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Interview with Norwegian Refugee Council Secretary General Jan Egeland; Interview with "Ask E. Jean" Filmmaker Ivy Meeropol; Interview with "On Witness and Respair" Author Jesmyn Ward. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired June 01, 2026 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.

Iran suspends talks with the U.S. after Israel escalates in Lebanon. Could the ceasefire collapse? We'll have the details. Then, after weeks of

bombardment, conditions inside Iran are deteriorating fast. Secretary general of the Norwegian Refugee Council Jan Egeland explains the terrible

price civilians across the region are paying for this war.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you were concerned about being dragged through the mud, why would you choose to sue Donald Trump?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Because he called me a liar, and I couldn't let it stand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: The woman who took on Trump and won. E. Jean Carroll sued President Trump for defamation and sexual assault. Now, sources say the DOJ

has launched a criminal investigation into Carroll over perjury allegations. A new documentary, "Ask E. Jean," tells Carroll's remarkable

story. Its director, Ivy Meeropol, joins me.

Also, ahead, bestselling author Jesmyn Ward speaks to Walter Isaacson about how storytelling has shaped her life and her grandmother's early advice to

tell it straight and tell it all.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

We begin in the Middle East, where Iranian state media reports that Tehran has suspended talks with the U.S. in protest against Israel's intensifying

activity in Lebanon. These were the scenes in Beirut earlier, as civilians flooded out of the capital's southern suburbs. Israel has ordered the

evacuation of the Dahiya area in the south of the city, where the IDF is preparing to launch strikes against Hezbollah. It comes as Israel has been

broadening its attacks across southern Lebanon, and after a warning from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Israel plans to send troops deeper

into Lebanese territory.

I want to get to Oren Liebermann, who was in Jerusalem for us. So, Oren, just this expanded operation by Israel here with Hezbollah launching

increased attacks against Israeli troops. Now, Israel saying they're increasing the scope of their operation, initially saying that they had the

support of the United States in this operation, but with Iran now saying that a ceasefire between the U.S., Israel and Iran lies squarely in a

ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah. Where do things stand?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Bianna, that's an excellent question, and that's what we're waiting to learn here. That's because it

was at 10:30 this morning, so about 11 hours ago or so, that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Israel Katz say they had

announced that Israel would be striking Beirut and specifically the Dahiya neighborhood, a southern suburb of the Lebanese capital that's considered a

Hezbollah stronghold.

What we have not seen since then is an actual attack on Beirut. An Israeli source said this had been coordinated with the U.S. in advance or in real

time, but it's likely, it seems, that it's the U.S. that hasn't actually given its approval to this.

Normally, when you see not only an announcement of strikes, but even an evacuation warning for a specific area, it's not long afterwards that the

Israeli military will carry out those strikes. We haven't seen that actually happen yet, so it's a very interesting moment here.

It was just several hours after that Israeli announcement that Iran said it was suspending talks, partially because of the Israeli escalation in

Lebanon and also because of more U.S. strikes on Iran. So, the question is now where that leaves it. President Donald Trump said a short time ago that

maybe it's not so bad if talks are suspended and there's less talking. He said there's been too much talking.

Now, what that means is a bit unclear, since that would leave the Strait of Hormuz closed and the energy markets riled. But it does leave this

incredibly important question of where are talks headed and where are they going? Even if Israel hasn't begun striking Beirut yet, they have escalated

elsewhere.

Strikes in Tyre we have seen, one that, according to Lebanese state media, damaged a hospital, although the strike itself was right next to the

hospital and killed two people. We've seen strikes in Nabatea and the Bekaa Valley.

[13:05:00]

So, in other places in Lebanon as well, as we have seen Hezbollah fire rockets and drones not only to Israeli forces, but also deeper into

northern Israel. So, you see this escalation on the ground, and Iran has very much tied what happens in Lebanon to the overall agreement, something

that Israel has tried to avoid.

Bianna, in the middle of all this, the Trump administration is still trying to push forward with diplomacy between Israel and Lebanon. And that, as far

as we know, is still set to take place in the coming days. The question is, how do you get anybody here to de-escalate? And that's something that Trump

himself has to figure out.

GOLODRYGA: And I would argue only he can really control at this point. It is interesting, because as you noted just a few moments ago in an interview

with NBC News, he said that perhaps going silent would be very good, saying that he doesn't feel any pressure to reach a deal quickly and that he could

hold the blockade for as long as it takes.

