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Amanpour
Interview with U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs Spokesperson Olga Cherevko; Interview with Ukrainian Soldier and Former Tennis Pro Sergiy Stakhovsky; Interview with "Lights Out: Nat 'King' Cole" Actor Dule Hill; Interview with "Lights Out: Nat 'King' Cole" Actor Daniel J. Watts; Interview with USAID Former Assistant Administrator for Global Health Dr. Atul Gawande. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired June 10, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up. Police and protestors face off in Los Angeles, as
Trump sends in more troops over the California governor's objections. We'll bring you the details.
And death, despair and hunger in Gaza. I'll speak to a top U.N. official on the ground there.
Then, as Russia pound Kyiv, a rare opportunity to speak to tennis star turned Ukrainian Soldier Sergiy Stakhovsky.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it's a good day for shining your shoes and it's a good day for losing the blue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- "Lights Out: Nat 'King' Cole" actors Dule Hill and Daniel J. Watts join me on their play spotlighting a low point of the famous singer's
career.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ATUL GAWANDE, FORMER ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR GLOBAL HEALTH, USAID: Everywhere you look, there is a devastating impact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- Dr. Atul Gawande breaks down the real-world consequences of the USAID funding cuts with Hari Sreenivasan.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
President Trump is doubling down on sending troops to Los Angeles, mobilizing another 2,000 National Guard members, while the Defense
Department activated 700 Marines to be reactive to the anti-ICE protests. Trump praised himself for the decision, calling it a great one, and
suggesting that the city would've been completely obliterated otherwise. California's governor, Gavin Newsom, however, says that the move was
entirely unnecessary and even counterproductive, claiming that local officials are more than capable of managing the unrest.
Demonstrators continue to gather on the streets at night in some pockets of downtown Los Angeles, where in the daylight we can see graffiti and some
vandalism. Protests are now being seen in other cities as well.
Our Josh Campbell is in Los Angeles for us. Josh, we heard from the president just now from the Oval Office, again, double down on his decision
to send in the National Guard and now Marines, saying that if we didn't get involved, Los Angeles would be on fire. What are you hearing from local law
enforcement there, because as we know, the governor and the mayor of Los Angeles say that local officials and the police could have handled the
unrest we started to see on Friday?
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we're hearing a lot of hyperbole from President Trump there talking with officials here on the ground. They
didn't think that this was necessary in order to send in officials. And not just politicians, but I'm talking about local law enforcement here. We have
heard from them. They thought that they would've had a good handle on all of this that we've seen kind of night after night for the last few days.
The point they make is that this all kicked off on Friday in response to federal immigration raid that local law enforcement here didn't know was
about to happen. And so, when those arrests started happening, and then you had people that came out to protest, some of them getting violent towards
those federal agents, it was up to local law enforcement that then have to respond. And so, they were playing catch up from the start.
But if you see what we've seen the last couple days where it's been more methodical, you have the police night after night come in and various
different groups and then they're able to quell, you know, a lot of the protests that we've seen, the violence has certainly gone down night after
night. We'll hope that that continues. But
the bottom line here from local law enforcement is they thought they would've had a handle on this. And then, as far as the president saying
that L.A. would've been completely obliterated, interestingly, after he first gave the order to deploy the National Guard here he went on social
media and said that, look, the National Guard saved the day. In reality, the National Guard hadn't even arrived yet, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Well, and that was before the Marines were sent in as well. And the president when asked if we could expect similar type raids that we saw
in Los Angeles that triggered these protests on Friday in other cities and other states, he said yes. So, I guess the question is whether law
enforcement in those areas, in those cities and states will be prepared.
Do you agree with the assessment of the governor and the mayor of Los Angeles that sending in these reinforcements only exacerbated the scenes,
or is there any evidence to suggest what the president and the DHS secretary are saying that things have calmed down because of their
presence?
CAMPBELL: Well, I know when talking to law enforcement sources, they've actually done assessments on the crowds, trying to determine who are these
people that are showing up in Downtown L.A. And it's somewhat of a hodgepodge. You do have protestors that are coming out against the
administration's immigration policies. You also have groups of protestors, according to law enforcement sources, who are there because the National
Guard is here. It's almost like in response to the deployment of troops. You have people very unhappy with that.
[13:05:00]
And then, the last group is, you know, professional agitators, they call it. People will just come out because they want to thrive on the conflict
with law enforcement. And so, that is a big question, you know, as far as is the presence of troops here actually continuing to fuel what's
happening? Again, the politicians here in L.A. who didn't want this to happen say that it continues to fan the flames. And I want you to take a
listen here to L.A. Mayor Karen Bass, who actually spoke out against this, saying that in her view, the administration is targeting the city here for
political purposes. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR KAREN BASS (D-LOS ANGELES): And it makes me feel like our city is actually a test case. A test case for what happens when the federal
government moves in and takes the authority away from the state or away from local government. I don't think that our city should be used for an
experiment to see what happens in the nation's second largest city. Well, maybe we can do this to other cities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAMPBELL: Now, we know that other departments have been watching what's happening here in L.A. across the country. We have seen some other protests
begin over the last couple days. And so, that is giving those agencies somewhat of a lead time to get, you know, their people together to figure
out how they would respond if there's some type of repeat. But as you mentioned, the Trump administration said that these immigration raids are
going to continue from coast to coast.
