Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with Institute for National Security Studies Senior Fellow and Former Head of Iran Branch of Israel's Military Intelligence Danny Citrinowicz; Interview with "Darkology" Author Rhae Lynn Barnes. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 06, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
CNN founder Ted Turner, the man who created a revolution in global news, has died. Christiane joins me with reflections on his life and legacy.
Then, Trump tries to wrap up the Iran War, but what is the reality on the ground? I ask Middle East security expert Danny Citrinowicz, who was
Israel's top Iran intelligence analyst.
And "Darkology." Rhae Lynn Barnes tells Michel Martin how blackface exploded from a niche performance into a national export.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. CNN founder Ted Turner has died at the age of 87. An innovator and an icon, he
revolutionized the television business by turning a wild idea into reality, creating the first 24-hour news channel right here, CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED TURNER, CNN FOUNDER: To act upon one's convictions while others wait, to create a positive force in a world where cynics abound, to provide
information to people when it wasn't available before. I dedicate the news channel for America, the cable news network.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Ted Turner was more than a media mogul, he was an environmentalist, a peace activist, a champion sailor and a philanthropist,
donating $1 billion to the United Nations over 10 years. Turner was married three times, including to actress and activist Jane Fonda. Ted Turner is
survived by five children.
For more on Ted Turner's life and legacy, let's bring in somebody who worked very closely with him, our very own Christiane. Christiane, it is
good to see you. I'm sorry for the loss of someone who I know was a role model for you, who helped create the state of news today as we see it
through an international lens. You were the international anchor. You wanted to be the foreign news reporter. And he told you, no, I don't like
that name. It's international. The world is seen through an international lens.
And it's crazy to think back that you started as a desk assistant in Atlanta in 1983. You recall delivering coffee and Twinkies, hearing rumors
that Ted may actually not be able to make payroll that week. Here we are now, so many years, so many decades later, you have traveled the world
reporting from war zones all over. I wonder how leaders around the world, how they viewed Ted?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, Ted was always the most exceptional character, Bianna. And today is a very sad day. It's a
sad day for the CNN family. And I think it's a sad day for the world. But I also think it's an important day that we're able to remember this great,
great man.
Remember when giants strode the world, because he was a giant and there are very few of them now. He started CNN not just as a moneymaker for himself,
not just a vanity project as the great American capitalist entrepreneur that he was, but really to make a difference in this world for good. And he
really believed that us telling the stories of the world back to America and reflecting America back to the world was a great, great service. And he
was right.
And, you know, the word startup didn't exist then, and yet CNN was a startup. The word video on demand didn't exist then, and yet that is what
CNN created. And it was the first, the absolute first, and most especially in television around the world, it was the first. So, he broke down so many
barriers.
And he was, you know, handsome and swashbuckling, and he was our commanding officer. And we said, yes, sir. And we followed him, not because we were
afraid, not because there was any punishment or punitive measures, but because we believed in his vision. And we were all his willing, you know,
accomplices. And it was absolutely the best place to be as a young journalist. Who knew it was chicken noodle news, you remember? And yet he
made it. And yet he made it.
[13:05:00]
I remember all of us at the beginning, I don't think anybody had a graduate degree. We were all undergraduates. And we all said, hey, you know, we'll
go to CNN, and we'll do our graduate studies on the job. And then we'll go to the big leagues if we can. Who knew that CNN was going to be the big of
the biggest leagues?
And today, I think what he created stands out most importantly, because he told us that we had to cover the world from all sides, no matter who liked
what side. We were not activists for political agendas. We were just out- and-out news reporters.
And yes, he basically broke down the barrier using the word foreign. He said, no, you're no longer, this is not foreign news. You're not a foreign
correspondent. This is an international news network, an international correspondent. It was a bit difficult to swallow, because I really would
have liked to have been, you know, Edward R. Murrow, a great foreign correspondent. But, you know, we were international correspondents.
And I saw him many times. I worked for him, so I was not his friend in terms of, you know, pally-pally. But towards the end, and especially after
he was no longer in executive power, we did go and see him. Many, many CNNers went and trekked and did the pilgrimage, not just, you know, because
we thought it was our duty, but because we still wanted to hear what Ted had to say and what Ted thought.
And one of the last was the interview that you're going to play now. And he was clearly, you know, much diminished, but as sharp as ever in his vision,
in his engagement. And I hope you enjoy this last interview that we conducted.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you about how you're feeling?
TED TURNER, CNN FOUNDER: I'm feeling tired, but I'm working on it.
AMANPOUR: Do you feel you don't have the same energy than you used to?
TURNER: Oh, no question about it. I've got arterial fibrillation that's in remission right now, but it could come back at any time.
AMANPOUR: You are somebody who's known for your phenomenal success. I mean, kind of mind-blowing success and the cutting-edge reforms that you've
been doing. How much do you look at success in context with failure? What does failure mean to you? How do you look at failure? How you deal with it?