But this comes after the weekend when this proposed MOU between Iran and the United States reports coming out saying that President Trump, under

pressure perhaps, is now or was demanding tougher asks from Iran. And it was just a waiting game for Iran to respond. How do we interpret the fact,

then, so quickly, after Israel expanded its operation in Lebanon, that we do see a response from Iran?

LIEBERMANN: Iran, when it wants to, apparently can respond relatively quickly, within several hours and doesn't take days to come to a broader

consensus, at least behind what is likely a small group of decision-makers at the top of the regime.

The reports were that the U.S. and Iran were fairly close to an agreement and that Trump was going in on Fridays to a security meeting to make a

final decision. And yet, he comes out of that, officials who spoke with CNN told us, looking for changes on nuclear issues, strong rewarding there, as

well as on the Strait of Hormuz. Well, those are the two key issues. And that delays the entire process.

Meanwhile, despite Trump repeatedly claiming that Iran wants a deal and they want it quickly, Iran has shown absolutely no leverage or pressure to

get to a deal quickly. And they are very much taking their time, feeling as if they're negotiating from a position of strength. And for them, it's a

waiting game and it's the U.S. waiting with high gas prices, and that clearly affects Trump domestically, versus the economic impact of the U.S.

blockade. Who can wait for that longer? Iran is betting it's them that can wait.

GOLODRYGA: Right. And add to that the ongoing or expanded fighting between Israel and Hezbollah. There is also political pressure on Prime Minister

Netanyahu facing elections in just a short period of time, a few months from now. As soon as September, perhaps even, where he has constantly been

under pressure and promising the Israeli public that he would be able to degrade Hezbollah's capabilities. That does not seem to be the case, as

more and more soldiers and even civilian areas continue to be targeted. So, where does that put him vis-a-vis his relationship with President Trump and

the Israeli public?

LIEBERMANN: Well, one thing that's clear is Benjamin Netanyahu will never say a crossword about Donald Trump in public, but Trump obviously has all

the leverage and all the pressure on Netanyahu here. And if Netanyahu wants to escalate, if he wants to strike Beirut, it will take Trump's approval

there.

Now, Netanyahu has looked for a decisive victory. He hasn't gotten that in Iran, he hasn't gotten it in Gaza, and right now he doesn't have it in

Lebanon vis-a-vis Hezbollah. Hezbollah has been very effective. They don't have the rocket and missile arsenal that they had, they don't have the

forces that they had, but they've used first-person drones very effectively to exact a price on Israeli forces and on the country itself. And that

means that Netanyahu is looking for a victory that Trump may not allow him to have if Trump wants that ceasefire with Iran.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, these are the same types of drones that we've become quite familiar with now on the battlefield in Ukraine as well.

LIEBERMANN: Absolutely.

GOLODRYGA: Oren Liebermann, good to see you. Thanks so much. Well, now, as this war could be escalating again, it is civilians who are paying the

price. After months under siege, Iran's economy and infrastructure has been badly damaged. And people there are reporting shortages of some basic

foods. The Norwegian Refugee Council is working on the ground in Iran, and it is warning that millions have already been displaced and tens of

thousands killed or injured.

The NRC Secretary General Jan Egeland is in Tehran right now, and he joins me from there. So, you have described civilian life, Jan, as turned upside

down since this war began. One would argue that even prior to the initial bombs dropping in February, the Iranian people were under dire straits

there, both from a humanitarian standpoint and politically. But tell us what you are seeing on the ground since you've been back this time most

recently.

[13:10:00]

JAN EGELAND, SECRETARY GENERAL, NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL: Within in the four days that I have been crisscrossing northwestern Iran and now in

Tehran, you see the traces of the intense bombardment everywhere. There was tens of thousands of missiles and rockets and impacts in the country.

But it's a huge place. And of course, now normalcy is coming to Tehran, 11 million inhabitants. But what's forgotten is that there are four and a half

million Afghan refugees here. And they were also in a very difficult situation, as you just indicated. Before this war, it's become worse for

them because also now the Iranian civilian population has been suffering. Millions have left. Many have come back. I have seen many apartment houses

destroyed. I've seen schools damaged, hospitals damaged. It has had an enormous consequence. And more than anything, people are feeling the

economic fallout of this conflict.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And the economy was in shambles even prior to this war. To remind viewers, the tens of thousands who were reported to have been

killed, the mass protests that we saw, that was spurred by the quickly deteriorating economic situation in the country.

If I could just pick up on what you said about the impact on Afghan refugees, because I think it's important for our viewers to know 4.4

million Afghan refugees are in Iran. That's one of the world's largest refugee populations. Sanctions, the economy, obviously inflation and

employment hitting them. Have you been able to speak with any of these refugees? And what are they telling you, if so?

