in which he has served as the
successor of Peter, I come away with a great sense of gratitude that I got to be a part of it and live in a time in which he was pope.
He energized the church to move forward. He gave us a more expansive view of what we could be, especially as he called us to be a field hospital in
the world, to reach out to people who were suffering. But also reminded us that the name of God is mercy. So, from my standpoint, I just have to look
back on these years with a great sense of gratitude that I lived in a time in which he was a pope.
GOLODRYGA: And he was a first -- in so many regards, the first pope from Latin America, the first pope in nearly 600 years to take over after a
retirement of his predecessor and the first pope to take on the name of St. Francis of Assisi, the 13th century saint of the poor.
So, in taking that name, I'm just curious, Cardinal, for you, was that an indication of what his focus of what his priorities would be as pope?
CUPICH: Well, he mentioned that he took that name after one of the cardinals during the conclave, after he was elected, said, don't forget
about the poor. And that stuck with him to the point where it moved and prompted him to choose the name of Francis, who, in fact, was always known
in Italian as the poverello, the little poor one who associated with those who were lowly. Even though he himself came from some wealth and prominence
in the City of Assisi.
[13:05:00]
GOLODRYGA: And as sick as he was, and we of course had covered his stay at the hospital and not knowing whether or not he would actually be discharged
earlier this year from the hospital having such a lengthy stay, the fact that he made it to deliver that speech on Easter Sunday yesterday to
address the masses. He was weak, but he was strong in spirit there for all of those worshipers to see. Just talk about what that says to you, to us,
to Catholics around the world about his conviction to his faith.
CUPICH: Well, I think that, yes, his message was very important and it was important for him to raise his voice on behalf of people who are suffering
from wars and poverty, also who were trying to find a better life as they migrate.
But the other thing that we saw this this Easter day was not just the words -- hearing the words that he gave us, but how he accompanied people even to
the last, where he wanted to have a ride down the Via della Conciliazione in the Vatican Square there to be with people. He wanted them to know that
he was with them. He was a fellow pilgrim with them. And I think that also says much about his legacy. He wanted to accompany people and he told us to
accompany one another because we're all fellow pilgrims.
GOLODRYGA: And he took over at a time when there was great internal strife and division within the church and in the secular world as well. We are
just hours after his passing, but I am curious to get your thoughts on his contribution to be more inclusive, to work on some of the issues that drove
the biggest criticism within the church and from outside as well.
CUPICH: Well, he had the vision of the Second Vatican Council, and that is what, for me, drew me in a very close relationship with him because I
shared that aspiration as well. And the council wanted to make sure that we listened to the joys and the hopes, the griefs and anxieties of people in
this age, and we walk with them.
But also, he gave us an understanding that we have to make sure that people who are suffering have a voice in the world today and are not marginalized.
And so, time and again, he reminded us of that. And even though there is division in the world and even in the church, he told us that time and
again that the lord prayed for unity within the human family before he died. And that is something that we should promote.
GOLODRYGA: Migration and the plight of migrants was near and dear to him through, throughout his time as pope, and even for the decades as we know
before as cardinal. He was a child of migrants, of immigrants, of leaving, fleeing flashes Italy for Argentina.
And a visit to the White House under President Obama, Pope Francis said this, as a son of an immigrant family, I'm happy to be a guest in this
country, which was largely built by such families. Migration is such a hot button issue here in the United States around the world, and it's something
that he tackled head on even when he knew that it could lead to confrontation to some of the world's most powerful leaders. What does that
say about his conviction?
CUPICH: Well, I think that when he spoke to the Joint Session of Congress first time that a pope has ever done that, he raised that issue and he
reminded us Americans, point blank, that we should be on the side of migrants and immigrants because we all are migrants and immigrants here,
and the fruit of those who came across to be in this country.
So, I think that he just asked us to be honest with ourselves and authentic, not to forget our heritage, not to forget our roots, and that
was so very important for him. He wanted to make sure that we lived authentic lives and not gloss over the difficulties that people are
suffering or maybe distance ourselves from those difficulties.
GOLODRYGA: And it's safe to say, he spoke out when he disagreed with world leaders, including the presidents of the United States, specifically
President Trump in his first administration in term, and it appears that he carried that conviction into his second as well. I want to remind our
viewers that in 2016 he traveled to the U.S.-Mexico border calling for compassion and, quote, "to aid those who sought to build only walls and not
bridges, and that those people were not Christian."
