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Amanpour
Interview with Finnish President Alexander Stubb; Interview with Journalist Christo Grozev; Interview with "Antidote" Director and Producer James Jones; Interview with The New York Times Technology Reporter David Yaffe-Bellany. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 09, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDER STUBB, FINNISH PRESIDENT: A lot of the American administration is rightly saying that time is running out, and that's why I think actually
we should go for an immediate ceasefire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: President Trump grows impatient with Russia's war on Ukraine. 80 years since VE Day, I discussed security in Europe today with the Finnish
President Alexander Stubb.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's one big puzzle. It was only when we cracked open the network that we understood the true scale of this secret killing
machine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- exposing Kremlin spies. My conversation with journalist Christo Grozev and filmmaker James Jones about "Antidote," their film,
about whistleblowers standing up to Putin.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY, TECHNOLOGY REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: The money that Trump and his family are generating through these crypto ventures is
the money that they simply have to do whatever they want with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Trump's growing crypto empire. The New York Times David Yaffe- Bellany investigates the Trump family's newest business venture.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London, where all this week people have been marking 80 years since the end of World War
II. Including Russia with a military parade commemorating the Soviet Union's role in defeating Nazi Germany. But there's no victory in sight for
Ukraine, still under brutal Russian attack for over three years.
President Donald Trump vowed to end the war in 24 hours, but months into his second term, negotiations have stalled. Trump's diplomacy has certainly
been on a rollercoaster, from restarting dialogue with the Kremlin to publicly arguing with President Zelenskyy to then signing a new minerals
deal with Ukraine.
So, where do negotiations stand now and can Europe take over the security burden? One man who might have an insight into Trump's tactics is the
Finnish president, Alexander Stubb. He spent hours golfing and meeting with Trump in March and was seated next to him at Pope Francis' funeral.
President Stubb joined me from Oslo.
President Stubb, welcome back to our program.
ALEXANDER STUBB, FINNISH PRESIDENT: Thanks for having me.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you first to put into context why you're in Oslo. You've got about 10 NATO members, I believe Ukraine, Zelenskyy is joining
by video. What is it you're discussing particularly in the context of what looks to be a kind of a new version of a trans -- well, I don't know,
figuring out the Transatlantic Alliance if there still is one?
STUBB: Well, it's something called JEF. So, the Joint Expeditionary Force. And it was an idea that was put forward by the United Kingdom, actually
before Finland and Sweden joined NATO. And here we are, a Nordic states, three Baltic states, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom, and basically,
looking at what we can do together in the Arctic region and in the Baltic Sea. So, it's not a new concoction, but we work together on different types
of security issues. Very useful forum.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, it is -- it may not be a new concoction and now you are part of NATO. This was, you know, as you said, suggested before that. But
it comes in the context of an entirely new disposition by the United States under President Trump, who is seen to be straining the transatlantic
alliance, throwing a lot more responsibility on you all in Europe.
Can I just first start by asking you, what was your conversation like when you met President Trump and spent hours golfing with him and talking to
him, you know, in March I think it was? What did you say to each other that gives you clarity or maybe confidence about NATO and the Transatlantic
Alliance?
STUBB: Yes. I guess the starting point is to say what happens in the golf course stays in the golf course.
AMANPOUR: No, no, no. It needs go worldwide.
STUBB: But it does give you context. I mean -- so, basically, on a golf course, a lot of it is of course social, but it did give us an opportunity
to discuss a few issues. Of course, we talked about bilateral things. So, Finland and the U.S. We talked about NATO. And at the time, we also talked
about Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine.
[13:05:00]
So, it's normal sort of diplomatic discourse that you're able to do in these kinds of situations. And I guess this the job of presidents, to try
to influence each other and have conversations.
I do say one thing though, there's nothing so far that I have heard from the president or the president's administration or people around him, which
would sort of reduce the commitment of the United States to NATO. Quite the contrary, the Americans are pushing the Europeans and the other allies to
take more responsibility, and I think the Americans are right for doing it.
AMANPOUR: That's fine. But you know, I'm going to get back to that in a minute. But also, President Trump, you know, after a certain period of
reaching out to Putin, trying to draw him in with honey, if you like, kind of blaming President Zelenskyy for all of this. He appears to be having a
change of heart, at least publicly after the Vatican meeting. And I believe you were sat next to President Trump during the funeral, the whole
alphabetic thing.
He said, there was no reason for Putin to be shooting missiles into civilian areas, cities, and towns makes me think that maybe he doesn't want
to stop the war. He's just tapping me along, and has to be dealt with differently. Then in the last 24 hours, J. D. Vance said, Russia is, quote,
"asking for too much in concessions."
Do you think they're having, I don't know, a moment of clarity, a change of heart?
STUBB: Well, I think, you know, peace negotiations and negotiations about ceasefire are always very complex, and there's always a road that you take
and you have different steps on the road. And I think in the beginning, the Americans rightly tried to convince the Russians to join the negotiating
table. But now, I think the response that we're seeing from Russia is haphazard or actually negative. And now, a lot of the American
administration is rightly saying that time is running out.
And that's why I think actually we should go for an immediate ceasefire. The Americans have suggested it. The Ukrainians have agreed to it. The
Europeans support it. And the only one who doesn't want peace actually is Russia. I actually think the Americans want peace more than anything else.