GOLODRYGA: It's safe to say it is extremely rare to see U.S. Marines patrolling the streets of large urban areas especially the size of Los
Angeles. But it was notable to hear DHS Secretary Kristi Noem say that these marines that are there are specifically trained to meet the needs of
what is happening on the ground. Is that what you were hearing?
CAMPBELL: No, it's not. U.S. Marines, their job, as you know everyone knows, you know, looking at wars in the past, they launch overseas as the
tip of the spear, right? The brute force of the U.S. military that can go and defend and use offensive operations whenever necessary. They're not
trained in patrolling U.S. streets.
And in fact, you know, when you look at where this particular group of Marines is coming from, we saw some of the listings online about this unit
within the Defense Department, they're trained in desert combat and, you know, obviously, artillery and things like that, not patrolling a downtown
metropolitan area.
It's still yet to be seen whether they will actually be out doing, you know, law enforcement role roles if the president actually invokes the
Insurrection Act.
GOLODRYGA: Yes.
CAMPBELL: Right now, the Department of Homeland Security is saying that they are there to protect federal buildings, federal property. But you can
just imagine just everyone on a hair trigger here. If you have people that are there, not trained, but they're carrying deadly weapons, how would they
respond if you have these agitators maybe in a different way that police are trained to do?
GOLODRYGA: We'll continue to closely monitor the situation there in Los Angeles and other cities now. Josh Campbell, thank you.
CAMPBELL: Yes.
GOLODRYGA: In Gaza, there is still too little aid getting in, according to humanitarian groups. While the distribution is still fraught with danger.
On Monday, Palestinians and Gaza told the media that they were fired on yet again on the way to an aid distribution site run by the controversial Gaza
Humanitarian Foundation.
Olga Cherevko works for the U.N.'s office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs and joins me now from inside Gaza. Olga, welcome to
the program. So, as of now, we have about 160 plus reported deaths, over a thousand injuries since the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation began to
distribute aid earlier this month. You are our witness to some of the testimony, I would imagine, from the civilians there. Tell us what you are
seeing, what you know about the situation on the ground and the concerns about civilians having access to get aid.
OLGA CHEREVKO, SPOKESPERSON, U.N. OFFICE FOR THE COORDINATION OF HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS: Thanks, Bianna. The situation just continues to
really spiral out of control and deteriorate by the minute. I think I was on your program just recently and honestly, since then, it's become much,
much worse.
As you mentioned, there are very gruesome reports of people being killed and injured at distribution -- at these non-U.N. distribution sites. That
even just yesterday, we actually received reports from the Red Cross Field Hospital that had received 27 -- 29 casualties. Eight of them were dead.
And all of them -- the overwhelming majority, 27 of them had the explosive trauma injury.
And this is just a very grim reality that people are facing here today, which is this dreadful choice of risking your life to feed your family or
starving to death, and it's really not a choice if you think about it.
[13:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation reported on their website that they've distributed the equivalent of one and a half million meals on June
9th, and they distributed the equivalent of more than 11 and a half million meals since the operation in Gaza began. Are you, in any ability do you
have, to confirm those numbers and just give us the scale of what they're saying at least if we were to take these numbers and view them as accurate,
does that meet the needs of what Gazans need?
CHEREVKO: Well, I think it clearly doesn't because if you -- you know, if we look around today, everywhere I look and everyone I see and speak to,
the first thing they ask for is food. And I think it's important to really underscore that it's not about only food and the fact that we are still
discussing how many -- how much will it take to prevent a further deterioration? And what we really should be talking about is how to
meaningfully lift the blockade and how to allow an unrestricted flow of not only aid, but also commercial supply and everything into Gaza to help
people restore some sense of normality.
Because right now, nothing is normal here. I mean, what you see here is this wasteland that has really become a shell of itself. And people -- you
know, there are people in various areas of Gaza that even if they're displacement orders, they refuse to move because they're just so tired of
everything and they would just rather be killed wherever they are because it doesn't matter if they move because even those places are bombed as
well.
GOLODRYGA: Well, as you know, Israel has circumvented U.N. aid organizations from providing the aid like UNRWA, and they say that is
because Hamas was funneling and looting and profiting and stealing some of that, a large portion of that aid, and thus, they turned to this
alternative source, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. How do you respond to those claims?
