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Amanpour
Interview with Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney; Interview with E.U. Foreign Policy Chief Kaja Kallas; Trump arrives in the Netherlands for NATO Summit; Interview with Campaign to Free Political Prisoners in Iran Co-Founder Shiva Mahbobi. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired June 24, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
I am not happy. A furious President Trump orders Israeli bombers to pull back after they violate his fragile ceasefire with Iran. Christian's
exclusive interview with Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney about this high stakes moment for the world.
Then a road to diplomacy, perhaps. I speak to E.U.'s top diplomat Kaja Kallas about the need to de-escalate and the importance of not forgetting
Ukraine's war effort.
Plus, Tehran's notorious Evin Prison caught in the crossfire with political prisoners unable to flee a safety. I speak to activist Shiva Mahbobi
campaigning to free those trapped inside.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
NATO leaders are gathering in the Netherlands for their annual summit at a time of geopolitical disarray, from the daily escalation of the Middle East
conflict to Russia's war in Ukraine, the threats to NATO and the world order are urgent and to many.
U.S. President Donald Trump took off for The Hague in a fury after Israel broke his fragile ceasefire with Iran. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Israel, as soon as we made the deal, they came out and they dropped a load of bombs, the likes of which I've never
seen before, the biggest load that we've seen. I'm not happy with Israel. You know when I say, OK, now you have 12 hours. You don't go out in the
first hour and just drop everything you have on them. So, I'm not happy with them. I'm not happy with Iran either. But I'm really unhappy if
Israel's going out this morning because of one rocket that didn't land, that was shot perhaps by mistake that didn't land. I'm not happy about
that.
You know what. We have -- we basically have two countries that have been fighting so long and so hard that they don't know what the -- they're
doing. Do you understand that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Extremely heated words there from Israel's staunchest ally. But can diplomacy succeed if the ceasefire survives. Among the leaders urging
that path is Canada's Prime Minister Mark Carney. Just a few months into his job, the former top economist won a surprise victory for his Liberal
Party, buoyed by anti-tariff resentment towards America.
And yet, despite Canada's tense relations with its neighbor, Carney has now become one of the closer world leaders to President Trump, speaking with
him just this weekend after the U.S. struck Iran's nuclear sites. And Christiane traveled to the Netherlands herself today for more on this.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Bianna, indeed. I'm here at The Hague. This the first day of the NATO Summit. President Trump
is on his way and the leaders will have their dinner together, as is traditional before the formal talks get underway tomorrow.
But in the interim, I have been speaking to the Canadian prime minister, Mark Carney, who I kind of say seems to have passed with flying colors, his
Oval Office test with President Trump and has developed a relationship with President Trump. They text each other, they talk to each other, especially
on all these important issues.
So, Iran will be a big focus of conversation, and you can hear that in our interview. Gaza will be as well. Will Trump use his leverage now with
Israel to get a solution and an end to the war in Gaza. And also, Ukraine of course. How will the West be able to sustain Ukraine's fight against
Russia and will they be able to get Trump to continue support in some way or another?
And here's our exclusive interview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Carney, welcome to the program.
MARK CARNEY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for having me. There is clearly Iran that's going to be dominating to a great extent your summit of
world leaders the first time you've all got together since this war in the Middle East. I want to know from your perspective, and you've talked to
President Trump, where do you think it is now? Is the war over.
CARNEY: Well, there has been obviously significant developments in recent days and recent hours. The position of Iran has been substantially degraded
both in -- with respect to airspace potentially, significantly with respect to their nuclear capabilities or development of their nuclear capabilities.
And that's created a window for this ceasefire, as we're talking today, as the president -- President Trump has declared a ceasefire. We'll see how it
holds.
[13:05:00]
The recent Iranian action, as you know, was consistent with leading up to actual de-escalation. So, again, as we're here today, it's promising, but
much more needs to happen.
AMANPOUR: What do you make of the Iranian response? I mean, there was literally everybody on the edge of their seats as to whether this was going
to be massive and trigger another massive U.S. retaliation. In the end, it was, in their words, proportional and in President Trump's words, kind of a
weak response. And he actually thanked the Iranians for even giving them all a heads up. So, they got everybody out of harm's way.
You know, there's a lot of noise in that part of the world, condemning the violation of, you know, Qatar's airspace and its sovereignty. But really,
what do you think is happening diplomatically? What are people thinking about this moment?
CARNEY: I think the military action -- I would lean towards President Trump's interpretation of it. The military action was also a diplomatic
move by Iran. It was -- I mean, we never welcome obviously hostilities and reactions, but it was proportionate, it was de-escalation. It appears to
have been previewed, which allowed -- and there are Canadian soldiers at the Qatari base as well.
AMANPOUR: Did you get them out of harm's way?
CARNEY: They were out of harm's way, yes.
AMANPOUR: So, it's par for the course, really, and it gives, as far as you're concerned, an opening for diplomacy.