And now, the tactic might be changing a little bit.
AMANPOUR: And how do you see it playing out then? I mean, we are speaking in the context of Russia having its, you know, its own VE Day, remembering
the great war as they call it. President Xi has come to stand shoulder to shoulder with President Putin on the reviewing stand in the Kremlin.
Actually, President Lula is expected there, of Brazil, as well.
But the Xi-Putin thing is a very clear message. I mean, they have a bridge. They have presented themselves, to an extent, as a kind of anti-U.S., anti-
Western axis, and they clearly are looking for some space to jump into if the U.S. abandons global leadership. Just describe what you think Russia
and China are up to.
STUBB: Well, it's difficult to say. It's a little bit of a back and forth. You have to remember that in the early 1990s the Russian and Chinese
economy were the same size. Now, China is over 10 times bigger. And to be very frank, Russia is extremely dependent on China, whether economically,
technologically, or militarily.
So, of course, China plays the geopolitical game and has one hand one card in the pocket of Putin. As far as Victory Day is concerned, I think it's
very symbolic obviously for the Russians, but I think it should also be very symbolic for the Ukrainians and for us that promote Western values.
So, I think at this stage, we really need to move forward. We are trying to make sure that we get this ceasefire and then start the peace negotiations.
But there is a bigger geopolitical game being held here. And I think, of course, anytime there's a power vacuum, someone is going to fill it. And
China is trying to do that at the moment. And I of course vote for the Americans to stay as engaged as possible.
AMANPOUR: So, you know, Russia and China agree on the need to, quote, "remove root causes of the conflict in Ukraine." That's obviously been code
for NATO enlargement, for all of those kinds of things. The New York Times has reported that Xi has cast the two leaders as defenders of a fair and
just world order. I mean, they're really staking their claim here.
STUBB: Well, to be honest, if they want to remove the root cause of the conflict, then they have to remove Russia because there is only one
aggressor in this war, and that is Russia and Putin. They could stop the war by a snap of their fingers just by withdrawing. They have illegally
tried to annex not only the Crimean Peninsula, but parts of Ukraine and now, up to about 20 percent of it.
[13:10:00]
So, if we want a fair and free world order, it should be based on international rules, norms, and institutions that have been set up in the
U.N. charter. And there's only one country which is blatantly, blatantly breaking the U.N. charter right now and is a root cause of this war, and
that is Russia. So, I would say what we're hearing from China and Russia is very much double speak.
AMANPOUR: And yet, President Trump himself and his administration spoke about potentially -- well, actually, they suggested that Ukraine would have
to give up Crimea, that Crimea would be legitimately recognized as Russian. And they also said that there would be some de jure or de facto recognition
of the areas, not only that Russia has occupied since 2014 inside Ukraine, but even those that it doesn't.
STUBB: Well, I can only speak obviously for Finland, and I can guarantee to you that we will never recognize the Crimean Peninsula as part of
Russia. We've had a similar experience, of course, with the Soviet Union taking roughly 10 percent of our territory after World War II, that came
after a peace settlement and a recognition.
But Crimea has been illegally recognized and there is no peace settlement at this stage yet. So, that's why I stress the importance of first stopping
the killing, which means a ceasefire, unconditional ceasefire. And after that, you start the actual peace negotiations. That is what the Ukrainians
want. That is what the Americans want. That is what the Europeans wants. But it is what Russia does not want at this particular stage.
As part of those peace negotiations, you start having conversations about territory, basically about compensation and about justice. But we need to
stop the killing first, and I think this what President Trump and the American administration is working hard on.
AMANPOUR: I mean, that is basic international diplomacy and moving from war to ceasefire to an end state, to -- but it just seems to be all sort of
kind of going in all sorts of different directions, including the idea of security guarantees. Do you think -- knowing what you know about what
happened to you all in Finland, do you think that there's any way to guarantee a peace if there are no security guarantees for Ukraine? Russia
says, forget about it. Europe says, hey, we'd like to be, you know, the foot soldiers, but we can't even barely muster 25,000, that's according to
a Times of London report. What do you think Europe can do?
STUBB: I think there's two steps in this one is membership in the European Union, which of course, in and of itself is not a security guarantee, but
it is, of course, not only a victory for Ukraine, but a loss for Putin because that by definition makes Ukraine European. And the second one is,
in the long run, NATO membership.
And in the meanwhile, we need to provide Ukraine with security guarantees. But I think people are sometimes talking in circles about this. Remember
that the most modern and largest army that we have in Europe right now is Ukraine. It has only over 800,000 soldiers. It has a capacity which not
many European states have.
So, what we can help in terms of security guarantees are about ammunition, providing intelligence, providing different types of instruments. So, it's
not so much about foot soldiers as such. So, I do think that Europe can provide security guarantees to Ukraine. But I would, of course, prefer
there always to be an American backstop, and I hope that is what we come out with at the end of the day.
AMANPOUR: Tell me about the importance of the minerals agreement, which has now been, you know, signed, sealed, and delivered.
STUBB: Yes, I think it's extremely important. It's, I think, one of these tipping points, I think also to the American approach, because now, the
United States has a clear stake in Ukraine, and that will, of course, you know, make them even more committed from what they have been before. And I
think people like Senator Lindsey Graham and then Secretary Scott Bessent have been working very hard on getting this deal.