CHEREVKO: It's very simple. We have a system. And it's really -- it's the only system that has proven to work over time, over various crises in
different parts of the world. It's -- this is not unique to Gaza. We work all over the world and we use a similar type of principled aid delivery and
response system, which reaches people wherever they are.
And these claims that there is diversion taking place by Hamas or its affiliates or whoever, we would love to see some evidence that actually
corroborates these claims. We have not, to date, received any such evidence. If we had, we would obviously look into it and see if there is
anything that we need to change or improve.
But we have systems and we have mechanisms to prevent such things, including monitoring during distribution, post-distribution, various
hotlines. We are responding -- we're accountable to our donors for the funding that they provide to us to make sure that they know where this
money goes. And all of these things are in place.
And even above that, to have this risk of diversion as the overarching reason to dismantle a system is completely unreasonable.
GOLODRYGA: So, when you were working with providing aid and distributing it prior to the blockade, you weren't working with Hamas officials in
distributing that aid? I guess that's one of the other allegations made by Israel.
CHEREVKO: We distribute to the people, again, through various methods. One of the ways that we distribute is directly to families. Right now, we're
not allowed to do that. We are only allowed to bring in very limited type and volume of aid that is not allowed to go directly to families. The --
GOLODRYGA: I was just going to ask if you could give us a sense of what is in some of these food packets that are being distributed by the Gaza
Humanitarian Foundation. Are you in touch with those distributing the aid from the organization? Tell us what you're hearing, what you're seeing in
some of the stories that you can relate to us?
CHEREVKO: Well, I mean, I think we've all seen the pictures and the videos of the various packages and the kind of ingredients that are part of these
packages. We, again, we're not part of this distribution and any of the elements that it entails.
[13:15:00]
So, I could not confirm to you what these ingredients are. But of course, we have all seen the same. But again, I want to reiterate that it's not
just about food and it's also to give you an idea we have in our system. We have over 400 distribution center -- points.
GOLODRYGA: Sites. Yes.
CHEREVKO: And so, that ensures in itself to make sure that people are not left without aid. And again, it's more than just food, people need shelter,
people need medicine, people need water and sanitation and services and all kinds of things to survive.
GOLODRYGA: And what are you seeing now? Because as you point out, it's not just about food. I know there's also a concern about medicine getting in as
well. What are you hearing from those in Gaza who are saying they're not getting enough?
CHEREVKO: I mean, the healthcare system is decimated, and it has been for quite some time. Less than 40 percent of health care facilities are
actually able to function. And all of them -- the ones that are still partially functioning are obviously struggling. And especially the
hospitals that are accepting basically daily trauma case influx and mass casualty incidents are the norm these days.
And of course, there's a massive shortage of specific medicines, equipment that has been run into the ground because there's no spare parts. And also,
the things -- you know, we are in a massive fuel crisis at the moment as well. So, really, if the situation doesn't improve in the coming days, we
could see a further shutdown of healthcare facilities and other life critical facilities.
GOLODRYGA: Olga, I really appreciate your time. Thank you. It's difficult to get a real sense of what things are like there, and I know that this is
important for you to relate to us, all of the stories that you are hearing and the shortages and the dire situation there. So, we appreciate it. Thank
you.
CHEREVKO: Thank you, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And later in the program, "Lights Out: Nat 'King' Cole." And I speak to the stars of a new play about the singer's attempt to become
America's first black TV host. That's after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Turning to Ukraine now, Russia launched another massive overnight attack on Kyiv, which President Zelenskyy says was one of the
largest the city has faced during the war. And now, a rare chance to speak to a Ukrainian soldier. Sergiy Stakhovsky is currently serving with the SBU
Alpha, the unit responsible for the daring remote drone strike on Russian airfields recently. He's also a former tennis pro, having previously
knocked Roger Federer out of Wimbledon. He joins me now from Washington where he is attending meetings.
Your tennis days, Sergiy, are a decade ago and they seem like a lifetime ago, saying that you are now wearing a military uniform. You have been
fighting this war on a number of fronts since the full-scale invasion in 2022. My first question to you is, I know you're here in the United States.
What is the purpose of this trip? What are your intentions here? Who are you meeting with?
[13:20:00]
SERGIY STAKHOVSKY, UKRAINIAN SOLDIER AND FORMER TENNIS PRO: Well, we're here to try to showcase our position and what's happening in Ukraine and
what we're still capable of and what are we doing and why we are fighting in this war, and what are our needs to the American public, American
government in terms of continuous support that we rely on daily.
GOLODRYGA: And what are your needs right now? Because as we've been reporting day after day, a new record seems to be set in terms of the drone
strikes, the missile launches against Ukraine in massive civilian locations. Some of the country's largest cities President Putin told
President Trump that he would need to respond following that daring operation that you took part in. But what are some of the needs that
Ukraine desperately needs right now?
