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Amanpour
Interview with Former Irish President Mary McAleese; Interview with Former Senior Adviser to President Obama David Axelrod; Interview with IKAR Senior and Founding Rabbi and "The Amen Effect" Author Rabbi Sharon Brous. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired April 23, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Mourners from around the world pay respects to Pope Francis who's now lying-in state at St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican. The former Irish
president, Mary McAleese, on the importance of continuing Francis' Church reform. And her own personal fight for progress.
Plus, Trump does another U-turn to calm markets and people spooked by his trade war. Former Obama adviser, David Axelrod, here in London is getting
an earful wherever he goes. Then Pope Francis' extraordinary relationship with a small church inside Gaza. Jeremy Diamond reports on the daily phone
calls that kept up wartime morale. Plus, Trump's fight against antisemitism has become fraught for many Jews, those are the words of Rabbi Sharon
Brouse who joins me to discuss America's crackdown on higher education.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Pope Francis will now lie in state at St. Peter's Basilica until his funeral on Saturday. Crowds are flocking to pay their respects, and this
marks a pivotal moment for the Catholic Church, to continue Pope Francis reforms or revert to strict pre-Francis traditionalism.
U.S. President Donald Trump says he and the first lady will go to the funeral announcing, we look forward to being there. The event may become
more than just a farewell to the pope, as assembled world leaders have a lot to discuss with the U.S. president.
Trump's strong man winner take all attitude is in stark contrast, of course, to Pope Francis who was driven by compassion for the weakest, the
poorest, the most vulnerable in society. And he is a native of Argentina. He's ordered seven days of mourning following the pontiff's passing, that
is the president of Argentina, has done that.
CNN's David Culver is there touring through the pope's childhood neighborhood and speaking to some of his longtime friends.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Even before he passed away, Pope Francis was memorialized here in his hometown, specifically in
Flores, the neighborhood in Buenos Aires that he was raised. You can see tributes once again. We see this all over, flowers left outside his
childhood home. And they've even got the plaque. This is the house where Pope Francis lived.
This is where Pope Francis went to elementary school, and it's still a school. You got students who are leaving for the day.
Pope Francis' friendships from even secondary school onward, some 75- plus years ago, lasted for decades. And today, we actually met up with one of
his friends, Oscar Crespo.
He says he remembers a moment where they were in religion class and the instructor said, those who have not had your first communion, please stand.
And there were two people who stood up. It was Oscar and another individual, and it was offered up that one of the other classmates would
take them to have their first communion. And that person was Jorge Bergoglio.
[13:05:00]
Pope Francis' legacy stretches across this community, and even imprinted on the ground. In just a few blocks from his childhood home, the church he
went to as a kid and a teenager. This is the Basilica De San Jose De Flores, but it's what happened inside that really stands out. It says
inside this confessional on September 21, 1953, Jorge Mario Bergoglio. Had the call from God to become a priest.
And now that confessional has become a pilgrimage site of sorts. Throughout the day, people coming in to leave flowers, candles to offer prayers. Just
to remember.
But it's not just Catholics or even Christians mourning the loss. Omar Abboud, a Muslim, worked alongside then-Cardinal Bergoglio and a Jewish
counterpart to create the Interreligious Dialogue Institute. For more than 25 years, they built a deep friendship.
When was the last time you spoke with him?
OMAR ABBOUD, FRIEND OF POPE FRANCIS AND PRESIDENT, BUENOS AIRES INSTITUTE OF INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE: This year, January 23rd.
CULVER: What did you talk about?
ABBOUD: Many times, A.I.
CULVER: A.I.?
ABBOUD: Yes.
CULVER: Artificial intelligence?
ABBOUD: Yes.
CULVER: Omar has been reluctant to do interviews since the pope's passing.
Omar, it's not -- it's not lost on me that the world has lost a pope. But. But you lost a friend.
ABBOUD: He used to be a good friend. And all -- we will miss him. Really? Really a -- words are not enough, okay? Words are not enough. If you want,
I prefer to stop.
CULVER: Yes.
ABBOUD: Please?
CULVER: So, it might sound abrupt there as Omar was ending the interview, but it wasn't personal. For him it was a battling of the emotions that were
surfacing, and they were doing that several times throughout our conversation with him.
And because as the world is mourning the loss of the pontiff, for him, it's a dear friend. And so, he didn't want to make the focus about him. Instead,
he wanted to keep it focused on the Holy Father. And for that reason, he needed to step aside before he realized the emotions were surfacing too
strongly.
I asked him if he was going to be able to go to the funeral. He said he, a local rabbi, and another Catholic priest plan to travel to Rome, but
they'll simply go and personally pay their respects in St. Peter's and then leave before the funeral starts. For them it's the best way to privately
remember their friend.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And that is a heck of a journey of faith, those friends are going to make. Mary McAleese, the former Irish president and a Catholic
herself, praised the pope's devotion and clear moral authority, and she's been an outspoken advocate for even more church reform. So, welcome to the
program from Ireland. Nice to see you. Where are you exactly?
