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Amanpour
Interview with Americans for Immigrant Justice Executive Director Sui Ching; Interview with NPR Immigration Reporter Jasmine Garsd; Interview with "Syria's Detainee Files" Co-Director Sasha Joelle Achilli; Interview with "Syria's Detainee Files" Co-Director Sara Obeidat; Interview with The New York Times National Political Correspondent Shane Goldmacher. Aired 1- 2p ET
Aired June 09, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we're seeing in Los Angeles is chaos that is provoked by the administration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: National Guard troops are on the ground for Los Angeles immigration protests, as California leaders call the White House response
inflammatory. We bring you the latest developments and a deeper look at the context for the unrest.
Then, six months after the fall of Bashar al-Assad, documentary filmmakers Sasha Joelle Achilli and Sara Obeidat shed light on hidden atrocities in
"Syria's Detainee Files."
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANE GOLDMACHER, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: There's a wide range of places where Trump is improving. And what he's
doing is he's squeezing the Democratic Party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- Hari Sreenivasan speaks with New York Times political writer Shane Goldmacher, about how Donald Trump has remade America's political
landscape.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Law enforcement presence is scaling up in downtown Los Angeles after a series of protests against Donald Trump's immigration enforcement there. At
this time, crowds have mostly dispersed. The Los Angeles PD has declared the district an unlawful assembly area. At least 44 people were arrested
Sunday. Police used flashbang grenades and tear gas to disperse crowds. An Australian journalist was struck by a rubber bullet while covering the
protest.
About 300 National Guard troops are now on the ground deployed by Donald Trump over the objections of the California leaders. Here's what Governor
Gavin Newsom's office wrote to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth on Sunday. The decision to deploy the National Guard without appropriate training or
orders risks seriously escalating the situation.
And here's what Correspondent Julia Vargas Jones told us a little earlier from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We have these heightened police presence and the National Guard right behind me here, guarding the federal
building. That was the focus of a lot of these protests over the past few days. And just across from us, the 101 Freeway that had been blocked
temporarily by protestors yesterday, it's business as usual. There's traffic again in Los Angeles this morning.
But we did see so much anger from these protestors overnight. They said that it was over the sweeping immigration enforcement raid that had been
taking place. And that feeling of powerlessness that made so many people take to the streets to protest peacefully also made a lot of turn to
violence and depredation and to set cars on fire, to throw projectiles at police and add the buildings around here, federal buildings.
And the police chief here in Los Angeles spoke about this specifically, about these two different kinds of protestors. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM MCDONNELL, LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: When I look at the people who are out there doing the violence, that's not the people that we see during the
day who are legitimately out there exercising their First Amendment rights and to be able to express their feelings about the immigration enforcement
issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: Again, these protests ignited in response to raids that started on Friday. And then, on Saturday we were here when news of the National Guard
being deployed to California arrived. And we saw the reaction from protestors that it had definitely an effect on what happened over the past
few days. And in the continuation overnight.
Yesterday we saw the message from protestors was very clear, no more immigration raids like the ones that we've been seeing, as well as calling
for the National Guard to go away.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Well, these protests are taking place amidst a series of immigration measures by the Trump White House. Today, a new travel ban for
citizens of 12, mainly Middle Eastern and African countries, takes effect. And Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland man wrongly deported to El Salvador,
was returned to the U.S. to face federal criminal charges in Tennessee.
Here to consider the implications of all of this, Jasmine Garsd, is NPRs immigration correspondent. She's here in New York. And Sui Chung is an
immigration lawyer whose organization, Americans for Immigrant Justice, is filing lawsuits over the treatment of immigrants. And she joins us from Los
Angeles.
[13:05:00]
Sui, let me start with you. You aren't our reporter on the scene. You're an attorney. Yet, you are in the city where all of this action has taken
place, and I'm just wondering what your perspective was as you've watched all of this unfold the president really take an unprecedented step, sending
in the National Guard without the ask and cooperation of the governor, something we haven't seen since the 1960s. What do you make of all of this?
SUI CHING, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICANS FOR IMMIGRANT JUSTICE: Thank you so much for having me. I am with Americans for Immigrant Justice. We are
based in Miami, Florida. I happen to be in Los Angeles at the moment. And seeing all of this unfold has been disturbing and frightening going
forward.
So, I think we have to look at the context that we're in, from the start of the administration, the undoing of elements such as our sensitive
locations, memorandums, where protections were there for medical care, for hospital access, for religious communities, for schools.
So, seeing this escalate in situations where we see that a lot of individuals being targeted right now are not the dangerous individuals that
we were told would be targeted, those with violent criminal histories, those who are alleged terrorists or other such language that's being used
to target those that might be a danger to our community, we are looking at track reports has released that -- mid-May that it was 50,000 detained and
40 -- more than 40 percent, 43 percent of those have no criminal record, as well as the fact that some of those -- even addition to that, those being
taken into custody have minor traffic violations.
