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Amanpour
Interview with Ukrainian MP Oleksiy Goncharenko; Interview with E.U. Sanctions Envoy David O'Sullivan; Interview with Bereaved Israeli Father and The Parents Circle Families Forum Member Rami Elhanan; Interview with Bereaved Palestinian Father, Combatants for Peace Co-Founder and The Parents Circle Families Forum Member Bassam Aramin; Interview with Friend of Pope Francis and "On Heaven and Earth" Author Abraham Skorka; Trump Meets with Norway's PM at WH. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired April 24, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Russia launches brutal strikes on Kyiv. Trump says, Vladimir, stop. I speak to a Ukrainian member of Parliament and with the senior E.U. diplomat,
David O'Sullivan from Brussels.
Then, the world mourns an outspoken opponent of war. I'm joined by two courageous peacemakers who met Pope Francis, Israeli Rami Elhanan, and
Palestinian Bassam Aramin.
And we look back at my conversation with the Argentine Rabbi Abraham Skorka, about building bridges between religions with his friend who then
became pope.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Today, Kyiv is trying to clear the rubble, clear the bodies, and clear the injured after a massive wave of Russian strikes throughout the night and
into the early morning. It looked like the early days of the war three years ago. Following the attacks, President Zelenskyy rushed back from an
official visit to South Africa, where earlier, he had rejected the latest Trump administration proposal to end the war, which to Kyiv sounds more
like a term of surrender.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We are doing everything that our partners have suggested, except for what we
cannot do because it is contrary to our legislative constitution. And this is understandable, because even the struggle for the independence of our
state, for our sovereignty, and for territorial integrity is our survival.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The White House proposes recognizing Russian control of Crimea, which Putin annexed in 2014, and freezing territorial lines, quote,
"somewhere close" to what Russia has illegally grabbed since its full-scale invasion of 2022.
Speaking in India, U.S. Vice President J. D. Vance threatened to abandon negotiations if Ukraine won't accept these terms.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say
yes, or for the United States to walk away from this process. We want the killing to stop, and the only way to really stop the killing is for the
armies to both put down their weapons, to freeze this thing, and to get on with the business of actually building a better Russia and a better
Ukraine. We're certainly invested in that effort. We hope the Russians and Ukrainians will meet us halfway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, the Ukrainians did already meet one of the demands, and that was for a temporary ceasefire, but Russia didn't. And after Russia's
overnight airstrikes that killed at least 12 people, President Trump posted, I am not happy with the Russian strikes on Kyiv. Not necessary and
very bad timing. Vladimir, stop. 5,000 soldiers a week are dying. Let's get the peace deal done.
Now, Olexi (ph) -- sorry. Oleksiy Goncharenko is a member of Ukraine's Parliament and he tracked the Russian missile strikes all through the
night. Welcome to our program.
OLEKSIY GONCHARENKO, Ukrainian MP: Hello.
AMANPOUR: Just let me -- just react to me where Ukraine stands. We heard - - we've heard, obviously, from President Zelenskyy about -- you know, not being able to accept what's being proposed. Describe to me beyond the
constitutional issue what you think of the Russia -- of the U.S. proposal?
[13:05:00]
GONCHARENKO: Hi, Christiane. Hello, everybody. The problem is that we know leaks in media but we can't verify them. So, we don't really know what was
U.S. proposal. At least, I don't know exactly. Because there were a lot of rumors that United States pushed Ukraine to recognize part of our
territories occupied by Russia as Russian, but Donald Trump yesterday, his statement, clearly said that it's not the case. He said, nobody asks
Ukraine to recognize Crimea to be Russian.
So, what exactly is in the proposal is not clear. Or if we're speaking about what was leaked, almost every -- all what we saw there is absolutely
acceptable except one point about recognition of Crimea to be Russian. Because definitely, that is something which destroys international law,
which opens the Pandora box. There will be more aggressions after this in the world, definitely for Ukrainians, unacceptable.
But in general, we need peace. We need peace as soon as possible, and we hope very much that American efforts in this direction will have a real
result.
AMANPOUR: You obviously saw, because you were tracking it all night, that shortly after this, you know, proposal that was leaked or whether it's real
or not, we're not sure. But in any event, you clearly don't believe it's a strong proposal. These strikes from Russia. And then, you know, obviously
Trump was annoyed and cross and angry, and he posted and he said, Vladimir, stop. Where do you -- how do you expect Putin to react to that tweet, that
post?
GONCHARENKO: That's a good question. I hope that Putin will stop, exactly what Trump asks him to do. If not, I think it's the time for President
Trump to put pressure on Moscow. Because President Trump already put quite a pressure on Ukraine, on Zelenskyy, but it's time to put pressure on
Russia. Because Russia feels itself more and more emboldened.
Yes, they're playing games with President Trump, but I think they're making a big mistake. They think nobody understands what they're doing, sending to
Trump, his portraits, praising him, and so on, but at the same time, continuing the war and killing children, like this night in Kyiv, and not
only -- I think that President Trump is very clear now.
