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Amanpour
Interview with Kyiv School of Economics President and Former Ukrainian Economic Development Minister Tymofiy Mylovanov; Interview with Former NSC Senior Director for the Western Hemisphere Juan Gonzalez; Interview with "W.E.B. Du Bois: Rebel with a Cause" Director Rita Coburn. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired May 18, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): A Russian drone above. The Ukrainians open fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: An escalating war in disguise as Kyiv deploys its largest attack on Moscow in a year. Is Ukraine turning the tables on the
battlefield? We have a report from the front lines.
Plus, analysis from a former Ukrainian official.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: It's a failed nation. It's a totally failed nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- Cuba under pressure. With the nation preparing to defend itself from potential U.S. military intervention, I asked former White
House official Juan Gonzalez about the ongoing tensions.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDDIE GLAUDE JR., PHD: He's one of the most educated men in the country, not black men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- W.E.B. Du Bois, rebel with a cause. A new documentary on the life and legacy of a civil rights pioneer. Director Rita Coburn speaks to
Michel Martin.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Lethal records are being set almost daily in Ukraine's war with Russia. At least three people were killed near Moscow over the weekend after Ukraine
launched more than 500 drones. The attack was the largest in over a year, according to Russia's state news agency. It follows a huge wave of Russian
strikes on Kyiv late last week, the biggest prolonged drone attack since the war began. At least 25 people were killed there.
Even as the air war expands, the tide on the ground may be turning. Last month, Ukraine managed to liberate more land than Russia seized, the first
time Moscow suffered a net loss of territory since 2024. In his nightly address, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has warned Russia to expect more
attacks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Today, the activity indicators show that our proactive operations per day are higher
than those of the Russians. And this is a very serious result. We will increase all forms of supply for our army, drones, ground robots, shells,
all resources to maintain proper protection and our active frontline operations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: On the political front, Zelenskyy is playing defense. Ukrainian authorities named Andriy Yermak, his powerful ex-chief of staff, as a
suspect in a major corruption probe. We'll have more on that in just a moment. But first, correspondent Nick Paton Walsh gets a firsthand,
harrowing look at the new warfare reporting from eastern Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): They call this the road of life, but it's about survival, not living. It is safest on foot, under skies ruled by tiny killer drones
targeting any vehicle, the nets trying to block the horror from above. If you can, make the robot your friend, your porter, though machines are
normally the enemy here.
WALSH: This now, pretty much all over the front lines, tiny bits of fiber optic cable used to connect drones to their controller can go on for tens
of kilometers, stopping the jamming before --
WALSH (voice-over): A Russian drone above. The Ukrainians open fire.
WALSH: Follow him.
WALSH (voice-over): They hit it.
WALSH: That's the impact. And you have to split out, because the drone will try and target groups of individuals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): One, two, or three.
WALSH: Sometimes one, two, three, you find.
[13:05:00]
WALSH (voice-over): We're doing Sasha (ph) and Bogdan's (ph) usual walk along this road between two Ukrainian positions, but it takes five hours,
and we are buzzed by attack drones 14 times.
The threats change every month. Here, looking for loitering drones, they hover low and wait for you.
A radio warning. The trees aren't just a place to hide, but somewhere the drones cannot fly. Russian drones circle, targeting vehicles, but also
dropping explosives on troops. You have to keep moving, though they may swarm around you.
WALSH: The battlefield has completely changed in a matter of a year. Nobody drives cars on this road, unless you have to. Nobody drives in
tanks. That's outgoing artillery. These robots used for resupply, up ahead we can see people repairing the nets, a kind of key protection. But these
used to resupply food, ammunition, all around the front line.
WALSH (voice-over): Gunfire means run, again.
WALSH: This is a pretty constant, and the only move is to hide into the trees. There it lands, not far.
WALSH (voice-over): You might be thinking, why not walk inside the nets?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): To maneuver if there is a drone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Their speed is high. You need to get away, and not group up.
WALSH: This is part of the problem here, in that after an hour of this, you don't quite get numb to it, but let's see something here, you get
slightly too comfortable and tired.
WALSH (voice-over): The next one is right on top of us.
WALSH: There it is. There it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Is it ours?
WALSH (voice-over): They hit it. That grey streak. And it falls. Whirling down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What a good hit.
WALSH (voice-over): But it hasn't detonated. Debris drifts. There's been no blast, so we are alive. It may have been a recon drone, but flew like a
Russian attacker.
Down the road is the Kostyantynivka front, where the Kremlin's advance has been slowed to a crawl, at the enormous cost, across the front, of 35,000
Russian dead and wounded a month, says Ukraine. This is the tenth attack.