And now, that we have it, I think the American attitude and approach will change, and I hope that the Russians understand this as well. So, I think
it was very important to get the mineral deal signed. And even more important, of course, that the Ukrainian parliament has now ratified it.
So, this could be a game changer in the Americans pushing for a ceasefire and peace negotiation.
AMANPOUR: And finally, I understand, you know, you world leaders have to tow a very, you know, delicate line, you have to -- you are heaping a lot
of praise on the United States, but your people are not so thrilled. They don't like this business of being insulted by the U.S. Europeans, we
understand, are sort of moving away from buying American.
[13:15:00]
And not only that, you still, despite your golf, have a 10 percent tariff from President Trump. How are you going to cope with that?
STUBB: Well, I think the ABC of diplomacy is that you work with a world that exists, not with a world which you wish that would exist, and then you
try to influence the things that you can influence. Remember, I come from a relatively small country, albeit with one of the largest militaries in
Europe and the one of the longest borders with Russia.
So, we feel that the way in which we have an impact is that we are relevant, we're relevant to our European allies, we're relevant to the
United States, and then we try to affect different world events, even though sometimes they don't go exactly the way in which we want it. So, we
are quite realistic in what we're trying to do in diplomacy.
AMANPOUR: OK. Very Finally, you probably saw the latest report that Finland is, you know, the happiest country in the world, you and your
saunas and your -- I don't know, what else. How do you account for that being the smallest with the longest Russian border and all the rest of it,
and with a 10 percent tariff?
STUBB: I think we Fins things are pretty down to earth. We have a very close attachment to nature. We have a very close attachment to equality and
we have a very close attachment to education and I think gives us quite a lot of happiness.
Sometimes we hide it quite well. But for all those who are a little bit skeptical, I just urge you to visit Finland, go to Lapland, go to the Lake
District, go to the Archipelago, and you see what happiness is made about.
AMANPOUR: All right. Well, that's a -- that is a tempting invitation. President Stubb, thank you very much indeed.
STUBB: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And later in the program, exposing Russian spy rings. I speak to the filmmaker of a new documentary, "Antidote," and the brave journalist
risking his life by standing up to Putin,
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: We turn now to a gripping new documentary about the brave whistleblowers standing up to Putin and his regime. "Antidote" follows
journalist Christo Grozev whose investigative work has exposed Russian spy rings and murderers. It's a chilling watch where we see Grozev working
under high pressure facing threats to his own life and forced separation from his family. Here's a moment where he describes being hunted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTO GROZEV, JOURNALIST: Well, apparently, I'm wanted by Russia. I'm on a federal search warrant list with no explanation what for, what the
charges are. And the only kind of clue to it is actually coming from a Russian state media outlet that says, oh, according to information we have,
from a source, then the police, Grozev if is charged with slander on the Russian Army.
[13:20:00]
When I returned to my home in Vienna, I was confronted immediately with the local police saying, no, no, no. We have to register pure security. It's
not -- life is not going to be like it was before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Christo Grozev knows all about danger because he made a film with Putin's chief critic, the late Alexey Navalny. And I sat down with
Christo and the film's award-winning director James Jones to discuss making this gripping thriller.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Christo, James, welcome to the program. "Antidote." I mean, there's so many levels and layers to the name of this film. There's a
little definition that we see. Tell me what it is and why it was important to put it in there.
GROZEV: I think that's the question for James.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
GROZEV: You came up with the name.
JAMES JONES, DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER, "ANTIDOTE": So, it's -- yes.
AMANPOUR: You came up with the name.
JONES: I came up with the name. And it's -- yes, it's a reference really to the idea, the film started off being about Putin's poison program and
exposing how they made the poisons, who they targeted, how they tried to assassinate people. And then, it kind of morphed, as time went by, into
being a film about the people who stand up to Putin and what you risk, what you sacrifice.
And so, antidote is a kind of unusually hopeful nod to the idea that there are some people who can counteract the poison inside Russia, that is Putin.
AMANPOUR: Christo, you've been trying to do this for a long, long time, doing this for a long time. First, you know, with Bellingcat, the open
source investigative, now you're with insider. You were working very closely with Alexey Navalny and you exposed a lot of these spies using
poison, et cetera. Where did this start for you, and especially here in the U.K.?
GROZEV: Yes, it started actually in 2014 when the initial invasion by Russia of Ukraine took place. And I was, at that time, a media manager with
the background in journalism, but not practicing journalism for decades. And I just focused on trying to make sense of this war and makes a sense of
the disinformation that was coming out from the Kremlin at the time. And I started to blog at that time.
And about the same time, MH-17, the Malaysian airline was shot down by somebody. And I started looking into who did that. And at that same time,
Eliot Higgins launched a Bellingcat. And we kind of merged forces at some point and started working together.
But MH-17 was the first investigation that caught my attention. And then, the Skripal poisoning was another one that I focused on. And over time,
that took more and more of my time as a hobby, it became a full-time hobby and then a job.
AMANPOUR: Did you ever think, even when you were this close to Alexey Navalny, the late Alexey Navalny now, that you would be implicated, that
somehow it'd come back to -- you know, because this about you, this like a thriller this film about how your investigations came back essentially to
target you and your family.