TURNER: Trying to avoid it. And I've been successful in doing that. I knew I didn't have enough money to get CNN to break even. But I figured, I said,
how am I going to get around it? I thought it through real carefully. And I figured if I get on the air and people see just how helpful it's going to
be, I'll be able to raise the money later on. And I was able to do just exactly that.
It was hard because of the finances. The first year, the budget, we were 100 percent over the budget on expenses. It cost us twice as much to run as
we had projected. And the income was half as much as we predicted. So, the bottom line was one quarter of what we projected. And the bankers just
said, Ted, we're sorry. This is not a bankable deal. You've got to give us our money back. I said, give me a little time to get somebody else to lend
it to me.
It was really fun. I mean -- and it was scary. It was just as scary or scarier than the wind in the facet race. But all storms have a lot in
common. You know, you're in danger. You've got to be a cool head. Timing is important in everything that you do. The first 10 years, we lost money. And
then we broke even in the 11th year. And now, we're making a decent profit.
AMANPOUR: When you were very young, your father told you to be sure to set your goals so high that you can't possibly accomplish them in one lifetime.
That way, you'll always have something ahead of you. Did you set your goals high enough? Most people would say yes. And you've accomplished them all.
TURNER: Yes. Well, I haven't accomplished them all. We haven't gotten rid of nuclear weapons. And we haven't got -- we're headed in the right
direction, but we haven't gotten far enough along with fighting global climate change. That after nuclear weapons is the greatest danger that we
face, and it's preventable. The good thing is almost everything is preventable. The bad things, all you've got to do is do them.
AMANPOUR: You have done so many amazing things, and you have had and are living an amazing life. One of the things I'm really interested in is this
incredible FastNet race in 1979.
[13:10:00]
So, what do you remember today about that race, which was such a dangerous race?
TURNER: It was a dangerous race. I remember that. It was -- the winds got up to close to 70 miles an hour, and the waves got to 40 feet high,
according to the statistics. So, it was rough, and 14 people were killed.
AMANPOUR: Did you know it was going to be as big as it was?
TURNER: Uh-huh. In fact, when I heard the weather forecast, our navigator came out of the navigation booth and told us it was going to be the weather
that it was. I said, 20 people were going to die tonight, and 14 did.
AMANPOUR: Fourteen or 15, in fact, did. You're absolutely right. Did you ever think of not going through with the race? Was it ever --
TURNER: Dropping out? No way. I never liked dropping out with CNN.
AMANPOUR: So, you were determined to push on?
TURNER: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: Was there ever a moment that you thought you wouldn't make it?
TURNER: No. But I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about not making it. I was trying to figure out how to keep going.
AMANPOUR: Were you afraid?
TURNER: No. I was concerned, but I wasn't afraid. If I'd have been afraid, I'd have dropped out. There was no penalty for dropping out.
AMANPOUR: Except you wouldn't have won.
TURNER: Right.
AMANPOUR: Were you more concerned with winning than dying?
TURNER: That's what it said in the book. Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: And CNN was also a major challenge. I mean, it wasn't an easy thing to start, right? It was the --
TURNER: No. everybody -- just about everybody that had an opinion didn't think we could do it. And what did you say to them? What did you say to
that? Take a look at it. In retrospect, now you can see that we did do it, obviously. And it was a huge success. Huge.
AMANPOUR: How did you convince them? And did you ever feel that if all these experts are telling me I can't do it, well, maybe there's something
to it?
TURNER: Didn't bother me at all.
AMANPOUR: Were you trying to create a revolution with 24/7 news or were you just trying to find another brilliant business opportunity? What was
your motivating impulse?
TURNER: Both. Both. And I thought it through very carefully. That's what I did. I studied the situation and I knew what I was doing. At least I felt
like I knew what I was doing. And it turned out that I did.
AMANPOUR: And then after you created CNN in the United States, which already created a revolution, do you remember what it was like when you
were shut out, when CNN was shut out of the White House, for instance?
TURNER: It wasn't for very long. We sued the president.
AMANPOUR: You sued the president?
TURNER: And the government and the Supreme Court heard the story right quick and voted in our favor.
AMANPOUR: So, then CNN cameras could go and cover the White House like everybody else?
TURNER: Right. That's all we were asking. It's equal access.
AMANPOUR: You've said that of all the things you've done, and you've done a lot, that CNN is the business achievement of which you're the most proud.
TURNER: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Ten years later was the Gulf War, when CNN really exploded into the international consciousness, into the global --
TURNER: We were the only ones that were covering the war live from behind the lines.
AMANPOUR: Do you remember all the pushback you got from the president of the United States, from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, from all these
people who called you up and said, Ted, get your people out of Baghdad?
TURNER: Well, the president didn't call me. He called Tom Johnson. But the word got to me.
AMANPOUR: Did you ever think of obeying those orders?
