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Amanpour
Interview with Exiled Russian Journalist Mikhail Zygar; Interview with Children's Entertainer and Educator Ms. Rachel; Interview with Yale University Professor of American Studies Daniel Martinez HoSang. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 07, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Putin and Trump are set to meet, but is peace in Ukraine really on the table? Exiled Russian journalist Mikhail Zygar explains why it might take
more to coerce the Kremlin.
Then the kid's entertainer and internet sensation who refuses to stay silent about the horrors raining down on Gaza's children. I speak to Ms.
Rachel about her championing the rights of all kids.
Also, ahead, inside the rise of the multiracial right. Yale professor Daniel Martinez Hosan tells Michel Martin, why more black, Latino and Asian
American voters are --
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
The presidents of Russia and the United States will soon meet face-to-face, a big coup for Putin who's been boycotted by western leaders, including
U.S. presidents since invading Ukraine. And even President Trump admits his invoice visit to Moscow this week yielded no concrete results. Could Putin
be trying to head off Trump's sanctions, which would due to be imposed tomorrow?
India has already been threatened with a massive 50 percent tariff later this month unless it stops buying Russian oil. Trump has long believed in
the power of his own personality and his personal deal making skills, but many are skeptical about Moscow's intentions including Ukraine's President
Zelenskyy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): It seems that Russia is now more inclined towards ceasefire. The pressure on them is
working, but the main thing is that they do not deceive us in the details, either us nor the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Indeed, the devil is always in the details. So, is Trump underestimating just how invested the Kremlin is, Putin is in waging this
war? Still sticking to Putin's Maximalist terms for peace or could this personal meeting open a window to ending the war? Well, according to our
next guest, Putin has much more on his mind than just a ceasefire. Mikhail Zygar is a Russian journalist who's been forced to live in exile since the
2022 invasion, and he is joining us now from New York. Welcome back to our program.
MIKHAIL ZYGAR, EXILED RUSSIAN JOURNALIST: Thank you, Christiane. Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, there's a lot that seems to be uncertain, including the White House saying in their, you know, daily briefing that nothing yet has
been set. We don't know the location, the date, et cetera. I don't know whether they're just trying to pull back, but what do you think Putin
wants? What is your latest information out of Russia?
ZYGAR: You know, from what I hear, everyone is rather skeptical, because during the last weeks and months they see that there is no any kind of
desire from Putin's side to have any permanent agreement with the United States because he's more or less skeptical. He doesn't think that he needs
any kind of compromise with American administration because he see -- he thinks that any kind of American administration is temporary. So, he
doesn't need to stop the war and he doesn't want to stop the war. And he doesn't really understand why he needs any kind of compromise. But he's
willing to meet Donald Trump, of course. Just unique for the opportunity is always welcome, but nothing more than that is expected.
AMANPOUR: You know, that's interesting because, obviously, they've met before. But it's Putin who has been boycotted, as I said, by U.S.
presidents and by western leaders since the full-scale invasion in '22. This would be a pretty good coup for him. And others have suggested, you
know, he knows what he wants and he's been thinking about this and mapping it out for a long, long time. It's his chance to persuade Trump face-to-
face.
ZYGAR: You know, at the same time, if we listen to what Russian media says, they see this situation in completely different angle. They don't
think that Russia is isolated.
[13:05:00]
For example, today President Putin was meeting with president of United Arab Emirates. This week, sultan of Malaysia visited Russia. Special
representative of India -- of Indian Prime Minister Modi. So -- and Russian state media emphasized the fact that Brazil and India -- leaders of Brazil
and India this week agreed to go to Beijing to attend the summit of Shanghai organization of corporation and discuss the possible tariffs
imposed by Donald Trump.
So, they say that the Twitter diplomacy of Donald Trump makes the anti- American alliance or maybe alliance, which is more loyal to Russia, to President Putin, even stronger. So, they absolutely don't think that Russia
is isolated. And absence of summits with American president, OK. They pretend that they don't care. Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: So, do you think -- and you've been talking to people inside Moscow, do you think they care about the sanctions? I mean, it's curiously
timed this reach out and obviously, it did, in public, come from the Kremlin first. And even as you mentioned, the UAE leader was there. And
Putin said, well, we could, we might be able to meet in our friendly nation of the UAE. So, do you think that they are worried about the sanctions,
which were due to go into effect tomorrow?
ZYGAR: You know, they say, at least, and we see that it's really happening, that most of sanctions are not working. Because so far, Russia
is capable to sell its oil and gas freely. And with -- through third parties or directly to China, India, or Turkey, which are the three most
important trade counterpart for Russia.
And Russian elite doesn't think that Donald Trump is willing and is able to start simultaneously three trade wars with all Russian current partners. At
the same time, recently there was a very impressive investigation published by Russian journalists about Russian trade ships, and huge number of those
trade ships were sanctioned by the International Community, by the European Union and the United States, but they continue working. They continue their
trades. So, they work as if nothing happens.