GROZEV: You've seen the film "Navalny," and you know how Alexey jokingly says a lot of truths and we don't take them seriously until they become
reality. He was jokingly saying, he's going to be killed.
AMANPOUR: About you.
GROZEV: About himself.'
AMANPOUR: About himself.
GROZEV: Yes.
AMANPOUR: That's right.
GROZEV: And he was. And when he was -- when we were parting ways, when he was flying back to Russia, he told me, Christo, you are now top of the list
for Putin to kill. And I said, yes, you must be kidding. He said no, no, no, I'm serious about that. So, he was the first one that gave me that
inkling, but I still didn't trust it. Because I had done a lot of other investigations before that -- the Skripal and many others.
It seems that the Navalny investigation, the investigation with the poisoning of Navalny 2020 was the trigger for Putin to actually decide to
put me on the kill list because he was extremely humiliating for Putin, because we made fun of his FSB, of his security service.
AMANPOUR: So, that brings me to the clip that you guys have given us. And I want to describe it because, you know, there's a point, as I said, where
we see the threat to you turn from abstract to real. So, their messages between these spies who are ordered to follow you across Europe and the
ringleader writes personally, I find Grozev not to be a very valuable target, but apparently, Putin seriously hates him. Why do you think that
is?
GROZEV: I think for two reasons. One is because we embarrassed him through that investigation. In that investigation, we actually controlled one of
his henchmen, one of the poisoners of Navalny, to talk to Navalny in a prank call and to confess to everything, and that contradicted Putin's own
statements that this was not the real thing, the poisoning.
And second it -- that investigation actually placed me on the Russian domestic political scene. I had to explain to Russian audiences on what, at
that time, existed as free media in Russia, what really had happened and how Putin had gone after tens of opposition leaders trying to kill them and
poison them. And that really -- a lot of -- people started believing me, and that made -- that seemed to be a threat to Putin.
AMANPOUR: So, now, I want to play the scene is when you first read these messages, the operatives essentially brainstorming your abduction. You'll
see reference, I'm just going to say this, Jan Marsalek. Is that right?
[13:25:00]
Referenced is a fugitive ringleader, and he's wanted by Interpol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GROZEV: Marsalek writes, if we would find someone we could contract for a suicide attack on him, that will be the best. Attacks him, cuts off his
head in the street and then blows up himself.
JONES: Jesus. Is this beyond -- I mean, you obviously knew headlines from the map, but is this --
GROZEV: No, this way beyond. I mean, they never told me what the plans were. They never told me that they went to my dad's part apartment other
than that photo they showed. But they seemed to have -- and the concept of an ambush and let alone the decapitation. You know, obviously nobody told
me that before. It's clearly distressing to read it.
2nd of November, we have two people in Vienna on an almost constant basis. They brought special gas. So, their suggestion is to wait Grozev to fall
asleep. Then they release the gas inside the apartment.
JONES: Jesus.
GROZEV: Marsalek writes, now, that will be -- glorious. And then, burglarized everything while he's dead sleeping.
JONES: That's your home in Vienna?
GROZEV: That's my home in Vienna, with my family and my kids there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, you're the Grozev in question. What -- I mean, you clearly anguished there. Describe a little bit how you felt when you first saw that
-- those messages.
GROZEV: Well, whenever the discussion is about what they plan to do to me it's kind of an out of body experience. You read it as somebody's fantasy.
But the moment something comes up in the chats that relates to risk to my family, then it becomes really, really personal. Then I really begin, I
mean, worrying about the future as well, not just about the past, because these people are detained and arrested and jailed, and now they will get
convicted next week, by the way.
AMANPOUR: Sentenced.
GROZEV: Sentenced. Exactly.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes.
GROZEV: They were convicted.
AMANPOUR: They were convicted, yes.
GROZEV: But a new group will emerge. So, really, every time gas in my apartment or breaking into my apartment, when I lived in Vienna with my
family, that is really where it comes close to home, literally.
AMANPOUR: And obviously, James, you take part in that scene as well. I mean, you're very present. How does this film and this story compare with
some of the other excruciating stories you've done? What about this stands out?
JONES: Yes. I mean, I have never worked on a film like this and probably never will again, you know, to be with Christo in New York when he got that
call saying, you can't return to Europe because there's a kill squad waiting for you. As Christo said, it felt surreal, you know, filming it
felt like we were living in a movie. It was like a spy movie.
And then to, you know, spend time with Christo over the next weeks and months as this incredibly outlandish plot kind of took more and more shape
in reality, then the idea that Jan Marsalek, this kind of bond villain, fugitive businessman, fraudster from Germany was plotting it all from
Moscow at the behest of Vladimir Putin. I mean, it's just too rich and insane, but I was witnessing Christo lived through it and have his whole
life uprooted.
So, you know, I've done films. I think last time I spoke to you was about a North Korea film I've done in Saudi Arabia.
AMANPOUR: And you've done Gaza. You've done all sorts of things.
JONES: Gaza and --
AMANPOUR: Yes.