WALSH: They caught sight of it briefly, and it appears to be coming closer now. Actually, intense fire. You can hear it. See it up.
WALSH (voice-over): Drones also target heavy gunfire. Their friend, a lieutenant, killed when this car was hit just two days ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Roman, this is where it happened. Rest in peace.
WALSH (voice-over): We are nearing their bunker position. There are moments here to rest, see the trophies of drones that failed, but we have
to get back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Did you expect there to be so many robots and drones?
AFINA, 24TH MECHANIZED BRIGADE (through translator): No, to be honest, I didn't. I actually joined the army before the full-scale war and didn't
expect anything like this at all. It's a big tough at the moment. Over time, you get a bit bummed out by all of this. You realize you have to do
it.
WALSH (voice-over): As soon as we emerge, they are above us again. This is the new warfare, hide. Shoot at the sky. Run. Fire drones back. The
impact's just as deadly as shelling. The accuracy, horrific.
[13:10:00]
WALSH: Have to walk in, but also walk out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Monakh, Monakh, it is above the trees.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Plus, plus. Heat it.
WALSH (voice-over): The buzz stays with you, ringing in your ears for hours later. No respite.
The grey smoke, perhaps it hit the net.
WALSH: That was close, loud. You could hear the shrapnel landing on the tarmac, clearly targeting that armored vehicle.
WALSH (voice-over): It is hard to see how this grind is a win, but it is. Ukraine on foot, robots in support, automation replacing scarce troops,
holding ground.
The drones never stop, but neither does Ukraine, adapting, learning, engineering this new warfare, and hoping any edge sustains long enough to
put Russia in reverse.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Druzhkivka, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Fascinating look at modern-day warfare. Thanks to Nick for that report. Well, now for a closer look at the latest military and political
developments. Tymofiy Mylovanov was Volodymyr Zelenskyy's Minister for Economic Development, and he joins us now live.
Tymofiy, it's good to see you again. Let's go back to the drone attacks that we saw over the weekend targeting the Moscow region, specifically
refineries, airports. Russia is saying over 500 drones were intercepted, and yet it's clear some made it through. How significantly, in your
opinion, does bringing the war directly to Russia's capital impact Vladimir Putin's thinking about where this war goes next?
TYMOFIY MYLOVANOV, PRESIDENT, KYIV SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS AND FORMER UKRAINIAN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT MINISTER: I think Russia is the mafia state, or at
least the ideology is there, and with mafia, you have to bring the fight home to them, otherwise they can keep sending troops. And in Russia, Moscow
is different from Russia. They keep sending troops, infantry, to die, basically, from other regions, and as long as Moscow is safe, the war can
continue. So, I think it's fundamentally important to bring the war to Moscow.
GOLODRYGA: And so, what does this mean? How does Putin's calculus change from Kyiv's perspective if we see more long-range attacks like this,
specifically in Russia's capital?
MYLOVANOV: My expectation, I might be wrong, but my expectation that it will expedite negotiations and some form of the end of the hostilities.
That's the most effective way to bring the war to an end, and I've been actually on record about this since the beginning of the full-scale
invasion.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, I think you've mentioned as much here in interviews with us as well. So, the question, I guess, is not the lethality of Ukraine's
reach, but how sustainable it is in terms of scaling this to become a constant for Russia, the same way that it tragically is a constant for
Ukrainians, especially those in Kyiv.
MYLOVANOV: So, it is scalable, the tech is there, and Ukraine has reached the capabilities. It's hard to believe, but only a year and a half ago,
maybe about two years, that was the first time Ukraine deployed deep strikes, the first drone. So, Ukraine has developed its tech.
I think what it does, it leads to a stalemate, you know, sort of no movement in the air defense, air fight. They attack us, we attack them. We
intercept 95 percent, they intercept 95 percent. We can go on forever. What's the point?
GOLODRYGA: And yet, it is something that Volodymyr Zelenskyy says that the country is still in desperate need of, and that is Western interceptors.
So, when you say this back and forth, without a greater number of Western interceptors, how long can Ukraine sustain this? Because I would imagine
you will likely be seeing more strikes now from Russia.
MYLOVANOV: Well, absolutely. I think the weak spot in all of this discussion is ballistic missiles. We do not have any reasonable way, at
least at this point, to intercept them. And they do real damage. They kill people and they destroy critical infrastructure and whatever Russia chooses
to do. I mean, some of them miraculously get intercepted, but that's a problem. And the U.S. tech, the Western tech, is important for that.
GOLODRYGA: And so, how likely is it, from Kyiv's perspective, that the United States will continue to provide these interceptors? We haven't heard
President Trump say as much.
