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Amanpour
Interview with The New York Times Reporter Hamed Aleaziz; Interview with "Apocalypse in the Tropics" Director Petra Costa; Interview with Vogue Editor-in-Chief Anna Wintour. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 03, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and a very warm welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): I never thought that I'd be on the House floor saying that this is a crime scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: The ugly debate continues around Trump's budget bill. With one final vote to go, I ask reporter Hamed Aleaziz about the major consequences
for U.S. immigration.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the last 40 years, evangelicals have grown from five to more than 30 percent of Brazil's population.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: -- a sudden religious shift in Brazil. What does it mean for democracy? I speak with Oscar nominated director Petra Costa about her new
documentary "Apocalypse in the Tropics."
Also, ahead, North Korea joins Russia on the battlefield. A special report as they agree to triple their troops.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNA WINTOUR, EDITOR, "VOGUE MAGAZINE": I don't think you can try and please everybody all the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: -- lessons from the queen of fashion, as Anna Wintour announces the end of her reign at Vogue. A look back at Christiane's conversation
with the editor in chief.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Paula Newton in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
President Trump's massive tax and spending cuts bill faces one final vote in the House of Representatives. When that vote will take place, it's
unclear at this hour, but as those hours tick by, it looks more likely it will, in fact, become law, from tax cuts tilted towards the wealthy to an
estimated deficit of $3.4 trillion over the next decade.
Poll after poll, in fact, has found it's unpopular with the American people. Queue Vice President J. D. Vance who's responding by focusing
attention on the administration's signature issue, immigration, claiming everything else is, quote, "immaterial" in comparison.
Now, the bill funnels $170 billion into immigration and border related operations, which would make ICE the highest funded enforcement agency in
the country. We will get more on the consequences for immigration and beyond in a moment.
But first, we want to go to senior CNN Reporter Annie Grayer, who is on Capitol Hill. The stamina you've had to have really compares to Hakeem
Jeffries at this hour. Hakeem Jeffries' marathon speech. How is this playing and how does it play into the Democrat strategy here?
ANNIE GRAYER, CNN SENIOR REPORER: So, we are seeing Hakeem Jeffries, the top Democrat in the House, lay out the messaging for Democrats that they
are going to pick up and carry on through the midterms. This really is the Democrats' first attempt to try and shape their messaging around this as we
start to look at the 2026 midterms and Democrats trying to reclaim the House.
Jefferies has laid out what the impacts of this bill will be on Medicaid recipients. He has walked through the amendments that Democrats have tried
to offer that have gotten -- taken down the process, and he is trying to break the record for the longest floor speech ever, as the Democrats top
messenger in the House right now.
But this is going to be the political fight for the 2026 midterms. It's going to come down to how Democrats try and shape their arguments and
really hit home for people the impacts that this bill will have on them. And then how Republicans try and defend it. As you mentioned, the border
being a number one issue for Republicans that they're going to continue to harp on.
So, we are waiting for Leader Jeffries to wrap up his speech, and after that is when we expect there to be a final vote, which has been a
rollercoaster for Republicans up until about 3:00 this morning, Republicans did not have the votes, but House Speaker Mike Johnson, President Donald
Trump, worked the phones directly, directly messaged with these lawmakers to get them onboard. It has not by any means been an easy process, but we
have seen that pressure campaign work, and Republicans expect to have the votes when Jefferies finally does wrap up his speech.
NEWTON: Yes. Annie, we can trot out every cliche here, right, a rollercoaster cliffhanger. And yet, what happened here to get this across
the finish line? Like what deals did they actually make in those back room talks?
GRAYER: Well, that's what we still need to figure out, but there have been two issues kind of this entire time, both in the Senate process and in the
House.
[13:05:00]
You have a group of more moderate Republicans who have been concerned about how the Medicaid cuts are going to impact their constituents. And then you
have a group of more conservatives who think that the spend -- this bill does not cut enough spending. And those two competing ideologies have been
what's been made this process so difficult because leaders of both the House and Senate and the White House have had to balance those concerns.
Now, we are not expecting any changes to the Senate bill, what the House is expected to vote on in a matter of hours here. So, it's a question of in
these negotiations, what got these House lawmakers who, as of yesterday, were saying they were adamant nos to now falling in line. That is
definitely going to be where we have to see what comes next.
But these negotiations are really just to socialize these ideas with members more so than add anything to the bill.
NEWTON: Annie Grayer continues to keep an eye on this for us at Capitol Hill as the Republicans do look set to pass it. They just don't know when.
Annie Grayer for us, thanks so much.
Now, as we were discussing, Trump's plan to transform immigration comes after months of escalating raids that have already led to growing alarm,
nationwide protests, and the deployment of troops in the streets. So, what does lie ahead here? We want to bring in Hamed Aleaziz. He's been on the
very front line of Trump's immigration crackdown as a reporter for The New York Times and has embedded with ICE on one of their operations, and he
joins me now from Washington. Grateful for you to join us on a busy day there in Washington and beyond.
