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Amanpour
Interview With The Chosun Ilbo International Editor Ken Choi; Interview With "Our Dear Friends In Moscow" Co-Author Irina Borogan; Interview With "Our Dear Friends In Moscow" Co-Author Andrei Soldatov; Interview With "Walk Like a Girl: A Memoir" Author Prabal Gurung. Aired 1- 2p ET
Aired June 04, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE JAE-MYUNG, SOUTH KOREAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I will uphold the mission of fully overcoming the insurrection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: A pledge to unite a divided nation and a new era for South Korea. Journalist Ken Choi joins me to discuss the election of Lee Jae-
myung and what it might mean for the rest of the world too.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANAA SEIF, ALAA'S SISTER, ACTIVIST: She looks like a totally different woman now. She also looks like she's aged 10 years in the past seven
months, and she's really putting her body on the line for Alaa's freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- on hunger strike and at risk of death, a mother fighting for her son's freedom, A special report.
Then, "Our Dear Friends in Moscow." Investigative journalist Irina Bogan and Andrei Soldatov tell me how the hopes of their generation were crushed
by Vladimir Putin's regime.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRABAL GURUNG: I used to tell my mother, she reminds me like I was to say something like, you know, mom, I know my worth. The world just needs to
catch up to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- pioneering designer Prabal Gurung tells Hari Sreenivasan about his extraordinary journey to the top of the fashion world.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
A martial law decree, an impeachment, massive protests, and a constitutional crisis. It has been an extraordinary six months of turmoil
for South Korea. And now, it seems the country is turning a corner with opposition candidate Lee Jae-myung winning a decisive victory in the
presidential election.
The brief and disastrous move to declare martial law last December set off huge protests and ultimately ended former President Yoon Suk Yeol's career.
Now, he was impeached and removed from office and faces criminal charges for abusing his power.
The election of Lee, a candidate for the Liberal Party, comes as a huge relief to many in South Korea as the country now seeks some political
stability. But he still faces a divided nation and some crucial challenges. Chief among them, the economy relations with North Korea, healing divisions
and trade talks with the Trump administration.
Let's dig into all of this now with Ken Choi, international editor of one of South Korea's top newspapers, and he joins us now from Seoul. Ken,
thanks so much for taking the time. Lee was expected to win. We talked about just what a chaotic last six months it has been for the country. Now,
that he has won the election what is the takeaway among South Koreans and among journalists who have been covering this extraordinary moment in
history?
KEN CHOI, INTERNATIONAL EDITOR, THE CHOSUN ILBO: Well, actually, as you said earlier, you know, it's remarkable that Korea was able to, you know,
have a very smooth transition of power. But -- including this election. Actually, you know, for the past six months, Korea was the turmoil,
constitutional crisis. And yet, you know, without any bloodshed. He was able to, you know, peacefully transfer the power by the election.
Yesterday's election actually, you know, it was won by president -- I mean, the -- you know, Candidate Lee Jae-myung, but, you know, he had just a
little shy of 50 percent majority. The -- actually the two conservative candidates, if you combine their votes, they won slightly more than
President Lee Jae-myung.
This means that, you know, he -- the new president must court the other 50 percent who didn't vote for him. And at the moment, you know, he has almost
two-third majority in the parliament. So, he's considered to be one of the most powerful president ever elected in the modern history. And you know,
he needs to sort of shy away from, you know, yielding his executive powers and rather focus his policies on economy than his ideologically, you know,
oriented policies.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, because he had always been viewed -- in fact, many had described him as the Bernie Sanders of South Korea. He had long been viewed
as a leftist liberal over the course of the last few months and years. He's moved closer to the center.
[13:05:00]
And it's notable in his acceptance and victory speech, he said, it's time to restore our democracy, mend our broken economy and restore national
unity. Those are both quite ambitious and challenging goals to achieve now and deal with given what we've seen the country have to endure. What do you
think I is the first he needs to focus on and give us some of the obstacles that are in his way?
CHOI: Well, his number one priority must be on economy. And actually, as he's sworn in, his first act as a president was to set up this, you know,
emergency economic task force team. I think, you know, it was well received by the market, but as you stated, he comes from the progressive background.
So, the market is sort of watching him, whether he's really going to follow through what he said. If not, the market will punish him. And if that
happens, then you know, his presidency will be in a really -- under the water.
And right now, as you know, Korea is the 12th largest economy in the world. All his predecessors, whether they are military dictators or they were
freely elected president, they all had been able to, you know, put food on the table. And as a result, you know, most presidents had, you know,
positive ratings. And now, he has to go through the same thing.
And as you know, you know, President Trump's you know, recent tariff issues or reassuring issues with the Chinese economy and so on, you know, there
are tantamount tasks ahead of him. And he doesn't have much experience in these geopolitical issues. He's more domestic -- he's more focused on
domestic issues. Now, his presidency will depend on not only the domestic issues, but also all these geopolitical economic issues.
