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Amanpour
Interview With Secretary Of The Smithsonian Institution Lonnie G. Bunch III; Interview With "Contrapposto" Author Dave Eggers; Interview With "World War II With Tom Hanks" Executive Producer Jon Meacham. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 03, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LONNIE G. BUNCH III, SECRETARY OF THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION: I think it's really important that we have a commitment to telling the complete story of
America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: America turns 250 under a president who's been pushing his executive power to the limits, waging war often against history itself. I
ask Lonnie Bunch, the head of the Smithsonian, how the country should be approaching this milestone birthday.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE EGGERS, AUTHOR. "CONTRAPPOSTO": We're about to lose an entire generation who will never speak authentically in their own voice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- what do we really want from art, and how can we protect human creativity as A.I. keeps gaining ground? I sit down with novelist Dave
Eggers to explore those questions and his new novel, "Contrapposto."
And also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON MEACHAM, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "WORLD WAR II WITH TOM HANKS": It begins in a very familiar way, the strong versus the weak. A desire for territory,
a desire for nationalistic control.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- learning new lessons from the darkest corners of the past. Historian Jon Meacham tells Walter Isaacson about his epic 20-part World
War II documentary series narrated by the Oscar-winning actor Tom Hanks.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
America turns 250 this Saturday, an occasion years in the planning that organizers hoped would bring the country together and get crowds out to
celebrate together. The reality, though, is proving a little different. After President Trump made clear that he wanted to transform the nation's
anniversary into his own personal victory lap.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Just like those patriots of 1776 over the past 17 months, we have taken power back from the far-off political class.
They're trying to gain it back, but it's not going to happen. We have reclaimed our sovereignty, regained our liberty, restored our prosperity,
and we have saved our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, that is President Trump's view. But at the same time, his administration keeps attacking America's diverse cultural heritage and
keeps trying to dictate how America should view itself.
The man in charge of keeping the nation's memory has his own views. Lonnie Bunch is head of the Smithsonian Institution, and he oversaw the creation
of the Museum of African-American History, roles which have put him at loggerheads with President Trump. I spoke to him just ahead of the holiday
weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Lonnie Bunch, welcome to the program.
LONNIE G. BUNCH III, SECRETARY OF THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION: Thank you. Glad to be with you.
AMANPOUR: Well, it is a momentous time for us to speak, especially with you, because of all that you've done to preserve American history and
because of the -- you know, the winds of some resistance that seem to be coming the way of American history right now.
But you have said that the 250th anniversary is the perfect time to explore and explain our country. How so?
BUNCH III: Well, in many ways, it's an opportunity to actually get people to think about history and to help people understand what history really
is, that history is really about ambiguity, complexity, nuance, debate.
And so, the more that we can help people understand the complexity of this nation, the diversity of this nation, the better it is, because in many
ways, history is as much about today and tomorrow as it is about yesterday. And this is one of those moments to use yesterday to help shape today.
AMANPOUR: Except for that the administration, this current one, doesn't seem to want to do that. Just in terms of diversity, they -- you know,
since 2.0 and the inauguration, there's been an active anti-DEI, even the Smithsonian, even you are in the crosshairs. How do you rise above that?
BUNCH III: I think it's really important that we have a commitment to telling the complete story of America, to tell a story that really is a
story of many peoples who have shaped this nation, some that people want to not talk about.
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But I think our job is to say, how do we tell an accurate history driven by scholarship that's nonpartisan, that challenges America to live up to its
ideals, that celebrates America, but also celebrates that the great strength of America is that people have voted, debated, pushed to help
America live up to those ideals. So, it's our job to tell an accurate, complex, and truthful history.
AMANPOUR: So, before I get to some -- to ask you to react to some of what's coming at you from the administration, I want you to talk about in this
vein, when you say we have to celebrate everything, everybody, and all the U.S. achievements.
You tell a story in your memoir about a -- you know, as a young historian, you met Princy Jenkins. At the time, he was a man in his '90s, grandson of
enslaved people at a plantation in South Carolina. And he told you, as a historian, your job better be to help people remember not just what they
want to remember, but what they need to remember. How did those words first, you know, hit you, and how do you think about them now at this time?
BUNCH III: You know, when he said that, I realized that those words were going to shape the rest of my career, that it really was important to
understand what people knew, so that you can sort of celebrate those stories, but to also say, but it's also important to understand stories
that you may not want to know, because they're all part of shaping who we are.
And so, for me, Princy Jenkins' words are really my North Star. Every day, I think about the fact that he challenged me to make sure I help people
become better by understanding the complexity of the past.
AMANPOUR: So, you've made it very clear that you plan to keep those words, you know, at the center of your celebrations, to understand the complexity
of the past, not to allow any forces of politics to diminish what you want to show via the Smithsonian. And there, you have co-curated basically the
centerpiece of the exhibit for the 250th called American Aspirations.
What did you set out to do there? Apparently, you chronicle through more than 30 objects taken from the Smithsonian collection.