Let's talk about that massive budget bill. I mean, you're talking about pouring more than a hundred billion dollars into ICE. We were talking, just
to be clear, that's anywhere from eight to 10 times what it is right now. What will the new funding play for? Well, it's detention centers, training
new ICE agents and hiring them, but obviously, more deportation operations as well. And of course, those expanded detention centers.
You've seen what this looks like already from the inside. What do you believe a supercharged immigration enforcement program will look like?
HAMED ALEAZIZ, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, I think, you know, one of the main -- there are two main challenges that ICE faces currently to go
ahead and, you know, follow through on President Trump's promises of mass deportations. One of them is detention. They don't have enough detention
space to hold people and then ultimately, deport them.
Generally speaking, ICE holds people, detains them before deporting them. So, right now, ICE is holding around 60,000 people. This bill could
potentially allow them to hold around a hundred thousand people. That would make a major difference for their numbers. And then, on the other hand, if
they're able to hire more officers, that solves another problem, which is the lack of resources, the lack of bodies to go out into communities and
find undocumented immigrants, arrest them and send them to detention to ultimately be deported.
So, I think on both of these ends, when it comes to detention and hiring more officers, this bill could ultimately help ICE immensely.
NEWTON: And that is, in fact, what the president was looking for, and that includes his cabinet. I want you to listen now to Homeland Security
Secretary Kristi Noem as to her reason, just giving one example as to why she believes this kind of ICE and border program is needed. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRISTI NOEM, U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: The other day I was talking to some marshals that have been partnering with ICE, they said that they
had detained a cannibal. And put him on a plane to take him home. And while they had him in his seat, he started to eat himself and they had to get him
off and get him medical attention. These are the kind of deranged individuals that are on our streets in America that we're trying to target
and get out of our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: So, CNN has no way to independently confirm that, but, you know, ICE has said, OK, we are specifically targeting migrants with violent
records. Listen, you have spoken directly to ICE agents. They are spreading a wider net here than Noem would have you believe.
ALEAZIZ: Yes. Look, I mean, I think that is the message this administration is sending is that they're going after the worst of the
worst, that they are, you know, making American streets safer by taking criminals off of the streets. But ultimately, right now, what ICE is doing
is, yes, while they'll have targets that have potential criminal records, if anybody is around this target who is also undocumented and may not have
a criminal record, they are also free game for ICE to arrest and detain as well.
Because to ICE, there isn't necessarily a delineation between somebody who has a criminal record and somebody who is here in the country illegally
because the thought is, you know, you, you know, should not be in this country illegally and you're violating the law by being in the country
without authorization. So, ultimately for ICE, those people as well are priorities.
[13:10:00]
NEWTON: You've seen that firsthand. You've spoken to ICE agents who said that an undocumented person, you know, by their thought process, is a
criminal. What have you seen to be the effects of that when you have been on these raids with ICE?
ALEAZIZ: Yes. Ultimately, what it means is that, you know, if individuals are in the area of an ICE operation and they don't have a criminal record
but they are in this country and they're undocumented, they will be arrested, they will likely be detained, and it is a game changer compared
to during the Biden administration when, generally, that wasn't a focus of ICE during that time. And now, you're seeing much more of an emphasis.
And, you know, this comes as there's this pressure on ICE to arrest more people, to deport more people. This pressure coming from, you know, the
White House especially. So, you can see where ICE will end up, you know, rounding up more people than in years past.
NEWTON: You know, what you described must be terrifying for those caught up in it. But also, a bit random, because when you include people who have
done nothing except, frankly, be undocumented and even go to court, understanding that they're undocumented and understanding that there are
certain obligations that come with that, it sounds as if there is a presumption of guilt with everyone rather than innocence.
I'm curious about how that approach is playing out when you do look at due process, whether it's in the courts or otherwise.
ALEAZIZ: Well, you know, in the instance and the eyes of ICE they believe that people who are undocumented, you know, should be removed from this
country. That they will, you know, work really swiftly to do that. But we've already seen issues where, you know, American citizens have been
arrested. You know, in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, somebody who had a court order actually saying that they could -- he could not be deported to
El Salvador, but was deported to El Salvador regardless.
These types of cases, these types of issues keep popping up. And certainly, the courts have, you know, struck down some of these decisions by ICE. And,
you know, that's something that I'm watching moving forward as this enforcement continues and grows and supercharges.