So, I guess that Russian leadership knows that they somehow managed to bypass a lot of sanctions, which are formally imposed by the United States.
AMANPOUR: So, let me just play a few bits of interviews that Russians on - - in Moscow were telling our Fred Pleitgen, correspondent in Moscow. Just take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I think nothing will change because Biden already did a lot before Trump. More than a thousand
sanctions have been opposed on us. So, it will be the same until the war ends.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't think these sanctions will disturb any ordinary Russian. We have a good economy, and time has shown
that. Throughout the conflict we feel quite well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Mikhail, I mean, on the one hand they're saying what you're saying, that they haven't really been touched. I wonder how much of that is
bravado and how much of that is controlled by the system. You say that one of the reasons Putin is not interested in ending the war is because he is
definitely not interested in changing the social dynamic where he's totally cracked down on any kind of dissent or politicking at all.
ZYGAR: Yes. Obviously, there is a gap between what elite thinks and what elite feels and the real state of Russian economy. So, if Russian economy
is hurt, that doesn't mean that the war is going to stop, because Putin managed to restructure the whole Russian economy to serve for the war. So,
everything is for the war against Ukraine.
But at the same time, the situation is rather tough. This year there is the poorest harvest in Russia. So, obviously Russian agriculture is in crisis
and government is speculating about the regulation of prices for most important food products. There is a huge loan burden on the main private
companies.
[13:10:00]
So, a lot of former oligarchs feel that they are not -- no -- not an oligarch -- not oligarchs -- not -- sorry, oligarchs any longer because
they -- everything they seem to possess actually is owned by state-owned banks. So, the economy is becoming more and more disproportionate. And yes,
there is an obvious problem that is going to be more and more severe. And definitely it'll affect the population, but it does not affect the
decisions of Vladimir Putin.
AMANPOUR: So, you mentioned, and I was interested to hear you say the list of people who've gone to Moscow, for instance, you said the representative
of the Indian, Prime Minister Modi. As you know, Trump has threatened a 50 percent tariff on India. Everybody thought, wow, Modi and Trump are really
good friends. But if Modi keeps buying Russian oil against the global sanctions, Trump has said that they will be tariffed. Do you think that
worries Moscow?
ZYGAR: You know, they don't believe. But from what I hear, they don't believe that President Trump is really serious when he says that. Probably
they are exaggerating, but they don't really think that he's going to be consistent. And that's one of the most important reasons. They don't think
that the United States is ready to undermine its key -- its the crucial partnerships with such countries as India and Turkey. So, more or less
Russian elite thinks that they are invincible.
At the same time, it's very funny how Russian propaganda behaves these days. For many months they were trying not to attack personally President
Trump. They were harshly criticizing different American politicians personally, especially Senator Lindsey Graham, but nothing about Trump. And
it has started changing during these -- the last week or the previous weeks. So, they're starting relaunching their propaganda machine against
President Trump. So, probably they are expecting the end of the thaw.
AMANPOUR: OK. The end of the thaw. That's interesting. Because you remember at the beginning of Trump's new term in office, they literally
were just on all state media, they were talking about what a change and how this really important and how Trump -- I mean, they were saying, Trump
believes our version of this war. And you remember that he then cast Ukraine as the actual villain how this war started. That's obviously
changed now.
Here is what he said, President Trump, last night when asked about the possibility of a meeting and what could be achieved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: There's a very good chance that we could be ending the round, ending the end of that road. That road was long and
continues to be long, but there's a good chance that there will be a meeting very soon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How close do you think you are to a deal?
TRUMP: Excuse me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How close do you think you are to some kind of deal?
TRUMP: Well, I don't -- look, I don't want to say. It's -- I've been disappointed before with this one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, let's just take bit by bit. So, he knows that -- I mean, he said several times, you know, Putin is probably just stringing me along. I
don't know. This and that. I've been disappointed several times. He just said there. How do you analyze or observe Trump's personal belief in his
own ability to convince or to, you know, get anybody to do what he wants, at least if it's face-to-face, that sort of telephone diplomacy? You make a
call to your fellow leader and you go and visit and you can get something done.
Yes, go ahead. Because Trump is -- yes.
ZYGAR: I think he knows that -- he knows how to make deals. But this time, the problem is that there are two different deals with President Putin and
Trump thinks that it's possible to make a deal over Ukraine. But for Putin, there is completely different deal. He doesn't want to make any kind of
deal over Ukraine. He wants to make -- to discuss bilateral relationships between Russia and America. He wants sanctions to be lifted. He wants
economic operations. So, he wants the deal with Trump excluding Ukraine, excluding Zelenskyy.
And it's important that today, while commenting on the perspective of the summit with Donald Trump, Putin says that hypothetically he could imagine
the possibility of meeting with Zelenskyy, but it won't happen anytime soon because there are no circumstances for this kind of meetings.