So, we're seeing just a mass increase in detention, families, colleagues, business owners, individuals that really are members of our community,
contributing to our community and pose no danger. So, we're seeing this now bubble up, that if immigration is going to go into restaurants, go to Home
Depot and target individuals that are not dangers to our community, the public is having a response to that.
GOLODRYGA: And, Jasmine, the protest broke out on Friday after we saw federal agents search the garment district there for undocumented
immigrants. There had been anger bubbling up. There had been reports of pressure on ICE agents and leaders from the president's top advisers, most
notably Mr. Miller as we know, that he has been asking for them to clamp down even more on arresting and going after -- Stephen Miller has been
doing that, we should note, for going after undocumented immigrants here.
Talk about the environment right now that we are in and the fact that this has transpired in California of all states. We know that this
administration has threatened as recently as last week to withhold federal funding for that state. There is personal animosity between President Trump
and Gavin Newsom. So, give us the context here.
JASMINE GARSD, NPR IMMIGRATION REPORTER: Yes, absolutely. I mean, there is an obsession with these numbers, right? Like you mentioned Stephen Miller
has said, you know, they want to increase the number of arrests to 3,000 a day, and they're really going after this number of a million people
deported in one year.
And as your other guests noticed -- noted, I mean, the goalposts keep moving, right? At first it was, you know, the undocumented with criminal
offenses, we're going to go after the worst of the worst. And now, suddenly what we're seeing is just that we're also going after kids on the way to
volleyball practice and we're interrupting restaurant hours.
And you know, I think the American public -- you know. Los Angeles, while certainly aware things have exploded most fiercely, Los Angeles is not the
only place where we've seen these spontaneous protests. We've seen this happen in other parts of the country, And I think what's happening is that,
you know, the American public is saying, wait a minute, you told me that you were going to go after the worst of the worst. But suddenly, some --
you know, my, my child's buddy is getting arrested on his way to volleyball practice.
GOLODRYGA: Right. And this has traditionally polled well for the president as well. I mean, this something he campaigned on, going after those most
dangerous illegal immigrants here in this country. And, Jasmine, I want to get to some of your reporting, specifically as it relates to Florida and
the cases that you have been following there, where, as you just noted, so many voters there, many that had even voted for Trump say, this isn't what
we thought you were going after.
[13:10:00]
But before we do, Sui, if we could talk about the legality of what has unfolded. You've been an immigration lawyer now for 20 years. Just in terms
of the steps that the administration has taken by sending in the National Guard, President Trump, just today, once again reaffirming that he thought
that was a great decision on his part, to deal with the, quote, "violent instigated" riots in California.
Gavin Newsom has threatened to sue the federal government over this action. Walk us over what grounds -- walk us through what grounds he may have for
this lawsuit, because as I thought was the case, this still is within the president's purview to do so even without the cooperation of the governor.
No?
CHING: So, really this type of calling in the National Guard needs to be coming from the governor. Typically, we're seeing this in situations such
as there's an earthquake, there's a hurricane, and the National Guard services are needed.
At this stage, what we've seen is that, you know, we're hearing from law enforcement in Los Angeles that they would like better communication. They
would need to know why the National Guard is here, what the basis is. We're seeing a lot of individuals peacefully protesting the majority and that
they are exercising their rights to do so.
So, the fact that the administration has gone over the fact that this really needed to be a call from the governor and that call was not done,
that's where we're seeing the conflict right now.
GOLODRYGA: And you're appealing to international bodies, as I understand it, Sui, because you feel there's not proper oversight right now in the
implication of these immigration laws. What authority do these international bodies have?
CHING: So, I want to bring us back to several weeks ago, several months ago, and we're seeing even more as we're seeing that these arrests are
increasing, detention facilities are overcrowding, conditions have deteriorated tremendously. We're talking individuals, not giving bedding,
not provided medication, sleeping on concrete floors, being triple -- quadruple the capacity.
So, we were seeing this in the Miami detention facilities at the Krome Detention Center. So, we did do a report with the U.N., United Nation Human
Rights Council. The window for us to make such a report was closing in April as the United States was under a human rights review since 2020. And
there will be a review and reporting on that in November of this year. So, we felt compelled that we must do that.
The fact that the administration has let go or reduced the bodies such as the Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberty, the Detention Ombudsman and
the USCIS Ombudsman. We felt the necessity that we needed to be able to report this beyond what our -- what we thought were the traditional
mechanisms of being able to report, but had been undone and reduced at this time.
GOLODRYGA: Any response from the administration in response to the filing?