And if Putin will ignore his request to stop, then I think it's the time for President Trump to show strength. It's enough to show character, this
donkey. It's time to show the stick and to use it.
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, I know you're trying to -- you know, you don't want to anger Trump anymore against Ukraine, but he has been saying some
things that make -- you know, he considers Ukraine, as he keeps saying, to have no cards. He posted, we are very close to a deal, but the man with no
cards to play should now finally get it done.
I've spoken to other analysts. I've reported from the frontline there. Ukraine doesn't appear to be losing. It's not great the situation on the
ground. But do you agree that Ukraine has no cards?
GONCHARENKO: Definitely as Ukrainian, I would never agree with this. And the main card we have is the courage of Ukrainian people. And this courage
already made a miracle when the whole world was waiting that Russian armada will destroy Ukraine in days and that Kyiv would be taken in two, three
days, or two, three weeks, but it never happened and it will never happen.
And all these Russian gains, unfortunately they have some, but they are really very, very tiny with such tempo of movement. It will take hundreds
of years for Russia to take Ukraine. So, it'll never happen. But at the same time, I just want everybody to -- and first of all, President Trump to
remember Ukraine is not just President Zelenskyy. Because relationships between these two men is bad.
It's nothing good in these at all. I would like to see another relationship between two presidents, but we have what we have. But what is important for
President Trump to remember, Ukraine is tens of millions of people, and it's not just President Zelenskyy, first of all.
Secondly, the whole world is watching now, is United States a partner you can rely on? Because Ukraine gave up the third largest nuclear arsenal in
the world in 1994. Ukraine received many commitments from the United States. The United States will stand with us as long as it'll be needed and
so on. And if all -- after all these Ukraine will be abandoned, that will be a clear signal to the world, you can't count on the United States,
first.
[13:10:00]
Second, if you want to have security, go nukes. Because the only thing how a small country can protect itself against bigger country is to have
nuclear weapons. I think it's two signals which are unacceptable for President Trump. And that's why I hope that he will make right steps and he
can really push Putin to peace. He has enough of leverage, secondary sanctions on Russian oil, sanctions against Russian shadow fleet, and many
other things which are absolutely the card President Trump has.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, because we think, again, it's -- it is written in the press, that President Zelenskyy would like to meet President Trump
at the pope's funeral this weekend. So, it's happening on Saturday. Do you think a meeting would or should happen, and how do you think Zelenskyy
should handle it this time?
GONCHARENKO: You know, fingers crossed if this meeting will happen, and I hope it will happen. It will not end like the last meeting in Oval Office
ended. We don't need to argue with President Trump because we can't lose the United States of America. It doesn't matter, do you like President
Trump or not, we will not have any other president of the United States next three years and a half.
So, we respect American people. It means we respect their choice. They chose President Trump. We need to work with him, and we need to work not to
argue. And the important thing is that we need United States more than United States needs us, for the moment.
But I am sure in future United States will also need Ukraine, and that's why it's absolutely mutually beneficial to support one another.
AMANPOUR: Oleksiy, what do you think would happen if, as both Vice President Vance and Secretary of State Rubio have said several times now
over the last couple of days, that either they're going to agree both parties or the U.S. is going to walk away and focus on different
priorities? What if the U.S. does that and also ends the military aid? Do you think that that could happen? And what could you do about it? Where can
you get the military aid that you need in time?
GONCHARENKO: Yes. First of all, what does it mean walking away? Does it mean that also there will be no support or not? Maybe walking away from
negotiations, but continuing to military support Ukraine. It's one story, or abandoning Ukraine completely is another story.
What -- but where it can lead us if Ukraine will be abandoned completely, I think, definitely Ukraine, it leads to catastrophe because United States is
absolutely vital partner for us. But at the same time, I think for United States and even personally to President Trump, it would be very bad,
because it can lead us to Afghanistan of President Trump. And we all remember how devastating was political effect of what had happened in
Afghanistan in the beginning of Biden's term.
I'm absolutely sure that President Trump doesn't want to have something like this in the beginning of his term. That's why I don't believe it's
possible that Ukraine will be abandoned completely.
In this case, definitely we will count on Europe. But I should be frank with you, unfortunately, for the moment, I don't see enough willingness,
you know, because we hear a lot of statements from our European partners, and I'm very thankful for all support we're receiving. But statements is
not decisions.
I can't understand why Europe still is not seizing Russian assets. It's not in the hands of President Trump. It's in the hands of Europe. Why they're
not doing this? Why there is no military contingent, which, for example, secure Ukrainian-Belarusian border? And by this, freeing Ukrainian forces
to fight against Russia -- against Russians, and many, many other questions. So, we can't lose the United States.
AMANPOUR: Let me just finally ask you, because you say, we could be in a bad situation, we want peace, but at what cost? So, as you say, you're
correct, the details have been leaked. They've been reported from Axios. So, one of them was the U.S. recognition and everybody's recognition of
Crimea, as you said, that's not possible. Recognition of Russia's occupation of parts of the East, a commitment for Ukraine not to join NATO,
though possibly -- you know, possibly E.U. membership. And we talked about the lifting of sanctions on Russia.