[13:15:00]
So, Putin really, as he did that before, he's going to talk with Trump about Russia and America and about all kinds of deals between them two.
AMANPOUR: And probably -- I mean, you tell me whether you think this correct, probably try to convince Trump of his vision to end the war in
Ukraine and hope Trump imposes that on Ukraine. So, let's just back up a little bit and remind what are Putin's maximalist goals, which haven't
changed for Ukraine since the beginning of the war.
ZYGAR: You know, actually in the fall of 2021 he issued the ultimatum to NATO and he demanded no less than NATO to return to its borders of 1991.
So, basically, NATO should exclude all East Europe, including Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Baltic Republics and so on. And that was the
key point. And NATO should cease to exist. And definitely, all words, all negotiations about possible integration of Ukraine to NATO should be
stopped and any kind of military assistance to Ukraine should be stopped. And Putin has repeated it number of times this year.
So, that's his most important precondition, which is absolutely unexpectable -- inappropriate for Ukraine, because if any military
resistance to Ukraine stops, that gives Putin perfect possibility to relaunch the war within a month and to conquer Kyiv. And definitely, the
demand of -- to exclude East Europe from NATO, that's just a fantasy.
AMANPOUR: So, some articles and analyses are being written right now suggesting that if Ukraine does not get financial and military guarantees,
you know, security guarantees in any peace deal, that if you -- there's a JPMorgan analysis out, which suggests that Ukraine could drift into a
total, you know, Russian orbit similar to what happened to Georgia when, you know, Russia invaded Georgia, and I mean, Georgia, those parts that
have been invaded are pretty much, you know, rump parts with -- I mean, they'd be neutralized and neutered.
Others, you know, are saying that Russia may not be so concerned about the, you know, kilometers of territory that are in, you know, contested right
now. But they do, Putin really wants control of Ukraine, that it cannot be an independent democratic nation. What are the threats? I mean, what are
the threats there?
ZYGAR: No, I would say that for Putin, this not the war for Ukraine, this the war for Russia. And his ultimate goal is to control Russia and to stay
in power in Russia forever. And for this, the ideal mechanism is to continue the war. So, basically, he doesn't need to win this war. He needs
to continue this war forever if possible.
Definitely he would prefer to have it more successful. So, he would love to conquer more and more bit by bit of Ukrainian territory. And definitely, he
doesn't need Ukraine to be successful democracy, because that has always been a threat. That has always been a terrible example for Russian
population. Now, that's not -- due to decades of propaganda, that's not such a threat.
But he's fine with just continuing the war, because that's his possibility to control the whole population of Russia.
AMANPOUR: Mikhail Zygar, thank you very much. And of course, you know, all of this, we've spoken from the Moscow perspective, but Ukraine continues to
put up a massive fight even though obviously people would like to see an enter the war. But the polls suggest that, you know, they will not accept
what -- you know, what Russia wants in terms of keeping territory that it hasn't even conquered. That's one of the one of the demands. Thank you so
much. We'll keep watching this.
ZYGAR: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: 28, that is how many children are being killed every day on average in Gaza, according to UNICEF, who says Israel's bombardments, its
siege, malnutrition and starvation are taking the innocent lives of an entire classroom every day. And for many, it has now become impossible to
contain their anguish. But one loud and far-reaching voice has been speaking out for a long time. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MS. RACHEL, CHILDREN'S ENTERTAINER AND EDUCATOR: Hi, friends. I'm so excited to learn with you today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Rachel Accurso, known by millions as Ms. Rachel, has emerged as a powerful and courageous advocate for Gaza's children. Her platforms have
amassed 16 million subscribers and over 10 billion views. She's being called the Mr. Rogers of our era. But it comes with a major backlash. And
Ms. Rachel join me from New York to talk about it all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Rachel Accurso, also known as Ms. Rachel to I know millions and millions of children and their parents around the world, welcome to our
program.
MS. RACHEL: Thank you so much for having me, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So, we are really interested, not just because you're such a powerhouse in the, you know, children's programming and the connection with
children, but because of how you've stepped out and stepped up for some of the world's most, you know, suffering children and most particularly in
Gaza recently, although there are others as well.
You probably know this new acronym that came up because of this conflict, WCNSF, Wounded Child, No Surviving Family. What was it that made you step
out and support these children in Gaza?
MS. RACHEL: How could I not seeing what was happening on our screens, hearing from Save the Children who had firsthand accounts knowing that so
many children were losing their lives. It's up to -- over 18,000 children. So, as an early childhood educator, I know what children need. They need
food, it's being blocked. And they need water, it's being blocked. They need to be in school, their schools have been bombed. They need medical
care. I know what children need to thrive, and I know what holds them back.
And it was very clear to me, along with so many others in our country and around the world, that it's so critical to speak up.