TURNER: I couldn't do it because it was too important. And I said, as long as we have people that volunteer to stay, and Peter Arnett volunteered.
AMANPOUR: And Bernie Shaw and John Holliman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: Let's describe to our viewers what we're seeing. The skies over Baghdad have been illuminated. We're seeing bright
flashes going off all over the sky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: Bernie really got caught there. He got out the next day. He was only there the first day.
AMANPOUR: But it's legendary what they did that night.
TURNER: Oh, yes. Yes, that was it.
AMANPOUR: And then everybody else took CNN.
TURNER: Right.
AMANPOUR: Fast forward all these years to now, there's a lot of politics that's involved, even in news coverage. And people can criticize. They can
say, well, were you on the side of the Iraqis? Why weren't you patriotic Americans? What were you doing in the enemy camp? Why were you behind enemy
lines? What do you say today to people who still ask that question? Not just about --
[13:15:00]
TURNER: They don't ask it.
AMANPOUR: Not just about this story --
TURNER: It's -- we changed the way things were done. It wasn't -- we weren't anti-American. We were just pro-truth.
AMANPOUR: And were you pro-truth when you took up the invitation from Fidel Castro decades ago to actually go to Cuba and see what this guy was
all about? What made you go there? Was that about --
TURNER: Curiosity. That's what makes us go everywhere. That's what people watch the news for. Because they're curious about what's going on.
AMANPOUR: Did you have an idea of Fidel Castro?
TURNER: Thought he was pretty colorful.
AMANPOUR: And did you change your opinion when you got --
TURNER: And he had a lot of courage to tackle the United States, you know, being so close to us.
AMANPOUR: Did you change your opinion at all when you got down there? I mean, your father was very strongly anti-communist like most Americans.
TURNER: I was too. You don't have to agree with somebody politically on everything to feel like they have, that they have worth.
AMANPOUR: And you also said, after this eye-opening trip to Cuba, I flew home with a whole new desire to understand more about other cultures and
political systems and to do what I could to increase communication and dialogue between nations.
TURNER: Yes. What's wrong with that?
AMANPOUR: Nothing. But it doesn't happen very much. And do you think people are still that committed to doing precisely that?
TURNER: Maybe not quite as committed as I was.
AMANPOUR: I mean, your whole ethos was about trying to build bridges between nations, especially with the Goodwill Games, when you tried to
build bridges between then Soviet Union and the United States.
TURNER: During the 20 years of the Goodwill Games, we never had better relations with Russia.
AMANPOUR: And just remind me, who was your guide then? Wasn't it the young Vladimir Putin?
TURNER: Yes, vice mayor of St. Petersburg. We had the games there. Forget what year it was, but it was when he was there.
AMANPOUR: And what was -- what did you think of him at that point?
TURNER: Seemed like a pretty capable, competent guy.
AMANPOUR: Does it surprise you that now that he's president, all these years later, there is real antipathy between him, Russia, and the United
States?
TURNER: It's terrible. I'm the guy that believes that we should learn to how to get along, particularly the countries that we cannot afford to get
into conflict with Russia, and because of their nuclear weapons, and China.
AMANPOUR: So, during this crisis between Russia and Ukraine, and the raid against the West, something that I thought was unthinkable happened.
President Putin has, one way or another, raised the specter of, quote/unquote," the nuclear option. And I certainly never thought in my
life, particularly after the Cold War, that this would be a possibility. And you, who've spent so much of your life trying to secure nuclear weapons
with the Nuclear Threat Initiative, can you believe that this is actually happening in 2015?
TURNER: It's hard to believe, but we're both, we're both guilty. The only thing that we can do is have total nuclear disarmament. Either we all have
nuclear weapons, or we all don't have them. And I'm in real favor of not having them. We should get rid of all of them, and sign a treaty that we'll
never mess with them again. We don't want to destroy the world. It's a very dangerous situation. Those bombs are so powerful, that just a few of them
will kill life on Earth. And we've got thousands of them. On air trigger alert.
AMANPOUR: Do you worry that there could be an accident?
TURNER: Yes. There have been numerous accidents, but fortunately, none have triggered an explosion yet. But it could happen at any time. Just look
at how we do with airline travel. We've worked so hard all over the world to make our planes safe from, and even with that, every month, one crashes
somewhere in the world.
And so, if that can happen with our airlines, it can sure happen with our nuclear weapons. We've got to get rid of them. It's just like having
dynamite in your basement. We ought to work on the things that make our lives better, not the things that make our lives worse. And weapons and
armies and aircraft carriers are just a waste of money and a waste of time. It's time to put war behind us. We've made enough progress to where we can
say goodbye to war and say hello to cooperation and working together.
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, you can say that because you're 76 years old and you have been fighting for this.
TURNER: I've been saying it all my life too.
AMANPOUR: Precisely.
TURNER: I haven't changed. I was saying this 50 years ago.