NEWTON: What's been sobering is that any of that due process seems to be so -- too late for so many that have already been deported. I want to talk
about something that CNN has been speaking to Cardinal Robert McElroy, he's the Archbishop of Washington. He spoke with our Vatican correspondent,
Christopher Lamb. And it is searing really the impact this immigration crackdown has had on him personally, and he speaks to the fear and anxiety
through communities. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL ROBERT MCELROY, ARCHBISHOP OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: It is right to be able to control our borders. However, what's going on now is something far
beyond that. It is a mass indiscriminate deportation of men and women and children of families, which literally rips families apart and is intended
to do so. And the mechanism by which it's doing it is the creation of fear, deep, profound fear within the community of about 10 million. This is
simply not only incompatible with Catholic teaching, it's inhumane and it is morally repugnant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: I mean, what are the odds that a comment like that will resonate in the White House, with ICE or beyond, in communities that we've seen,
even in Republican districts, that people are fighting against this kind of ICE enforcement?
ALEAZIZ: You know, it's always hard to get in the mind of President Trump or in the White House. But I will say this, I don't see that as potentially
moving this administration's policies. The Department of Homeland Security, the leadership there and elsewhere throughout the administration, they feel
like they have a mandate from the American people to carry through on these promises of mass deportation and increased ICE enforcement.
You know, this is something that they point to that President Trump talked about on the campaign trail relentlessly last year, and the American people
voted for him. So, I think that is something they continue to turn to whenever these pleas about, you know, the impacts of immigration
enforcement in communities, or the fear that's percolating, you know, that's the argument that the administration often turns to.
[13:15:00]
NEWTON: But you've been inside so many of these communities where there is so much fear and quite frankly, despair, people just not carrying on with
their everyday lives. That even includes people who are documented. So, when they see things like, you know, in Florida, this temporary migrant
detention center popping up in the Everglades' so-called Alligator Alcatraz, will this have an effect on Americans, even those who obviously
do not support open borders?
ALEAZIZ: Yes, it'll be really interesting. You know, it is one thing to -- for Americans to vote for a crackdown in immigration, but it'll be really
interesting to see how voter perceptions change when that deportation effort is actually carried through and these stories of families, of people
who have been in the country for a long time, who are, you know, deep community ties, you know, when those images come through, how will the
American populace react to that? You know, that'll be something that we'll have to see moving forward.
But I think the message ultimately with Alligator Alcatraz and Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere that this administration is trying to send is not
necessarily to the American public, but to individuals in the country who are undocumented as a is a symbol as somewhere to say, you know, you can
leave this country voluntarily, or you could potentially end up in a detention facility like Alligator Alcatraz.
NEWTON: And I don't have a lot of time left, but to your point, when we were talking about there, a Marist PBS Poll finds that a majority of
Americans, in fact -- and this is significant because it says six in 10 Americans now believe enforcement has gone too far. And yet, now, we have
billions more being poured into ICE, being poured into these kinds of raids.
Can you predict what the outcome will be both in these communities, but also economically, right? There are a lot of people out there that were
doing honest work for a lot of businesses, paying taxes. What will happen? What will be the fallout from all of that?
ALEAZIZ: Well, I think what this bill could do is really change the way ICE operates in the sense that they can have detention space that they've
never had before in the history of the agency. They could be potentially deporting people at historic numbers. And I think those types of sweeping
actions ultimately take effect on communities.
I mean, we've seen in Los Angeles people the ridership on buses go down. We've seen taco stands that were usually, you know, populated with people,
you know, be empty. Just major impact to those types of communities. And ultimately, you know, if we see this types -- of type of enforcement expand
and grow, you know, we can expect a lot more of that in other cities as well.
NEWTON: Hamed, I do want to ask you one more thing before we go. I watched a lot of the videos that you posted online. Of course, I have been reading
a lot of your reporting. What kind of personal effect has this had on you?
ALEAZIZ: You know, for me, I just think that, you know, it is, you know, our duty as reporters to document this time and try to tell stories that we
think are -- you know, that the public needs to know about. And ultimately, I just find this time really important for me to be focusing on my coverage
and trying to do as much as possible to keep the public informed. So, it's a lot of work. But ultimately, you know, ready for the moment.
NEWTON: Hamed Aleaziz, thank you for joining us. Appreciate it.
ALEAZIZ: Thank you.
NEWTON: OK. Now, later in the program, an exclusive report on North Korean troops on Russia's frontlines, and how an evangelical surge threatened
Brazil's democracy. I speak to Director Petra Costa about her documentary.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:00]
NEWTON: So, President Trump spoke with Vladimir Putin just a little while ago, a state-run Russian news agency reports that they discussed Ukraine
and Iran among other issues in a nearly hour-long conversation that was apparently, quote, "businesslike." Now, it comes as the U.S. puts a pause
on some weapons shipments to Ukraine, which they reportedly did not discuss.
Kyiv suffered some of its most brutal aerial attacks by Russia in June with more than 330 missiles shot into Ukrainian territory. Many of them aimed at
civilians with fears of an emboldened Moscow now brewing. Meantime, the Kremlin summer offensive appears to have slowed, but that might be about to
change. According to Ukrainian intelligence, North Korea is tripling the number of troops they're sending to help Russia on the frontlines,
bolstering their war effort on the ground. Nick Paton Walsh brings us this exclusive report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): They brought near suicidal, ruthless tactics. The rumblings of a war going
global. 11,000 North Korean troops helped Russia expel Kyiv soldiers from its border of Kursk. But that it seems is just the start.