JONES: -- you know, Duterte drugs. Well, all sorts of stories. I think with this, what was extraordinary was to witness the kind of human story,
you know, the other side of Putin's kind of repressive regime, which is, you know, the bravery of Christo, the bravery of Vladimir Kara-Murza and
his wife, Evgenia, who just through sheer principle and determination carry on despite the obvious reasons to stop.
AMANPOUR: So, I mean, I understand the danger to Christo because he's heavily implicated and Putin apparently hates you as we've discovered. But
for you, as the filmmaker, I mean the associated danger and I guess fear of working with Christo and being with Christo while he was, you know, under
this threat, what was that like for you and the team?
JONES: I mean, we, from the very beginning knew we had to be ultra- cautious. You know, we were dealing with people for whom the stakes couldn't be higher. You know, the -- even the whistleblower and protecting
his identity, all of these things meant that we took serious risks -- sorry, serious precautions to, you know, encrypted apps, code words, not
telling friends and family what we were doing.
And then, you know, we kind of thought we were being a bit silly. We thought, this over the top, no one really cares what we're doing. And then
they arrested six spies in London where we live and work.
[13:30:00]
And you know, these spies were frightening but also dumb. And they posted Google reviews of every hotel they stayed in when they were tracking
Christo across the world. So, Vienna, Valencia, complaining about the lack of fresh towels, all sorts.
AMANPOUR: What nationality were they again?
JONES: Bulgarian.
AMANPOUR: Bulgarian. And you were Bulgarian by birth?
JONES: But living in the U.K.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
JONES: So, they were able to travel freely. You know, and they were sat next to Christo on planes, filming him. They knew he was coming to London
to meet me for the first time before I did, because they had a mole within the flight booking system.
And one detail that I noticed when we discovered the Google reviews was that two days before one of them was arrested, she'd posted a review of a
beauty salon two minutes from my house. And that was a moment -- you know, a fraction of what Christo has gone through. But just a moment of this
quite real and quite close to home. And I'm sure it was a coincidence. But you know, for all of us, all of our kind of worst fears about what the
Russian regime could be capable of just kind of came true.
AMANPOUR: And you know, obviously, follow up to that and you mentioned when it gets -- when it comes to your family, then you start to get really,
you know, hypersensitive and worried as you should be. We don't meet your father, but you refer to him a lot. Tell me the story of what happened to
your father.
GROZEV: He just died one day while I was away, unable to be there for him. And what really bothered me was that he died two weeks after I found out
that there was this plot against me. I stayed in New York and I couldn't go back to Austria where he lived.
AMANPOUR: Because you were told not to come back?
GROZEV: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: For safety reasons?
GROZEV: For safety reasons. And I made that public. I wanted to protect my family. So, I made it public that I'm not going back because of a threat.
And I thought I was protecting my family. And then, my dad suddenly stopped taking phone calls. He lived alone near Vienna.
What really shocked me was later in the -- after the arrest of these six spies when the police showed me a photograph of them doing a selfie in
front of my father's apartment with an arrow pointing to his terrace saying, this way in, and this when I froze because I had to reopened whole
-- this whole chapter of thinking, could there be a possibility that they organized for him to die?
AMANPOUR: And is there any conclusive evidence or did the -- was the autopsy conclusive? What -- where do you land on this?
GROZEV: I was not given the full results of the chemical autopsy that was done, the chemical test. Because --
AMANPOUR: Why not?
GROZEV: Apparently, it's a -- it's regular procedure because the prosecution don't want the general public to know all of the substances
they test for. But I do know that only very few labs, laboratories in Europe have the capacity to discover poisons such as Novichok or other high
grade industrial grade poisons. And I know that Austria, where the autopsy was conducted, does not have that capability. So, I'm afraid I'll never
know.
AMANPOUR: Which must be -- I mean, just -- I mean, I think you've said grief has to be parked for the moment.
GROZEV: Correct. And it is -- and again, I --
AMANPOUR: And guilt to an extent.
GROZEV: Guilt is there, because whatever the reason was, even if he died, just because he got sick and nobody was there to help him. I was not there
to help him, that's still my guilt, my fault, because I engaged in an activity that made me a target and I had to stay away from home.
AMANPOUR: It's really, really hard to deal with that. James, it's cast as sort of a suspicious light in the film. Have you had any response from the
Russian government? Have you tried to get any response even from the ambassador here?
JONES: No. I mean, I think, what's interesting is that the Met did prosecute these spies. They were actually arrested two or three days after
Christo's father passed away. And his death wasn't part of the investigation. But it'll be interesting, I think, once the sentencing
happens, whether that investigation is picked up.
AMANPOUR: What do you want to see as the sentence? What are the options? Are they being convicted of attempted --
GROZEV: I think espionage. Espionage.
AMANPOUR: Espionage. Right.
GROZEV: Which is a higher grade of a crime than even attempted murder.
AMANPOUR: OK.
GROZEV: According to the -- to British law, to U.K. law. The top sentencing limit at this point, because they -- we be tried under previous
version of the law is 16 to 17 years. And I do think that the ringleaders will get something very close to that, because of the messages that you
just heard.
AMANPOUR: Yes. I mean, there's just incontrovertible evidence.
GROZEV: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: Is it possible that a group of these spies that followed you -- well, apparently, they've been making headlines here in the U.K. for
apparently attending a Brexit event in Parliament back in 2016, that's according to the BBC, which had this investigation on Monday. No suggestion
of wrongdoing but this weird, isn't it, this access to this kind of people? Do you know anything about that?