What about the NATO? I mean, if you were told that you had to sign a peace agreement that commits you to never joining NATO, is that something that
you could accept?
[13:15:00]
GONCHARENKO: Never say never. The best possible security -- we need security guarantee. We don't need NATO just to have our flag stay in
standing in Brussels. We need NATO because we need security guarantees that Russia will not attack Ukraine again in two, three, four years, maybe after
President Trump will end his term. So, that's why we need -- and the NATO is the best guarantee of this.
AMANPOUR: OK.
GONCHARENKO: If not, it's possible because we want to be part of NATO, but if NATO says no, we can't do anything about this, absolutely anything. So,
we just can't. So, in this situation, we need to find some other ways to deter Russia from a possible new attack. It can be a package of things near
economic deal with the United States, European contingent, European boots on the ground, long-term commitments of weaponry supply and so on.
AMANPOUR: OK.
GONCHARENKO: So, that's the way how -- what we should follow.
AMANPOUR: Thank you so much. Ukrainian PM Oleksiy Goncharenko, thanks for joining us.
Now, David O'Sullivan is the E.U. sanction envoy. He's tasked with holding the line on restrictive financial meshes against Russia. He previously
served as E.U. ambassador to Washington, and he's joining us now from Brussels. Welcome to the program.
DAVID O'SULLIVAN, E.U. SANCTIONS ENVOY: Thank you very much, Christiane. Thank you for the invitation.
AMANPOUR: So, let me first start by asking you about the sanctions issue, which is essentially the only sort of tough measures that have been applied
against Russia for the last several years. So, you just heard what, you know, the voice from Ukraine. They say, well, why hasn't Europe -- it's
been talking about, you know, seizing, sanctioned and frozen Russian assets. This was a big topic of conversation after Trump said that, you
know, you're all on your own essentially. Can you explain to us why that hasn't happened, seizing the Russian frozen assets?
O'SULLIVAN: Well, I mean, the assets have been frozen. Russia doesn't have them at their disposal. We estimate that as a result of that seizure, that
freezing, and as a result of sanctions more generally, Russia has about 450 billion euros less at its disposal than would otherwise have been the case.
That's three or four times their annual defense budget.
So, the question of what ultimately happens to those assets, we are very clear that they will not be going back to Russia anytime soon. And we're
very clear that they will be leveraged, at some point, to pay for the reconstruction of Ukraine. So, that's the position.
And in the meantime, Russia does not have access to that money, and we are using windfall profits from those assets in order to provide loans to
Ukraine for military equipment. So, I think we are making good use of those immobilized assets. And the sanctions overall, of course, are having a very
big impact on the Russian economy.
AMANPOUR: Just one more on the frozen assets. Obviously, you -- that protocol was in effect all along and before Trump basically said, we're not
sending anymore and you have to do it, Europe. There was a notion that Europe could actually have money from those frozen assets, not down the
road for reconstruction necessarily, but now, for buying weapons for Ukraine. Is that out of the question?
O'SULLIVAN: Well, I think we, we need to understand that the European Union has already contributed financially very significant to Ukraine, over
144 billion and slightly more, in fact, than the United States. But the question of whether you can seize and use the immobilized assets is a
complicated legal one, and we haven't found the perfect solution to that. But I emphasize they're not going back to Russia and they will be leveraged
to pay for the reconstruction of Ukraine.
AMANPOUR: So, let's talk about the -- because in part of this leaked document from the American organization, Axios, the sort of apparent peace
proposal that Trump has, it was also mentioned that sanctions would be released -- sorry, lifted.
Obviously, in our experience of negotiations, war against -- and peace, sanctions are usually the last thing that comes off. They are there in
return for a peace agreement and not before a peace agreement. So, there's a lot of back and forth in the United States amongst the administration
about, did we say that, didn't we say it? But very clearly, Steve Witkoff anyway, has said it on TV. So, it's been said.
What is the actual facts? What can happen? Can the U.S. unilaterally lift sanctions? Can it force the E.U. to lift its sanctions even before there's
a peace deal?
O'SULLIVAN: Well, I think the sanctions which have been imposed by, what I will call the G7 plus coalition, so the G7 but plus many other partners,
including Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, even Taiwan, ultimately, it's up to each member of that coalition to make the legal decision about
their sanctions.
[13:20:00]
So, technically speaking, of course, or legally speaking, the United States would be fully free to lift its sanctions. We would sincerely hope that
they would not, because I think the great strength of the coalition has come through our unity and the collective impact. European sanctions would
require -- lifting of European sanctions would require lift -- a European decision. And I can assure you that the mood in Europe is very much, we
would need a lot of reassurance before we would even consider lifting sanctions.
Exactly as you say, the sanctions relief should be something which comes rather at the end of the process, as President von der Leyen said, when
it's clear that we are dealing with a sustainable peace process where sanctions are no longer needed. They were introduced in response to
Russia's full-scale invasion.