CARNEY: It gives an opening for diplomacy. I think that's the right way to put it. And the question is, does that diplomacy really get traction and
move to ending this risk of nuclear proliferation. And does it lead as well to broader -- well, a broader ceasefire in the Middle East, including in
Gaza.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to get to Gaza because I know it's incredibly important to you and to so many people around the world. But just on this
issue, President Trump at one point posted about, hey, why not regime change if they can't make this, you know -- what did he call it, make Iran
great again? And why not change regime? Israel looked like it was really going for regime targets and a lot inside, frankly, densely populated areas
like the capital Tehran. And they said to give a space, at least for people to rise up and take their own destiny into their own hands.
Is that something you would've supported? Did you support it? I know you talked to President Trump on the phone during all this.
CARNEY: Well, look, we're not an active participant in these hostilities. Maybe that's an obvious point, but I'll just state that to begin with. We
very much have had a consistent position over many years that Iran cannot be allowed to have nuclear weapons. We see that events are making that
much, much less likely in the diplomacy taking its course. That's the responsibility of the Iranian regime as it is. They would serve the Iranian
people weld at a minimum to take the nuclear option off the table for Iran.
AMANPOUR: Do you see a way -- because they insist on having nuclear capacity and certainly civilian nuclear reactors, do you see a way? Has
anybody informed Canada, yourself about the way to do that?
CARNEY: Well, I think that the reaction of Iran and some of its partners or allies has revealed that the nefarious nature of much of its nuclear
program. I mean, there was denial. There was a fiction that they perpetrated that this was for only peaceful means or power.
AMANPOUR: So, you don't believe the intelligence that they had not made a decision to go for a bomb?
CARNEY: Well, they were enriching uranium to a degree. They were hiding the facilities or trying to hide the facilities over many, many years on a
path that created that was not necessary, that was entirely not necessary for civilian use of nuclear technology.
So, I think the combination of that, the combination of their belligerence, the combination of their state sponsor of terrorism throughout the region,
all of that points in one direction. And the reaction to the U.S. action also revealed the intent to create that ability, the Iranian intent to
create that ability to have nuclear weapons.
Yes, that's -- I think it's pretty clear to -- just in public domain information. And words, including words of the Russian allies.
AMANPOUR: And how seriously then do you take their desire to go to negotiations to resolve this peacefully? Because that's what they said they
thought they were doing when Israel started.
[13:10:00]
CARNEY: Well, they -- again, we weren't party to the negotiations, but they hadn't -- Iran had not proceeded with the final phase of those
negotiations prior to this action. We were not -- we didn't know the Israeli action was going to happen, to be absolutely clear.
How likely is it? I mean, this speculative. But the facts on the ground have changed. The risk calculation for the Iranian regime has to have
changed. The clarity about what their intentions were on -- with respect to their nuclear program, I think, has changed. I'm not surprised by that, but
it has changed. All of that should point to a resumption of negotiations to denuclearize Iraq.
AMANPOUR: Let's move on to Canada's desire, because you've said a lot Canada will lead, you want to help lead form new coalitions. You've said,
in fact, if the United States no longer wants to lead, Canada will, try to build a coalition of like-minded nations with like-minded values, et
cetera, and who believe in international cooperation.
What does that look like? And is that something that will trigger President Trump into more anger? He's already got these tariffs and he's already
said, if you guys essentially try to gang up on me, you'll have to pay for it even more dearly.
CARNEY: I think we have to look at this in the way we would like to lead the way European Union would like to lead, a number of Asian countries as
well, is in a positive respect. If the U.S. is pulling back from multilateralism as it is with respect to trade, these are effectively U.S.
trade policy is now bilateral. If the U.S. is pulling back there are others of us who do believe in multilateralism.
So, as you know, literally, I'm coming here. In the last 12 hours ago I was in Brussels agreeing at the candidate -- at E.U. Summit agreeing a very
comprehensive partnership and a process to have an ever closer economic defense and security partnership between Canada and the E.U. That is an
example of two jurisdictions, in the case of the E.U., that believe in multilateralism, believe in the rule of law, believe in fair and open
trade, believe in defense cooperation. So, that's an example of leadership, if you will, that's positive.
It's not a -- it's a reaction, if you will, to what's happening in the United States. But it's not a reaction against the United States. It's for
something not against.
AMANPOUR: But President Trump tends to be, A, transactional and, B, very personal. And sometimes he thinks -- or maybe you know, differently.
Apparently -- '
CARNEY: I don't think --
AMANPOUR: They say that you're the Trump whisperer of the leaders.
CARNEY: I'm not sure about that.
AMANPOUR: And that you're on texting, you know, relations with him and you're constantly talking. So, is he still saying he wants to annex Canada?
CARNEY: He's not. He's not. He admires Canada, I think it's fair to say. And maybe for a period of time coveted Canada, but --
AMANPOUR: You've put that to bed.