MARY MCALEESE, FORMER IRISH PRESIDENT: I'm a Roscommon.
AMANPOUR: There you go.
MCALEESE: Not a place -- with tourists, but close to the very beautiful town, probably one of the nicest towns in Ireland, Carrick-On-Shannon,
which is right on the Shannon as indeed I am.
AMANPOUR: All right. I'm going to get back to some of beauty of Ireland and your industries in a moment. But first, I want to ask you, you know, he
has been described as more and more of a lonely moral voice, a lonely sort of public moral authority. And I just wonder, you know, what you say now,
how you're feeling about the passing of this pope?
MCALEESE: Well, I'm not surprised by it. I firmly was expecting it frankly, when I -- particularly given his immediate health history. And
when I saw him on the balcony on the day of the resurrection on Easter Sunday, I realized immediately that here was a man who was quite determined
to spend his very last breath blessing people and getting that message, that Urbi et Orbi message to the people. A message about peace, about the
poor, about the marginalized, about our -- essentially, I always reduce his -- how he speaks to two really important emphatic things, it doesn't really
matter what context he's talking, but he reduces everything, really, to the sacredness of the human person and the sacredness of the earth, and then,
our common responsibility for protecting those and vindicating and embracing those two big responsibilities.
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So, no, was I surprised by his death? I was not, frankly. I was only surprised that he survived that long trek, not just around the Piazza as he
has done before, but all the way down the (INAUDIBLE) and back up again.
And I was watching it almost, to be perfectly frank, horror-stricken because realizing how ill he was the doing of that certainly -- well, as we
know it was not good for his health. Probably, in the end, was what lay between him and the stroke that he had, but he didn't care. He had been
told by his doctors to go and take two months -- told quite emphatically that he needed two months of rest.
And I can imagine -- he was a gruff man, you know, and there was a kind of a rough side to him, to an untutored side at times. And I would say his
attitude was, to heck with that, I have a job to do and I'm going to die both in the job and on the job, which is exactly what he did.
AMANPOUR: Tell me, you've clearly met him, right? Because you say he was a bit of a gruff guy and a bit (INAUDIBLE). Tell me about your interactions
with him.
MCALEESE: I can't say -- to say that I met him would be a really gross exaggeration. I've been in his company three times. The first was on the
day that he was elected. I was standing right underneath the balcony where Cardinal Tauran and that quiet little voice announced Habemus Papam, and
that was our first introduction to the new Pope Francis. So, I was there in the square for that, that was quite an occasion.
But on the other two occasions that I was in the same space as him, I will -- after I left office back in 2011, I went back to student life. I became
a student again and I became a student in the Jesuit University in Rome called the Pontifical Gregorian University. And he invited all the students
and the staff from the Gregorian to meet him in the hall, Paolo saxtone, the big hall at the Vatican.
And we did -- now, that's when you began to see that he would -- he could be gruff, you know. I was an elderly lady, which meant that I was one of
very few women in the room, the rest were nearly all peace seminarians, a few bishops, lecturers, of course, but quite a lot of Jesuits.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
MCALEESE: But a lot -- most of them were clerics or religious of one sort. And he wasn't -- he was quite brisk with them. He said, you know, you're
not -- to be little princes. Get out of your castles and out of your palaces and go meet the poor.
AMANPOUR: Well, that's what he did. And now, we've lost you and I had a lot more to ask you. Hopefully we'll try to get you back in a moment.
Later in the program, we are going to take a look at Pope Francis' special relationship with a church in Gaza. And I'll talk to Rabbi Sharon Brous
about Trump's crackdown on colleges in the name of anti-Semitism. We're going to take a short break now. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Let's bring back McAleese, the former Irish president now. So, just before the break, we were talking about Francis' legacy. I just want
to read a little bit about what you wrote in The Irish Times today. You said, the sad reality is that Francis talked a good story for the
journalist down at the back of the plane, but when it came to putting pen to paper, to change magisterial teaching, he took the timid path and left a
flip-flopping perplexing legacy, which could yet transform into 11 possibly or possibly not.
[13:15:00]
So --
MCALEESE: it depends.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But you -- so, you are one of those Catholics who are left wanting, that's because you are much more progressive than even the
progressive reforms that that he did or the attitude of more liberal reform.
MCALEESE: He wasn't really. When you summarize everything, he wasn't a reformer in the sense of changing church teaching. He changed virtually
nothing. With the exception -- the noble exception of capital punishment, which he took off the statute books as it were in the Catholic church. That
was good. Pope John Paul had initiated that process and Francis finished it.
But in relation to major changes, in relation to dogma, absolutely not. I mean, it's only little over a year ago that in relation to women priests
that only did he say they couldn't happen, but he also said that the theology in which they were based was rather imperfect. And while it was
still being worked out, there was that -- we, the faithful, that's people like me, we must accept it, and we were not allowed to publicly contradict
it.
Now, what that tells me is here was an old school pope who'd never read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which says that I and every other
human being, but by virtue of being human with freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, freedom of opinion, freedom of expression, but not in
Catholic Canon law.