[13:35:00]
GROZEV: Yes. I saw the reporting colleagues from the VC (ph), called me about that, being shocked about that discovery. We know that the
ringleader, a person by the name of Orlin Rusef, had been made himself available to Russian intelligence for years before the actual operation of
the sting against me. So, who knows what they have done before.
But I think this just an example of a new trend that we see over the last six to seven years, which is outsourcing of intelligence operations by the
Russian government and to a degree by the Chinese government to private individuals who are filling in the gaps where Russian intelligence can no
longer be present physically because so many diplomats or spies on the diplomatic cover have been kicked out by western countries.
And so, many spies can no longer travel because of journalist disclosures. Like, like we at Bellingcat, and then the Insider conducted, that they can
no longer physically travel, but they have to resort to such private crimes, crime groups, spies for hire like these six, and there are many
more like that.
AMANPOUR: Wow. I mean, it's an amazing big dent that you've put in this. You mentioned the Kara-Murzas. You interviewed Evgenia, right, while she
was advocating. Tell me about what you put -- how she impressed you.
JONES: She's an extraordinary woman and, you know, didn't volunteer to be front and center of the world's attention, but as she said, you know, it's
harder to kill someone when the entire world is watching. So, she dedicated her life, you know, at great personal cost. They have three kids back home
in the States who are all at school. So -- and their dad is in prison already. So, for her to tour the world, giving these speeches, drumming up
support, keeping his name in the headlines, and then, you know, we filmed the moment Christo approached Evgenia, floating the idea of this prisoner
swap. And, you know, then she started to advocate for that.
And so, she was extraordinary. You know, she's so modest. She's so dignified. And -- but she's charismatic. You know, she could be a kind of
political figure herself, in a way that in other countries like Belarus, often the wives of prison politicians come to the forefront, and Evgenia
could absolutely do that. I don't think she will because she doesn't want it enough. But she's extraordinary. And her husband, Vladimir, is one of
those very rare, principled, decent people who, very few people have a bad word to say about.
AMANPOUR: It's an extraordinary and ongoing story. Obviously, Putin's been there 25 years and could last a lot longer. Christo, James, thank you so
much for being here. Very powerful film. Very powerful story. And the life you're having to live is very difficult.
GROZEV: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Are you free to go back home yet?
GROZEV: Not really. Every time I go home, I have to be accompanied by a whole sort of platoon of police protection, which is not really going back
home.
AMANPOUR: Well, good luck.
GROZEV: Thank you.
JONES: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And you can watch "Antidote," the Frontline documentary on pbs.org/frontline on YouTube and in the PBS app.
Coming up after the break, the rise of Trump's crypto firm. New York Times technology reporter David Yaffe-Bellany breaks it all down with Hari
Sreenivasan.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Now, usually once an American president is sworn in, they park their personal business interests to serve their country, but apparently,
not President Trump.
[13:40:00]
Instead of divesting into blind trusts and the like, he has doubled down. His son's launching a crypto firm called World Liberty Financial and he's
been selling a personal meme coin. Senate Democrats accused Trump and his family of profiting from the presidency, and now they want changes to
cryptocurrency legislation.
The New York Times tech reporter, David Yaffe-Bellany tells Hari Sreenivasan about his latest investigation into the Trump family's newest
business venture.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. David Yaffe-Bellany. Thanks so much for joining us.
You cover cryptocurrency for The New York Times and most Americans, let's just kind of set the table a little bit here, if we can, are maybe a little
familiar with crypto. Maybe they saw a Super Bowl ad. But before we have kind of a more in-depth conversation about the possible conflicts of
interest and how important this in the next few years, just explain what cryptocurrency is for people.
DAVID YAFFE-BELLANY, TECHNOLOGY REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: At the most basic level, cryptocurrency is a form of digital money that can be
transferred from person to person without any sort of intermediary in between like a bank. So, obviously, people have been able to transfer money
electronically for a very long time. We do it every day with our credit cards and our bank accounts. But the idea of crypto is you can eliminate
the middleman and it's just person to person.
SREENIVASAN: OK. So, there are kind of multiple storylines that you've been reporting on in the past few months. Well, one, just to try to clarify
for our audience, there's the idea of a meme coin. You might want to explain what that is. And there's the idea of a sort of Stablecoin and then
there's the World Liberty Financial kind of pick -- break these apart for me.
YAFFE-BELLANY: Sure. So, it's complicated and there are a lot of moving pieces here, but I'll try to break it down as best I can. So, the first and
arguably most important Trump crypto venture is a company called World Liberty Financial, and this run by Trump's sons, by some other kind of
family friends in his circle, and like a couple of crypto entrepreneurs in the family recruited to work on it.
And World Liberty Financial sort of marketed itself as a kind of newfangled bank for cryptocurrencies. A place where people can go to borrow and lend
money using crypto. That's the sort of overarching idea of the company. But what the company has actually done so far is really just issue two new
digital currencies that can be sold to the public.
One is a type -- is a cryptocurrency called WLFI, and it's a cryptocurrency that's kind of just associated with this platform, and they've spent months
selling it to the public. They've raised $550 million selling that coin to the public. So, that's the first Trump cryptocurrency, WLFI.