[13:10:00]
And then, there was some back and forth, tweets exchanged from the president of the United States. And as you know, now, shortly after his
inauguration, Vice President J. D. Vance who has taken on the Catholic faith in recent years, suggested that Pope Francis was the one who had his
priorities all wrong. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: AS an American leader, but also just as an American citizen your compassion belongs first to your fellow citizens.
It doesn't mean you hate people from outside of your own borders, but there's this old school -- and I think it's a very Christian concept by the
way, that you love your family and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens in your own
country, and then after that, you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And we should note the vice president was very gracious following his meeting yesterday with Pope Francis at the Vatican and
offered his words of condolences after news of his passing. But I'm just wondering, given what you heard there from the vice president how do you
think the pope would've responded to that?
CUPICH: Well, I think that he has always talked about the fact that love is not a zero-sum game, where we run out of the ability to love. And the story
of the Good Samaritan is, I think, our point of reference, that you love the person who's in need. It's kind of much like what my mother said, she
was asked a number of years ago, she raised nine children and she said, do you love any of your children more than others? And she said, only if they
need it.
And so, the Good Samaritan story is, in fact, about a person in need, it wasn't a family member. And so, love is something that has to be shown,
first of all, to those who are in need. And it's not something by which we can exhaust. It's a virtue that is given to us to love everybody.
GOLODRYGA: You'll recall just months after his election back in 2013, he shocked the world by stating something that was viewed as so revolutionary.
And he said, the church must welcome the LGBTQ community and said, quote, "If person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?" And
from there you saw criticism from some of the conservative sections of the church -- I'm sorry, excuse me for a second -- from some of the
conservative sections of the church and that would ultimately lead to criticism from the left and liberals who thought he didn't do enough.
Do you think he managed to walk a fine balance ultimately looking back at his legacy?
CUPICH: I don't think he was necessarily looking for walking a balance. He just wanted to speak the gospel truth. We've always believed that the lord
doesn't exclude anyone and it is not something for us to judge another person. Jesus, time and again, tells his disciples not to judge. So, I
think that it's a matter not of trying to balance things, but of being faithful to the gospel.
GOLODRYGA: I was listening to one eulogy and I'm curious to get your reflection on this interpretation. He refused to defend doctrine for
doctrine's sake. He was opposed to euthanasia, abortion, and same-sex marriage, but he wanted to leave open space for understanding and left open
the door for people who are divorced and remarried to take communion in church. Is that a fair assessment?
CUPICH: Well, I think that the Holy Father -- no, I would say this, that the Holy Father always stayed close to what the church teaches. But what he
did say was that people come at the truth at different paces and God's grace works in their lives in different ways. And that we have to, in some
way, be patient with that, but also, respectful of the place of God and the lives of people, and not to substitute for God.
It's -- he said we have to form consciousness but we don't -- we cannot dominate them. We cannot replace them. And I think that that's where he was
coming from.
GOLODRYGA: Can you talk about his humility and the fact that how he lived as a cardinal, how he lived as a young man, he carried that with him into
the Vatican. He refused to live in the 12-room Vatican apartment, put aside specifically for the pope, and ultimately, lived in a two-room hostel. He
dined in the dining room with everyone else. He paid his own checks at times. That humility, what is the legacy of that he leaves behind?
[13:15:00]
CUPICH: Well, I think his humility was tied to the fact that he was a real human being. He was very tied to his relationships with other people, not
being haughty. You know, people don't know this, but with the staff there at the Santa Marta where he lived, he regularly dined with the staff,
sometimes once a week, because he wanted to get to know the people there. He wanted to be a pastor to them. He didn't like pretense and he was an
individual who really, in a very human way, lived out an authentic life.
GOLODRYGA: And he's someone very few people can say you knew so well and for so many years. As you said, he was human. And you hear stories about
his sense of humor, his passions, his interests. Are there any personal anecdotes that you can share with us, some reflections on your own
exchanges?
CUPICH: Well, he was an individual who always put people at ease with his humor. But he was also -- he could be very serious, but he wouldn't take
himself seriously. And I think that is a trait of an individual who, first of all, realize that people might not at first feel comfortable in his
presence and he wanted to relate to them.
But also, he wanted to take up issues that were very important. And he wanted people to shoot straight with him. I think time and again, he always
wanted to know what was going on and he looked for other ways in which he could find out information.