BUNCH III: What I wanted to do was to say that America is as much an ideal as it is a place, and that many of those ideals really can be traced to
Jefferson's words in Declaration of Independence, that, for me, the Declaration of Independence challenges us to be a nation in pursuit, in
pursuit of fairness, in pursuit of opportunity, in pursuit of sort of new horizons.
So, what I wanted to do was to take Jefferson's ideas to say, it's important to celebrate and understand those words because, really, for 250
years, people have done everything they can to make those words concrete, to make those words accessible, to make those words meaningful to everybody
in America. So, I wanted to look at that by saying here are certain aspirations, aspirations of fairness, of hope. And how do we use one or two
objects?
Because, as you know, at the Smithsonian, you come to an exhibition, there are hundreds of objects. I wanted you to have a very intimate experience. I
wanted you to start by looking at the desk that Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence on and to use those moments to get you not just
to look at the past but to think about what that means to us today.
And so, the challenge is really saying take a few objects, let people have an intimate experience with those objects, and basically use those to have
people grapple with what it means to be an American, what it means to understand our history, what it means to understand the fullness of our
history.
AMANPOUR: And we're looking at some of those images right now. And, of course, Jefferson may be slightly complicated. I'm going to ask you what
you think about it because while he wrote the basic creed of American democracy, that all men are created equal, I'd like to think he might have
added all people in today's world, that he was also a slave owner. He had enslaved more than 600 people over the course of his life.
How do you reconcile that contradiction? How should people all these years later reconcile that?
BUNCH III: I mean, I would suggest that the way -- one of the ways to understand Jefferson is to understand who he was in the fullness, that he
was a slave owner, that he understood what the lack of freedom meant because he saw it every day.
And yet, I think the challenge is to recognize that through the words, even though his words were not for everyone, we've taken those words and said
they're part of who we are as Americans. And so, what you see is whether it's women, abolitionists, immigrants, using those words to say we just
want America to live up to those ideals that are outlined by Jefferson.
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So, for me, Jefferson is a complicated person. Race is really crucially important to understanding who we are as a people, but it's also important
to say those ideals that he penned are ideals that people have now seized and tried to make them accessible and meaningful for everybody. That's the
challenge and that's the contradiction.
AMANPOUR: And again, it's especially the challenge now as there seems to be a deliberate attempt to roll back and to sort of almost sideline that
history. And we're also in a moment -- I mean by the administration, not by people, but by the administration, we're also in a moment where one of the
other key principles of America, i.e., the welcoming of, you know, bring me your tired, your huddled masses, is also under threat.
And you have, as part of your collection here, you also have a model of the Statue of Liberty. It's the one that was -- we know it was designed by the
French designer Frederic Auguste Bartholdi, presented to the United States in 1884. And let's not forget that it stands, she stands, on broken chains.
Tell me what that means. What should people know about that today in the context of the idea of migration and refugee and asylum?
BUNCH III: I mean, in one way is that the role of the Smithsonian is to give you different lenses into a subject, to give you more complexity. And
so, on the one hand, when you take that maquette that really was a gift from France to the United States, we now see it as a symbol of immigration,
right? The Emerald Azeroth poem, and it's something that has greeted so many immigrants coming into New York Harbor. And that's unbelievably
important and very, very powerful.
But it's also the fact that she is standing on broken chains. And it was really given to us by France to celebrate the fact that the United States
abolished slavery. So, in many ways, what I want people to understand is that, yes, it's a story of immigration. It raises fundamental questions
about how we are a nation of immigrants and what does that mean.
But it also helps us understand that slavery was so central that even the French said, we celebrate America because they took that amazing step to
abolish slavery in 1865.
AMANPOUR: So, let me now bring up some of the invectives, if I could, I don't know, use that term, from the president himself. Quote, "The
Smithsonian is out of control," in caps, "where everything discussed is how horrible our country is, how bad slavery was." Respond.
BUNCH III: Well, I think that, first of all, if you go through the Smithsonian, as I do almost every day, and you look at the stories we tell,
it is a complex story, but it's a story that celebrates America in many ways, but also argues that there's nothing wrong with helping a nation
realize that it's a work in progress, that people have struggled to end slavery, struggled to make sure there was fairness in terms of issues of
gender.
So, for me it really is not saying we're trying to criticize America or say what a horrible place, we're just simply saying you celebrate America
because in some ways America has grappled with some of the greatest challenges it's faced.
And that for me what's important is I believe that Americans are this amazingly brave people who, you know, defeated Nazism and the like, and it
scares me when people aren't brave enough to face their history. And in some ways, you have to face it anyway. You know, there's no way of running
away from the impact of immigration or the impact of labor issues.
So, for me it's really an opportunity to basically say, let us understand America. We celebrate, we commemorate, but the goal is to understand. And
you can only understand it when you grapple with the complexity of who we once were. It shapes who we are today and hopefully can point us towards a
better future.
