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Amanpour
Interview with Chatham House CEO Bronwen Maddox; Interview with IRC Afghanistan Country Director Sherine Ibrahim; Interview with Yale Humanitarian Research Lab Director of Conflict Analytics Caitlin Howarth. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 01, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
A new world order on offer at China Security Summit. Russia and China standing side by side. We get the latest from Beijing and analysis from
Chatham House's Bronwen Maddox. Then urgent rescue efforts now underway in Afghanistan after hundreds are killed and thousands injured in a massive
earthquake. The International Rescue Committee's country director, Sherine Ibrahim, joins me. Plus, the Philippines teenage mothers. Hanako Montgomery
reports on the reality of sex education in the staunchly Catholic country. Also, ahead for us, Ukraine's stolen children speak with the research lab
monitoring the 20,000 Ukrainian children reported to have been forcibly deported to Russia and the efforts to finally bring them home.
And a very warm welcome to the program everyone. I'm Paula Newton in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
An access of upheaval, that's what some are calling China Security Summit, which is wrapping up on its second day. The Shanghai Cooperation
Organization or SCO Summit is being presented as an alternative alliance to the American and European-led world order, with Chinese President Xi
Jinping leading the charge, positioning his country as a model of global economic stability.
Also, in the room, Russia's president Vladimir Putin, India's prime minister Narendra Modi, and Turkey's president, Tayyip Erdogan. A key
talking point of course for this meeting is the relationship between Putin and Xi. China has been a consistent supporter of Russia despite its full-
scale invasion of Ukraine. And while western nations have imposed sanctions on the Kremlin, Beijing has continued to help keep Moscow's economy afloat.
CNN Correspondent Marc Stewart is following all of this for us from Beijing, and he joins us now with the latest. Marc, I know you've been
watching this so closely. What has Xi been saying at the summit and what is the vision he's trying to push here?
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Paula. One thing which has become very apparent to me in my time covering China is the consistency of the
messaging that we hear from the central government from Xi Jinping. This conference was not necessarily an opportunity to introduce new ideas or new
principles, but to really reinforce talking points of the past that China is a strong stable force, really with no surprises when it comes to
economics, when it comes to politics, and that leads to the bigger message of China really trying to establish itself as this alternative to the west,
an alternative to western-led alliances like NATO. And of course, this is happening at a time when we see President Trump really pushing his America
first agenda, essentially locking the United States out of the global landscape and really sticking to its own.
Now, one thing which really is apparent is the fact that China doesn't necessarily take jabs at the United States by name. It's in its messaging.
So, for example, we heard a lot of phrases that are known catchphrases that Beijing uses when describing Washington such as Cold War mentality and
bullying practices. That's the way China takes issue with the United States and its presence, if you will, on the world stage. Let's take a brief
listen to some of Xi Jinping's remarks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
XI JINGPING, CHINESE LEADER (through translator): We should advocate for an equal and orderly multipolar world and a universally beneficial and
inclusive economic globalization, and make the global governance system more just and equitable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEWART: Of course, Paula, we saw leadership from Russia, from India as well as from Turkey, but there are also a lot of smaller nations here that
make up this region. We know as Eurasia. It's important for Xi Jinping, of course, to get these heavyweight leaders behind him, but also the smaller
nations, that too will give China some strength. Paula.
[13:05:00]
NEWTON: Yes, definitely something it is looking for with this summit. Marc, I have to ask you, many of us woke up to these viral images, right?
Xi, Putin, Modi, shaking hands, embracing. This message was not subtle in its optics.
STEWART: Right. The symbolism is very much part of the storyline from this gathering. We see Xi Jinping, we see Vladimir Putin, we see Narendra Modi
at times smiling. Looks like they're laughing, having a lighthearted moment. And then we have these individual relationships. We have the
Russia-China relationship where Xi Jinping and Putin have this -- what's known as this no limits friendship.
We have a tense in the -- a relationship that's been very tense in the past with India. This mark Modi's first visit to China in seven years. There
have been border issues in the Himalayas. Yet China and India now perhaps see some common ground in the sense that they are getting a lot of pressure
from the United States when it comes to the Ukraine question. We've already seen India face very hefty tariffs. It's a prospect that also could face
China all because of their very large oil purchases from Russia.
So, we have an adversary of the United States, Putin, and then we have, you know, a much more amicable relationship, an ally of the United States,
China -- or I should say India, which of course is a large democracy. So, lots of contrast, lots of storylines. But, Paula, the symbolism, the
optics, yes, no question, it's quite stunning.
NEWTON: Grateful to you, Marc, in the early morning hours there in Beijing as we continue to see China display both its economic and military prowess.
Thanks so much, Marc. Appreciate it.