EGELAND: I've been seeing a lot of Afghan refugees' families in this visit. We in the Norwegian Refugee Council, we're a frontline organization.

We have been working in Iran now since 2012. We're also in Lebanon. We're in Gaza. We're in Syria. We're in all of the war-affected countries of the

region. What we feel is that very often the civilian population is forgotten, and more than anyone, the refugees among them.

This Iran is the largest refugee-hosting country on Earth. There are many more Afghan refugees here than there would be in North America or in Europe

combined. They have been here, some of them, for 40 years, still in a very vulnerable position, even though they have gotten education and some health

care, because many are undocumented. Many have come here since the Taliban took over in Afghanistan. And they cannot return to Afghanistan because the

situation is so dire there. For them to lose the jobs of the breadwinner, the father very often in construction, the mother has been often a domestic

worker for Iranian families, all of that work is gone.

And I was today in a family of nine Afghans. There were three disabled with difficult disabilities in the family. They were in a small flat. The father

of the family was the only breadwinner. He was a shoemaker. His salary could barely make the rent that has gone up. So, if they are not having

relief from us in the Norwegian Refugee Council, they will be in the streets. That is forgotten in the donor countries, because they are giving

us so little support for our work in Iran for the refugees.

GOLODRYGA: And that just raises concerns about sectarian tension now in the country, as you're seeing Iranians, Afghans, others that are now having

to fight for scarce resources and jobs. So, inflation, as you note, is climbing staples. We're reporting like meat, medicine, fuel are getting

harder to find and afford. How is that affecting, first of all, your colleagues and the work that you're doing, but I would say more

importantly, everyday life for those in Iran today?

EGELAND: It's affecting everybody. You know, when you travel in Iran, it looks as if there is normalcy coming back. The traffic, famous traffic jams

of Tehran are back.

[13:15:00]

However, lots of shops have closed, industries have closed down, the ports have been blockaded by the U.S., just as Iran is now blockading the Strait

of Hormuz. That is having an enormous economic impact on the economy, on the economy of the country. It has economic consequences for the whole

region, but definitely for the Iranian civilian population and the most vulnerable are the refugees.

So, it has a cascading effect. People are exhausted. People are yearning for a diplomatic solution. There has to be a diplomatic solution. A return

to war would be utterly senseless and utterly reckless, and it would cause millions into horrific suffering.

GOLODRYGA: We know that the partial internet access has been restored in the country. The majority of it's still in the dark. But even with that,

I'm just curious, from those that you are speaking with, the families there, how aware are they or up to speed with the status of the ceasefire

and where the war and how it impacts their everyday life?

EGELAND: Yes. We're talking together now because of the partial lifting of the internet ban. Before that, we had to travel all the time to U.N.

colleagues to talk, use their one hour a day internet connection.

Now, more people are online. The rumors are ripe. What is Trump meaning today? What will happen tomorrow? What will Iran say? What kind of response

will that be? How would the Lebanese war affect the situation here? People are worried for the future. The fear is intense because the country is

gripped in the aftermath of a horrific war and fearing another one.

GOLODRYGA: Right. I mean, I can only imagine how traumatized a country of 90 million is at this point, having experienced now a war, a ceasefire,

perhaps that's very fragile and obviously leading up to that, the slaughter of their own their own neighbors.

The Norwegian Refugee Council is reporting, and you touched on this just a moment ago, that only about a third of the funding that you need for

emergency relief is coming in. Just explain to us what that means, what that -- how that presents itself in the way you are then able to help those

in need the most.

EGELAND: Yes, because we're underfunded everywhere now. Humanitarian funding from the United States and from many other of the most generous

donors have gone down, radically down at the time when we have record needs and record numbers of displaced and refugees.

It means in Iran, as it means in Lebanon and in Gaza and in Syria and elsewhere, that we have to choose whom to give emergency relief and whom to

drop. Where will we cut food rations to starving families? That's the reality now of a world where there is money for billions and billions and

billions of dollars for military campaigns that look as if they're solving nothing, solving nothing in the Middle East war and the Gulf War and in

Lebanon and in Gaza and elsewhere. And we're not even having funding to feed starving children. It's very frustrating for us who are in the midst

of this.

GOLODRYGA: Strikes have reportedly damaged about 150,000 homes, schools and other buildings. How is that just physical damage? I mean, I know you

say on the one hand, it does seem like life is coming back to somewhat of a normal state. But given all of that damage to infrastructure, what does

that mean for those that are going to school, wanting to go to work and needing medical care?

