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Amanpour
Interview With Council On Foreign Relations President Emeritus, Former U.S. State Department Official And Centerview Partners Senior Counselor Richard Haass; Interview With The New Yorker Staff Writer Susan Glasser; Interview With Palestinian Poet Mosab Abu Toha. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired June 16, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Israel and Iran intensify their attacks as G7 leaders meet in Canada. So, where is this conflict headed? I ask veteran U.S. diplomat Richard Haass.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN): This cannot be the norm. It cannot be the way that we deal with our political differences.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- in one weekend, a Minnesota lawmaker and her husband are shot dead. Crowds across the U.S. attend No Kings rallies. And President Trump
hosts the largest military parade Washington, D.C. has seen in decades. The New Yorker staff writer Susan Glasser joins me to discuss the political
atmosphere in the country and its real-world impacts.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOSAB ABU TOHA, PALESTINIAN POET: This is a level of anguish that no one can imagine in this world. Because this is -- this has been going on for 20
months.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- life and death in Gaza. Pulitzer Prize winning poet Mosab Abu Toha tells Christiane how it feels to win that award, from his work
documenting the home he was forced to flee.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Iran State Television Channel says that it has been attacked by Israel. This video showing a TV anchor on air as the station appears to be hit in
real-time. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says his country's Air Force controls the skies over Iran's capital city. Casualties in this
conflict are mounting. In Iran, 224 people have been killed. In Israel, 24.
These satellite images showing the damage to one Iranian facility. In Tel Aviv, this video shows emergency workers at the site of an Iranian missile
strike. And right now, world leaders are meeting in Canada for the G7 summit where there is disunity over a joint statement on Iran.
So, let's bring in Christiane for her reaction and analysis at this tense moment. This is the state of play, Christiane, where I'm here filling in
for you, but we're getting your expertise because this is a conflict you have been covering now for decades. And I'm curious to get your assessment
of where things stand.
I just spoke with a former Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant, in his first interview with the United States Media. And he said, in his words,
that the U.S. has an obligation to help Israel's operation in Iran right now. Just your thoughts on that.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, I am on assignment elsewhere, but also on this story. So, happy to join.
You know, that is the -- one of the big questions is will the U.S. get involved? I understand from my reporting that the U.S. is in some way
involved in helping Israel deflect these incoming from Iran. But notice, this is a very different situation than it was in October. The United
States is not, you know, saying that very publicly.
Certainly, Israel does not have the same amount of allies that it did in October, November. None of the Arab states, none of the, you know, other G7
and other members are involved in helping Israel deflect any in incoming, and that's because U.S. is the only country that is outwardly supporting
Israel in this. And at the G7, all the partners are not supporting it, and they want a de-escalation.
Yoav Gallant and Bibi Netanyahu, given what they said to you, clearly want to draw the United States in, and the question is, will Trump be drawn in?
The other question is, given what you just reported and what we've seen, hitting state media, talking about civilians evacuating, you know, and
seeing that they do have control of the skies and they have practically for the beginning of this, what is the actual subtext of this?
Is it just to damage and set back and if they can destroy the nuclear situation there and the military targets, or is it regime change? Now,
they're vigorously saying it's not regime change, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
[13:05:00]
There are many targets since Friday that have not been leadership -- well, that have not been nuclear related or military, but very much leadership
related. You also have that reporting, I don't know whether it's confirmed yet, that Trump apparently personally vetoed the supreme leaders, he's
known there, Ali Khamenei being on one of the original hit lists.
He may still be. But certainly, there is a feeling, including what Netanyahu himself told Fox News this weekend that this may help Iranians,
you know, rise up against their regime. And you also heard the Israeli president tell CNN that after -- you know, before backing off and saying,
no, no regime change is not our goal.
But it clearly appears to be, at least, in the back of their mind. So, we don't know where the off ramp is. Everybody's calling, certainly at the G7,
for a de-escalation, but there doesn't seem to be any off ramp because the U.S., Trump is not pressuring Israel. Bibi Netanyahu appears to be in
charge of this mission, and he has made a direct hit on the diplomatic path by killing Shamkhani, Ali Shamkhani, who yes, used to be in the military,
now is a political aid to the supreme leader, but most importantly was the director of the current nuclear negotiations.
By killing him, they hope to kill off any diplomatic resolution, because Netanyahu has never wanted a diplomatic solution. He doesn't believe in it,
and he was fundamental and instrumental in causing President Trump in 1.0 to withdraw from the JCPOA, otherwise known as the nuclear agreement
between the U.S., Iran, and the rest of the world. Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: Also, Christiane, in my interview with Yoav Gallant, to that point that you just raised, that it had been reported, that the president
of vetoed an assassination of the supreme leader. When I asked him his thoughts on that and whether that was a mistake he said, quote, "All
options are on the table."
And to the point of potential regime change in the country, whether that was indeed one of Israel's targets, he said, quote, "I'm not resisting. I'm
supporting a change of regime in Iran, but a lot of it has to be done by the Iranian people and not by us, and not by America." And that seems to be
the line that we're hearing from this government.