GOLODRYGA: Well, I know you are headed to Rome soon for his funeral and obviously the conclave that follows. Cardinal Blase Cupich, thank you so
much for your reflections, for your words, for your thoughts. We appreciate it.
CUPICH: Thank you again for having me and for covering this very important story. We lost a real giant here, a great man. But we should be grateful
that he passed our -- he crossed our paths.
GOLODRYGA: Indeed. Well spoken, Cardinal. Thank you so much. Well, now, let's get to the Vatican City and to Ben Wedeman. Ben, you've been
reporting there all day. Just give us a sense of what you've heard from the crowds that have gathered to celebrate Easter, to have just, you know, less
than 24 hours ago, had actually had a chance to see the pope and now are reacting to news of his passing.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Bianna, a lot of the people who are here were here yesterday when the pope appeared on the
balcony, said a few words, a statement by him was read out to the crowd. And then, he went around to St. Peters Square in the popemobile without, of
course, the bulletproof glass that had been the tradition since the early 1980s after Pope John Paul II was the subject of an assassination attempt.
So, they saw -- you know, they saw him yesterday. Today, this morning at 7:35 local time, a.m., according to the Vatican, he passed away. So, people
are really shocked, I mean, shocked in the sense that they saw him yesterday. Today, he is dead. Now, of course, he was, between February and
March, in Rome's Gemelli Hospital for 38 days. According to the doctors who were treating him, he almost died twice from double pneumonia during that
period.
But it was thought two weeks ago, when I was there at the hospital and saw him briefly come out onto the balcony and then drive away in a fiat, a
(INAUDIBLE), it was thought that he was on the mend. In fact, the doctors at the time had told him for the next two months, please rest. But what we
saw yesterday was perhaps his most active public day, in addition to his appearance in St. Peters Square. He did have that brief meeting beforehand
with U.S. Vice President, J. D. Vance.
So, I think the people are shocked. There was a hope that he was, perhaps despite his advanced age, 88 years and his medical condition, that he might
actually come back. But such was not the case. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: No, it was not. And, Ben, we know the Vatican said that he passed away in his apartment. As you noted, he had been ailing for quite a
long period of time. Has there been an official cause of death released by the Vatican yet?
WEDEMAN: No. We understand from the Vatican Press Office that they are hoping this evening to be able to announce the official cause of death. In
fact, in approximately 45 minutes, according to the Vatican Press Office, there will be a ceremony in the chapel of Casa Santa Marta, that hostile,
that guest house where Pope Francis was staying, where the chief medical officer of the Vatican will examine the body, try to determine -- and try
to determine the cause of death.
[13:20:00]
But certainly, he had many problems. He had -- in addition to suffering from double pneumonia, he did have persistent respiratory problems in
recent years. Sciatica, mobility problems. Several years ago, he had abdominal surgery as well. So, certainly, the fact that a man in his -- at
his advanced age and medical condition, not particularly surprising that he did pass away. It's just the fact that he was in the square behind me
yesterday and today dead was a shock for many.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, indeed. Just the symbolism of having been there and making the effort to address the crowd there on the holiest of days on the
Christian calendar just yesterday. So, we know the pope will lie in state for -- in St. Peter's Basilica for several days. Now, cardinals will be
deciding how long, anywhere between five to seven days. And then what happens after that?
WEDEMAN: Well, then there will be a period of nine days of prayer and services commemorating his life. During that time, if there -- they haven't
arrived already, there's approximately more than 250 cardinals who are supposed to attend the funeral and then participate in the conclave should
have arrived in Rome, because according to sort of the new schedule worked out by Pope Francis, within 15 to 20 days of the death of the pope, the
conclave should be held and it should go on no longer than 13 days for those cardinals to elect a pope, a successor to Pope Francis.
GOLODRYGA: And you were there in 2013. I saw the footage when Pope Francis was elected and named pope. And do you turn to your producer saying, who,
who? And now, we look at the lasting impact and legacy he has had all these years now serving as pope on the church and the world. And you'll be there
for us when we have his successor named as well. Ben Wedeman, thank you so much.
And we'll have more breaking news coverage of the life and death of Pope Francis after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: And now, from a working-class neighborhood in Buenos Aires to the top of Vatican City, Pope Francis' life journey was a remarkable one.
