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Amanpour
Interview with Georgetown University in Qatar Professor of Government Mehran Kamrava; Interview with Palestinian National Initiative President Mustafa Barghouti; Interview with BFMTV International Reporter Thierry Arnaud; Interview with The New York Times "The World" Newsletter Host Katrin Bennhold. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 09, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
The ceasefire shattered the U.S. and Iran, trading threats and strikes. With a peace deal in the balance, CNN's Fred Pleitgen has the news from
Tehran. And regional expert, Mehran Kamrava, gives his analysis on the state of play from Doha.
Then, terror in the West Bank. With settler violence increasing every day now, Palestinians live under constant threat. Politician Mustafa Barghouti
joins me from Ramallah.
And the far-right ascendant in Europe, with populist Nigel Farage, Marine Le Pen, and Germany's AfD leading in many polls, can the center hold? We
will discuss.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Donald Trump's war with Iran has taken yet another turn, with fresh strikes from both sides rocking the Middle East and leaving the status of the so-
called Memorandum of Understanding more uncertain than ever. Trump claims it's dead, and, of course, the threats continue, too, with the U.S.
president warning strikes could, quote, "get much worse." Tehran vows to retaliate.
Inside Iran, the funeral of the assassinated supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, concludes today. So, let's get the latest from there with CNN's
Fred Pleitgen in Tehran. And CNN operates there only with the permission of the government, but maintains full editorial control of its reports. So,
with that, Fred, what is going on? Right now, it's around about the time of the burial, right, in Mashhad?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Yes, it's absolutely around the time of the burial. And this is really the
culmination, Christiane, of an entire week of ceremonies that have been going on, people call it the marathon funeral ceremonies. I believe it
started last weekend when the bodies of those who were killed lay in state, of course, not just the slain supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, but
several of his family members, including a 14-year-old granddaughter as well, who were part of these ceremonies as the coffins were being brought
around.
First of all, Tehran, the giant procession on Monday that, of course, brought also to Iraq, to the holiest sites there, to Najaf and Karbala, and
culminated today in that burial ceremony in Mashhad, which, of course, is the holiest Shiite site here in Iran, the Imam Reza Shrine.
And really, you could see also on a lot of those videos how many people came to line the streets there, but also the anger that was displayed at
the United States and specifically at U.S. President Donald Trump, with a lot of people holding placards, calling for revenge. And that was the vibe
that we've been getting, really, this entire week that we've been here on the ground in Iran, reporting on all of these events, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Fred, I was going to ask you, as we watch live events and pictures, great big banners of not just the supreme leader, who was
assassinated, but his son, the new supreme leader, who has not been shown. His voice hasn't even been heard in the four months since he's taken up
this role.
But it is, I don't know, interesting, significant that the Iranians are putting this on. They clearly want the world to see a massive show of force
for the regime and seem to feel confident enough to lash out at the United States and the Gulf states while this funeral is going on.
PLEITGEN: Yes, absolutely. And I think that's also part of all of this as well. First of all, of course, they've waited more than four months to put
this funeral ceremony on. For a long time, it wasn't possible because the war was still going on. And then even as the negotiations were going on for
the ceasefire, for the Memorandum of Understanding, the Iranians felt the security situation was still so fragile that they really didn't feel that
they could put this on.
And if you look at the sheer logistics of all of this, the several cities that this happened in, the size of the crowds, and certainly just planning
for all of that will have been a very big undertaking that obviously takes a while to plan.
But I do feel you're absolutely right, Christiane, that right now the government, those in power do feel emboldened. They feel that they've grown
stronger, that they have more support from the population. Of course, we always have to point out there are people who very much opposed the rule of
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and still oppose the system. Nevertheless, they do feel that their power base has been galvanized, and also that more people
here are on their side as well.