Now, for more on this, I'm joined by Bronwen Maddox, CEO of the British thinktank, Chatham House. I'm grateful to have you here as well. Listen, we
just heard about Xi's goals there in this summit, he talks about true multilateralism and of course criticize the United States, unveiled way
about bullying behavior. He is trying to portray the SCO, the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, as a bulwark against the Cold War mentality.
What is he trying to do here? What is he trying to achieve? And how do you assess China's efforts here? Because, as I said, it is not subtle as trying
to propose this counterweight to western-led institutions.
BRONWEN MADDOX, CEO, CHATHAM HOUSE: It is not subtle, it is persistent. He's been trying it for a long time and trying it in different forums. For
example, the BRICS group, which he got together, which has worked to an extent of saying, here's a club that isn't aligned with America. But it
hasn't really done anything or achieved anything that it set out to do, like getting alternatives to the dollar and so on.
And in this, he's got some, if you like, more distilled, more intense and powerful symbolism of himself, Vladimir Putin, Narendra Modi, altogether,
these leaders of large countries, well, India and China are very large, very much saying, we're on the same side, at least for these purposes.
Now, India has been very careful. Modi has said, I'm not going to be part of the victory parade, but I will be part of the summit. So, he's, in some
ways, keeping his distance and that has been India's strategy all the way along. But China has been handed an open goal by the Trump administration.
I think when it put those tariffs on India and pushed India in one bounce into a bit closer to China.
So, he's got all that symbolism, and you're asking, what does he want to do with it? Well, in the end, Taiwan is part of the picture. He wants to de-
legitimize the western order since the Second World War. And any suggestion that Taiwan is somehow protected by that rules-based order. That's why
there's a lot of talk as well as the words you've used about militarization, blaming Germany and Japan, again those countries that
featured very prominently in the Second World War, blaming them for stepping up their militaries now.
So, trying to portray China for a long, long time since the 1930s even as on the right side of history holding back these other countries. It's a
narrative that has many uses for China. But one of them, even though it isn't spelled out, is to improve what China regards as its right to Taiwan.
NEWTON: Yes, it is impossible to really think about the dispute between Russia and Ukraine without bringing the specter -- you know, the issue of
Taiwan. I do want to do a deeper dive on those viral images we were speaking of. I mean, they seemed almost intimate, something that I have not
seen before, which is why it seemed jarring to me. You've got the handholding, the laughing, the smiling.
[13:10:00]
But as you rightfully point out, China and India remained divided by a border dispute, and it would be extraordinary if Modi actually decided he
was going to attend the military parade. To what extent though has Trump's foreign trade and diplomatic policies aligned the three leaders you see
now?
MADDOX: Quite a bit. It has certainly deposited Modi at that photo opportunity, if you like, in a way that he might not have done just months
ago before all these tariffs hit India, because India has been really shocked by that. It was really aligning itself -- having this position of
not aligning itself with any country, it was leaning very much more towards the U.S. It was building its own strategy of trying to prize companies
worried by China's insecurity off China. Apple being one of the big ones there saying, come invest in India. Well, that doesn't work if they're
suddenly going to be giant tariffs on products made in India.
So, it's really been wrong footed and it's pretty angry about the tariffs and that has led Modi, it probably has added a bit of warmth to those
pictures, even though as you say, India isn't rushing to say, well, we're now on China's side.
NEWTON: I do want to turn to Putin's goals in all of this. He's repeated his claim that the west provoked the Ukrainian war while praising, you
know, his talks with Trump and Russia. In fact, even briefing the leaders on those talks. Look, he is leaning into this issue of multilateralism, but
what concrete gains political, economic military is he hoping -- is Putin hoping to get from this summit?
MADDOX: Lots. So, I think he's the one with the most concrete goals, if you like, to get out of this. First place, two countries continuing to buy
his oil, which he needs to underpin his war effort. The Russian economy is nothing without that and that matters enormously, that India and China do
that.
Secondly, an echo chamber, an amplification, if you like, of that narrative that the west is to blame. He's just defending Russians who would love to
be part of Russia from all this western aggression. And it is a good question of whether he really believes, in some sense, it has been so much
part of the Russian playbook and his playbook just to keep going with this narrative year after year as an assertion of his right to be there. But he
wants -- you know, at the moment he wants Ukraine as much of Ukraine as he can get. And again, the Trump administration has given him a bit of an open
door there.
NEWTON: And to that end, throughout the summit, Putin has continued his assault on Ukraine, including civilians. I mean, how does this bolster his
narrative, which is being amplified, as you say, at this summit, that his battle against Ukraine is a righteous one? Even though again today,
Ukraine, President Zelenskyy was left imploring China to help to stop the war.