AMANPOUR: What advice would you give to the young entrepreneurs of today who are wondering where to invest their energy, where to put their
creativity? You seized cable before cable was cool as the ad went. What would you say to people today? What is the most important area of business
endeavor?
TURNER: Where a chance to make a fortune. Energy. Clean renewable energy is the biggest single project because most of the people in the world don't
have clean renewable energy.
AMANPOUR: What would you say to the skeptics who say there may be some climate change going on but A, it's got nothing to do with us and B, trying
to fix it with alternative energy is just economically not viable. What would you say to them?
TURNER: I'd say I hate to say this but I think you're wrong.
AMANPOUR: I want to go back a little bit further. You went to Brown University to study the classics.
TURNER: No.
AMANPOUR: No.
TURNER: I went there because my father wanted me to go to an Ivy League school and I got in there.
AMANPOUR: Your father wanted you to go to an Ivy League school and you got in. That's where you went.
TURNER: I didn't plan to study the classics when I first went to Brown. I didn't know what I was going to study.
AMANPOUR: You did study the classics, right?
TURNER: I ended up going that way because it was inspirational for me.
AMANPOUR: In what way?
TURNER: Well, the grandiose plans of the classics. Horatius at the Bridge. Then step forward, Horatius, the captain of the gate. He said to every man
of woman born, death cometh soon or late. And how can man die better than facing fearful odds for the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his
gods? Hew down the bridge, Sir Council, with all the speed ye may. I, with but two beside me, will hold the foe in play. On yon narrow span a thousand
might well be stopped by three. Now, who will stand on either hand and guard the bridge with me? I like that.
AMANPOUR: I like that too.
TURNER: I signed up for classics. I said, here I am. Hew down the bridge.
AMANPOUR: This letter from your dad when you declared classics your major, he said, my dear son, I'm appalled --
TURNER: I know.
AMANPOUR: -- even horrified that you've adopted classics as a major.
TURNER: I know.
AMANPOUR: As a matter of fact, I almost puked.
TURNER: On the way home today.
AMANPOUR: You remember the letter. I think --
TURNER: Of course, I remember.
AMANPOUR: -- you're rapidly becoming a?
TURNER: An asshole.
AMANPOUR: No, it was a jackass.
TURNER: Damn it, I sent you there.
AMANPOUR: What did you think when you got that letter from your own dad?
TURNER: I was more amused than anything because I saw the value in classics.
AMANPOUR: But what would have happened had you stuck with the classics? Would there have been a CNN? Would there have been a nuclear threat
initiative? Would there have been a Goodwill Games?
TURNER: I did stick with the classics. I stuck with classics and they were with me. I was inspired to stand at that bridge.
AMANPOUR: Can you do Shakespeare?
TURNER: A little bit.
AMANPOUR: Do you have anything you'd like to declaim?
TURNER: This is, I think, Richard III. Anyways, one of the Richards. Oh, my honor is my life. We live in one. Take honor from me. And my life is
done. Then pray, my liege. My honor, let me try. For that I live. For that will I die. And I live with that. There's not one blemish on my honor in my
entire 76-year career. Not once. How many times have you heard protesters saying, get rid of Turner's corruption? Never paid anybody off. Never.
And in the news business, there were times when putting a little money on the table would get you some access that you wouldn't get otherwise. It's
very easy to slip into corruption. Very easy. But I resisted it all the way along, not one time.
AMANPOUR: What do you most want to be remembered for?
TURNER: The good things I've done.
AMANPOUR: What's your proudest achievement?
[13:25:00]
TURNER: My family first and outside my family, CNN.
AMANPOUR: And what advice would you have for any young person who came to say, Ted, you've done it all? What can you tell me?
TURNER: Clean energy.
AMANPOUR: Ted Turner, thank you very much.
TURNER: You're quite welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Christiane is back with us. And, Christiane, just watching that, I'm not sure if you're aware, but I actually have a monitor where I
could see you and your reaction throughout that interview. And I'm just curious. I would imagine so many emotions were going through your head.
What stood out to me were so many of the topics that he raised almost 11 years ago that are so relevant. Top of mind today, nuclear disarmament,
corruption in power, climate change. You could go on and on and on. How did you feel watching that?
AMANPOUR: Well, I was listening. I can't see it. And I didn't know you were coming back to me. So, I'm quite emotional. But I think it's OK,
because he was so great. And I laughed at some of the things he was saying, especially the letter I read to him from his father that he could still
quote. I think it's phenomenal what he talked about at the end, quoting Shakespeare, quoting Horatius at the Bridge, talking about honor, talking
about how he never had his honor blemished.
And it's something incredible, because we know how difficult it is to be a very honest capitalist, a very honest entrepreneur. We know how corruption
affects so much of the world we live in today. And I think it's really, really amazing to have heard him say that that was one of his proudest
accomplishments. I thought that what he told young people, and God, you know, if people had done it and really done the renewable energy, we
wouldn't be over a barrel in the Middle East like we are right now in the Straits of Hormuz.