CARNEY: Well, look, we're two sovereign nations who are discussing the future of our trade relationships, our defense partnership, which has been
very strong in the past. How is that going to evolve? But again, I would say it this way, the president is focused on a series of bilateral -- of
changing bilateral relations. We're at NATO. He's been focused on making sure that all members, Canada included, of NATO pay their fair share or
carry their weight. We -- I think we are now doing that.
We've made major investments in defense in recent months. We're now at the native 2 percent. We're committed to accelerating that. We've got this new
defense partnership with Europe as another example. That's other countries stepping up. I don't see that that is at all in -- I think that's positive.
We're doing it for the own -- our own reasons, but I think it's positive for the U.S. relationship, not something that president react --
AMANPOUR: But it's pretty sudden and it's pretty overnight, you know, the whole dumping you in the, you know, now we have to take care of our own
security. And not only that, we have to help prevent this increasing invasion by a hostile force in Europe, Russia, against, you know, a
democratic sovereign independent state. Suddenly, it's all been landed on your lap.
So, how realistic is it in a time when you already have economic difficulties, so does some, you know, Europe and others to actually Europe,
2 percent, but now they want 3.5 percent and eventually 5 percent? Isn't that just going to cripple your budgets?
CARNEY: It's -- well, it's important. These are important questions and it's important to be clear what we are potentially and I think likely to
all agree tomorrow, which is -- and let's take the 5 percent of GDP figure, which is a big --
AMANPOUR: Huge chunk.
CARNEY: -- big number.
AMANPOUR: How much is it actually for you?
CARNEY: 5 percent of our GDP would be about $150 billion.
AMANPOUR: I mean, that's a lot.
CARNEY: It's a lot of number.
AMANPOUR: Per year?
CARNEY: Per year.
AMANPOUR: That's a lot.
CARNEY: Of course. It's -- it is a lot.
AMANPOUR: So, it means that that stuff that you can't give to your own citizens.
CARNEY: Well, OK, but --
AMANPOUR: Social --
CARNEY: Let's start to break it down.
AMANPOUR: Yes, but you know.
[13:15:00]
CARNEY: So, part of it, what -- a little more -- a little less than a third of that overall number is spending on things that, quite frankly,
we're already doing to build the resilience of our economy. So, it can be domestic resilience, it can be defending in areas that support defense, but
also, support other things. So, I'll give an example, critical minerals. It is obvious, I think, to everyone now the risk that's run being fully
dependent on China for critical minerals, including rare earth, magnets, and others, not just for defense industry, but for the auto industry and
others. Canada has one of the biggest and most varied deposits of critical minerals.
AMANPOUR: Which Trump was coveting.
CARNEY: We are going to develop those, we're going to develop those in Canadian interests. We're going to develop the, some of them in partnership
with the European Union itself and European Union member states with the U.K., other partners.
Some of the spending for that counts towards that 5 percent. In fact, a lot of it will count towards that 5 percent because it's infrastructure
spending, its ports and railroads and other ways to get these minerals out. So, that's something that benefits the Canadian economy, but is also part
of our NATO, our new NATO responsibilities. So, I'm not trying to downplay it.
I think the other thing I would say is. Where we sit today collectively, we, NATO countries are likely to agree to the other component of that, that
2 percent going to the 3.5 percent in 10 years. But the nature of warfare is changing very rapidly. We just look at what's happening in Ukraine.
I mean, you don't need an aircraft carrier anymore -- well, some do, but most of us don't. You need drones and you need the integration of drones
with your cyber capabilities, your broader -- air satellite capabilities. We're making a commitment, but we're not locking ourselves in -- we're not
signing a bunch of post-dated checks for the hardware -- military hardware of today to protect our citizens.
AMANPOUR: Talking about Ukraine, which is the war in Europe and the existential war, frankly, as Europeans see it.
CARNEY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And obviously, as Ukraine sees it. You have a massive Ukrainian diaspora in Canada. And the world was incredibly on Ukraine's side for so
long. It's almost like now it's an afterthought. President Zelenskyy was essentially, I'm going to say these words, stood up by President Trump at
your G7. I mean, Trump left before he even met Zelenskyy. I don't know whether he is coming and they're going to meet here. But if the United
States walks away, don't you think Russia will win?
CARNEY: No. The short answer is no.
AMANPOUR: Really.
CARNEY: I don't think --
AMANPOUR: Can you make up for the weapons that --
CARNEY: Well, we can't fully make up, but we can -- first off, I don't think the U.S. is going to, quote, "walk away."
AMANPOUR: Do you think it'll keep -- do you think Trump will keep giving weapons to Ukraine?
CARNEY: I'll leave that to the U.S. to determine, but there's other measures that can be taken. So, first off, have we forgotten about Ukraine?
Absolutely not. As you just mentioned, President Zelenskyy was at the G7. At the G7, Canada announced a major package of new financial sanctions
against Russia. Major defense support, major support for the Ukraine budget. The European Union is launching its 18th package of sanctions,
which will have very significant impacts on the financial sector in Russia.