CHING: Not at this time. Again, the U.N., the United Nations will be reviewing our filing for consideration, because we did meet the deadline.
We have had other engagement where we have filed official letters pertaining to the Krome Detention Center, to the Federal Detention Center
in Miami because of the conditions, individuals not having access to due process. They are very much in a legal process, being able to defend
themselves, but not having access to counsel, to family members to witness this, to documents. And it's suddenly being transferred.
So, it's very grave and the fact that there are individuals that have been taken into custody. They are entitled to a legal process, yet not having
access to the traditional mechanisms to be able to defend themselves.
GOLODRYGA: And you'll keep us posted as to the status of that case, please. Jasmine, if we can get to your reporting that we just alluded to
for NPR in Florida. Tell us about a local pastor who had been deported by the name of Maurilio Ambrocio. He'd been living in the United States for 20
years. Tell us his story and why you were captivated to report about it to the impact that it had on the community.
GARSD: Absolutely. So, Pastor Ambrocio has not been deported yet. He is in detention. He's lived in the U.S. for 20 years. He's had what is known as a
stay for the last 13 years. He goes in at least once a year and he checks in with immigration officials, lets them know he has a job. He doesn't have
a criminal record. And for the last 13 years, that has been fine. They have allowed him to stay. He is a pastor, landscaper and he has a family.
[13:15:00]
And he went in for a check-in in Florida. And he went in this year and he got taken in for detention, despite the fact that he does not have a
criminal record, which goes to Sui's point, you know, which is that a lot of people who are being detained right now don't have criminal records.
And he was kind of my in into the detention center. The pastor is at Glades Detention Center in Florida. And I started through him getting reports,
phone calls from other detainees, family members. I have had over a dozen phone calls from detainees and family members who have described the same
exact conditions, people sleeping on the floors for weeks on end, viral infections with not enough access or no access to medication.
And perhaps the most concerning thing I've heard over and over again is that people are going hungry, that there is rotten food being served, that
people are not getting meals. And again, this something that we have agreed as a society won't -- we won't do to criminals. But once again, not
everybody, in fact, there are many people in there right now who do not have a criminal record.
And so, the word starving was used at one point to describe conditions. And this not just in Florida. This not just in Miami, ICE detention centers,
immigration detention centers are at about 125 percent capacity right now. So, it's really simple math. You keep doing these like extensive sweeps,
immigration sweeps, indiscriminate sweeps, and they're just are not the facilities to hold people, and the deportations aren't keeping up either.
GOLODRYGA: Sui, are these types of reports in cases you're hearing as well from clients?
CHING: Very much so. I also want to just mention just very severe situations that we've -- are really unheard of, such as at Krome, at one
point, individuals were being shackled and held on buses longer than 17 hours, longer than 24 hours, overflowing toilets, because the facilities
themselves were so overcrowded that they had to use buses to hold people on property.
So, really severe situations occurring right now where it's unprecedented this level of human rights violations that we see in the detention
facilities because of the mass numbers. I want to just go back to the concept of the stay of removal. The fact that individuals ICE knew that
they were here, they've known for years, they've been valued members of our community, they have work authorization. This individualized review has
occurred previously in prior years. And right now, individuals coming in for those check-ins, they're low hanging fruit, very quickly able to be
arrested, placed in facilities, yet they pose no danger, and they're being separated by family members.
So, family separation is occurring every single day of the United States. Separations from U.S. citizen children, U.S. citizen elderly parents. So,
we're seeing family separation. It's not a matter of family separation at the border anymore, it's a daily occurrence.
GOLODRYGA: And you talk about the moral and ethical reaction and impact this has. But, Jasmine, obviously, these types of raids and sweeps and
detentions have an impact on the nation economically as well. And you look at the numbers, the National Restaurant Association, 21 percent of
restaurant workers in the United States were immigrants in 2024. 42 percent of U.S. crop workers are undocumented migrants. We see this in agriculture
as well in some of these border states.
What does the U.S. stand to lose economically if these numbers, these goals that have been set by the administration are actually met?
GARSD: I mean, it's a tremendous loss. You know, the -- our economy is powered largely by immigrant labor. And even if you want to go on a micro
level, you know, going back to the pastor that we were talking about. He has children who are all American citizen children. The eldest is a young
lady, Ashley Ambrocio, and she is 19 years old and she is now the head of her household. And they -- the family is desperate.
You know, at one point, Ashley's mother asked me, I don't know how I'm going to feed my children. This an American citizen family with a father
who for 13 years was deemed a decent, good enough person, a pastor, a good enough person to stay in the U.S. And now, something shifted.