STAKHOVSKY: Well, as you can see, we do need the anti-missile systems on the rockets for those systems because the number of daily attacks which are
coming under Kyiv, I would say civilian infrastructure in civilian cities is just incredibly big. And we do need those Shaheds and missile and
ballistic missiles to be shut down, and in large numbers. So, we do need those -- resupply of those rockets and it's essential for our citizens, our
Ukrainian citizens to be safe. So, we need those rockets and the systems to shut down and close our sky at some way.
GOLODRYGA: And do you have any assurances that the United States, we know that Europe has doubled down on continuing to provide aid and resources to
Ukraine, obviously, nothing can match the type of machinery and weaponry that the United States can provide. Do you have any insurances that will
continue?
STAKHOVSKY: Well, I personally don't have any insurances, of course, because I'm here just to represent the position of the military and my unit
in what we do. I wouldn't say that it doubled down in Europe, I would say they're trying to double up and scale up their support because they
understand the risks if something really goes bad inside Ukraine.
And we are here basically to present the case that, you know, Ukraine is fighting, but we'll be fighting whether it is supported or not supported.
There's -- it's not going to change anything. If you -- for some reason, and we hope it's not going to happen, that, you know, U.S. will cut all
their support. It doesn't mean that we're going to come to peace treaty with Russia.
They -- their whole goal in this war is to destroy Ukraine, to kill Ukrainians, to destroy Ukraine nation. Which means if we come to any terms
of peace with Russia, it's just a short-term break from what will eventually be a full-scale invasion again.
GOLODRYGA: As I've noted, you've participated in a number theaters of this war thus far, and the latest of which is that Operation Spiderweb, which
really just shocked the world and its scale and audacity. And the fact that you were able, after planning for some 16 plus months, to take out a number
of Russia's bomber jets that were located thousands of miles away from Ukrainian cities.
That asymmetrical warfare, that message is what to the world, that even the United States at times would question, can Ukraine really win? What is your
response with those types of operations?
STAKHOVSKY: Well, it's not really a message. We are just trying to minimize the capabilities of our enemy to strike those civilian cities. All
that strategic aviation was used to bomb civilian cities and critical infrastructure not to use in the military course. So, it was just to
respond. Well planned, well organized supervised by the -- our head of state and the chief of our security services. And it was, I think, an
exceptional operation which will -- in long-term will be in the history of war books of how to create a covert very severe damage to your enemy.
GOLODRYGA: And a very clear case and distinction between how Ukraine is fighting this war and how Russia is fighting this war. It appears to be
targeting civilian locations, I believe a kindergarten, a maternity ward just within this last week alone bombarded by Russia.
I mentioned Europe really taking the threat of Russia, expanding this war beyond Ukraine seriously. We've just now seen that the E.U. has introduced
a new package of sanctions against Russia targeting its energy and banks. This is something that, on a bipartisan level, it is now supported by
members of Congress here in the United States, and yet the president has not yet signed off on that. What is your message to President Trump about
that delay in signing off on it?
STAKHOVSKY: Well, we would really hope that he will eventually sign it off. It, I think, mean to us that in the near future, in the nearer future,
that Russian economy will be collapsing faster. It will create internal problems with which the Russian government will have to start to deal and
the citizens of Russia will start to actually ask questions.
[13:25:00]
Because right now, the only problem is, you know, how to kill the Ukrainians? And we want that question be gone from the agenda and start
asking the questions how they can survive within Russia?
GOLODRYGA: Let's talk a little bit about your personal life. As I noted, you're wearing a military uniform. Years ago, you were most famous for what
you were doing on the tennis court. And before the Russian invasion, you were living in Budapest with your family. You started a vineyard and then
you felt guilty and returned to service there in Ukraine. What keeps you going in terms of not only being apart from your family but really starting
a whole new chapter in your life, leaving your professional tennis career behind you?
STAKHOVSKY: Well, I wouldn't want to go into the personal life, but the -- it was not the sense of guilt why I returned to your Ukraine. It was a
sense of duty. It's the country where I was born. It's the country which I represented for my entire tennis career. And I played under my flag for
more than 20 years, represented my country in Davis Cup competition as a part of a national team. So, for me it was something that I must have done
at that time.
And what keeps me going is very simple, the level of hatred, which is shown to us by our adversaries, by our enemy, the way they treat Ukrainians, the
way they treat Ukrainian civilians. And I've seen in the firsthand, in a first years of war when I participated in different operations on the
frontline, how they treat civilians, how they kill and execute our prisons of war and civilian Ukrainians. It's something which will never fit in my
mind that it can be done by a human being.
So, what we all try to do within Ukraine is we are trying to prevent this from happening to the bigger number of Ukrainians. And this fight is not
for the land or for the, I don't know, gold, oil, or coil, it's a fight for the people because they deserve to live in a more sustainable environment
and not being treated like animals.