[13:05:00]
And then, of course, there is that big factor of the big thing that they've discovered that they feel gives them that huge leverage, and that is the
Strait of Hormuz and their chokehold on the Strait of Hormuz. And of course, what we've been seeing over the past couple of days with those
skirmishes, with those airstrikes from the United States is really the Iranians making clear that they are not going to give up control of the
Strait of Hormuz because they believe that that is their big claim to power here in this region. Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And very briefly, you know, clearly this is a show of force by the regime, but did you get any sense from anybody, privately, off-
camera, or whatever, that they really wish that they could be a change in regime or a change in the life that they're forced to live?
PLEITGEN: Look, there's a lot of people that we've been speaking to who say that they are unhappy. There's very few people who right now speak of a
big change in government or change in regime, but certainly people who feel that they don't have the opportunities that they want to have and who feel
that the situation has gotten more dire, especially over the last couple of months.
Of course, there's a lot of people who have lost their jobs. Prices have been skyrocketing, and inflation is extremely high, and there's a lot of
people who just don't see, really, an end to all of that. They don't see very much in the way of a light at the end of the tunnel.
Now, a lot of those people obviously say they are looking towards these negotiations between the United States and Iran, hoping for sanctions
relief, hoping that at the end of that economic situation in this country could get better, but there's a lot of people also that we've been speaking
to, Christiane, who tell us that they are just simply tired of that situation.
We have to understand that for a very long time, a lot of these folks here have been going through a lot of hardships, and the war itself was
extremely tough on a lot of people, not just as far, of course, as losing jobs as the economic impact, but then also just simply the impact of the
war itself, going through the bombings, going through the nights, when you heard those explosions here in Tehran and in other cities, has really
gotten to a lot of people here on the ground in Iraq, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And to have it all start up again is also a psychological drama for people. Fred Pleitgen, thank you very much from Tehran.
So, let's get more analysis from regional expert Mehran Kamrava. He's a professor of government at Georgetown University in Qatar, and he's joining
me from Doha. Welcome back to our program. You heard everything that Fred said, and I guess you saw those pictures. I mean, they are remarkable. All
the international reporters there have been saying, we've never seen crowds like it. What is your reaction to that?
MEHRAN KAMRAVA, PROFESSOR OF GOVERNMENT, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY IN QATAR: Well, as your reporter just mentioned, Ayatollah Khamenei leaves behind a
mixed legacy, one of tremendous repression and violent crackdown on opposition. But at the same time, there is a sizable chunk of the Iranian
population that really did believe in his legitimacy and his religious mandate.
And so, what we're seeing are genuine outpouring of grief on the part of that population that really does believe in the supreme jurist consult, in
his religious mandate, and believes in the legitimacy of the political system.
AMANPOUR: What do you think and what do you know about the presence of the son, Mojtaba Khamenei, the new supreme leader? I mean, not even showing his
face for any part of this funeral for his own father. I mean, is he actually running things?
KAMRAVA: That's a really good question, Christiane. And it's a question that we're all wondering. Obviously, the official reason why he's been
absent is for security reasons, but that doesn't really make sense because we saw that Iran was host to, as far as they say, something like 90
different delegations from different countries. And so, the security excuse doesn't necessarily work.
We not only have not seen Mojtaba Khamenei, we haven't heard him either. And so, the natural conclusion is that he is injured in the attack that
killed his father and the rest of his family. He's injured in a way that he cannot necessarily be seen in public, nor probably can he speak.
AMANPOUR: All right. Let me ask you now about the bigger picture, the war in the region where you are. Is this going to descend again into a full-out
war? Trump indicated not, but he also indicates that if they continue to lash out, then the U.S. will continue to hit back harder. What do you think
is happening right now?
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KAMRAVA: Well, what we're seeing is kind of not just tit-for-tat, but controlled escalation. Overnight, the United States hit a number of targets
along Iran's southern coast near the Persian Gulf. And the Iranians hit as far as Jordan, not just here in the Persian Gulf region, but they hit
American bases in Jordan.
And so, there's a concerted effort on the part of the Qataris and the Pakistanis and others to make sure that this does not escalate and things
calm down. But there's, of course, the obvious danger that things might escalate beyond control.