AMANPOUR: And it's hard. It's a challenge for you. I mean, you have been in the crosshairs, the Smithsonian has been in the crosshairs of this
administration. There was an executive order by President Trump accusing the Smithsonian of promoting, quote, "narratives that portray American and
Western values as inherently harmful and oppressive." And it's called for an end to your spending on programs and exhibitions that, quote, "degrade
shared American values, divide Americans by race, or promote ideologies inconsistent with federal law."
Is that what you do, Secretary Lonnie Bunch?
BUNCH III: You know what we do? We try to tell a complicated story that is driven by the best nonpartisan scholarship we have. And that, candidly, I
learn when everybody offers criticism, I listen. I say, are we doing the best we can? How do we convey the stories in a way that the public will
understand?
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But the reality is the North Star for us is the notion of how our scholarship helps America understand the complexity, the nuance, the
subtlety. It's a hard thing to do. Many people want simple answers to complex questions. Our job is to sometimes do that, but more importantly,
give you questions and answers that will make you understand the complexity of who we are as a nation.
And I take great pride in what the Smithsonian has done. It is not a place that attacks America. It is a place that celebrates America by helping
people understand the complexity of who we are.
AMANPOUR: You know, I was struck by some of the research I read, and you spoke about a meeting with President Trump, and I believe you showed him
around the Smithsonian. And you had a different experience with him than some of these posts would suggest on Truth Social, or some of the executive
order writings, or some of the things that some of his lieutenants, for instance, write. Like Russell Vought, who, you know, is basically saying we
wish to be assured that none of the leadership of the Smithsonian Museums is confused about the fact that the United States has been among the
greatest forces for good in the history of the world.
Tell me how your actual meeting with Trump at the Smithsonian went.
BUNCH III: Well, you know, that was a tour I gave him of the National Museum of African American History and Culture, where I was the founding
director. And candidly, it was a tour where we grappled with the challenges, and he came out saying it was a good experience.
And so, in many ways, I felt that part of the job of the Smithsonian is to give everybody an opportunity to educate, to be educated, to learn
something new. And I think he learned something new as he walked through the museum.
You know, I think that it's important that I am not trying to say the Smithsonian versus the administration. All I'm trying to do is to say that
we want to help America, and we're doing the best we can by being nonpartisan and really being driven by the best scholarship.
AMANPOUR: And how is it going, the exhibit? Are you getting floods and floods of crowds and things? And I also want to ask you how this careful
line that you have to tread as the leader of this great cultural institution at this time, how has it been affecting you?
BUNCH III: Well, I mean, first of all, the Smithsonian has some of the best attendance it's ever had in recent years, and there's a lot of people going
to see the exhibitions because they want to sort of understand America through different lenses.
You know, for me, you know, I am lucky because I get to work with 7,000 gifted public servants every day whose job it is, whether they are scholars
or educators or designers, their job is simply to say we want to help a nation better understand itself, and they do it with amazing dedication.
So, whenever I feel, oh, my goodness, I'm being attacked, I dip into that reservoir that is the Smithsonian, that is the staff, that is the history
of the Smithsonian, that for 180 years the Smithsonian has grappled with science, art, history, culture, in a way to help Americans dip into that
and better understand themselves. That keeps me going no matter what.
AMANPOUR: And you're so devoted, obviously, and so passionate. The New York Times has written that this -- you know, the American Aspirations exhibit
which you curated will probably be the last exhibit you will create, quoting you.
BUNCH III: Well, you know, there's a difference between saying I may not curate another exhibition versus how long I'm going to stay as secretary. I
think that's a distinction.
AMANPOUR: OK.
BUNCH III: You know, I mean, I think I don't have much time to curate anymore.
AMANPOUR: That's what I was trying to get at.
BUNCH III: Yes, I know. You know, the reality is that I've been -- seven years. This is my 37th year at the Smithsonian. It's a place I love better
than anything else other than my family and the New York Yankees. Other than that, the Smithsonian is what I care about. And so, I'm committed to
doing everything I can to help the Smithsonian continue to build on the amazing traditions of 180 years.
At some point, I will step down. But the reality is that as long as I can sort of have the support of the staff, of the Board of Regents, and really
do the work that the American public enjoys and is engaged by, I'm very lucky to be the secretary of the Smithsonian.
AMANPOUR: And we are lucky to have you on our program. Thank you so much for helping us all celebrate the important diversity of America at 250
years old. Lonnie Bunch, thank you so much.
BUNCH III: My great pleasure. Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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AMANPOUR: Now, to a novel that reflects on art, the artist, and the things that sometimes get in the way. "Contrapposto" is the latest project by
author, Dave Eggers. It's a coming-of-age novel and a love story that asks about the value we place on human creativity in a world adjusting for A.I.
And I sat down with Eggers here in London at his publisher's headquarters to talk about the novel and the premium he puts on slow art, a.k.a. reading
and writing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Dave Eggers, welcome back to our program.