And by the way, just to go back to the point made by our Ukrainian colleague earlier. I mean, the simplest way to peace is for Mr. Putin to
say, I'm going to stop waging this war. I don't quite understand why there is a sort of equivalence between Ukraine and Russia. Russia is the
aggressor. Ukraine is the victim. And the simplest way to have a ceasefire, for example, which Ukraine has accepted as unconditional, would be for Mr.
Putin to say yes, I also agree to an unconditional ceasefire.
He seems to be trying to put conditions of which sanctions relief, which certainly from a European perspective is absolutely not acceptable at this
point.
AMANPOUR: And Mr. O'Sullivan, he's done a lot more than just that. He has met several times with Steve Witkoff. They've had four hours of
conversation. Apparently, there's more ahead, Friday or Saturday or sometime in the next couple of days.
Other analysts, like Fiona Hill and others, have said on various news programs that that they believe Putin is playing Witkoff and playing Trump.
And they can't really understand, and somebody even said, in Politico, that this leaked plan, they asked, was it written by Putin? So, how do you think
the current state of negotiations, where the administration says, we want both to do -- both to stop, but what they say in public is much more to
Putin's benefit, much more his talking points than -- and still criticizing Ukraine? How do you -- what's your reaction to this?
O'SULLIVAN: Well, the situation, Christiane, is actually quite confusing, as you've just said. There are different things come out of Washington at
different moments. They're going to lift sanctions. They're going to impose additional sanctions. So, it's -- and I'm certainly not privy to the inner
conversations which are taking place.
The only thing I can say is what I said earlier, if you want a ceasefire, then it is very easy for both sides to say an unconditional ceasefire and
stop the fighting. Ukraine has agreed to this, and it does strike us in Europe as somewhat surprising the extent to which the administration does
sometimes take over the Russian narrative on this.
But we are supportive of the administration's attempts to bring peace. Nobody wants peace more than the Ukrainians. Nobody wants peace more than
the Europeans. But it has to be a good peace, a peace that is sustainable, and as was mentioned in the -- to your earlier guest, that does not lead to
Russia reengaging with aggression in a year or two's time and trying to finish the job they tried to start and failed in February of 2022. So,
that's the key criterion by which any settlement will be judged.
AMANPOUR: And where do you think -- what do you think will happen if the United States, as it has been suggested, walks away unless they get
something tangible in the next, you know, near future? What will happen? Because already, there's no security guarantees in -- and even in this plan
from the United States. It's a U.S. plan, but no security guarantees from the United States. Russia has made it very clear that it would never accept
any -- even European boots on the ground. Where do you think this goes if the U.S. decides that there's no more room for it to be the negotiator?
O'SULLIVAN: Well, Christiane, I -- you're asking me to speculate about something which may not happen. Our sincere wish would be that the United
States maintains its effort to try to bring about a piece. We will certainly maintain our sanctions and we will certainly maintain our full
support for Ukraine, both military and economic.
Ukraine is part of Europe. It is a future member of the European Union. And we stand fully behind Ukraine in their struggle to maintain their
independence, their sovereignty, and their freedom. And we would hope that we would still have many friends in Washington who see that in the same
way.
AMANPOUR: Well, today in Washington, other Norwegians, including the former NATO secretary general, who obviously knows his story very, very
well and knows President Trump very well. We'll see what comes out of that meeting. David O'Sullivan, thank you very much indeed.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
[13:25:00]
Now, later in the program, we remember the pope's legacy of peace and building bridges between different religions.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Incredibly, it has now been over 50 days since any aid has entered Gaza. Amid this full-scale siege, dozens more Palestinians have
reportedly been killed by Israeli airstrikes in the past 24 hours alone, and dozens of Israeli hostages remain captive held by Hamas. About 24 of
them are believed to still be alive.
Now, civilians in Gaza have lost one of their strongest advocates on the world stage, Pope Francis. His unceasing calls for peace, basically he
said, peacemaking requires courage much more so than warfare. And few people embody that courage better than our next guest tonight and the pope
recognized them too.
Last year, Francis met Rami Elhanan, an Israeli father, and Bassam Aramin, a Palestinian father who have both lost daughters to this endless war. Both
men ultimately decided to use their grief to fight for peace, and they join me now from Haifa in Israel and Aman in Jordan.
Welcome both of you to the program. Bassam, I know you are in in Jordan. And, Rami, you are in Israel and I know you're soon going to be meeting up.
But I must say that it is incredible that after all of this you are still talking to each other and still want to pursue the alternative path.
So, just let me ask you first. Rami, what was it like meeting with the pope? You met him last year, 2024, I believe. In fact, you both met him
twice that year. Tell me, Rami, from your perspective, what it was like.
RAMI ELHANAN, BEREAVED ISRAELI FATHER AND MEMBER, THE PARENTS CIRCLE FAMILIES FORUM: It was amazing. Unbelievably exciting. I'm not a religious
person and I didn't have many expectations out of this meeting. And I felt like, a big father hugging me and you have the feeling that you want to put
your head on his shoulder.