Christopher Lamb has this deeper look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A simple good evening from the newly elected Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio from
Argentina, the first Pope ever from the Americas. His choice of the name Francis after the saint known for his poverty and love of nature had never
been used before by a Pope set the tone for a pontificate marked by attention to the poor and a simple way of life.
This pope's home would no longer be the historic apartments, but a simple set of rooms in a guest house on the Vatican grounds. Elaborate papal robes
and jewelry remained in the closet as Francis wore only his white cassock, black orthopedic shoes with a simple pectoral cross.
[13:25:00]
And when he needed his glasses fixed, he hopped in a car and went himself to the optician in Rome. A down to earth style learned on the streets of
Buenos Aires. The one-time night club bouncer took public transportation and always remained a fan of Argentina's San Lorenzo soccer team. His
simple words too had a way of getting to the heart of divisive issues.
POPE FRANCIS, LEADER OF ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH (through translator): If a person is gay and accepts the Lord and has goodwill, well, who am I to
judge?
LAMB (voice-over): It didn't change the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage, but convinced many that he was a pope open to change. He was a
champion of the environment, issuing an encyclical, the highest papal teaching document, to warn of the dangers of global warming and a throwaway
consumer culture in the west that damages our climate and the livelihood of the poor.
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): The misuse and destruction of the environment are also accompanied by a relentless process of exclusion. In
effect, his selfish and boundless thirst for power and material prosperity leads both to the misuse of available natural resources and to the
exclusion of the weak.
LAMB (voice-over): He drove home the point, travelling to the United States, home of gas guzzling SUVs in a tiny Fiat, equally at home with the
poor and powerful. On the lawn of the White House, he made a plea for immigrants.
POPE FRANCIS: As the son of an immigrant family, I'm happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families.
LAMB (voice-over): And at a time marked by a dramatic refugee crisis in Europe, France has tirelessly called on governments and people to not close
their eyes or their borders. And he walked his talk bringing back 12 Syrian refugees on his plane following a trip to the Greek island of Lesbos.
In the difficult terrain of the Holy Land, Pope Francis prayed at the wall dividing Palestinian West Bank from Jerusalem and embraced his Jewish
friends in front of the Wailing Wall. The Pope focused much of his attention to those on the peripheries, as he called it. The outsiders
excluded from society.
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the sick, those in prison.
LAMB (voice-over): He sought to support the churches on those peripheries and far from Rome. The longest foreign trip of his pontificate saw him
travel across Southeast Asia and the Pacific, highlighting the importance of this region for the future of the Catholic Church.
Going to those on the margins was something Francis himself practiced during many moments of his pontificate. Embracing the disabled, washing the
feet of prisoners, installing shower rooms for the homeless around the Vatican.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): One of his characteristics, a characteristic of his entire life, was humility.
LAMB (voice-over): A humility that attracted the world with politicians and stars lining up to meet him at the Vatican. He was not so popular at times
inside the Vatican and among powerful Catholic groups in the United States.
There was a backlash from conservatives upset about his insistence that church teaching must develop along with his biting critiques of clerical
culture. His financial reforms, seeking greater transparency, faced significant difficulties. And the scandal of sex abuse continuing to be the
Catholic Church's biggest struggle.
In the case of Chile, Francis admitted in a letter that he too was part of the problem when every bishop in the country offered to resign in the wake
of sexual abuse scandals there.
Also accused of being part of the problem by his ex-ambassador to the United States, who claimed he told Francis about sexual abuse allegations
against former Washington D.C. Cardinal Theodore McCarrick five years before. And Francis allowed him to continue serving.
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): I will not say one more word on this.
LAMB (voice-over): Francis eventually defrocked the U.S. cardinal and held an unprecedented global meeting of bishops to address the issue. A Vatican
investigation later called into question the claims made by the former ambassador, who was then barred from receiving communion and put into exile
by the church after he rejected the authority of the pope and some key Catholic teachings.
Nevertheless, questions remained about Francis; handling of the abuse crisis.
JOHN ALLEN, EDITOR, CRUX: There is no doubt that the child sexual abuse scandals are the central stain on his legacy. I mean, over and over again,
Pope Francis said the right things. He met with victims. He expressed heartfelt sorrow. He expressed resolve to get this right. But you know,
most critics, many victims would say that wasn't match the policy follow through.
LAMB (voice-over): When the coronavirus pandemic hit in 2020, the image of the pope blessing the world from an empty St. Peter's Square became a
symbol for that desolate time. Francis urged nations to share their vaccines with poorer countries and vaccinated hundreds of homeless and
underprivileged at the Vatican.