I think it's important to also remember that the Iranians and the Americans were supposed to get together here in Doha on Saturday to discuss, to pick
up where they had left off on the technical details of the MOU. And as of yesterday, at least, everybody was wondering if that meeting is still going
to happen.
AMANPOUR: Look, clearly the Iranians are trying to, you know, by whatever means, establish control of the Strait of Hormuz for all the reasons that
we've been talking about for the last four months. Are they at risk of overplaying their hand, not only just miscalculating how much, you know,
they might get back in terms of military strikes, but also just the other nations figuring out workarounds eventually, that making the Hormuz Strait
potentially not as valuable as it used to be?
KAMRAVA: Absolutely. We have seen Iran having a tendency to overplay its hands, going all the way back to the Iran-Iraq war. And repeatedly, what
they've done is they have managed to turn a source of advantage into something that in the long run has not necessarily worked out for them.
And so, there's a real danger that not only would they make the Strait of Hormuz redundant, but they would alienate their neighbors to the extent
that there would be a collective effort on the part of even their supposed friends, like the Qataris, turning against them.
AMANPOUR: So, clearly, the reporting around the first MOU, or the MOU when it came out, suggested that it was very tilted towards Iran. What is it
they don't like about it? Why would they potentially risk the situation in the way that you've just said could be an overplaying of their hand?
KAMRAVA: In so far as Tehran is concerned, there's nothing wrong with the MOU itself. It's the American observance of the MOU that's the problem. And
as far as Tehran is concerned, the latest round of attacks started when the Americans broke the terms of the MOU by trying to sneak out a Qatari naval
vessel through the Omani route of the Strait of Hormuz.
And so, the Iranians were saying this is against the terms of the MOU. Also, Tehran says that during the course of the funeral, the United States
had agreed not to attack Iran, but the attacks commenced as the funeral of a former supreme leader was in progress. And so, Tehran likes the MOU
itself. It's the American observance of the MOU that Tehran sees as a problem.
AMANPOUR: And very briefly, how seriously should we take the reports of divisions within the Iranian structure? You've got the people who we know
in terms of negotiating with the United States, but we're told they're even more hardliners, even more, you know, well, harder hardliners who don't
want this negotiation at all.
KAMRAVA: There's clearly some division inside Iran, but I don't think we should read too much into it because the major decisions come out of
something called the Supreme National Security Council, which has commanders from the Revolutionary Guards, as well as people like Parliament
Speaker Ghalibaf and the president and the foreign minister. So, I think Iran is more united than we think it is from the outside.
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: OK. Professor Kamrava, thank you very much indeed for joining us from Doha.
And coming up, more violence in the occupied West Bank as Israel rapidly expands settlements ahead of national elections. I speak to veteran
Palestinian politician, Mustafa Barghouti, after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: In Israel, election campaigning is well underway. And with Benjamin Netanyahu's far-right coalition potentially facing defeat, radical
settlers in the occupied West Bank seem to be taking matters into their own hands.
In an environment of permissiveness and in some cases even encouragement from the Israeli government, settler outpost building has mushroomed. And
Palestinians are subjected to staggering violence, intimidation and terror from these settlers.
For more on all this, let's bring in CNN's Jeremy Diamond, who's in Jerusalem and who's been covering this unfolding situation on the West Bank
as well. So, from your perspective, Jeremy, in Israel, knowing this election is happening, can you tie any of the outbreak of violence at all
to the elections?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's hard to tie the outbreak of violence to the elections because we have been seeing a kind of
consistent pattern since October 7th. And then again, at various points during the Iran war, for example, the violence really surging in the West
Bank carried out by these settlers.
But I think what could potentially be tied to the election and what a number of activists on the ground have told us is that they get this sense
that the settler community, especially those more extremist settlers who have established dozens of outposts in the West Bank in just the last year
alone, that they are very much trying to create and cement conditions on the ground that could potentially endure beyond any potential change in the
government of Israel.
