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Amanpour
Interview With Gaza Parish Priest Father Carlos Ferrero; Interview With IRC Afghanistan Country Director Sherine Ibrahim; Interview With "Retrograde" Playwright Ryan Calais Cameron; Interview With "Conclave" Director Edward Berger. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired April 25, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FATHER CARLOS FERRERO, GAZA PARISH PRIEST: For all of us and for this -- the people was a big encouragement to know that the pope himself is calling
us every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Gaza grieves Pope Francis. I speak with a priest there about nightly calls from the Vatican.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERINE IBRAHIM, IRC AFGHANISTAN COUNTRY DIRECTOR: We are no longer able to do any kind of programming, humanitarian or otherwise, with U.S. government
funds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- as the White House slashes foreign aid, the real-life impacts have felt in Afghanistan. The International Rescue Committee, Sharine
Ibrahim, joins me from Kabul.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN CALAIS CAMERON, PLAYWRIGHT, "RETROGRADE": For me as an artist, you know, at one point it is like, wow, my play is really relevant. And also,
she's really scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- Playwright Ryan Calais Cameron brings us back to 1950s Hollywood and Sidney Poitier's formidable fight against McCarthyism.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome, (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems the responsibility for the conclave falls upon you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- "Conclave," the award-winning movie that lifted the veil on how the Catholic Church selects a new pope. My conversation with Director
Edward Berger.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
It's been a week of mourning and reflection after the death of Pope Francis on Monday. His legacy will be as a bridge in the great church struggle
between conservative and more liberal reforms, but also, most importantly, an increasingly lonely voice for humanity and a moral authority, a pontiff
who put his flock first, engaging with Catholics all over the world, even a tiny population living in the midst of war-torn Gaza.
From the beginning, Francis condemned the Hamas attack on Israel, called for the hostages release and spoke against rising antisemitism. He was an
outspoken critic as well of Israel siege on the enclave, repeatedly calling for an end to the conflict and the human suffering in Gaza.
And for the last 18 months of his life, he called Gaza's only Catholic church every night. The final one on Saturday lasted 30 seconds, just
enough time to say hello and asked if everyone was OK.
Now, one of those parish priests, Father Carlos Ferrero, joins me from Gaza. Father Carlos Ferrero, welcome to the program. How are you feeling
right now?
FATHER CARLOS FERRERO, GAZA PARISH PRIEST: Hello, everybody, and thank you for inviting us here. We are well. We are affected, of course, by the
situation and by the news. We know Pope Francis passed away, and the church is now mobilizing on prayers for Pope Francis' eternal rest, but also for
the election of the new pope. Those are the purposes of our prayers all the time.
But in very particular way, we are praying for peace. We are praying for this situation to stop, that a lot of humanitarian help needed maybe come
in and that we may have a way forward.
AMANPOUR: You know, Father, you talk about humanitarian aid. Every day we get a message from the people of Gaza and the Palestinian people saying
that, you know, it's now more than 50 days of a total siege, no bread, no water, no medicine.
How is that affecting your Christian community there, your Catholic community, and everybody else who you are in touch with?
FERRERO: Yes. Well, that is a real problem because, you know, I learned since I was here, I'm almost -- in 15 days I will be one full year inside
here, the compound with all the refugees, we are about nearly 500 people now.
And here, the traditional way of eating is with bread. You know, sometimes we use bread to accompany the food we are eating, but I could see that many
people here, most of the people, they eat bread with the food that they are having. So, not having bread is a really shocking, is a real need for the
people.
AMANPOUR: You know, it was notable that one of Pope Francis, in fact, maybe his last call that was lasting only 30 seconds, asked, you know, people,
were they eating? What were they eating? He was pretty concerned about your daily needs.
[13:05:00]
FERRERO: Yes, in indeed he was. Every time he call, he say, how are you, talking to Father Youssef or to one of us, how are you first? Then the
sister. And then he will say, how is the people? How are the people? Are they OK? Are they happy? Are they -- what do they need? And like this,
every time in every call. And the last time he called was on Saturday, the Holy Saturday for us. And he asked the same questions, of course.
AMANPOUR: Father, how did this start? What made the pope decide every single night at 8:00 p.m. he would call the Catholic community in Gaza?
FERRERO: He understood that here in Gaza, because of the war situation, and having a Christian community so small compared to the general population.
Imagine it's 2.3 million inhabitants here in Gaza and we are only 1,000 and something Christians.
Nowadays, we are even less because some have gone out, some have -- being killed or died, you know. So, the community is very small. And I'm sure he
thought we were in need to have a company worth encouragement like that. For all of us and for the people was a big encouragement to know that the
pope himself is calling us every day. People came to say this -- when it was reaching 8:00 p.m. people -- local time, they would say, this is the
hour of the pope. The hour of the pope. And try to come close to the priest -- yes, to the priestly house to hear something about the call.
And sometimes in the video calls we also greet the pope. We show the people were greeting the pope and the pope greeting the people or things like this
many times. So, it was really a pastoral thing. And I could say the patriarch of Jerusalem, Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa, did the same.