He was very compassionate. He was very empathic. He touched the picture of our girls and he received the book from us. He was so nice. He was so
polite. He was so compassionate that I was really touched by his behavior.
AMANPOUR: And, Bassam, you, how did you feel about it? Are you a religious person?
BASSAM ARAMIN, BEREAVED PALESTINIAN FATHER, CO-FOUNDER, COMBATANTS FOR PEACE AND MEMBER, THE PARENTS CIRCLE FAMILIES FORUM: Yes. Thank you. In
fact, yes, I'm a religious person. But in general, I am not like emotional person to be honest. But there is something like magic in this human being.
It's a great leader, great human being, very modest. He give you the impression that we know each other. I know you and exactly I know your
pain, as Rami mentioned, as a father.
So, in fact, it's very sad to lose the most moral courage voice towards humanity and poor people and refugees, and children and women's.
Unbelievable.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to ask you to tell the stories of your girls, but first, I want to say how the pope reflected on what you have decided to do
with your lives.
[13:30:00]
He basically said, you are very courageous. There are three types of people. There are those who want to fight, and there are those who want to
ignore the suffering and the pain. And then, there are the peacemakers, like you, who are willing to embrace and work with one another.
These are really incredible words. And, Rami, see behind you, I see a little bit and I've been told that you have pictures of your daughter and
Bassam's daughter behind you. The two girls who were killed. So, remind me -- I'm going to ask you first, tell me your daughter's name and what
happened to her, Rami?
ELHANAN: My daughter's name is Smadar Elhanan. Smadar is the great of (INAUDIBLE) from the Song of Solomon. She was 14 years old. She was killed
by a Hamas suicide bomber on the 4th of September, 1997 in a suicide bombing in the heart of Jerusalem.
AMANPOUR: And, Bassam, what happened to your daughter, and tell me her name.
ARAMIN: Abir was my third child. She was 10 years old. An Israeli border police unfortunately shot and killed her in the front of her school from a
distance of 15 to 20 meters in her head from the back. She was with her sister and two other girls 9:30 in the morning. And unfortunately, two days
later she passed away Hadassah Hospital where she were and where Smadar born and died.
AMANPOUR: Can you tell me how you two met and how you managed to translate this terrible pain and loss and grief into something positive?
ELHANAN: I met the Bassam in 2005 on the cradle of the creation of new peace movement, which is called the Combatants for Peace. My son, Elik, was
one of the founders of this of this movement. He was a combat soldier in the Israeli army. And later on become refusenik.
And we were meeting the other side, what is known as the other side. And we met Bassam, and I immediately fell in love with him and we became very
close friends. They came to our house in Jerusalem. We came to their house in Anata, and we became very, very close.
And then, two years later, on the 16th of January, 2007, we got a telephone that Abir was shot and she's in the hospital. And we drove to the Hadassah
Hospital in Jerusalem, me and my wife, and we spent two days by her bed. And for me, it was like losing my daughter for the second time.
I think it's an alliance. It's an alliance of blood. What connects us is far way beyond words. We are feeling the same. We don't need words to
understand each other.
AMANPOUR: And, Bassam, it must have been unbelievable when Rami came and sat with you all for those days. And how did you develop into that
friendship as well and that commitment to turn grief into something positive, like maybe one day even peace?
ARAMIN: You know, it's not easy. We didn't start to make friendship. We want to be partners. And always, I said, we don't need to love each other.
We don't even need to like each other, just we need to respect each other and to respect our rights, to exist in both sides, to live in peace and
security and dignity and social justice. Of course, we're human beings.
And always I said that when you discover the humanity and the ability of your enemy is not your enemy anymore. We became the same side. One peace,
one who are ready to pay the price for peace. Because we know as ex- fighters the price of fear and war and losing our children, especially because we lost our children.
I said from the beginning, we need to double our efforts to achieve peace now, not to continue the circle of revenge, because we will kill our other
kids. They need to kill -- or to be killed. And in this case, I believe we perish (ph) our kids to be killed or to kill without knowing like in a very
western way, let me say, or modern way.
The truth that we became a very close friends and brothers. Now, we are family. We want to prove that we can live together. Since 2005, up to date,
we never fall, simply because we respect each other. And really, we love each other as brothers, as family.
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ARAMIN: Our relationship is above any conflict, because we see Israelis as Palestinians, as Americans, as Iraqis, as Canadians, we belong to the
mankind. We need to work not only for the Palestinians and the Israelis, to make our world much safer and better. You know, today, when we see the
situation, even the animals, unfortunately, feel shame what we're doing to each other.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, because you're talking especially about a period before October 7th, and that has changed everything. It certainly has
changed so much in Israel. It's changed so much in Gaza and the West Bank as well, not just the terrible loss of life, but the hardening, obviously,
under this constant bombardment and this separation of people's ability to talk like you.
So, has it been difficult, Rami, to continue this friendship, continue this level of empathy since October 7th? Have there been stresses on your
relationship on October 7th?