MADDOX: And that is a really interesting point, because China is one of the countries, along with the U.S., that could stop this war by leaning on
Russia. Either of them. But it has chosen not to thinking, I think that, Russia is right in thinking it has the upper hand at the moment. But
Putin's narrative is just to keep saying, look, the west is the aggressor. It's moved NATO right up to my borders. I've done everything it wanted. And
again and again, the west is the aggressor. And that very much fits with how China likes to portray the west as the aggressor, as fascist countries
harking back to the Second World War and so on. And therefore, that they are justified in what they do.
Now, they talk a lot, and particularly China, about the rules-based order, but when they don't, it doesn't suit China to follow those rules, like with
laws of the sea. It simply doesn't.
NEWTON: And yet, we have the White House watching on as is President Trump. You seen as destabilizing at this point in time, even to allies.
Some allies are now seeing that, look, China was supposed to be, you know, the threat to democracy instability. China is now juxtaposing that and
saying, no, actually, we stand for stability. I want to point out that Ali Wyne, an expert on U.S.-China relations at the International Crisis Group,
told The New York Times, and I'm quoting here, "That despite their apprehensions over China's conduct, some of those were China's conduct,
some of those countries increasingly regard the United States as a greater, if not the principle, destabilizing force in the international order."
I want to ask you if you agree with that statement, especially because I found it extraordinary that it was China and this summit putting out a
notice about how to strengthen the World Trading Organization, not the White House.
[13:15:00]
MADDOX: Not the White House. And yet, China has not exactly upheld every one of the rules of the World Trading Organization. Where do you start?
Well, it depends where you're starting from. If you're a country that -- where the U.S. president has expressed an aspiration of taking it over,
then you might well regard the U.S. as an aggressor or potential aggressor at the moment.
I think the more common picture among U.S. allies is one of being disconcerted. Can we rely on the U.S. anymore, whether that is European
countries or even Japan, and to some extent South Korea? Can we rely on these old treaties dating from the Second World War? Will the U.S. really
come to our defense? So, countries are very much looking, again, at their own defense and looking at how they position themselves. And if they happen
to be located very close to China, they have to work out how is this going to play out if the U.S. won't come to our help?
NEWTON: I don't have a lot of time left, but before I let you go, I do want to talk about this China as a soft power, right? Does it have an
opportunity here to really challenge the world organizations like the IMF, like the World Bank? We have already seen so much underway on this in
Africa, for instance.
MADDOX: It has money. That's the other hard power, if you like. And that does count with the IMF, but I'm not sure that the chairs and shares, as
it's called, who pays in how much and who gets what voting rights, whether that can really get resolved. And the U.S. isn't going to want China to
have a bigger share there. But it can with money, by a certain amount of influence.
I'm very struck though by the places in which China either doesn't choose to do that, like the Middle East or West Africa or does it -- but countries
don't love it. It's not soft power in the way of a kind of real cultural affinity, it is transactional, to use that phrase.
NEWTON: Interesting and showing the limits, obviously, of that soft power. Grateful to you, Bronwen Maddox. Certainly appreciate it.
Now, alongside the world leaders already there, North Korean leader, Kim Jong Un is also traveling to China to attend that massive military parade
in Beijing on Wednesday. And just days before he's due to stand with Russian President Vladimir Putin to witness that display. North Korea has
released a propaganda film raising its own troops' efforts fighting for Russia and its war against Ukraine. Mike Valerio now on that story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE VALERIO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And prepares to take an elevated place on the world stage, traveling to Beijing for a historic
first. Kim meeting with both Chinese leaders Xi Jinping and Russian president Vladimir Putin.
Kim's regime is out with a new highly edited propaganda video designed to show the North Korean people an idealized glimpse of how the North's army
is fighting in Russia's war in Ukraine, but the reality of the video multiple, if not most of the scenes appear to be staged. CNN cannot verify
if any scenes show actual combat. The point of the display, though, experts say, is to show glory, a sanitized picture of sacrifice. Title cards
purporting to describe how some North Korean soldiers were killed, painting their service as part of a heroic struggle helping Russia.
HONG MIN, SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW, KOREA INSTITUTE FOR NATIONAL UNIFICATION (through translator): It could form a narrative that North Korea's
national status has risen through its participation in the Ukraine war, and that it is forming a solidarity front with powerful countries on the
diplomatic stage.
VALERIO (voice-over): While much of the footage is dubious, the message is clear, North Korea trying to show it's no longer the isolated regime of
years ago.
HONG MIN (through translator): It does connect North Korea's participation in the Ukraine war with its diplomatic achievement of Kim Jong Un becoming
an important leader with a strategic position in Northeast Asia that is on par with Putin and Xi Jinping.
VALERIO (voice-over): But Professor Andrei Lankov notes the timing of Kim's latest propaganda documentary could be part of a continued effort to
show the new experience North Korea's army is gaining.