Because it is important to note that when we talk about many of these extremist settlers in the West Bank, while the Israeli prime minister, as
he tried to do yesterday on CNN, tries to downplay them as a group of, you know, only 100, 150 juvenile delinquents, many of these, first of all, they
number in the hundreds of extremist settlers, according to Israeli military officials that I've spoken to.
[13:20:00]
But they are also individuals who are in many cases very tied into the government, very tied in to the kind of far-right ministers in this Israeli
government, such as Bezalel Smotrich, such as Itamar Ben-Gvir, and they are oftentimes receiving support from those ministries, whether in the form of
financial support that helps them to pay for ATVs, for example, or obtain weapons, obtain vehicles that they can use in the West Bank, but also in
the form of the kind of lack of enforcement by the Israeli police, which is under the national security minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, when settlers carry
out violent attacks and the impunity that very often follows.
So, all of those are things that could potentially change if the government changes in these elections that will happen in about three months' time.
And so, there is a sense by some activists on the ground that there is an acceleration of some of these efforts in order to try and preserve those
gains by the settler communities as they view them to withstand any potential change in government.
AMANPOUR: Look, we've seen your amazing reports, particularly when you got caught up in one of these horrendous incidents over there, involving the
settlers and even the security personnel, but you just mentioned Benjamin Netanyahu and he gave that interview to Dana Bash, also about the election,
people I think in Israel are not happy with the ceasefire MOU, and Netanyahu also is not happy with the ceasefire MOU between the United
States and Iran.
Tell me how that's playing into the election and what you think the prime minister is trying to do about that.
DIAMOND: Well, it's interesting because whereas the West Bank is an area where the prime minister is very much trying to keep his right-wing
coalition intact, as it relates to the issue of Iran, the tables are a bit turned and frankly it's the prime minister against almost everybody else,
both the right-wing and the center, you know, center-right and kind of center-left parties that formed kind of the majority of Israeli political
parties, all of them are kind of trying to paint the Israeli prime minister as unsuccessfully defending Israeli national interests, vis-a-vis Iran and
vis-a-vis Lebanon, and particularly failing to influence American foreign policy decision-making by President Trump because of these moments of
tension that we have seen between President Trump and between the Israeli prime minister. And also, as it relates to Lebanon, where Prime Minister
Netanyahu has basically repeatedly had to kind of shift course because President Trump has told him to cut it out, to put it in kind of the
simplest terms.
And so, on that issue, you know, whereas Prime Minister Netanyahu for a long time kind of viewed himself and characterized himself as Mr. Security
in Israeli politics, that issue is now being turned into a weakness for him because he seems to have failed to turn many of the kind of tactical
successes of Israel vis-a-vis Iran and Lebanon, he has failed to turn those into strategic gains, and that is kind of how the narrative of this
election campaign is very much shaping out, in addition, of course, to many of his political opponents, coming back to the issue of October 7th, and
coming back to the issue of a lack of accountability for the Israeli prime minister, who was in a position of power before, during, and immediately
after those October 7th attacks.
AMANPOUR: Jeremy, thank you so much for reporting from us and giving us all that perspective. Thanks a lot. Great to have you on. And we're going
to get more on this.
So, let's bring in the veteran Palestinian politician, Mustafa Barghouti, who joins us live from Ramallah in the occupied West Bank, he is head of
the Palestine National Initiative, I hope I got that right.
But let me ask you, Dr. Barghouti, and thanks for joining us, you heard, you know, what Jeremy said, you heard Prime Minister Netanyahu talking to
CNN, in which, let me just read what he said and pick up from what Jeremy said about the latest attacks, it's 150 kids, juvenile delinquents, they're
not from the settler community, it's wrong on its own account, I don't accept vigilantism.
But of course, you know, Israeli NGOs say it's systematic and enabled by state policy. What's your reaction to the latest outbreak there?
MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE: Unfortunately, I have to tell you Christiane, that Prime Minister Netanyahu
is lying, in reality what we face here is not just violence, what we face here is organized terror against Palestinian people by gang terrorist
settlers groups, that are supported by the whole settler community of 800,000 people, including ministers like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir, and who are
attacking Palestinians on the average 15 times a day, burning houses, burning cars, uprooting trees, destroying properties, and they are the
avant-garde attack that confiscates people's land, burning houses, burning cars, uprooting trees, destroying properties.