I interviewed Foreign Minister Gideon Sa'ar yesterday, and he was saying something similar about that this -- they would not be disappointed in
regime change, but this is something that would have to be done by the Iranian people. What are you hearing?
AMANPOUR: Well, that means that they hope their campaign facilitates, enables the Iranian people to rise up. So, look. There is no doubt that a
huge majority of the Iranian people want to see a different government. They want freedom. They want to be able to afford their daily, you know,
groceries and schools and energy costs, all the same things that everybody else wants. And the sanctions and the Iranian mismanagement of the economy
over decades, but the massive sanctions have made that very, very difficult.
Iranian people are under huge pressure, but when your country is attacked, is what I'm hearing from a lot of people inside, by a foreign power, it
makes you less able and less willing to go out in the streets and rally around, in this case, let's say the Israeli flag. Instead, according to my
sources, who I've been talking to over the last few days, there is, in their words, a surprising consolidation and rallying around Iranian flag.
So, it's about patriotism to the nation, even if they don't necessarily believe in the current government. So, that's one issue. And we don't know
how that's going to pan out. But what we do know is up until now, every time the Iranian people have demonstrated their desire for change, whether
it was in the Mahsa Amini uprising known as Women, Life, Freedom, which by the way, Benjamin Netanyahu said in person to the Iranian people. I mean,
make of that what you will, but he urged them to take that slogan again to heart.
But then and in the 2009 so-called Green Revolution, when people came into the streets, the regime showed no mercy in cracking down. They still have
that ability. So, that is what's -- you know, the reality of what's happening on the ground right now.
If, you know, any nation or people or faction can turn the military or the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, well then maybe that's a different
thing. But at the moment -- and we don't know what's going to happen next. At the moment, it appears that they're mostly scared. They're staying in
their houses -- and because, including the regime targets who they've got, and I know this because I've talked to somebody who's lost a relative,
buildings have come down as we, and in those buildings are also civilians.
[13:10:00]
And so, there've been a lot of injuries and death, and Iranians just hasn't had this situation since the Iraq war, since Sadam Hussein invaded Iran and
last an eight-year war. So, that's the complicated situation on the ground.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, an eight-year war that lost about a million lives there until ultimately the Supreme leader said that he was forcing himself to
drink poison, to bring that to an end. And nobody wants to see a war go on like that with a death toll in those numbers. Christiane, I know you'll
continue to follow up with your sources and bring us any reporting that you have. You'll stay on this story for us in the days and weeks to come. Thank
you so much. Great to have you on your program here.
AMANPOUR: Thanks, Bianna. Take care.
GOLODRYGA: And for more on how the U.S. is navigating its response to this, Richard Haas has held various senior roles in the U.S. State Department and
is president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations. He's joining me live from New York.
So, Richard, I do want to get to this question of what ultimately the U.S. role will be here, if, in fact, as we heard from Yoav Gallant, that it will
require the United States to finish the job. Let's play the sound of when I asked him about that, specifically going after Fordow, one of its nuclear
sites that most experts believe Israel cannot take out unilaterally.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Is the ultimate goal here to eliminate Iran's nuclear program with the United States assisting Israel?
YOAV GALLANT, FORMER ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER: Well, we are -- after the beginning of the war, the resolution have been made and there is only one
option now, to go forward and to accomplish the job. The job have to be done by Israel, by the United States, by the free world. We don't see why
Iran need a civilian nuclear energy. They possess 11 percent of the oil and gas reserve in the world. Why do they need any kind of nuclear energy?
And the reason is different. They want to possess nuclear weapon in order to create harmony in the Middle East, to threaten everybody around them,
including Israel, but not only Israel, it's Europe, it's the Gulf State. They want to create something different, and they want to control the
Middle East as they control their own people as a brutal regime. We are not going to allow that to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Richard, what do you make of that, the former defense minister who spent a lot of time meeting with American officials and the Biden
administration when he was in office then, saying that the United States has an obligation tom, quote, "change the Middle East and influence the
world in assisting Israel"?
RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT EMERITUS, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, FORMER U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL AND SENIOR COUNSELOR, CENTERVIEW PARTNERS: I
would say actually the United States has a big decision to make. You know, Israel's policy, as you were just talking about, Bianna, with Christiane,
there's two goals. One is the goal of regime change, but I would call that more of a hope, not a strategy. because there's no way that Israel can say
if we do A, B, and C, regime change will come about. And you also never know what the successor regime or situation will be like. So, let's put
that aside.
The other thing you could do is you could say the purpose of this war is to seriously degrade. You can't eliminate the nuclear capability, but you
could seriously degrade it. You can't eliminate it, because there's probably places that have nuclear materials that we don't know about. You
obviously can't eliminate the know-how within people's heads. Iran could always reconstitute certain things in places even harder to get to than
Fordow.