ANDREI LANKOV, PROFESSOR OF KOREAN STUDIES, KOOKMIN UNIVERSITY: For a long time, for decades, North Korean propaganda always emphasized the
significance of the military. However, it had very little real stuff to talk about.
VALERIO (voice-over): North Korean state media also released new photos on Monday showing Kim examining a, quote, "newly inaugurated missile
production line." Taken together, the images paint a picture of a nation trying to assume a new place on the geopolitical stage, North Korea,
figuratively and literally standing with Russia and China.
[13:20:00]
VALERIO: Worth noting, the last time a North Korean leader was at a Chinese military parade, that was back in 1959. This will be the first
multilateral meeting Kim Jong Un attends with more than two world leaders present. In fact, there will be more than 20 world leaders at this
gathering in Beijing.
Mike Valerio, CNN, Seoul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: Coming up for us, a scramble to reach victims in Afghanistan after a powerful earthquake. We hear from the International Rescue Committee's
team on the ground. We'll have that just after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEWTON: And welcome back. We go now to Afghanistan, where urgent rescue efforts are underway after a powerful earthquake overnight devastated
communities in the east of the country. More than 800 people have been killed in the magnitude 6.0 quake, but thousands more are injured and many
are now in remote and mountainous areas that are difficult to access. Fears loom that the death toll will continue to rise.
The International Rescue Committee is helping those on the ground. And the IRCs country director from Afghanistan, Sherine Ibrahim, joined me earlier
from Kabul.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: We're grateful to you to give us some insight into what is going on on the ground there. What have you been hearing so far about really the
adversity and trying to get to this area and how has the response to this emergency been going?
SHERINE IBRAHIM, IRC AFGHANISTAN COUNTRY DIRECTOR: Well, thank you, Paula. Clearly, it's an earthquake of great magnitude by any stretch of the
imagination. 6.2 on the Richter Scale, hitting Nangarhar Province and nearby provinces as well, including Kunar, Laghman, and Nuristan, as well
as Kabul.
The reason why it's difficult to get to the locations at the current time, well, there are a few. The first is that it's been raining and there have
been landslides throughout the locations where the earthquake happened. There's also a massive attempt to evacuate. So, people trying to get out
fast enough. And of course, all things considered, people trying to get in to help those who are in desperate need as a result of the earthquake.
So, a combination of weather conditions and obviously panic that has set in across the entire eastern provinces of Afghanistan.
NEWTON: And who could blame them for being panicked, especially, as you said, that this is an ongoing emergency, especially given the landslides.
You know, this earthquake, I don't have to remind you, comes as U.S. foreign aid to Afghanistan has been slashed. The Trump administration
terminated more than $1.7 billion worth of contracts, which, you know, has recently exacerbated food and medical shortages have continued. How would
you measure the effect of those cuts on Afghanistan's ability to respond to this tragedy?
IBRAHIM: So, with the U.S. funding cuts, Paula, what has happened is that the humanitarian crisis that existed prior to this earthquake were only
exacerbated, 50 percent of the humanitarian response prior to January the 20th was funded by the generous people of the United States and the
government. Today, that is no more.
[13:25:00]
And with 23 million people in need, clearly, there was desperation prior to the earthquake. Today, obviously without these funds, without these
resources, humanitarian actors, the U.N., the de facto authorities have all been trying to pull together what scarce resources there are to be able to
respond very quickly.
I will say that there has been a very quick response. Today, many actors came together to respond in a way that we believe is commensurate to the
damage. But clearly, when you have medicines in stock, as IRC does, and you're unable to distribute those medicines because you're waiting for a
green light from the U.S. government and its representatives, it makes it even more difficult for organizations and humanitarians like us who are on
the ground, who have the needed medicines and supplies, but cannot distribute them.
NEWTON: And you say you were waiting for some kind of a green light from the U.S. administration, and I hear your point that, you know, the response
so far that you're grateful for what it is, but how has all that changed as well under the Taliban and the fact that it is a Taliban right now that is
in charge of this response effort?
IBRAHIM: Well, the reality is that the de facto authorities have been bringing everybody together today to ensure that whatever resources are
available are dedicated to the response, the earthquake response. So, there have been meetings that have been held, coordination meetings held today,
one will be held tomorrow at 2:00 p.m., all in an effort to ensure that those who are responding are doing so with complementarity rather than with
any sort of duplication.
The resources are clearly stretched. So, all the needs that we are hearing about will likely never be met, but we are starting to get a good picture
of the extent of the damage, and hopefully, those who are able to reach those locations will be doing so as early as tomorrow morning.
I mean, many have already arrived today, but I believe that the mass -- vast majority of the response will start tomorrow.
NEWTON: We're trying to get a measure of how the response may have changed here. I mean, the last time we saw an earthquake of this magnitude was in
October, 2023. More than 2,000 people died. You know, all of this predated, in fact, the closure of USAID and all of those funding cuts on the part of
the U.S. administration. Following the earthquake, how fundamental do you believe these changes are to the response effort and what that effort will
look like for the people that desperately need it yesterday, not today?