We have, according to Catholic Canon law, we have an obligation to obedience to the teachings of the church. Now, that's difficult where you
disagree with those teachings, and there are quite a number of teachings that are worth disagreeing with because they are based on an absence of
human rights. And also, a failure to fully interrogate issues. The issue -- the fundamental issue of where do -- where is the place and the role of
women in the church.
AMANPOUR: Well, can I just --
MCALEESE: In terms of --
AMANPOUR: -- ask you -- can I just ask you about that? Because it's clearly something that troubles and interest many, many Catholic women.
Apparently, just before he died, he left instructions that the process to allow women to be deacons get started. Do you think that is a -- well,
that's the first step?
MCALEESE: I hadn't heard that. That is news to me. I would be surprised by that, but because there are now three reports that have been lying on his
desk for quite some time that he's never published. But if that is the case, that would be quite good news.
On the other hand, it is just the diaconate, and I don't quite know -- I don't know if he's got -- if you go down that road of ordination to the
diaconate, why wouldn't you go the whole way to ordination, to the priesthood? That bothers me that you would put a wall between those two
things. But that said, it's a small step, yes.
But I'm not even talking about ordination to the diaconate or to the priesthood, I'm talking about the exclusion of all women, that's 700
million women in the church who make a huge contribution to the church, from all decision making and in particular, the formulation of teachings.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
MCALEESE: Teachings made by celibate men who are invariably bishops. Now, that's problematic and that's never been addressed. That bothers me because
there's 1.4 billion people in this church. Many of them really good researchers, really good intellectuals and academics. Give them the job and
they could very easily work out the damage inflicted by misogyny, but also more importantly, the potential of the church once misogyny evaporates.
AMANPOUR: So, President McAleese, you know, you are giving voice to, you know, what a lot of people do believe, clearly, and certainly a lot of
Catholic women. But then there's the other side, and we are led to believe that there's a battle for who's going to be the next pope. Will it be a
more traditionalist, in the Pope Benedict, you know, mold or now? And so, where do you think this is?
Because for sure Pope Francis talked a different game and, you know, did leave the door open for -- as a bridge, so to speak.
MCALEESE: You have to understand the door had already been kicked open, and indeed the windows too, by the faithful, by the people. There was --
when he came in as pope, there was already a massive churn within the church. People leaving in frustration. Obviously, the scandals had
literally scandalized a lot of people, but even long before that, going back to Paul VI and humanae vitae and the ban on artificial contraception
and then, of course, the massification of education, particularly in the West produced a much more incisive and intellectually astute laity who
started to have their voice. So, that was the churn that he inherited.
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So, the doors were already being kicked open, and I think one of his strengths was that he managed to look like he was dealing with that, that
he managed to look like he -- and just -- and I think in relation to women, in relation to LGBTIQ, he said certain things that helped to keep the pot
simmering without actually -- you know, without actually producing something a stew that was edible in the end. But it's in progress.
Now, you're quite right to point out here we are, and there, there are 130 odd men going into the -- well, actually there'd be over 250 going into the
Conclave of whom 130 odd will have a vote. And they'd probably choose someone from within that 130. They could choose from a much wider realm, of
course, but they almost invariably, with only one exception, I think, they have -- they choose from within that. Now, that's a very, very small pool,
and it's not particularly deep. It's not very exciting.
You take the whole of Africa, for example, the African cardinals that are there. Some people talk about an African cardinal, and it is true the
church is growing exponentially in Africa, but one of the problems with Africa is it has yet to deal with the issue of clerical abuse. Why? It
denies that it exists in Africa.
I heard the Polish bishop saying that some years ago how wrong they were, the Italians, how wrong they were. Indeed, in Ireland, there was a time
when it was -- we were in denial, how wrong the church here was and what a lesson we've learned. So, it seems to me unlikely that the pope would come
from Africa and.
Western Europe is hugely problematic because the church is in an existential crisis. My own personal choice, if I had a choice, which I
don't obviously, I haven't got a vote, but I would love for it to be the Asian cardinal, Cardinal Tagle who is in the mode -- mold, rather, of
Francis, but a lot more courageous in many ways.
He has -- he's never allowed the idea that he might be pope get in the way of what he said. A lot of people sit on the fence. A lot of people are
trimmers. They trim their sails to suit the wind, the prevailing wind. So, it's hard to find people who are really, I would call, you know, very
expressive of their true views, unless they happen to be really very, very right-wing and then you do hear them.
But you don't really hear the liberal voices so much. They tend to be much more muted. I like Cardinal Tagle. I admire and respect him. Cardinal Zuppi
from Bologna, admire and respect. He's a Roman. So, if they were looking for an Italian.
But you know, there aren't that -- the -- put it like this. The list is very short and a number of them are also problematic because they have
pasts that probably, you know, have things that need still to be scrutinized. And they may not come out of it that well.
AMANPOUR: All right. I. President Mary McAleese, thank you very much indeed for your reflections. Thank you. We did in fact interview Cardinal
Tagle. So, we're very happy that he's in the running. Thanks so much.