You know, he was so visionary about everything. And I know we've said it over and again, but just listening to him, and that was 10 years ago, you
just thought, wow, he knows so much. He's seen so much. He's done so much. He's put his money literally where his mouth is. He has led people. He has
led on huge issues that are totally relevant and important to the world, and especially today.
And I will say that maybe people think that what we're doing is hagiography. Well, I'm proud to be hagiographizing Ted Turner, because I
don't know anybody who was a better boss, who you could admire unreservedly, and you could follow over the, well, not over the cliff, but
into the breach and beyond.
So, I just think it's really extraordinary to listen to him 10 years ago. And I know he thought that all his career. And I hope young people,
certainly young journalists, can get some inspiration, or young entrepreneurs, or just young people who believe in civics and society,
because he believed in community and he never lost his hope.
GOLODRYGA: A true renaissance man. I love how you've noted in an interview that he democratized information through a 24-hour news model that he
created himself. And like all of us, proving how mortal he is to remember. Remember some of the harsh words that our parents have said to us so many,
so many years ago, word for word. Christiane Amanpour, thank you so much. Thank you for this brilliant interview and a reflection on what an icon
this man was for the news industry, really for the world. Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: I think we all owe him a debt of gratitude. The world does, the news industry does, and certainly all of us at CNN do.
GOLODRYGA: Well said. Thank you, Christiane. And do stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
AMANPOUR: Thanks, Bianna.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Now, is this the beginning of the end for the war in the Middle East? A regional source has told CNN that the U.S. and Iran are closing in
on agreeing to a short memorandum aimed to end the war. It would trigger a 30-day negotiation period on the harder issues from uranium enrichment to
the Strait of Hormuz.
Meanwhile, Iran's top diplomat met his counterpart in China just days before President Trump's own meeting with Xi Jinping in Beijing. And at the
same time, the U.S. operation to guide commercial ships through the Strait of Hormuz, dubbed Project Freedom, is on pause, just some 48 hours after it
began. President Trump says it's due to diplomatic progress, though Iran claims the U.S. is backing down.
To discuss all of this, let's bring in Danny Citrinowicz for his analysis. He's a senior fellow at the Institute for National Security Studies and
former head of the Iran branch of Israeli military intelligence. He's well- placed to discuss all of this and is joining me now from Tel Aviv. Danny, welcome back to the program.
So, let's talk about this latest reporting that the U.S. and Iran are closing in on a 14-point MOU, trading sanctions relief somewhere between 12
to 15-year moratorium on nuclear enrichment for that sanctions relief and opening up the Strait. You wrote on X that if this deal is actually signed,
it would be a fitting end to a campaign that began as epic fury and is ending as epic disaster. Explain what you mean by that.
DANNY CITRINOWICZ, SENIOR FELLOW, INSTITUTE FOR NATIONAL SECURITY STUDIES AND FORMER HEAD OF IRAN BRANCH OF ISRAEL'S MILITARY INTELLIGENCE: Yes,
thank you very much for having me. I'll try to explain that. I'll try to really highlight what I meant with this tweet or in X.
Actually, we have to remember what was the purpose of this campaign. First and foremost, to topple the regime. This is why, for the first time in
history, Israel decapitated a leader of another country. Now, where we're standing right now is an agreement that if it will be signed, actually will
strengthen the same regime that you wanted to topple. There will be lifting of sanctions, so the regime will be emboldened. Nobody will discuss its
missile and its aids to the proxies, and it will get the right to enrich uranium.
So, the bottom line of things is the fact that I think that this campaign actually failed. Even more than that, I will say that, unfortunately, this
is the only viable solution to end this war, because without compromising with Iran, then escalation will be inevitable. And even if there will be an
escalation, Iran will capitulate. So, we're in a very problematic situation right now, whether to strengthen the regime by an agreement or returning
back to war. At the end of the day, it will lead us to a negotiation with the same starting point by the Iranians. This is where we are, and this is
why it's such a failure.
GOLODRYGA: The president just moments ago was saying that he thinks Iran wants a deal right now. He thinks they are speaking with the decision-
makers, the right decision-makers. We've heard this language from him as well, as he's also noted divisions within leadership now in Iran. So, can
Tehran actually deliver a consensus if this deal does move forward, or do you think they're perhaps just buying time?
CITRINOWICZ: Well, we were down that road before that President Trump discussed those issues. I have to say one thing extremely important I need
to highlight. The problem with Iran decision-making is not the friction within the leadership.
Since the dawn of the Republic of Iran, it had this kind of friction. The problem is, first and foremost, the position of the Iranians, meaning that
they don't need, in their eyes, to capitulate. And this is a problem that we have right now. In order to reach an agreement, the U.S. will have to
compromise with Iran, because Iran is not ready to show any compromise, and it's red line --
GOLODRYGA: Danny, I think we --
CITRINOWICZ: So, I think that we need to highlight again and again.