CNN has learned up to 30,000 more maybe headed to the frontlines, according to Ukrainian intelligence, for use in a summer offensive. With Moscow
hungry for manpower and Pyongyang keen to school its troops in a brutal trench and drone warfare.
They were first seen here in October, but recently, the roots used then could be active again. A troop carrying Reputa (ph) ship was seen here on
May the 18th. The same type of vessel at the same Russian port used in transports last year, experts said.
Ukraine also assesses Russia will refit transport planes like the ones seen on the tarmac here again in June at North Korea's Sudan airport to move so
many North Koreans. Likely air or rail will take them across Siberia to the frontline, 10 kilometers east of Kursk. This camp has enlarged in recent
months, further evidence of North Korean buildup.
CNN has geolocated to hear this six-minute video report from apart Korean, Russian correspondent. The report surfaced 48 hours after the Kremlin's
first admission of the North Korean deployment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Such a good bunker. Warm.
WALSH (voice-over): They're not only training, but appear to have new, long-term bunker accommodation and equipment. The tastes of home red,
Korean pepper, and homemade propaganda. It says, revenge for our fallen comrades. This Russian instructor says his new trainees are aged 23 to 27.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The guys arrive in good physical condition. Their fighters are as good as ours. They enemy runs away first.
And the enemy does run, because it's afraid of a gun fight.
WALSH (voice-over): And there's a translation sheet to get over the language barrier, which meant the first units operated separately from the
Russians.
State media has shown videos of both countries now training together. Here, in the same training ground, a Russian shows how to use a shotgun to take
down a drone. Others practicing clearing buildings together.
More signs are open. Putin's top presidential adviser, Sergei Shoigu, visiting Kim Jong Un here for the second time in a fortnight, announcing a
thousand mine clearers, and 5,000 military construction workers to rebuild Kursk region. Perhaps a sign Moscow is indeed short of the manpower it has
sent mercilessly into the fight, but also that it is not short on allies who share their ruthless commitment.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: Next we go to Brazil where nearly three years after Jair Bolsonaro's defeat, the country is still reckoning with the forces he
unleashed. In January, 2023, thousands of his supporters stormed government buildings and the Capital Brasilia, in a failed attempt to overturn the
election result.
[13:25:00]
Now, Bolsonaro is on trial for an alleged coup plot. Now, in her new documentary, "Apocalypse in the Tropics," filmmaker Petra Costa reveals how
evangelical power, apocalyptic rhetoric and Bolsonaro's far-right populism combined to threaten Brazil's secular democracy. Here's a clip from her
documentary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This city was designed as a vision of Brazil's future, and the cement that held it together was a faith not in God, but
instead, in the equally abstract ideas of progress and democracy.
CROWD (through translator): God, homeland, family and freedom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I want to be a pastor of a generation that will change history.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the last 40 years, evangelicals have grown from five to more than 30 percent of Brazil's population, a rapid religious
shift molded into an unprecedented political force.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: And Petra Costa joins us now from Sao Paolo. Good for you to be with us. Hopefully, you can hear me. We want to really have a good look at
this.
PETRA COSTA, DIRECTOR, "APOCALYPSE IN THE TROPICS": Yes, I can hear you good.
NEWTON: And thank you for being with us. You know, your documentary, you revisit the crisis of the Brazilian democracy, you know, showcasing the
political sway that the evangelical church has had. You know, the way you narrate this is incredible, even means covered the story. I still -- it is
kind of unbelievable the way all of this transpired.
How did evangelicals come to co-op so much political power? And how do you believe, because you do believe this, that they're still posing a threat to
Brazilian democracy?
COSTA: Yes, the film is not about evangelicals in general, but very much about how evangelical leaders have co-opted political power. And actually,
very inspired by examples in the United States, from Billy Graham to Jerry Falwell. Brazil has created its own moral majority since 2011, 2013, and
waging continuous cultural warfares that have shaped our elections.
Bolsonaro was the first president to be elected in Brazil, thanks to the evangelical vote. And what I discovered in making this film is that there's
very much a dominion theology that is present amongst evangelical leaders in Brazil that are more and more aligned with Bolsonaro and who have a
desire to take over the three branches of power, and that's what we documented in our film. But as you said, the war is ongoing.
NEWTON: You know, you had incredible access to a certain televangelist, a pastor, it's Silas Malafaia. Or you can't? Oh, can you hear me, Petra?