Now, to the United States and a moment of reckoning over what America stands for these days. Donald Trump, not yet in office for a hundred days,
is turning the country more inward, gutting foreign aid, slapping tariffs on even its closest allies. The IMF says Trump's trade war will slow the
global economic forecast for this year and next year, and polls show that his support on the economy is at its lowest rating ever.
Do Democrats see an opportunity here? David Axelrod knows democratic strategy better than most. He was President Obama's senior adviser. He
joined me here in the studio on a visit to London.
David Axelrod, welcome to the program.
DAVID AXELROD, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Great to be here.
AMANPOUR: So, you are here in Europe, in the U.K. You are the preeminent American political strategist, Democratic strategist. What are you hearing
from people here now about this moment in time?
AXELROD: I think confusion, some disappointment and a lot of questions about is this the new normal or are we going to go back to some sort of
relationship that that is more familiar? I'm also hearing that people are not assuming that and they're already thinking about what comes next, which
is not good for the United States.
AMANPOUR: In that --
AXELROD: What comes next in terms of how arrangements are made, how trade relationships happen --
AMANPOUR: That might cut out the United States?
AXELROD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Might be forced to cut out the United States.
AXELROD: Yes. And I think that is a concern. You know, the United States has benefited from -- Donald Trump has the idea that somehow the United
States has been terribly disadvantaged by its relationships in the world, and that the world is sponging off of the U.S. But it's been a mutually
beneficial relationship.
And, you know, just think about, the dollar, you know, as the sort of default currency of the world and all the other benefits that have accrued
to the United States because there was trust in the United States.
AMANPOUR: So, to one of their questions, there may be an answer. I'm just going to posit it out there. Of course, things can change from second to
second, but are we going to go back to more of a normal relationship? Already Donald Trump has seen the markets. He has already said, I have no
intention of firing Jerome Powell, the chairman of the Fed, because of what all his previous words did to the markets.
Then he said, I'm not going to play hardball with China. And the 145 percent tariff obviously is not going to stay, but they need to make a good
deal. And Scott Bessent, who's going to be talking, has said a trade war with China is unsustainable. So, that, many people are describing as a
blink and at the very least a U-turn.
Did you have to deal with those? Because I'm not talking about in that sort of situation, but, you know, dealing with people's fears, I mean --
AXELROD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes?
AXELROD: Well, you know, we -- I was always very sensitive when I was talking to you and others when I was working for President Obama, to the
fact that my words could have tangible impacts around the world because people would interpret that I was speaking for the president of the United
States, and certainly, his words could have those implications.
And Donald Trump doesn't have those same fears. I mean, he -- it goes directly from his head to the world without an editorial function.
AMANPOUR: No. It goes from his gut, he says it.
AXELROD: Yes. Yes. OK. But he is an intuitive improvisational person and has been throughout his life, and that has served him well. But as he's
learned, particularly in this tariff discussion, when you improvise, you can create enormous lurches in the markets that can have really tangible
and destructive impact.
AMANPOUR: I mean, already have. Trillions of dollars have been lost off American, you know, capitalization and all the rest of it. And obviously,
Xi has not blinked and he's just standing firm. So, I want to get to this issue in terms of American reaction at home. Donald Trump's poll ratings
are coming down but by no mean are they collapsing.
AXELROD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And -- but on the economy, which is why he was elected mostly and immigration, they're quite low right now, or lower than they were. He
is done no major legislation, you know, since in the 100 days, but in a similar period of time when they also had congressional support, the Biden
administration worked with Congress to negotiate major economic bills, infrastructure, environment, high tech manufacturing support, signed them
into law, child poverty things, all of that kind of stuff.
And yet, Trump still gets a lot more credit with all of this economic chaos than the Biden administration did for actual economic legislation for
working in middle class.
AXELROD: Yes. Well, first of all, I think that Biden had the misfortune of having to govern through a pandemic. And so, you know, oftentimes it is
what people feel. You can present tangible facts that, you know, here are the things we've done. But there was a pervasive sense throughout the
pandemic and after the pandemic that largely driven by inflation, not just in the U.S. but all over the world that things were -- it was harder.
Things were harder. It was harder to get by.
We've had, you know, a huge housing shortage, that's been an issue. There were just day-to-day costs that accrued to people, and the president took
the brunt of the blame for that, though inflation was a global challenge. And the impression was abetted by his age and his appearance that he was
just being overrun by events.
AMANPOUR: You've said -- I've heard you say that Donald Trump is the best salesman in your memory, in our lifetime.
AXELROD: Well, I think in -- you know, one of the best in American political history.
AMANPOUR: But does that -- is that essentially what -- not what it's all about, but a huge percentage of where the success is? Because, clearly,
President Biden was not a great salesman. He was not a good storyteller at all.
AXELROD: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Nor any of his administration.
AXELROD: And look, there was a lack of energy that was palpable and -- that hurt him. And now, here comes Donald Trump. No, he hasn't passed
legislation to -- you know --
AMANPOUR: Why do think he has -- he has both houses of Congress. Why is all this executive work?