But I think the big decision for the United States right now is, does it give Israel the ammunitions and anything else it needs to attack Fordow
with the confidence, it could destroy a large percentage of it? And that's the decision we're going to have to make. And I think in favor of that,
just to be blunt, is the idea that we don't want Iran any day to ever emerge, if you will, as a Middle Eastern North Korea. The United States had
opportunities to attack the North Korean program in its infancy, we didn't, largely because we didn't want to trigger a larger war on the Korean
peninsula, but we don't have those constraints now.
So, I think it's a real issue for the president and his problem is politically. You've got people in his base who are divided on it. And
you've got those who favor it, and you've got those who fear it would lead to ever greater American involvement in the Middle East and in a war. So,
this will be one of the big, early decisions of his presidency.
[13:15:00]
GOLODRYGA: And you're alluding to some of the divisions and fractures that we're seeing specifically within the MAGA base. Some of the bigger names
like Tucker Carlson, who the president really took aim at this weekend, saying that America First also means a nuclear free Iran. And also, that he
ultimately will make the decision, that is President Trump.
One idea I heard floated, I don't know how much validity there is to it, is the option of no boots on the ground, no military personnel fighting in
assisting Israel, but perhaps the United States providing Israel with the military equipment, the B-2 bombers, the bunker busters to get the job done
themselves. How valid do you think those ideas that are being floated are?
HAASS: Well, this is a war essentially without boots on the ground. You're not seeing Israeli ground forces involved. It's because of the geography.
So, this is a war both countries are largely fighting from the air. Let's put aside the Iranian proxies, like Hezbollah, Hamas, that have been
involved on the sides of this.
The real question is whether the United States offers up munitions and anything else, it could be intelligence. I don't think Israel would need
American B-2 bombers. Best I know they're not trained to fly them. But again, that's a subsidiary issue. The real question is, does the United
States want that to happen?
Does the United States want Israel to seriously take out this Fordow complex? And if so, I think the part of the answer then, well, what happens
next? Is it linked to some type of a diplomatic initiative? Do we give it to Israel under certain diplomatic conditions and so forth? And that's the
kind of thinking the administration's going to have to go through.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, something else that Yoav Gallant said to me when I asked him about the war in Gaza and what impact, if at all, this new operation
has, and in his view, and remember, one of the reasons that he ultimately was fired from his post and what sparked some of the divisions between him
and Prime Minister Netanyahu was that Yoav Gallant became quite critical of what he described as a lack of strategy, a day after plan, and he said that
the situation was ripe for a ceasefire hostage deal at the time when Prime Minister Netanyahu opted not to go for one.
And he said that if this war in Iran, if they are able to accomplish their goals sooner rather than later, he thinks that will ultimately lead to a
deal in Gaza. What do you make of that?
HAASS: Not clear to me because they have different dynamics. If Iran is that weaker as a result of this, it might be that they're in less of a
position to help Hamas. But again, Hamas seems to be largely self- sufficient, albeit it at a lower level at this point.
No, I actually think there's other things to take from this. Israel's behavior in Gaza, if you will, from October 8th on, has clearly heard its
standing in the United States and obviously with Europe. We're seeing that at the G7. And Gaza's a good warning that what Israel there got into a war
with war range that could not be realized. The total elimination of Hamas.
So, now, in this war with Iran, I believe it has to be careful not to make the same mistake. The war aim cannot be regime change. Again, there's no
way to build a strategy to bring that about. It may happen. But then you're simply fortunate in principle. And the other is to -- again, to eliminate
Iran's nuclear program.
So, Israel, it seems to me, needs to define achievable war aims and marry a military strategy to a diplomatic strategy, and I haven't seen that in
these cases yet.
GOLODRYGA: What do you make of the president, President Trump's phone conversation with Vladimir Putin? Obviously, Vladimir Putin has a stake in
this as well, given his relationship with Iran as his war in Ukraine has now surpassed three years. Vladimir Putin said that he would like to help
in bringing this to an end and finding a resolution. We know the complicated relationship between these two men and it's very rare that we
hear President Trump criticize Vladimir Putin. Do you think that he could enter the fold here and play a larger role?
HAASS: He could enter the fold, he could play a larger role, but I see no reason to believe it would be a constructive role. First of all, he likes
the idea of disarray here. Why? Because that raises oil prices, which is good for his economy. That's the one thing Russia can really export right
now.
Plus, it's really rich. The word that comes to mind, Bianna, one you're familiar with, is chutzpah. For the Russian government to denounce Israel
on the basis that Israel is attacking a sovereign country, really, after three and a half years of the second phase of its war against Ukraine. So,
no, I think the United States should thank the Russians and basically say, if you're so interested in promoting world order, world order begins closer
to home, in this case with Ukraine.
[13:20:00]
GOLODRYGA: Chutzpah, hypocrite. I mean, however you want to describe it there, but I get your point, Richard. The idea of whether Israel's ultimate
goal here is just eliminating or degrading the nuclear program years, by years, which is what Yoav Gallant said he thinks has already been
accomplished in these first four days, though I think others have been a bit more skeptical of that note, or whether it's ultimately regime change.