IBRAHIM: Well, I think the major change is that the scale will probably be larger. Just today, we've seen a figure from the U.N. of 800 deaths, you
know, 12,000 or so people directly and heavily impacted by this. But the resources are nowhere near what was available at the time of the Herat
earthquake that you are referring to.
So, I believe that the -- what has really changed is our ability to respond at scale and at the speed that we need. The coordination mechanisms are
there. The actors are on the ground. We clearly are trying to pull together whatever we have in terms of resources, but the scale is unmatched by the
resources that we need.
NEWTON: And as you said, quite a task in front of you. Can you describe how difficult it is to get to these regions, how remote it is, and how, you
know, you really need airlift capacity at this point?
IBRAHIM: That's correct. So, critical cases were airlifted today. This region is a mountainous region. It's very, very difficult to get around
these regions on a normal day, let alone a rainy day where there are landslides and where the most impacted communities are very remote. So,
clearly, airlifting will -- is an option and it has been tried today, but it cannot be an option for many of the people in the remote locations.
[13:30:00]
So, getting to those locations, in some instances, will take perhaps, you know, two to three hours by car. If on foot, obviously much, much longer.
But it is quite a difficult trek because of the mountainous nature of the entire eastern geographies of Afghanistan.
NEWTON: Yes. And you spare thought for all of those who've just gone through such trauma and are still waiting for help to arrive. Sherine
Ibrahim, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much.
IBRAHIM: Thank you, Paula.
NEWTON: Now, the world's leading genocide Scholars' Association says Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. They join a growing course of
experts in human rights groups that have reached the same conclusion. More than 63,000 people have been killed there since the war began nearly two
years ago, that's according to the Gaza Health Ministry.
And Israel's partial blockade of the strip continues with famine and malnutrition impacting thousands of people, especially children. It comes
as Israel is halting airdrops and reducing the entry of relief trucks. Ahead of the military's major offensive that they now have planned for Gaza
City. Now, this, despite many sounding the alarm, that such an operation will have disastrous consequences for Palestinians trying to live there.
CNN Jerusalem Correspondent Jeremy Diamond has more now, but a warning that some of the images in this report are graphic and difficult to watch.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Israeli attacks intensify, fear is coursing through the streets of Gaza City,
driving some families to flee. But this hail of bullets is a reminder that even running away carries immense risk and no guarantee of reaching safety.
Fear etched across Saeed (ph) and Marriam's (ph) faces. They listen intently as their mother tells them to stay close to the buildings. They
set off once more. They are among thousands of Palestinians who have begun to flee under similar circumstances. The U.N. says nearly 1 million could
be forced out of Gaza City, which is already experiencing famine.
Israel is halting humanitarian airdrops and ending daily tactical pauses that enabled more aid trucks to reach the city. The first stages of
Israel's assault on Gaza City already underway. Airstrikes and artillery shelling of the city are ramping up and casualty count mounting alongside
it. 135 people have been killed by Israeli strikes in Gaza City since Friday, according to hospital officials.
Israel says Abu Obaida, a longtime spokesman of Hamas' military wing, was killed in one of those strikes on Saturday. No comment from Hamas. And once
again, the all too familiar sight of children among the dead. A mother's anguish and the outpouring of grief and disbelief that follow.
We were gathered in a tent and we had nothing to do with anything. Look in front of you. These are children, this man says. This elderly one here is
my grandmother. This is my sister. I don't know where my brother is.
But these images represent just a fraction of the death and destruction that await the city. These plumes of smoke indicate Israel is readying a
path for its tanks and troops to take the city. Even as Israel's top general urges his government to reconsider a full-scale assault and accept
the ceasefire and hostage release deal on the table.
MUHAMMAD AL-DUHAM: Right now, we don't have -- we didn't know where we go. The bombing around us.
DIAMOND (voice-over): like so many here, Muhammad Al-Duham no longer knows where to flee. His pleas are directed toward one man.
AL-DUHAM: Mr. President Donald Trump, stop the war right now. Everyone die. And if you are care about Gaza City, you should stop the war, because
everyone here die.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: Now, coming up for us after the break, Ukraine's lost children. Thousands abducted and taken to Russia and the fight to bring them home.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:35:00]
NEWTON: And welcome back. Russia's war in Ukraine is having a devastating impact on the country's children. Three children were among dozens injured
by Russian strikes on Zaporizhzhia over the weekend, while a toddler was among four children killed in Kyiv just last week. And then, there are
those who have been abducted by Russia, snatched from their families and their country.