Petro, can you hear me now? OK. We are going to take a quick break and hopefully reestablish contact. Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:30:00]
NEWTON: And apologies for our technical difficulties, but Petra Costa is back with us now. Perhaps one of -- Malafaia, as I was just speaking about
him, he is one of the most hated enemies, his most hated enemies is Lula Inacio da Silva, of course, the leader in Brazil. He was released from
prison after being acquitted of corruption charges in 2021.
Now, Lula's returned to politics, also dramatic, was in fact seismic and proved to be a decisive challenge to Bolsonaro's reelection bid. We want to
listen now from your documentary and we see Malafaia's reaction to Lula's release. Listen.
SILAS MALAFAIA, TELEVANGELIST (through translator): How does that happen? How's it even possible for someone to run the PT while in prison? Are you
really going to tell me that a guy like this, when he was president and had the power in his hands, had nothing to do with this corruption? That's a
joke. I'm going to grab some coffee. That's a joke. This is outrageous. That's -- this is (INAUDIBLE) from the minister.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you think is going to happen in 2022?
MALAFAIA (through translator): He's going to lose the election. You know why? He's screwed in the evangelical world. Completely screwed. You can
quote me on that. And there's over (INAUDIBLE) -- we're over 30 percent of the population. It's not going to work for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Petra, he was wrong of course. Bolsonaro lost the election. Lula won. Why do you think that is despite what is still a very strong political
party and political movement that is evangelical.
COSTA: I can't listen.
NEWTON: Apologies, everyone. I think Petra still cannot hear me. We will take a quick break and be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEWTON: And we do apologize for our technical difficulties, but we do want to turn now to China, which is showcasing its powerful naval fleet. It's
massive Shandong aircraft carrier sailed into Hong Kong waters earlier today for a five-day visit. It's China's first domestically built aircraft
carrier. CNN's Ivan Watson has more now from Hong Kong.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is a pretty rare site, a Chinese aircraft carrier, the Shandong, now making a five-day visit
to the port city of Hong Kong. This is one of the largest weapons in China's military arsenal. It is the length of more than three football
fields, and it can carry more than 40 aircraft. Many of them are J-15 fighter jets. And when it's conducting flight operations, they would launch
off of that ski jump sloping bow over there.
Now, this is a very potent symbol of China's relatively new naval power. I'm going to give you a little context here. Around seven years ago, I was
in a small boat in this same harbor looking at a very different aircraft carrier, it was the USS Ronald Reagan making its own visit to Hong Kong. In
the years since then, relations between Beijing and Washington have sharply deteriorated, and we haven't seen a U.S. Navy ship here in many years.
[13:35:00]
In the meantime, around 2020, the Chinese Navy is believed to have grown larger by number of ships than the U.S. Navy. Today, China boasts the
world's largest navy. This is one of two fully operational Chinese aircraft carriers built entirely, this one, in China. There is a third aircraft
carrier currently undergoing sea trials and reportedly a fourth larger and more advanced aircraft carrier is currently under construction in China.
This carrier, the Shandong, was recently operating off of the eastern coast of Taiwan. That is that self-governing island that Beijing claims for
itself and has not ruled out the possibility of using force to take it under control one day. So, there's a lot of tension and a lot of Chinese
military and naval muscle flexing that's ongoing around Taiwan.
The Shandong recently was conducting exercises as a strike force, as well as the other Chinese aircraft carrier out in the open Pacific Ocean, and
that is considered to be a milestone, some naval experts say, for the ongoing development of the Chinese Navy.
Beijing clearly has ambitions to project its naval power further into the high seas, bringing this carrier here is aimed at whipping up more
patriotism among the residents of Hong Kong, and also demonstrating to the world China's growing naval power.
Ivan Watson, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: Now, have you ever dreamed about having the top job in fashion? Get this, Vogue is hiring after nearly four decades as editor in chief of
the American Magazine, Anna Wintour, is stepping back. And now, in a surprisingly low-key approach, publisher Conde Nast put the job posting on
LinkedIn. I'm not sure if that's tongue in cheek or not. But the queen of fashion, to be sure isn't gone for good.
Now, Wintour will be staying on as the publisher's global chief of content -- global chief content officer and editorial director of Vogue.
So, as the style bible enters this new era, we revisit Christiane's rare conversation with Wintour back in 2019.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Anna Wintour, welcome to program.
ANNA WINTOUR, VOGUE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: Look, can I just address the elephant in the room? You are wearing your dark glasses. I'm - I'm not sure that I expect you to wear
them during the interview, but I know that you do --
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- wear them inside. I just want to know --
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- because everybody wants to know.
WINTOUR: Well, today I'll be brutally frank because I've been unbelievably ill all week and -- plus, I just had eye surgery, so those are the real
reasons I'm wearing today; otherwise, I would brave you without them.
AMANPOUR: But they are an inscrutable protect -- because you wear them in the front row fashion as well.
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You're right there sitting next to the queen.