[13:15:00]
I mean, it was only last year where there seemed to be an agreement where weapons would be sold to Europe, and then Europe would provide the needed
weapons for Ukraine. That seems to have been backtracked, if for no other reason now, than the war in Iran, which has required a great deal of U.S.
resources.
MYLOVANOV: You're absolutely correct. In fact, you know, OK, so they are still being provided, but the situation in the Middle East, in Iran, has
increased demand for interceptors, and now also in the states around the Gulf. So, that is a pressure point on Ukraine, and it is a substantive,
it's a meaningful pressure point.
GOLODRYGA: Russia fired more than 1,400 drones and missiles at Ukraine's power grid over the winter, and it is fascinating that Kyiv was able to
restore electricity and enter the spring now with renewed optimism, both on the battlefield and with restoring its electrical grid.
Can Ukraine, though, realistically secure that grid, because it has been hundreds of millions of dollars in restoration that it's required, as we
then approach what will sadly be a continuation of the war, perhaps now into its sixth year in winter?
MYLOVANOV: Unfortunately, I fear the same. I think, however, the grid or the approach to the electricity resilience has been changed. It's now a
decentralized grid of a lot of different smaller power generation capabilities. So, that's what keeps Ukraine going, and that's actually much
cheaper, because rebuilding the old Soviet technology of huge power plants makes no sense.
So, I think -- but Russia will continue to attack, and we're preparing for the winter, so the next winter will be very tough. You're correct. But
right now, Ukraine is full of optimism. It withstood the attacks over the winter. It's warm. You know, it's green. People are happy. And the front
line appears to be moving in our favor.
GOLODRYGA: You recently highlighted something that stood out to me, and that is that Ukraine's drone and military technology sector is booming
because soldiers, in part, are using their hazard pay to buy directly from startups and bypassing the clunky state procurement process. Can you just
explain what that means and what that's resulted in thus far?
MYLOVANOV: So, that means that the connection between the consumer, which is military in this case, a specific unit, and the producer, which could be
a startup somewhere with a new tech, a new technology and innovation, is really, really short. It's just one call away, and that's legal. You can be
a military unit and directly buy, purchase directly from a private company, which exists for two weeks.
Now, that generates some risks, and I think it wouldn't be possible in the existing legacy systems in, let's say, NATO or in many other countries, but
I think it's an innovation in procurement which keeps Ukraine running and provides a fantastic market and funding for the booming defense tech
industry in Ukraine. I think it's one of the -- not the only one, but it's one of the innovations which keeps Ukraine going.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, a number of steps ahead, perhaps, in modern-day warfare, as drones have proven to be for Ukrainians, and obviously the world is
closely watching. Let me turn to the political shockwaves internally in Kyiv right now, because President Zelenskyy's former right-hand man and
chief of staff, Andriy Yermak, is currently facing -- he's behind bars facing multiple corruption and money laundering charges. We haven't heard
much from President Zelenskyy on this. I would imagine trying to hold up the independence of the criminal justice system there.
But given the proximity and the closeness of these two men for years prior to their political careers, how much weight is on President Zelenskyy's
shoulders now as more and more is being exposed?
MYLOVANOV: I think there are three points, really, to understand this. First, it is true that there is a lot of pressure on President Zelenskyy.
It is true that Zelenskyy is distancing himself, and it is also true that the anti-corruption and investigation and prosecution officers said
explicitly that President Zelenskyy is not a part of investigation and he's not on the recordings, on the tapes or anything like that. So, that's
number one.
Number two is that there is a very vibrant opposition right now in Ukraine, which is trying to use this momentum to bring forward some kind of
pressure. Some people hope for elections. In fact, some people are opposing it. So, it's a very vivid, livid debate in Ukraine about what to do. And
it's sad and exciting at once because it shows, you know, no one can claim that there is no democracy in Ukraine.
[13:20:00]
And the third point is, I think, is that it proves that the Ukrainian justice system is in fact independent. I'm not saying it's a walk in a park
or it's pretty, this process, no, but it is impossible to imagine in many even developed countries that you would have a reasonable, meaningful
persecution of a recently top two person.
You know, I'm not qualified to judge on the substance of the case and I don't want to accuse anyone or even presume. I'm just merrily describing
the situation, but it's really a proof that Ukraine is democracy and that the institutions are working.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. You can't overstate the power that Yermak wielded in that country for years now. And to see him behind bars is really quite stunning.
Now, let me ask you a broader question. It's more of a hindsight question, but nonetheless, I think it is relevant.
If the United States under President Biden and President Trump had permitted these deep range attacks by Ukraine into Russia, into Moscow
years ago, rather than just pressuring Ukraine to focus on defensive weapons and responses, do you think the front line could look radically
different today?