AMANPOUR: I want to read something that he said. He said -- this is the cardinal, I was very surprised that they were the ones who taught me a
lesson, talking about your parishioners there. I will never forget their steadfast faith carried with heartwarming smiles left a mark on me and my
life. I saw hope and optimism in their eyes. They told me we will stay here as long as the church stands with us. We are not afraid. And he said, the
cardinal, I was really impressed by the attitude.
It was such a courageous and faithful attitude under siege and bombardment and war. What have you learned from the people who you've shared this last
year with?
FERRERO: They trust in the church a lot. They -- you know, the issue that the pope was calling or the patriarch was so close and they call this the
House of Jesus. So, they say, let us a refuge there. We take refuge in the House of Jesus, you know.
We are in a -- where do we go, where -- there's no any secure place, safety place here in Gaza now. And so -- but they say, well, we be better be in
the House of Jesus. You know, that's amazing. This is what we call in the gospel language, we say the simplicity of the faith. We believe. We believe
God is protecting us. We believe God has given us the angels to accompany and protect us, and all the people are having that.
AMANPOUR: Was your church spared bombardment? Obviously, so many mosques were bombed. So, many civilian structures, hospitals, schools, et cetera,
were bombed. All the Israelis saying they were looking for Hamas. Was your church spared?
FERRERO: Our compound was bombed -- bombarded also in the time -- I think it was January 2024 when they bombed the side of the -- what do you call
it, Home of Peace, where the sisters of Mother Teresa have of Calcutta have a home of disabled children. They're still there. They are 50 people. And a
tank threw bomb there and they destroyed the generator. They destroyed the fuel tank. They destroyed part of the building.
And then, in that month also, December or January, we had snipers around our compound. But I was not inside yet. I came in May, but we know this for
a fact. And they shot dead two people inside our compound, you know. The old lady who came out of the room going to the toilet and then she was
shot. And when the daughter saw that she tried to help the mother and then the second person was shot again.
AMANPOUR: And these were snipers from who? From where?
FERRERO: From the IDF, you know, Israeli Defense Force. Yes.
[13:10:00]
AMANPOUR: OK. Well, listen, Father, you are all very, very strong and you are committed, and we are really pleased to have your perspective and to be
able to talk to you, particularly your reflections about what the pope did for you for all these many, many months of this terrible, terrible war.
Thank you, Father.
FERRERO: God bless you. Thank you. Thank you for inviting us.
AMANPOUR: At the time of the incidents, the IDF told CNN that it was investigating them and it was operating against Hamas terrorists in the
area.
And in Pope Francis' final Easter message the day before he died, he prayed for, quote, "the light of peace to radiate throughout the holy land and the
entire world." But there is no end in sight for this war on Gaza as Israel's far-right finance minister, Smotrich, says bringing the hostages
back is not the most important goal, destroying Hamas remains the priority.
Later in the program, "Retrograde" the West End Play showcasing Sydney Poitier's battle against the Red Scare. I speak with the playwright Ryan
Calais Cameron about the uncanny parallels today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. Secretary of State Marco Rubio has announced major plans to overhaul the State Department, including closing an office
advancing American values abroad, as well as nearly 30 overseas embassies and consulates. Another blow to America's soft power around the globe.
Meantime, much of the world is already suffering from Trump's crippling cuts to USAID, the foreign aid agency that provides nearly half the Globe's
humanitarian relief, or it did. One of the worst hit is Afghanistan. Medical services are dwindling, millions of facing malnutrition. And
Sherine Ibrahim is the International Rescue Committee's Country director for Afghanistan, overseeing 22 clinics. She joined me from there to discuss
the devastating impacts, especially for the most vulnerable, the women and the children.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Sherine Ibrahim, welcome to the program.
SHERINE IBRAHIM, IRC AFGHANISTAN COUNTRY DIRECTOR: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: We find you in Kabul.
IBRAHIM: That's correct.
AMANPOUR: How dire is the situation for the people of Afghanistan right now? It's said that some 23 million people need humanitarian assistance.
IBRAHIM: So, Christiane, you're absolutely right, 23 million and counting of people, whether men, women, or children need humanitarian assistance.
But on top of that, we know that approximately 16 million people are dire food insecurity situations and approximately 14 million alone cannot access
basic health needs.
As you know, Afghanistan is coming out of decades of conflict, economic instability, Asia's largest displacement crisis. And on top of all of that,
as I want to allude to we also have the sixth largest climate vulnerable country in the world. So, all of that coupled together makes for a very
difficult situation.
AMANPOUR: So, Sherine, the aid has stopped because America has stopped it. The USAID has been stopped in its tracks.
[13:15:00]
I just want to get it clear from you because depending on what day of the week you ask what American official, they say, well, actually, lifesaving
aid continues, and, oh, well, that you've told us has been defunded, but now, we're going to refund it. What is the facts? Because we hear that in
many parts of the world. That aid is not there and there's a lot of death and a lot of illness and a lot of other problems because that aid has been
so suddenly cut off.
IBRAHIM: So, last year alone, Christiane, the U.S. government and the people of the United States contributed almost 54 percent of all
humanitarian funding to Afghanistan to meet humanitarian needs. This year, that is no longer the case, and there's approximately $3 billion worth of
humanitarian needs that will not be met.
Today, clearly, there was a decision to stop the funding, to restart humanitarian lifesaving support. We proceeded to support women, children,
and our clients that we serve. And then more recently, that aid, whether humanitarian or not, has stopped. So, the facts that I know of as the
representative of the International Rescue Committee is that we are no longer able to do any kind of programming, humanitarian or otherwise, with
U.S. government funds.