Since Russia's full-scale invasion, Ukraine says nearly 20,000 children have been forcibly deported to Russia with just a fraction safely returned
since. Yale's Humanitarian Research Lab has been monitoring all of this and its director of Conflict Analytics, Caitlin Howarth, joins me now. Grateful
to have you on the program.
As we said, so many children have been taken into Russia. Ukraine says it's nearly 20,000. You know, your organization estimates it could actually be
closer to 35,000. Only about 1,200 since returned. You know, it's an issue that Zelenskyy has brought up again in his bid for a ceasefire, for peace
negotiation. No real results so far. Can you briefly lay out for us the latest if there has been any progress on this and what challenges you've
encountered?
CAITLIN HOWARTH, DIRECTOR OF CONFLICT ANALYTICS, YALE HUMANITARIAN RESEARCH LAB: Absolutely. And thank you for covering this critical story. We are
looking at tracking upwards of 35,000 children right now, and the number of locations that we're looking at. When we first started, we were looking at,
you know, dozens. That number has now exceeded 200, and we have a forthcoming report that will document that in the weeks ahead.
We're looking at a situation that has gone from one where we already knew that children were being exposed to huge rates of Russification through
reeducation programs. We knew that they were being taken to military training facilities. The extent of that militarization and Russification is
far more extensive and frankly, far more thorough than anything that we've seen previously documented at this scale, and that's what we're so
concerned about and why this call for Ukraine's children to come home is so urgent.
NEWTON: You say it's urgent in many organizations, including yours, have used, you know, technology. And yet, let me know about the limits of what
you guys can do if there is no diplomatic solution.
HOWARTH: There's -- yes. Also, there are certain things that we can't reach. So much of what we work to do at Yale is to try and get behind the
frontlines where we're using satellite imagery, every open source that we can find, and often these are documents, websites, things that are put out
by Russia's own government, its own officials. And through its own social media. So, we use every technique that we can to pull all that information
together to try and find information on these children within Russia itself and within its own communities. And that information, while not always easy
to gather, still can be collected.
But what's critical here is that Russia is still constantly taking some of that information down. It's changing the names of children, especially
those that it's bringing into its forced adoption and fostering program. So, it's actually changing the critical details that parents need to find
children who've been pulled into this network and it's making it increasingly difficult for parents to locate children who may initially
have been brought to a certain camp or one location but have since been moved in a complicated shell game to two or three or even more places over
the years.
[13:40:00]
NEWTON: Yes. I think, at this point, it is important to kind of amplify the stories of some of the children that, as you described, were forcibly
displaced, assimilated, illegally adopted. I've been struck by the stories of so many families that have gone behind enemy lines just to try and do
something to reclaim their families. I want you to listen now though to Nastya Motychak who was taken to Russia controlled Crimea. This is what she
said in 2023 about her experience. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NASTYA MOTYCHAK, 16-YEAR-OLD TAKEN TO RUSSIAN-CONTROLLED CRIMEA (through translator): We had to do some laundry and we were going over to fetch it.
When she ran towards me, grabbed me, shook me, shoved me inside a room, and started yelling and swearing at me. You scum. If this happens again, I know
where to report you. I will send you to an orphanage. She struck me before she said it. I will report you to the police that you are fugitive, that
you fled Kherson to here, and you'll be taken away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Just startling testimony there. And besides Russia's claims that is some kind of benevolence on their part with these children, can you tell
us about some of the treatment that you've heard that these children are facing?
HOWARTH: What we've documented, and this -- I should be clear, these aren't just one or two off, you know, anecdotal cases, this has been
extensive and it really is systematic, is that Russia is using this system, this network of orphanages, of institutions and its placement system for
adoptions and fostering as well as cadet schools, military training, all of this in a coercive manner to control these children, and that can be used
in an escalating way.
We had one case we documented with a young girl who she was forced into accepting a placement, basically accepting an adoption placement, which she
did not want to take, and which she legally had a right to refuse, but she was coerced into taking it because she was told that she would be separated
from her four younger siblings and they would be put into an orphanage without her if she didn't accept it. So, you see how this kind of coercion
can work in a lot of different ways against these children, and that's just one story.
The use of physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological tactics, any number of different things, we've all -- we've documented all of this extensively
throughout these different programs, all of which is being used to try and control Ukraine's children, to force them to give up their identity, their
heritage, and their language.
NEWTON: Yes. And to speak more of this erasure, this -- what they're trying to do to, indoctrinate these children, this is a poignant story. It
is the sister of a 12-year-old boy who had been retrieved from Russian detention. And what she said about the difficulty about being reunited with
him. This is Ksenia Koldin. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KSENIA KOLDIN, SISTER OF 12-YEAR-OLD BOY RETRIEVED FROM RUSSIAN DETENTION (through translator): I understood I was being faced with the fact that he
didn't want to come with me. He was comfortable there. He had friends there. There was a war on, it was bad. Everything he'd been told by those
around him, that there was a war on, all these Ukrainian Nazis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: As a tool of psychological warfare, what do you think Vladimir Putin wants with it?