The second Trump cryptocurrency, which is also issued by World Liberty Financial, is called a Stablecoin, and that's a type of crypto that, unlike
Bitcoin, which is constantly going up and down, maintains a constant value of $1. And it's useful because if you work in the crypto world and you want
to kind of conduct a normal business transaction, you know, it's helpful to have a form of currency that isn't constantly fluctuating.
So, World Liberty has also issued this Trump Stablecoin, which is called USD1. So, you've got WLFI, USD1. And then the third kind of Trump
cryptocurrency and probably the one that's gotten the most attention is this so-called meme coin, which is totally separate from World Liberty.
Different people working on that project, and that's basically a kind of cryptocurrency based on a joke or an online mascot. It doesn't have any
value or any function beyond speculation.
Trump started marketing it to the public a couple days before his inauguration, shot up in price, which made its family and its business
partners huge amounts of money in transaction fees, and then immediately crashed, which is what tends to happen with meme coins.
So, you've got the Trump meme coin, the WLFI cryptocurrency and the USD1 Stablecoin. Those are the three Trump cryptocurrencies.
SREENIVASAN: So, how do these different currencies connect to the president himself? Because there is usually at least one sort of arm's
length distance past presidents have taken great steps to try to say, you know, I'm putting everything into a blind trust. I can't really make any
investments. None of this, what's happening in the stock market, or any market affects me or my decisions. Are these crypto coins and currencies
any different? Do they have an impact on the president?
YAFFE-BELLANY: They do. They directly financially benefit the president and his family. And you know, you can see that in the way the kind of
underlying corporations, you know, backing these different cryptocurrencies are structured.
And, you know, one point that I think is really important to understand is that this is -- you know, buying these currencies and enriching the
president and his family is like fundamentally different from making a campaign donation.
[13:45:00]
Because when you make a campaign donation, you're supporting a political effort and that money is restricted. It has to be spent on the political
effort. The money that Trump and his family are generating through these crypto ventures is money that they simply have to do whatever they want
with. And that sort of aggressive kind of personal fundraising, you know, business activity while president is -- has no precedent in modern U.S.
history.
SREENIVASAN: Now, we should note that the spokesman for World Liberty has said, it would be false, absurd, and dangerous to suggest that investments
or partnerships with World Liberty Financial were conducted as some sort of political quid pro quo. Never has an investor or partner requested any
political favoritism. Nor would we ever entertain such a possibility.
Do we know who invests in these coins?
YAFFE-BELLANY: So, this something that's complicated about crypto. All digital currency transactions are recorded on something called the
blockchain, which is basically a giant spreadsheet showing every time crypto is bought or sold.
So, you can look and see, you know, who's buying the WLFI coin, for instance. But those people are identified by long strings of letters and
numbers. And so, you don't actually have a name attached to any of those accounts.
So, my colleagues and I at The New York Times have worked with basically companies that specialize in a kind of crypto forensics who try to assign,
you know, names and identities to these, you know, anonymous wallet addresses.
And so, we've had some success in doing that. And we found that, you know, a lot of the people who have bought the WLFI coin particular are, you know,
people based in foreign countries who would be barred under U.S. law from donating to a political campaign or an inaugural fund for a president.
Others are people with crypto businesses who might have some interest in potentially curing favor with the U.S. government because they're trying to
expand their business in the U.S. or they're seeking some sort of regulatory approval. And so, the conflicts of interest really mount up the
more and more you look at the type of people who are buying these coins.
SREENIVASAN: When it comes to foreign policy, are there other implications? There was recently a situation where the UAE with their
sovereign fund was deciding to back one of these ventures with $2 billion. What does that mean?
YAFFE-BELLANY: At a conference in Dubai a few days ago one of the people who runs World Liberty Financial, Zach Witkoff, who's the son of Steve
Witkoff, the White House, Middle East envoy, got onto a stage with Eric Trump and announced that a venture capital fund, which is backed by the
government of Abu Dhabi, so backed by the -- you know, the government of this area, is going to use that USD1 Stablecoin to complete a $2 billion
transaction.
So, effectively, they are handing this Trump business $2 billion. In return, the Trump business is giving them these $2 billion in Stablecoins,
because remember, the Stablecoin maintains that one-to-one value and it's sort of a huge boost for this Trump business and it's being provided more
or less directly by a foreign government.
SREENIVASAN: So, what are the kind of policy implications there? Because the individual -- you mentioned Zach was also in Pakistan recently. I mean,
what are the -- what was that like?
YAFFE-BELLANY: Yes. I mean, Zach Witkoff's trip to Pakistan was pretty incredible. I mean, you can see the videos online, but it kind of had all
the trappings of a state visit. I mean, he's got an American flag pin on his lapel. You know, he and his business partners are, you know,
photographed, sitting across from the prime minister. They're meeting with other government officials. There's a police escort through the streets, a
dance performance, fireworks, you know, it's the sort of, kind of pageantry that is usually reserved for a visiting head of state. But here, has been
kind of bestowed upon, you know, these guys who are just in business with the head of state.
SREENIVASAN: So, is this the sort of proximity to power and basically somebody saying, well, I'm going to go ahead and support your venture
because you know the president or your dad works for the president?