ELHANAN: On October 7th in the morning when we didn't really know what's happening, Bassam called me and he said to me, brother, this time, it's our
time to conquer you. So, you are invited to my house to get a shelter with your family.
The conflict did not start on October 7th, did not end on October 8th. The Hamas killers that did the massacre on October 7th were 12 years old when
Israel attacked Gaza in 2014. And it's a chain of violence, which we are like the kid who puts his finger on the dam trying to stop this bloodshed
and this madness. And we do it with our moral authority. We pay the highest price possible. We have the moral authority to tell those people, we cannot
go on killing each other forever. We must put an end to it. We must respect each other. We can live together. And me and Bassam are an example that it
is possible.
The happiest day of my life will be when Mr. Bassam Aramin will be my emperor, my prime minister, my king, my president, whatever he wants,
because he is a human being.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you just quickly about this attitude, because just before Passover, about a thousand Israeli, current and former, Air Force
pilots and other personnel, they published a letter. They demanded an end to the war for the sake of the hostage release. And since then, you know,
more than a dozen or a couple of dozen more petitions by army units, civil society have been published. According to Ha'aretz, they've got some
hundred thousand supporters and signatories.
But do you see that having an impact inside Israel, Rami, on either the politicians or indeed the majority of people these days?
ELHANAN: We are fighting for our lives this very last dark days. And we are fighting for our democracy. We are fighting for our freedom, and we are
fighting for our ability to raise children like normal human beings. And we are governed by a fascist government who has lost any Jewish value, and to
put us in a place that, me personally, I'm ashamed to be Jew at these days, vis-a-vis what is going on in Gaza.
And I really hope that we will conquer, that we will win, and this -- the minority of the Jewish people and the whole world will come and put an end
to this massacre in Gaza.
AMANPOUR: Bassam, I want to ask you, because as critical as Rami and many other Israelis are of their current government, you know that Hamas, which
waged this horrendous catastrophe, this terrible slaughter, is in full control of Gaza. They don't have a choice, the people there, and some of
them have been -- when the bombings have been stopping, you've seen they've come out to basically say, stop with this, Hamas, release the hostages. You
are bringing us this.
Just in the last few days, the actual, you know, legitimate head of the Palestinians, which recognizes Israel, which has been elected, although
long time ago, Mahmoud Abbas, called Hamas, sons of dogs. I mean, you know, this is rare language. What is the attitude on the Palestinian side to the
catastrophic leadership that has also brought you to this terrible place?
[13:40:00]
ARAMIN: Yes. In fact, from the beginning, even before the 8th of October, the 7th of October, we say our position that it's a very brutal attack. We
don't support it and we know the result in advance. I say the morning to Rami, when we hear about 15,000 to 20,000 Palestinian civilians being
killed, then we will talk, start to talk about ceasefire.
I was very modest. So, we know where we are. Problem that, if you follow the political attitude for Israel, this is exactly what they want. Since
2005 when Sharon withdrawn from Gaza without even talking to the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, in that time, like it's from one
side, this was what expected. They give them power. They divide the Palestinian land between Gaza and the West Bank. This is their political
game. And unfortunately, this is what happened.
Now, they give a very good excuse to Netanyahu, which became a very famous war criminal, and even he don't care about the hostages, according their
parents. So, he will never care about the Palestinians. So, in fact, I believe even the people of Gaza, innocent people, they are not Hamas, they
don't agree Hamas, but Netanyahu and his government (INAUDIBLE) everyday and everyday we must hear from 30 to 50 to 100 children and women. So, the
people -- the world lost his humanity.
And now, I think it's the time for everyone, and especially for the Israeli, they care about the hostages, their son and daughters, which is
very painful for me as ex-prisoner. I spent seven years in jail in the Israeli jails. When I saw those hostages, you know, I feel myself in their
place. So, I feel them. They must come back safe to their families, exactly like more than 15,000 Palestinian prisoners since 30 and 40 years in the
Israeli jails.
This will change the attitude, the atmosphere in the Palestinian side. And I believe after this genocide or ethnic cleansing, according to the
Israelis, or massacre, whatever you call it, we must have peace. Otherwise, we just invest in more blood, in more pain and prepare for the next --
another 7th of October, unfortunately. After five years, seven years, 20 years, whatever.
We must put an end to this madness once and forever by creating a peace deal with the Palestinians, not with the Saudis, not with the Emirates, not
with the Sudanese, with the Iraqis, it doesn't work. Only the Palestinians, they will be the guarantee of the Israeli security. They will never feel
security until I feel security.
And again, as my brother said, we are proof that evidence that we can live even together, one state, two states, or five states. Otherwise, we will
share the same land as two big graveyards to our kids and our families and our people. And always we say that one day it'll up in our faces. You
cannot occupy another people and not expect one face -- it'll blow up in your face.