[13:20:00]
And another interesting detail that I'd like to share about Pastor Ambrocio is I spoke to his neighbors, especially one couple who voted for President
Trump. And they expressed that they were extremely disappointed that this was not what they had promised, and that they felt very uncomfortable and
shocked that their neighbor, the pastor, was suddenly sitting in a detention facility where there have been reported food shortages.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, this was not what they had voted for, in a sense, is what you're saying and what the president may have been campaigning on that
appealed to them. Jasmine Garsd and Sui Chung, thank you for taking the time to talk to us today. We appreciate it.
CHING: Thank you.
GARSD: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And later in the program, "The Detainee Files," the new documentary exposing the hidden atrocities of Assad Syria. I'll be speaking
to the filmmakers next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Six months after Syria's former dictator Bashar al-Assad fled to Russia, there are signs that life there is returning to a fragile
normalcy. Relaxed sanctions by the U.S., U.K., and Europe mean more aid and investment funds coming in. And finally, Syrians are learning more about
the thousands upon thousands of people tortured and executed under the Assad regime.
Now, a new documentary from Frontline called "Syria's Detainee Files" sheds light on these hidden atrocities. Here's a clip from the trailer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The inside story of mass detention, torture, and killing told by those who carried it out
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It is true that I tortured. It is true. But today, I'm exposing the prisons to the outside world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And their victims.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I could not stand hearing my brother being tortured.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't know how we're going to move forward, how we're going to heal our wounds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Co-directors Sasha Joelle Achilli and Sara Obeidat to join me now to talk about the search for justice and accountability in Syria.
Welcome both of you, Sasha and Sara. I spoke with you during the brief break here. This was a really difficult documentary to watch, but equally
important in light of everything that has transpired so quickly in Syria we should note.
And both of you directed topics on a variety of issues from COVID to the war in Gaza. How did you approach this documentary and what made you want
to work together on telling this story that is continuing to unfold?
SASHA JOELLE ACHILLI, CO-DIRECTOR, "SYRIA'S DETAINEE FILES": So, actually, Sara and I, before we started this film, we had collaborated on a
documentary about Shamima Begum, who was a British woman who joined Islamic States back in 2015.
And after we made that film our executive producer at the BBC, Sarah Waldron, approached us because she had been interested in doing something
about Assad's prisons. And Sara and I were very eager to work together again, and in this time as co-directors. And we both had worked on Syria on
and off over the years and had come across families of people who had gone missing in prison. And so, we were both -- we kind of jumped at the
opportunity to tell the story.
[13:25:00]
SARA OBEIDAT, CO-DIRECTOR, "SYRIA'S DETAINEE FILES": One of the --
GOLODRYGA: Go ahead. Go ahead.
OBEIDAT: One of the things that we noticed when telling the story was this was a topic that had been told and a story that had been told a lot from
survivors of detention and the families of missing people, but we rarely had heard the story told from insiders and men who had actually carried out
the orders that led to the disappearance and imprisonment of tens of thousands of people. And we were kind of curious about that aspect. So, we
decided to go and kind of like take that angle when approaching this topic.
GOLODRYGA: And you interviewed the victims of this barbaric regime and the perpetrators too, which is just fascinating. And the documentary started
before the fall of the regime as well, and we talk about how quickly everything precipitated after that. The documentary focuses really on two
brothers, Shadi and Hadi, and their stay at the Sednaya Prison. How did you come to know these two brothers? Because they're telling through -- their
personal stories is so emotional and so powerful. If I could get Sasha to weigh in first.
ACHILLI: Yes. So, we traveled to Southern Turkey to do some development and research with an organization who documents the stories of prisoners
who'd been in Sednaya. And we met Shadi who was working for this organization. But when we met him, we didn't know that he himself had been
a prisoner.
And, you know, we spent a couple of days at the organization. And then, one evening we went for dinner with him and he started telling us that he
himself had been in prison. And he started telling us the story of actually how he escaped Syria when he was actually released from prison in just
before the pandemic.
And both Sara and I were just on the edge of our seats. It was like listening to a thriller. And he was just -- was this incredible
storyteller, but also had this horrific story to tell that was really hard to listen to, but because of the way he is, because of his nature, because
he was always able to see kind of the irony and the sarcasm in his life, and so it just made -- he just made for a natural storyteller and
contributor. And then, the fact that he was held almost 10 years with his younger brother and the love between the two brothers just felt like the
right approach was to kind of have him narrate the story, which is the story of thousands of Syrians. It's not just about Shadi, but he is one of
so many.
GOLODRYGA: And Shadi, and Hadi discussed being in prison together and the torture that they endured. Let's play a clip from the film on that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HADI HAROUN (through translator): Being arrested with someone who means a lot to you is very tiring. I could not stand hearing my brother being
tortured. If someone cried out while being beaten, the beating would get worse. Sometimes Shadi had to scream. So, Id' scream louder than him. this
way they'd take me instead. Because when Shadi is suffering, I suffer more for him. I always tried to be the one to take the beating, rather than him.