DAVE EGGERS, AUTHOR. "CONTRAPPOSTO": Thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: So, tell me, "Contrapposto," am I pronouncing it right?
EGGERS: It's as close as I could get to, yes.
AMANPOUR: What does it mean? Why did you call your new book that?
EGGERS: Well, I went to art school for a bit. And in art school, it's like first day. When you're drawing, it's the most common pose, which is sort of
Michelangelo's David. You're unbalanced. You're leaning on one foot, tilting shoulders this way, hips another way. It's like a dramatic
narrative pose.
AMANPOUR: And I read one of the reviews, they're quite funny, you do go off on all your rants, which I'm going to get to. But one of the reviews, you
invited the interviewer, the critic, to paint or draw with you.
EGGERS: We still do a lot of it. We bring models into our office at McSweeney's. We hire them, and all of us art school refugees that work at
our company draw from life. It's so -- it's a joyous, meditative kind of thing. Nothing comes of it. Nobody sees these drawings. But we have two or
three hours of sort of bliss.
AMANPOUR: And did it get you into the mood for this particular novel about being an artist?
EGGERS: Yes, I picked up my life drawing again. I hadn't done so much of it since art school. But -- so, I had to refresh my memory. But it's been
something I've been doing a couple times a year ever since I was 22.
AMANPOUR: So, finally, you've written the novel about the artist, right? So, we'll get into the story. But I first wanted you to read a little bit
of a passage about the concept of drawing.
EGGERS: This is Cricket, who's a young art student.
AMANPOUR: And the protagonist.
EGGERS: Yes. Because he'd had an hour, though, Cricket had time to sketch, then correct, then sketch, then refine. He measured proportions and
improved. He grew more confident with each pass on his drawing and realized, was almost embarrassed to finally realize, that much of the
rightness of the drawing, of any drawing, came through time and diligence and discernment. It came from work and humility.
Being able to recognize if something is wrong and knowing how to address it. There was room for talent. Yes, talent was much of it. But he was
surprised by the role of sheer doggedness. The determination to get it right.
AMANPOUR: So, I'm impressed by, when you read that paragraph, you really are promoting the art of slow, doing things well, having the patience to
accomplish, whether it's writing or drawing. And it stands in deep conflict to everything that is so fast right now.
EGGERS: I think right now, if you teach --
AMANPOUR: Or contrast.
EGGERS: Yes, if you teach kids the same methods, you know, you learn how to draw with proportion and spending hours, we would still spend three hours
on one pose to get it right. Anybody can be taught academic, accurate drawing. And really, the ability to see, truthfully. And so, I think, yes,
it's such an antidote to this immediate gratification.
[13:25:00]
But we teach it with young writers, too. Diligence, humility, revise, revise, revise.
AMANPOUR: So, I want you to give me your anti-A.I. rant.
EGGERS: Well --
AMANPOUR: What do you say to a 10-year-old, for instance, who wants to be a writer?
EGGERS: You have a 10-year-old who is unprecedented in the history of the world. There's never been anyone like that person. It can't be. And so,
they have so much to say. They have seen the world only the way that they can see it. So, to think about that one-of-a-kind-in-the-history-of-
humanity person shopping their vision out to a machine. How tragic that is. That's beyond dystopian. It cannot be allowed. Not even one ounce of A.I.
can be allowed in the humanities in youth education.
AMANPOUR: So, that's a pretty bold declaration. I absolutely get where it comes from. Because you're creative. Because of -- you know, we're all
individuals and no machine can do what we can do. But are you swimming against the tide?
EGGERS: I think this summer is the summer. If you talk to teachers, everybody's trying to get policies in place and get it straight before the
fall. And most teachers I talk to are absolutists. No amount of A.I. is safe.
And they spend 20 hours a week policing their kids now. Did they cheat? Did they use this? Did they do that? So, it's made public education teachers,
their jobs so much more difficult. It engenders suspicion. It engenders this unleveled playing field. And it most affects kids who are learning the
second and third language, who are most inclined to cheat because they want to reach grade level quicker.
So, for every one of those students, they become voiceless. So, we're about to lose an entire generation who will never speak authentically in their
own voice unless we say none at all through K through the last year in college.
AMANPOUR: Whoa. K through the last year in college.
EGGERS: It solves nothing. There was never a problem that this tool solved. We were doing quite well as writers. In this country, you had a few good
writers. And so, what was it there to solve? Nothing. It improves nothing in the humanities.
AMANPOUR: So, now, let's get to the story of "Contrapposto." So, it's Cricket and is it Olympia?
EGGERS: Olympia, yes.
AMANPOUR: Exactly. And they are -- they meet as young kids at school, right? And they want to be artists. So, it's that journey plus their own
relationship. Give us a little synopsis.