WINTOUR: They're incredible useful because you avoid people knowing what you're thinking about. They avoid -- they help me when I'm feeling a bit
tired or sleepy. And I don't know, maybe they've just become a crutch and part of who I am, but today I really did need them.
AMANPOUR: There is a criticism right now today in our times of environmental existential crisis.
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- that fashion is the second most polluting industry in the world --
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- and that people are buying massively more than they did 15 years ago, but using the massively less --
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- sort of disposable fashion. I know that's not what you do, but nonetheless --
WINTOUR: Right.
AMANPOUR: -- Stella McCartney and others are very, very conscious about trying to --
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- reduce the amount of leather, plastic --
WINTOUR: Right. Right.
AMANPOUR: -- fur, all of that.
WINTOUR: Well, I think it's something that everybody in the industry, certainly other people that I'm talking to, are very aware of, very
conscious of. I had a CEO -- a huge European Company in my office just yesterday to discuss all that. Everybody is making a five-year plan.
Everybody is concerned about the climate crisis and what should be done to help. And, obviously, we're very aware as other industries are that we have
been at fault. And what can we do in the relatively short amount of time we have to course correct.
AMANPOUR: So, it's an urgency for you?
WINTOUR: It's an urgency for everybody within the industry. I feel very confident in saying that. And there are organizations like fair fashion and
many -- the U.N. that are working with everybody across the globe to see what we can all do to correct it.
AMANPOUR: This also leads into politics because it's the political leaders who are going to lead us out of these crises. You are political. I mean,
you are a major fund-raiser for Barack Obama. Your magazine, the most important fashion bible in the world, does profile some very, very
important women who are in politics. Tell me about that.
I mean you're overtly political in your profiles and in what you stand for. What is it that you're trying to say by profiling Michelle Obama or Kamala
Harris or even Stormy Daniels to do that?
[13:40:00]
WINTOUR: Well, these -- if you're talking about the First Lady or Senator Harris, obviously, these are women that we feel are icons and inspiring to
women from a global perspective. I also feel even more strongly now that this is not a time to try and -- I think one has to be fair. One has to
look at all sides. But I don't think it's a moment not to take a stand.
I think you can't be everything to everybody. And I think it is a time when -- a time that we live in a world as you would well know of fake news and
stretching to be kind. Let's say -- let me say stretching of the truth. I believe, as I think those of us who work at Conde Nast believe, that you
have to stand up for what you believe in. And you have to take a point-of- view. And our readers, our audiences follow and respect us. And if they disagree, we would love to hear. But I don't think you can try and please
everybody all the time.
AMANPOUR: I believe Secretary Clinton, when she was first lady was the first, first lady to be on the cover of Vogue?
WINTOUR: She was.
AMANPOUR: Not even Jacqui Kennedy was on the cover of Vogue.
WINTOUR: She was. No. She was photographed many times within the magazine with her husband and her children and I think with her sister, iconic
pictures, but I think it was a time when I felt that the first lady at that time had behaved in a very brave way.
AMANPOUR: Was this in surviving the slings and arrows of her husband's accusations and the impeachment --
WINTOUR: Slings and arrows of misfortune, yes. So, I -- we felt it was the time to -- you know, to support her and to stand up for women and it was --
we were very honored that she agreed to be our cover at that time. And we were also very honored obviously. I think Mrs. Obama was on the cover three
times while she was in the White House.
AMANPOUR: What does she mean to you? I mean she's not just an amazing role model.
WINTOUR: I think Mrs. Obama redefined the role of the first lady. I mean she was so open to everybody. She made the White House a place for
everyone. I think she had incredible initiatives whether it was with the veterans or with obesity or fitness or many of the other issues that she
supported, obviously, a lot of the work that she did with the arts.
I mean, and she was just so I think inspiring to so many women and obviously on a very selfish note speaking as the editor-in-chief of Vogue,
she did wonders for fashion. She loved fashion. And --
AMANPOUR: And high and low, right?
WINTOUR: -- she mixed high and low. She supported designers that one has never heard of. And, you know, we have always had the tradition at Vogue to
photograph first ladies when they first came in to office and some extraordinary wonderful women.
And it was an honor to photograph them, but they were always super cautious about what they wanted to wear and the image that they wanted to present,
nearly always a jacket, you know, maybe some pearls if you are Mrs. Bush. But, with Mrs. Obama, you know, she was fearless. And I -- it was such a
joy for all of us --
AMANPOUR: I want to talk a little bit about you. Anna Wintour, you are a power. Why do you think it is that even some of your friends profess to be
intimidated by you? There's a famous quote from Barbara Amiel, a society lady and journalist who said that, she's my friend and yet I'm in a cold
sweat when I know I have to meet her. Others have called you, Anna Nuclear Wintour. What do you think that's all about?
WINTOUR: No. No. Well, I think you're quoting from things that were said maybe several decades ago. So, I think --
AMANPOUR: Have you softened?