You see many images of our prisoners coming back from Russia with scars, they are underweight. Some of them lose half of their weight throughout the
year in prison. And the way they treat Ukrainians is just not human.
GOLODRYGA: It is gruesome. And I have to say, I was really touched by something you said in an interview about how it's incremental winning as
well each time a Ukrainian athlete goes out there representing its country around the world, on the global stage, shows that the country is surviving.
So, we appreciate your time, your commitment, and dedication to your country. Sergiy Stakhovsky, thank you so much for joining us.
STAKHOVSKY: Thank you. Thanks.
GOLODRYGA: And next we turn to the stage. The New York Theater Workshop has been transformed into a 1950s TV studio for "Lights Out: Nat 'King'
Cole." Written by Oscar nominated actor Colman Domingo and theater director Patricia McGregor. The show depicts the final broadcast of the famous
Crooners NBC variety show after a four-year long struggle to find advertisers willing to back America's first black TV host.
The show stars Dule Hill as Cole and Daniel J. Watts as Sammy Davis Jr. And as they navigate the reality of being black artist in a society that tries
to contain them, and they join me now. Welcome to the program.
Dule, I have to say, and, Daniel, you too, this was such a thrill to watch you perform on stage. The chemistry between your two characters. I learned
so much about the history and the relationship between you as well. But what's notable is at the time of his death in 1965, Nat King Cole was the
second highest selling musical artist of his time.
We should note that Capitol Records headquarters became known as the house that Nat built. He was America's first black television host. And yet, the
show focuses on the lower points of his career. And, Dule, I'm wondering why that was chosen to be the focus of this piece.
DULE HILL, ACTOR, "LIGHTS OUT: NAT 'KING' COLE": Well, I think what Colman Domingo and Patricia McGregor have done so wonderfully is they've held up
an American icon and deconstructed him to get at the soul of who we are as a nation today.
You know, oftentimes, we know the songs, we know the beauty of Nat King Cole's voice. We love to hear "Unforgettable." We love to say here is the
house that Nat built. When you talk about the Capitol Records building.
What we don't ever take the -- we have yet to take the time to count the cost of the journey of Mr. Cole. You know, at the same time that he was
being hailed as this magnificent Crooner, his -- there was a cross being burned on his lawn in Hancock Park, Los Angeles. His dog was being poisoned
for moving into a neighborhood. They shot a bullet through his window.
[13:30:00]
And I think there's a cost to grace and that's that -- what I think is the beauty of this piece is that if we're starting to take a deeper a look at
the journey of someone that we love and know to hopefully reflect on our fellow neighbors, to realize the cost of the journey of those who are
around us. There is a cost to grace.
And I think as the stage of life that we are in as a nation today, as the world, we have to start to, I guess, look a little deeper to connect with
the humanity of our neighbor. And that's what this piece is all about.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And learn more about some of the darker chapters that they endured in their life and not just the smiles and success that we had come
to know and celebrate. Daniel, one of the highlights of the show, obviously, is that tap dance duet between your two characters. Me and my
shadow. Incredible, gentlemen. Let's play a clip of that for our viewers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL J. WATTS, ACTOR, "LIGHTS OUT: NAT 'KING' COLE": Hey, I like it. Now, you are clean.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Daniel, tell me about the relationship between Sammy Davis Jr. and Nat King Cole.
WATTS: Oh, they were brothers. Sammy was like little brother to Nat King Cole. When Nat passed, Sammy took it very hard. He used to impersonate a
lot of people when he would do his songs and he would -- one of his favorite people to impersonate was Nat King Cole. And when Nat passed, it
just -- he couldn't do it.
There's like in the liner notes of Nat King -- sorry, Sammy Davis Jr. Sings the Nat King Cole songbook. That was just kind of like his homage to Nat.
He talks about how like Nat was just regular people. Like he was the same with everyone. He was -- he didn't put on airs. He didn't do all this
additional stuff just to like be liked. He was who he was at all times.
And Sammy, I think -- actually, Sammy sometimes struggled with that, and I think he looked to Nat to kind of help ground him in many, many ways. So,
when Nat passed, it was -- Sammy kind of felt the look back to being on his own in that way.
GOLODRYGA: Dule, something we saw throughout the play during commercial breaks, from the stage manager and the makeup artist, was the fact that you
were told, your character was told you need more power. The power, the pain, and just constantly hearing that, can you explain to our viewers what
that symbolized?
HILL: It symbolizes society telling you that you are not enough exactly the way that you are. And I believe that most people within our nation can
-- it can connect with something like that, especially in this day and age. As we look -- we're in the social media age right now. You look at the
billboards, you look at everything that's being sold to us, we're always being told that we need to be something else beyond ourselves. And that is
what we are highlighting within the piece.
