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Amanpour
Interview with United Nations General Assembly President Annalena Baerbock; Interview with IRC Regional Vice President for MENAU Sherine Ibrahim; Interview with "The Pitt" Actress Sepideh Moafi; Interview with The New York Times Former National Correspondent Susan Saulny. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired June 19, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNALENA BAERBOCK, PRESIDENT, UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY: We need just and lasting peace and having a refocus on these debates is extremely
important because people are dying every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: War and peace in the balance. I asked the president of the U.N. General Assembly, Annalena Baerbock, for a reality check on Trump's Iran
agreement, Ukraine's resilience against Russia, and the future of the United Nations.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEPIDEH MOAFI, ACTRESS, "THE PITT": I have lived with the stories and the journey of my parents and the pain of displacement and exile my whole life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- to mark World Refugee Day, I hear from the International Rescue Committee's Sherine Ibrahim, and a former refugee, now star of the
acclaimed TV show, "The Pitt," Sepideh Moafi.
Also, ahead, a Family Secret No More. Reporting on her own history, journalist Susan Saulny tells Michel Martin the story of two black
brothers, one living under Jim Crow laws, the other passing as white.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
A win-win or a capitulation? This week, G7 allies praised President Trump for his agreement with Iran, as he signed his very own Versailles Treaty at
a dinner with them on Wednesday night. But even many of his own Republican supporters are highly critical. Here's his former Vice President, Mike
Pence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I do have concerns about the memorandum of understanding now that we see it, and the terms about what's
in it and also what's not in it suggests to me that it does smack of the kind of appeasement that our administration rejected in the Obama-Iran
nuclear deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The MOU is an agreement to deal with the biggest challenges ahead, especially the nucleophile. But it is front-loaded, with immediate
concessions to Tehran, notably to waive sanctions on its oil exports, with billions of dollars then flowing back into the regime's coffers, and no
mention of human rights for the Iranian people.
Is this a case of a superpower misjudging its less powerful adversary, like Vladimir Putin has done with his invasion of Ukraine? This week, the G7
committed to supporting Ukraine and strengthening sanctions on the Kremlin. And Kyiv has pounded Moscow with its heaviest drone barrage of the war,
forcing the capital to temporarily close its airports. And the latest from the front, it is Ukraine now incrementally pushing Russia back.
Now, that the Iran agreement is signed, perhaps Trump will turn his attention back to negotiations between Putin and Ukraine. But where has the
United Nations been all this time? Historically, it is the global conflict resolution mechanism.
Annalena Baerbock is a former German foreign minister and now president of the U.N. General Assembly. I spoke to her this week to discuss the state of
war, peace, and the future of the United Nations.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Annalena Baerbock, welcome back to our program.
ANNALENA BAERBOCK, PRESIDENT, UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY: Thank you so much for having me on the show.
AMANPOUR: So, there are big issues that are being talked about right now, issues that are not just global, but also very pertinent to the United
Nations. Let me ask you first about what you think is going to be the result of this MOU between the United States and Iran. What do you think
it's going to lead to?
BAERBOCK: Hopefully to more peace and ending the consequences all around the world, because ending hostilities, ending a war is always a good thing.
Yet we have to be very honest to ourselves to see where the world stood before February 28. And some of the dramatic consequences will be felt even
in months after.
Fertilizers not getting to different parts of the world, especially to those who need it most, will be consequential for the poorest around the
world, not having the harvest they should have. Also, the energy prices hit the poorest most. And we should not forget about the people of Iran
demanding freedom for themselves for a very, very long time. And therefore, a ceasefire, an end of war, an end of hostilities is always very important,
is always the best we can achieve.
Yet we should not ignore that the reasons after this war and also that the secretary-general and I called immediately to everyone that the charter is
not optional, but that there's a reason that member states should settle their disputes peacefully, should be one of the strongest reminder of the
last months.
AMANPOUR: Because the nuclear issue is also so important to the United Nations, this is still to be negotiated. Iran is going to that it will not
seek a nuclear weapon. Of course, this was its position and it was on the table before the war, as you say.
[13:05:00]
But I'm interested in what you just said about the Iranian people, because as you know, the president of the United States, the prime minister of
Israel, both of them went to this war together, talked about liberating the people. And instead, the deal has been made to keep the current Islamic
Republic of Iran regime in power.
And not only that, one of the main points suggests or says that both Iran and the United States will respect each other's territorial sovereignty,
integrity, and pledge not to interfere in each other's affairs. That seems to me how I read it, as no more attempts at regime change and the Iranian
people are on their own.