You know, actually he's surrounded by some able non-political oriented people. And if he is able to, you know, utilize these forces or his --
these people's expertise, I think he will be able to weather the storm. But I'm not sure -- you know, I think his camps just overly took over this, you
know, political situation. And I'm not sure whether they will go through with these, you know, non-politically oriented experts in dealing with all
these external issues.
GOLODRYGA: And we know that his predecessor, Yoon Suk Yeol, had closely aligned himself with the Biden administration. Obviously, this was before
this new tariff war that President Trump. Incoming president, obviously, but one that the U.S. has now seen for a second time has really been
determined and decisive about laying out tariff policies globally at least -- at the very least 10 percent across the board. They are mired now in the
courts, but he is determined to pursue them. Three quarters of South Korea's GDP depends on trade.
Talk about the importance of the U.S.-South Korea relationship in terms of President Lee's success ahead. And the fact that this is a very mercurial
president he's dealing with in the United States. How much rides on just the relationship factor alone between the two?
CHOI: Well, you know, I think he understands the importance of U.S.-Korea relationship. And, you know even though during his campaign he said, you
know, he will deal with Chinese accordingly, you know, he will have good relationship with all the neighbors around us. But, you know, again, the
most important ally at the moment is the United States. And you know, as you stated, three quarters of Korea's trade -- I mean, GDP comes from trade
and, you know, we have the most important ally, again, is United States.
And obviously, he will be able to court all these things. And I think he has every intention to resolve any issues within the United States with
President Trump's tariff issues, President Trump's, you know, reassuring policies, and President Trump's policies on bringing investments into the
United States.
So, I think, he -- if he surrounds himself with all these able, non- political oriented experts I think, you know, he will be able to get all these things done. And obviously -- and he proclaimed himself as a
practical politician, not, you know, sort of hunkered down on these ideological issues.
So, if he, you know, is able to go through with all these practical issues, you know, catering to the domestic issues, but, you know be able to follow
through all these market economic system, I think, you know, he has no -- you know, he -- I think he will succeed in dealing with United States,
dealing with Japan and so on.
[13:10:00]
Maybe, you know, his biggest challenge at the moment is to resolve all these trade issues, yes. But you know, it could be very minor issues
because Korea can offer a lot to the United States, not only on shipbuilding issues but, you know, Korea can go hand in hand with, you
know, developing nuclear power plants and, you know, there are a whole host of other issues the United States needs Korea on its side. And, you know,
if the new president is able to sort of get all these things done, then, you know, Korea can be on the rise again.
GOLODRYGA: Though we know that the tariffs, specifically as they relate to sectors like steel and automobiles will be very much felt in South Korea.
And we know the exports to the U.S. have been down more than 8 percent year over year in just May alone and economic projections now in terms of GDP
growth for this year have already declined now to 0.8 percent, eight-tenths of a percent from 1.5 percent.
So, there are obviously external factors, but also internal factors, as you talk about, the domestic problems that are crippling the country and the
lowest birth rate I believe in the world. And South Korea holds that title right now. What can he do on that front to restore the economic challenges
and societal challenges domestically?
CHOI: Well, first of all, I think, you know, Korea has the rigid -- the most rigid labor laws in the world. So, even though he favored labor unions
in the past and so on, but obviously, if all these, you know, rigid labor system, labor laws hampering economic revival, I think he will, hopefully -
- you know, he mends all these domestic labor laws that would sort of free hands to these business and corporate sectors. So, that's probably the
number one issue that he has to delve into.
And as you mentioned about the birth rate, I think with the right mind, right -- you know, there are a lot of policies. There's no left or there's
no right. And I think both size of the aisle understands this importance of reviving the birth rate. And I think, you know, maybe -- actually, it's on
the rise again for the first time in a very long time. So, domestically, you know, this issue will probably be solved and I don't think it will have
much economic impact, you know, in the next 10 years.
As I said earlier, the most important issue for the new president is to revive the economy. You know, the labor laws. You know, there are -- he
proclaimed that he will try to, you know, put -- make fast investment in A.I. sectors. I think it's a good move.
Obviously, Korea is, you know, powerful in semiconductors and automobiles and steels and so on. But A.I., again, is one of the most important new
agenda in the economic team -- for the upcoming economic team. And I think he can -- you know, with his domestic -- enough domestic policy and
manpower, I think he can overcome any obstacles in the domestic sides.
GOLODRYGA: And then, of course, there's his fascinating personal story as well. Lee grew up very poor. His parents cleaned public toilets for a
living. He didn't go to school after elementary school. He self-taught law to himself. He worked in a sweat shop. Lost a part of his -- almost lost
part of his hand as a result of an accident there. Tell us more about him and the activism role that he took up throughout his career.