That is my relationship with Shadi. I don't want anyone to hurt or upset him, especially during the detention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Sara, that was so emotional to watch. And I have to say for an audience who for the most part has no idea what these families and what
these Syrians went through to be able to relate to just that relationship between siblings that so many people share around the world, that bond
where one says that I couldn't bear to hear my other be tortured and thus, he started shouting so that he could be tortured in his place. Just talk
about that moment.
OBEIDAT: That is one of the most impactful moments, I think, for both of us while we were making this film. And I remember our producer, Amel (ph),
was also in the room when that happened and when Hadi told that story and that interview lasted hours. But when we walked out, that was the thing
that really resonated with us. And I think it's because, you know, none of us have been through what they've been through and their experience
sometimes can seem unrelatable.
[13:30:00]
But when it comes to the bond of siblings and what you would do for your siblings, I think that becomes very universal. It doesn't just become a
specific story about Syrian detention, it becomes a story about family and what you do to protect your loved ones and not wanting them to suffer.
We all have siblings. I think everybody on the team has siblings that they're very close to. And so, that was something that we could all very
viscerally feel and felt like we really needed to include that in the film.
GOLODRYGA: It is so powerful. I'm so glad that you did include it in the film. And, Sasha, one thing that viewers have been able to see since the
fall of the Assad regime and al-Sharaa coming into power is how many thousands of families immediately flocked for prisons across the country,
looking for loved ones that had been taken and detained and locked away for so many years.
And while telling of this story perhaps solves at least one aspect, you get a sense of the magnitude of this as you portray in the film where Shadi is
surrounded by other family members looking for their loved ones, asking if he saw, if he knew, if he heard anything about their wellbeing. Here's a
clip of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Listen up, people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Excuse me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): We saw what happened in Syria. We still don't know where our loved ones were imprisoned. It's been three, four
days, and we don't know. Four days we've been waiting. May God take revenge for you, Bashar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Have you seen Mohamed Abdalat al-Salman?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): No, I have not. We're past into one cell. We don't get to roam around.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): My brother, here, was a soldier.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): I'm looking for two brothers, Omar and Saleh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Have you come across a man named Ali Edwan?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): No, I'm sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Did you meet a prisoner from Daraya?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Did you know an inmate with the last name Maser?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Did you come across Bassam al-Hourani?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: I can only imagine how deflating that was for Shadi not to have answers for those family members. But what is the outcome? What do they
have to look forward to, if anything, now under new leadership in search of clues for their loved ones and what happened to them?
ACHILLI: I mean, I think that the new government has set up two different committees to try and locate one -- locate where potential missing people
are, and also look after the interests of the families of the missing. And what became clear with the fall of the regime was that this issue of the
detainees and the detainees file is -- was and it still is one of the most pressing issues, and that people, many people feel like it's really hard to
move forward until they get these answers.
And I think that, you know, when Shadi -- when the regime fell, Shadi was in Syria within 24 hours. And, you know, he was -- he's desperate to be
able to give these families answers, but also himself answers as to where people are that -- the people that some of the people he met while he was
in prison and he went immediately to the prisons he was held, and it was all about trying to find the documents, it was all about the evidence, all
about the documents.
So, in terms of like what can people look forward to, that's a really difficult question because no one is still yet able to answer, like there
are organizations that are working on the issues -- that are working on the issue around mass graves, but that could take years and years. And new mass
graves are still being located and still being found. So, I think it's far from over and it's far from resolved.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And you geo-located some of those, what are believed to be mass graves as well. We see that in the film. And as unlawful as these
detentions and ultimate murders were, as you note in the film, so many were documented meticulously as well.
Over the course of the many years of the civil war, we saw Assad try to speak to the outside media, the western media. Basically, claiming that he
had no control over his armed forces, over the military, over the secret police, over the detentions. He was only president of the country. That
didn't sit well obviously with most in the west, and especially those Syrians who were affected.
And, Sara, the fact that you spoke with former officials, some of those who were running these prisons, some of those who were conducting this brutal
torture, how did you get them to sit down with you?
[13:35:00]
OBEIDAT: That was a really long process and part of the reason why the documentary took over two years to make. We essentially had to start
looking for people who had served in the regime. We started this in 2023 when the Assad regime was still in power. And so, going into Syria, going
into regime controlled Syria was not an option.
And so, we began searching for people who had defected or who had fled Syria and were living in -- you know, in countries across Europe and
Turkey, in the Middle East. And it was a long process, but we eventually were able to figure out where 40 different regime officials were. And we
had various different sit downs, some were phone calls, some were sit downs.