MYLOVANOV: Yes, absolutely. And again, I spoke about this on record multiple times. I think we had this opportunity in the fall of 2022 when
the Russian army collapsed. And that was the time where we could have pushed Russians back to the border. And that would be it. I think that
would have saved lives, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of lives, and the war would have been over.
But at the time, the administration of the United States stopped and encouraged or actually put pressure on Ukraine not to push hard on Russia
because they were afraid. I'm hearing, you know, so I can't prove it. But there were concerns of escalation, the collapse of Russia, nuclear power
state, who will get the nukes, and all kinds of legitimate constraints and concerns. But you see where it got us today, you know.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, thousands of lives lost on the one hand, but an innovative industrial domestic defense base, specifically around drone technology. One
has to wonder if it would be where it was now, had it not been from the United States preventing Ukraine from these types of strikes back then.
Tymofiy Mylovanov, always good to see you. Thank you so much for the time.
And do stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Now, Washington's ongoing pressure campaign is making life in Cuba unbearable. Oil reserves that run the island's beleaguered electrical
grid are all but spent with months of scorching summer heat ahead. The U.S. is also ramping up its pressure on Cuba's government preparing an
indictment against 94-year-old former President Raul Castro.
CIA Director John Ratcliffe led a delegation to meet with the Cuban government on Thursday, a highly unusual visit from the head of an agency
that's tried repeatedly to sabotage the Castro revolution.
Havana officials stress that Cuba does not constitute a threat to the national security of the U.S., but President Miguel Diaz-Canel warned
Monday that a U.S. military assault on Cuba would cause, quote, "a blood bath with incalculable consequences."
My next guest keeps a close eye on Cuba and the region. Juan Gonzalez served as the National Security Council Senior Director for the Western
Hemisphere under President Biden. He recently returned from Venezuela. Juan, it's good to see you.
And let's start there. You just returned from Venezuela. We know that Cuba has heavily relied on Venezuelan oil for years now. Maduro's gone.
Washington is attempting to normalize relations with Caracas. How much of that sudden loss of energy supply has accelerated the economic collapse
that we're seeing in Cuba?
JUAN GONZALEZ, FORMER NSC SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE: Well, it's significant. Cuba is experiencing the worst crisis in its modern
history without the Soviet Union or Venezuela to be able to come to its rescue. And right now, U.S. policy is accelerating that collapse without,
frankly, a plan for what comes next.
The damage to the tourism sector, that damage has been done. That tourism industry is not going to return if the embargo is lifted. And right now,
there's also a -- beyond the oil embargo, the oil blockade, there's been this impact on confidence. So, even if sanctions are lifted tomorrow,
investors aren't going to go into the country because there's really a lot of unpredictability on the part of the United States.
So, I think there's been lasting damage that has been done to the Cuban economy. And the question really is not really -- it's not really whether
the Cuban system is failing. The question is whether U.S. policy is designed to produce a transition or whether it'll produce a catastrophe.
GOLODRYGA: And it's the latter that the U.S. says that they are seeking to avoid here. The Cuban government has recently accepted $100 million in aid
as a humanitarian situation does become unbearable. Let's listen to some of those residents on the ground describing what daily life is like for them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The children don't have food to eat and aren't going to school. We're desperate. The women, we've already
lost 20 pounds and we are anxious because we don't have a way of supporting our kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We are demanding the right to have electricity. We have gone more than 40 hours without electricity. I live in
a community where there are many elderly people, many of them bedridden. There are many children. Food is going bad inside the refrigerators, the
little food that can be obtained.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: What does that $100 million provide for the island nation now, Juan?
GONZALEZ: Well, it's not going to be enough. I think right now it'll be basic subsistence. Ideally, as the U.S. government and Marco Rubio's
insisted, it's going to be distributed by others beside the government. But right now, you know, people are having to do without food.
And I think there is this danger that if, you know, also beyond the humanitarian assistance, if you have the electricity grid collapsing, the
migration crisis is going to land directly on South Florida. The optics are going to be devastating. I think there's this question about whether
Secretary Gates -- former Secretary Gates, gave an interview saying that mass migration could be a challenge.
I think we also got to recognize that those Cubans that have enough money to leave have left. The rest really have limited options. And so, the Cuban
government really has to care about the humanitarian situation inside the country much more than South Florida does, because there is a breaking
point at some point.
And, you know, I think the regime will have to deal with the population that's there. And that's leverage for the United States, if it's smart
enough to use it. But I mean, the question is, the humanitarian situation right now is dire. And any sort of outcome or solution really has to be
centered on the well-being of the Cuban people at this point.
GOLODRYGA: You mentioned leverage for the U.S. to extract concessions, perhaps from Havana. The U.S. has said that it wants Havana to open up its
economy and cut ties with Russia, China, Iran. Do you expect to see Cuba do that?