CHOI: Well, he started his law career initially and then he -- right, he rose from, you know, almost very poor background. So, -- but he's not
really ideologically sort of, you know, brainwashed on any of that. He didn't have this -- I mean, he may had some activist activities, but not
during the college eras. So, that sort of differentiates from the previous political forces, the leftist political forces in Korea. So, that's why he
claims that he's more sort of a practical center oriented, result oriented person.
And as he got elected as a mayor of the small town south of Seoul, and then he got elected as the governor of Gyeonggi Province, most of his policies
weren't really, you know, that ideologically oriented. He wanted to produce results. And that showed that even though he comes from a very poor
background, he wanted to sort of cater to make the poor, you know, living standard better than what it was before.
[13:15:00]
So, in that light, I think, you know, he understands how the economic system works. He understands how the government can play in making things
better for the lives of the poor people. So, -- and he's been poor and he's a result of this system that sort of brought him from the poor, you know,
level or whatever, to become the president of the Korea.
So, I think a lot of people in Korea sort of look up to him to -- that he can -- they can do whatever they want in a Korean society as long as you
work hard and so on.
The only catch is that he has still has like, you know, 12 counts of criminal charges against him that was committed before he became president.
I'm not sure how that's going to be resolved, but that's the only lingering issues in his presidency. And I think I don't know how the Supreme Court
will rule on this or the higher courts will rule on these issues. But, you know, other than that, I think -- and as long as he follows through what he
said, I think he will have pretty bright future ahead of him.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. He has denied those corruption charges against him, and it's yet to be seen how that will ultimately play out. In addition to that
hand injury, which he sustained when he was a younger man, he also survived a stabbing attack as well. So, he is indeed a fighter here. It will also be
interesting to see how his policies differ from those of his predecessors as it relates to China and to North Korea.
His opponents say that he is too cozy to China. He says that we should not be putting all of our eggs in one basket and is open to improving ties with
neighboring China. Ken Choi, we will be following all of this. Hopefully, a bit of peace will come now for a country that has been mired in chaos over
the last six months. So, thank you so much for joining us.
CHOI: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
GOLODRYGA: And coming up life under dictatorship. I speak to authors of "Our Dear Friends in Moscow" about how Russia has changed under Vladimir
Putin. That's just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Running out of time. Doctors are warning that the mother of British Egyptian human rights activists, Alaa Abd El-Fattah, is now at risk
of dying. Laila Soueif is in critical condition and receiving urgent care after returning to a full hunger strike last month. She desperately wants
the British government to intervene and help free her son who was detained in Egypt. Nada Bashir has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Alaa Abd El-Fattah, a British Egyptian human rights activist and writer seen here in his family
home in Egypt back in 2011, being welcomed by friends and family shortly after his release from prison.
But his freedom would be short-lived. Alaa was arrested once again in 2013 and jailed for over five years. He was later rearrested in September, 2019
and sentenced to a further five years behind bars in 2021. He was charged with allegedly assaulting a police officer and spreading false news after
sharing a Facebook post highlighting human rights abuses in Egypt's jails.
CROWD: Free Alaa. Free Alaa
[13:20:00]
BASHIR (voice-over): Alaa's detention has sparked a years' long campaign led by his family who say he has been arbitrarily detained. His mother,
Laila Soueif, has been at the heart of the campaign. Holding regular vigils outside Downing Street, demanding that the British government do more to
pressure Egypt's president, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, to free Alaa from detention and even embarking on a hunger strike in September when Alaa's
family had expected him to be released after completing his sentence.
With some signs of progress, Laila was persuaded to shift to a partial hunger strike in March, surviving on just 200 calories a day. But her
return to a full hunger strike in May has left her in a critical condition with doctors at London St. Thomas' Hospital now providing urgent care.
SANAA SEIF, ALAA'S SISTER, ACTIVIST: My mom has lost like half of her body weight. She looks like a totally different woman now. She also looks like
she's aged 10 years in the past seven month. And she's really putting her body on the line for Alaa's freedom.
BASHIR (voice-over): Laila's Hunger strike and gradual decline has been documented in videos filmed by the Free Alaa Campaign.
LAILA SOUEIF, EGYPTIAN ACTIVIST ON HUNGER STRIKE: What hits me is when I actually see my body and my face. I look at my face in the mirror, it's so
different.
BASHIR (voice-over): While Laila's daughters have championed her campaign for Alaa's freedom, they fear she may not have much time left. It's a
concern echoed by some lawmakers in Westminster who are calling on Prime Minister Keir Starmer to take urgent action.
JOHN MCDONNELL, BRITISH PARLIAMENT MEMBER: We think the only thing that will shift Sisi is direct representations from the Prime Minister again.
But we've tried the carrot. Now, we need more of this stick.
BASHIR (voice-over): According to Downing Street, the prime minister raised Alaa's case directly with the Egyptian president in a recent call.
KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: In this case, I have met Laila and given her my commitment to do everything I possibly can.
BASHIR (voice-over): But as Laila's condition continues to deteriorate, campaigners are warning that a failure by the British government to
intervene could not only cost Alaa's freedom, but also his mother's life.
SEIF: She's really convinced that Alaa will be free and will be with Khalid and Brighton (ph), with his son. She's just not sure whether she'll attend
that or not.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Nada Bashir reporting there. Well, Russia is still reeling after Ukraine's daring operation Spiderweb drone attack against the country's
bomber aircraft and might be about to escalate. Today, President Trump said he spoke by phone with Russia's President Putin posting on social media
that it was a good conversation, but not a conversation that will lead to immediate peace. Putin, Trump said, vowed very strongly to respond to
Ukraine's strikes, which were a major logistical and psychological setback for Russia's leader.
But his grip on the country isn't loosening. Over the past quarter century, Putin has completely transformed the country. The Kremlin has gradually
turned inward, embracing nationalism, scorning the West, and crushing descent.
Now, a new book tells the story of how that move towards authoritarianism has torn apart a generation of Russians. "Our Dear Friends in Moscow" is by
investigative journalists Irina Borogan and Andrei Soldatov. And they're joining me now live from London.
Irina and Andrei, welcome to the program. Congratulations on the book. I want to get to the book in just a moment, but if we could pick up on this
news out just today about this phone call between President Trump and President Putin. It's the first time we've heard from President Putin also
addressing the Russian public following that incredible attack that had been in the works for some 18 months by the Ukrainian intelligence services
and taking out a number of their bomber planes.
President Putin rejected Ukraine's offer of a summit with President Zelenskyy and any immediate ceasefire. They went on to say, quote, "Who has
negotiations with terrorists?" Irina, if I could get you to respond to these statements from President Putin. Are they a surprise to you? And do
you think that the strikes over the weekend did anything to set back potential ceasefire negotiations or no?
IRINA BOROGAN, CO-AUTHOR, "OUR DEAR FRIENDS IN MOSCOW": It does not sound surprising to me because, you know that Putin, he is a quite smart
strategist. And he not always reacts immediately. What happened two days ago was just a huge blow into the Russian strategic policy on the war. And
it was absolutely unexpected.
[13:25:00]
But put in weight for some time and then he said something to Trump that we can see was very important that he is not going to negotiate with
resiliency and he maybe not going to ne negotiate at all. And given the backdrop of what's going in with Iran (ph), it sounds like very, very
important and significant.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, because what we're hearing from this phone call, Andrei, is that they also discuss the negotiations with Iran over their nuclear
program, which Russia said they would like to play a part in. We know that the two countries have grown closer over the course of this war as well.
Much of the drone technology that Russia has been buying has been coming now from Iran.
Do you get a sense that perhaps President Trump may, as he has in the past, take some of Putin's talking points and use them against President
Zelenskyy in terms of who is being more of an impediment to ending this war at this point?
ANDREI SOLDATOV, CO-AUTHOR, "OUR DEAR FRIENDS IN MOSCOW": Yes, absolutely. It seems to me that Vladimir Putin is trying to make a point that he was
all for the talks, but now, it's Ukraine who is (INAUDIBLE) counter, which is destroying the chances of a peace deal, which actually plays right into
the hand of Trump, who has been always accusing Zelenskyy of being too well reckless with this peace negotiation.
And also, Putin indicated that he can actually escalate not only on the battlefield, but in some other areas which are crucial to Trump. So, it is
already a big escalation.
GOLODRYGA: Let's talk about the book, because I think what we learn a lot about how we got here into a war that's now into its third year given your
own personal experiences as journalists in writing this book. And, Andrei, it begins in the first year of Putin's presidency where the two of you were
working at a newspaper, it was called Segodnya, which means today, it was one of the most popular newspapers at the time.
It ends with the two of you living in exile in the United Kingdom. And, Andrei, you being on the most wanted list in Russia. And all the while you
talk about the growing tension and then the breakup in relationships that you had with friends and fellow journalists who chose very differing paths.
You obviously choosing one to speak out against Putin's growing authoritarianism, your friends choosing another. Why did you go about
writing this story from such a personal perspective?
SOLDATOV: Because when the full-scale invasion started in 2022, it was a really big shock that many (INAUDIBLE) say, the best and brightest, and
Russian society decided to side with Putin in this war, and it was such a big shock, even after the succession of Crimea in 2014 and after everything
which happened since 2000 still it was a shock. And we wanted to understand what prompted these people to support this clearly brutal and horrible war
with Ukraine.
So, we decided to talk and to reach out to people we used to know very close. Now, most of them occupy very significant positions in power,
including the minister of culture, for instance, to try to understand their reasoning. And because -- maybe because of what we had with common past and
we used to be friends, most of them agreed to talk to us.