There is --
AMANPOUR: But not the U.S. which is the most powerful.
CARNEY: Well, U.S. there is a sanction package working its way through the Senate. Lindsey Graham is sponsoring that. And if it is enacted, which is a
choice, but it will be a game changer. So, the U.S., even without military, and military hugely important here, it is a war.
AMANPOUR: Are you going to try to persuade Trump to keep supporting Ukraine militarily.
CARNEY: Yes, yes. Absolutely. Because it -- look, it is -- it's not -- yes, we have a diaspora and it's -- of course that's important and there's
personal ties. But this about rule of law, it's about territorial integrity. It's about support for democracy. And it has much, it does have
those wider implications. It's also it has real security implications for much of Europe, we are at NATO. We have -- under Article 5, we have
responsibilities to each other. We take those responsibilities seriously. That's why we're here.
So, there's many, many factors. Personally, I think in Canada, we would stop at -- start and stop at the human. We don't need all those other
responsibilities in order to supplement or to make the case for supporting Ukraine. Perhaps in the United States, a few other jurisdictions. They need
all of those elements, but those elements exist. And so, yes, we'll make a very strong case to the president.
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: I want to circle back to what we started talking about the Middle East and what you brought up, which is Gaza. Do you think there is
any way that there can be the kind of peace that people are talking about now in the Middle East if there isn't a resolution first to the Gaza
catastrophe and second, in general, to the Israel Palestinian crisis, trying to get a state for the Palestinians that lives in harmony, peace,
and security for all, and freedom? How much do you think you are all committed to that? And what will you do? What strikes you as the most
important thing to do next?
CARNEY: Well, I think when you have -- first your -- the core question, can there be a lasting peace in the Middle East without peace in Gaza? That
takes into account Gaza and West Bank, and effectively working on a path to a Palestinian State, you use several adjectives. I would agree with all of
those and living side by side in security with Israel, you know, a Zionist, if you will, Palestinian State that recognizes the right of Israel to
exist. Not just to exist, but to prosper, not live in fear. Now, we can't have peace unless we move towards that.
Second point, developments. As we sit today in the potential trajectory with respect to Iran, does create another window for that. In fact, only
eight days ago, nine days ago at the G7, we all agreed, President Trump included, that resolution of the crisis with Iran should be accompanied by
a broader reduction of hostilities in the region, including, these are exact words, including a ceasefire in Gaza.
AMANPOUR: Does that mean that President Trump could use his leverage on Israel to actually go to a meaningful plan, which was in the offing before
Trump was inaugurated for the Israeli forces to come out, for an Arab force and internationals to go in and to start a reasonable conversation?
CARNEY: Let's start with the basics, given the dire situation there in Gaza, which is --
AMANPOUR: The siege.
CARNEY: -- the need for a ceasefire. Now, a full resumption. I know there's some, but a full resumption of humanitarian aid. And then moving
forward from that. I'm not jumping all the way to a broader peace plan and, you know, accompanied to this, lest anyone think I'm not acknowledging
this, is released of the hostages.
AMANPOUR: Of course.
CARNEY: And there is the prospect, the possibility of that created again in the current circumstances. So, the question is to keep the focus on that
and move forward if at all possible.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Prime Minister the hostages have not been released except through a ceasefire and negotiations. The last batches of hostages who were
released were under those circumstances. In Israel itself, like the former Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, former defense minister, Moshe Ya'alon,
former, you know, security and intelligence and defense and security establishment are beginning and saying loudly that Israel needs to stop
this trajectory in Gaza because it's leading to war crimes and almost that war crimes are being committed.
You have said that you strongly oppose the expansion of the operations in Gaza. The level of human suffering is intolerable. Do you believe, like
many in the International Community, that the siege preventing food, medicine, water, and all the rest of it should be prosecuted as war crimes?
And I know your police are -- Royal Mounted Police are investigating some aspects of that.
CARNEY: Well, the first -- where we're focused is using this opportunity, the extent to which we have influence using this opportunity, if I can term
it that way, and I think it is an opportunity, to establish -- reestablish ceasefire in Gaza, reestablish the full resumption of humanitarian aid.
We're also focused on stopping the violence in the West Bank and the encroachments in the West Bank, which is why we took action alongside a
number of other countries against some cabinet ministers of sanctioned against --
AMANPOUR: Yes, the extreme right.
CARNEY: Yes. Who are act -- have been actively fomenting and perpetrating that. So, focus on that immediate aspect in order to start to build back.
AMANPOUR: And do you think President Trump -- I know you said that you all signed this communique in -- at the G7, but, you know, President Trump, I
think he's defined by uncertainty. We don't really know what he's going to say next. Do you think that he is really, I mean, in your private
conversations or your conversations? Is he committed to relieving this situation in the Middle East in a fair and just way?
[13:25:00]
CARNEY: Well, I think he has the potential to be decisive in the situation. He's used his influence in U.S. power and other situations.