GONZALEZ: Well, I'd say two points. The administration is really treating Cuba as Venezuela 2.0, and it isn't. You know, Jorge Mas Santos, who is the
head of the Cuban American National Foundation, wrote an article where he said publicly that Venezuelan playbook won't work in Cuba. And I think when
he says that, Washington, frankly, should listen. You know, Venezuela you have, where I was just there, has factional issues to exploit. Cuba
doesn't.
You know, after seven decades of single-party rule inside of Cuba, the state, the party, the military are all fused. So, there's no organized
internal alternative. There's no Delcy Rodriguez inside of Cuba. And I think maximum pressure without a political strategy is not going to produce
a transition or produce a collapse.
Now, where a potential deal looks like, I think there's an area here where Donald Trump can declare victory and the Cubans can feel like they haven't
capitulated. It includes, I think, suspending Title II -- Title III and IV of the Helms-Burton Act for specific sectors. I think in exchange, the
Cubans would privilege U.S. investment, release political prisoners, maybe let the Cubans hire freely and set up businesses without going through the
state, and force the state-owned enterprises to compete.
[13:30:00]
And I think that's not a gift to the Cuban regime. That's a structural reform that, with some American fingerprints on it, that could lead to a
declaration of victory. But now you're seeing some of this rhetoric on trying to achieve some sort of a regime change inside of Cuba. What does
that mean?
Because I think, again, the Cuban regime, I think, has more similarities with Iran in that you have an institutionalized Cuban Communist Party than
it does with Venezuela, which, again, was really about opportunists, graft, and factional relationships.
GOLODRYGA: Well, to that point, and the message, clearly, that CIA Director Ratcliffe's very public visit to Havana was meant to send was a
warning against hostile actions. And in comparing the situation there more to what we're seeing unfold in Iran versus Venezuela, you've argued that
external pressure only strengthens the regime's siege narrative. I'm just curious how, given the massive humanitarian crisis on the ground in Cuba
right now. What would drive Cubans to rally around the flag at this point?
GONZALEZ: I think it is -- you know, when you talk to Cubans, and I talk to a lot of Cuban Americans that have contacts on the island, yes, they
want change. They're sick of the Cuban regime, but they are not going to, I think, necessarily embrace a U.S.-imposed transition.
I think, particularly when you look at Venezuela, when it looks like the U.S. private sector is taking over the entire Venezuelan economy, I think
it'll be much more challenging in this regard. I also got to give context on the CIA visit. Ratcliffe, I think, often the CIA is the best messenger
because the Ministry of Interior is much more plugged in, has a lot more influence often than the foreign ministry. And certainly, we have very
important interests that need to be conveyed, particularly, I think, the messages that Ratcliffe conveyed on the presence of Russia and China are
incredibly important.
But I think we need to recognize that the Cubans have crossed the Rubicon when it comes to cooperation on intelligence and defense with Russia and
with China because of pressure for the United States. I think the Cubans would much more want to actually engage with the U.S. on economic and
political cooperation.
And I think -- so, again, I think there's a deal there. The question is, I think when it comes to Marco Rubio, my personal view is he's trying to find
a balance between the pressure he's getting in South Florida and what I think Donald Trump would ultimately see as a political win. And I think
what I've laid out, I think those would be the contours of potential agreement. But again, it has to be something where the Cubans don't feel
like they're capitulating.
And that's something often, as somebody who's negotiated with the Cubans, they will cut off their nose to spite their face if they feel like they're
being pressured into a decision.
GOLODRYGA: Well, you mentioned Secretary of State Rubio. Obviously, we know that his personal connection to the island, his parents coming to the
U.S. as political refugees from Cuba. You yourself say that Cuba shouldn't just be a sanctions file, and there's been this carrot and stick approach
from the U.S. government now for decades. But for the first time, we are really seeing public calls for regime change, specifically from Marco
Rubio. Let's play sound from him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's a broken, non-functional economy, and it's impossible to change it. I wish it were different, but I
believe, it's my personal opinion, you cannot change the economic trajectory of Cuba as long as the people who are in charge of it now are in
charge of it. That's what's going to have to change because these people are proven incapable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, what do those comments say to you?
GONZALEZ: I agree with them entirely. And I think it's important to step back and recognize that the U.S. policy toward Cuba has been shaped by the
political calculus in South Florida, not by a theory of change. The embargoes and effectiveness has been acknowledged for decades, but like the
domestic cost of changing course has always exceeded the foreign policy cost of continuing. I think that's true of both parties. It's not which
party gets it right, which gets it wrong, it's that really we need to focus on a national security approach.