AMANPOUR: Did you ever doubt, because this such a political -- you'd think that the humanitarian would be an issue on its own, but even the
humanitarian catastrophe has been so terribly politicized. Were you ever worried? Because even before you spoke up, it was a hornet's nest of
controversy, the idea of speaking up for, let's face it, Palestinian children after October 7th.
MS. RACHEL: Yes, I was worried and I was worried that I'm not an expert in that area, but I knew that I'm an expert in child development. I have two
masters in education. I've worked with children my whole life for 20 years. So, I knew that what I was seeing was wrong and I had to say something. And
I did pray about it. I learned everything I could. And seeing the images of the children, there was no question that it was the right thing to say
something.
AMANPOUR: I want to play this piece of video which is deeply, deeply affecting, and it's two kids, Celine and Sila (ph), watching your show from
Gaza surrounded by the rubble of their home and it's just the most incredible image really. What did you think? And they've got joy on their
faces too when they see it and they can communicate and maybe for a second they forget where they are. How did that move you?
[13:25:00]
MS. RACHEL: Oh, it moves me beyond words that I could bring a little bit of joy in the midst of unimaginable suffering, that I could be there for
them during a genocide. Every day kids messaged me voice memos. One little girl said, will you stay with me my -- I lost my whole family.
So, seeing that and seeing the little ones watching in tents and watching in the rubble, I'm just so grateful that I can be there for them and I know
what my responsibility is as somebody who has this platform to stand up for them. So, I'm doing everything I can.
AMANPOUR: I want to play a little video again, a soundbite really, with people talking. It's a video of the brothers. I know you know this well.
Maher and Malik, who posted this video, talking to them from their tent after their homes had been completely, obviously, devastated. I can see
your smile. I mean, you just communicate and feel without me even having to go into it. So, here's the -- here's this little piece of their sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MS. RACHEL: Hi, Mahe (ph). Hi, Malik (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, Ms. Rachel. How are you? Send you love from Gaza.
MS. RACHEL: Thank you for the love. I really appreciate that. I'm sending you love back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell our story?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK. Ms. Rachel, this obviously still brings you to tears.
MS. RACHEL: I see them like I see my son and the fact that they could have everything they need and it's miles away, it's so frustrating and I just
wish we could wrap them all up in love and give them everything they need and we could. That's what's so painful. They should be in school. He's so
bright. He should be in school.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, tell me, because you yourself are an educator. You know what it means when children aren't in school and these children haven't
been in school for, you know, 21 months. Yesterday, you wrote on Instagram, I'm coming to the excruciating realization that people haven't seen
everything I've seen and aren't moved to do so. My heart is broken. Tell me about that.
MS. RACHEL: Well, I think in your advocacy journey sometimes you get really frustrated because it feels like you're in a nightmare saying, hey,
18,000 kids have been killed. They're the highest cohort of amputee -- child amputees in modern history, you just -- and you just try so hard to
get people to move. And so, I was frustrated. But I have to hold on to hope for them. And there was a beautiful quote I read recently about how we need
to hold on to hope for children of the world.
I also think a lot about child development being an expert in that area. So, zero to three, the brain, it's such a critical time. So, if you're
exposing children to trauma and malnutrition during that time it can have effects for a lifetime. And I'm thinking about all those little ones who
aren't getting that chance. And don't we as grownups in this world have a responsibility to give all children that chance? I don't believe that deep
care and that responsibility ends at our own children.
AMANPOUR: So, talking about our own children. You know, there has been a backlash to you. And of course, you've spoken out about the Israeli
children, the infants and the toddlers who were wounded, who were kidnapped even on October 7th, and that doesn't seem to satisfy the critics. Tell me
about how you've suddenly found yourself and how you're dealing with empathy for all children, but some people don't want to see it for some
children.
MS. RACHEL: It's so tough. I was talking to James Elder from UNICEF and he was telling me about having to start at square one with Palestinian
children, that they're human. And I feel like I've had that experience and it is beautiful to see that and sad, but also beautiful that some people
see the kids on my Instagram and see them laughing to the show and hopping like bunnies and they say, oh, this made me realize that they're like our
kids. So, the dehumanization is so painful.
And then I have so much empathy for an Israeli mom waiting for her child to come home. And I have so much empathy for the people of Gaza losing their
families. And these little ones, this little girl, Maher, who's lost her entire family, another little boy Adam, who lost his entire family.
[13:30:00]
These aren't numbers, these are little ones who are so sweet. I have videos of both of them. They're just like the sweetest kids. And I think that the
numbers are so vast and we think, oh, that's a number. That's a number. It's like, look at my Instagram, look at Raja's (ph) joy. Look at her sweet
innocence. She's just a delight. That little girl is incredible.