[13:30:00]
AXELROD: Well, he has both houses of Congress, but he has a very narrow margin in the House. He's got you know, the filibuster to deal with in the
Senate. And I think their notion was to test the limits of executive authority and do as much by executive order as possible. And that's what
he's done.
And honestly, there's been a lot of action. You know, think about, you know, someone breaking a billion -- you know, in billiards, breaking the
balls, they're going everywhere. And so, there's a sense that something's happening. And in a country where people felt events were overrunning us
and the president wasn't in control, now comes this guy who's moving a lot of things around.
You know, the test will be, at the end of the day, do people feel like their lives are better because of it? Are there costs coming down? Some of
the things he's doing are actually driving costs up.
AMANPOUR: And they say maybe more inflation if he's --
AXELROD: I mean, one of the reasons I think you see him going after Chairman Powell is I think he's looking for people to blame.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But he switched on that again.
AXELROD: He did. Only because of the markets.
AMANPOUR: Right. But it's always only because of the markets. That's what happened April 9th when he did the 90-day pause.
AXELROD: But with Donald Trump, there's always another day. And you know, everyone in politics, everyone in business, every world leader wakes up
with some degree of dread as they check to see what he posted that night.
AMANPOUR: Here across the Atlantic Ocean, whether it's in Britain, whether it's Europe, Africa, Asia, wherever you look, people are not just saying,
oh, Donald Trump. People are saying America's reputation is shot to an extent, and people are asking, what is it with the American people? What do
they stand for? Because I think, you know, we've always been told over here that you are the exceptional nation. That you have brought us peace and
prosperity, rules of the road you know, all that world order that American created for the benefit of pretty much itself and the world.
But it's not just the economy, it's the mass deportations, it's the crackdown, academic freedom. It's going after the media. It's no due
process. Who are the American people today? What is the electorate?
AXELROD: Well, look, I think the -- you know, I --
AMANPOUR: They voted for this.
AXELROD: I mentioned this when we've been together before. I'm the son of a refugee and I'm very grateful to our country and very proud of our
country for all the reasons you mentioned. And one of the things that concerns me is that the things that make America exceptional are the fact
that we are a beacon to people around the world, strivers from all over the world who've come and strengthened our country.
You know, research scientists and others who have made us the technological and scientific hub of the world. The rule of law, you know, all of these
things and all of them are under assault here, and that is disquieting to me and I think to many Americans.
The thing is that people first judge through the prism of their own life experience, and a lot of Americans have been alienated about how their path
has moved along even in the times of great prosperity. And there's a frustration. There's a frustration with government.
Christiane, we did -- I am the founder of the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago. We did a poll there a couple years ago as part of a
conference we did on disinformation, and we gave people sort of agree- disagree statements as part of that poll. And one of them was a government is corrupt and rigged against people like me. 56 percent of Americans said,
yes, that's -- I agree with that. That is a warning sign.
And frankly, to my -- to Democrats, my fellow Democrats, I would say that's something to pay attention to. If you're the party of -- who believes that
government is a tool for progress then you ought to be concerned about that and ask yourself and investigate, why do people feel that way?
AMANPOUR: OK. So, concerned about that, yes, but also concerned about how an opposition actually is an opposition. The Democrats are now in the
opposition, but they are viewed as being, you know, pretty much shellshocked and unable to have any kind of coordinated response.
AXELROD: Well, we've never actually seen what we've seen in the last 90 days. I mean, Donald Trump has basically, through the use executive orders
and actions, has started a bunch of -- he's lit a bunch of trees on fire. Democrats have had a hard time knowing where the hose should go.
AMANPOUR: Correct. And we're going to get to that. Because to be fair he telegraphed it loud and clear, Project 2025, which he denied, but which was
there for everybody to read, told us exactly where this was going. Of course, even those of us who are observers are amazed by the speed and the
--
AXELROD: Well, it's unprecedented.
AMANPOUR: Unprecedented. That's true. But I want to get to this. For instance, USAID and the cuts on USAID are very harmful. They harm America's
soft power and they harm the people overseas who depends on them.
[13:35:00]
You told Democrats to quit whining about that issue and stop fighting on that issue. But I want to ask you this, because there seems to be a dispute
between Democrats, important arms of the Democratic Party. Governor Newsom saying, you know, trying to talk to all the far-right people on his podcast
and saying this and that. You've got AOC and Bernie Sanders out because Democrats are apparently furious at their leaders and want a populist
revolt. And you said this thing. So, what is the strategy for a united response?
AXELROD: Well, first of all, let me just say one thing. I believe that the dismantlement of American foreign aid will turn out to be one of the worst
foreign policy decisions, certainly of my lifetime, maybe of the entire history of the country, because for a very small investment, which is 1
percent or less of federal budget, you know, you have enormous impact in terms of preventing disease and terrorism and so many things that
ultimately affect. Americans forget about the humanitarian aspects of it, which I value very much.