[13:30:00]
The following year, during an historic trip to Iraq, the first pope ever to visit the country, Francis stood on top of the rubble in Mosul, once an
ISIS stronghold, and furthered his outreach to the Muslim world by an unprecedented meeting with top Shia Muslim cleric, the reclusive Grand
Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani.
From the beginning of the war in Ukraine in 2022, France was an outspoken advocate for peace. He avoided outright condemnation of Vladimir Putin, but
publicly appealed to the Russian president, begging him to stop for the love of his people, the pope said.
Francis spoke several times by phone with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy during 2022, asking him to be open to serious peace proposals
before the pair met face to face at the Vatican in May of 2023 and October 2024. He made similar appeals for peace during the conflict in the Middle
East, saying that the Israel-Hamas war had descended into terrorism. He insisted that war is always a defeat and said self-defense that is not
proportional is immoral.
France's most important message was one of fraternity, that we are all brothers and sisters, despite our differences. Take care of the earth and
each other, he said. And don't forget to pray for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Christopher Lamb reporting there. Let's turn now to Philip Pilla. He was the first American journalist to interview a pope and was
knighted by Francis in 2021. Welcome to the program, Philip.
PHILIP PULLELLA, FORMER REUTERS VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Pleasure to be here.
GOLODRYGA: We know that Francis has inherited a deeply divided church in 2013 and was facing a number of scandals from within. Your reflections on
how he left the church today.
PULLELLA: Well, this church is now as very similar to American society in the sense that it is polarized. It is polarized between conservatives and
progressives, and we are constantly told those -- not by the Vatican, don't use those words, but it's very difficult not to break it down into that in
-- into those two categories.
The church is very polarized, which is why the election of the next pope is going to be incredibly interesting, to say the least, as the Cardinals
decide whether they want to, as I like to put it, move the pendulum a little bit back towards the center or continue with some of the policies
that that Pope Francis encouraged from the beginning of his pontificate in 2013.
And that will be the key question that faces the cardinals who come to elect him in the next few days and during the conclave that follows after
the funeral.
GOLODRYGA: And he, as we noted in our previous segment, encouraged some of these at the time, more radical, more progressive policies, but didn't
necessarily enact them. And for example, the openness to civil unions, same-sex couples has met with LGBTQ plus families. But same sex
relationships are still considered, quote, "intrinsically disordered." And the Vatican, just a few years ago, once again, reaffirmed that it couldn't
bless same-sex unions. Why do you think he didn't go a step further other than the legacy and the fact that he was the first to acknowledge that if
they are good people, and if there are LGBTQ members who are members of the community, they should be acknowledged?
PULLELLA: Yes, as you said that he did come out in defense of LGBTQ members. And he -- but he did not change any church teaching on homosexual
relations. In other words, so essentially the church teaches that homosexual attraction is not a sin -- homosexual activity is sin. He never
went down the path of changing that.
Why? One of the reasons that he may have decided to sort of hold back is that, that -- on that issue and that -- also on the issue of a female
priesthood it was incredibly divisive in the Anglican church and it really did split the Anglican church and the -- this pope, but also popes before
him, John Paul and Benedict, looked at what happened with the Anglican church agreeing on the ordination of women, agreeing on gay issues, et
cetera, and what happened, it completely divided.
[13:35:00]
Now, when the pope -- recently, the pope's theological chief, when he spoke about blessing, same sex couples, not as a kind of a wedding, but as a sort
of just giving them a blessing, not individual a blessing the -- their activity, but the love that they have for each other, it caused enormous
problems for African bishops, where, as you know, homosexuality in Africa can also lead to the death penalty, people who have been killed because
they're gay in some African countries. And the African bishops were thrown into great difficulty with these statements.
Now, that is a very divisive issue, and I think it's just not Francis, but also Benedict and John Paul before him, seeing what happened in the
Anglican church, didn't want -- did not want the same thing, the kind of breakup that happened in the Anglican church.
GOLODRYGA: And so, perhaps the incremental approach was a strategic one on his part. When talking about his successors, he appointed about 80 percent
of the cardinals will be making that decision. What is the likelihood then that his successor will carry on some of his policies, some of his
priorities in their papacy?