HOWARTH: It's, I think, complicated. And this is -- one thing that where we have to look both to what's happening today and also looked at history.
Putin is an excellent, excellent student of history, and this is an area where Russia has used these techniques and this kind of mass Russification
of children before. It's done this with young -- with what used to be called the Young Patriots Program. Children from Latvia, Lithuania, from
Poland. All of these former Soviet socialist republics, they can all tell you that they have their own histories with Russia when it comes to what
happens to their children.
And so, in many ways, Ukraine is going through something that there are many echoes of it through history. And so, if this can be used in many
ways, one of the most critical of which is on the frontlines itself. When you see young Ukrainians start to show up on the frontlines of a
battlefield against their own homeland, the effect that that can have on morale, the effect that it certainly has when you're trying to force not
only a ceasefire, but peace negotiations on your own terms, I don't think that that can be overstated. So, all of that is, I think, really critical
to appreciate here.
[13:45:00]
NEWTON: You know, in terms of trying to return these children. The first lady, Melania Trump -- President Trump hand-delivered a letter from her to
Vladimir Putin. And yet, your research lab at the start of this year, you know, the funding was halted. It has been a bit of contradictory statement.
Have any of these cuts ultimately influenced or affected the research, the valuable research that your organization and others are doing?
HOWARTH: Well, it certainly slowed us down initially, but it hasn't stopped us. So, we are continuing as fast as we can with as much speed as
we can. And while I will say that we've got -- you know, we're -- we know that it's tight. There's -- we have enough to keep going for another few
months through the generosity of the many, many people who have donated to us individually, but every month part of my job is to see how much longer
we can keep on going.
And that makes it tough to plan an investigation and to keep your team moving as long as you want them to, especially because these are
investigations that require time and they require a lot of delicate resources.
NEWTON: Even --
HOWARTH: So, it certainly does mean that we hope that there will be more resources forthcoming, especially from the governments that know that the
future of Ukraine's children is directly tied to peace.
NEWTON: And I only have about 30 seconds left, but in that light, do you hope that the first lady continues to become involved in this?
HOWARTH: I do. I think we've seen both from the first lady and also from really important Republican and evangelical leaders across the board.
They've made it very clear that Ukraine's children can't be treated as hostages for negotiation, that their return has to be the preconditioned.
And we hope that their leadership is going to continue to lead the way.
NEWTON: Caitlin, again, thank you. Really appreciate it.
HOWARTH: Thank you for your time.
NEWTON: Now, we turn to the Philippines in a fierce debate over sex education in the staunchly Catholic nation. Child and teen pregnancies in
the Philippines are amongst the highest in Asia. Hanako Montgomery explains in this story part of CNN's "As Equal Series" on gender equality.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. JUNIE MELGAR, FOUNDER, LIKHAAN WOMEN'S HEALTH: Their reproductive tracts are not yet ready. Mentally, they're also not ready.
HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you think these 13-year-old girls are sinning?
JEROME SECILIANO, CATHOLIC PRIEST: Yes, they are sinning.
MONTGOMERY: Are you scared about giving birth?
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): It's a school day for 15-year-old Jamica. But before she gets to class, she plays with little Jamico. Her nine-month-old
son.
JAMICA, MOTHER: If he cries before I got to school, I have to play with him first before leaving.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Jamica was 13 when she conceived. Pregnancy crept up on her, foretold in stretch marks and a late period.
JAMICA: I cried.
MONTGOMERY: Why did you cry?
JAMICA: Because I was young, and I was already pregnant.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Jamica is part of a soaring number of Filipino adolescents forced to end girlhood for motherhood, but she's one of the
fortunate ones. Not only did she endure pregnancy and labor, but she's also finishing her education.
MONTGOMERY: Jamia's is just on her way to school now. And you can tell that she really loves her son a lot, very much cares for him. But if she
had the choice not to get pregnant so young, she would've chosen that.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Here in the Philippines, teen pregnancy has been described as a national emergency. Young families often belong to the
poorest communities. A fragile homes and narrow alleyways. Now, the latest government data collected between 2019 and 2023 shows a 38 percent spike in
the number of 10- to 14-year-olds giving birth in the Philippines. None old enough to choose such a life changing ordeal.
MONTGOMERY: How difficult is it for an adolescent girl to give birth?
DR. MELGAR: Well, we know that pregnancy below the age of 16, it's three times riskier than in older women.
MONTGOMERY: So, these girls can die?