Nothing that Secretary Rubio has said is wrong. The question is, how do you get there? And so, is the United States going to -- you know, if they're
going to indict Raul Castro, are they going to engage an extraction operation to take out a 94-year-old man? You know, I think that will be
celebrated in South Florida, but is it going to lead to an orderly transition?
I think some of us that have been following Cuba for a long time worry about the -- that Cuba today is more like Haiti in that there's been a
brain drain, the security situation in the country has deteriorated, the sanction impact has been -- the impact of sanctions has been lasting. And
so, it's not going to be -- again, it's not a Venezuela where there's an economy that can rev up institutionally. It's going to be much more
difficult.
And I think the question is, is the U.S. willing to actually have more permanent presence inside of Venezuela -- or inside of Cuba? Is there a
situation where there's a -- you know, there's enough pressure where the regime cracks and maybe you'll have the U.S. dealing with some sort of
combination of actors to try to rule the country? Perhaps, but they're not going to do anything that is going to negotiate against their own survival.
[13:35:00]
They're going to want to try to keep as Raul Castro's grandson has said, is capitalism with sovereignty, which to me, that means maintaining the
presence and the role of the Cuban Communist Party with some changes. Maybe Diaz-Canel gets pulled out, but you're not going to actually get them to
negotiate their own ends, basically.
GOLODRYGA: You mentioned the potential indictment. As soon as Wednesday, the Justice Department is expected to unseal an indictment against 94-year-
old Raul Castro for ordering the 1996 shootdown of two civilian planes that were flown by a Miami-based humanitarians group that killed four people. I
guess the question is what would be the strategic value of arresting and capturing a 94-year-old man, but yet there is justice that has still been
denied. So, that is one argument to make.
But if I could go back to your point about Cuba's ties with Russia in particular, Axios is reporting that Cuba has stockpiled over 300 attack
drones from Russia and Iran with internal chatter, perhaps targeting even Guantanamo Bay or Key West. How much credence do you give to this reporting
right now? How alarmed should the U.S. be if, in fact, that is the case?
GONZALEZ: Yes. I mean, that report also referred to this intelligence actually going back as far back as 2023. Look, I'll tell you, as somebody
who was an active consumer of intelligence, I can tell you that's not the case. You know, it may have been something that was not credible, but, you
know, as somebody who absorbed this information regularly, I can tell you there was never any reporting.
GOLODRYGA: What's not -- I'm sorry. What's not the case?
GONZALEZ: That there was talk of acquiring drones as far back as 2023, that's not an accurate, I think, report. But does Cuba have 300 drones?
Maybe. Maybe they do. But you got to remember, these guys are so starved for fuel that their naval patrols are basically running. And 300 drones are
nothing. But I don't -- I think there's any credibility to the suggestion that the Cubans would unilaterally or proactively do that to attack Gitmo.
Defensively, perhaps, but would that actually achieve anything with regard to the United States? 300 drones is nothing. But I don't -- I think it's
not credible to suggest that the Cubans are actually trying to do this. I think the real story here is that this administration is trying to lay the
predicate to an extraction, which is like Raul Castro, I think -- not me, and apologies for the regime, it is a cruel regime that is guilty of human
rights abuses, it tortures people. The question here is, you know, you're not going to actually blockade a country into democracy. You can blockade
it into chaos.
And I think maximum pressure and even military action without political strategy is really just maximizing the suffering in the country. I think
the risk isn't that pressure fails. The risk is that pressure succeeds, and there's really nothing to catch the fall. I think this administration has
shown way too much improvisation in foreign policy, and that Cuba, I think, is no different.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, that was some of the concern expressed, I think, when you referenced Secretary Gates' interview over the weekend. Juan Gonzalez,
thank you for the time. Really appreciate it.
GONZALEZ: Thank you for having me.
GOLODRYGA: We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Well, next, we turn to the remarkable life of civil rights pioneer W.E.B. Du Bois, a scholar, journalist, and activist, famously the
first black man to get a Ph.D. from Harvard in 1895. He's now the subject of a new documentary, "W.E.B. Du Bois: Rebel with a Cause." Here's a
snippet from the trailer.
[13:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I very early got the idea --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- that I was going to prove to the world that Negroes --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- were just like other people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Michel Martin sits down with the film's award-winning director Rita Coburn. They discuss Du Bois' groundbreaking work and his legacy
today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Rita Coburn, thank you so much for talking with us.
RITA COBURN, DIRECTOR, "W.E.B. DU BOIS: REBEL WITH A CAUSE": Thank you for having me. This is an honor, and it's an honor to talk about W.E.B. Du
Bois.