We've just seen it in Iran. And again, to repeat myself, it does create the possibility of moving forward here.
And look, there is a moral imperative to move forward. There's also an imperative, as you animated in a question earlier about the pathway to
ultimate peace. This not going to lead to ultimate peace in the region unless Gaza is stabilized and then, ultimately, on a path towards a
Palestinian State.
AMANPOUR: Well, on that note, Prime Minister Carney, thank you for joining us.
CARNEY: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And coming up after the break, my conversation with the E.U.'s top diplomat, Kaja Kallas, on the Middle East, Ukraine, and Europe's role
in global diplomacy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Now, as tensions in the Middle East remain extremely high, European leaders, much like Canadian Prime Minister Carney, are also
calling for diplomacy. Imploring Iran and the United States to reengage directly. The E.U.'s chief diplomat, Kaja Kallas, says lines of
communication need to be kept open as well as taking down temperature in the Middle East. Ukraine is firmly at the top of her agenda, of course,
supporting Kyiv was a key priority for Kallas during her tenure as Estonian Prime Minister.
For years, she's been sounding the alarm about unchecked Russian aggression. And she joined me earlier from The Hague to discuss all of
this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Kaja Callas, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the program. First, let me get your reaction to what appears to be a fragile
yet set ceasefire now between Israel and Iran. President Trump reiterating that quite emotional this morning in his anger and frustration with both
sides. But it does appear that the ceasefire is in place. Your reaction.
KAJA KALLAS, E.U. FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF: Well, the ceasefire is in place, although both parties seem to be violating it, but I think it's important
and it shows that we need the diplomacy to work, because any ceasefire needs to have also conditions so that both parties know when the other
party is violating. And we have offered this path to diplomacy. We have had contacts with both parties and are willing to do so also on our behalf.
GOLODRYGA: Ahead of the U.S. strikes over the weekend, you actually held talks with the Iranian foreign minister on Friday, you posted on X at the
time, calling these talks, direct and honest discussions. And then, following that, President Trump told reporters before taking off -- before
the U.S. jets took off to bomb Iran. He said, Iran doesn't want to speak to Europe. They want to speak to us. Europe is not going to be able to help on
this one.
What is your reaction to that and what role, if any, are you willing and able to provide to maintain the ceasefire?
KALLAS: Well, everybody has their own role. If you think back to the JCPOA. I mean, Europe was the one conducting these negotiations. And of
course, when we had the talks with the Foreign Minister Araghchi, then it was clear that we have other issues besides the nuclear.
[13:30:00]
I mean, there are cyberattacks, hybrid attacks against European countries. European people detained. Also, their help to Russia in this war against
Ukraine. So, there were a lot of issues. Also, their ballistic missile program. So, there were a lot of issues that we raised. And also, Iran said
that they are open to discuss with us.
So, definitely, we need to see this path of diplomacy. And of course, you know, everybody has their own role. The United States as well as the
European Union.
GOLODRYGA: And obviously, that is not the only war in the region right now. The ongoing war in Gaza has raised a lot of questions and perhaps even
an opportunity within Israel, within the opposition, and I know military figures that I've spoken with as well that perhaps this will open the door
to finally seeing a resolution to the war there and into the war and a return of the hostages.
Even the opposition leader, Yair Lapid, posted on X, now in Gaza. This the moment to close that front as well. To bring the hostages home, to end the
war. Israel needs to start rebuilding. How optimistic are you that this ceasefire could lead to an end to the war in Gaza as well?
KALLAS: Well, we have been really pushing both parties to agree on the ceasefire and release all the hostages. And yesterday, we had the
discussion with the foreign ministers of the European Union regarding this issue because we are extremely concerned about the humanitarian situation
in Gaza. And therefore, I mean, the ceasefire is, of course, in everybody's interest and we really hope that this war and the human suffering will
stop.
GOLODRYGA: And we know the E.U. has conducted a review of its association agreement with Israel due to the concerns over the humanitarian crisis in
Gaza. Article 2 of the document outlines that, quote, "Relations between the party shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic
principles." We should note the Israeli foreign minister and their office has rejected this report as, quote, "moral and methodological failure." But
what are the findings of the review that you can share with us at this point?
KALLAS: Well, the question was whether they are in breach of Article 2, like you listed, what is in the association agreement. And this review was
done by experts of the human rights' special representative office. So, it said clearly that these things very factual was the report that they see on
the ground based on the U.N. reports as well show that they are breaching the human rights.
You know, our discussions in the Foreign Affairs Council, together with all the ministers, were really focused on how we can improve the situation on
the ground. Our, you know, goal is not to punish Israel. Our goal is to help the Palestinians, to help their suffering and end the suffering of
Palestinian people on the ground so that the humanitarian aid would get in and people would get help.