EGGERS: Well, they meet when he's nine and she's 10, and she's this exotic, much more worldly, eloquent, knowledgeable person. And she gives him his
first public commission, which is to deface a public play structure with horrible things. But they say these horrible things, and he writes them in
Old English calligraphy to make it artful. And so, that to him is his first platform, his first authentic outside audience. And forever after that,
he's devoted to her.
AMANPOUR: And does he get -- what happens to him for defacing this? And it's pornographic, you say, not nice things but --
EGGERS: Yes, I don't know what we could say. Yes. It's --
AMANPOUR: No, you can say it.
EGGERS: It's pretty pornographic. He doesn't know what any of these words mean. He's so sort of naive.
AMANPOUR: She does, though, right?
EGGERS: She knows much more always than he does.
AMANPOUR: And why is she egging him on into that?
EGGERS: Well, she's more of a curator. She's -- forever after, it goes through 66 years in their lives, she's always trying to pull him out of
obscurity, his stubborn unwillingness to compromise even a little bit and to give him a gallery show or, you know, bring him into the professional
art world. And every tiny little concession he can't make, he can't countenance these little compromises. But it frustrates her to no end. But
forever, they're still committed, devoted to each other.
AMANPOUR: You've written, you know, obviously a number of novels, and you've said that, you know, compared to nonfiction, it is much more fun.
Tell me about, especially today, maybe, writing novels.
EGGERS: Well, you know, I sort of alternate. I write nonfiction mostly out of a sense of outrage, and it's not a good way to spend every day. And
then, of course, the nonfiction slog. You write four words, you have to check that fact. You write four more words, you have to check.
Fiction is just fluid. It's liberated. It's totally untethered. I think I had to check three facts at this point. Like, late in the game, I
referenced Turner, and somebody said, well, there's more Turners at the British Museum, or at the Tate than there are at the British Museum. That's
the only fact I remember anybody checking. So --
AMANPOUR: And that was true.
EGGERS: Yes. I mean, I had -- as a backpacker, I saw the Turners in the British Museum, but I guess there's more at the Tate. So, that was the only
real change that was made on a factual level, but it's so much more enjoyable on a day-to-day basis.
And to wake up without an ulcer, you know, to wake up without thinking about Trump, wake up without thinking about destruction of certain tech
companies. So, this was a very healing bath.
AMANPOUR: It's hard to wake up without thinking about Trump because he is everywhere all the time or ways.
EGGERS: Yes. That's --
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: You did write, one of your previous books was, Captain Glory?
EGGERS: "The Captain and the Glory."
AMANPOUR: There you go. "The Captain and the Glory," which I read, and we did actually interview you, but remotely.
EGGERS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: It was one of the best books about Trump that I've ever read. It was incredibly well-constructed in terms of it, not just being a satire,
but that whole dynamic of the master and everybody he's trying to -- you know, trying to rule. Remind us about what you were trying to say then. And
is it worse in 2.0 than you could have ever imagined? Because this was written in 1.0.
EGGERS: Yes, somehow, I wrote that thinking this would have a dent or make a dent in his supporters or his presidency. Somehow this satire did not end
Trump's reign. It was very humbling. And then he got elected again, which I never would have thought in a million years. So, I'm very disappointed in
my countrymen. It's still baffling to me.
But I do think we're on the very, you know, we have a little bit of time left. Midterms come. Impeachment comes after that. Crippled second half of
his term. We don't have long to wait. I've been guaranteeing everybody in Europe.
AMANPOUR: You've got the whole thing mapped out.
EGGERS: I have every date. I keep a calendar. We're going to publish it of every date from here on out. And so, it will kind of mirror the second half
of his first term where he was just fighting lawsuits and subpoenas the whole time.
AMANPOUR: But what would you write today if you were writing "The Captain of the Glory" with 2.0 in the rearview mirror?
EGGERS: Well, really what I would like to write more about is undocumented immigrants hiding in churches. So, I was going to -- I was working on a
book called "The Recent History of Families Hiding in Churches" because in both terms, it's the last place ICE will go. So, every church in rural
counties all over America, there's families living in churches.
And it's so un-American. It's so profoundly sad that we live under this veil of hate and suspicion and we're OK with families hiding for years at a
time.
AMANPOUR: And then you write this sort of redemptive book about joy and art and relationships and contacts in your latest book, "Contrapposto."
EGGERS: Yes, you have to, I think, give a little bit to that, to the outrages of the day. And then you have to reserve some time, some space to
do something about what you love. So, it's sometimes what you hate, what you loathe, what you want to change. This is really just a celebration of
art and the thing that I, you know, grew up sort of loving most.
AMANPOUR: One of your other major books was "The Circle." Again, it was taking on the idea of tech and us being ruled by tech. And I think it was
made into a film with Tom Hanks?
EGGERS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: There you go. People who haven't read the book surely have seen the film. Again, it was how do you sort of get yourself out of this
control? And I'm just kind of struck by how you still only have a flip phone, as far as I can gather.
EGGERS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: How you take yourself off to your boat in San Francisco to write so that you're not tempted. Tell me a little bit about your -- you know,
your working habits, your mental health, your resistance to tech.