AMANPOUR: So, if that's what you feel, Bassam and Rami, you guys are going to -- I believe you're on the way to meet each other in Spain. And you have
already, as I said, written an article for the Spanish newspaper, El Pais. What do you hope to tell to whoever you're meeting in Spain, whatever
public events you have? How -- I don't know, when was the last time you actually physically saw each other, but are you looking forward to seeing
each other, sharing a meal, having a chat?
ELHANAN: Really, we met each other about a week ago when I came to the Circle office in Beit Jala and I break the Israeli law and go to the
Palestinian area just to meet and hug him. But our message to the people who invited us in Spain will be the same message we are telling you. I'm
saying all the time, I have no sympathy for Hamas. Hamas are the killers of my daughter, but I will talk to the devil itself in order to save one drop
of blood.
And this is exactly what we are doing. We are putting our pain on the table. Our pain is an energy of a nuclear power. You can use this nuclear
energy in a way to destruct, to destroy, and to dismiss everything, and you can use it in order to put some light, warmth, hope. And this is exactly
our message when we go all around the world, where we talk to all kind of people from the pope to the last people anywhere, that we are the example
that it is possible.
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: Yes. And --
ARAMIN: You know, Christiane, I'm sorry, just to say that, you know, it's -- today, it's the international day of the Holocaust. We need to learn a
little bit from the history. We need to say never again for everyone. And my message to my Jewish brother and sisters around the world and especially
the survivors, your voice is very important if you like to support Israel to be a moral state, we need to like raise your voice against the
occupation, against the cruel, and against the violence. And through peace and justice to everyone.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ARAMIN: Because all of us have the right to live in peace.
AMANPOUR: Indeed. And it's just so wonderful to hear from you both. And as you rightly pointed out, it is Holocaust Remembrance Day. And it's amazing
to hear you guys, it just is. So, Bassam Aramin and and Rami Elhanan, thank you very much for giving us some hope.
And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. Among the millions of people grieving the death of Pope Francis are of course his closest friends. Before he was Francis, he
was Jorge Bergoglio, archbishop of Buenos Aires, known for riding to work on public transport, and for his love of soccer. One of his closest friends
from that time was Rabbi Abraham Skorka. They spent hours discussing life and religion, which ultimately, they turned into a book. And I spoke to
Rabbi Skorka about it back in 2013, the year the cardinal became the pope.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Rabbi, welcome to the program. Thanks for coming in to the studio.
ABRAHAM SKORKA, FRIEND OF POPE FRANCIS AND AUTHOR, "ON HEAVEN AND EARTH": It's my pleasure.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you what everybody wants to know after your book has come out, how did you forge your friendship with now Pope Francis? How did
it begin?
SKORKA: The beginning was through jokes about what we call in Argentina football, that soccer there, the American soccer. But behind the jokes was
a message I understand -- understood then, that he sent me a message. I open my heart.
AMANPOUR: What does it mean for your faith, the Jewish faith, that you, a rabbi, have such a close personal relationship and a theological
relationship with the leader of 1.2 billion Catholics? What does it mean for your faith?
SKORKA: An historical moment, a very historical moment because he is very close to us.
AMANPOUR: Obviously, there's a lot of skepticism still amongst many Jews about the Catholic faith, about the actions of the pope, particularly Pius
XII during the Nazi period, during World War II. This pope, when he was cardinal, has talked about opening the Vatican archives. Do you believe he
will set a debt -- date for doing that?
SKORKA: So, he told me that and so it appears in the book.
AMANPOUR: Well, I'll put up the quote, because it's very important, and then we can discuss it. Then-Cardinal Bergoglio said, let them be opened
and let everything be cleared up. Let it be seen if they could have done something to help and until what point they could have helped. And if they
made a mistake in any aspect of this, we would have to say we have erred. We don't need to be scared of this. The truth has to be the goal.
[13:50:00]
So how did you read that? It's a very frank admission that he's prepared to finally answer all the questions about what did the church know and when
did they know it.
SKORKA: And surely, that he will do what he said, that it has to be done.
AMANPOUR: You also did talk about those terrible years in Argentina, the military dictatorship of the 1970s; it was known, to a large extent, as the
Dirty War. And in the book, he talked to you and was very frank about the role of the Catholic Church at that time. He compared, for instance, the
way the Argentine church dealt with the dictatorship, compared to where the Chilean church dealt with their dictatorship and stood up much strongly --
much more strongly to the dictator there, Pinochet.
He said in the book, the way you wanted the Argentine church to act was the way the Chilean church acted. What do you think he meant by that?
SKORKA: It's a mecritic to the Argentinian church in -- it's very known that some priests were -- Catholic priests were present in the places where
people were tortured. And he criticized a lot this kind of priest. And so, it appears in the book.
AMANPOUR: And what did he say about his own experience during that time? There have been many questions, as you know.
SKORKA: Yes. He has a very critical point of view regarding his own attitude during that period, asking himself did I do the utmost, which was
my possibilities, but would we know now very clear that he hoped a lot of people -- he saved a lot of people.