And so, this is our attempt to understand their reasoning and to understand why we making these choices, why they were making their choices, and why it
was so different from what we saw back then.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And your friends, we should note, weren't uneducated, they were highly educated. They were not susceptible to Russian propaganda. And
yet, such divergent paths. You write in the book, it is a personal story since they were our friends at a time when we could never have imagined
that our lives, our perceptions of truth, and our hopes for our country could diverge so profoundly.
The current minister of culture, Olga Lyubimova, Irina, if you can tell us a little bit about her and your relationship with her and some of the
conversations you've now subsequently had with her as you were investigating and writing this book.
[13:30:00]
BOROGAN: I met Olga Lyubimova who is now the Russian minister of culture when she was in her early 20s. So, she was literally like 21, 22 years old,
not older. And she was a very attractive young woman. A little bit Bahamian. She liked parties a lot. She smoked. She drank. And so, she was
just, he -- she was a student at school of Journalists of Moscow State University. And she was chairman.
He came from a -- she came from a family of famous Russian actor and her -- just all her family is very, very cultural and important for the Russian
culture. And she was liberal. She was very, very liberal. And I could not have imagined back then that she sided with Putin during the war. And she
became a person who's involved in reeducation of kids on the occupied territories.
And of course, it was impossible to imagine that Olga will be in charge of all promotion and she will be supervising the production of government
sponsored movies about the war, praising the war in Ukraine.
GOLODRYGA: Re-educating the kids is how Russians are describing it, liberating Ukrainian children. The rest of the world and obviously
Ukrainians, first and foremost, view this as a form of kidnapping and a war crime, bringing thousands of children against their will because their
parents are either detained or had been killed. They'd been separated from them during the war into Russia.
Andrei, you also talk about the difference in how you and your friends responded. There was a collective agreement following the attack in Moscow
at the Dubrovka theater with the botch as terrorists attacked the theater, and then the botch then response and rescue mission by the Russians leaving
some 100 people dead. They all responded in 2002. You all did in similar aghast (ph) and I guess just frustration and outrage. And then things
changed after the 2004 Beslan massacre at the school that killed nearly 200 young children.
What transpired in those two years that you would start to see a change following two such major devastating blows to the country?
SOLDATOV: Yes, I remember it was a quite a bit of a shock for me that one of the protagonist of our book and our former friend, Zhenya Baranov, who
was a very brave war correspondent, and I admired him and respected him because he was so brave.
All of a sudden, he started talking about Stalin in Beslan. And I think the reason why was that he had a very dark vision of what could be done in
Russia and he -- because he started history at his university, as most of our friends, all of them got this dark vision that in a country like
Russia, and specifically in Russia, if you want to get things done, they could be done only if you serve the dictator. So, that's the only option.
And he was very straightforward about it.
But now, it is a time that Putin told everyone and made it very clear to the Russian society that he going to stay for many, many years. So, the
only way to do something is to find a way how to survive under Putin. And these guys, we didn't want just to survive, they wanted to play a really
big role in what was going on in the country.
All of them were extremely ambitious. So, they just decided that to serve the dictator was the only option available. All other options were for
people like us to be on outside in that position, but that was for losers, not for real people who wanted to achieve something.
GOLODRYGA: It's notable that today is Alexei Navalny's birthday, what would've been his birthday. And you write about a rally in 2011 where
Navalny called for a regime change, and another one of your friends, Petia Akopa (ph), wrote a brutal Facebook posts. I'm going to read some of it.
To imprison him is impossible. Leaving him in the wild for a long time is also dangerous. This is part of his program. The third option remains
remove him and at the same time, blame it on the Americans. Not only for Putin, I think for all of the country, better the blood of one than the
blood of millions. This was in 2011. We know that sadly Navalny died in Russian prison last February.
[13:35:00]
Irina, as we remember Navalny, as you now are living in exile, I'm wondering what your message is for the world and mostly for the next
generation of Russians, because there is this perception, and I'd like for you to address it in the West, outside of Russia, that perhaps you and
Andrei are now the outliers in the minority or where the Russian public stands when it comes to nationalism, authoritarianism, the fact that you've
got a leader in office, for now, a quarter of a century conducting an illegal war. I know that's a lot to address, but just your thoughts.
BOROGAN: There are a lot of people who are against the war, against Kremlin right now in Moscow, in St. Petersburg and other places in Russia. But
remember, they're all fearless, they're all scared of the Kremlin because you can be punished a lot for just telling the truth to people or just
discussing the war in Ukraine or just putting -- posting anything about the war on your social media. It happens every day in Russia that somebody was
being sent to prison for telling the truth on Facebook or (INAUDIBLE) analog or Facebook.