EGELAND: Well, of course, the tens of thousands of buildings have been destroyed and damaged. But of course, there are millions of structures in a

huge place like Iran. However -- I mean, 17 million children hasn't been to school for two months. They will not resume education in class until the

autumn after the summer break here.

[13:20:00]

It means that half a year will be gone of education for children in Iran. 70 million children, Iranian and Afghan. I met many of them today and

yesterday, and they would like to be back in school, which is normalcy, which is also for us, and the ability to give trauma care.

GOLODRYGA: I want to end by just talking to our viewers about how important it is to get aid to those who need it most. And there have been

concerns, even reports, that the Iranian authorities could be diverting aid, could be diverting food, humanitarian resources.

So, explain to our viewers about where that aid would be going and how to make sure that it avoids filling the coffers of the regime and goes to the

people that need it most.

EGELAND: Well, I have 100 aid workers on the ground here in Iran. We are interviewing each and every family about their needs. We ensure that it

goes -- the funding goes directly to the family that are homeless, that are -- like the family I just mentioned, nine family members, three disabled,

and they will be on the street unless we give them this subsidy for rent as an emergency measure.

We have total control of our work for the refugees, whether that is in Iran or Lebanon or Gaza or Syria or anywhere else. I would say, and I've been in

this now for 40 years, there's better control of funding for humanitarian relief, monitoring, evaluation, auditing, than there would be for most

private and public spending, including military spending elsewhere.

Those who would like to help us aid people now that are being displaced and starving can be sure that this will reach the people in most need.

GOLODRYGA: That's really important for our viewers to hear. You did mention Gaza, and I do want to ask you about the lines that we've heard

recently from Prime Minister Netanyahu under the deal back in October. The IDF was to hold 53 percent of the strip.

Now, Prime Minister Netanyahu said he wants to expand that to 70 percent. This is as they're still struggling to have Hamas disarm in the enclave,

and so that raises the question about the humanitarian situation there. What are your aid workers on the ground, if you still have any in Gaza?

What are they telling you about the latest needs?

EGELAND: They are telling us that the deep desperation is widening. I mean, Gaza is a tiny place, and more and more is taken by the military

machine of Netanyahu, that they are crammed together in a smaller and smaller space, and they are 60 percent, 70 percent, 80 percent women and

children that have nothing, nothing to do with Hamas.

Hamas has not disarmed, yes. Israel has not withdrawn as they should. No one has been following up the Trump peace plan, and the United States is

not pushing it through as they promised us to do. Israel has, on its side, cut out most of the American and European and international aid groups from

Gaza. There are fewer and fewer that are allowed to do normal work there. There is no compassion with the Palestinian civilians. It's only men with

guns and power that are in some kind of a match for something, and the civilian population is suffering more and more.

GOLODRYGA: Jan Egeland, I hate to leave it on such a pessimistic note, but you are giving us a lay of the land right now. Really appreciate your time

and all the work that you're doing on the ground there in Iran. Thank you.

And do stay with CNN. We will be right back after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:00]

GOLODRYGA: Next, to one woman versus the president of the United States. Magazine columnist E. Jean Carroll stunned the world in 2019 when she wrote

in a memoir that Donald Trump had raped her in the 1990s. Trump has denied the allegations, but Carroll has since sued him twice for defamation and

sexual assault and won.

Now, things have once again escalated as new reporting reveals that the DOJ is investigating Carroll for possible perjury during her testimony. It's an

extraordinary saga and a new documentary, "Ask E. Jean" is looking at the woman at the center of it. Here's a short clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

E. JEAN CARROLL: All my dreams were about becoming an advice columnist, and then Roger Ailes gave me my own TV show.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't really care who comments on anything because, I mean, you comment on everything.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you were concerned about being dragged through the mud, why would you choose to sue Donald Trump?

CARROLL: Because he called me a liar, and I couldn't let it stand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Director Ivy Meeropol joins me now from Los Angeles with more. Ivy, welcome to the program. So, this film, "Ask E. Jean," is about a woman

who publicly told her story in which she says she was sexually assaulted by Donald Trump. She beat Donald Trump in court twice, continued to be

insulted by Trump, threatened by his followers, and now facing, as we reported, new threats from the Justice Department that CNN was the first to

report.

You describe this documentary as a wildly uncertain and at times terrifying ride. Just tell us what drew you to this story and to E. Jean in

particular.