BAERBOCK: First of all, it's not up to me to comment on the specifics of bilateral negotiations. Yet it's my role to uphold the charter, the charter
of the United Nations, which makes very clear that every member states has a sovereign right to their own territorial integrity.
And then we have other documents, like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which is, by name, universal, underlining that every person around
the world has the right to live in freedom, in dignity, in security, and express their opinion freely. And upholding these principles is more
important in these times than hardly ever before. And therefore, this has to be part of the current discussions as well.
We saw how many people died in the last months and also before February. And this is also a global responsibility to stand up for human rights, as
to stand up for the charter and the territorial integrity of every country.
And thank you for raising the point of the nuclear safety, as well. This is one of the most severe global threats. This is one of the reasons why this
institution, the United Nations, was founded 80 years ago, with the consequences of using a nuclear bomb. And therefore, the point around the
securing of Iran, applying the international rules on nuclear safety and also non-proliferation, has to be followed up immediately in the upcoming
days.
AMANPOUR: Let's talk about Ukraine, which you were very involved with when you were Germany's foreign minister in the aftermath of the full-scale
invasion by Putin. And obviously, it's a big issue for the United Nations, because it goes to the heart of the U.N. promise that there will be no more
war and that countries will not invade their neighbors and break international borders.
At the G7, they all pledged again to turn their attention back to Ukraine and to try to help. But it appears that Russia is becoming -- I don't know,
it's being described as maybe more desperate, maybe Putin more paranoid. All sorts of activities are being blamed on Russia, right here in the U.K.,
for instance, in the English Channel. They're blaming Russia-backed arsonists for damage against properties connected with the British prime
minister. All those things are going on.
What do you think the U.N. can do about it, given that Russia is part of the Security Council and has a veto, and the General Assembly, which you're
president of, doesn't have that power to constrain a member state?
BAERBOCK: This is a big challenge of the United Nations. This institution was, as one secretary-general said at the beginning, not built to bring
humankind to heaven, but to prevent it from hell. And it's in the hands of the member states, 193 to follow up on the principle they all signed back
80 years ago. And if a permanent member of the Security Council, which is, by definition, responsible for upholding peace and security around the
world, is violating that charter by itself, an institution like the U.N., which doesn't have any preceding powers, cannot solve this problem alone.
And this is why the debates within the United Nations, in the General Assembly, by 193 member states, are so crucial, that the vast majority of
member states know that the charter is their life insurance, that any breach of the sovereignty of another state, of neighbors, is also a direct
threat for themselves, because they are not sure whether they might be next in the future.
And therefore, the majority of the General Assembly has made very, very clear in all the last years that this is a fundamental breach of the
charter of the United Nations, that Russia has to withdraw their troops, that we need just and lasting peace. And having a refocus on these debates
is extremely important, because people are dying every day.
[13:10:00]
And as you mentioned, this is a hybrid warfare. We see the consequences again all around the world with regard to, in the past, grain prices, with
also energy prices, but also, as we saw, for example, in Romania, where a drone hit a civilian place, even in the territory of the European Union.
AMANPOUR: Yes. I mean, it makes me want to ask you about Article 5 of the NATO pact, because Romania is part of NATO, and it hit a NATO country, and
it was, you know, the mantra is not one inch. Do you fancy expressing yourself on whether NATO should have reacted to that?
BAERBOCK: Again, my current position as the president of the General Assembly, and this is why I defend the charter of the United Nations with
everything I have, yet we have to also call out violations of the charter. And these underlines, again, that neutrality in a situation of injustice is
not neutrality, but it always supports the aggressor. And therefore, taking a side, taking a side for humanity, for peace, and for protecting the
charter should be in the interest of all.
AMANPOUR: Let me now go back to the sort of founding principles of the U.N. And we're talking at a time when the U.N. has been struggling to
assert its legitimate and historic positions on the world stage. The United States' current administration kind of sidelines the U.N. to a great
extent. And you are facing an upcoming election for the next secretary- general of the United Nations.
Now, you obviously know Thant Myint-U, he's the grandson of one of the founding U.N. general -- secretaries-general. And he's basically just
written that the U.N.'s founding strength was not institutional. It's not just because you're called the U.N. It was based on two convictions, one,
that wars of aggression are intolerable, and two, that empires must end. And he says that both those principles are eroding with the -- you know,
we've talked about Russia, we've talked about Iran and all the rest of it.
Do you think, do you agree that those principles, you know, the founding sort of, you know, the founding principle of stopping wars of aggression,
and that has been somewhat watered down, or a lot watered down?