So, don't judge Russians by the rules of the freedom countries like the U.S. or the U.S. it's much, much more difficult to be honest with yourself
and with the society being Russians because we spend decades telling the truth to people. And I mean, it's -- thank God we are alive and still doing
our job. But I think the west should put more efforts to send in -- to send in free information flow to Russians. They're still -- it is still
possible. And they're still listening too.
GOLODRYGA: Irina Borogan, Andrei Soldatov, your work continues as dangerous as it may be, sadly, living in exile now for three years, a very poignant
book. Thank you so much joining us.
BOROGAN: Thank you very much for having us here.
SOLDATOV: Thank you.
BOROGAN: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And coming up, he's the man behind some of America's most stylish women. Designer Prabal Gurung speaks about his illustrious career
in fashion from Nepal to New York. That's after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Now, to the world of fashion and a real-life example from the -- of the American dream. From Michelle Obama and Kamala Harris, to the
Princess of Wales, designer Prabal Gurung has designed some of the most famous women in the world, following a childhood, growing up queer in Nepal
and India. His talent saw him skyrocket to the top of the New York fashion scene.
But despite his success, Gurung faced discrimination, being told, you don't look American. He joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss his new memoir and how
far he's come.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, Thanks. Prabal Gurung, thanks so much for joining us. Your book, "Walk Like a Girl," the
title is a phrase that really was used as kind of a slur against you for so long. You know, you start this book with some easily, you know, describable
as painful parts of your childhood growing up in Nepal.
I mean, you knew you were different. You were trying on your mom's lipstick and in secret, your cousin's dresses.
PRABAL GURUNG. AUTHOR, "WALK LIKE A GIRL: A MEMOIR": Yes.
[13:40:00]
SREENIVASAN: And this was -- you know, your siblings and your mother were firmly in support of you. But you know, your larger family and community
was not. And I wonder they didn't really understand you. So, give us an example. What were the consequences?
GURUNG: I would want to say there was something subtle about, there was nothing subtle now. You know, they were really. Point blank made me feel,
say stuff like, oh, you're a pansy. You are this. You are a girl. You are - - and you cry like a girl. You walk like a girl. You talk like a girl.
And it was just so -- it was so confusing, as I said earlier. Like, you know, for me there was nothing wrong with that. So, it was really
confusing. And -- but then the -- then it got into -- when I went to school, it -- because I did not fit into this more the narrow description
of what a boy should look like. So, that really bothered.
And as we know in this world, the people in power oftentimes, you know, or the majority can't see anyone who's different than them. It really
threatens their own existence. And my existence that was unapologetic and, you know, just like unabashedly myself really bothered them because someone
like me who wasn't, let's say, who looked like them should be shrinking, right. And -- but I wasn't. I really felt like the love and the acceptance
that I got from my siblings and my mother back home empowered me to have a voice. But then it turned it into, you know, physical beatings, bullying.
And to be completely honest, like, you know, when I look back at it, the physical aspect of it, you can still handle it because, you know, you kind
of learn how to protect yourself. You know, I didn't know every nook and corner, I didn't know where the next punch was coming at me, I didn't know
that. But you kind of train yourself, and that's the trauma that -- you know, as I always feel like as a marginalized person, anyone can understand
that, you're always in that, you know, flight to fight mode.
But it's the impact and the volume of words, that negative words that come at you, the impact of it is it really sinks in and stays with you, you
know, your body registers it, you know?
SREENIVASAN: Yes.
GURUNG: The physical wound and everything, it can heal, but the -- and that is what I was like, really initially not understanding, but when it got to
me and stayed with me for a very long time. It took me a while to get to a place when I was like, you know what, I'm going to work on it. I'm -- the
world says that I don't fit in, I'm going to do my own thing.
And I used to tell my mother, she reminds me like I used to say something like, you know, mom, I know my worth. The world just needs to catch up to
it. I mean, I don't know how. I mean, I must have a precocious child, but, you know, that's how I look at it, you know.
SREENIVASAN: So, you go through school in Nepal and in India. You come to New York. You're kind of learning the ropes of fashion. You're interning.
You're going out at night. And you start realizing that there's still this sort of sense of otherness. There's a quote here. You're beautiful. I don't
even think of you as Asian. Even more ridiculous was when, whenever -- whoever hurled the insult would follow it up with, oh, lighten up. You
know, I love Asians, or I love sushi, or I love Indian food. I cannot tell you how many times someone has said to me, I'm normally not into Asians,
but you are attractive.
You were still an outsider even though, you know, the place -- relative to the place you came from, this was probably a very liberating environment,
but here you are, finding yourself, wait, what happened?
GURUNG: That's the thing, the complex story about America is that, you know, like, you know, I -- to me -- America to me was this like a dream
made in technicolor. Like, and this was New York City was where all my heroes were, like Debbie Harry, Basquiat, Andy Warhol, Mark Jacobs,
Madonna, and living in East Village. And you know, you look at all these colorful misfits and I was like, I -- when I looked at -- got a glimpse of
New York through, you know, few magazines or like glimpses that I saw, it felt like home to me. It was beckoning to me.