PULLELLA: Right. Well -- yes. Now, as you said, he's -- I believe the specific numbers in there is 135 cardinal electors that is -- that are
under the age of 80. And so, they will be able to go into a conclave to elect Francis' successor. Of those 135, if I'm not mistaken, 108 or 109,
were actually appointed by Francis. The others were appointed, a handful, about a dozen by Benedict and only five by Pope John Paul.
So, one would think that the next pope would logically continue in that direction, but that is not necessarily the case. Also, be -- specifically
also because of what we were talking about before, about the polarized state of the church that possibly someone who brings the pendulum a little
bit back towards the middle might be a better candidate in the eyes of the cardinal electors.
Another thing to keep in mind, and this is really important, is that under Francis, the cardinals around the world had fewer opportunities to get to
know each other personally. There were meetings under previous posts, there were regular meetings on the cardinals, all the cardinals would come to
Rome and have -- and get to know each other. They didn't take place as much under Francis' papacy. And so, they really don't know each other.
So, the general congregation, many of them don't know each other. The general congregations that will begin these meetings before the conclave
will be an opportunity for some of these cardinals to get to know each other for the first time because they haven't actually visited each other's
countries, which is why one of the leading candidates is Cardinal Pietro Parolin, who is the Vatican's secretary of state.
He has traveled the world over and everybody knows him and he also knows that he will -- you know, it's a steady pair of hands and may get liberal
votes as well as conservative votes, whereas other Cardinal candidates, popularly as they're known, may not get both the votes from conservatives
as well as progressives.
GOLODRYGA: And they need a two-thirds majority to elect the next pope as well. And as we know, that could take days for them to come to that
consensus. Can I get you to reflect in these final moments we have together on your own personal interaction and memories with the pope having --
PULLELLA: Sure.
GOLODRYGA: -- had interviewed him, I believe twice, yes?
PULLELLA: Yes, that's correct. Yes. I've covered three popes, John Paul, Benedict, and Francis, and I was clearly closest to him. I don't know, we
just kind of hit it off, I guess. On the plane, I would ask him certain questions and then he liked to joke and he liked to laugh. And I'd done so
many trips with popes that when pope comes to the back section where the press is, you kind of like don't know what to say anymore.
You know, you're a known entity and whatever. And so, I always try and say something funny. And you know, and he liked to laugh. And then I asked him
through an intermediary for the interview, et cetera. And it took place in 2018.
Now, it will sound very, very odd, but we were alone in a room for two hours. There were no handlers, no minders, no press people, no nobody. It
was just the two of us for two hours. And he went off the record with stuff that I will never be able to use, because it was off the record.
[13:40:00]
So, he felt very comfortable with me and I felt very comfortable with him, but he didn't get a free ride in my coverage and neither did the Vatican in
general. And the second time when I asked him for another interview, I was able to get him a message through a trusted source, he called me on my cell
phone after about four or five days, and I said, I got your -- he said, I got your note. And yes. And he said, let's do it in July, et cetera.
And he handled the whole thing by himself. And I was kind of put in a difficult situation because for many -- for a couple of weeks between the
time he said yes and the time the interview took place, he didn't tell anybody, not in the entire communications apparatus until I then told a
couple people that I didn't want to feel burned, and, you know, swore them to secrecy. But that is the way he operated. He would call people directly
if he liked you, he really liked you, and return your calls or return your messages, in my case.
GOLODRYGA: Well, he --
PULLELLA: So, it was quite amazing. I did have a very personal relationship with him in that sense. He felt comfortable with me for one reason or
another, perhaps because I'm an immigrant too.
GOLODRYGA: Well, you clearly made an impression him, that is for sure. And it's always wonderful to hear when people have a sense of humor, one of the
best qualities a person indeed can have. Philip Pullella, thank you so much for joining us.
PULLELLA: Pleasure.
GOLODRYGA: Well, Pope Francis was known as a modernizer and reformer. He was also known for his outspoken approach on humanitarian issues like
climate change, migration, war, and sexual violence. Nadia Murad, who won a Nobel Peace Prize for her effort to end the use of sexual violence as a
weapon of war, posted this about Pope Francis saying, quote, "In every meeting he showed deep compassion and courage. He stood with survivors,
spoke for the voiceless, and gave hope where there was little. I will always carry his kindness with me."