Eventually, you know, eight of them -- or nine of them decided that they will go on camera and speak to us. But it was kind of a network that we had
to build from scratch. They would, you know -- initially some of these men wanted to just talk about what they had done. Some people felt guilty. And
this was an opportunity for them to clear their conscience. Others would sit down with us because they were curious, how did you find me? What do
you know? They're intelligence officers. So, they would want to also assess us and suss us out. With some, we were able to gain trust and then they
connected us to people that they knew.
And you know, with others we tried to get what we could get and eventually built this sort of encyclopedia of what the Syrian intelligence and prison
network looked like in order for us to figure out exactly what kind of story we wanted to tell.
GOLODRYGA: One of the --
ACHILLI: we had an amazing team as well. Our producer -- our Syrian producer, Assad, who had worked on and off on this issue for a long time,
and he was able to also evaluate when people were lying, because he knew how the system worked. He knew what -- how people -- officers needed to
dress or how things were conducted at the time. So, he was able to also look for signs of any kind of deceit. So, that was really important.
GOLODRYGA: What stood out to me among -- and you were right, it is fascinating that some of these officials and those who were perpetrating
these abuses told you, Sara, that they were just doing what was told and they were under marching orders. They feared for their lives. Others said
they couldn't look in the mirror and hadn't told their families what they did. But one line that really stood out to me was one telling you an
interaction that he had with one of the prisoners as he was beating him and as he feared death, and he told him, he said, I'm going to tell God what
you did. And he said that so emotionless to you, but it really stood out to me ultimately your takeaway from these conversations with the perpetrators.
OBEIDAT: My takeaway is that, unfortunately, after almost 50 years of Ba'athist rule in Syria of over -- after 50 years of regime rule, there is
such -- there's become this sort of division within Syrian society that really needs to be addressed, which is perpetrators and victims. But so
many people are -- you know, so many people have been sort of forced to work under this regime, were forced to sort of be the foot soldiers that
carried out a lot of these orders. And then, some people did that by choice as well.
And I think my takeaway was sort of like, it's very -- it's going to be very difficult to determine, you know, the extent of how guilty someone is.
What -- how much agency did they have? Who should we hold responsible, which sort of shows how much work Syrians are going to have to do in order
to achieve true transitional justice that will be able to really bring justice to victims and to families, but also not sort of reignite potential
other conflicts.
GOLODRYGA: And that's after accounting for all of the victims because there are so many thousands still unaccounted for. Sara Obeidat and Sasha
Joelle Achilli, thank you so much for bringing us this really powerful film.
OBEIDAT: Thank you.
ACHILLI: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be right back after the short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, to an in-depth look into America's changing electoral map, which has seen swaths of working-class voters turn to the Republican Party
each time Donald Trump has been on the ballot, including in areas with sizable black and Hispanic populations. Or so argues Shane Goldmacher,
national political correspondent for The New York Times, whose latest report explores these changes in voting behavior. He joins Hari Sreenivasan
to discuss what he found and how we got here, and the hurdles Democrats face to regain some lost ground.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks. Shane Goldmacher, thanks so much for joining us. You're a national political
correspondent for The New York Times, and you've written several interesting stories, and I don't want to go through a couple of them. But
one that caught my eye recently is that your latest analysis, you looked at every U.S. county across the last four presidential elections. First of
all, why before kind of the what you found.
SHANE GOLDMACHER, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes, I think the goal here was to answer the question, not just what
happened in 2024 and why did Donald Trump win, but whether this was a one- off, whether Trump's victory was the result of, you know, a set of circumstances that happened just last year. Was it inflation? Was that Joe
Biden was too old? Was it the Democrats switched candidates? Is it something that Kamala Harris did wrong?
And I'm not discounting any of those factors. Those are obviously all factors in a race that was as close ultimately as last year's election was.
But I wanted to look back at the totality of the results since Trump has been on the ballot instead of baseline, which is why it's four elections.
So, 2012, the last time before he was on the ballot, and then each time he was.
And the findings were pretty stark. It was that Trump has improved in nearly 50 percent of the counties in America every single time he's been on
the ballot. And that's not like -- that includes a race in which he lost, right? So, even in 2020 when he lost, he was improving in nearly half the
counties in America on his previous election. And that kind of march in one direction, really tells the story of the political realignment happening in
the Trump era.
SREENIVASAN: OK. And juxtapose that to, are there any places or how many places is the left or Democrats improving?
GOLDMACHER: I mean, very, very few. So, all told Trump improved continuously, something we're calling these triple trending counties in
1,433 counties in the country. On the other hand, the Democratic Party improved three times in a row in only 57 counties. And when you put this on
a map, you see this giant sea of red arrows and these small little pockets of blue ones, right, in a few little areas.
And the fact that those numbers are really disparate is sort of scary enough for the Democratic Party is actually the particulars of the places
that I think is causing even deeper concern at this point.