[13:25:00]
And they are the avant-garde attack that confiscates people's land, already Israel is controlling more than 58 percent of the West Bank, where there
should be a Palestinian state.
So, what we face here is organized terror, supported and protected by the Israeli army, and it is also supported by the Israeli government. Netanyahu
is trying to downsize the issue, but the reality that we face today is that 70 Palestinian communities have already been displaced in the West Bank,
and some of them several times.
What we face here is, according to OCHA, the United Nations organization, in 2025 Israeli settlers attacked Palestinians 1,800 times, attacking 230
communities. In 2026, up till now, they've conducted at least 1,000 attacks, affecting 280 communities. So, it's vast.
And let me say shortly that what we face here is an existential threat, an act of annihilation practically, not only in the West Bank, Christiane, but
also in Gaza, where 73,000 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli army, including 22,000 children. Each life of these children is so
valuable, each of them has an inherent human value that cannot be replaced or compensated by anything, or by any other life. You're talking about a
whole generation being erased by the Israeli army, and now a whole generation being attacked by Israeli gangs of terror.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, obviously, I want to ask you what you think, you know, their mission is, what you think the endgame is, because you've just talked
about all the, you know, the killings, the attacks. What do you think they're trying to do with the Palestinian population?
OK. It looks like we may have lost our connection with Ramallah. We will try to get it back. But still to come, from the rise of the far-right in
Israel to the rise of the far-right in Europe, we take a look at the growing popularity of populist politicians, like France's Marine Le Pen and
Britain's Nigel Farage. More on how they appeal to the public after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: Let's go back to our conversation with the Palestinian politician, Mustafa Barghouti, in Ramallah in the occupied West Bank.
Thanks for being there still. We had a -- you know, a transmission issue.
But we were talking about the violence and you give me all the stats. I want to pick up on what I was asking. Jeremy Diamond. Is there any election
related spike that you can see? Some say that, you know, the far-right, the radical settlers, that movement is trying to seize what they can before
there might be a different government in in Israel that might have a different set of parameters. What do you think about the Israeli election?
BARGHOUTI: The response, Christiane, is that yes and no. No, in the sense that this policy has been going on for years on and it was not deterred by
any sanctions on Israel. But on the other hand, yes, it has increased dramatically in the last period of time because people, what I call fascist
ministers, like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich, think that they can get much more popular support if they enhance rapidly their oppression of the Palestinian
people like the way they are oppressing Palestinian detainees, but also by expanding settlements at a rate that is unprecedented.
We are talking now about more than 500 illegal settlements and settlement outposts. They're occupying every space in the West Bank, and they are
increasing the attacks of the settlers because they want to enhance the impression that these terrorists, settlers, gangs can repeat the same
terrorist attacks that happened in 1948 by Israeli troops and groups like Haganah and Stern and others who were classified by the British as
terrorist groups and that managed to replace -- displace no less than 70 percent of the Palestinian people.
If you look at the program of different Israeli Zionist parties, you barely find a difference because all of them refuse the establishment of a
Palestinian state, all of them refuse to end occupation, all of them refuse to remove settlements.
And so, what can they compete in since they all agree on continuation of occupation and apartheid? They compete by enhancing the amount of terrorist
attacks, and that's exactly what these settler terrorist groups are doing, led by these fascist ministers.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, let's just go back. I mean, the leaders of those, the Irgun, the Haganah, they became prime ministers of Israel, and they did
actually sit around negotiating tables and make peace, at least with Egypt, you remember, Menachem Begin, and then Yitzhak Shamir was at the Madrid
Peace Conference. So, that's just a fact.
My question to you is, what about your authority, the Palestinian Authority, the one that Israel recognizes, the rest of the world
recognizes? What about lobbying for your own rights? Are you satisfied with the way the Palestinian Authority and those who are meant to be in charge
of Palestinians actually run the situation? You haven't even had elections for decades, and I know that you're upset about that.