There seems to be one message from this Israeli government when asked that question. Here's what President Herzog said on that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISAAC HERZOG, ISRAELI PRESIDENT: -- for decades. And we all believe they're fed up and it is their chance to rise and change the regime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: The same with Yoav Gallant telling me, I'm not resisting I'm supporting a change of regime in Iran, but it's going to be done by the
Iranian people, not by the Israelis or Americans. Your take?
HAASS: Well, that's right. It can't be done by Israel and the United States. I think it's a long shot, given the dynamics in Iran. But I think
it raises a larger point. We've talked over the last few minutes about decisions the United States has to make about whether the supply Israel
with certain ordinance Israel has to make about its war aims.
Well, Iran has to make some big decisions too, and you alluded to some of them with Christiane. For example, does at some point it sue for peace,
accept diplomatic outcomes on the basis that they need to do so to save the regime, to preserve the revolution. The analogy there again, is the late
'80s with Iraq.
Another option for Iran though is to widen the war. I can imagine there'll be those in Tehran who'll say, look, we need to make the Americans, the
Europeans, and others pay a larger price for this situation. The way to do that is to raise the price of oil, to interfere with shipping, to attack
Saudi oil installations. So, I think that's an option for Iran.
And the other possibility, by the way, is just to let this to drag on. People keep expecting a dramatic end to things soon. Another real
possibility, like the war in Ukraine, like the war in Gaza, is for this war to simply be open-ended.
GOLODRYGA: Richard Haass, always good to see you. Thank you so much for your expertise. Appreciate the time.
HAASS: Anytime.
GOLODRYGA: And later in the program, the writer capturing the physical and emotional carnage in Gaza. Christiane's conversation with the Pulitzer
prizewinning author and poet Mosab Abu Toha.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Now, after a nationwide manhunt, the suspect in the shootings of two Minnesota lawmakers and their spouses has been arrested. Democratic
State Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband were killed in what Governor Tim Walz has called a politically motivated assassination. State
Senator John Hoffman and his wife were wounded.
Joining me now to discuss the significance of this is staff writer at the New Yorker Susan Glasser, joining us from Nantucket, Massachusetts. Susan,
it is good to see you. And we just got a latest police and FBI briefing on the suspect. No motive has yet been determined, but charges have already
been filed against him and, they are quite chilling, just the details that we know now of Vance Boelter shooting Minnesota lawmaker dead and her
husband, they found a nine-millimeter Beretta on him, body armor and mask and notebooks containing names of 45 state representatives.
So, quite a lengthy hit list that we had found on him as well. What do you make of this, especially given the heightened political tensions in this
country?
SUSAN GLASSER, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: Yes, that's right. Of course. You know, I mean this is something that I think lawmakers in both parties
across the country, at all levels of government are realizing, you know, that they might be vulnerable to this. I think members of Congress already
expressing alarm and, private phone calls this weekend among their conferences. It'll be interesting to see when they come back to town in
Washington, to what extent this becomes an issue for their leadership.
Of course, state legislators realizing that it's not just at the federal level that this kind of politicized rhetoric might actually have terrible
consequences for individuals. So, I really feel like it's one of those moments that, you know, you hope people sit up at attention and say, you
know, things have gone really quite too far in this country. And the demonization that exists is something that is really shocking for
politicians in Minnesota and across the country today.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and we heard condemnation from the White House and administration officials as well to this. But political assassinations
sadly are a topic that we've been covering at greater length over the past year and a half, that is for sure. And the president himself being subject
to two of them.
And this is clearly an issue that's affecting both Republicans and Democrats, what are you hearing from members of Congress in terms of their
vulnerability, fear of their safety? I mean, do we need to have more security in place now and a reassessment of how some of our lawmakers are
protected?
GLASSER: Yes, I do think that there is an enormous fear among members of Congress that has some justification. And, you know, increasingly, we have
already seen more security for more high-profile members of Congress and not just the members of the leadership, but many individual high-profile
members of Congress have needed security in recent years especially in the Trump era.
And I think one of the questions I have is the U.S. Capitol has been largely one of the more open and accessible parts of Washington to
journalists, to members of the public. And you know, I wonder whether the longer-term consequence is going to be to cut the elected representatives
more off from the people, not only in Washington, but possibly in state capitals around the country as well.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Senator Klobuchar told The New York Times that, people have just gotten angry and angrier and they have started to act out what they
read online. At some point, you've got to look in the mirror when you look at what's going on here, every single elected official does.
And that really raises a question that we've heard many members of Congress, elected officials, those that are even contemplating going into
politics, asking themselves, is it worth it? Why should I risk not only my life, but obviously the lives of my family members as well? Are you hearing
similar concerns?
GLASSER: Yes, absolutely. Remember, it's -- so, first of all, there's this terrible threat of physical violence against elected officials, but also
just the demonization, you know, of elected officials, public figures of any type, including journalists, by the way, and their family members. You
know, this is a very hateful era of public speech, even to stopping short of physical violence. And so, it's really -- it's become a very polluted
public space.