DR. MELGAR: Yes. Their reproductive tracts are not yet ready. Mentally, they're also not ready. So, they're not seeking the care.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Women's health advocates have told CNN that the crisis is fueled by social media's growing role as a place to meet people
and COVID-19 restrictions loosening. In an effort to curb adolescent pregnancies, sex education advocates introduced the adolescent pregnancy
prevention bill, which would standardize and enforce sex ed in school. But under pressure from the Catholic church and conservatives, it was stalled.
[13:50:00]
Three years on, the Senate still hasn't passed the bill. Its latest version introduced in July grants major concessions to conservatives, guaranteeing
parental control and religious freedom.
MONTGOMERY: Most people in the Philippines are Catholic, and the church has a lot of power in this country. They influence Filipino society, values
and also to some extent, politics.
SECILIANO: Even if you bombard them with sex education, still they're going to engage in sex and then get pregnant later on.
MONTGOMERY: We've spoken to some very young moms who got pregnant at age 13, and they all said that had they received sufficient sex education they
would not have chosen to get pregnant.
SECILIANO: Well, that's a narrative that we don't want to discredit, but I'm telling you that even if you tell people not to sin, it's still they're
going to sin.
MONTGOMERY: So, do you think these 13-year-old girls are sinning?
SECILIANO: Yes, they are sinning. When they engage in sex without the benefit of marriage, it is a sin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With everything we have, we have to root out --
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Conservatives against the bill have rallied around a new lobby group called Project Dalisay, or an English Project
Pure.
MARTIN: What exactly about this sexual education program are you against?
MARIA LOURDES SERENO, CONVENOR, PROJECT DALISAY: Filipinos cannot imagine the thought that the reproductive organs of their young children as young
as grade one will be discussed in a classroom setting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good morning, Mr. --
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): U.S. right-wing Christian groups have influenced the debate in the Philippines. Anti-abortion rights group, Human Life
International has campaigned against the bill, telling CNN in a statement, it poses a (INAUDIBLE) to the Philippines. Family Watch International also
told CNN that sex ed programs are inappropriate and unnecessary.
Project Dalisay convener, Maria Lourdes Sereno, says she's taken the lead from right-wing Christian groups in the U.S., but denies any financial
ties.
SERENO: We look for information, the technical information, the science from the U.S. is actually very -- it's important to note the science that
U.S. thinktanks produce, U.S. medical experts produce.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): In 2022, the Philippines raised the age of consent from 12 to 16, meaning adolescent pregnancy may constitute
statutory rape. Volunteer group Likhaan warns the rise in adolescent pregnancies is also driven by this power imbalance between some young girls
and older teenage boys. And shifting attitudes towards them spending time together. It's one of the many things they teach young women about as they
race to fill this gap in the Philippine sex education.
PRINCESS SALAMAT, VOLUNTEEN, LIKHAAN WOMEN'S HEALTH: So, in here we have a condom. And then, we also have combined oral contraceptive pills, but it
can also be used for the plan B method or the emergency contraceptive pill method.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Likhaan is greeted warmly here, friendly faces in a community where birth control is a luxury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for the condom.
MONTGOMERY: So, the volunteers who were handing out these condom kits told me that they target these basketball courts because they know that young
men gather here and they don't have access to good contraceptives. So, they hope that with these condom kits, they'll practice safer sex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I took these condoms so I don't impregnate anyone. I'm too young to have a family.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): At 14, Clara thinks she's too young to be an expecting mother. She's asked to remain anonymous because she doesn't want
her classmates know she's pregnant.
CLARA, EXPECTANT MOTHER (through translator): I haven't gone to the hospital.
MONTGOMERY: Why not?
CLARA: I have no money yet, to go to hospital.
MONTGOMERY: Do you think it's going to be a boy or a girl?
CLARA: I don't know. I want a boy.
MONTGOMERY: Boy. Why do you want a boy?
CALRA: I want him to be like my older brother. I don't want him to end up like me. And he won't get pregnant.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): As the political battle rages on, thousands of girls like Clara are forced to live with the consequences of a life they
would never have chosen.
Hanako Montgomery, CNN, the Philippines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: And our thanks to Hanako for that report. And finally, for us, a strong message from Pope Leo. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE LEO: Our prayers for the victims of the tragic shooting during a school mass in the American state of Minnesota. We include in our prayers,
the countless children killed and injured every day around the world. Let us plead God to stop the pandemic of arms, large and small, which infects
our world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:00]
NEWTON: It is not common for the pope to speak in English. He is of course referring though to the killing of two children in Minneapolis last week
shot dead as they prayed at mass. The pontiff made the remarks on Sunday. And as the first American Pope, his words, in English are especially
resonant. Now, he chose, as we said, that particular prayer in English, perhaps hoping that it will be heard in the necessary corridors of power.
And that's it for us for now. If you ever miss a show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and on social media.
I want to thank you for watching. For Christiane Amanpour, I'm Paula Newton in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