AMANPOUR: There's so many different constituencies who look at this pope now, Pope Francis, and they want to know what he's going to do on any
number of issues. Let's just take the woman issue. Describing yourself as someone who's very familiar with the pope, who knows the pope's thinking,
you said, were all the decision power in his hands, he would do a lot. He would do a lot. What can you tell us about what you think he might do about
the role of women?
SKORKA: I am not so sure exactly in a pragmatical way what he will do. But what I am really sure is that he will analyze one and thousand times what
is possible to be changed. He will open the debate. That's the first point because don't forget that he has had history of 2,000 years behind him. And
how to change that, he has a very open mind in order to analyze all the things. For him, there's not a closed thing. Even homosexuality, even
abortion, to analyze. Now, how to change, I cannot foresee.
AMANPOUR: And on celibacy, priestly celibacy, he said in the book, it is an issue of discipline, not faith; it can be changed. Do you think that's
something that he really wants to delve into deeply and possibly institute changes?
SKORKA: So, he said in the book. He said that -- he told me -- I don't remember if this appeared in the book -- but he told me, look, I receive
this tradition, but I know this is not a dogma. This is just a tradition and maybe that in the future it could be changed. I don't remember if these
words appeared in the book.
But during our conversations, it shocked when -- why I remember this so clear, because I remain shocked when he said, in the future, it could be.
This is my tradition, but in the future. And could be that he will pave the way, not in his papacy, but in another papacy to come, that another one
would change that.
AMANPOUR: What is your observation of the difference between the cardinal and now the pope who you know so well and his predecessor, Pope Benedict?
SKORKA: He laughs more.
AMANPOUR: He laughs more?
[13:55:00]
SKORKA: He laughs more. He -- yes, he smiles more. He used to smile, but now very much open. He laughs with a -- with a big laugh. And why? Because
he knows that he must -- and it's coming out from his heart, because he knows that he must transmit an image of hope, of hope through his life
laugh.
Now, the difference -- the differences between Ratzinger and my good friend, Francisco, he lives with his mind on heaven and with his feet on
Earth.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Erica Hill in New York. We want to bring you straight to the White House where President Trump is meeting with
Norway's prime minister. Let's listen.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Ukraine and Russia, and trade, we're doing very well, I think, on both. We've had some pretty good movement in every
respect. The war is very important that it ends with -- I used to say 2,500 people a week dying, young people, mostly soldiers from Russia and Ukraine.
And we want to end that war. We want to end it quickly. And I think we've made a long -- a lot of progress and we'll see what happens. These next few
days is going to be very important. Meetings are taking place right now.
Additionally, we talked about trade and we will definitely -- we get along very well on trade. We'll do something. But I think the prime minister
knows that over the years, United States has been very good to a lot of people and it's time for us to benefit also. So, we're going to have a good
relationship on trade. And we discussed other things also.
But, Mr. Prime Minister, it's an honor to have you the we us. Thank you very much.
JONAS GAHR STORE, NORWEGIAN PRIME MINISTER: Well, thank you, Mr. President. This year is 200 years since the first immigration from Norway
to the U.S. We come here early in your term. Appreciate that you take time. We have highlighted that very close cooperation. We are allies. We look
after security in the north, in the Arctic. A lot of confidence between our services.
We have discussed in detail the war in Ukraine. I have saluted the president for his initiative to make progress towards something that can be
a ceasefire, and an end to this terrible conflict. It is a complex picture, but it needs political will and push. And we have exchanged ideas on that.
And then, I think the president and his team have been open to hear our perspectives and on trade.
We have also emphasized that. We can benefit, both of us, by trading and we can be complimentary and we can find good solutions. But first of all, I
appreciate Mr. President, the spirit and the tone of this conversation, which has been a continuation of a very strong partnership.
TRUMP: Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Any questions? Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) have you spoken about the tariffs that you want to impose on Norway? Is there a chance that you can lower --
TRUMP: We spoke about trade and we understand each other very well. I think we'll have no problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that you'll get an agreement?
TRUMP: I think we'll have no problem whatsoever with Norway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) possible visit to Norway? Did you to discuss a popup visit for President Trump or --
TRUMP: We didn't, but I would -- I love it. I mean, I've been there and it is a beautiful place. They have --
STORE: And I told the president that, you know, he's receiving us early in the term, he's welcome to visit Norway. We would like to have him. And it
will be another way of emphasizing this strong friendship.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Norway has been a staunch supporter of Ukraine since the Russian invasion in 2022. Has something been discussed here today that
have -- may have altered your views on things?
TRUMP: No. We want to -- very simply, I have. no allegiance to anybody. I have allegiance to saving lives, and I want to save a lot of lives. A lot
of young people's, mostly young people. It's the war. It's the soldiers. And if we can do that -- I've also -- as you know, I got started because
the money that's been spent on this war is insane. It should have never happened, and it would've never happened if I were president. But Biden
spent $350 billion on this. And it's a shame.
And that's what got me involved. And then I looked at -- and I see the results, it's horrible. It's a killing field. 5,000 soldiers a week on
average. And we want to stop that. We both want to stop --
[14:00:00]
END