BARGHOUTI: Of course, one of our biggest weaknesses in Palestine is we did not have a democratic process since 21 years. We didn't have presidential
elections since 21 years. We didn't have legislative council elections since 20 years. We don't have separation of powers between the legislative,
executive, and judiciary powers, and that makes the authority very weak.
And actually, it alienates people, and alienates the ability of the Palestinian Authority to organize Palestinian struggle against this
terrible injustice we are subjected to. And of course, they look passive, and they are also targeted by the Israelis.
Don't forget that Israel confiscated more than $6 billion of the Palestinian budget. They put them in a most difficult condition where they
are unable to pay salaries, unable to buy drugs, medications for patients, especially cancer patients, and they are stripping from them away their
authority.
No, the Palestinian Authority is very passive. It should have more active role. It should organize much bigger campaigns against these settler
attacks. And the big question that every Palestinian asks is if we spend more than 35 or 40 percent of our budget on the security apparatus that
cannot provide any security to Palestinians, then what is the value of the so-called security coordination if it is supposed to provide protection to
the Israeli occupier, but unable to protect Palestinians themselves from the same occupiers? That's the dilemma.
[13:35:00]
And that can only be resolved through two ways. First, to have a true democracy, allow Palestinian people to choose democratically and freely
their leaders. And I hope the declaration about new elections in November will happen and will not be cancelled again. And second, the world
community, those who claim they support international law and support international humanitarian law, should also interfere and subject Israeli
settlers and government to sanctions till all these atrocities and terrorist attacks against Palestinians stop.
AMANPOUR: And finally, I want to ask you about the Palestinians themselves. We've heard how in Gaza, for instance, the so-called yellow
line, which the IDF has drawn down the center of Gaza, is expanding. And we see what's happening in the West Bank. People are being encouraged or
forced out.
Do you think that's what's afoot to try to actually get rid of the Palestinians? And how are you going to prevent that? What's going to happen
to Palestinian people who are squeezed into ever smaller entities on the West Bank and in Gaza?
BARGHOUTI: The short summary is very clear. The main goal of the Israeli attacks in Gaza, where Israel has violated the ceasefire 3,500 times, by
the way, without any Palestinian response. The main cause, the main target of these attacks and the expansion of occupation is ethnic cleansing of
Gaza. That's what the Israeli defense minister or army minister has declared, that their goal is ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza. And
what is happening in the West Bank is the same. It is also the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
And as I said, the thousands of Palestinian lives, whether men, women, elderly or children, has huge value that cannot be compensated or replaced
by any other life. And they are trying not only to displace us, they are trying to completely annihilate the Palestinian presence in the occupied
Palestinian territories. Why? Because if you look at figures, there are 5.3 million Palestinian people on the land of Palestine versus 5.1 Israeli
Jewish people.
For Israel to succeed in eliminating Palestinian presence and Judaization of the whole of Palestine, they have to get rid of the population. That's
why the biggest risk that we face is ethnic cleansing and displacement. And the biggest, most important target for our lives today is to support the
steadfastness of Palestinians in Palestine, to save our future, to save our lives, to save our dignity, to save our ability to be free eventually, not
only from occupation but from apartheid and from this whole settler colonial project that tries to eliminate our presence in Palestine.
AMANPOUR: Well, Mustafa Barghouti, thank you so much. There are a lot of elections coming up. Who knows, hopefully there'll be some kind of way to
get all sides to actually be able to go to peace and security for all of them. Mustafa, thank you very much for being with us.
Next to Europe and two of the world's best-known right-wing populists with the same defiant message. In France, Marine Le Pen insists that she'll run
for president. This after a French court upheld her conviction for embezzlement but reduced the time she'll be banned from public office. And
here in the U.K., under scrutiny for alleged financial misdeeds, the Brexit leader, Nigel Farage, has resigned his seat in parliament but will
immediately run for it again. But both far-right parties, as well as the AfD in Germany, are growing stronger.