EGGERS: Yes, I was enjoying life a lot before all of this came about. So, none of it was solving anything that I needed to solve. So, there's nothing
on a smartphone that I wanted. I would use one if there was something on it that I needed, but there isn't.
And so, yes, I have the flip phone. It doesn't work abroad. So, it's just a rock in my pocket right now. And then, I -- but I do have to be really far
away from the internet to get any work done. So, if I'm tempted or if I have it, like in the hotel tonight, I will have the internet and then I'll
spend four hours on YouTube. And so, I can't be trusted around the internet.
But mostly I need isolation. I need to be free for eight hours a day to get anything done. And that's about eight hours on the boat in the writing
position to get maybe 45 minutes of actual work done. That's my ratio. It's very sad.
AMANPOUR: Wow. Eight hours to get 45 minutes.
EGGERS: Sometimes maybe an hour's worth. I mean, it's --
AMANPOUR: Well, it's important to know that for movie writers.
EGGERS: Yes, they -- you do need to sort of give yourself selfishly that amount of time.
AMANPOUR: I mean, and yet, to be fair, writing has always been called a lonely, you know, job, a lonely business, a lonely craft, because you can't
sit around, unlike for a TV program where there's a writer's room and all the rest of it, right? I mean, you --
EGGERS: Well, it's lonely until -- and then you get in community. So, I come home and my wife, who's a novelist, she has to read what I wrote. And
then if she likes it, for many years, for decades, the next reader was my old high school teacher, Peter Ferry. He got stuck reading every manuscript
after Vandala. And until he passed, he was still my teacher.
And then after that, there's always a community of writers in any given city where you reach out to each other, you meet up, you talk through
things if you're stuck. So, it doesn't have to be quite as lonely and solitary as myth would provide.
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: So, I mean, what you're saying sounds really hopeful. It does. It sounds hopeful. It sounds full of context, full of possibility, full of
joy, full of community.
EGGERS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: That must raise your optimism quotient in a world which obviously you find quite difficult to navigate politically right now.
EGGERS: Well, I go from here to the Ministry of Stories, which is a writing center for kids that Nick Hornby and some other friends started.
AMANPOUR: The novelist Nick Hornby.
EGGERS: Yes. And so, there, every day, including today, there will be a field trip where kids of all ages will gather together with tutors, adults,
and they'll work one-on-one, handwriting poems and stories that they'll publish in beautiful books.
So, we've -- over the years, all of these writing centers, it started with 826 Valencia in San Francisco. There's 74 around the world now. We've
published about 10,000 books over that time, all written by kids, and now we have a repository called the International Library of Young Authors in
San Francisco. It's all books written by kids.
So, if you give them the space and encouragement and then you lift up that work, you amplify it, you put it in a book, you put it in a library, kids
will always choose to work with a human. They will always choose. They will run through walls to be published.
But if we assume all they want is digital media, then they get it and they have no choice. We have to give them a choice. They do want human contact.
They do want to write. They do want their authentic voices heard. But we have to give them that chance. We have to be shoulder-to-shoulder with
them, shining a light on that, every time.
We've been at it for 25 years. I guarantee they want it. Always they will choose the human. They will even choose paper. We have zine writing
classes, handwriting, everything. They will always choose that, but we've got to give them a choice.
AMANPOUR: So, just quickly, because I have to ask you, there's many, you know, regulations afoot in Australia and Britain, everywhere, to try to
keep under-16s off social media.
EGGERS: I'm all for it. Every man.
AMANPOUR: And do you think it works? They won't just find workarounds?
EGGERS: They will sometimes find workarounds. My kids are 17 and 20. They tell me about every workaround. But we do have to protect them. It's like
we protect them from so many things that we know are dangerous. Cigarettes, alcohol, you know, steroids, vaping, whatever. We all have regulations
about everything because we care about them.
For some reason, this is the Wild West. Oh, we can't restrict them. When this thing is like, it has taken so many young lives. It has made so many
millions of kids deeply depressed. And if you talk to any teenager, my son was just on a two-week retreat. No phones for anybody. Best two weeks of
his life, he said, because nobody else was online. It wasn't FOMO. They didn't have to, like, worry about what they were doing. They all want the
adults in their lives to make a ruler, to protect them. It's our job to do that. And when we cede our responsibility, we deserve the young people of
this world.
This is a generation at stake, and we've got to make a stand. According to all the science, all the medical studies, every little bit says every extra
minute on screens is harmful.
AMANPOUR: Well, they will be reading "Contrapposto," and every minute reading will be regenerative. Well, thank you very much indeed, David.
EGGERS: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: We turn now to a new documentary series that's drawing fresh lessons from the most devastating conflict in modern history.
[13:40:00]
TOM HANKS, ACTOR, "WORLD WAR IL WITH TOM HANKS": For six dark years, the world was on fire. Six dark years, the world was on fire.