GOLODRYGA: Sorry, I can hear you now. We lost you for a second.
CITRINOWICZ: Yes. I think that we should highlight again and again this problem. The problem is not the friction within the regime itself, but the
position. At the end of the day, he's not ready to capitulate, and this is a problem that we are facing. And friction, where in the past, will be in
the future. This is decentralized regime controllability, but the main problem is the position that they are presenting in a negotiation. And this
will be very hard to change, even if the U.S. returns back to war.
GOLODRYGA: How much damage has the war and now weeks of a blockade imposed on Iran? Because we see the rial in free fall. Trade is down some 80
percent for the country.
[13:35:00]
The blockade is draining the regime of an estimated $400 million to $500 million every single day. There's no doubt there's infrastructure damage
that was caused by the 13,000 strikes that Iran absorbed over the course of that war, in addition to the economic damage that the country was already
in prior to the war, much less the position it's in right now. So, what is the current state internally for the country?
CITRINOWICZ: Definitely the regime has weakened from the blockade. This is one. The second thing, even more importantly, everything related to what
happened in the war itself, when the Israel and the U.S. combined together these attacks. So, definitely the regime was weakened. But this is not the
question. The question is whether the regime is willing to capitulate because of the damages that he absorbed. And the answer for that is no.
So, even if the blockade will work out, and we'll say, yes, Iran would find it very hard to stall the oil and export the oil, this is not the question.
The question is not whether the blockade has an impact. It has an impact. But it's not the main purpose of the blockade. The main purpose of the
blockade is to make sure that Iran will capitulate in the negotiation table. And that won't happen.
The Iranians, as we saw yesterday, will be willing to escalate, to attack even the UAE, rather than capitulate to the U.S. demand. This is the main
problem that we have right now. So, yes, they're weak. And they've gone weak since the beginning of the war. But at the end of the day, they're not
willing to capitulate. And this is the problem that we are facing.
GOLODRYGA: And you've also warned that Washington is struggling to present a credible threat. You mentioned the attacks, some 15 missiles at the UAE
over the last two days. And yet the United States responding almost in a muted fashion, and saying that even the attacks forget the UAE, but on U.S.
assets did not meet the threshold for breaking the ceasefire. How is that viewed within the regime?
CITRINOWICZ: Well, definitely, they think it's a success for them, the fact that President Trump stopped the campaign, or trying to -- or
Operation Freedom, trying to take the tankers out from the most trade. For them, it's a success. And it's connected to the fact that they use
violence. This is what they think.
But even worse than that, I think that what we're seeing is strategic improvisation by the administration itself. From a blockade to this kind of
operation, looking for a silver bullet that will change everything, it won't going to happen. The Iranian issue is too complex that you can find a
solution, a solvable solution to the problem. If the administration wants to reach an agreement with the Iranians, they will have to compromise.
If we return back to war, the damage will be significant in Iran and in the Gulf states, but Iran won't capitalize. This regime is willing to absorb,
willing to sacrifice its own greater good, its own population for survival. And that is why everything that President Trump will threat, or will even
use, won't change basically the situation that we have with this regime. This regime is no Venezuela. This regime is something that is unique that
the United States, I think, didn't occur in the past. This is something that we need to adjust.
And as I said at the beginning, at the end of the day, if the administration wants to reach an agreement with Iran, it cannot dictate the
conditions because from the Iranian standpoint, they have the upper hand.
GOLODRYGA: Danny Citrinowicz, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you once again for joining the program. We really appreciate it.
CITRINOWICZ: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, to a troubling feature of U.S. history, blackface, a dehumanizing caricature of black Americans, became a staple of
entertainment in the 19th century. Our next guest argues the impacts of this derogatory practice are still being felt. In her new book, Rhae Lynn
Barnes traces the toxic roots of blackface and how it seeped into so many parts of American life. She joins Michel Martin to discuss her 20 years of
research and why this conversation is still so important today. And just to note, parts of this interview may be disturbing to some viewers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Professor Rhae Lynn Barnes, thank you so much for joining us.
RHAE LYNN BARNES, AUTHOR, "DARKOLOGY": Thank you for having me.
MARTIN: How on earth did you get interested in the subject of blackface?
BARNES: Absolutely. So, for me, it was, had always been there. I grew up in Anaheim, California, right in the shadow of Disneyland, very much a
union working class family. And during the 1992 L.A. uprisings, which spilled into Long Beach and Orange County, Anaheim thought it would be a
great idea to bring the schoolchildren into Disneyland as a safe place. And we were incredibly racially diverse as a class.
And one of my sort of vivid memories of racial consciousness was being on Main Street USA with my best friend who was black. I was a little white
girl. And we were watching the classic "Steamboat Willie" and early Mickey Mouse cartoons. And in one of them, Mickey Mouse decides he wants to put on
a minstrel show. He wants to do a reinterpretation of Harriet Beecher Stowe's "Uncle Tom's Cabin," singing and dancing to Dixie. And he takes a
stick of dynamite, puts it in his mouth and blows his face up into blackface.