YAFFE-BELLANY: None of that is, you know, made explicit. I mean, certainly none of these officials in Pakistan came out and said, we're only hanging
out with these guys because they're connected to the president. But sort of an obvious conclusion to draw. I mean, none of the people involved in the
day-to-day operations of World Liberty have any sort of strong track record in the crypto world.
And the company also hasn't really released any meaningful products so far. It's just released these two coins. And so, the value of the company and
the clear reason it has so much kind of networking power is its association with the U.S. president.
SREENIVASAN: And you've reported that the crypto executive with perhaps the most to gain from his affiliation with World Liberty is Justin Sun, a
Chinese billionaire who founded the crypto platform, Tron. Who's Justin Sun?
[13:50:00]
YAFFE-BELLANY: Justin Sun is a really important and very colorful figure in the crypto world. He's been around for a long time. He is enormously
wealthy and he's the kind of key figure behind Tron, which is this crucial crypto platform.
You know, people who aren't even that aware crypto might remember him from last year when he bought a $6.2 million piece of experimental artwork,
which was a banana duct tape to a wall. So, he sort of gained a lot of, you know, celebrity from that stunt.
But Sun has also been in the crosshairs of U.S. regulators for a long time. He was sued by the SEC in 2023 for fraudulently manipulating the price of
the Tron cryptocurrency. After Trump won the election, he spent $75 million on that World Liberty Financial crypto, WLFI, and became one of the top
investors in it. And not long after Trump was inaugurated, that SEC case against him was essentially put on ice.
And so, you know, critics of that whole transaction have pointed to the sort of obvious incentive that Sun would have to Curry favor with the
administration. Now, Sun says, you know, his purchase of those coins didn't have anything to do with the SEC case, but the sort of alignment of
interests, you know, creates a certainly bad optics for the administration.
SREENIVASAN: We should note that Mr. Sun denies the SEC charges and in a text message to The Times last year, he said his World Liberty investment
was simply a vote of confidence in the Trump family's excellent project.
I've also read people saying, look, this just sour grapes from the people who are out of power right now, because corruption pedaling and influence
pedaling and corruption have been part of politics ever since politics existed, right? I mean, there's historical precedent where members of the
family have been perhaps able to take advantage of their proximity to the president. Is there something different about what's happening now?
YAFFE-BELLANY: I think there's just a much clearer role for the president himself in these ventures. I mean, Trump, even now, you know, even in the
last few days, is actively promoting the meme coin on his social media channels, for instance. He, you know, is a -- is expected to have dinner
with the top 220 holders of this meme coin. Basically, he started a competition. If you buy more of the meme coin, you can get onto this list
to have dinner with him. And it is sort of -- it makes kind of explicit the clear kind of premise of all of this, which is that, you know, you buy the
coin and that you get access to the president. And so, that's what's really unusual about this.
SREENIVASAN: The president and the vice president, aren't they kind of the two sort of exceptions on people in the executive branch who can have
conflicts of interest. The president has gone out and said, the law is totally on my side. I can't have a conflict of interest.
YAFFE-BELLANY: Yes. I mean, there's the legal -- I mean, you know, the president is not subject to those conflicts of interest rules. And so, on
some level, what he's doing is kosher. But it's also out of step with what presidents have done historically, and it creates all these sorts of
ethical concerns.
And of course, if there were actually, you know, an incident of a true explicit quid pro quo that could be proven, then that would not be covered
by this exception.
SREENIVASAN: The White House has said that president's assets are in a trust managed by his children, and therefore, there are no conflicts of
interest. What do you make of that?
YAFFE-BELLANY: Yes. I mean it's a little bit misleading because that trust still ultimately benefits Trump himself. And so, you know, any kind of
financial gain will like ultimately flow to him and to his family as well. And so, you know, there's a clear kind of personal incentive for him to,
you know, boost the holdings of his family and its business operations.
SREENIVASAN: When you look out at the kind of crypto landscape overall, do people feel like this administration and these -- the rollback of these
regulations is really kind of the new dawning that they needed, the -- you know, that the field is now wide open for them, or is this just another
sort of cycle?
YAFFE-BELLANY: There's certainly a lot of optimism in the industry. I think the concern is that Trump is famously fickle. And what if he just
tweeted tomorrow, I don't like crypto anymore? I mean, who knows. Stranger things have happened in the career of Donald Trump. And then there are sort
of broader economic policies he's pursuing, you know, tariffs most obviously that kind of hurt crypto interests.
At the same time, the price of Bitcoin is doing pretty well. It's up close to a hundred thousand. You know, it's a very kind of healthy price for it
to be at. And what the industry is trying to do is capitalize on this moment, which is a unique moment in crypto's history, where the industry
has so much political support from the ruling party to get legislation passed that sort of cements those gains so that if Trump is out of office
in a few years and a Democrat who hates crypto takes over, there's a limit to what that person can accomplish because legislation has been passed that
sort of enshrines crypto's role in the financial system and creates a regulatory framework for it that the industry, you know, considers helpful.
[13:55:00]
SREENIVASAN: Technology reporter of The New York Times, David Yaffe- Bellany, thanks so much for joining us.
YAFFE-BELLANY: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