In 2014, Christiane asked the pope about his decision to call slavery and human trafficking a crime against humanity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Holy Father, you played a key role in establishing the Global Freedom Network. You were the
first person to call modern slavery and human trafficking a crime against humanity. As you appeal for this scourge to be eradicated once and for all,
tell us what exactly motivated your passion about this particular scourge?
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): On behalf of all of us and our beliefs and personations, we declare that human slavery in terms of prostitution,
organs, exploitation, and also human trafficking is a crime against humanity.
The victims come from all walks of life, but most times they are the poorest and the most vulnerable of our brothers and sisters. This takes
place in hiding behind closed doors, in private homes, in the streets, in the cars, in factories, in the fields, in fishing boats, and in so many
other places. This takes place both in cities and villages. In villages of the riches and the poorest nations on Earth. The worst is that this
situation is unfortunately becoming worse and worse every day.
I call upon all people in faith and their leaders and their governments, and the companies, I call all men and women of goodwill to provide their
strong support and join this movement against modern slavery in all its forms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And still to come after the break, what happens next? We'll hear from David Gibson, from Fordham University's Center on Religion and
Culture.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:45:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, Pope Francis was seen as a moral authority beyond his 1.4 billion Catholic flock worldwide. In a recent essay for the New York Times
religious scholar, David Gibson wrote, "The Age of Trump Has its Profit, Pope Francis." So, with his death, what happens now. David Gibson joins the
program now from New York.
David, welcome to the program. Good to see you on this day of all days. And I know you've spent time talking about the legacy of Pope Francis and the
outsider role I. That he seemingly gladly took on very comfortably being the first pope from the Americas, the first pope to take on the name St.
Francis of Assisi, the first pope to address a joint session of Congress. So, many differences from his predecessor yet leaving such a lasting
legacy.
What are some of the most poignant points of his legacy in your view?
DAVID GIBSON, DIRECTOR, CENTER OF RELIGION AND CULTURE AT FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Well, I think it goes in two directions. One is inside the
church, which Philip Pullella was talking about so eloquently. And he was such a warm, wonderful person inside the church and for all the people who
knew him, journalists who knew him, who usually are the outsiders themselves, but he was terrific that way.
But as generous and inclusive and open and welcoming as he was, he also -- he was very tough on his own cardinals, his own bishops. He would really
remonstrate with them and really call them out saying, we need to do things differently. He was elected in large part to reform the Roman curia. You
have to remember back in 2013 when Benedict XVI resigned almost -- you know, under a cloud of scandal. The Vatican was -- had all these financial
and sexual scandals that were headlines in the papers. They wanted somebody to clean up the Roman curia. So, they elected Jorge Mario Bergoglio, a
tough Argentine Jesuit to do that.
But he came in, and he said, we can't just reform the curia, we have to reform the whole church. We have to reform ourselves. A very Ignatian
message. He's a Jesuit. He was the first Jesuit to become elected pope as well.
So, there was that element. But then on the outside, again, climate change, income inequality, protecting democracy, he was a champion for so many in
the world who are looking to an alternative to the kind of Trumpist national populism that is sweeping the globe.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. You told Christiane recently that he actually was the antithesis of the new Trump era. Can you go into more detail about why that
is your belief?
GIBSON: Well, he's really -- he's been so outspoken. He believes that everybody needs to have a role. Have a say. Again, the Catholic church --
this is a bit of an irony. You know, the Catholic church 50, 80 years ago was not seen as a beacon of enlightenment. But now, it really has been
since the 1960s and the reforms welcoming religious freedom, welcoming people, protecting human rights, human dignity for everyone. And that has
been Pope Francis' message that he's pushed out.
He's also been a great champion of politics. He likes what he calls a better kind of politics, getting in there, really horse trading. He likes
to tell politicians, look, it's a kind of a martyrdom to be a politician. He said, you have to get your hands dirty. He said, but that's why you go
to confession at the end of the day. And that's the kind of thing -- you know, that's the kind of thing he needs -- there needs to be horse trading.
We need to work for the common good. That was his message, his thrust. That's the Catholic belief, not tribalism, not individualism, not
libertarianism, working for the common good.
GOLODRYGA: And he was very outspoken about a need to end the ongoing wars that have been raging, whether that be in Gaza, Ukraine, Sudan. Sadly, he
did not live to see the day when any of these major conflicts would come to an end. He was also criticized by some who thought that he didn't condemn
Russian -- Russia's aggression and invasion strongly enough or Vladimir Putin strongly enough. We know that he met with families of hostages from
Israel on October 7th, and also, from families of civilians who had been killed in the war in Gaza. Talk about his legacy as attempting to make
peace in so many wars.