AMANPOUR: It's really beggar's belief this and that the level of chaos in terms of the knowledge of what's going on or the disregard for what is
happening to these, you know, previous beneficiaries is really, really disheartening.
You've also -- you know, you go into clinics. I've been into many in Kabul where I assume they're in the best state, but what are you seeing in Kabul
and outside where even less sophisticated means are available?
IBRAHIM: So, just last week I was in Bati Kot in Nangarhar, one of the eastern provinces of Afghanistan. I visited one of the health clinics that
the U.S. government was supporting. One of the many health clinics supported around the country. I'm seeing a microcosm of what I shared,
which is difficulties to access basic health services. I met a lot of women who said to us that this is our lifeline. It is a free service that we have
relied on for many years. We travel one and a half, two hours to get here because it relieves us of having to pay for health support. But clearly,
these health clinics are quite overburdened.
When I was there on that day, the registry showed 150 women being served at that clinic for a range of issues that they come for, whether it's prenatal
care, postnatal care, vaccinations for their children, nutritional advice, psychosocial support, midwifery support, the range of options that are
provided by these health clinics are really critical because the nearest hospital is a -- has quite a distance. And the affordability obviously and
the medicines that are provided through the health clinics are critical for survival.
This lifesaving support must continue and we're committed to continuing it. Although, as I shared, we are disheartened by the fact that we are not able
to make -- meet this the scale of the need.
AMANPOUR: You've sent us some footage, which we're playing right now. Now, this shows of the Torkham Crossing, which is on the Pakistan border.
Thousands of Afghan refugees are now going back to Pakistan because of this skyrocketing new humanitarian needs since USAID has been cut off.
And as we've said, the U.N. World Food Programme says this could be a death sentence for millions. But let me ask you this. U.S. officials say the cuts
may also stoke conditions that prompt people to join any such extremist groups. The latest one, you know, being ISIS-K. Do you -- does that factor
into your situation too? I mean, do you know -- have you seen in the past when these kinds of, you know, lack of humanitarian assistance creates a
more radicalized population?
IBRAHIM: So, again, last week, I was at the Torkham Crossing. The situation in the camp that has been established is very dire. The camp is receiving
3,000 to 5,000 individuals crossing every day. But what I'm also seeing is that they're quick to find options to leave the camp. The camp conditions
are very difficult and they know that they have to move out very quickly.
[13:20:00]
So, many people decide to connect with loved ones in other parts of Afghanistan. Whether or not, you know, these conditions are, you know,
bearable, people are, you know, happy is very difficult to ascertain right now because of the very quick flow in and out. But the conditions in the
camp are very difficult. And I would hope that -- and one of our calls for support is really a call to say, help us to stabilize and help us to give
hope and help us to normalize, you know, the conditions for people so that they can settle in safety. And so, that insecurity does not prevail.
And one of the ways we can do that is to ensure that people are able to access livelihoods, they have safe shelters. You know, it is an opportunity
to help stabilize rather than, you know, push people to more radical alternatives.
AMANPOUR: And it is kind of extraordinary because it condemns a whole nation in what's known as collective punishment. When the State Department
says that it's not restarting funding in Yemen or Afghanistan because, quote, "credible and longstanding concerns that funding was benefiting
terrorist groups, including the Houthis and the Taliban."
You know where the funding is going in Afghanistan, right, and you know, I guess, who's getting it. How do you respond to that?
IBRAHIM: So, I mean, we have systems in place. We have criteria in place. We have monitoring mechanisms in place to ensure that when we do outreach,
when we do selection, when we do aid provision, it is really for the most needy. I mentioned the health clinics where we work with women and
children. The situation for them is very dire.
And so, our monitor -- our eye criteria, our monitoring mechanisms, our distribution mechanisms, and our post distribution follow up, which is what
we do to look at where the aid is going and how it's benefiting people is very tight and we are very satisfied with those mechanisms and we can, you
know, assure the public that the money is being very well spent in the right places for those who need it most.
AMANPOUR: What would you say, because, obviously, I've seen all these sacks of USAID aid and each one says a gift of the people of the United States.
And now, I don't know how people are thinking about the United States since that lifesaving gift has been yanked away from them. What would you say, if
you could, to the Trump administration or the people of the United States about the needs?
IBRAHIM: Well, first I would say to the people of the United States that the tradition of U.S. generosity, especially from the U.S. public, is one
that needs to continue. It is not one that is forgotten, in fact, it is well recognized and it is often called a lifeline of support. So, it is
very well received and very well respected and appreciated.
I would say to the U.S. -- the people of the United States, please remember that this is a humanitarian crisis, that people are deserving of
humanitarian support, that this is -- the global community needs to recognize that this is a country that requires support, stabilization. So,
that the issues of today are not exacerbated.
I -- you know, I don't comment on politics, but I certainly comment on the humanitarian imperative of the global community to come together and
continue to support the people of Afghanistan.
AMANPOUR: And obviously, we know, and you alluded to it, that the people who suffer the most are the ones whose rights are really trampled, and that
is women and girls. What is happening right now? I mean, what are women able to do publicly and maybe behind the scenes?