When I arrived here -- and also, let me just -- let's just not forget, America has this incredible PR pitch about everyone is welcomed here, you
know. And the truth of the matter is very complex. Everyone is welcomed as long as you follow the rules within the boundary, you know, the -- as the
lines. And as long as you are in close proximity to what they -- how they behave, or how they look.
The minute you are different, you are directly or indirectly aware of your difference. And to me it was really baffling in the beginning, because it
was like, all right, wait a second. Like is this OK for them to say this, you know? And then I realized, I thought it was an isolated thing for me,
but it's like it is every person of color, every marginalized person go through this in some way or the other.
Like there's so many times in my friends, you know, they tell me incidents when they're in their office, they open Indian food and people will be
like, what's that smell, versus like what's this fragrance?
[13:45:00]
It's those words, you know, like -- it's like -- and so, it's, -- always felt like that's why words have power, you know. And that -- with the word,
like from smell to a fragrance is going -- goes from a tolerance to celebration, you know. So, all of that stuff mattered.
And you know, you come here and you realize it, oh, wow. Like, the world that I thought I would be completely accepted, it is not accepting me. But
then what it does, I'm also incredibly grateful for this country because in this country is where you can question and write a book like this, when you
can question all these ideas and norms that are so preconceived and rooted in this, I would say, deep colonial beliefs, that's what I feel, you know.
SREENIVASAN: So, there is an excerpt in the book about your vision board, what you had kind of set out as the goals for yourself. And it says, start
a brand, check. Get in a few stores, check. Make a growth plan, check. Dress Oprah, check. Michelle Obama, check. Get in Vogue, done. Apply for a
CDFA Vogue Fashion Fund, win a Vogue Fashion Fund, check, check. Go to the Met Gala, several times check. Become the creative director of Chanel,
maybe that's still out there. Start a foundation.
I mean, you know, when I look at this, and I guess this is a question for maybe to abstract for people beyond just the fashion industry, you have
accomplished most of what's on this list, right? And I guess my question is not just what's your next vision board, but how do you find your why?
GURUNG: Simple. It was my mother. My mother has, you know, a roadmap for like, you know, strength and resilience and everything that I do. She has
been my North star. Anytime that something's happened, I'll call her and I'll be like, you know, hey, mom, this is happening. You know, like, this
is so and so celebrity is like wearing my stuff.
And you know, she's always been someone who celebrates with me, but also says -- like, I still remember the thing that changed for me was when she
said to me after I dressed Michelle Obama, you know, was she said to me, I'm glad that happened, because it was her idea. She was the one who
planted the seed of dressing someone like Michelle Obama because she felt that she -- you know, former First Lady Michelle Obama was the one that I
was describing in the women that I wanted to dress.
And then when it happened, she said to me, the success no longer is yours. It just doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the country, the continent,
every marginalized person. Now, what are you going to do with it? Are you going to be keeping it for yourself or is it going to be impacting everyone
else? And that's when our foundation, six-year foundation in Nepal, we started that with my siblings and my friends.
And my why came not because, oh, I want to be X, Y, Z million-dollar companies, or like, I want to be on -- those are all important goals, but
my thing was, am I making someone feel seen with through my work? Am I making even one person? Because I know what it feels like to turn the pages
of magazines, turn on television, or look at the cover of a book and or -- and see empty mirrors reflecting back. Nothing that looks like you,
nothing, you know, that resonates with you.
So, my why is less ego driven, but rather like, how do I serve the community, the people around me and even far -- you know, far away, because
I think, at the end of the day, that's our job as humans. It's -- we are not living for, just for ourselves. Our -- we are vessel for like, you
know, servitude and service, that's what I believe in.
SREENIVASAN: You've been an outspoken advocate for inclusivity and diversity in fashion and design. And you've been active in political
campaigns and you've gotten pushback from, you know, members of the fashion world saying, oh, look, this is probably just looking for another publicity
cycle. You know, stay in your lane, work on your clothes. Don't do this.
And I wonder, as you see the recent administration's rollbacks on so many of the things that you hold dear, how do you stay engaged? How do you
continue your work? What do you see as your place or your responsibility?
GURUNG: I think for anyone who like looks like me or who don't look like the majority, our biggest job is to make sure we don't give into cynicism.
You know, we acknowledge all the trauma and everything that we go through. Have an open communication within the community and outside of it, but show
up unapologetic as ourselves.
Because the biggest resistance to the patriarchy or to the majority, to everything out there that is like in resisting our existence is showing up
unapologetically, unabashedly ourselves. That is a first step towards that.
Sometimes I think back about that collection, the who gets to be American, and it's five years later we still are having that conversation, you know.