Mr. Cole being as phenomenal as he was, as talented as he was, as gifted as he was, were still being told you are not enough. You have to be something
else. And what does that do to you when you hear that day in and day out, when it keeps chipping away at your soul? How do you maintain your -- the
love for yourself?
And again, I have to go back to Patricia McGregor and Colman Domingo, they really have done a fantastic job of crafting this piece. Patricia, as the
director, of really navigating the nuance of the journey to really get to the point where you stand up and say, you know what, I'm going to speak my
mind. I'm going to take up my space. I'm going to love myself for being me. And as you do that, that's when you start to find your power.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Patricia McGregor said this, it seems like a biopic that becomes this fever dream showing that Cole -- showing the Cole that people
never would have witnessed or imagined., a part that has pain and rage, and is exposed.
You know, Dule, it's ambitious enough and commendable enough that you capture that part of Nat King Cole. But the fact that you capture his
voice, his dance, his mannerisms. Walk us through that process because as I'm sure you are now aware of, you have received a ton of praise for doing
just that.
HILL: You know, I will say I'm not aware of, because I try not to get into reviews or anything.
GOLODRYGA: Well, you heard it here first then.
HILL: Thank you very much. Well, I appreciate the love. You know, but I -- you know, I always say that I sleep with Mr. Cole, because what I've done
is I've -- from the time we started working on this process, I have a whole playlist of him -- his interviews, of him singing songs alive, not the
recorded albums, and I would just play him throughout the night when I'm preparing for the role just to see what seeps into my subconscious.
[13:35:00]
I've gone and stood outside of his house in Hancock Park just to receive that energy, not too long because you don't want to be a black man standing
on a corner in Hancock Park. That wouldn't be a wise choice to stand out there for too long. But -- and I'm just taking all these things -- taking
in as much as I can, seeing what sticks within my soul, and then letting it have its way.
And I'm still learning so much about him. Even to this day, if I listen to him speaking or I see a piece of footage, even as you -- this -- the clip
that you played before we started the interview, you get a little bit more of his essence, and I keep trying to dig a little deeper and go a little
further into connecting with Mr. Cole.
And I will say, before the show, every day, I always ask God for it inspiration. And then I say, Mr. Cole, work through me, whatever. Give me
that energy, because energy is neither created nor destroyed. So, even though his life has transitioned to another realm, I do believe the energy
still exists. So, I say, Mr. Cole, impart onto me the energy that I need to tell this story on this night. And that's how I approach it.
GOLODRYGA: And you have that ability and opportunity to dig deeper every single night You're performing this hour and a half play. Daniel, the theme
of racism in America and the way that you have tackled on the role of Sammy Davis. Jr. and trying to find humor, right, and the jokes the -- trying to
be accepted in society, this is something that Sammy Davis Jr. navigated through his entire career.
how did you come to embody that in portraying him?
WATTS: Oh, I think, you know, it's something I deal with personally. You know, I try to bring as much of myself to it as much as I allow. Same with
Dule and Nat, to let Sammy kind of like speak his truth. I've been down all the autobiographies, the biographies, you know, the think pieces, and also
just living as a black man in America in the arts. You know, there's a -- I think it's Isley Brothers song, "I'm Laughing to Keep From Crying."
And, you know, it is, well, I'm laughing to keep from crying. You know, it's just -- that's a real thing sometimes that you are just -- there's,
you got to find the humor in it isn't, oh, what is it, when pigs fly, there's a song, keep your humor please, because don't, you know, there's
times like these that laughing matters most of all.
And you know, when we're in times like these, literally, in the world within our country, humor is usually the thing that gets us through. And
sometimes it's easier to take the medicine when -- you know, when it's inside some ice cream. And we try to do that with the show. It's like we --
there's a message that we need to deliver and you can't just beat people over the head with it, sometimes you need to give it with a little bit of
humor that'll help it go down a little easier.
And I think Sammy really, really understood that. I think he resonated with that. I think he tried to give as much joy as he could to both swallow the
rage, but make sure people also understood that there was rage there. And again, like Dule says, Patricia and Colman do an incredible job of infusing
that into this piece.
GOLODRYGA: It's a form of armor that Sammy Davis Jr., Nat King Cole, it was a superpower of theirs as well. But what you do so beautifully is you
break through that armor and show the inside depths and the uncomfortable moments that are so important for the world to see as well.
Thank you, Dule Hill, Daniel J. Watts. Brilliant show. Dule, I'll tell you again, because you haven't heard it apparently from anyone else. Fantastic
job, gentlemen.
HILL: Thank you so much.