BAERBOCK: Without question. The U.N. is not only under pressure, and I made that very clear at the beginning of this year, it is under direct
attack. If member states who have the responsibility due to their permanent seat in the Security Council are not protecting the charter, but are even
in violation of the charter, obviously, this is not only a challenge, but this is dramatic for the United Nations. But the United Nations can only be
as strong as their commitment of their member states.
It is a sum of 193. And therefore, the call by some of arguing now, well, if they are not delivering on the principles, maybe we should get rid of
the United Nations, is playing in the hands of those who are in violation of the charter. Because what would be the alternative? If we would say,
well, then we should just not engage in the United Nations anymore, no single day would the world be better off, because then even more countries
would be encouraged to use force to come forward with their interests.
And also, on the other hand, the United Nations was mainly built to protect civilians. And on this part, there's no other actor around the world who
can deliver on that one. We saw it also with proposals like, for example, the Board of Peace, and also the proposals of saying we organize now the
humanitarian aid for Gaza.
We see that this cannot be done by a group of some, but it needs the power of the whole United Nations. And without the U.N. and all its sub-agencies,
for example, millions of people would literally starve. Without the United Nations and UNICEF, millions of children would not go to school.
Look at the example of Ebola. Without the preventive action by an international organization, we have outbreaks of health crises again, which
we dealt with successfully when everybody joined hands in the past and did not cut so heavily on funding.
So, if we want a strong United Nations, we need a strong commitment by member states, especially those having a special right and therefore a
special responsibility within the Security Council.
AMANPOUR: Well, what if they don't want a stronger United Nations, and particularly your strongest backer and your strongest fundraiser, which is
the United States?
[13:15:00]
And I know you're talking obliquely, but it's the United States which has cut all of this aid, especially to the U.N., especially in humanitarian
affairs, particularly around the Ebola breakout. And we also see the Board of Peace is a U.S. construction, and the director of that has said in his
own words that despite six months or more now of the ceasefire in Gaza, the United Nations is not going to cut all of this aid to the United Nations.
There are, quote, "no recovery in Gaza." 80 of the buildings destroyed, no reconstruction barely begun. Israeli forces now control up to 60 or even
more percent of the strip, well beyond the line the ceasefire was supposed to bring them back to Palestinians. At least 980 have been killed since the
ceasefire. I mean, isn't that a slap in the face to the United Nations?
BAERBOCK: Well, I would rather say it shows that alternative organizations obviously cannot deliver as the United Nations. By all its imperfection of
the U.N., without any doubt, yes, I've worked now for a couple of months in this system, we need a deeper reform. Yet the strength of the United
Nations is that every country, no matter how big or small, how strong or how weak, has an equal seat at the table that's different than the
institution you mentioned.
You don't -- or you cannot buy yourself into this club, but everyone is equal. And this sometimes takes longer, because if you have to agree with
193 or if you need a majority with 193, it's harder. Yet if you have the whole commitment of the world, you can also deliver better.
But yes, indeed, the heavy cuts by member states, which you mentioned, are dramatic, and we should not sugarcoat. People are dying because of that.
And we even have aid in warehouses which cannot be delivered to infants, for example. And we have to ask also ourselves at this moment, why are we
endangering all the successes from the past?
I mentioned Ebola. Another example is HIV/AIDS. This was one of these global diseases more than 30 years ago, where the world did not know what
to do. They joined hands. We managed to control it, and now we are on the edge of destroying the success at the last miles, because the cuts are
being so heavy. But to be frank and open, it's not only the U.S. The U.S. is one of the biggest donors because of their size, and the non-payment by
the U.S. is dramatic, as I described. Yet also other member states did not pay yet full, and definitely not in time.
So, it's a fundamental discussion which we have to have in the United Nations about the funding system itself.
AMANPOUR: Well, many of those who back you and back the United Nations believe that whoever is the next secretary-general needs to actually really
insert themselves and to exert the moral bully pulpit and all the things that you can actually do at the United Nations. So, my question to you is,
would a woman for the first time as Secretary-general be able to do that?
BAERBOCK: To quote the current secretary-general, Antonio Guterres, not after 80 years it's time for a woman. It has been time 20 years ago. It has
been time even 80 years ago, because women are half of the world's population. We know if you include women in peace-building negotiations,
peace treaties last longer. We know if you have equal representations in businesses, in your economy, economies grow stronger and better. We know
that education raises if women are engaged.
And this is why two years ago all member states -- it's a bit of a surprise -- in unity called for strongly nominating women. And we have now even more
women candidates because more applied in the last days. And therefore, this becomes also a question of credibility for the United Nations itself. So,
if they call in consensus for strongly nominating women, it will be really hard to explain afterwards why in a time of 2026 it was not possible again.