IBRAHIM: Well, so you may know, Christiane, that there has been -- have been several directives preventing women from working and preventing women
-- young girls from accessing school above a certain age. But there are obviously rays of hope, glimmers of hope here and there in terms of our
ability to reach young girls, to provide them with the necessary support in terms of education, as well as to support women as they develop their
businesses at home.
[13:25:00]
Women, as you know, are powerful, resourceful, and we want to continue to encourage that through whatever small businesses and entrepreneurial
efforts that they have. So, unfortunately, it is somewhat restricted for women in Afghanistan. There are bans on work and forms of education.
However, we are able to find ways in -- creative ways in which we are able to reach and support women and girls.
Obviously, not at the scale as we -- that we would like. We recognize as well -- last year, I believe the World Bank issued a study that said that,
you know, the GDP of Afghanistan in the next decade could be revitalized by 30 to 40 percent if women were allowed to back into the labor market.
So, there is great potential. We'd love to capitalize on that potential and we would hate to see, women and girls continue to be, you know, set aside
from labor opportunities, education opportunities, health opportunities, and all other opportunities in life.
AMANPOUR: One of the tragic byproducts of the U.S. administration's basic negotiation just for the Taliban in order to get out of Afghanistan. Thank
you so much, Sherine Ibrahim.
IBRAHIM: Thank you, Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Next, we turn to a dark time in American history rearing its ugly head again, McCarthyism in the 1950s where the hunt for communists led to
blacklist, exiles, and ruined lives. Its backdrop to a new play here in London by Ryan Calais Cameron, one of Britain's most exciting playwrights.
"Retrograde" takes an episode in the early life of Sidney Poitier, the groundbreaking Hollywood actor who became the first black man to win the
Oscar for best actor. But before all that, Poitier had faced a career breaking dilemma and a very ugly choice.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Ryan Calais Cameron, thank you for coming in.
RYAN CALAIS CAMERON, PLAYWRIGHT, "RETROGRADE": Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: From a busy schedule with this new hit West End play. The thing is, I was astonished to read that you didn't even know who Sidney Poitier
was --
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- when you started.
CAMERON: Yes, about a decade ago I had heard of him. I knew he was something -- someone that was really important, but I wasn't educated on
this man. I didn't know he is brilliance or how much of a trailblazer he was, or how significant he was about to be to my life. You know, I'm not --
AMANPOUR: And you hadn't seen any of his films?
CAMERON: No, I hadn't. I'd seen clips, you know, black and white stuff. I think I was at a stage of my career where I was like, anything black and
white, I was like, oh, that's old. You know. I didn't realize --
AMANPOUR: Now, you appreciate it?
CAMERON: Oh, I appreciate it a lot more. Exactly.
AMANPOUR: So, what made you choose Sidney Poitier? I mean, literally, if anybody sees the play, which they do, "Retrograde," it's a case study about
McCarthyism through essentially one day just about, a meeting in an office with Sidney Portier.
CAMERON: Between 90 minutes. Yes, yes, yes. For me, it was a case of like I hate not understanding something, you know? I hate feeling ignorant. So,
for me, it was, I don't know about this man, but he seems to have such significance and importance to a lot of people. That's the beginning of my
research.
You know, and I was researching a lot of stuff, and the more I researched, the more I was fascinated by him. And I came across this article that he
was speaking with Oprah about -- one time that he was in NBC. And he almost got blacklisted. And I was like, what? I'd heard about the blacklisted and
so much of my part of the artist, I knew that kind of stuff, but I never heard of it from the perspective of a black actor, someone that was already
dealing with Jim Crow, redlining, and then now this, I was like -- that to me sounds like the beginnings of the story.
And as I continued to read about what happened to him through his memoirs, you know, it started to sound more like a thriller. And I was like, OK,
someone's got be writing this.
AMANPOUR: But you know, it is -- I said to my team, I said I was on the edge of my seat because I know a lot about this stuff. I had no idea
whether he was going to submit or not.
CAMERON: Exactly. Exactly.
AMANPOUR: So, now's let's get to it. So, now, let's start with one of the early monologues from -- or dialogues from the play. So, he's in the
meeting with the writer who's going to make him the star of an NBC program that's going to skyrocket his career.
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And there's the company lawyer, or the production guy.
CAMERON: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: And he says, yes, but. So, here's what Sidney Poitier says about the script that's just been handed to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm leafing through the script. I'm like, Marty, I don't understand. I don't understand what the part is. He says, buddy, it's
Tommy. He's offered you, Tommy. See, I think about that moment a lot. I didn't even assume when being offered something even from a friend, that I
would be one of the central storytellers without caricature or stereotype.
See, I love this movie, because it brings something otherworldly that people like yourself cannot even fathom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: So, there he was expressing his joy and delight to be getting this leading role.
CAMERON: Yes, yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: And then they tell him, but actually it comes with some very ugly strings attached.
CAMERON: Exactly. It comes out of price.
AMANPOUR: So, the price is?
CAMERON: His soul. You know, it's everything that he is, that made him who he is. He's integrity. You know, and he has to sell out or he has to give
the name of -- I'm trying not to give too much away, but he has to give the name of Paul Robeson, who is a massive giant of a man and icon to him. And
he has to consider what is more important to him, his integrity, or moving along in this industry that he's a newcomer in. And there's a lot more
stakes than that, but, yes. I want people to see it.