WATTS: Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: All right. We be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Of all the sweeping government cuts made by the Trump administration, perhaps none is being felt so quickly as USAID. America's
Humanitarian and Development Agency has been largely dismantled in the name of government efficiency and rooting out supposed corruption. But around
the world, the consequences are real, even fatal. Dr. Atul Gawande is a physician and former head of Global Health at USAID, and recently visited
Kenya to see those consequences firsthand. He joined Hari Sreenivasan to describe what he saw.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks. Dr. Atul Gawande, thanks so much for joining us. You were one of the
administrators at USAID and President Trump and Elon Musk have pretty much dismantled the programs that USAID was responsible for. It's primarily an
organization that is administering aid to developing countries around the world. You just came back from a trip to Kenya where USAID funding is
crucial for providing everything from HIV/AIDS care to malnutrition. What type of impacts did you see on the ground?
DR. ATUL GAWANDE, FORMER ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR FOR GLOBAL HEALTH, USAID: First of all, it's not just cutting some programs, it's the dismantling of
the entire agency, the removal of every part of the workforce except 15 people left at USAID, and 86 percent of the awards being terminated. So,
it's a massive impact on the program.
So, then the question is, you said is, what's happening on the ground? I went to Kenya and I visited over the last couple of weeks the -- everything
from a national AIDS center, hospital for advanced cases, to primary health facilities to a refugee camp. And everywhere you look there is a
devastating impact. It is public health being dismantled in significant ways everywhere.
I can point to you some numbers, credible estimates indicate that this is all already costing close -- more than 300,000 lives. Most of them
children. Malnutrition deaths, for example, are over 60,000 child deaths so far. Another 120,000 deaths of children from treatable pneumonia and
diarrheal disease. So, this is devastating.
SREENIVASAN: One of the pushbacks that they -- we've received from kind of the farther right corners is how can those estimates be accurate? What is
the data? What is the tracking ability for us?
DR. GAWANDE: Yes. A couple of things. Number one, we have data from what's happened when countries have been cut off from aid for periods of time
before. There are also longstanding tracking of programs. So, I led Global Health at USAID. We could see in 2023 that there were 93 million children
and pregnant women who were reached. We could see the improvements in life expectancy that came from that. We have documented and -- that there is an
added six years of longer life because of the programs. And those programs have been cut more than 90 percent.
So, this is not theoretical. And then the reason I went to Kenya was to see the reality. So, for example, at a refugee camp on the border of South
Sudan, the World Food Programme has been cut to zero funding. They supply the food to the people in the camp with donations from other countries.
They've been able to supply only 29 percent of the daily caloric needs of families. And I saw deaths on a daily basis there from complications of
severe acute malnutrition. It's real.
GOLODRYGA: Here you are -- we've also had a conversation with Nick Kristof after a trip that he took to Africa as well, and you are describing very
specific incidents that you have witnessed firsthand on how, you know, policy preferences and changes and dismantling in Washington, D.C. have the
impacts of lives and on deaths in other countries.
And you have Secretary of State Marco Rubio telling Congress directly, you know, no one has died because of USAID. No children are dying on my watch.
How do you respond to that?
[13:45:00]
DR. GAWANDE: It's simply untrue. We have ample documentation. It's -- and they claim to be spending money that isn't spent. They claim to have the
ability to distribute programs that don't have people on the ground, and it's simply not happening.
It is easier when these people are living abroad and it's out of sight. But we're seeing this playbook applied not just to public health happening
abroad, we're seeing it applied at home. So, it's millions affected abroad and now it's millions at home. And we can see the consequences of that
right here too.
SREENIVASAN: Doctor, one thing that seems to have been a bipartisan effort across different administrations is PEPFAR. the President's Emergency Plan
for AIDS Relief. It's the largest commitment by any nation to eradicate any single disease, and it's responsible for providing HIV care in so many
parts of the world.
Secretary Rubio said to Congress that 85 percent of the organization remains active even after the administration made these cuts. Is that true?
DR. GAWANDE: It's not. Number one, let's just take this into context. There are 20 million people plus who are on HIV treatment because of the
compassion and contribution of the United States. And no plan for what happens if you're going to cut 15 percent of the people off. But
furthermore, it's nowhere near 85 percent funding moving forward. They've been asked for documentation repeatedly and they've not provided.
But I can give a very concrete example. One of the policies is that no prevention for HIV beyond the transmission of HIV disease from mother to
child is now allowed to be done. That's taken millions of people off of HIV prevention treatment.
I briefed the Senate Foreign Relations Committee before I left office in the last administration about a breakthrough prevention, a single shot
remedy called Lenacapavir, which can stop HIV for up to a year. We were ready to deploy that by the millions because this is all like a flu shot
that can stop HIV. That has been dismantled.
And we are trying to domestically also drive that kind of prevention program for HIV, but that too has been purged with the severe cuts for CDC.
So, this is happening at home and abroad.
SREENIVASAN: I want to also talk a little bit about kind of health in the context of research and universities. Right now, Harvard seems to be at one
of the epicenters of targets in the bullseye, so to speak. The president has not only dismantled USAID, but he's also frozen about 2 billion -- $2.2
billion in grants and $60 million in contracts to Harvard University. Give me an idea of how health research works and how, if there are longer
effects here that we should be looking out for?