WINTOUR: Maybe, I'll -- I think I'm very direct and very clear about my point-of-view and what I think. And I also want to reiterate that the other
wonderful opportunity that I have at Conde Nast is to be able to support talent. And to be able to help young designers or young editors, young
writers, young photographers embark on their path in life because I think it's a very confusing world. And there are so many choice today in a way
that was unthinkable when I first started. So, anything that we can do to help young people navigate that, I'm honored to do.
AMANPOUR: I just want to ask about your own path, did you face any impediments, barriers, sexual innuendos or assaults? I mean did you face
that kind of struggle when you are getting to the top?
WINTOUR: I don't feel personally that it's been a disadvantage that I'm a woman. I feel that sometimes there has been a certain level of personal
criticism directed at me that possibly might not have been at a man in a similar position. But, I --
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, like you're too tough, you're too strong, what kind of criticism?
WINTOUR: Probably that, yes, most of all. But -- and about one's appearance or whatever.
AMANPOUR: The hairstyle?
WINTOUR: The hairstyle being too thin.
AMANPOUR: Too thin?
WINTOUR: Too thin, I get that a lot.
AMANPOUR: Really?
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I always -- I always get people asking me, you've had it for so long and it's exactly the same --
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- as it's been for many, many years.
WINTOUR: Right. Right.
AMANPOUR: Why is that?
WINTOUR: My haircut?
AMANPOUR: And its signature.
WINTOUR: Well, it's one more decision I don't have to make every day. And, no -- but I actually don't think that I've had particularly a rough time
from being a woman. Obviously, I think partly because of the industry that I work in. And I also -- I'm very focused. So, maybe because of my clarity
and my focus, I haven't let it in.
AMANPOUR: That's an interesting way to put it, I haven't let it in. I wonder if that's got anything to do with your pedigree, so to speak, your
father --
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- was, I believe, the editor of the Evening Standard.
WINTOUR: That's right, yes.
AMANPOUR: -- which is a major British newspaper. One of your brothers is a diplomatic editor at the Guardian.
WINTOUR: Correct.
AMANPOUR: Another sibling works in NGOs, I think in housing or planning?
WINTOUR: Yes. Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes?
WINTOUR: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Your father was nicknamed, "Chilly Charlie".
WINTOUR: Correct.
AMANPOUR: For a certain inscrutability.
WINTOUR: Yes. Yes.
AMANPOUR: What did you learn from him?
WINTOUR: The decisiveness, and passion. I, mean he loved what he did and it was so inspiring growing up in a house full of journalists and editors,
and always being aware of what was happening in the world, and it made me love the news and it made me love culture. And he was very passionate about
theater he's very passionate about cinemas so he brought what he did home. And those kind of people, politicians, writers, editors, they were at the
house at all times. So, how lucky was I.
AMANPOUR: Very lucky and look where you are. And how did you pick the fashion and of journalism? What was it that sparked that?
WINTOUR: I think I was growing up in England on a very interesting time. It was a major cultural change going on where all the class barriers were
really being broken down, and hairdressers, and musicians were becoming celebrities in the way that they couldn't have done been before the war in
the '50s. It was just so thrilling to be in London at that particular time.
And obviously, a lot of that was channeled through the lens of fashion. So, I think any young girl growing up in that culture could not be interested
in it. So, I went to work at a magazine when I was quite young and at that time you know, you didn't really need too much experience. They were just
happy to have you there. So, I was very fortunate.
AMANPOUR: Vogue is sort of the cultural bible the touchstone and yet online is sort of really obviously way overtaking print and Instagram,
influencers maybe having a bigger influence than Vogue. I'd like to know your thoughts on that and where do you ever think that the glossy magazine
is a species that's going extinct, yours particularly?
WINTOUR: I think we're so fortunate today to have so many different channels in which to speak to our audiences if you go back to when I was a
young girl growing up in Britain and I went for my first job. And it was considered a great thing if we reach an audience of 90,000 people with a
monthly magazine.
Now, we have, I believe its 22 million followers on Instagram alone at Vogue U.S. So, we are talking to men, women, all over the world in a way
that we couldn't possibly have imagined even 10 years ago, 15 years ago.
So, now I think they're all important. They all serve a different purpose, they all are valid, and our challenges defined the best voice for each
particular channel that we're using. And obviously now, we're doing so much more with video, and film, and even an event like the Met is another way
for us to talk to our audience about the excitement and culture of fashion.
AMANPOUR: Do you think the magazine will last, will stay?
WINTOUR: I do, I do, I feel that there is an engagement with a glossy rich magazine like Vogue that experience -- it isn't the same when you look at
something online. I mean it peaks in a day, it trends in a day, and it's great the news gets out there and we're so excited to see it. But there's
something about sitting with the magazine and luxuriating in it that is very special.
[13:50:00]
AMANPOUR: Anna Wintour, thank you very much indeed.