And this lies really in the hands of the member states. And the General Assembly, at least more than 150 heads of states, made very clear in
September in the general debate that they really want to see that the U.N. is standing up to its own principles, also by appointing the next
secretary-general.
AMANPOUR: You've made your point. Annalena Baerbock, president of the U.N. General Assembly, thank you for being with us.
BAERBOCK: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, in a world plagued by war, crises and climate change, it's vulnerable communities that are hurt the most. Official U.N. figures show
almost 118 million people are displaced. That is double the number since 2014.
So, this year's World Refugee Day, the International Rescue Committee is trying to raise awareness. Sepideh Moafi was born in a refugee camp in
Germany after her family fled Iran following the revolution. And now, she's an actress best known for her role in the hit series "The Pitt." She's also
an ambassador for the IRC. And she joined me, along with senior IRC official Sherine Ibrahim.
Sepideh and Sherine, welcome to the program.
SEPIDEH MOAFI, ACTRESS, "THE PITT": Thank you for having us.
AMANPOUR: Let me start with you, Sherine. I want to get your reaction to what the E.U. has just legislated. The parliament there has approved the
strictest ever migration, you know, law in decades this week. It apparently allows E.U. countries to set up deportation centers outside the E.U.
itself. Sort of return hubs, they're calling it. Do you know what this is all about? And what is your assessment of it?
SHERINE IBRAHIM, REGIONAL VICE PRESIDENT FOR MENAU, IRC: So, thank you, Christiane. Obviously, we are still trying to understand the implications
of these decisions. But we, as the IRC, call on governments, whether they are the U.S. or within the European Union, to make sure that they preserve
access to asylum and refugee resettlement programs.
And people who seek that asylum or seek that resettlement opportunity have safe and dignified pathways to do so. Because what we are seeing is that
people go to great lengths and risk their own lives to get to other shores. So, that is important for the IRC, to make sure that asylum and refugee
resettlement are safeguarded.
AMANPOUR: So, just to continue, because there are millions of refugees who need to be settled. The UNHCR, Sherine, says that for the first time,
though, in a decade, the total number of forcibly displaced people has declined. Do you buy that?
IBRAHIM: I mean, declined, you know, over the last year. So, I think there is room for optimism, but we also have to see the nuance of these figures.
U.N. figures are telling us that there are 118 million forcibly displaced people globally. Today, you know, as we look at 2026 numbers, we can
celebrate that 14 million people have returned to their homes.
So, displacement figures are declining. However, on the flip side of that, Christiane. You also have 14 million newly displaced people just this year
alone, as a result of new wars and shocks. So, I would take that, obviously, that figure or that optimism, and really dig into it a little
bit more deeply.
What we're feeling as humanitarian organizations, especially, as you know, I represent the International Rescue Committee, we're feeling that this
doesn't feel optimistic. It doesn't feel like recovery. It feels like a revolving door, people returning, but more people being displaced.
[13:25:00]
And unfortunately, the displacement experience takes much, much longer to resolve. So, even though we have an optimism today, this number may see an
increase in the very near future if wars and climate disasters continue.
AMANPOUR: Well, keep an eye on that. Let me turn to you, Sepideh. You are now incredibly well-known in the United States for many things, but on the
back especially of the pit on HBO. But you also have been a refugee. You were apparently born in a refugee camp after your parents fled the Islamic
Revolution of 1979. So, talk to me about what you remember from that experience and why you decided to become a special ambassador for the IRC.
MOAFI: Well, Christiane, my lens on the world was forged by how I entered it. My parents were both political activists in Iran fighting for
democracy. My father was actually imprisoned under the reign of the Shah. And then after the Islamic Revolution with the rise of the Islamic
Republic, as you know, repression became much more brutal.
Many of my parents' friends were imprisoned, executed, and yet they continued their activism until they were forced to flee. They left their
home with nothing more than a suitcase and my older sister in hand and fled to Turkey where they sought asylum. And then lived across refugee camps in
Germany at the time it was East and West Germany. And I was born in Regensburg in a refugee camp.
And so, I was still a baby when we came to the United States and were ultimately granted asylum. But I have lived with the stories and the
journey of my parents and the pain of displacement and exile my whole life. And this has fueled my advocacy work and my work as an artist. I simply
can't separate my parents' story and our journey to the United States from the 118 million displaced people around the world and their stories.
And so, I've been a longtime admirer of the work that the International Rescue Committee does. I started by donating in high school whatever small
amount I could. And then about seven years ago, they invited me to be an ambassador where I help amplify the incredible work that they do to help
refugees and displaced people around the world survive, recover, and rebuild their lives.