And I would remind people that it was -- you know, this is not unique to the Trump era, unfortunately. You know, remember Steve Scalise, who is a
Republican elected member of the leadership on Capitol Hill, who was shot during a practice for the Congressional baseball game quite a number
(INAUDIBLE). He luckily survived that. But it's a reminder of the vulnerability of people who have made their lives in the public sphere.
And, you know, I just see that threat escalating and escalating, unfortunately.
GOLODRYGA: Speaking of a unique phenomenon, let's talk about what we saw over the weekend, and that was that military parade in Washington, D.C. It
was set to celebrate the 250th birthday of the U.S. Army, coinciding, of course, with the president's birthday.
But it's a scene unfamiliar to most Americans and made many of our top military officials, both who are retired and currently serving as we know,
and as you've interviewed and spoken to many of them, quite uncomfortable because while these are scenes we may see in other countries, it's not
something we see here in the United States, and perhaps that is for a reason. What did you make of what happened over the weekend?
[13:30:00]
GLASSER: Well, you know, it really was almost the visual representation of our split screen reality in the United States right now with the, you know,
just extreme levels of political polarization. So, you had Donald Trump on his birthday having this enormous, multimillion dollar parade in
Washington, D.C. at the same time there were thousands of No Kings protests around the country in the United States, and estimated 4 to 5 million
Americans participated in those. So, you know, it really underscored competing visions of the country.
At the same time, I was struck, as I'm sure you were, by the somewhat lower than expected turnout in Washington for Trump's parade. They had talked
about 200,000 people, a very large crowd for Washington, D.C., that clearly did not fully materialize. Something that I'm sure is a sore spot for
Donald Trump given his views about the importance of crowd size as an indicator of the popularity that he himself has.
But more importantly, I think, is this notion that Trump has that he wants to create militarized spectacles to cloak himself in the public optics of
the power and strength of the U.S. military. That's been something he's been attracted to since the beginning of his first presidency. It's
something that the non-partisan leadership of the U.S. military has really been, frankly, quite allergic to.
And you know, I'll never forget that memorable comment from Jim Mattis, the former Marine general, who was Trump's first defense secretary. He was
quoted in the first term as saying that he'd rather swallow acid than put on a military parade like that for Donald Trump. You know, well, Pete
Hegseth is a very different kind of defense secretary, and he seemed more than happy to participate in the parade this weekend.
My concern is not so much in a, you know, a spectacle that is over and probably quickly forgotten, but Trump's vision of a world in which he can
routinely deploy the U.S. -- uniformed U.S. military to quell domestic political disturbances as he's trying to do right now in Los Angeles. And
as he said that he would be willing to do anywhere else around the country if he determines that is necessary. That's a really different vision of the
use of the military than we historically have had.
I know it'll be a subject of court challenge right now in the federal courts, but to me, that's the bigger worrisome indicator.
GOLODRYGA: And then, you and I were talking about this, Susan, over the weekend, the sort of split screen it creates and dichotomy of, on the one
hand you have a president who is willing to send thousands of National Guards and even Marines when the governor of a state, in this case,
California, into the streets of Los Angeles, the second largest city in the country, are saying that, we don't need this assistance. We don't need the
show of force.
And yet, at the same time, you have a president who ran on America first and not starting wars and being very hesitant and reticent and to some of
his even critics, perhaps thinking correctly that the United States should not be interfering militarily around the world. So, what does that say
about his focus and his views on the military?
GLASSER: Yes. I mean, I'm so glad you brought this up because I just think this is really important to underscore. Donald Trump is redefining, in some
ways, the concept of national security to being domestic enemies, what he calls the enemy from within as being possibly the bigger threat to him than
even our international adversaries, such as Russia and China.
And right now, you have this bizarre juxtaposition where Trump has events more willingness to deploy the U.S. Marines to Los Angeles than to conflict
in the Middle East. And it also reflects a real disagreement among his core Republican supporters. You have America first types like Tucker Carlson
openly coming out and saying, even that it's time for Trump and the Republican Party to cut loose Israel and that we shouldn't be sucked into a
war of Israel's choosing.
At the same time that more traditional Republicans are urging Trump actually to get involved more directly on Israel's side and even to
participate in strikes to make sure that Iran's nuclear capabilities are taken out in the course of this new conflict that has just begun over the
last few days.
And so, you have a rupture inside of the Republican Party itself, and I think Trump's kind of zigzagging and sort of uncertain public messaging
since the Israeli strikes on Iran began a few days ago is a result of the fact that he himself hasn't quite made up his mind which part of the MAGA -
- he's going to endorse in this conflict.
[13:35:00]
GOLODRYGA: Yes. You had sort of an economic rupture within the Republican Party this year earlier as it relates to not only the president's budget
bill, but also tariffs. And now, it seems we're saying something similar when it comes to the use of military force and foreign policy. We'll
continue to be following this story, all of it. Susan Glasser, thank you as always for joining us.