And she's doing really well now because she has -- she is here and she is getting medical care and she's using prosthetics. But then, you also see
her and say she shouldn't have lost her legs and her mom shouldn't be video chatting her sons set her away from her in Gaza, and they can't eat on
FaceTime anymore because her sons are hungry. Like we have to put ourselves in the shoes of -- so her mom is a teacher like me. So, I put myself in her
shoes and I imagine FaceTiming my husband with my sons in Gaza, and then having my daughter here without legs, like I put myself in the situation of
an Israeli person watching those videos that came out, and it's just excruciating.
So, I just -- I feel, feel, feel for everyone. And I know who I am and I think the backlash, it's painful, but then you have to be like, I know who
I am and I know what's right. And I will say, Christiane, that there's an - - I think there's a little bit of a narrative that there's the -- there's so much backlash and there was before, but I realized, you know, you think
you're on the internet and you're getting a lot of backlash and then you walk out on the street and people come up to you in tears and say, thank
you so much for talking about Gaza. It's so heartbreaking. People who don't have a connection to it.
I was shopping for Rahaf in the toy store and a woman came up to me and in tears and was just hugging me and saying that -- and people from all walks
of life in different states just coming up and saying, thank you, thank you, thank you. And even some people coming up and saying, we don't agree
on every point, but I know these kids need aid.
And so, I think we can disagree on certain points, and we just all know that we have to treat people better. And I always focus on the children,
but I mean all the innocent civilians, men, women, and children that are starving.
AMANPOUR: People know and you've described that very well. And there's more and more, you know, awareness since those terrible pictures of
emaciated children are coming out and the numbers of -- especially children who are said to have died of starvation there by the U.N. and others.
But I want to just quickly put this little piece of video that you shot. You filmed a special episode with Rahaf, who you've just been talking
about, the amputee victim, who's now in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MS. RACHEL: Wake up, little bunnies. Skip little bunny. Skip, skip, skip. Skip, little bunny. Skip, skip, skip. Skip, little bunny. Skip, skip, skip.
Skip, skip, skip and stop. Let's hop again. Hop little bunnies. Hop, hop, hop. Hop, little bunnies. Hop, hop, hop. Hop, littles bunnies. Hop, hop,
hop. Hop, hop, hop and stop. Yay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: It speaks for itself. It really does. And it's very joyful. Where do you get your empathy, which you're clearly demonstrating? How did
that come to you? And how do you know how to speak to children without speaking down to them to make them connect with you so viscerally?
MS. RACHEL: You know, I think like years of working with kiddos in all different circumstances. And I imagine children when I am talking on camera
it's -- I have a great imagination. I don't know if that affects the empathy. I have a lot of anxiety too. Maybe that's part of it. But I think
it -- I -- yes, I just imagine the kids and I think working with them for so many years, learning what delights them, learning what they are afraid
of and just trying to be there for them.
I've always loved kids. I wanted to help kids. When I was a kid, I told my mom that I wanted to help. children in need. She's like, you're a kid. You
know, I just -- it's been kind of a calling probably from -- actually, I believe it's a calling from God to help kids and help with hunger. I've
always thought about hunger since I was little as well. And, yes, it's just who I am. It's genuine. And the kids feel it.
AMANPOUR: Yes, they feel it.
MS. RACHEL: The genuine care. I wouldn't -- yes, and I wouldn't be Ms. Rachel if I didn't deeply care for all kids. So, that's part of why I use
my platform to try and help all kids. It keeps me up at night. Kids not having food because it just seems solvable.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, it is solvable and it should be solved. Can I ask you about -- because you are Ms. Rachel and you are, you know, the current
generation's Mr. Rogers. So, for anybody who doesn't know, Mr. Rogers was a beloved television personality. Again, a children's personality on
television.
[13:35:00]
And you grew up watching him, right? And he's somebody who inspired you.
MS. RACHEL: Yes. My whole life, he's inspired me and I can't take the comparison because to me he's, you know, a saint and I just revere him and
what he did with his show. And I watched since I was little and yes, I read like all his -- all the biographies of him and I watched all the
documentaries in my 20s and 30s. And I had no plan to go into children's media. So, it's kind of funny. At one point, I was like, I want to write a
musical about Mr. Rogers, because I'm a composer. Just showing like what he did with media and that he felt that media could do so much for people and
that we need to really think about the media that kids watch and we need -- and it's a big responsibility. So, I think about him all the time. I
actually keep a screenshot of him on my phone.
And my husband actually just got me a beautiful little he hand wrote -- Mr. Rogers hand wrote some of the music and signed it, and my husband found
that. So, that meant a lot to me. Actually, I had gotten some backlash that day, and I opened it and started crying because I just felt like I can do
this, you know, no matter what.