[13:50:00]
GIBSON: Yes, and it was a complicated legacy, as you say, because, you know, we're in a zero-sum world where someone has to win and someone has to
lose. There can be no cohabitation, no kind of getting along, and that's what he was after. He wanted people to make peace among themselves. He
wanted -- you know, he didn't -- he was -- he said he would go dialogue with Putin at any time. He saw both sides of a conflict. He wanted peace.
He wanted an end to the suffering. He wanted an end to war.
Most people want to see one side win and the other side lose, and that's his message, which is calling on both sides to compromise was not terribly
welcome. It's a different world than it was when I first went over to the Vatican in the 1980s. I was working at Vatican Radio. Pope John Paul II was
pope. Remember those days? We had an East and a West. You had the Berlin wall. It was black and white, the Cold War. Well, Pope John Paul helped end
that Cold War, helped bring down the Berlin Wall. But now, we're in a whole different world of kind of tribal conflicts, conflicts within nations and
among nations. It's much more complex.
And in a way, Pope Francis was a prophet for that world. He talked about, we have to be artisans, personal artisans of peace. Peace is handcrafted.
We have to make it by making peace with our brother and sister. It's not about geopolitics, it East versus West anymore, it's about internal
conflict and that's -- again, that gets to a change of heart.
GOLODRYGA: Another question will be, can his successor -- will his successor choose to carry on his legacy? That is something we will see in
the weeks and months and years to come. David Gibson, thank you so much for joining the program.
GIBSON: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, so significant was Pope Francis' desire to extend an arm to the world that not long after he became pope. The Vatican invited award-
winning filmmaker Wim Wenders to make a documentary about him.
Known for films like "Paris, Texas," and "Wings of Desire," Wenders was given four afternoons of unprecedented access to the pontiff. The result,
"Pope Francis: A Man of His Word." Just after its premier at the Cannes Film Festival in 2018, Wenders joined Christiane to speak about creating
his portrait of the pope.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: This film that you've done has got great reviews in Cannes where you debuted it. But the real question is how do you get such access to a
pope? I mean, we can't for love nor money?
WIM WENDERS, DIRECTOR, "POPE FRANCIS: A MAN OF HIS WORD": Yes. I wonder myself now, how that can possibly have happened. You see it was not in my
life's plan. One day I got a letter by the Vatican, would you be inclined to talk with us about a film involving the pope. And that was amazing,
almost too good to be true. I truly admire his work and I think he is one of the great leaders of our world today.
AMANPOUR: What specifically about him do you love the most?
WENDERS: You see, I had nine years of Latin. So, for once in my life, it paid off because they introduced him before we saw him. And in Latin said
he had chosen the name of Franciscus. And I was flabbergasted because for me, St. Francis was a hero of humanity and the only saint I could, so to
speak, put a name on, face on because he stood for a few things that were amazing.
He stood for a radical solidarity and identification with the outcasts and the poor. He stood for completely a new relationship between man and
nature. And I figured that was the most necessary thing today. St. Francis and the name of Francis stands -- he'd be the first ecologist today and St.
Francis stands for a new effort of peace between the religions.
AMANPOUR: So, let's pick up on that because, obviously, this Pope distinguished himself on that very environmental level you talk about in
his Encyclical, which was a tremendous document. And he has also spoken over and over again about refugees, about the poor, about all the proper
values that he thinks we should hold.
Here is a little clip of an interview that you did with him. We will play it and I will talk about it on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): The way to escape consumerism, this corruption, this competitiveness, this being enslaved to money, is the
(INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: I can even see you miming his words -- you're so familiar with it - as you were listening to him.
WENDERS: I know every word by-heart, yes.
AMANPOUR: So, what was the most surprising things that you heard from him?
WENDERS: There were many surprising things because he didn't hesitate to answer any question. He didn't exclude any question. All the answers were
spontaneous and immediate. Some really at length and thorough. And he got very upset sometimes. My question about pedophilia. He got very angry.
Really angry. And you realized if only he could, he would do so much more right now right away. And you feel that in the conversation. That was a
completely fearless man in front of me. And it's very rare to see that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: I bet a lot more people will now be watching that film again upon the news of the pope's passing.
Well, that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