But -- and the goodwill that you squander. There are tangible impacts of this that we will be felt downstream, but most Americans believe that 30
percent of the budget goes to foreign aid. And so, the question is where do you make the fight? You certainly should resist this and fight it where you
can, in the Congress, in the courts and so on. But in terms of communications, what is it -- what is the story you're trying to tell?
AMANPOUR: Well, we want to ask you, because you are the president maker.
AXELROD: I was hoping you would answer.
AMANPOUR: If they're -- the next presidential candidate on your party, what do you tell them to do? Let's say they've declared themselves now.
AXELROD: I think that the party of working people ought to think deeply about working people and what it is that people are so -- are struggling
with in their lives. And you know, what it is, too often Democrats approach voters with a notion that we know what's best for you and we're here to
help you become more like us and more successful and so on. The sort of college educated, metropolitan, Democratic Party. And it is a message
that's, I think, taken as disdainful.
The big thing to think about is what big structural changes do we have to make, to make good on an American dream that a lot of Americans don't
believe is real anymore. And I think that's the fundamental task of the Democratic Party.
Secondly, let me just make this one point. Donald Trump is here. He's not going to be here forever, no matter what he thinks. He's not going to be
here forever. But he is -- there's going to be a big blast radius from what he's done. And a lot of things have been -- will be torn down that are very
important and a lot of things will be torn down that needed to be reformed.
And the question for the -- I think for the Democratic Party is, what are you going to build in its place? Are you going to simply restore what was
there, even though people didn't feel they were being well served by a lot of what was there, or are you going to build something new that's more
resistant to corruption, that's more responsive to everyday people, that is more agile and uses the tools of the 21st century? That, I think, is what
Democrats ought to be thinking about instead of being on their back foot, be on the front foot and think about what the future is that the -- that we
can build as a country after the hurricane.
AMANPOUR: Yes, that's interesting, after the hurricane. I want to ask you this. A lot of people say it's going to be up to the Republicans, in fact,
Republicans in Senate, maybe business people, and in the very powerful right-wing conservative media sphere, which is podcasts and all these, you
know, right-wing things.
So, to that point, Joe Rogan. He has started talking about some of these issues, particularly --
AXELROD: Yes, he has. Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- the mass deportation. We're going to play this soundbite.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOE ROGAN, HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE": The problem with things that are going in a radical direction. And then, there's an overcorrection. So,
the overcorrection is lack of due process. The overcorrection is like, round them all up, ship them to jail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's dangerous, Joe.
ROGAN: That's dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's dangerous.
ROGAN: That's dangerous. That's -- we got to be careful that we don't become monsters while we're fighting monsters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: How important is it, not you, the politicians or the strategists or the experts or the academics, but a Joe Rogan who maybe helped make
Trump president is now saying this? Is this the game changer?
AXELROD: Well, look I think that, what generally reigns in excesses by leaders is their own party. When their own party begins to drift away is
when leaders react or become greatly weakened. Right now, Republicans are very much supportive of Trump.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
[13:40:00]
AXELROD: I don't know whether this Rogan piece will influence. Now, younger voters have drifted away in polling. Younger voters who, in greater
numbers, have been for past Republican candidates supported Trump, he's still lost, but by a much smaller margin. So, yes, I think that it is
significant.
And I was interested in what Rogan said because whenever I speak to audiences where there are a lot of Trump voters, I said, you know, you love
Donald Trump. I understand that, but he's not going to be president forever. And do you want the next -- say, the next president, just for
discussion purposes, is AOC, do you want her to have -- to exercise the same kind of powers where she can sweep up people without due process,
where she can make executive orders that sweep Congress aside? Do you want that?
And what Rogan is saying is, you know, we may like what we see now in make -- disappearing people to El Salvador, but are we going to like it when
another president is doing it and maybe doing it to us?
AMANPOUR: David Axelrod, thank you very much. And I'm not going to make a big deal about it, but I think you just endorsed AOC for the next Democrat.
AXELROD: No, I did not. No, I didn't. I did not.
AMANPOUR: Thank you very much.
AXELROD: Good to be with you.
AMANPOUR: And we'll be back right after this short break
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. As the world mourns the loss of Pope Francis, a deep sense of sorrow is felt in the Holy Family Catholic Church in Gaza
City, a community the pontiff spoke with every day, over 18 months of this war. For the Christian Palestinians who take refuge there, his calls were a
ray of hope and a reminder that they hadn't been forgotten. And Jeremy Diamond has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Youseff.
FR. YOUSEFF (through translator): Good every, Holy Father.
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Good evening. How are you?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (through translator): For the last 18 months of his life, this was Pope Francis' nightly ritual, at 8:00
p.m. a call to war-torn Gaza.
FR. YOUSEFF (through translator): I'm well. Thanks be to God. Forgive me. I was at the mass.
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Ah, at mass. What did you eat today?
FR. YOUSEFF (through translator): Chicken wings.
FR. GARBIEL (through translator): The rest of the chicken from yesterday.