AMANPOUR: Yes. No, because it really is, you don't really know if you don't know the full story.
CAMERON: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: And you know that so many did sell out, people, and so many people were blacklisted. Charlie Chaplin, for instance, was blacklisted.
CAMERON: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: Could never -- pretty much, could never work again after that.
CAMERON: Yes, yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: So, it was really serious.
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And a lot of actors, like a Sidney Poitier who had no money and had a family and kids, they really -- they couldn't afford.
CAMERON: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: And then, it moves on. And we'll get to the -- I don't know whether -- the spoiler alert or what, but there is a moment in the play
where he talks about, and you -- well, you wanted to pay homage to something Sidney Poitier had done in an actual film called "The Heat of the
Night." When he stared down and actually engaged in some physical retaliation.
CAMERON: Yes, yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: So, tell us what you were trying to do with that.
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to play the clip. This is "In The Heat of the Night," Sidney Poitier, and the plantation owner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNEY POITIER, ACTOR: We were just trying to clarify some of the evidence. Was Mr. Colbert ever in this greenhouse, say last night about midnight?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So --
CAMERON: That slap is the slap that echoes through generations to me. You know, I feel like where -- whoever you are, whatever walk of life, whatever
decade you feel the weight of that. And I can't imagine what it felt like for an audience seeing that at that time, you know, somebody that is being
-- you know, he's in a position where he is always going to be oppressed or he is going to be the side character was whatever, and he is like, I've had
enough, I've slapping back, you know, and I was like, I need to get that moment in this.
AMANPOUR: And how did you get it in, for those who haven't seen it?
CAMERON: Yes, I think it's about Sidney taking ownership over his image and over the path that he's going to take. And the moment in the play where he
truly becomes the man that he was born to be, you know.
And he gets -- he gets one over on the -- on the big bad guy in this play, Mr. Parks which night after night gets a massive applause from the
audience. But I was trying to recreate, you know, every time I watched that slap, you know, it does that to an audience. And I was at (INAUDIBLE) fight
earlier on this year and everyone cheered again. And I was like, I want that essence in my play, you know, of everybody coming together and going,
yes. The good guy gets his own back at some point, you know.
AMANPOUR: And again, it is really awful what they were asked to do, whether they were black or white or man or women, you know, they were told to
disavow any kind of political affiliation. In his case, civil rights, Martin Luther King.
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And then, as you said, denounced.
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And Paul Robeson actually did advocate communism for black people over capitalism. Having seen the failure of capitalism in America for black
people. He had gone to the Soviet Union. So, again, this is the creative tension throughout.
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Did you write -- I mean, you didn't write it with today in mind, but when you see what's happening in the United States today --
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- with all of this actually they're calling it like a new Red Scare what's happening on American campuses --
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- and you know, et cetera.
CAMERON: Do you know what? I did my first draft in 2018, right. So, there were a lot of things in my head when I was writing it of like, if we don't
rectify some of the things that we're seeing today, guys, in the future, we might actually get somewhere that looks a lot like the world in
"Retrograde."
You know, flash forward five years' time and we're there. So, there's certain lines now that when they hit, audiences are like, did you write
that today? Do you know what I mean? And it's like, for me as an artist, you know, at one point it is like, wow, my play is really relevant and
also, this is really scary. This is really scary. Because when I was writing it, I was like, it -- you know, it was almost like a fever dream
and now it's reality.
So, yes, it is in a title "Retrograde," you know, it's like if we don't learn from some of the things in our past, then we're due to repeat them.
AMANPOUR: And you've been -- you've spoken a lot about being inspired by a lot of Americana, American history, American culture.
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You've taken your work to the United States. Did the previous one go "Black Boys."
CAMERON: No, that's not -- play -- I played (INAUDIBLE) had gone twice.
AMANPOUR: Fine.
CAMERON: Yes, yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: So, would you today want to take this play to the United States in this climate?
[13:35:00]
CAMERON: I think this play belongs in the United States. It feels like, you know, when I wrote it, it had New York in mind. It's got its essence there.
The characters are there, it breathes that kind of, like you're saying, Americana. And I think it's like you were saying, its more relevant now
than it's ever been. So, yes, I think that (INAUDIBLE) for that.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And I'm fascinated by also what you said about, you know, you were kind of an up-and-coming playwright when you started. And there
was a program, a philanthropic program that enabled you to actually keep writing.
CAMERON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Tell me about it, because I don't think it exists elsewhere.
CAMERON: It's the office adopt playwright award. That is created by Sophie and Diana. And the intention of it was -- is really -- was really looking
at an industry where playwrights often get forgotten. I don't even have enough money for rent. And it's kind of going, OK, cool. We're not going to
forget about you. We're going to create a community where we're going to hold you, adopt you in a sense, and raise money to be able to allow you to
write a play.
You know, getting commissions are so difficult nowadays, but they give you -- at the time when I did it, which was 2018, you know, it was 8,000 pounds
to be able to write a play and like, I might as well have been a millionaire that year. You know, it was like, you're paying me to write,
and that gave me the time and the space to be able to do my research. I couldn't have done it. It was -- I couldn't have done the vibe.
AMANPOUR: And this award Adopt a Playwright is not just for minorities?