AMANPOUR: So, could I ask you, because I know that for the IRC, you have visited the Zaatari refugee camp for Syrians that is in Jordan. And even
with the fall of Assad and so many people already gone back, there are still many, many thousands of people still there.
But did this experience you've just told me about, was it -- did it inform your role in "The Pitt"? You play in "The Pitt" in the second season. Dr.
Baran al-Hashimi. And before you -- you know, you come to "The Pitt," your story is that you worked with Doctors Without Borders in Afghanistan. So,
the whole humanitarian landscape where you would have met all these people who we're talking about right now, refugees and the most vulnerable.
MOAFI: Yes, absolutely. I mean, some of the people -- even before "The Pitt," some of the people that I admire most and who I'm lucky enough to
call my friends are humanitarian aid workers and humanitarian doctors who work in conflict zones.
And so, for me, it was about absorbing as much information and experience that I could from my friends and people that I spoke to understand, you
know, what kind of person it takes to leave your life, to leave your family and the comfort of your home and really just go to an unfamiliar place and
an unknown place and risk your life to help where help is needed most. I mean, it takes a particular kind of person, character to do such selfless
acts, to go to places like Gaza and Lebanon and Afghanistan, some place that my character served, and go to these areas where in some cases, entire
cities are seemingly one continuous emergency department where resources are scarce and the need is overwhelming.
And something that moved me that I layered into this character was that across the board, anyone who I've talked to or anybody who I've seen or
read speak when they come back from having been deployed talks about despite the horror, despite the destruction and death, they would go back
in a heartbeat because even in the depths of darkness, they witnessed these extraordinary acts of courage and solidarity and generosity.
[13:30:00]
And for me, it was so important for this character to hold the voices of her colleagues that she's left behind to hold their practice in her own
practice. And I think this detail gives a specific gravity to this character in the world of "The Pitts."
AMANPOUR: I mean, Sherine, to have somebody like Sepideh being an ambassador and an advocate must actually help you, right? Because we know
that this whole global fatigue and with one thing after the other in terms of global crises, some of these really important stories get very short
shrift.
IBRAHIM: Absolutely, absolutely. And I was -- I wanted to bring to this conversation, you know, the voice of another displaced person, a refugee
that I recently met, Christiane. And she spoke about very similar sentiments to what Sepideh was talking about. She expressed to me that she
felt that her life had been uprooted, that her future and that of her children had been jeopardized, that her protections had been compromised,
that everything was quite -- you know, felt quite unknown. And the only thing that sort of helped her come -- helped her and her family survive
this displacement experience was the solidarity and the empathy and the compassion that comes with this experience.
So, it does take a lot of solidarity to come to address these experiences. And I'm very thrilled that Sepideh does the work and calls for the change
that we need to see in this world of massive crisis.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And again, I'm just going to say it, I don't know whether you would, but we live in a world where refugees and migrants are some of
the most pushed back against communities right now. Everywhere you look, in Europe, the United States, everywhere, nobody has a soft spot for refugees.
And this Iran war has exacerbated the issue of displaced. I think so has the war on Lebanon.
I just want to play you, Sherine, a soundbite from an elderly man who saw his entire home and possessions destroyed in the City of Tyre. Here, take a
listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOUSSEF FARES, DISPLACED LEBANESE RESIDENT (through translator): I wanted to go and see the house, I swear to God, by my children's lives. I went on
foot from here to Tyre. When I saw the scene, I started to cry. I'm telling you, I couldn't, you couldn't even look at a single room. It was dark from
the soot. We had a shop with millions worth of goods. It is all gone. Not a single lira is left. Yes, indeed. Thank God. Thank God my children remained
safe and we were not hurt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, it is just extraordinary. This man was actually -- is actually 90 years old. Just briefly, Sherine, tell me the state of what's
happening in Lebanon. I was just there recently, but you were there in March actually seeing this particular crisis. And what's become of people
displaced by the war on Iran?
IBRAHIM: Well, a couple of things. In Lebanon itself, you know, we have a, and you've experienced it, over 1.2 million people displaced since the
latest escalations of March the 2nd. And many, many, many of these people are displaced into locations that, you know, are unforgiving, sometimes
unwelcoming. There are, you know, over 700 collective shelters, but they are only housing a fraction of the people who are displaced.
AMANPOUR: Let's talk to Sepideh because really importantly, I mean, look, you're in the United States. Right now, there is, according to CNN, maybe
some plan afoot to strip some 250 American migrants of -- or immigrants, of their U.S. citizenship. And you know the word alien is used. I think you
yourself were teased or bullied by the fact that as a foreigner, you were an alien somehow. And the White House uses that now as its own sort of
weird memes on its website.