From the third day of the war until two days before his death, Pope Francis spoke nightly with the Holy Family Church, forging a special wartime bond
that priests and parishioners of Gaza's only Catholic church won't ever forget.
REV. GABRIAL ROMANELLI, PARISH PRIEST, HOLY FAMILY CHURCH: Daily, he call us. And then to ask for peace, to pray for peace, and to give the blessing
for all Gazan people and for all the Palestinian.
DIAMOND (voice-over): He spoke to us with a father's anxiety for his children. Church leader George Anton (ph), recalled he would reassure us,
checking if we had eaten, if we had something to drink, if we had medicine, how the children were feeling, how the mothers were coping.
The relationship drew the pope closer to the plight of Gaza's civilian population and informed his outspoken criticism of Israel's attacks.
Yesterday, children were bombed, the pope cried in December. This is cruelty. This is not war. I want to say this because it touched my heart.
The pope also regularly called out rising anti-Semitism and demanded the release of Israeli hostages, including in his final address on Easter
Sunday, in which he called for a ceasefire one last time.
[13:45:00]
Inside Gaza's Holy Family Church, one of the many communities, Pope Francis touched, gathers to pray for his soul and for the world to see them as
Francis did.
My message to the world is to look at Gaza with the same eyes through which Pope Francis viewed it. Eyes of truth, justice, peace, love, eyes, that saw
the people of Gaza as deserving of life with dignity, justice, and independence.
From this small church in Gaza, a prayer against the scourge of indifference, which Pope Francis called the greatest sickness of our time.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now, on the bigger and broader issue, the fight between the Trump administration and higher education in America is escalating. This
week, Harvard University filed a lawsuit against the administrations for freezing $2 billion in their federal funds, accusing the government of
trying to, quote, gain control of academic decision making at Harvard. But it's far from collective action.
In Florida, a very different approach is developing with several colleges and universities, signing agreements with ICE to carry out immigration
enforcement on campuses. The administration justifies much of this as cracking down on anti-Semitism on campus in the wake of major protests last
year over the war in Gaza.
But for some Jews, it is increasingly looking like a dangerous weaponization of anti-Semitism. Sharon Brous is a prominent rabbi in Los
Angeles. And last year, she visited some protests herself. Now, she's warning that these campus crackdowns, detentions, and deportations are,
quote, "not going to protect Jews, we are being used."
Welcome to our program Rabbi Brous. Welcome back to the program. You're in California. Can I just start by asking you just to comment on what you
heard from our correspondent and also from Pope Francis who regularly talked about the hostages who are still there, the civilians who are being
attacked, and basically said also that to be anti-Semitic is to be anti- Christian.
RABBI SHARON BROUS, SENIOR AND FOUNDING RABBI, IKAR, AND AUTHOR, "THE AMEN EFFECT": That's right.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
BROUS: That's right. I mean, first of all, this is such a loss, and may his memory always be a blessing. This pope was a model for us of what it
means to be a faith leader and a moral leader who cared deeply for human suffering. He cared deeply about human beings. And he said frequently that
the dream of peace is a dream for both Palestinians and Israelis. He called, as you said, for the return of the hostages, there's still 24 God
willing living hostages. 59 hostages still held in Gaza. And there's catastrophic loss and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza
every day.
And this is a pope who cared so deeply, and that was what drove, I believe, his desire to see this war end. He believed that there was a different kind
of future possible for Israelis and Palestinians, and I only hope and pray that more people could hear his voice and his plea.
AMANPOUR: Let's just broaden it out, as we just sort of suggested, particularly because I was interested by some of your sermons to your
congregation and some of the things you've written and said about the current showdown between the Trump administration and higher education,
universities.
So, I sort of laid it out a little bit. We know what's going on at Harvard. There's a big battle going on there. We know that other universities like
Columbia essentially didn't fight back, and we see these students are who, yes, were at protest, being essentially taken away and detained without due
process and no charges filed.
I'm interested with how you are feeling about this. And also, there is a division between -- you know, within America's Jewish community over the
efficacy of this.
BROUS: Right. Right. I mean, you -- I think you laid it out really well. There is an anti-Semitism problem. We're seeing right now a surge of anti-
Semitism. A lot of it on the campuses. We saw a year and a half of humiliation, harassment, bullying threats and some calls to violence on
some of the campuses. Not all of the campuses and not all of the protests are driven by anti-Semitism, a lot -- some of them are also driven by a
genuine and sincere desire to see an end to a terrible, and as I said, catastrophic war.
But the universities, many of them failed to address the needs of Jewish students to feel safe on campus and to create environments that were
conducive to learning for everybody. And the administration stepped right into that void and that vacuum. And these are very draconian actions that
are not intended to keep Jewish students safe.
[13:50:00]
But they're using Jewish lack of safety as a pretext to enter into this space. And I believe it's very clear, pursue anti-democratic measures,
including attacks on higher education, the dismantling of Democratic institutions, a rollback on civil rights and other elements that will be
very dangerous, not only for Jewish students, but really for all of us. First and foremost, for the Palestinian students that are now being
detained and maybe deported, but also for all of us.