A conflict that toppled empires and reshaped the modern world.
No part of the globe was untouched. No life unchanged.
The Second World War is the largest event in human history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: "World War II with Tom Hanks" takes viewers across the full scope of the conflict, from the rise of fascism in Europe to the fall of Berlin,
and on to Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, and the Pax Americana that followed. Hanks helms the 20-part series, thus continuing his vast contribution to
World War II history, for instance, with films like "Saving Private Ryan."
Jon Meacham is an executive producer on the series, and he spoke to Walter Isaacson about the parallels that he sees between then and now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Christiane. And Jon Meacham, welcome back to the show.
JON MEACHAM, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, "WORLD WAR II WITH TOM HANKS": Thank you, Walter.
ISAACSON: You're the executive producer, one of the stars of this 20-part series on "World War II with Tom Hanks." Tell me, why is this a good time
to be reexamining World War II?
MEACHAM: So, as Tom says in the narration, it's the largest event in human history. It begins, as you know, in the 1930s. We can argue it begins even
before that because of the fallout from the First World War.
But it begins in a very familiar way, the strong versus the weak, a desire for territory, a desire for nationalistic control, for racial superiority.
And it ends with the capacity for us to destroy all of human civilization with the splitting of the atom.
And in that arc, you have so many stories, so many instances of how our world now works, from the American productive capacity to the ideals of
democracy versus autocracy, and the essential, essential point of never again, of never allowing the attempted extermination of an entire people.
ISAACSON: Well, wait, you say it's the most important event maybe in almost human history, modern history. What did it really change?
MEACHAM: Well, it ended autocracy at the heart of Europe. It ended the fascist regimes of Germany and Japan and Italy. It showed that the
democracies, for all of their imperfections, for all of the slow 18th century checks and balances, democracies can rise to the occasion when
called upon.
ISAACSON: Well, wait. Do you think now that everybody believes democracy is just going to coast throughout and we're never going to have rises of
autocracy again?
MEACHAM: I don't think there's any coasting involved at all in history at any point. But I do think that the Second World War shows that when the
democracies are aroused, we can prevail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANKS: It's easy to lose sight of the true cost of those years, the human cost. We saw human beings at their absolute worst. But we also saw them at
their absolute best, willing to sacrifice their lives so that others may live.
Every single person had a story. These are the stories that make us who we are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ISAACSON: It ended 80 years ago. Why are people still so fascinated with it?
MEACHAM: You know, either Spielberg or Hanks once said it was good versus evil and grandpa won. And I think there's something to that. I think, as
you know, you and I grew up proximate to the war, right? Both my grandfathers fought. Every -- almost everyone, because of the size of the
armed forces, had some living connection to that war. And I think that it continues to be this moment where it feels, and I think it's important to
point out that the feeling does not match the reality, it feels as if everything worked.
The problem, of course, with that, and the complication, which goes to your question a moment ago, is I think if you ask many Americans, what's the
most important thing we ever did? Some might say the abolition of slavery. Others I think would say winning the Second World War.
[13:45:00]
But let's always remember that we only declared war on Nazi Germany when Nazi Germany declared war on us five days after Pearl Harbor. As Churchill
said, you can always count on the Americans to do the right thing once they've exhausted every other possibility.
And you had these forces with which we still contend unto this hour of nationalism at home, of isolationism, of protectionism, this idea of
Fortress America, this idea that the world's problems are not our problems. And our politics, everything about our economic position in the world grew
out of the Second World War and the tension between, are we going to be internationalist or are we going to be isolationist?
ISAACSON: You wrote a wonderful book, "Franklin and Winston," and it's about Winston Churchill. It's like a love story book. Winston Churchill
courting Franklin Roosevelt and saying, you have to help us, you have to help us. Tell us what that courtship did and whether that's what got the
U.S. into the war.
MEACHAM: Well, it helped. So, Churchill becomes prime minister on the 10th of May, 1940. Remember he said, I felt as if I were walking with destiny
and all my life had been preparation for this hour and for this trial. I was sure I should not fail. He was the only person who was sure he would
not fail.
Roosevelt, who used to keep the cabinet -- he had cabinet meetings on Friday to guarantee they'd work all week. He receives word of Churchill's
appointment. Churchill at that point is 65, which in those days meant something. He had changed parties three times. He was a grand old man of
British politics, but he was seen as very erratic. He was seen as a two- fisted drinker. He was seen as someone who had been wrong about big things in British politics.
And FDR looks at the note and says, well, I guess Winston is the best man England has, even if he is drunk half the time. So, this did not begin
hugely well. Churchill needed to bring Roosevelt into the fold. And one of the things that I think the American people need to remember, and we tend
not to, is how much we owe the British, how much we owe them for standing between the 1st of September 1939 and the 12th of December 1941.