And we were just standing there as the city was sort of imploding. And I just remember thinking, oh, race is fake. This is made up. And from that
moment on, I couldn't unsee racial representation and blackface. But then once I got to college, I was in a history class. It was about American
slavery and culture.
And there's 30 books about blackface that had been written about antebellum America. So, before the American Civil War, and they all argued that either
at the end of the Civil War or by the turn of 1900, blackface declined, that it was subsumed into things like television and radio, but as a
standalone theatrical performance disappeared. And I thought, what are you talking about? I see it all the time at Disneyland and Asbury Farm and in
my daily life.
So, that really started the impetus to document how, in fact, it not only existed in the 20th century, but in the 19th century, there might be about
20,000 shows. In the 20th century, it's a million shows a year. And so, that really sparked my interest.
MARTIN: That's crazy. Well, that's just -- I mean, there are just so many things. I mean, just put that right there, the fact that the number of
shows actually increased. What explains that?
BARNES: Yes. And part of why I was so confused was the Jim Crow era, which starts in 1896 formally, which is an era of racial terror and legislative
white supremacy in the United States. Jim Crow is the name of the most famous blackface character who comes on the stage in the United States in
1828, globalizes in American culture by 1840.
And so, I thought, how could it end if the entire regime in American society is actually named after this character? So, one thing that I
discovered that was really critical to things is in the 19th century, we had professional blackface celebrities and they were truly global
celebrities. So, you would go to Broadway or the Bowery and you would see them perform, whether it was standup comedy, tap dancing, banjo fiddling.
But due to the incredible demand and also the explosion of multimedia technology, whether it was the invention of lithography, photography, sheet
music, it starts to democratize for amateur and home use. And they're basically publishing how to blackface guides.
And what's significant about that is, all of a sudden, the American public shifts from being passive consumers where they might see a show once a year
to all of a sudden being asked in places like schools or churches to learn how to physically embody their own representation of black stereotypes. And
that really changes your relationship to caricature.
And the other sort of second major thing that happens is during the Great Depression, President Roosevelt federalizes blackface. And what I mean by
that is through the Works Progress Administration, which is a brilliant program that put millions of Americans back to work, including writers,
artists, composers, set designers. He felt that blackface was the one true cultural form of American entertainment that he worried was being lost
during the economic collapse.
[13:45:00]
And so, he had the federal government go out and do what I call a blackface bailout, where he bought out all of the publishing houses, brought them
under the umbrella of the federal government, and that federalizes it. It puts all of this material into public domain. And that's how it ends up in
our school books.
MARTIN: He even wrote one. I learned from you, he even wrote a blackface. OK. Just -- I feel like my head's going to explode, but OK, let's just --
BARNES: Welcome to it.
MARTIN: How did the blackface thing all start?
BARNES: So, in 1828, a struggling actor at the time called T.D. Rice was in the Ohio River Valley, primarily in Kentucky, and he was backstage, and
he encountered an enslaved man who was disabled, and he heard him singing a song, and he was working with horses, you know, taking care of the actor's
horses, and he also was disabled, and so when he would sing this song, he would spin, and it was described that he would drag his back leg.
There are an enormous amount of enslaved Americans who are enslaved and their job is not working in the cottonfields. It might be that they're an
enslaved fiddler or enslaved singer. And so, a lot of world class musicians in New York, London, would go down to play in cities like New Orleans and
go down to Charleston where they could watch the slave markers. And they're basically watching performances that a form of torture, like, you know,
dance faster, jump higher in the auction block as people are being evaluated for their physicality for potential purchase.
But what these composers and performers do is they write down what they're hearing, which are primarily black folk music, and also trying to learn the
choreography. Bringing it back to Broadway, mass commercializing it and making enormous sums of money. And so, this is what happens with T.D. Rice
when he sees this performer. He brings it to the Bowery to the Five Points in the north.
So, this is critical to the story. Blackface is a northern urban invention. It is not created in the American South. And most performances in the 19th
century were what was called concert saloons. So, these were all male spaces. Women could only be there if they were sex workers or if they were
serving alcohol. And he performs this song called "Jumping Jim Crow" where he not only performs in blackface but also reinterprets disability.
And so, as he spins about in the choreography, he drags his back leg. And it was such a hit. The audience made him perform it over 50 times in a row.
And there's a really famous painting where the audience rushes the stage and are trying to learn the dance right beside him.
Within 10 years, we get the rise of what's called minstrel shows. So, these are all night blackface events that have normally three parts to them. So,
basically the birth of American variety shows. So, we see that form continue all the way up through SNL. And they have minstrel troops which
are pretty much like rock bands in that they have their specializations. They have different fan bases and they tour not just America, but the
entire globe.