Timothy Snyder has said so clearly when universities are attacked, it's never in the best interest of the Jews. So, the fact that they're claiming
that this is to support my kids and my community, it's just false. And we're being asked now to make a false choice between Jewish safety on one
hand protection of our democracy on the other.
And it -- we just can't be forced into that kind of decision. It's -- there's no reason to be. We can be safe and we can support and sustain a
really thriving democracy right now. And these actions are going to endanger both of those goals.
AMANPOUR: You know, I still find it really interesting that there is a division amongst the U.S. Jewish community. I'm just going to play a little
bit from -- sorry, from Jonathan Greenblatt, who's the head of ADL, who's pretty much largely supported the deportation of Mahmoud Khalil, but he's
also saying that, you know, overreach potentially is happening in the government's approach to Harvard. This is what he told CNN last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO AND NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Well, look at the ADL, it's our job to protect the Jewish people. We're not
sort of public defenders for these -- for some of the Hamas --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK. Well, that didn't go as far as I thought it was going to be, but he was saying. we're not defenders of everybody. I think he was saying
Hamas next. I really need to say that if you take Mahmoud Khalil, who's one of the ring leaders at Columbia, based on his conduct, we thought he was a
very problematic individual.
You know, there's been no charges filed. I mean, surely the evidence is right there. The proof is in that fact. And the pictures of the young
woman, the Turkish student who was lifted from Tufts by basically plainclothes ICE agents and unmarked cars, I think shocked a lot of people.
But I guess I'm trying to ask you, because there are certain Jewish groups in the U.S. who have a database and are essentially allowing the
government, groups like Canary Mission and Beta USA, they're pro-Israel organizations, they've been assembling a database of students and scholars
who criticize Israel. And now, they say that the White House is using their blacklist. Where is this going to end?
BROUS: I don't know where this is going to end. I mean, I can tell you, the historians warned us that this is exactly the -- these are the
foundational steps toward tyranny, toward totalitarianism, which obviously will render all of us in this country and around the world less safe.
Without speaking specifically to the individual cases of the students that so far have been detained and we know of several of them so far, as you've
said, we have heard of no criminal charges that have been leveled against these students. There might be information that we don't yet know, but one
of them in particular who was detained the other day from Columbia, has been lifted up as a peace builder. Somebody who's been meeting for the last
four months a Palestinian from the West Bank with Israeli students at Columbia University, trying to put forward a vision of what peace could
look like.
So, this just rings of authoritarianism and it strikes me as incredibly dangerous. And you've lifted up the -- some of the very right-wing
organizations in the United States, but I want to share that many of the mainstream Jewish organizations have spoken out very clearly and
unequivocally against this. We have a very strong (INAUDIBLE). First, they came for the socialist's memory that's built in.
And we understand that when plainclothes officers approach a student on her way to Iftar at Tufts and grab her and throw her in a van, that that does
not bode well for democracy and that leaves not only that student, but all of us less safe. And that's something we're quite concerned about.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And of course, you have, as I said, been to some of the protests and you had problems, as you told us on our air, with some of what
was going on as you enumerated, you know, just before. But the question is, you see, where -- there's -- there doesn't seem -- there seem to be sort of
double standards.
[13:55:00]
You know, Ben-Gvir, who is the extreme right-wing minister of police in in Israel, has been invited to speak at Yale and he was scheduled to attend
sort of off-campus events. And we don't know what's going on, but he's been -- you know, this is a guy who's actually been convicted of incitement to
racism, supporting a terrorist organization. You know, and joining him is an extremist settler who's convicted of national security offenses,
assaulting an elderly Palestinian, and they were all -- a lot of them were sanctioned under the Biden administration, but those sanctions have been
lifted.
You know, this kind of thing, do you think it puts -- it sets up a dangerous double standard that then people don't take any of it seriously?
BROUS: Yes, absolutely. I mean, this is one of the great dangers of exploiting anti-Semitism and legitimate Jewish trauma and fear and concern
for our safety in order to advance anti-Democratic measures. If everything is anti-Semitic, then nothing is actually Anti-Semitic. We can't actually
address the real problems if we argue that everything is a problem.
Standing in solidarity with Palestinians and expressing tremendous grief over Palestinian suffering does not render a person anti-Semitic. Anti-
Semitism is real and anti-Semitism, it poses great threat not only to Jews, but to our democracy and our whole society, and we cannot address it if we
treat everyone everywhere like they're an anti-Semite.
And so, this is extremely dangerous for us, and this is why most American Jews really oppose what's happening right now. They also, by the way,
really strongly oppose Ben-Gvir, Smotrich and the hardline ultranationalist government that's now ruling Israel. There was great opposition to Ben-Gvir
being invited to speak in the United States at all.
And so, this isn't -- this is not normal, what's happening now. And we have to continue to use our voices to cry out against the normalization of
something that should not ever be treated as normal.
AMANPOUR: Incredibly important distinctions that you're making there. Thank you as ever, Rabbi Sharon Brous. Thank you.
And that is it for us. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