GOLODRYGA: Let's talk about the NATO Summit in the Netherlands today. Ukraine high on the agenda. Going back to this ceasefire now between Israel
and Iran. President Zelenskyy said that Russia is trying to save Iran's nuclear program. What is your response to that? Are you seeing any
indication? We know that the Russian president met with the Iranian foreign minister and offered, at least, in words to come to Iran's help and
defense. Are you seeing anything significant though in terms of tangible help?
KALLAS: Well, Putin is not the honest broker of any kind of peace. If you remember then 100 days ago, Ukraine agreed to unconditional ceasefire,
whereas, you know, Russia has just been playing games. So, first they should stop the war that they are waging on Ukraine, and then, you know,
look at all the other wars.
But what is important is that Russia and Iran have always been operating together. I mean, Iran has been helping Russia in its war, and I guess
Iranians are now asking the favor in return. And that's why it is very important that we are strong on Russia, putting the pressure on Russia so
that they would also want peace.
GOLODRYGA: Do you see an opportunity here for the situation in Iran? At its weakest point in decades, Iran has been providing a number of drones
over the last year and a half for Russia, for its war in Ukraine. Do you see an opportunity perhaps for Putin to come to the negotiating table if
for no other reason than concern about that pipeline being shut down?
[13:35:00]
KALLAS: Well, I think, first of all, I see an opportunity for negotiations to address all the worries that we have with Iran, because they are in this
position where they are right now. And really, the concerns that I mentioned before to address all of those. When it comes to Russia, I think
it is also important that Iran sees that Russia hasn't really helped them in this, although they have helped Russia. So, the question is whether it
drives a wedge between them. I'm doubtful that it does.
But of course, we can see that, you know, all these moves taking attention away from the war in Ukraine are actually to the benefit of Russia.
GOLODRYGA: And another focus of this summit, of course, is raising annual military spending defense for each country over the next several years.
That is quite an ambitious goal, just given that it was a 2 percent currently and in the previous several years. What makes you hopeful that
the majority of countries at least will be able to achieve that goal?
KALLAS: Well, this a very ambitious goal, that is very clear. I mean, the NATO countries agreed in 2014 that this -- by 2024, it's going to be 2
percent of GDP for every NATO country. And now, the discussion is about 5 percent. It is a huge increase, but the times are such that we need this.
The problem with the defense spending is that you need it while you actually don't have time to make the investments. So, you need to make the
investments while it is peace, time. And it's very hard to explain to public why we have to spend all that money. But if we spend that money on
defense and really develop the capabilities, then it is also acting as a deterrence that aggressors or would-be aggressors would not look our way.
GOLODRYGA: And we know President Trump has been pushing to meet that 5 percent goal and has taken issue even on his way to the summit, speaking
out against Spain specifically for their pushback on attaining that goal. How important finally is it for President Trump to have a one-on-one
meeting with President Zelenskyy? I know they were scheduled to meet at the G7 in Canada last week, and obviously, events in the Middle East. Change
that. How important is it for the two of them to meet once again here?
KALLAS: I think it's very important that they meet and also discuss all these issues. And President Zelenskyy can also explain what is happening on
the ground and how these all security theaters in the world are actually quite interlinked. Like I mentioned before, Russia, Iran, but also more
covertly, China and the north Korea in this part. So, I think it's for the security of the whole world that we get this right when it comes to all of
these actors.
GOLODRYGA: Kaja Kallas, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate it.
KALLAS: Thank you. All the best.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, while Israel and Iran attempt to observe President Trump's shaky ceasefire deal, on the streets of Tehran, there's an uneasy calm.
Some shops are open, but the fear remains after a night of intense Israeli bombings. Fred Pleitgen filed this report from the Iranian capital.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: After the Israelis made that claim that Iranian missiles were flying towards Israeli
territory. I actually -- I got in touch with a senior Iranian official who flat out denied that the Iranians had fired any missiles toward Israel
after the ceasefire went into effect. In fact, they said that the moment that that time had come for the ceasefire, that no missiles had been fired
from the Iranian side.
The Iranians are also now warning the Israelis against hitting Iranian territory, saying that that would open up Iranian retaliation once again in
that everything within what they call the occupied territories, of course, meaning all of Israel would then become a target for Iran. So, some tough
language coming out of Tehran here as well.
Also, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, which of course is that elite wing of Iran's military, claiming that there were several violations of its
soil, as they put it, by the Israelis, possibly meaning incursion by some sort of aircraft in the hours after the ceasefire went into effect.
What we're seeing right now actually here in Tehran is that things are fairly calm here. I was on the streets a little bit earlier today. There's
a lot of people who are out driving, some shops opening up.
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: As soon as we made the deal, they came out and they dropped a load of bombs, the likes of which I'd never seen before.
PLEITGEN: But what the president said there about the Israelis unloading overnight after the ceasefire deal was announced was definitely something
that we saw and we felt here from our vantage point as well. I was up here on this roof and we, all of a sudden, heard Israeli Air force planes
streak, what seemed to be Israeli Air Force planes streaking past, and then extremely loud explosions rocking our building and then rocking also a lot
of other places in Central Tehran as well.