SREENIVASAN: So, tell me a little bit about that. What's an example of a triple county that has continued to trend towards Trump and maybe on the
inverse, what was the county that has moved away from?
GOLDMACHER: I mean, the thing that makes the realignment happening for Trump so significant politically is the breadth of counties that are
realigning his direction. I think people sort of have this intuitive understanding that Trump has done well in white rural areas, and it is
true. Not only did he do well in 2016, he has strengthened those areas.
[13:45:00]
So, those most Republican bastions are becoming even redder. But the other side of this story, and I think One of the more interesting findings,
frankly, is his growing strength in the most diverse parts of America. That includes small towns in the south that are heavily black. It includes the
border counties all along Texas, where he had some of the greatest improvements in the entire country, and it includes inner cities. It
includes Philadelphia, New York City, Queens, the Bronx, Brooklyn, Honolulu, right? There's a wide range of places where Trump is improving.
And what he's doing is he's squeezing the Democratic Party. He's growing his numbers in the Republican strongholds, he's shrinking the democratic
numbers and the Democratic strongholds. And the only places that Democrats are improving continuously are the wealthiest and best educated corners of
the country.
SREENIVASAN: Yes. Let's talk about the demographics here. I mean, is there kind of a class or education theme that underlies these flips?
GOLDMACHER: For sure. I mean, I -- for a long time in America, one of the most important predictors of your sort of political alignment was race. It
was, if you're in a black neighborhood, it's heavily democratic. A Latino neighborhood, very, very democratic. And that's still true, but Trump made
that less true and really realigned along class divisions. Class in terms of both income and in terms of education.
One of the numbers that really was striking to me is how 1,433 triple trending Trump counties, right? Of those, only three of them were in places
where the median income in the county was a hundred thousand dollars. So, basically, an infinitesimal amount of the Trump trending counties are these
really, really wealthy jurisdictions.
On the flip side, again, only 57 for the Democrats have moved their direction continuously, 18 of the 57, so far more of the democratic
counties are those wealthiest places in the country, and that's where the party's been improving. And that's true nationally. And as you break it
down state by state, it's true after state after state that I looked at, oh, what is the one county that the Democrats did better in, in Iowa? It
turns out it's the wealthiest county and the best educated county. Similar stories all across the country.
SREENIVASAN: So, you know, some of this comes down to people thinking, OK, this was a phenomenon called Donald Trump. Would any other member of the
Republican Party be able to pull off this slide? And I think that perhaps people -- or Democrats are on the left have some optimism that, oh, we will
make up for this in the midterm, but you're looking at a much longer arc and a much bigger trend line than something that flips every two years.
GOLDMACHER: Yes. I mean, I think that there is some reason for Democrats to be hopeful along those lines. Donald Trump is such a singular figure.
His reputation is different than the Republican Party, even as the Republican Party has been sort of remade in his image, he sort of stands
alone. We've seen past elections when he's not been on the ballot. Other Republicans haven't built the same coalition that he has, right?
The 2018 midterms, it moved in the Democratic direction. The 2022 midterms, Democrats outperformed expectations. And they're feeling confident heading
into the next year's midterms. I think the question is, how damaged has the Democratic Party's brand been in this period of time? How are voters
perceiving Democrats and how are they perceiving Republicans? Because I don't think the Democratic Party's going to solve its problems simply by
the Republicans changing candidates, simply by Donald Trump going away.
SREENIVASAN: One of the veins of reporting that you have, which is fascinating to read, is what is Democrat response, so to speak. And what
you're finding in some of your stories is that they're really not of a singular mind in how to proceed forward, how to respond to this
strategically over a period of years, or even in the short-term. So, what have you found?
GOLDMACHER: Well, there's really -- there's two fights I think happening simultaneously among Democrats to figure out what is the path forward. One
of those is the sort of traditional one we know, it's the left versus the center. Do we moderate? Do we go more populous? Do we do -- what do we do?
Do we try to rev up the Democratic base or do we appeal to the middle? And that fights has been happening -- I think it is happening now, and it's
happened for many, many years.
I think that there's a different, and frankly, more interesting fight that's also happening right now, which is, what is the posture of the
Democratic Party? I think it's come to be perceived by many voters as backing institutions, the establishment, the status quo, and there's a big
push to say, it's time to have some of the attitude that Donald Trump had that, look, the political system in America, the economic system in America
is not working for people.
Most Americans don't feel confident that they and their children are going to be better than their parents were, right? This a shift, and the party is
trying to figure out a way to meet where voters are. That frustration with the political system, at the same time is trying to defend the system from
Donald Trump and the changes he's bringing about, and it's a real tension right now between, well, how do you become the anti-establishment party
when you have really come to embody the establishment, the elites, the college educated workers? And I think that this a big fight that isn't
necessarily happening on that typical sort of left center right axis.