And I think about the promise and the hope of the -- let's say the Obama era, like the Obama years, like, you know, brought about America and like,
you know, and how it gives us hope. And the thing about what oftentimes like America forgets is what happens in America has a ripple effect down
the globe. You know, like across the world.
[13:50:00]
And so, through my runway shows where the people I dress, for instance, you know, when we go to -- when we do the Met Gala, people I dress, people I
take as my guest, it's very diverse, it's colorful, it's like exactly like my dinner table. And that's what I want to show on a runway simply because,
if it is possible within the confines of my house, it is possible in the outside world also, this colorful, diverse, incredibly amazing people.
And the more we see us, the world sees us, the less afraid we are of each other. That's how I look at it. And going back to what you asked about, you
know, mentioned about how people were saying, oh, it's for publicity or this, I always say, for me, it's my life. It's my -- it is who I am. It has
been my existence. And it's not just a moment, it's a movement. And it's more than a movement, it is the way who we all exist.
SREENIVASAN: You go out of your way to say, look, I'm not just in this for the cloth, I'm trying to tell stories with the types of clothing and the
fashion that I'm creating here. I want to tell especially the stories of Nepal's. How do you figure out what stories to tell?
GURUNG: It's instinct. You know, the beauty of being a creative person is an artist is your instinct. I feel like we are -- we get the opportunity to
hone in our instincts and we -- and I react to not just things that I look that are beautiful, whether it's a paintings or listen to that music, but
it's also political stuff right now.
I'll never forget when I did my 10-year anniversary collection, it was after a meeting with a potential investor who asked me what the brand
stands for, and I said, you know, I want to create a new Americana, because Americana, for the longest period of time, has been dictated by this -- you
know, these great designers like Donna Karan, Ralph Lauren, and Calvin, you know, but I -- the America that I see is insanely, immensely, and amazingly
colorful, and I want to bring that to the forefront and create that new version of Americana.
And I'll never forget when he turned to me and said, well, you don't look American. You know, how are you going to define America? And I said to him
like, I am an American citizen. You know, I pay my taxes. I make more than 90 percent of my clothes in America. I'm engaged in politically and in
civil, like everything through my foundation, through everything that I do, and it's still not enough. What you're saying is I'm not white. That's what
you're trying to say. And he kept quiet.
I'll never forget -- I mean, needless to say, I didn't get that investment, obviously, you know, but I remember getting the cab and I was like
thinking, will it ever be enough? That triggered me to do a collection called "Who Gets to Be American?" You know, and that collection, my 10-year
anniversary collection informed the next year's Met Gala. You know, and that's where Andrew Bolton, everyone is like, you know, said in his notes,
like, probably going to ask this on his runway show, and we are trying to answer this.
Not that I knew that was going to have a ripple effect. Yes. I was just reacting to something that felt. Not right for me, you know, and that's how
I look at it is like, you know, bringing my story from our part of the world is, I keep on saying, you know, for the longest period of time we've
been told East Meets West. And I said no, no, no. The narrative has to change. It's the West has to meet the East now.
SREENIVASAN: Yes.
GURUNG: Because that is what needs to be done. Because East has done the work, the West has to do the work now.
SREENIVASAN: The memoir is called "Walk Like a Girl." Author and fashion designer Prabal Gurung, thanks so much for your time.
GURUNG: Thank you so much. I really appreciate. This means a lot.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And finally, 36 years ago today, the world watched in horror as Chinese troops opened fire on student-led protesters in Tiananmen Square
Beijing. Around 1 million people took to the streets over several weeks calling for more social freedoms, but their dreams were brutally crushed as
the tanks rolled in. Human rights groups estimate that hundreds, if not thousands were killed.
In China, remembering the crackdown remains strictly taboo with heightened security around the historic square. In 2014, Christiane spoke with someone
who helped lead the demonstrations and now lives in exile. Activist Wu'er Kaixi reflects on that night and what he witnessed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WU'ER KAIXI, TIANANMEN STUDENT PROTEST LEADER: It's one very dramatic night after seven dramatic weeks. We occupy the street of Beijing Tiananmen
Square for seven weeks. We made very emotional demands. We went through hunger strikes.
And one of the Chinese poet wrote that they say, they, the students moved to God, but he -- they failed to move the emperor.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: What do you remember about that terribly dramatic night that frankly was broadcast all over the
world live on CNN until they shut us down?
KAIXI: It did seem a success. It's a genuine possibility until when we hear the gunshots. We did expect some kind of crackdown. We -- the logic of a
mass movement is that you apply pressure and hope for your opponent to make the right choice.
[13:55:00]
We never really expected real emanation. So, when the news came into the square to say the -- there were already bloodsheds, there were other people
dying from trying to stop the troops coming into the Square, of course that time the Square is in extreme emotional state. And -- but all the students
there were almost ready to sacrifice our lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Highlighting the importance of documenting history. And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, remember you can always catch us
online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