GLASSER: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And do say with CNN, we'll be right back after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Now, people in Gaza could see tensions between Israel and Iran escalating over the weekend with these Iranian missiles seen from the
enclave. But as the world turns its attention to this new conflict, one Israeli columnist has warned that this is not, quote, "good news for Gaza."
Gideon Levy who writes for Israel's Haaretz newspaper says that Gaza will be under a shade. That's as so many civilians don't even have a slice of
bread to feed themselves and their families, after Israel imposed a full humanitarian blockade on food, medical supplies, and other aid for 11
weeks. The U.N. warns that with the hunger crisis worsening, a ceasefire is the only way to safely reach assistance -- reach people with life-saving
assistance.
Some of the most powerful and evocative depictions of life under bombardment comes from writers, like our next guest. Celebrated Palestinian
author and poet Mosab Abu Toha, who last month won the Pulitzer Prize for commentary for his series of New Yorker essays documenting the suffering of
people in Gaza.
Since October 7th, then the war in Gaza began, he's lost countless family members in the violence. And he joined Christiane from New York just before
Israel attacked Iran last week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Mosab Abu Toha, welcome back to the program. Firstly, congratulations and I wonder if you feel a sense of satisfaction or at
least doing your job to raise the plight of your family and friends and others in Gaza, because it's so difficult to get word out.
MOSAB ABU TOHA, PALESTINIAN POET: Yes. I mean, thank you so much, Christiane, for having me again. I think for any writer or journalist to
win a Pulitzer Prize is a satisfaction, but dissatisfaction is lacking because they -- the stories that I wrote about in the past year and a half
have been happening and happening again every day. Every day is the same stories that I wrote about, the destruction of Gaza, the blowing up of
houses after forcing people to leave them continues until today. The destruction of the refugee camp continues until today.
The starvation about, which I wrote, continues until today. What -- in different ways. This time, the starvation took a different turn in which
the Gaza -- the so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation has lured people into going to their sites where Israeli soldiers are not very far from
them, to shoot them and to kill them.
And I talked to so many people, some people I know from my family, some people who are my neighbors, some people who are my students who went to
their -- to that site and they were killed on the spot, whether by Israeli bullets, whether by Israeli shells, while they were gathering there before
or during or after, they collected some of the very, very small amount of aid.
AMANPOUR: Mosab, you are accusing Israel of directly killing people. Obviously, they deny that. They would deny that. Why do you say that? I
mean, deliberately. My word -- deliberately.
[13:40:00]
TOHA: OK. So, it's not me who is accusing Israel, it is the people who are there. People are there. There is only Israeli soldiers in the area where
the food sites are. So, it's not me who was accusing. And Israel before denied the killing of 15 medics in Rafah. And at first, they denied that.
And then there -- when there was a video, they came up with a different narrative. And then of course, there was no consequences for these actions.
So, Israel is accused of doing every killing in Gaza. This is what I know as a Palestinian who's living under occupation because Israel, as you know,
controls the sea, controls the air, and controls the land. So, every Palestinian who is killed in Gaza, for me, it is -- they are killed by
Israel. Unless there's any proof that proves that they were killed by someone else from maybe the space.
AMANPOUR: Well, as you know, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation is accusing Hamas of attacking one of its buses. That's just recently with aid workers
in it. But I also want to just say, to be clear, on June 1st, there was a shooting near the aid distribution site. 31 Palestinians were killed.
CNN's investigation was published on June 6th, and the findings do point to the Israeli military opening fire on crowds of Palestinians as they tried
to get food, they've declined to answer questions about CNN's findings. So, that is just to say, you know, that CNN has done an investigation. We're
still waiting for answers.
But, Mosab, let me ask you this, because the stories you tell of the humanitarian need and suffering are so visceral that it's really, really --
it's really hard to read. For instance, your latest piece that you refer to, you talk about family members who are forced to eat rancid flour. You
say -- tell me about what's that's like, when you asked your mother-in-law or your family members, why are they eating rotten flour? What are they
doing with it?
TOHA: So, Christiane, this is very heartbreaking, even to listen to this story again after I heard it from my sister and my mother-in-law who are
eating really food that cannot be eaten by animals. So, before I answer this, of course -- I mean, I -- as a Palestinian, I'm not going to wait for
CNN to run its investigations or to -- for the Amnesty International to call it a genocide. We are seeing this on the ground. We don't -- with all
due respect to the journalistic work that everyone is doing around the world.
We as Palestinians, this is very important. We are not waiting for anyone to confirm what we are seeing. These people I've talked to, these people
who posted videos of their own plight, they don't need anyone from the outside world to confirm what they have been talking about. So, let's just
be done with this.
The stories that you are -- that I talked about in Gaza, this is -- these are stories of people I know personally, people who I shared food with,
people who I offered food in my house when I invited them for a treat. So, these people are now eating really food that cannot be eaten by animals.
And my sister, who I talked to a few days ago, she told me that she -- while she was preparing the flour to be baked, she was wearing a mask
because the smell is really killing, and eating this food is more killing than this.