CAMERON: Oh, no, no, no. It's for anybody that's going from any type of hardship, any writer that needs any type of help. Definitely look it up.
Adopt a Playwright Award. Yes.
AMANPOUR: I mean, it brought us this play. You said you wouldn't have written it otherwise.
CAMERON: Exactly. And they're always looking for donations. So --
AMANPOUR: Yes. Masculinity. Your previous play for "Black Boys" was about masculinity. And particularly in the black young community.
CAMERON: Yes, yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: And of course, adolescence and a lot of that is coming out now, talking about masculinity. How do you -- what's your commentary on that?
How do you think that story is being told and where your play fits in, I guess?
CAMERON: I suppose, for me, as an artist, I always try and -- you know, I'm trying to grab the narrative and go, well, what's my 2 cents on it? You
know, and even in something like for "Black Boys," you know, it took 10 years because half of it is me writing as a very young man and the second
is me as a bit of an older man, you know, as a father. Someone in my community talking to that younger man.
And I think for me, the narrative often is about, look how bad these kids are. And I feel like we should also look at the community in which these
kids are trying to survive in, you know, the parents, whether it's the schools, whether it's the police, and go, well, what is our job? And I
think that's a bigger narrative. How are we nurturing these children? And what influences are they getting of masculinity, you know? If you're in a
violent environment and men are very violent in that environment, then no wonder why this kid is acting in that kind of way or the way that men speak
about women.
AMANPOUR: Do you feel that it is actually now part of the conversation in a way that you hoped when you wrote your play?
CAMERON: A hundred percent. You know, again, seeing adolescents recently with my family, you're going, OK, this is something else that's kind of
breathing more life into this conversation. And I suppose, you know, for -- when -- once you watch a piece of art like that the next thing is will now,
as a community, what do we do about it, you know?
AMANPOUR: And you have four sons as we discussed last time.
CAMERON: Exactly, exactly. So, it's very important for me to be able to show them positive outlets for them to be able to be men, but also, they'll
do it in a very positive way, you know. We talk about toxic masculinity and a lot. So, that's great, but what's the antithesis of that? You know, what
does positivity look like?
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, an amazing play and not giving away the spoiler. Does Sidney Poitier accept these ugly strings or not?
CAMERON: Oh, I can't tell you that. I can't tell you that. But it is on that (INAUDIBLE) right now. So --
AMANPOUR: No, it's really great. Ryan Calais Cameron, thanks so much.
CAMERON: Thank you. As always, thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And the play is on now at London's Apollo Theater Until June. Coming up after the break, the real-life upcoming conclave and my
conversation with movie director Edward Berger, whose award-winning film "Conclave" gives us his cinematic view into one of the Catholic churches'
most secret traditions.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back. We turn now to a movie which takes you deep inside the Vatican's corridors of power, and it couldn't be more relevant.
"Conclave" swept up in this year's award season. Based on the book by Robert Harris is a gripping thriller about the secretive process of
choosing a new pope. It has a star-studded cast, Ralph Fiennes, John Lithgow, Stanley Tucci, and Isabella Rossellini. And viewership shot up
almost 300 percent the day Pope Francis died.
I spoke with the film's director, Edward Berger, here in London when the film was first released.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Edward Berger, welcome to the program.
EDWARD BERGER, DIRECTOR, "CONCLAVE": Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: What was it, when you read the book or the script, that made you want to do it? The intrigue, the sort of richness of this, and the
corruption involved?
BERGER: Well, to me, it played in a very similar field to what you're doing every day, reporting on politics. It was -- it's a political film for me.
It had all the political intrigue of it. So, I found that very interesting. But, obviously, in a setting that we can sort of transpose, so we don't
have to see another political film when we see the news every day, so we can transpose.
But there was one line in the script that I really loved and it said -- in the stage direction, not even a dialogue, it said, out of the crooked
timber of humanity, no string -- straight thing was ever made. And that was sort of really what we wanted to say with the film that everyone has this -
- something crooked, you know.
AMANPOUR: And boy do we see it, because this, of course, is the conclave that leads to the election of another pope after the other one is dead.
It's an endless and historical event, and yet, we very rarely see it portrayed. You certainly don't see it in reality.
Where did you get your evidence or your stories about how to film it? Is it -- is the actual conclave true to life?
BERGER: I think we have to ask a cardinal, because those are the only ones that will be really able to tell us, but they won't because it's obviously
secret. They're probably just watching and go like, oh, this is right. And so, I think Robert Harris is obviously a very wonderful novelist and a
great researcher. And we had access to all his research. We talked to a whole array of cardinals who gave us signs (ph).
And then, I had a really great religion teacher next to me from Rome, Francesco Bonomio (ph), every single day, and he was my adviser, and he
told me this is what they would do. This is -- now, this is the prayer, this is the oath, this is the way they vote. But at some point, he also
said, you know what? No one knows. So --
AMANPOUR: What we know, because I've reported on at least one election of a pope, is it's the black smoke and the white smoke. The white smoke --
BRUNHUBER: That smoke, everyone.