MARTIN: Well, such a seminal figure of political activism, of the academy, of sociology, of so many disciplines, as a patron of the arts. So, just
give us the short version. He was born in this small town in western Massachusetts in 1868 after the Emancipation Proclamation, which ended
slavery for what, like 3.5 million, you know, black men and women?
COBURN: Absolutely. I think being --
MARTIN: But his family was never enslaved. So, tell me that story. How did he end up there, and what were they doing there, and what was his early
life?
COBURN: He was born in 1868, so that's three years after the Emancipation Proclamation. However, because he was in Great Barrington, Massachusetts,
there had not been enslavement for several generations there. So, his family was solidly placed there. And as a result of that, not to say that
there wasn't any racism, but whites and blacks had been living with one another for at least a century by that time.
What he did was he was such a student that his mother, in particular, sewed into him that that was the hope. The hope was education. So, Du Bois had a
prep school education, and education was far more classical in that time period, and pretty much based on European education at the time. And what
they found was, as much as they poured in, he was able to receive. And so, I think his intellect and the fact that he was not in the Jim Crow South
gave him that expanse. He became the valedictorian of his class. He just was exceptional.
MARTIN: He goes to Fisk for his undergraduate education. He then eventually does get to Harvard for his graduate studies. They make him,
what, start over again? He's at the top of his class at Fisk because, what, they decided that, you know, a black school wasn't, you know, at the same
level. So, how does he do at Harvard?
COBURN: So, you're exactly right. He goes to Fisk, and he loves Fisk. He finds himself as a person there, as a black person. He's with other people
that are like himself, and he hasn't been in a group of educated blacks before. He also becomes very entrenched in the spirituals from the Fisk
Jubilee Singers. He feels something about and coins it the sorrow songs, and he really comes to his own at Fisk.
He wants still to go to Harvard, and by the time he's able to get the money and to get to Harvard, he is in undergrad, and he likes Harvard. He loves
the Massachusetts social group of blacks that he's met, but he doesn't really feel that much a part of them academically. It's still a very racist
place for him.
So, he is able to petition to go to Berlin, which is where sociology is really starting to begin. And as he gets there, he's able to find what he
wants to do from a scientific perspective. And once he does that, unfortunately, he's not able to graduate there because his residency was
for two years, and it would be three years for him to get his Ph.D. there. So, he comes back to Harvard, and that's where he gets his Ph.D.
MARTIN: But he's the first -- do I have this right? Is he the first African American to get a Ph.D. from Harvard?
COBURN: He is the first African American to get a Ph.D. from Harvard.
MARTIN: He then took those techniques to Philadelphia, his first kind of job, I guess, after he finished his studies, where he was hired to do a
study of the black population of Philadelphia. So, would you just describe a little bit about why that was such a unique analysis at the time?
[13:45:00]
COBURN: Well, the Philadelphia Negro is cited as the first empirical study in sociology of a class and a group. And so, he goes to the Seventh Ward,
and he decides he's going to live in the Seventh Ward. So, he and Nina Gomer, who he's married, his first job was actually at Wilbur Forest, but
although he was doing math and science, he wanted to do sociology. So, when this study comes up, he goes.
He's not given a professorship. He's just there to do the research and to do this study. And basically, what Philadelphia is saying is that we're a
border city, pretty much. We're getting so many black people here, and these people are basically ruining our economy. They're living in slum
conditions. It must be something wrong with them. There's something wrong with these people. And he does the study and turns that on its head and
says it's not them. It's the way that they're being treated in the society.
If they have to walk these many miles to go to school, they're not going to be able to go to school. If black women can't get jobs, then they're not
going to be able to help their families. So, what you have is a system that is fighting against people as opposed to people that are fighting you. They
are doing the best that they can. If they have to live in cramped housing, they're going to come out in the summer and hang out on the street. If they
can't make money, they're going to do things that they wouldn't normally do if they had a fair chance.
And he does that all with data charts and graphs. And at this point, he's still bent on the science of the matter, that if I can show you
scientifically what is wrong, you as a society, you as a community will accept us. And that doesn't happen.
MARTIN: He moves from Philadelphia to Atlanta to become a professor at a university there. This is a seminal moment. He quickly gets a reality check
about what it's like to be a black man in the South. Will you tell us what it was?
COBURN: You know, when Du Bois goes into the Deep South and goes into Atlanta, he's at Atlanta University, and that campus kind of sits on a hill
away from some of the racism in the town, but it's also an integrated university. Most of these universities at the time had a lot of whites that
had gone to Dartmouth and Princeton, and they were teaching there, and they were teaching alongside blacks.
And so, he is in Atlanta, and at the same time, he doesn't understand how bad the South really is until, in 1899, Sam Hose is murdered, lynched, in a
brutal way. And this is his first reckoning with lynching. That's not something that he's seen. That's not something he's been a part of. And the
horror of that moment, they burn Sam Hose's body. They cut off his fingers and genitals. It's a horrific moment for him, and it speaks to something
that is happening in this country at that time.