DR. GAWANDE: My homebase where I came from after 32 years of being a professor was as a surgeon and public health researcher at Harvard, Harvard
School of Public Health, Harvard Medical School, and the Brigham and Women's Hospital.
I returned there. And what you are seeing now is the massive dismantling of -- that had occurred to a place like USAID now being brought home to our
systems for science, for health discoveries, and for universities at home. So, Harvard, now it's up to almost $3 billion has been cut off. That
includes my own research center's work on reducing the mortality of surgery. We've had more than 20 years where we've cut the death rate for
surgery across the United States and now the world by more than a third. And that same work that was creating the next set of advances was defunded
last week, along with all the other public funding at Harvard.
Now, what impact does that have? It ranges from dismantling programs that were showing the way to manage pediatric heart conditions to Alzheimer's
disease, HIV. Almost every American benefits from work that has been federally funded at Harvard and other institutions associated with it. And
the impact is going to be felt for years to come.
You know, the playbook from USAID has been applied broadly, and it's important not to just separate them into individual fights. You're talking
about in the new tax and spending bill that the administration is moving through Congress, it's more than 40 percent cut in the National Institutes
of Health. A similar, massive cut in the CDC and its public health and public health research capabilities.
[13:50:00]
Also, in NASA and in the National Science Foundation, the U.S. has been the leader for the world in advancing life expectancy and health through
innovations as well as in engineering and a variety of other areas, and that is now being sacrificed. We are sacrificing our ability to win in the
future. And you see that in what is happening at universities and in our institutions of science and public health.
SREENIVASAN: Give me an example. I mean, when it comes to research labs, I know, I talked about Harvard, but there's about $16 billion worth of
funding across the country in different research places that has been canceled so far. I mean, does that mean that the PhDs that are there are
defunded and are looking around and trying to figure out where they should continue their work, or ones that would've come to this university or these
colleges or these institutions aren't coming? How does it actually kind of translate down into this idea of kind of research lost, lead lost?
DR. GAWANDE: This is so important. This is now a terrible time for a young person who's interested in science. And the reason why is because one of
the biggest area of cuts for the National Institutes of Health are the training grants that support PhD students across the country.
So, the result of that is you have universities freezing, you know, not accepting any more PhD students at the moment. They're even rescinding
offers in instances, including for some at Harvard. Rescinding acceptances that PhD students had. And then, you have the professors and researchers
themselves who are in -- who are doing work cut off, having labs shut down. It is a devastating impact that will be felt for years to come.
SREENIVASAN: You mentioned the NIH. There was recently a letter published known as the Bethesda Declaration. This was sent out to the director of the
NIH, Dr. Jay Bhattacharya. It accuses the leadership of, quote, "prioritizing political momentum over human safety and faithful stewardship
of public resources." What do you make of that letter?
DR. GAWANDE: What's remarkable about it is that comes from the scientists within the National Institutes of Health who are reporting that they're
simply unable to do their work and unable to also support other programs across the country that were creating real breakthroughs, real
advancements, and now are under often ideological attack, often not grounded in real science or facts and making it incredibly difficult for
them to do their -- the job that they are legally supposed to do.
SREENIVASAN: When you look at this entire picture, I'm wondering like, is this something that can be restored if say there's a different party, a
different administration that comes in a couple of years? Does that get turned back on? Does it take years to undo this?
DR. GAWANDE: Yes. This is such an important question. The -- there are several layers of destruction and they're on different timelines. One layer
of destruction is our capacity abroad has been shut down. We're talking about tens of thousands of people that are deployed around the world to do
everything from -- at USAID, you know, support the Ukraine health system to keep going and also its energy system to keep going to some of the poorest
places in the world and conflict zones for humanitarian assistance and so on.
That soft power capacity that the U.S. has had to do good and work on areas of mutual benefit, such as controlling HIV, that is dismantled, that is
gone, and it took decades to build up, including the relationships and the capacities, and that's not coming back anytime soon.
The universities, even as much money as places that Harvard -- like Harvard have, can't keep, you know, linear accelerators for major physics programs
running. They can't keep genome programs running that are -- you know, that have massive infrastructure capacity.
And over the next few months, especially if this next budget cuts the NIH by 40 percent, you're going to see that dismantled and disappear. We are --
we have stopped welcoming people, the best and the brightest to come from abroad. We don't have enough engineers. We don't have enough biotechnology
researchers. We don't have the -- and we want to be the place that attracts the greatest talent in the world, that's already shut down and the trust
that that is going to come back is harmed for years to come. All of it is happening at once though, and that is the really damaging thing.
[13:55:00]
SREENIVASAN: Dr. Atul Gawande, former assistant administrator for Global Health at USAID, thanks so much for your time.
DR. GAWANDE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you
can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