IVY MEEROPOL, FILMMAKER, "ASK E. JEAN": Sure. Well, so in 2019, when E. Jean first published the excerpt from her book, "What Do We Need Men For?,"

I read it in New York Magazine, as many people did, and I did not know anything about E. Jean, Carroll particularly, and I was so struck by her

voice, how unapologetic it was and how she was kind of refusing to be flattened in the way that women who come forward with these stories often

do.

And I just -- I reached out to her, and I was just -- I didn't expect her to be as funny and as brave and inspiring as she turned out to be. So,

that's really -- that was the hook for how I first began this long, over six-year journey with her.

GOLODRYGA: And you have a name for people who cross Donald Trump, the Trump Effect. Were you afraid at all throughout any of the process of

making the film over the course of six years? You know, the president going from being president to then being candidate to losing and then running

again and winning in 2024. Were you worried at all personally about how this would impact you?

MEEROPOL: I did at times actually worry. I -- you know, it was unclear, you know, how -- you know, who would be targeted for being, you know, part

of telling the story and bringing it out. We had a lot of trouble raising money. We had trouble once we did raise money with people feeling nervous

and wanting their names off the film. And so, you know, of course that starts to have a chilling effect on everybody involved.

But I always say it's difficult to spend time with E. Jean Carroll and Robbie Kaplan on this -- you know, on their pursuit of justice made all of

us who did stick with the film feel braver.

GOLODRYGA: Robbie Kaplan being E. Jean Carroll's attorney. So, just for our viewers who weren't familiar with E. Jean prior to these cases, she was

a well-known public figure in New York City, had her own program offering advice to women, in many ways a trailblazer in this field, writing first in

print and then going on TV, offering advice to women, in many ways a trailblazer in this field, writing first in print and then going on TV.

[13:30:00]

Just talk about who she was at her height. And there was a real moment in this film where she's speaking with one of her friends who recalled that at

one point, you know, Donald Trump, you know, we all know him as a larger- than-life celebrity in the '90s and early 2000s and then obviously president of the United States and most powerful person in the world. But

at that time, her friend really said, E. Jean, you were more prominent than he was for many people. Just tell us about her life.

MEEROPOL: Sure. And that's a really important point, just as an aside. When they met at the doors of Bergdorf Goodman and now, you know, Trump

famously has said that he didn't know her at all, he recognized her first as the advice -- you're that advice lady. And he -- and she said, you're

that real estate tycoon. So, yes, that is -- excuse me.

GOLODRYGA: Oh, I can hear you. Sorry. Go on.

MEEROPOL: Oh, sorry. I thought someone was talking to me. Someone else. Excuse me. Anyway, so E. Jean was -- as I discovered, because as I said, I

didn't know very much about her. She -- at the time she met -- ran into Donald Trump at Bergdorf Goodman, which was 1996. She had her own

television show called "The Ask E. Jean Show" that Roger Ailes had given her on his network, "America's Talking."

She also had -- the most popular advice column in ELLE magazine at the time. She was already well-established as a major journalist, one of the

only women writing for major magazines, particularly male magazines, male- oriented magazines like Esquire and Outside. She became the first female editor at Playboy magazine and at Esquire. So, she -- you know, she was a

very well-established figure and a serious writer.

GOLODRYGA: As a popular advice columnist, E. Jean Carroll took a tough line on these very issues and telling women to let go of all of their guilt

if they came to her and spoke of the abuses that they experienced. And she told them to press charges. But I want to play a clip from the documentary,

as I noted when she was speaking with her friend Lisa Birnbach, who was a writer and humorist and who E. Jean turned to immediately after this

experience that she says occurred with the president or with Trump at the time.

She raised this. You know, why are you telling people to do certain things and you, in fact, didn't for so many years? Let's play the clip.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA BIRNBACH, AUTHOR: I was very disappointed that you wouldn't report him.

CARROLL: But, Lisa, they never would have believed me. I would have lost my -- I would have been fired. I didn't have money to get an attorney.

Everything I had worked for would be dissipated.

BIRNBACH: You said, don't ever speak of this again. Don't ever tell anyone this story as long as you live. Do I have your word? And you did. And that

was that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: So, what did you end up learning, Ivy, about what ultimately led her to come out and speak her experience and her truth?

MEEROPOL: So, this was really the part of her story that made this film feel like so much more than just about Carroll v. Trump. You know, E. Jean

was willing to look at herself in a way that, you know, most people never do. At age 75, kind of looking back at the advice she gave and how she

accommodated men, meanwhile being this kind of -- this fierce -- fearless person herself who stayed silent.