You know, Churchill looked across the Channel and said, Hitler's gone that far, and he'll go no farther.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the Brits on the beach, it's an absolute hellscape. They're subjected day and night to constant aerial bombardment by the
Luftwaffe, strafing, dive bombing, level bombing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The British troops are just on the sand, and each time this happens, they all take what cover they can. And this goes on hour
after hour after hour, as they're waiting for deliverance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ISAACSON: You and I are both biographers, and we write about the effect that humans, you know, the human hand has on history. Sometimes in the
academy at universities, they think, you know, history's made by great forces. So, let me ask you about the two or three people in the core of
this. Had Hitler not come along, had it not been for Hitler, would all of this have happened?
MEACHAM: I don't think so. I don't think there was a -- Germany was obviously reeling from the First World War. There were deep resentments
about the Treaty of Versailles. But there was something about his popular appeal, the vicious cocktail, if you will, of evil that he mixed and served
the German people.
You know, Churchill writes -- Churchill was also -- he was a historian, but was better at people than events in many ways. He has a really interesting
portrait of Hitler in "The Gathering Storm." And he -- it's a tough thing to talk about, but it's worth mentioning. Churchill says he understood
Hitler, not least because if England had been defeated and treated the way Germany was, he understood how a figure like Hitler could arise. And I
think that human element is vital.
ISAACSON: Some of this documentary is so gruesome, it's really hard to watch. Why was there such brutality in World War II?
[13:50:00]
MEACHAM: In many ways, it was -- I don't want to say it was new in warfare, but the mechanization of genocide. The technology, right? Weapons were more
sophisticated. Weapons were more -- were deadlier. And air power brought civilians, the V1 and the V2 rockets that the Germans developed, brought
civilian population into the calculus, into the field of fire.
And I think technology does wonderful things for us, but the technology of war and the speed with which weapons can fire and be deployed has its dark
and lamentable element.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANKS: In less than a month, a major European nation has been removed from the map. In the first 24 hours of the invasion, the Germans take out
railroads, bridges, and airfields. The destruction paves the way for their army to advance deep into Poland.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Polish civilians experience modern war in an unbelievably horrifying way. They see people killed. It's a nightmare.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Poles have a modern army. It's the fifth largest army in the world. And it's equipped with modern tanks, with all sorts of
artillery and armored trains. But Hitler has been putting almost all his resources into equipping the military. The Poles were outgunned.
HANKS: Despite those odds, the Poles are determined to defend their country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ISAACSON: Well, let me then put some points on what you've just been saying and what this documentary says that seem relevant to today, which is we
decided the importance of education. We figured out how to create a middle class that had secure jobs and good wages. We decided how to make things.
We understood the values of democracy. We knew that we'd have to get involved in the world to stop tyranny. Do you think that all those lessons,
we still hold them as true today?
MEACHAM: It's part of the reason to tell this story. It's -- I worry all the time. I think all of us have to, given the last decade in which
nationalism, which is an allegiance to your own kind, has prevailed over a definition of patriotism, which is an allegiance to a creed that whoever
pledges allegiance to our declaration about what you've written to our constitution, to our rule of law, then you can belong.
Nationalism, which was at the heart of the fascist enterprises around the world, is a durable and sneaky virus. And it is part of the human body
politic. And we have to fight it. And it recurs. And it's recurring today, not just in the United States, but around the world.
And so, the lesson of the Second World War seems to me to be as clear and as resonant and as relevant as it has been at any point since 1945, which
is the rule of law, the sanctity of the individual, and a sense of international order in which we see each other not as enemies, but as
neighbors. If we fall away from that, chaos results. And we saw that in the 1930s and 1940s. We saw it in the 19-teens.
And there are autocrats on the march around the world. And what we have learned at our peril is that if we let them march freely, chaos results.
ISAACSON: Tomorrow, we celebrate our 250th, July 4th. There's actually a wonderful speech that I think Franklin Roosevelt gives in 1941 about the
four freedoms, and he invokes the Declaration of Independence. Tell me what you've learned from this documentary and what you're going to be thinking
about on July 4th.
MEACHAM: What we have to remember on the 4th of July and every day is that that was the day that American scripture really came into being. Every
generation can judge itself by the degree to which it lives into the Declaration or the degree to which it falls from it.
That was true at Seneca Falls. It was true for Frederick Douglass. It was true, as you say, for Franklin Roosevelt, who said in his State of the
Union in 1941, he listed the four freedoms, freedom from fear, freedom from want. He listed them, and the phrase in the speech was, we must defend
freedom from fear everywhere in the world. And he repeated the phrase everywhere in the world.
[13:55:00]
And when he was practicing the speech, his aide, Harry Hopkins, said, you know, Mr. President, I would cut the phrase everywhere in the world because
nobody gives a damn about -- no American gives a damn about whether there's freedom in Java. And FDR looked at him and said, well, Harry, the world's
getting so small, they're going to have to care. And I think it was true then, and Lord knows it's true now.
ISAACSON: Jon Meacham, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
MEACHAM: Thanks, Walter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: An epic series, indeed. That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast.
And remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