AMANPOUR: Rachel, yesterday you made a post, you said, you're not comfortable working with anyone who hasn't spoken out about Gaza. That's
pretty dramatic. Mr. Rogers himself was quite political in his own way, and that he was a major personality in civil rights. And he had that, you know,
moment where he sat with the -- with his legs in a kid's pool with a member of the black community. And it was at a time when there was so much
backlash about desegregation and particularly around pools. Whites didn't like in America sharing their pools with blacks at that time.
So, you are actually navigating a moment which does demand people to stand on one side or the other of history. Do you feel that responsibility as
well? And I guess related, how do you talk to all your children who watch you about some of the terrible things that happen in the world? What do you
say to them?
MS. RACHEL: I have a screenshot of the pool moment because it seems like - - it almost seems like that would be easy now because times have changed so much, although there's still a lot of racism, but it seems like -- but I
kept thinking about how hard that must have been and he did get tons of hate and backlash for a lot of things he did.
But I read that -- I read about a family that that was the end of that conversation for them, if pools should be segregated. They were like, Mr.
Rogers did it. So, you know, I think it's -- I wanted to show that Rahaf is my friend and I love her and that I think she's precious and that I think
she deserves everything that any other child deserves. Children are equal and I see them all the same.
And so, our audience is zero to four. I actually -- I talk about big feelings and how to handle big feelings, but I don't go into things like
war, I'd say with my own child that I always think about that you have to be developmentally appropriate, but you can tell the truth. But you know,
you need to figure out what's developmentally appropriate, what they can handle for that age. So --
AMANPOUR: Well, Rachel Accurso, Ms. Rachel, you have impacted millions and millions of people, kids zero to four, and their parents obviously all over
the world. And we are really happy that you came on our program to talk about it. So, thanks for joining us.
MS. RACHEL: So, honored to join you. Thank you so much for having me.
AMANPOUR: And we'll be right back after this short break.
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[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, the 2024 election showed more and more black, Latino and Asian Americans turning to Trump. It's been puzzling experts ever since. A
professor at Yale may have an answer to the diversity emerging in the MAGA base. Daniel Martinez HoSang joins Michel Martin to explain the politics of
the multiracial right.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Professor Daniel Martinez HoSang, thank you so much for talking with us.
DANIEL MARTINEZ HOSANG, PROFESSOR OF AMERICAN STUDIES, YALE UNIVERSITY: Oh, such a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to our conversation
today, Michel.
MARTIN: Yes, likewise. So, you've been writing about race and politics for a long time now, and a lot of us follow your work. You recently wrote a
really eye-catching piece for The New York Times where you explored the rise of a multiracial conservative movement in the United States. And this
something that people have talked about for a long time. I mean, a lot of people kind of felt was overblown or they felt it was episodic or they felt
it was tied to say a specific movement. What do you think you add to the conversation with your piece?
HOSANG: Part of what I was trying to say is that for this piece, we know that in the last election the estimates are something like 45 to 50 percent
of Latino voters cast their ballot for Trump. Maybe 40 percent of Asian American voters. Black support for Trump is much less, but it, by some
estimates, doubles from the previous election.
And as you said, many people imagine, well, was there an ad there, was it a candidate choice? Was it, you know, a different show someone -- you know,
Kamala Harris should have gone on? And part of what I wanted to lay on this piece is that this a much longer and deeper and really more structural
story. When people are talking about what led them to this place where they identify as conservative, they might support Trump, some even identify as
kind of MAGA folks, there is a longer, longer story behind that. It's not just tied to one election. And I think even folks who do not agree with
these politics, the positions they hold, it is so important to understand those deeper experiences.
MARTIN: And one of the reasons that this stands out is that, you know, Barack Obama. I mean, the fact his first election is second put together
this multiracial coalition. So, obviously, you've talked about the appeal among -- we're going to talk more about this, the appeal of Donald Trump,
but is it primarily the appeal of Donald Trump or the appeal of a movement or is it a kind of disillusionment, disdain with the Democrats? I guess the
question is, did Republicans win or did the Democrats lose?
HOSANG: Yes. So, you know, it's a little of both and I think it's so important, Michel, to go back to 2012, because at that moment, we're
talking about something like 80 percent of voters of color, black, Asian American, Latino voters who cast a ballot are supporting Barack Obama. Even
at that time, the Republican national -- the RNC says, we are in deep danger. We've lost two elections in a row. All our focus groups on polling
are telling us we -- it feels like we're out of touch. Young voters, voters of color find us kind of stuck in the past. If we don't kind of modernize
our image, our accessibility, we are doomed. This Republicans saying that.
MARTIN: One of the people you interviewed, Sam Gonzalez identifies as a gay Latino man. And he had voted Democrat before. But here's again, why is
this so fascinating because so many people identify. Donald Trump in particular and the sort of Trumpism or the MAGA movement as being anti-
Latino, hostile to immigrants and increasingly hostile to gay, transgender people who are part of the LGBTQ movement. So, what happened? What's Sam
Gonzalez's story? What was the appeal for him?