So, it was really the MeToo movement that galvanized E. Jean. She was so moved by the stories that were coming out and that they were actually

gaining justice, that men were being held accountable, which is something E. Jean hadn't experienced and didn't expect. And I think it really -- it

moved her so much. But it was also her own readers coming to her at that time and saying, we -- you know, what do we do? We have similar stories,

similar experiences. What do we do now?

And so, it felt really pressing to her to tell her own stories, share them with her readers. And, you know, I look at it now as always like caring

about herself.

GOLODRYGA: On May 9th, a jury found that Donald Trump was liable for sexual abuse and defamation and awarded E. Jean Carroll $5 million in

damage. He has denied all of these charges and accusations to this day, calling this a fake story, a made-up story. And here's what he said about

why he didn't testify in the first.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, THEN-U.S. REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This was a rigged deal. This was a -- my lawyer said, sir, you don't have to do it. I

actually said, I think I should. It would be respectful. They said, sir, don't do it. This is a fake story, and you don't want to give it

credibility. That's why I didn't go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One thing you did do in this --

TRUMP: And I swear, and I've never done that, and I swear to -- I have no idea who the hell -- she's a whack job.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, you did not testify --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: And it was comments like this, both in interviews and on social media, that ultimately led E. Jean to sue Donald Trump again. The second

jury verdict was announced at $83.3 million in damages. I don't believe -- has any of that been paid yet?

MEEROPOL: No.

GOLODRYGA: No.

MEEROPOL: Nothing.

GOLODRYGA: So, then let me ask you your reaction to the news last week of an investigation, perhaps from the DOJ. I don't know if it was confirmed

from the DOJ just yet, but CNN had been reporting and is standing by that reporting. Just your reaction to that news, and what did E. Jean say if you

spoke with her recently?

MEEROPOL: Well, I actually haven't spoken with E. Jean recently. She -- you know, they are really -- she and Robbie and the whole team are really

in the midst of -- you know, the two cases heading to the Supreme Court and then this recent attack from the DOJ.

So, I -- you know, I've said -- you know, I found it unbelievable, but not surprising. I did react very strongly and -- but then started to think, oh,

you know what, it's consistent, you know?

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

MEEROPOL: Starting with Comey and Letitia James. I mean, I think that, you know, there is some pattern here that's clear. And I think -- you know, I

think when you watch the film, what's really important is that this film is the antidote to that. You know, he is this -- the kind of bullying and

trying to silence E. Jean is very clear. And I don't -- as far as I know, I mean, there are no facts that I can cite or any way that give any credence

to if -- you know, this investigation, if it is a real investigation.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, and the U.S. attorney --

MEEROPOL: The E. Jean I know is -- sorry.

GOLODRYGA: The U.S. attorney put out a statement --

MEEROPOL: The E. Jean that I know --

GOLODRYGA: I'm sorry. Don't mean to keep interrupting you. We're just tight on time. The U.S. attorney put out a statement saying that it has not

opened and never opened a criminal investigation to E. Jean Carroll. I do want to ask you, we have a few seconds left here, just the connections

here.

Your grandparents were Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. They were the only Americans, civilians who were executed for espionage-related charges during

the Cold War. You made a movie about their legacy and one about Roy Cohn, who happened to be President Trump's famous attorney. He keeps on saying, I

need my own Roy Cohn. What was that like? Just the knowing, the connection there, going back so many generations for you.

MEEROPOL: Well, I mean, you know, I think I have this, you know, kind of, it's in my DNA to want to expose, you know, abuse of power and also hold

people accountable and seek justice. So, I -- you know, I made the Roy Cohn film right after Donald Trump was first elected because I wanted people to

really understand where he comes from and who helped create him. And this kind of culture of fear that has really infected our country right now and

specifically the process of making this film and E. Jean herself comes directly from that lineage.

GOLODRYGA: Ivy Meeropol, thank you so much for the time. Really appreciate it. Thanks for sharing the film with us.

MEEROPOL: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: And we'll be right back after this short break.

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GOLODRYGA: Now, storytelling is a powerful tool for connection and for preserving the memories of our loved ones. That is particularly true for

two-time National Book Award winner Jesmyn Ward, who has found solace in storytelling after her grandmother passed away from Alzheimer's. She joins

Walter Isaacson to discuss her latest collection of essays and how her writing has helped restore her hope after despair.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Jesmyn Ward, welcome to the show.