So, the atmosphere around migration and refugees, particularly through your own experience in the United States.
MOAFI: I mean, it's overwhelming as somebody who has close proximity to a lived experience and somebody who's bearing witness. My experience at, for
example, you mentioned Zaatari Refugee Camp. The people that I met, I mean, a refugee camp is meant to be a temporary settlement, an emergency shelter.
And I met so many people who had lived there for years and years, women, mothers, who had given birth in the camp and whose children were now nine,
10, 11 years old. I mean, 50 percent of the camp was children.
[13:35:00]
And it's the International Community's fault. We are to blame because we have turned our backs and we have rejected and refugees are stigmatized.
But I will say that despite this reality, these people at Zaatari have taken a plot of land in the middle of the desert in Jordan and blossomed
life there. What was once a tense settlement turned into a bustling city, bustling with life. I met artists there who invited me into their creative
process.
I met health clinic managers, Khulood Al-Ghamasah (ph) and Mohamad Jokhadar was the artist who gave me a tour of the facilities. And I met budding
entrepreneurs and students and educators. And many of the IRC staff who are working there are refugees themselves and are supporting and servicing the
communities that they are from.
And so, while I was deeply moved, I was also disturbed because the best refugee camp is a camp that doesn't need to exist. And it is incumbent upon
all of us to do everything we can to find safe pathways for people to return home if that's possible, and if not to resettle them with welcome
open arms into our countries.
And that's where the IRC's work comes into play that they not only do invaluable work on the ground providing life-saving aid and resources and
care, but also helping refugees resettle. And this is why I'm so committed to the organization because they not only help displaced people change
their story in the media, they help them resettle and rebuild their lives and thrive in their lives. So, their work is more important than ever right
now.
AMANPOUR: Sepideh, thank you so much indeed. And of course, we thank Sherine Ibrahim as well. I just think it's so moving to hear you talk about
all those, I mean, professionals. They've become professionals in their thriving what used to be a tent city in Amman. And we tend to forget that
they're so rich in human resources and potential. And I think it's really great that you've been able to highlight that. So, thank you so much indeed
for joining us.
MOAFI: Thank you so much, Christiane. It's my pleasure. Thank you.
IBRAHIM: Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: We turn now to a deeply personal story of race in America. 100 years ago, two black brothers from New Orleans were separated by the harsh
reality of the Jim Crow laws. One lived as a black man in Louisiana. The other, with lighter skin, moved to Chicago, passing as white.
Journalist Susan Saulny uncovered this story by tracing her own ancestry. And she joins Michel Martin to discuss the legacy of this long-buried
family secret.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Susan Saulny, thank you so much for talking with us.
SUSAN SAULNY, FORMER NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK Times: Thank you for having me.
MARTIN: And I understand that you are joining us from a very meaningful and very beautiful location. Where are you?
SAULNY: I'm in the Lower Garden District of New Orleans. I'm on Prytania Street. Inside the home, believe it or not, of my great-great-grandfather,
Colonel Joseph H. DeGrange.
MARTIN: Amazing, amazing. And one of the reasons this is amazing is that your article begins with a family mystery and it ends with a family
reunion.
[13:40:00]
So, but before we get to that --
SAULNY: And the reunion was right here in this house.
MARTIN: Was right there in that house. So, let me start with what was the mystery?
SAULNY: Well, my grandfather and his brother spent time in an orphanage in New Orleans in the 1910s, and it was a pretty grim existence. They aged out
of the at a time of harsh segregation in the South, and one of the brothers, Edward, who was just a few shades lighter than my grandfather,
George, decided to take a chance on a better life in Chicago as a white man, and his skin color allowed him to do that. My grandfather, being just
a shade or two darker, didn't make that choice. I don't know if he wanted to or chose not to, but the reality is he stayed in New Orleans and lived
as a black man.
So, what we have from that point are parallel lives of one brother living in New Orleans and having children and grandchildren, and one brother
living as white in Chicago and having children and grandchildren. We have a very neat 100-year arc to look at. So, that Edward left the family and
passed for white in another city, that was the secret. That was the secret that I've known since I was a little girl, and we were taught not to talk
about.
MARTIN: That's so -- I have so many questions. How did this come up when you were a child?
SAULNY: Well, my grandfather still loved his brother, and I think he wished him the best in life, and if Edward thought that this was his
opportunity to go chase the American dream, George wanted him to do it. George was a protective older brother, and he wanted us to protect Edward
by not talking about it because there was a tremendous amount of risk involved, and we're talking about a time when a man, a black man found to
be posing as white could face enormous violence, mob violence, perhaps even lynching. He could be accused of race fraud, lose his job, lose his home.