And so, their songs written by composers like Stephen Foster not only become critical to American cultural DNA in the 1840s, '50s and 1860s but
pretty much the English-speaking world where the racial humor translates to what will become South Africa, Australia, throughout the British empire.
And my book also talks about how this takes hold in the Pacific because the United States brings it to Japan and the Japanese empire.
MARTIN: Everything in this book is a revelation to me but one of the other things is the fact that blackface was performed in the Japanese internment
camps where Japanese Americans, some sort of Japanese immigrants were herded into during World War II. And they became kind of a form of
entertainment in these camps. How -- why was it so popular in your view?
BARNES: Well, there's a lot going on. The most disturbing truth is they're funny. They're very witty. Normally they are derived in wordplay. And what
I always say to myself is, this would be funny if you removed the blackface, like the actual puns the actual wordplay going on.
[13:50:00]
But when you add the blackface, it's another layer because then part of the complex joke that's being made is that, unfortunately, that black Americans
are so inferior and so failing at assimilation, whether they are trying to engage with forms of technology like a telegraph or a radio, or if they're
trying to vote in a political primary that no matter what they're doing they're getting it slightly wrong.
And so, once these characters embed in American culture, we sort of have these stock caricatures that every American identifies with, knows and can
expect the tropes that they're going to engage in. I sort of described minstrel shows like a really strange hybrid of the daily show in that they
are constantly talking about American political news and making it a joke but then at the same time are mixed with something like a midnight viewing
of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" where the audience also knows certain lines and knows songs and are shouting it out as they come up throughout
the performance.
And so, there's a strange mix of both improvisation and familiarity. So, like, why did the chicken cross the road? That's a minstrel joke. The ice
cream truck song that we all know as a child that is Zip Coon's song, that is Jim Crow's foil. So, he's sort of the urban dandy. It's sort of amazing
--
MARTIN: The Coon song, that's crazy. So, you're saying the ice cream truck song is actually a minstrel song?
BARNES: Absolutely.
MARTIN: I've never seen so many of these pictures that are in your book. Why is that?
BARNES: So, sort of two things that happened. One is a very successful legacy of the civil rights movement that in the 1940s, the 1960s black
women, especially black mothers in the great migration and also students on college campuses were so horrified when they were integrating suburbia, K
through 12 schools and other forms of daily life that they had been excluded from to learn how, you know, pervasive blackface was.
And they recognized that if you want to fight something like lynching or mass political disenfranchisement, then you have to attack these
caricatures which allows Americans to psychologically feel that this exclusion is completely justified but also merited.
And so, part of what happens is the pendulum swings so far that the evidence of these shows becomes considered taboo and they're mass censored.
And so, one story that I tell in the introduction is I go to the library of Congress in 2012 and I know the titles I'm looking for these how-to plays I
have figured out through the publisher rosters what they are but I want to go read what's actually in these plays that children throughout America
were being asked to perform each year. And each item kept coming up missing on shelf, missing on shelf.
And when this happened about the 100th time I pretty much demanded to talk to somebody and I was kind of politely interrogated about what are you
doing? Why do you want to see these? What's your goals here? And so, I had a very honest conversation with the curators and a librarian disappeared
and about an hour later she brought back basically wagons full of this material and admitted that in 1987 she had hit it in sort of the bowels of
the library of Congress because with the invention of things like Xerox machines the Klan in Virginia was going in and trying to mass reproduce and
reanimate the blackface craze that the civil rights workers had effectively shut down.
And so, while we still do see these tentacles in things like Halloween costumes the civil rights workers were completely successful in shutting
down what was a multi-million-dollar industry and annual American tradition and getting it out of the federal government and schools. And so, they --
it's actually one of their most successful civil rights campaigns that they ever had.
MARTIN: And to those people who say this is just picking at sores we don't need more division. This is best buried. Just leave it in the past. We
don't need to talk about this now because all it does is reawaken ill feeling at a time when we don't need that. What would you say to that?
BARNES: What I've found as I've traveled the country with this book coming out is so many Americans coming up to me and saying, I experienced this as
a child or my grandfather did this all the time annually and I have never had a place where I could talk about it. And so, what I'm finding is after
my book talks Americans are sticking around afterwards and they're having interracial conversations with each other about what did this mean? Why did
I have to do this as a five-year-old in Jim Crow America? Why did my mother have to pull me out of the class and protest this?
And so, I think if we could open more spaces in America I know for example, in Germany and Rwanda they're very intentionally trying to create spaces
where the sort of nasty elements of their history are being openly reckoned with and talked about and not in the sort of cancel culture sort of way but
much like blackface to say this impacted all of us even if you don't initially realize it, it did. So, what do we do with that?
[13:55:00]
And I think Americans are completely ready to have that conversation despite what powers may be, say otherwise.
MARTIN: Professor Rhae Lynn Barnes, thank you so much for talking with us.
BARNES: Thank you so much. It was an honor.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you
can always catch us online on our website and all over social media. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