HOSANG: So, this the Rio Grande Valley, South Texas, which for generations had been just a staunchly and reliably Democratic largely Latino Mexican
American voting base. And part of what I, you know, traced out is that wasn't just, you know, their kind of independent attitudes or preferences,
there was real organization there. There's, you know, unions and civic organizations and local Democratic parties and radio stations. And so many
people said, that's why for just generations we never thought about Republicans.
[13:45:00]
I just -- it's very important to understand, after 2012, the rights started to pick up on new opportunities in these communities. They started sending
organizers. They started knocking on doors. The Koch network, you know, libertarian network created this Libre initiative to start connecting with
people. So, that sense that people have no other alternatives, which for generations have been true, wasn't true.
The second thing is with someone like Sam, part of what he said is like, I am a proud gay man. I'm proudly Latino. But that doesn't mean that that's
my only way that I think about myself politically. He says, I'm also Christian. That also shapes how I think about gender, how I think about
religion and faith. And his sense was there's assumptions among the Democrats that if you just look at him and say he's a gay Latino man, these
are the policy preferences. What Sam is describing is true for many more people than we acknowledge.
We sometimes talk about it now as having heterodox politics, mixing and matching, around immigration, around gender, around work, around security,
et cetera. They don't just neatly fall into left, right categorizations.
MARTIN: How do they explain the fact that the way that Donald Trump expresses himself often people experience as anti-blackness?
HOSANG: Yes. Yes.
MARTIN: And so, I'm just curious like how some of the people you talk to, how do they deal with that? How do they think about that?
HOSANG: Yes. I mean, first I just want to say just to acknowledge, right, like Donald Trump, he insulted and denigrated, you know, civil rights icon
John Lewis, he talked about a city like Baltimore as kind of broken, you know, trash. You know, he used a profanity to talk about African countries
and immigrants.
MARTIN: Not to mention the first campaign, talking about immigrants from, you know, Mexico in particular, Latin America in general, as being, you
know, criminals as a group.
HOSANG: Criminals and predators, et cetera. Yes.
MARTIN: They're not sending our best. They're not sending their best, you know.
HOSANG: And then, you know, the Springfield, Ohio, and the eating cats and -- right. It's just never ending. But I'll say in these conversations, the
voters that I talk to, how they would respond, and just to imagine how they'd respond to this important question, would say, I don't take that
seriously. I don't think he's like -- it's being distorted and misrepresented. They're trying to use it to score political points, and I
actually don't really care about that kind of back and forth. So, they say it's -- to me it's a little bit of theater and performance. I'm focused on
like, what's going to make a change.
The other thing is many people said, look, as a Democrat, I've also tolerated a lot of, from their perception, liberal racism from Democrats
that they find condescending and patronizing. So, the idea that once you get a taste of how much they dislike you, you'll realize, you know,
something right.
I think black voters especially have long navigated the Democratic Party that has been also ambivalent about them and has shown, you know, remorse
and distaste and tolerated conditions that didn't honor their dignity.
So, you know, I -- people might also just stay there in those complex ways and try to see what still might be possible versus saying, gosh, this was
all -- I've been hoodwinked. I'm going to go back to some other place where people will honor me.
I talk to most of these folks after inauguration, in those first 90 days, when, remember, Michel, there was just these dramatic changes, Department
of Education, right? All these agencies shut down. And I said like, well, is this what you wanted? And most -- almost every person said, he's doing
what he said he would, which is he's an outsider, he's disrupting the status quo, he's rooting out the perceived corruption, et cetera.
So, I just think that -- and just is the last thing I'll say, do you remember, right, like the week before the election, there was a Trump rally
in Madison Square Garden, a comment said -- you know, made this comment about Puerto Rico as comparing it to garbage. But yes, immediately people
said, well, there goes to support among Puerto Rican voters. But the next day I was talking to a journalist in Pennsylvania and he's saying there's
tons of Puerto Rican flags here. People continue to support it.
So, part of what they think is it's both not serious. He's not really talking about me, and this just kind of what his opponents are doing to try
to discredit him.
MARTIN: What about Asian American voters? Talk about that.
HOSANG: I mean, so like Latino voters, this a really, really diverse group. Lots of different experiences. The dramatic growth in the Asian
American electorate also means, again, lots of different occupations and things that are shaping. You know, it's not just about education or access
to the Ivy Leagues, there's many things.
I talked to a group of mostly Chinese American voters in San Francisco. What was really foremost on their mind, especially those who had like very
small mom and pop shops, was a sense of like order and safety. And they run on very, very small margins. Could they open their store so that they could
just make enough to pay the rent? And San Francisco is a city, like many others, has a profound housing affordability crisis. It has an addiction
crisis that's just spilled everywhere.