So, in my grandfather's time, this secret was truly life and death, and he passed that sense onto his children, who knew that their uncle passed, but
that they weren't to talk about it, and then my parents' generation passed it on to me and my cousins, of which there are 30. So, yes, George created
a really big family.
MARTIN: He may not have been rich in possessions, but he was rich in love.
SAULNY: Right. We see that both brothers were able to create things from scratch. In Edward's case, there was a smooth trajectory to the middle
class and homeownership and buying a car, and the children went to college. Some went on to law school. Everyone had a nice amount of success and
achievement, comfortable lifestyles, summers on Lake Michigan.
In George's case, now remember, same upbringing of these boys, just a few shades apart in color. George didn't have those opportunities in New
Orleans. George couldn't find work except as a bricklayer, and he laid bricks until he retired. He was living in poverty for quite a lot of time
during the Depression, and I've heard stories about how he burned his own furniture for firewood when it was cold, or how he would go look for food
that had fallen off of cargo ships unloading at the Mississippi River docks.
And this was a man who had a good amount of intelligence and ambition, but you can see how race plays out across time, across families, and that's
what I was hoping this article would show, that, you know, we know passing happened as a historical fact, but what was the emotional toll, the
psychological toll, and how did the pain morph and mutate over generations? That's what I was hoping my story would show to add to the conversation, to
see the real lived experiences of an actual family going through this black and white, north and south.
MARTIN: But the immediate spark, as I understand it, was Pope Leo, the first American pope. His family had Creole roots in New Orleans, and how
did that make you kind of think differently about your family, or did it?
SAULNY: It did. I remember when the American pope was announced and the amount of excitement I saw in the media all across the country, and then
later that night, for it to be confirmed by a local historian here in New Orleans and also the Archdiocese of New Orleans, that in fact, Pope Leo's
maternal grandparents lived in the Seventh Ward of New Orleans. This is a historic center of Afro-Creole culture, and that they identified as black
and mulatto while here, but then lived as a white family in Chicago.
[13:45:00]
It really -- it sort of felt like the quiet part of so many Creole family histories was just set out loud, and I thought I could help explain not the
pope's story in particular, but the circumstances of the time that might lead someone to make a decision that way.
MARTIN: Let's go back to where you are. That is a grand house.
SAULNY: Yes.
MARTIN: But how is it that your grandfathers were living in poverty if their grandfather lived in that house? What's the story there?
SAULNY: That's a really great question, and that's the crux of it all. So, this house was built in the mid-1800s, and the owner, my great-great-
grandfather, used enslaved labor to build wealth and was someone who fought for the South in the Civil War, and he had really strong and certain ideas
about the separation of the races.
His son thought differently, and his son, my great-grandfather Ned, ended up having a very open relationship with a black woman in the city who lived
just a few miles away in Treme, which is, you know, the historic heart of Creole culture. I would say a lot of white men at the time had second
families or secret families, but what was different about this relationship is that Ned and Minerva lived openly.
Ned was different for his time, and I've tried to figure out why, and I think that maybe some of his formative years were during Reconstruction,
and maybe he had a more optimistic spirit about what the future was going to be like for African Americans. Maybe he thought it would be easier over
the long run than indeed it turned out to be, but long story short, Ned and his father had a falling out over this because you can imagine a
Confederate veteran son who is openly living and having children with a black woman. The colonel who lived here in this house did not approve.
And so, when the children's mother died young and Ned found himself alone with those children, my great-great-grandfather, who lived here in 8,000
square feet of space, did not take them in. And that's how they ended up in an orphanage called the LaFon Asylum for Colored Boys.
MARTIN: So, how did Edward wind up getting to Chicago? How did that happen?
SAULNY: I think Edward, through his father, had some exposure to the white world and probably picked up on how to pretend to be a part of it. And with
his light complexion, I think one day in his late teens or early 20s, he decided there's nothing for me in New Orleans. No parents, no money, no job
opportunities, not much education.
I haven't interviewed him since he died in the 1970s, but I'm imagining that he had to make a very hard choice between family and survival, and he
chose survival. And I don't know as well whether my grandfather was upset about this or distraught or supported it, but however he felt, in the end,
he decided to keep the secret and wish for the best for his brother.
MARTIN: So, let's fast forward. You always knew that you had this ancestor who passe blanc, right? You weren't really sure how the, for want of a
better term, I'll call it the white branch of the family, would react to your queries. What were you anxious about or worried about?
SAULNY: I think there were a lot of things. I think my grandfather's voice was still in the back of my, it was in my ear somewhere, saying, we just
leave well enough alone. For what reason? Just leave things alone. And so, I was going against my grandfather's wishes.