And the Palestinian people, when they try to survive -- you know, if every father and mother are responsible for many children. So, when they go and
try to get food that is promised to them, they are killed there. Yesterday, by the way, I posted a post from the Human -- Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.
They posted a post on 7:00 a.m. morning, the (INAUDIBLE) Gaza. It was a 3:00 a.m. in New York time. They said that no one goes -- no one should go
to the site near the Netzarim Corridor because three hours ago we were done with the distribution.
So, this tells you that they distributed the food, they call it distribution, which is really ridiculous because you do not distribute food
this way. When you put the food -- the packages in the middle of a site where there are Israeli soldiers, people, you know, crowd, you know, in big
crowds, they storm that aid site and collect, some people cannot go to that site, by the way, Christiane, because this is enough humanitarian. We
should we stop -- we must stop calling this a humanitarian foundation.
AMANPOUR: Yes. OK.
TOHA: Because the humanitarian work is very clear, you know?
AMANPOUR: Yes, I know.
TOHA: Who give the food to the people who need it.
AMANPOUR: I know. And the U.N. who has very long history of distributing it efficiently around is not allowed to do it, and has made a lot of
complaints about it. And -- as well as the Israelis around the perimeter, inside there are private American contractors. So, we know that this is not
working and we know that it has deadly consequences.
[13:45:00]
I want to still ask you though, about what your family and friends are telling you. I mean, I was shocked to read one of your family members said,
you know, basically they had put -- you had seen this - I'm going to read what you said, I could see some plates in a bowl nearby. They have nothing
in them, your Uncle Jaleel said. We let ourselves imagine that there is salad and some chicken and pickles as we chew the rice.
You know, and another one you say, your wife's mother, your mother-in-law, in order to cook, they're drilling outside to get the asphalt because we
ran out of wood and paper, your Auntie Maan (ph) says. The asphalt contains petroleum. I mean, these are visceral and really telling anecdotes about
the desperation and the lack. What are your family -- what else is your family saying to you?
TOHA: Well, you know, Christiane, there are adults in Gaza and there are children who are 50 percent of the population. What they are telling me is
that these kids, some kids are one-year-old, some kids are five years old, adults are saving food. They are denying themselves some food that they
have, even though it's rancid, to keep for the kids, they are asking. I have the cousin of my wife, her name is Sama (ph).
She's six years old, and she was crying. And my mother-in-law who lives in the same tent with them, she tells her, please just be patient. Be patient.
We are going to eat after sunset. They are unfortunately forcing these kids to fast 15 or 16 hours. And they would rely on drinking water that is not
easy to get, right? So, these -- they are forcing, unfortunately, kids to fast for about 15 hours.
And I have another friend of mine who is living in a tent since October, 2023. He has a daughter who is eight months old, and she doesn't have
diapers, which is something that we don't talk a lot about. He started to put rags of cloth instead of the diapers because they can't get diapers in
Gaza.
So, these people are starving and there is no medicine again. There is no medicine. I have a neighbor of mine, (INAUDIBLE). And this is the story
that I'm going to tell is not part of the piece because there is no -- there are lots of stories that I can write. He told me that his wife was
injured in a nurse wreck a week before the ceasefire in January.
And she had metal rod -- she has -- she still has metal rods inside and outside her legs. There is no -- there are no painkillers, there are no
antibiotics. And he tells me that there is no healthy food for her even to heal, even she's getting antibiotics and painkiller. There is no healthy
food for her bones and her flesh to heal.
So, this is a level of anguish that no one can imagine in this world, because this is -- this has been going on for 20 months.
AMANPOUR: Before you tell me another story, I want to know about your own family, because you said the last time we talked that you had lost
approximately a hundred members of your own family, obviously extended family. What is the number now?
TOHA: So, Christiane, I have to tell you, I hate to count how many members of my family are still alive or how many of them were killed because one
time I tried, that was in October, 2024. I tried to count -- you know, I was foolish to do this. So, I try to count how many members of my family
are still alive, my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my nephews, my nieces, and my wife -- Maram, my wife, told me, Mosab, stop doing that. Stop doing
that.
And then, I swear to God, a few days after that, my aunt -- my great aunt's house, Fatima Adebis (ph), Jabalia camp, was besieged by Israeli tanks and
Israeli soldiers for a day before the house was bombed on them and 15 people were killed. So, I don't want to count how many people working
killed.
But I can tell you that in four airstrikes in October, 2023, October, 2024, in four airstrikes, between those two months, I lost more than 50 members
of my family, relatives, between first cousins, between my great aunt, nephews, nieces. So, I lost all these people. My wife, also that same
month, just a few days after my great aunt's house was besieged by both soldiers and was bombed, her uncle, Saadi Abushader (ph), was bombed in his
house. He was killed with his wife, Gihan Masari (ph), with their three daughters. One daughter was killed with her husband and their three
children.