We saw a lot of outgoing anti-aircraft gunfire coming from the Iranians. The skies here over the city really were illuminated. That went on for the
better part of, I would say, about half an hour, 45 minutes, maybe up to an hour where those loud bangs continue.
The Israelis at some point even issued evacuation orders for certain districts here in Tehran as of 2:30 in the morning when obviously people in
those districts most probably would've been asleep. So, it certainly was a night that saw a lot of kinetic activity. And as of right now, the Iranians
are saying their forces are not firing back. The foreign minister of this country, Abbas Araghchi, he came out and said that Iranian forces had fired
until the moment that the ceasefire went into effect, which the Iranians considered to be 4:00 a.m. in the morning. And that since then, no
projectiles they say have been fired from Iran towards Israeli territory.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Our thanks to Fred Pleitgen for that report from Tehran. We also want to show you images there. You see live images of Air Force one
arriving in Amsterdam, the president coming for the NATO Summit. Obviously, a lot of issues to be discussing, not only the crisis in the Middle East,
the fragile ceasefire there, but obviously, the ongoing war in Ukraine. And we'll be covering the NATO Summit for you as well.
Well, the escalating attacks between Iran and Israel saw the IDF target the entrance of Iran's notorious Evin Prison. It was part of a larger assault
on, quote, "regime targets" and government repression bodies in the heart of Tehran, that is according to the Defense Minister's office.
Now, for many relatives of Evin incarcerated, that was their worst nightmare, fearing for the safety of their loved ones being held there. In
a letter to the head of Iran's judiciary last week, a group of detainees called for a temporary release of prisoners until the fighting stops.
Shiva Mahbobi is the co-founder and spokesperson of the campaign to free political prisoners in Iran, and she joins me now from London. Shiva, thank
you so much for taking the time. We appreciate you joining the show.
In terms of the structural damage to Evin Prison, how much do you know? About how much damage was done in these strikes to the prison itself? Was
it just the gates to the prison or was there more structural damage to the building itself?
SHIVA MAHBOBI, CO-FOUNDER, INTERVIEW WITH CAMPAIGN TO FREE POLITICAL PRISONERS IN IRAN: No, it wasn't just a gate. Actually, the main kitchen,
the clinic, the small clinic that the prison had was destroyed. Lots of glasses were broken. Some of the male prisoners were injured. So, it wasn't
just the entrance. And I have to say that when you say, was it just the entrance? Imagine you're in prison and all of a sudden, the door of the
prison gets attacked, prisoners, they don't know what's happening and it's horrifying for the prisoners inside prison and being attacked.
GOLODRYGA: What have you heard about the reaction to these strikes to the prison itself? And what do you know about any specifics regarding
casualties? You just gave a brief example, but can you go into more detail please?
[13:45:00]
MAHBOBI: Well, the thing is, like, we don't know. As you know, the regime do not -- does not release any sort of real number of how many people were
killed or injured. We know this information through ex-political prisoners or families that been told by their children or other prison that how many
people were injured. That's all we know about it.
But what we know that they are quite -- they were quite distressed. I'm saying they were because, right now, the female political prisoners were
taken to Qarchak Prison, which is the biggest women prison in the Middle East, very well known, infamous for the situation. And the men are taken
forcibly to Fashafouyeh Prison, which is, again, these two prisons been sanctioned by the United State government and they're known for their
horrifying situation.
So, they are actually very stressed, on one hand. They don't know what's going on, and the regime using this opportunity, since last night, in the
middle of the night, they -- the regime took lots of buses in front of Evin Prison and forcibly handcuffed, took them to this prison without informing
them, which is kind of like forced disappear, and also, without telling their family.
The family on the other -- the families on the other side, they're really worried because there is no telephone contact. From what we know, the
women's ward of prison, Evin, the women there, they've been sent to Qarchak and they've been told they're not allowed to have a phone call. And
currently, they all there.
So, the problem is that, as you know, the internet in Iran is majorly cut off. So, therefore, we do not have these reports unless some of them
contact us and let us know. So, we don't know what's happening.
But I just want to say, when we say casualty is not about just the physical damage and injury, it's the horrifying kind of psychological torture on
these prisoners. I know that because in the '80s I was in the prison when I was a teenager in the time of war between Iran and Iraq, and I was injured.
So, it's horrifying to be in prison and be targeted. So, this not acceptable at all. One more thing, the regime uses this opportunity to
exile prisoners to those prison that are holding nonpolitical prisoners who were arrested for murder, drug, et cetera. So, it's quite dangerous. It's
not just to attack, it's what it follows as well.
So, therefore, it's hard to know what's going to happen to these prisoners. They're very sort of worried about are they going to be executed or
anything like that. So, therefore, it's quite different layer of basically damaged psychologically, physically, and what's going to happen to them
late later.