So, just personally, as a granddaughter who's somewhat obedient, somewhat, I knew I was doing something that Grandpa George might not have approved
of, right? And then there's the fact that 20 years or so ago, I lived in Chicago, and I could have reached out to them, but yes, think of the amount
of racial animus in our country right now and the polarization and the fact that hate crimes based on race are rising and not going down.
I remember thinking, maybe this is something I just don't want to touch. I prioritized it now for a whole host of different reasons that have to do
with being more mature myself and dropping those assumptions about how the other side would react. And also, I thought, we're in a society now that is
so deeply connected online and in every other way, it's hard to keep a secret these days.
I had a feeling that I'd be giving them information that maybe they already knew or at least had an inkling of, and sure enough, that turned out to be
the case.
MARTIN: So, how did you go about finding them? And, you know, of course, here's the big reveal, how did they react when you reached out?
SAULNY: Right. Well, I had a good amount of research help, and I thank the New York Times for that.
[13:50:00]
So, we used all sorts of ancestry tools, and beyond that, I looked for obituaries. I looked on social media. We looked in old newspapers. There
was a lot written in ancient French in New Orleans. We just tried to gather every bit of information we could about my grandparents and great-
grandparents and their descendants.
And then it just came down to the very gentle reaching out and just hoping for the best. And I reached out with short messages, either over social
media or, you know, if I found an email address or maybe in a search, we'd come up with a phone number.
But I broke through, I say, first with one cousin. Her name is Christine. And I got such a positive reaction from her. I was really encouraged to
keep going. As soon as she saw the message, she wrote back like something to the effect of, oh, hey, yes, of course, I would love to. When can we
talk? And then through Christine, I found out that she had longstanding questions that she wanted answered. And she said, cousin Lauren feels this
way, too, and cousin Lauren feels this way, too.
And so, through one person, I learned of other people, and I just slowly made my way through the family tree, introducing myself as someone who
shared a common ancestor, and also pointing out pretty quickly that I was a writer and reporter and that I'd want to share our story.
MARTIN: When you first encountered some of the family members, when you all first met each other, there were tears.
SAULNY: Oh, yes.
MARTIN: There were tears.
SAULNY: Yes.
MARTIN: Say more about that.
SAULNY: When Edward left Louisiana and New Orleans, he left his culture. He left his kinship ties. He carried a secret. Along with his wife, she was
also a very light complexioned Creole from Louisiana who was passing in Chicago as a white woman. So, the two of them were bonded by their cover
stories. And I think they must have lived with quite a bit of isolation because of fear. If you get too close to someone, maybe they'll figure
something out.
So, one thing Christine described to me was always wanting extended family and wanting to know more about where they came from and who their
grandparents were and things like that. And then they didn't have that sense that I grew up with in New Orleans of an enormous sprawling family
and very clear lineage. And I think they wanted that.
And when you long for that all your life, and then one day, it's finally explained to you why you didn't have it. And then you have it because we
were all there with open arms. I think the emotion of it was just overwhelming to them.
MARTIN: Does anyone not feel that way?
SAULNY: It's a totally understandable, legitimate question. I think anger is among the responses that a person could have, especially in the past,
right? You know, why him and not us? And was it a selfish and escapist thing to do?
I think when I was a little girl, and I first heard the story of the man in the picture who left the family, say I'm like eight, nine or 10, I thought,
what, we weren't good enough for him? Why did he leave? And I may have had these feelings that were anger, but I didn't understand everything then. As
I grew up, I understood more. And I can see him as a fuller person and with a lot of empathy. And now, of course, I totally understand that he was
stuck in a terrible system that forced hard choices on people who I'm sure would have rather do other things with their lives.
But the system of judging people along color lines, and then meting out opportunity along those lines is illogical, absurd, and completely
arbitrary. And that's what I want to show with this family story. And what I'd hope, you know, that the story gives us an opportunity to think deeply
about our own racial history in this country and how it plays out in families across time.
MARTIN: Susan Saulny, thank you so much for talking with us.
SAULNY: My pleasure, Michel. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And finally, hammering home the resilience of Ukrainians, literally, workers began repairs to the roof of the Pechersk Lavra
Monastery in Kyiv after it was badly damaged in a major attack by Russia on Monday.
Now, Putin has long positioned himself as a defender of Christianity. But this Ukrainian cathedral complex is a UNESCO World Heritage site, which
traces its roots all the way back almost 1,000 years. The rush to repair it demonstrates, one more time, Ukraine will not allow Putin to break its
will.
And that's it for now. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
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