AMANPOUR: Everybody knows it, right? So, we wait and wait. And there's several rounds in this film until you get -- or until they get, the
cardinals get to a super majority to elect the next pope. What I found really interesting is the power struggle between reformist cardinals and
the very traditionalist cardinals. And that is portrayed, I think, pretty well in this clip which is Cardinal Lawrence. He is played by Ralph Fiennes
talking to Cardinal Bellini, who is played by Stanley Tucci. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RALPH FIENNES, ACTOR, "CONCLAVE": Father Bellini.
STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR, "CONCLAVE": Aldo.
FIENNES: Am I the last one?
TUCCI: Not quite.
FIENNES: How are you?
TUCCI: Oh, well, you know, fairly dreadful. Have you seen the papers? Apparently, it's already decided, it's going to be me.
FIENNES: And I happen to agree with them.
TUCCI: What if I don't want it? No sane man would want the papacy.
FIENNES: Some of our colleagues seem to want it.
TUCCI: What if I know in my heart that I'm not worthy?
FIENNES: You are more worthy than any of us.
TUCCI: I'm not.
FIENNES: Well, then until your support is not a vote for you, pass the chalice.
TUCCI: And let it go to him? Then I could never live with myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's interesting and it's also varied today. I mean, Pope Francis has been the reformer or at least tried to be, and he's had so
much pushback from cardinals who are much, much more traditional. Was that something you wanted to focus on?
BERGER: Definitely. I mean, we wanted to represent the current politics of the Vatican, but also current world politics, and they're almost the same,
you know, they're, I mean --
AMANPOUR: Explain that.
BERGER: Well, you know, there's traditionalist, what, populist movements, and there's sort of liberals all over the world, you know, and that -- and
these parties, they've sort of lost the ability to listen to each other, you know, and basically, everyone's a fundamentalist in their opinion and
they're not really communicating anymore. Everyone's, this has to be this way and the other party says it has to be this way, and they're clashing
constantly.
AMANPOUR: There's something I think you said about -- well, the Ralph Fiennes' character, Cardinal Lawrence, and the sort of, not demons, but the
conflicts he has within him about his beliefs, about prayer, about all sorts of things. That's also quite interesting to portray, because you
always think of these people as being absolutely clear in their faith and in their main storyline.
BERGER: Yes. And that's what really drew me to the film. Ralph has one wonderful speech about doubt versus certainty, and that's also liberalism
versus, you know, all opinions, you know, doubt versus certainty and about being very certain about what you believe in. And he's not right now.
And he wants to have a discussion and he wants to find it. And that's something I've really identified with and why I wanted to make the film,
because I think a lot of people feel that at some point in their lives, it's like, am I doing the right thing? Am I in the right job? Am I in the
right life? And trying to find your direction in life as does Ralph in the film. So, that's something for all us in a way.
AMANPOUR: It's obvious that all the Christian churches and many other religions, they face very deep internal problems, certainly in the Catholic
Church and recently, as you've seen here in the Church of England, very deep issues about sexual abuse, about the unaccountability of unelected
power, the resignations, the expulsions. How did you deal with that in this movie, if at all?
BERGER: Yes, it's not a movie about that.
AMANPOUR: No, I know.
BERGER: We didn't want to do a let's say an investigation of the -- it's really a different subject matter. So, we spoke about it and we hinted at
it because we obviously said, we can't do a movie without ever mentioning it. That would be sort of putting the blinders on. So, we mentioned it two
or three times throughout the movie. But there's other movies like "Spotlight" who really investigate that.
I think it's a subject matter where you need a whole movie to dedicate yourself and not just sort of a little topic on the side.
AMANPOUR: No, no, I understand. But for instance, you have one cardinal who is derailed because of a, quote/unquote, "MeToo incident." I mean, there's
-- and that's in itself a sort of conspiracy where another cardinal brings this young woman over, essentially to derail this black African cardinal's
chances. I thought that was very powerful because it talked about that issue, but it also, I think, subliminally there was, if I'm not mistaken,
commentary about, can we really have a first black -- a pope? So, that's an issue.
BERGER: Oh, definitely. I'm, you know, it's an issue in the church. You know, I think there's a lot of -- I mean, the church has a problem in the
way -- or the Catholicism has a problem that used to be all Italian until 50 years ago, there were like for 500 years, Italian popes. And there are a
lot of Italians and they're in the -- you know, there's maybe 50, 60 cardinals now, Italian cardinals. And obviously, they want their Italian
again. They hate anyone from any other country, you know, most of them at least.
And so, but their fraction is not big enough, you know to really vote Italian. So, that is always an issue, you know that -- you know, foreigners
in general in Italy is a difficult thing for the church to accept and then and having an African cardinal is probably, you know, the worst for some of
them, unfortunately.
AMANPOUR: So, I want to ask you, because, you know, we talked about reaction and stuff. I don't know whether you've heard or what you've seen
on audience reaction. What has been -- what have you noticed from audiences? Online or wherever?
BERGER: Well, I don't look.
AMANPOUR: No, OK.
BERGER: Because it's just -- so I'm glad that you can read it to me now.
AMANPOUR: Well, I'm actually going to read you a reaction from the church. It was released last month, as we know, in the United States. And as you
can imagine, in the United States, which has a significant faction of very traditionalist cardinals.
This bishop, Robert Barron, who's a Minnesota cardinal, tweeted this, and this is just bits of it. If you're interested in a film about the Catholic
Church that could have been written by the editorial board of The New York Times, this is your movie. Since it checks practically every woke box, I'm
sure it'll win a boatload of awards. But my advice is to run away from it as fast as you can. So, that's one.