JESMYN WARD, AUTHOR, "ON WITNESS AND RESPAIR": It's good to be here.

ISAACSON: The first chapter of your book ends with the six magic words, I think, of any writer, which is, let me tell you a story. And that's the

theme of the book, is the power of storytelling. Tell me why you find storytelling so important.

WARD: Well, I think -- you know, I think back to -- I don't know, to when I was growing up. I come from a really big family in rural Mississippi, a

really huge extended family. And when we gathered, we, you know, celebrated and ate and drank. But also, the older people in my family told stories.

And so, I grew up around storytellers. I grew up hearing stories of my grandparents, my great grandparents. So, I don't know. I feel like

storytelling has always been really important to how I understand myself and to how I understand my community and my family and the people around

me.

ISAACSON: Well, let me focus on the great storyteller in your book, which is your grandmother. And she told stories that had a moral purpose to them

as well. Just tell me about her. Tell me about sitting on her lap.

WARD: Yes. My -- so, when I speak about my grandmother, I'm speaking about my maternal grandmother, my mom's mom. And I grew up with her. I mean, she

was a second, you know -- well, not really a second, I guess a third parental figure for me. I grew up in her household because me and my

nuclear family had to live with her for a number of years. She -- when she told stories, she was always -- it was always important to her that she was

telling the whole story, right, telling the good with the bad.

You know, she was -- in her stories, they always -- there was a serious weight at the center of them. But at the same time that there was a serious

weight at the center of them, they were also -- her stories were also funny. You know, they were also full of love and joy and connection.

And, you know, she did not have an easy life. You know, she did not complete high school. She never graduated. She earned her GED. She worked

really hard throughout her life, you know, as a housekeeper and later as a factory worker. But she embraced life.

ISAACSON: Let me quote her from the way you quote her in this book of essays, which is you say, "My Dorothy was the first storyteller of my life.

One of the most important lessons she taught me about life and story was this. Tell it straight. Tell it all." And that what this book of essays has

and your fiction, your novels have it, which is you don't sort of sugarcoat things. And yet, there's a core of hope and optimism that comes through.

WARD: Yes. I mean, there are two reasons for that. The first reason is because writing, you know, in that way is I'm being honest about what I see

in my family, in my extended family and in my community, right? And then the second reason, you know, that I -- that is important to me to

be honest in my work in that way is because I feel like, you know, people who came before me, my parents, my grandparents, my great grandparents, you

know, all the people who -- you know, who lived in this place and who made me what I am today.

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They live they always they live their lives that way, right. They embrace the truth of their lives. And at the same time, they never lost a sense of

hope. They held that close to them. And that's -- I think that's what made it possible for them to thrive and not just survive their lives.

ISAACSON: And you talk about survive. And once again, the last sentence of your book repeats the theme. You say you tell stories, you tell your -- you

tell their stories, you tell your story, you survive. And so, how important is it to the survival that we become a species of storytellers?

WARD: I mean, I think it's essential because storytelling enables us, I think, to connect the dots in our lives, to carry a sense of meaning in our

lives. You know, we all we also use storytelling to connect to others. And that's really important, too.

ISAACSON: One of the sad things I notice in the book is that she develops Alzheimer's. What do you learn from that when she can no longer remember

the stories?

WARD: It's heartbreaking, really. You know, she was a storyteller. You know, my grandmother was. She had so much knowledge, I think, of my family

and of my community and of our history. And so, when she began to lose her stories, she lost an important part of herself, I think. And, you know,

because she is -- she -- because she was the first storyteller of my life, because she helped me to learn to see the world through stories and through

connections. It was heartbreaking, I think, you know, for me to witness her losing those stories and losing --

ISAACSON: But do you feel you're carrying on her work?

WARD: I hope so. I hope so. You know, she was an exceptional, you know, storyteller, like in person, an oral storyteller. You know, I practice in a

different medium, but I don't know. I hope that I'm carrying on her legacy and that I'm making her proud.

ISAACSON: One of the complexities of race you talk about in the book is when your grandmother, Dorothy, goes to visit her white auntie. Tell me

about that.

WARD: Yes, that's one of the earliest stories that my grandmother told me. You know, as I said, like she was very intent on telling you the whole

truth. But that was one of the early stories that she told me. So, you know, this is the -- my family is mixed, I guess. And so, she would visit

her white is her grand aunt. So, it was her grandmother's sister who was white and her grandmother was white. And they actually lived up in the kiln

in Mississippi.