And he's so appalled by it. He's thinking, I'm going to take a letter to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and en route, he's told that Sam Hose's
fingers and toes are in the window of the meat market. And at that point, he turns around, and he decides scientific research is not going to work. I
must now tell people what black people are suffering. And he decides that what he's really going to do is become a journalist. That's what he decides
he's going to do. He is going to eventually be a person who's the editor of the Crisis magazine. He is going to begin to do studies, and he is going to
write.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The title was extremely important. "The Crisis of the Color Line" was the crisis of America.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not only is he going to become a social activist, but he understands the power of the press.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He insisted that I have all editorial privilege and power. Nobody will dictate to me what I can say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:50:00]
COBURN: And I think what is beautiful about this is that we had Frederick Douglass being the great orator, but you could only reach so many people at
a time. We have to remember that it's at this point in the history of the United States that print takes off, and it is the Internet of that time
period.
MARTIN: Tell us about the souls of black folk. This is the one piece of Du Bois that I think a lot of people know. Tell us about where the idea for
this book came from, and what's the core of it for people who aren't familiar with it.
COBURN: So, in 1899, Sam Hose gets lynched. It changes him to a person who's now going to fight for his people using words, using journalism,
making sure people know what is happening. That's 1899. 1900, he goes to Paris, to the Paris Exposition. He takes a group of photographs that shows
that black people are living lives beyond digging their way out of Jim Crow. They're living lives that have purpose, meaning they have businesses,
they're studying the arts. He wants people to see a broader scope of black people.
He comes back during that same time period. His son Burkhardt dies. He's less than two years old, and he dies because no white doctors will treat
him. So, he's seen Sam Hose die in 1899. He's seen his son die. And at that point, he comes back, and he sits down, and he wants to write a book that
tells people that we are human beings, that we have souls, that we hurt, that we do art, that we have pleasures, that we're people.
So, "The Souls of Black Folk" is part of the international and national letters of this country. It's taught in universities and has been since its
publication in 1903.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He opens up with this concept that has three parts. Double consciousness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a peculiar sensation, this double consciousness, the sense of always looking at oneself through the eyes of others, of
measuring one's soul by the tape of a world that looks on in amused contempt and pity.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two-ness.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One ever feels his two-ness, an American, a Negro, two souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings, two warring ideals in one
dark body whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COBURN: And then he says, we live behind the veil. I am blood and bone of those who live behind the veil. At some point, will you let me out? Can I
be free?
MARTIN: Two more things we have to sort of talk about. The fact that he had beef with Booker T. Washington. I mean, this is something that I think
some people may know about, that the two of them kind of represent different perspectives of the kind of the path forward that was ideal for
black folks. Could you just as briefly as you can?
COBURN: W.E.B. Du Bois and Booker T. Washington, it's a story in which you have the up-and-coming and the current person that has kind of been
grandfathered into the society. Booker T. Washington was the most powerful black man in America during that time period. And what happens is, W.E.B.
Du Bois is a different sort. He didn't grow up in slavery.
Booker T. Washington was a slave until he was six years old. He had a very limited view of what we could possibly do, that maybe we could gain the
rights to be good workers and maybe we would find our way that way. W.E.B. Du Bois said, no, we need the right to vote. We need women's rights. We
need to have an agency about ourselves.
And so, his sandpaper relationship with Booker T. Washington started with him respecting him and then saying, I'm sorry, I have to part company
because this is what black people need at this point.
[13:55:00]
That's why I call him a rebel. He took on seven presidents. He took on Booker T. Washington. He took on Marcus Garvey. If he did not agree, he did
not agree. And he did not agree with Booker T. Washington saying we would be the workers of the South. He really felt that it was time to have the
13th, 14th, and 15th Amendment realized.
MARTIN: Rita Coburn, thank you so much for talking with us.
COBURN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Fascinating. The documentary will be premiering tomorrow night, 9:00 p.m. Eastern on PBS American Masters.
And finally, summiting Mount Everest once is an incredible feat, but imagine achieving it 32 times. Well, Nepali Sherpa Kami Rita did just that
whilst guiding a group of clients to the top, smashing his own record set last year. What you're seeing here is footage from his 28th adventure up to
the top. The 56-year-old first climbed the mountain back in 1994 and has done so nearly every year since. He was also born in the same village as
Tenzing Norgay, the first Sherpa to reach the world's tallest peak seven decades ago. Amazing story to leave you with today.
That is for us tonight. That is it for us today. Thank you so much for watching. Goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