And then there's Thomas Reese, who's a Jesuit, more liberal leaning. He told -- and he was a persistent critic of Pope Benedict, he told CNN, if
I'm not mistaken, the acting and production values were great, but the plot twists were bizarre and unbelievable. Answer those reactions.
[13:50:00]
BERGER: Well, you know, it's -- I mean, there's going to be a million opinions and the Catholic Church doesn't speak with one voice. As you can
see, everyone's going to have an opinion. And I would say, you know from -- I heard from a lot of cardinals before there's, oh, we're going to watch
the movie. And I believe that they're just going to enjoy it and going to say, it's just a movie, you know, as in terms of the plot twist.
And that, you know, I was speaking about fundamentalism earlier, especially in the U.S., I think the U.S. Catholics, U.S. in general, very often is
more fundamentalist than the European side, and I find it very hard to refute or discuss with fundamentals because they don't really actually want
to listen.
AMANPOUR: But they also have very vested interests. I mean, they really believe that the Catholic Church has to still be, I mean, probably speaking
Latin, and all of the congregants have to be speaking Latin. It is a power struggle. And then, there's the final twist. Are we going to talk about it
here?
BERGER: It's going to be difficult.
AMANPOUR: It is, isn't it?
BERGER: Well, I think what we can talk about is -- I mean, that there's, you know, obviously women don't have much of a voice in the church.
AMANPOUR: Actually, let's talk about that, because you're right. Isabella Rossellini, the wonderful actress, daughter of Ingrid Bergman, and I -- you
know, Ingrid Bergman did a famous film where she portrayed a nun, if I'm not mistaken.
BERGER: Yes. "The Bells of St. Mary's."
AMANPOUR: Oh, there you go. And suddenly, to see her daughter look so like her was really quite amazing. But she also stood up for women. She said,
you know, we may not have a voice, but we have ears. And she was very clear on trying to root out some of the Machiavellian power intrigues. But again,
for Catholics, it's like, when are we going to have women elected to some position at least of power in the church? That was something you thought
about.
BERGER: Absolutely. I mean, femininity is a really important part of this movie, even though -- even a person like Isabella, a person with the
biggest aura and charisma in the world is relegated to the 30th line, row in the back of the Catholic Church, having to be silent. And she finally
opens her voice and everyone kind of applauds her, at least in the audience, you know. But she's not the only thing of feminine -- not the
only element of femininity in the film.
AMANPOUR: When you say femininity, do you mean feminism or actual femininity?
BERGER: Femininity and feminism, you know.
AMANPOUR: OK.
BERGER: I mean, both, I would say.
AMANPOUR: I don't want to put words in your mouth.
BERGER: No, I would say femininity.
AMANPOUR: OK.
BERGER: The femininity element. But as there is no femininity in the Catholic Church, I would say that's a feminist voice, you know. And there's
something in the end and -- that we can't really talk about, but at least Ralph has seen a crack in the foundation of this old patriarchy. And
there's a light that shines through that crack. And that's that light is the change for hope -- the hope for change, you know, that the future is
possibly also feminine.
AMANPOUR: My goodness, this is really interesting and we're not going to say it, but I have to say, as a viewer, I mean, you ended it right there. I
mean, on a cliff, right? You have this big reveal and the film ends. And I'm like, oh, can we just have some more? What does this mean?
BERGER: Oh, the film could have been longer, OK.
AMANPOUR: Not about longer, maybe.
BERGER: Yes. Well, it means exactly that, you know, it's the oldest patriarchy in the world and possibly it's time for a change. You know, that
is not -- I mean, which structure has -- what has that? And I think to be open for that change and to open your doors towards, you know, the feminine
voice and voices from anywhere, I mean, would be quite interesting, you know, and, actually, you know, advantageous for the organization, I
believe.
AMANPOUR: Well, you can imagine that many Catholic women believe that as well. And finally, just the filming, obviously, "All Quiet on the Western
Front" was completely different look. This, you -- was a lot inside structures clearly, a lot of walking and whispering in corridors, but it
was a lot of light and shade that you used. Tell me about that. What was that to do?
BERGER: Well, there's a director called Alan Pakula who did a lot of political thrillers in the '70s. "All the President's Men" for example.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes.
BERGER: Great Washington Watergate scandal movie. And he works really well with precision and architecture and light and shade, and he was sort of the
inspiration for this movie. And I wanted to exact -- you know, do exactly the opposite than in "All Quiet," make it very sort of closed quarter. I
mean, feel the oppression, feel the claustrophobia of a conclave.
They're locked away for a few weeks. The shutters go down, the sound is off. You don't hear anything. You don't see anything from outside. So, that
by the end, when Ralph does see this hope for change, it's almost a relief when the shutters open and the air comes back in and the light comes back
in and you hear feminine laughter outside. Three nuns laughing.
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: That's how you end.
BERGER: And so, that's the end of the movie. Yes. And that's sort of maybe a little bit of a relief that we found progress.
AMANPOUR: Great. Well done.
BERGER: Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
BERGER: Thank you for watching it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And the real-life conclave for the next pope will begin in about two to three weeks.
That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