[13:50:00]
SREENIVASAN: Are there particular strategies that they're trying to deploy or employ to reconnect with certain demographics? Like there's been an
interesting conversation about how young men trended, for example, towards Trump in this last election in a way that I don't think Democrats expected.
GOLDMACHER: Yes, I think for a long time, Democrats have seen the idea of a gender gap as benefiting the party in general, and almost every election
women outnumber men at the ballot box. Women tend to vote in higher numbers and women have tended to voted, and women have tended to vote for Democrats
more frequently than Republicans said. Well, this great. We've got a greater share of the greater number of voters.
And while Trump did continue to lose support among women in the 2024 election, he ramped up the margins among men in a way that is sort of
frightening for Democrats because they thought they were the only ones benefiting from this gender gap. So, yes, there, there are a lot of
strategies, right? There are groups out there trying to come up with ideas. There are focus groups almost every day across the country in small pockets
to the corner where Democrats are trying to like listen and say, how are you getting in your information? How do you perceive the Democratic Party?
And what can we do to fix it?
SREENIVASAN: And so, is there anybody that has got a voice in the Democratic Party now that resonates among maybe their peers, the donor
class, young people? because on the one hand you have, you know, AOC and Bernie filling arenas around the country on their speaking tours. And then,
on the other hand, I don't know what the specific sort of people that the moderates are pushing are, but what are the examples of candidates that
might be not just a counterweight to Donald Trump and the Republican Party, but also to this emerging force on the left.
GOLDMACHER: I mean, I think that it's important to look at what Bernie Sanders, who is not running for president again and AOC are doing, they are
filling arenas and they're filling arenas in red states or red corners of the country, and they're showing an energy not just for the left
ideologically, but for that fighting anti-establishment part of the party.
But there are certainly I think a number of governors that are already out there sort of testing the waters, you know, national figures. Andy Beshear
is the governor of Kentucky, Democrat, who's one in one of the red states in the country. He's been traveling the country. Gretchen Whitmer won in a
swing state. She also has been sort of furnishing her national profile. There's a number of people sort of beginning to position themselves.
I think what's so early in the presidential cycle to pick particular candidates. Right now, I think the fight is over who can de define the
party heading into the midterms? And can Democrats come up with something that is more than just being against Donald Trump? Because, look, the
advantage for Democrats is in the midterm elections, guess who turns out? It's the better educated voters. It's the wealthier voters on average. And
so, that gives the party a chance, a chance to do even better, pick up the House more likely than not.
But the concern from a lot of people I've talked to is, well, what if we do that and don't make fundamental changes? Don't make big changes to the
party, how people perceive Democrats? And then, you wake up in 2028, and all of a sudden, guess what? You didn't make those changes. And Republicans
have continued to make gains in those less frequent working-class voters that delivered them the White House this last time.
SREENIVASAN: You pointed out, for example, that we might have a false sense of security in the Democratic Party based on the midterms and who
comes out. But is there, you know, a larger kind of something that they're missing in terms of what's going to happen in a couple more years that they
should be preparing for now?
GOLDMACHER: I mean, I think that the smart fingers in the Democratic Party are deeply concerned about this trend line, not just for 2028, but to get a
little wonky with this for a second, but beyond, right, the congressional - - the census redraws the congressional lines every 10 years. And the population growth, it's been in red states. So, the path that was available
for Kamala Harris to win the White House in 2024, in all likelihood, that won't exist in 2032 if you can't make inroads in those growing diverse
states, places like Florida and Texas.
This where the Democratic Party needs to be competitive. And guess what those states have? A lot of working-class voters, a lot of Latino voters.
The voters that the party is losing ground with is the places they most need to gain ground.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: That was Shane Goldmacher, the national political correspondent for The New York Times.
And finally, for us, Broadway's biggest night. Sunday marked the 78th annual Tony Awards. Among the winners was "Eureka Day" for best revival.
The story explores a California school grappling with a mumps outbreak and the pre pandemic debate over whether to vaccinate students in response.
[13:55:00]
Earlier this year, Christiane, spoke with Stars Jessica Hecht and Bill Irwin. They discussed how the play resonates today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL IRWIN, ACTOR, "EUREKA DAY": It reveals itself to be a very shrewd bit of playwriting irrespective of what's going on. But it also, as we've been
talking about it, we've hit the curve of history so that since the play was written, the pandemic gripped the world, the social justice reckoning
moment when George Floyd was killed, and election results, things that, like I said earlier, were a little -- we were a little fearful, we might
fall behind the curve of history. It's actually a very current conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And congratulations to all the winners from last night. That is it for now. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