So, there's a sense that there's these colossal, colossal problems and there's very, very few Republicans who are representing those voters. So,
again, it's Democrats who get caught with the kind of like, you haven't done anything about it. And that's partly what, for a lot of those voters,
it's actually not their experiences with communism or authoritarianism in their home countries, it's wanting to fix things. Yes, it's local.
MARTIN: The question I have is that I take your point that a lot of the people you interviewed, they want to change, they're tired of the status
quo and they want to change, and Trump represents change. What happens if he doesn't deliver?
HOSANG: Yes. I mean, I'll just say two things there. One is I think that there's a whole set of voters who don't wake up every morning thinking
about what the legislation is, what its impact was, et cetera. And so, they're not going to see it in a kind of cost benefit way. And Trump is so
skilled at continually producing, you know, demons, people who are culpable, et cetera. So, as long as that churn kind of keeps going, I think
he feels like even in a place where he hasn't delivered promises about everything that's going to change, he still benefits.
The other thing, part of this work, we've gone to a lot of right-wing conferences, including this group, Turning Point USA. It has a big
conference in Phoenix every year. You'll see them very accurately talking about problems and challenges in people's lives. You will rarely hear them
talk about solutions. And I think it's because they've picked up on something. People are exhausted. They're lonely and isolated. They want
some acknowledgement that that's a real feeling. Their sense that you can actually do something is an open question, and that's the space they're
kind of inhabiting, if that makes sense.
MARTIN: I mean, there used to be a kind of a broad sense of identity among certain groups. Is it -- is there a bigger issue around identity with group
-- people of color in this country where that just isn't as foregrounded in their lives?
HOSANG: Yes. I think what's happened is precisely what you're saying. I would say for a generation of Latino voters, that was often true as well.
Even if I'm a citizen, I'm not from a mixed status household. If they're talking about them, they're talking about all of us.
There was a really important poll done by The New York Times and Siena College in the fall, and it's asked all these Latino voters, when Donald
Trump is talking about immigrants, do you think he's talking about you? A majority said, no, he's not talking about me. And so, I think that sense of
both, you're talking about the kind of lumping, but there's also that splitting, right. There's a them and an us within all of these communities,
and I think that's partly what he's been effective at speaking to.
And he will say, I believe in you. I believe in your work ethic, your faith, your ability, you know, your love for family. That's why I believe
in all these other corrupt forces, they don't believe in you. I believe in you. So, I -- that's the other thing I've seen is he's -- and so it's not a
de-emphasizing of identity or even cultural pride.
MARTIN: On the other hand, we've seen this, for example, mass deportation scheme ensnaring people who, A, are not immigrants, some who are citizens.
Some who have been here for decades. And so, the question I have is conversely, could the way President Trump is going about implementing some
of these policies, even though they were attractive to voters causing buyer's remorse, particularly among some of these people who are newly part
of this coalition?
HOSANG: Yes. I think there's no doubt, and I think it's reflected in more recent polling among Latino Trump supporters that it has dampened and their
enthusiasm and support, and it's not in line with their understanding of what a fair immigration enforcement is. So, absolutely. But we also can't
underestimate some sense that there are a significant number of folks who identify as immigrants, immigrant families, who also, you know, are
persuaded by robust enforcement practices, and the Republicans are trying to find what that line is. But the idea that just the specter and the scare
of these raids alone will move everyone back, I think it on the ground, it's going to be more complex.
MARTIN: Is there any hope for Democrats?
HOSANG: I actually think in some ways these people that move to the right, they actually have some hope. They're not the folks who are just altogether
withdrawing. They're actually wondering like, well, maybe there is some other possibility here. So, I -- that's what I found, I don't know,
encouraging is that people want, that, they want dignity for themselves.
I actually didn't hear a lot of people just rehashing the same attacks on neighbors and there. You kind of hear that from the stage, but I don't
think that's the world people want to live in. And I think the rebuilding part process happens at the local level when people can kind of see that
trust in action. It's not just about drafting a new candidate or figuring out one new podcaster to fix this, it's really doing what the generation
before did, building this local infrastructure of connection and hope and possibility and love that people feel connected to. That's where I think
there's real opportunity.
MARTIN: Professor Daniel Martinez HoSang, thank you so much for speaking with us.
HOSANG: Thanks, Michel. Such a delight to talk to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: Fascinating insight into the Trump coalition. And finally, I am an artist who writes in the sky, that's the motto of Phil Pity, who walked
a tightrope between the Twin Towers of New York's World Trade Center on this day in 1974. For nearly an hour, the Frenchman captured the world's
attention, hovering 400 meters above ground without a safety net. Immortalized in the Oscar-winning documentary, "Man on Wire."
Pity dared to defy not only gravity, but the law in what became known as the artistic crime of the century. Years later of the tragedy of 9/11, he
wrote, my Towers became our towers. And 51 years on, they live inP Phil Pity's joy and daring do.
That's it for now. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