And, you know, which is, you know, right next to De Lisle, just sort of north. And they would visit during the daytime, right. And, you know, her

grandma -- her white grandmother would go. And then her dad and then all the kids would sort of pile in the car. But when sunset approached her, her

aunt would say, OK, it's time for you to go. You know, like --

ISAACSON: And that's because the kiln was a white community and De Lisle was a black community, even though they were abutting each other.

WARD: Yes. And so, there was -- there -- I mean, she was concerned for their safety, right, if they were there after -- if they were there during

the night. And so, they would pile back into the car. But, you know, my grandmother is a brown skinned woman, you know, and all of her siblings,

they were, you know, varying shades of brown, like you could tell that they were mixed.

And so, they would have to hide in the trunk of the car. And she would always tell me there's this, you know, I say, you know, we called it the

boot, you know, so we would all have to climb into the trunk of the car and they would close the boot. And that's how we would ride back, even though

the sun hadn't even set yet, but that's how they would ride back from the kiln to De Lisle.

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And my -- you know, her grandmother would sit in front and then her father, who was so light-skinned that he could pass for white, if need be, they

would sit in the front.

ISAACSON: This great book, which I loved, is called "On Witness and Respair," and I know a whole lot of words, but I didn't know the word

repair. Tell me about it.

WARD: I'm sad that I can't actually remember the name of the poet who taught me this word. It was a poet that I followed. And in 2020, they were

-- they made a number of posts about how they were thinking about the word respair and holding that word close to them. And when I read it, I thought,

well, I don't even know what respair means. And then they explain what it means and that it means to find hope after despair.

And it's -- I -- you know, I think I lit up, you know, like now when I read it, because I thought, oh, it's a real shame that we've lost that word and

that we don't have that word, because now that I know it, it feels like an essential concept, an essential idea. And so, I made note of it, right.

And so, then when I was working on the essay about my partner, my spouse who died in early 2020, I thought, this is a perfect word to share, you

know, in this essay.

ISAACSON: When you were young in the library in Mississippi, there was a map of Mississippi writers and it had black and white, it had Richard

Wright, it had Eudora Welty, of course, and then Faulkner. Now, you're on the map in De Lisle. But you started reading these people.

Let me start, if I can, with Faulkner, because I've got an odd theory about your book, which you may push back on, which is De Lisle and all your

novels are in this town. It's sort of like your Yoknapatawpha County is to Faulkner. And it's all about storytelling.

You have Quentin in Absalom, Absalom sitting at Aunt Rosa's feet, listening to the storytelling of it. How much do you think you're similar and how

much do you think you're different from Faulkner? Because you both write about race in these tiny communities.

WARD: I mean, I think that I definitely sort of modeled this idea of writing about a community, writing about a town and also fictionalizing

basically my hometown in this area along the Gulf Coast, because I read Faulkner and because I saw what he did in his work and how he made that

place seem alive and complicated and real, right? And so, yes, I think I definitely modeled my fiction after his.

You know, there's this -- there's a sense of atmosphere in his work that I think that I also try to, I don't know, translate into my own work.

ISAACSON: Your novels, all of them, even "Salvage the Bones," ends, I think, with hopeful notes. Is that right? And why?

WARD: I think so. I think all my work -- and there's an element of hope, I think, in all of my work. Part of the reason that I think that that is true

and perhaps the most essential reason is because, as I said, like I look at my grandmother's life, I look at my great grandparents' life, you know, I -

- when I was growing up, when I was a kid, several of my great grandparents were still alive, right.

And so, I, you know, look at their lives and they, without some sense of hope, you know, without some sense of hope that they could sort of live

their way to a better tomorrow and they could help sort of create a better tomorrow. You know, I don't think that they would have survived, you know,

Mississippi in the '20s and '30s and '40s and '50s. So, I don't know. So, I think that, you know, I try to honor that in my creative nonfiction, but in

my fiction as well.

ISAACSON: We're about to have our 250th birthday as a nation, a time of a lot of despair and a lot of discord. What lessons from poor black community

in Mississippi do you have for the nation?

WARD: Well, I think we have to follow my grandmother Dorothy's lead, right, I think that we have to tell the whole story, tell the whole truth,

you know, even if it makes us uncomfortable, we have to reckon and we have to witness with it all.

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Because that's how we get, I think, to a fuller understanding of who we are and of what we can become. And I think that's how we also still hold on to

a sense of hope, especially right now. I think in a moment that for many of us, especially those of us from my neck of the woods that can feel rather

hopeless.

ISAACSON: Jesmyn Ward, thank you so much for joining us.

WARD: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you

can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.

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