We know that right after the -- after Trump announced a ceasefire a few hours after that, the judiciary announced that they're going to basically
have a different, much faster process to put people on trial and follow -- and execute them for spying for the Israeli government, a bogus charge that
no one have any proof, but this the way they want to get rid of the political prisoners.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And --
MAHBOBI: So, guess what I'm trying to say -- yes. Bianna, this beyond the scope of what we are thinking.
GOLODRYGA: And as somebody who has been and spent time at this prison, when you first heard about these strikes, what was your immediate reaction?
MAHBOBI: It's too close to my heart. I lost my best friend in the same attack. So, I can't even look at that image, as you have seen that, the
explosion at the entrance of the Evin Prison, because you have to imagine. This nothing symbolic about it as the -- Donald Trump is saying. It's -- or
Israeli government is saying, nothing symbolic about it. So, it's heartbreaking.
I've been trying to basically publicize the situation to put pressure on the regime to release political prisoners, even based on basically did --
their own law, they supposed to release all political prisoner, but that's not going to happen. So, for someone who been in prison at the time of the
war, I know what they are going through. The problem is that right now, the regime, from the very first day, 13th of June, when the attack started,
they brought lots of security forces on the street.
We have to remember, people in Iran are in two wars, the attack by Israel and also the attack by the security forces of the regime.
[13:50:00]
GOLODRYGA: A regime that's in turmoil, a regime that's facing paranoia and concern about their own survival. What does that mean for political
prisoners at Evin and those activists in the country that remain?
MAHBOBI: The news that we get is all about being threatened by the regime, their telephone being checked constantly, their car being checked
constantly inside the prison. In some of the prison actually, they don't even give them food in two other cities, even in Islamabad (ph) Prison,
another one that when the prisoners ask for shelter, they basically shoot them and at least 15 prisoners were killed, and these are what you don't
see on the news unfortunately.
When I was in prison, I was not given shelter. I was -- the door of the solitary confinement was shut when the war was going on and I got injured.
So, at the moment, the recent regime threatened people. The recent regime that bring all the security forces on the street is not because they are
powerful, because they are petrified of people overthrowing them.
Three years ago, in Women, Life, Freedom, we have seen the power of people. And one more thing I wanted to say, people in Iran are against war. This
not our war. This the war between two war mongers. And at the same time, we don't want anyone to rescue us. I think three years ago, people in Iran
proved that they are capable of overthrowing the Islamic regime.
But the problem is all the government around the world, including U.S. and Israeli government, they are actually not doing what they supposed to do,
meaning, basically kicking out all their diplomas, putting IRGC, Islamic Revolutionary Guard, on the list of terrorist organization.
It's not just about nuclear program. People never wanted a nuclear bomb. But the problem is right now, people are stuck in a situation that they get
attacked, but at the same time, they get attacked in prison and execution is going to come very soon.
I want to say that -- I'm saying that because in the time of the war between Iran and Iraq, when it's finished, the Islamic regime created a
massacre, killed thousands of political prisoner in the summer of 1988. We are very fearful that similar thing might happen when all the media is
concentrating only on the attack and the voice of political prisoners and their family are not heard. The activists inside Iran are constantly being
threatened.
GOLODRYGA: What are your biggest concerns going forward now, given the fragility of the ceasefire, given the humiliation that the Iranian regime
has just endured, and given the fact that there are these vulnerable, very brave, but suppressed voices both at the prison and still within the
country itself at large?
MAHBOBI: Well, my biggest fear is that the regime stays in power. And then, start actually massacring, not just political prisoner, arresting
more people as they have done in the last 10 days. So, the problem is, right now, I think we have to understand people --Israeli governments
saying why people not coming on the street and overthrow the regime? It doesn't work like that.
And also, they said that we attacked the prison walls so people can run away. This not a Hollywood movie. This reality. And right now, if people
come on the street, they're going to be shot by the IRGC. My biggest fear is not basically only the war. Of course, the war always bring misery. Is
the Islamic regime being emboldened and start attacking people further and further?
I mean, listen, what to what they say because they're so petrified, they say that we are going to put lots of people on trial and execute them
because they collaborated with the Israeli regime. So, this my biggest fear. It's not the atomic bomb.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Which is why so many people are warning that outsiders especially talking about regime change right now is something that is not
only quite alarming, but dangerous for those inside the country.
MAHBOBI: Listen, Bianna, regime -- people want to overthrow the Islamic regime, but we've been massacred in the last 46 years. I was in prison when
I was 12 years old, then I was in prison when I was 16 years old. Many people like myself, it's not about that. My question is, if the
international body, if the government wants to help Iran, wants to get rid of the regime, the only way is to support people in Iran.
[13:55:00]
Meaning, cut all your political ties with the regime, kick all the -- expel all the diplomas shut down. The embassies. Freeze their assets. We have
been telling them for years and years, regime change doesn't come from Israeli government and the U.S., it comes from people.
GOLODRYGA: Such important points, it always comes from the people. Thank you, Shiva Mahbobi, for speaking to us. Really appreciate it.
And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