WINTOUR: Thank you for having me.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
NEWTON: Now, turning to Brazil in a new Netflix documentary, "Apocalypse in the Tropics." It tells an extraordinary story exploring how evangelical
power, apocalyptic rhetoric, and Bolsonaro's far-right populism combined to threaten Brazil's secular democracy. And the film's director Petra Costa,
joins us now from Sao Paulo.
Again, I thank you for being with us. You know, in this documentary, you revisit the crisis of Brazilian democracy. It has been fascinating to see
the sway of the evangelical church. You narrate how it helped Bolsonaro win in 2018, and you highlight the role of evangelical pastors. I will say
since then, Lula da Silva has come to power. How do you measure now the political power of those evangelicals and specifically the pastors?
COSTA: Well, it's still very strong. They hold 20 percent of the Brazilian Congress. And right now, the Congress is the most conservative Congress in
Brazilian history, very much opposing Lula's government in several moments. Lula is now trying to tax the rich. The rich in Brazil are the least taxed
in the world, one of the least taxed in the world. And he's confronting a very conservative Congress that is influenced by this religious
fundamentalism.
Malafaia, the pastor that I accompanied for four years in the making of this documentary is very close to Bolsonaro. And last weekend held a huge
rally with Bolsonaro asking for his forgiveness, as Bolsonaro is facing trials at this moment, for the coup attempt.
NEWTON: You argue then that they have staying power, given the political situation in Brazil right now. Certainly, Bolsonaro, as we were saying, is
facing certainly allegations that he led a coup. But conversely, President Lula also knows that he's in a vulnerable position. Where does the
evangelical movement now interject now, in today's Brazilian politics?
COSTA: Most evangelical leaders are still very aligned with Bolsonaro. In the last election, 70 percent of evangelicals voted for Bolsonaro. That
same 70 percent disapprove of Lula's government. And it's important to highlight that these -- many of these were the electorate of Lula are --
belonged to the working class and used to vote for the workers party in previous elections, but are now not voting for their economic interest, but
voting based on moral values.
And very much influenced by fake news. The most shared fake news of the last election was that Lula would close churches or inaugurate unisex
bathrooms. So, we have this rise in fake news aligned with religious fundamentalism that is increasingly making our elections holy wars.
NEWTON: Holy war, those are strong words. In terms of what you see happening going forward, because we repeat again, Brazil is a secular
society. So, how to counterbalance that influence? It was very impactful during your documentary when Lula da Silva himself said, look I do go to
church. I believe in God and it is personal for him, not political necessarily.
COSTA: Exactly. What we're seeing in Brazil is very similar to what is happening in the United States, is the erosion of one of the greatest
inventions of humankind, which is the separation of church and state, which I didn't know until I made this film was invented by Christians to protect
Christians from religious persecution.
And because of this erosion, what is happening is that more and more Christians are the victims of religious persecution. In Brazil, one of the
pastors that I show in our film declared that he would no longer vote for Bolsonaro, but support Lula. This pastor was expelled from his church and
now can't preach. And the same is happening with many pastors who do not align with this far-right ideology. Some are having to go to exile. There
are people who have been killed in churches and I imagine a similar phenomenon is happening in the United States.
[13:55:00]
NEWTON: Certainly, many have commented that there are similarities about what's going on in terms of Brazil itself. We saw some of the impact to
that for COVID-19. Brazilians suffered greatly. Bolsonaro did not encourage them to get vaccinated. In fact, Brazil had a very hard time even obtaining
vaccines.
If we extrapolate to today, what do you see are the dangers? Because in covering Brazil myself, I've argued that people are looking for hope and
agency many times from their political parties, something that the evangelicals promised, and yet, they had none of that, hope or agency,
during crises like the pandemic.
COSTA: Exactly. What -- the irony of our times is that people are seeing more and more the failures of neoliberalism and how broken the system is.
And while the left has become kind of managers of capitalism, the far-right is -- offers this type of revolutionary fervor and promises to take down
the system, but actually, what they propose in its place is something that we've known, it's something that was present during the Middle Ages, which
is a type of divine rule where leaders are not subject to the rule of law where they can -- it's almost like the logic of the strongest will survive
is what happened in Brazil during the pandemic, which led Brazil to have 700,000 people who died because of just state negligence.
And I think that what is important for people to know is that religious fundamentalism is a radicalization of the faith that actually takes many
Christians by assault and the Christians themselves who are suffering in Brazil and who suffered during the time of Bolsonaro, and who will suffer
if this type of holy wars continue to substitute a healthy democracy.
NEWTON: Petra Costa, so much of your documentary is revelatory, especially when you start to unearth the beginnings of some of this evangelical
support and how it still is present today in Brazil. Petra Costa, the documentary is "Apocalypse in the Tropics," we thank you.
Now, that's it for us. I want to thank you for watching. I'm Paula Newton in New York. Goodbye.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