And, Christiane, until today, they couldn't find the remains of the -- Maram's families who were killed in that air strike in October, 2024. Until
today.
AMANPOUR: Yes. I understand that the authorities there, and it stands to reason, believe that there are a huge number of bodies still under the
rubble that even journalists who were just escorted in, a very small group, they say it's smells, you know, the stench of death is frequent and rising
in the areas that they go to.
[13:50:00]
Can I ask you, because you left, I mean, you'd left after a couple of months of the war. And you are in the United States. What -- first of all,
what is it like being outside? But more to the point as well, many Palestinians are refusing to move because they're afraid, this is the whole
point, they don't want to leave Gaza because they think they're never going to be allowed back. What are you hearing from your family and friends on
that issue?
TOHA: First of all, Christiane, being here in the United States, the country that is funding this genocide the country that has been vetoing
draft resolution that are seeking to accomplish a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza, it is very difficult for me to be here in this country. And
another point is that people, when I talk to them, my friends, my students, when I talk to them on the phone, they expect that I can help them from
here. They tell me, Mohamed Sal (ph), about whom I wrote in the piece. I was talking to him on the phone just to fact check some of the information
that he shared with me.
And before I ended the call, he told me, Mosab, I said, yes, Mohammed, what do you want? He was one of the people who were shot on June 1st near the
aid site in Rafah. He was shot in the foot and there was a video of him in the hospital, and that's how I knew he was shot. So, I talked to him three
days ago before the piece was published, and he told me after that, he told, Mosab, I said, yes, Mohammed, what do you want? He said, my five
kids, two of them were born after October 7th. He told me, my wife -- my five kids are in the tent and they don't have any food.
He's being treated in a hospital in Deir al Balah. Their -- his kids and wife are in Gaza City. He told me, Mosab, my kids do not have food. And he
paused, he expecting me to stir him. Oh, yes. OK. I'm going to send a ship or a boat, you know, to feed your family. I mean, I couldn't see anything.
People think that because we are here, because -- people think that we -- because we are here in the United States or in Europe, we are able to help
them. This is heartbreaking for me.
You know, not only to listen to their stories, but also to -- when they tell me these stories that -- hoping that I can help them, but I wish I
could help them. This world should help these people.
AMANPOUR: You obviously know your fellow writer, Omar El Akkad, who wrote a book and the title is extremely evocative. Essentially, "One Day, Everyone
Will Always Have Been Against This," is what he says, and I think it's very, very poignant that. But you posted on x this week, I am not writing
new poems these days. I'm simply reliving the poems I wrote before. Tell me about that and what will make you ready to write again.
TOHA: I mean, I simply wrote about so many stories that happened to me that I watched, that I heard happening to my people, my family, my friends, my
students. I mean, I really -- I haven't written a single poem maybe for five months, because I am literally reliving the poem that I wrote about,
whether it's about the destruction. I wrote a poem about a father going out to get some bread for his kids, but news of his death made at home, not the
bread, because he was killed while trying to get aid.
So, it is difficult for me, you know, to -- I mean, what more emotions, what more trauma am I going to experience having to watch this happening
again and again? The hope of a writer, the hope of a journalist like you and others, is that when they tell the stories, when I wrote about a story,
my hope is that the world will know about it. They will try to stop it.
But I've been watching the poems happening again and again. The stories that I shared with you a few months ago, happening again and again, and the
news that you shared with the people about the starvation, about the genocide, about the killing of families, about the attack on hospitals, on
school, they are happening again.
So, what is the point of us talking about it? What is the point of writing about a genocide, you know, for example, the Holocaust? What is the point
of writing about these atrocities? If the world is prepared to watch them happen again and even fund these atrocities, what is the point of writing
and sharing these stories?
AMANPOUR: Well, I'll tell you what, I spoke to a war crimes prosecutor and he said that is the point, the investigation, keep writing because that's
all we, that's all you have right now, and it's up to the governments to stop this and hold accountability. So, you're doing the right thing. You
keep writing.
TOHA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Mosab Abu Toha, Thank you.
TOHA: I have one last -- can I just add one small point. I have a request to the journalists who are not allowed to go to Gaza. I hope that they will
try to go on a boat or a ship to try to go to Gaza.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. I appreciate it. We are incredibly angered, frankly. It's unacceptable that we're not allowed in. I appreciate it. Thank you
very much, Mosab Abu Toha.
TOHA: Thank you, Christiane. Appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: An important reminder of the immense courage that it takes to keep telling stories from Gaza and why the world must continue to listen.
[13:55:00]
Well, as the world looks to an uncertain future for Iran's nuclear program, join us tomorrow for my interview with Rafael Grossi, head of the
International Atomic Energy Agency, who is sounding the alarm about the consequences of compromising nuclear safety.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAFAEL GROSSI, DIRECTOR GENERAL, IAEA: This development is deeply concerning. I have repeatedly stated that nuclear facilities must never be
attacked, regardless of the context or circumstances, as it could harm both people and the environment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Meantime, that is it for us today. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And
remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
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[14:00:00]
END