So, let's bring in French journalist, Thierry Arnaud, and also Katrin Bennhold, who covers Europe for The New York Times, and I believe she's
joining us from London. Welcome to both of you to the program.
Can I just first ask you, Thierry, to react and to tell us what you think the significance of the ruling on Marine Le Pen was and how successful,
potentially, her run could be?
Can't hear. OK. Thierry, we need to fix your audio, so I'm going to go to Katrin Bennhold in Cardiff, Wales. Can you hear me, Katrin?
KATRIN BENNHOLD, HOST, "THE WORLD" NEWSLETTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: I can hear you.
AMANPOUR: Fantastic. We'll wait to get Thierry back. But I'm going to ask you, because you've covered France, you've covered the right-wing around
Europe, what was your reaction towards the development with the national rally in Marine Le Pen?
BENNHOLD: I think it's a good outcome. To be honest, when she was first convicted and seemingly banned from running for the presidency, I was a
little worried.
[13:40:00]
Not because this is not an independent court and it was politically motivated, but because the rhetoric around it on the far-right was
definitely that, right? It was described as a sort of, you know, execution of French democracy and it was a rallying cry.
And as we've heard in other countries, I mean, President Trump has used this kind of language, other far-right leaders that have been, you know,
condemned by courts of law and the rule of law have made similar arguments.
The problem that we face in polarized societies is that even independent court rulings are going to be perceived through this polarized lens. And
so, if you think of the rule of law and independent courts as being institutions to stabilize democracy, if we are at the point where
potentially a court ruling could be destabilizing because it turns somebody into a martyr, for example, then I think judges and verdicts have to take
that into account, not to give impunity, but to be careful about the ruling.
So, I'm glad she gets to run because it's better to give voters a chance to have a say here, but you know, the ruling stands. So, the embezzlement case
in that sense stands.
AMANPOUR: Exactly. So, her conviction stands and apparently, she may have to wear this ankle bracelet, but we'll get into that a little later. Let me
ask you about, you know, over here, a similar situation, similar but different. Nigel Farage, the leader of Brexit, now the leader of Reform.
They also are pretty, you know, big in the polls. And he has now portrayed this investigation into financial misdeeds as the establishment against
him.
Let me just play a soundbite. I want you to react to what he's saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIGEL FARAGE, LEADER, REFORM U.K.: I've done nothing wrong. I've thought about it hard and I've decided today, today I will resign as a member of
parliament for Clacton-on-Sea, thereby forcing a by-election, which would happen, I hope, in short order.
No, I've decided that the people of Clacton should be the judges of my actions. This will be a people versus the establishment by-election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Katrin, so let me ask you, because most of these populist right- wing figures always say it's us against the world, it's us against the establishment, even President Trump is like that after all his court cases
and he became president again. What do you think now reporting from the U.K. about his chances and whether that will resonate now?
BENNHOLD: I think this message does resonate, because the U.K. is an incredibly polarized society, as is France, as is increasingly Germany too.
You know, we're looking at a situation where all of these leaders, Le Pen, Farage and their parties, the AfD in Germany, are now the leading political
force in opinion polls and they're very present in parliaments now and are really disrupting politics.
But more importantly, I think on the voter end, elections are now coming up, perceived to be sort of existentially important for democracy. And so,
by extension, whatever happens to their candidates is perceived by the voters, by the supporters of these candidates, as existential too. So, this
us versus them rhetoric extends into these court cases.
So, I mean, Farage is playing his hand well from that point of view. He's doing exactly what Donald Trump did when he faced various, you know, court
cases before the presidential election and what Marine Le Pen did. So, it is very similar. That pattern is playing out across Europe.
AMANPOUR: Well, we're going to Paris because we've got Thierry Arnaud back. So, let me ask you, I don't know whether you could hear Katrin, but
basically, she says she's glad that the French judges came to this conclusion because it eliminates to an extent Marine Le Pen's claim and
martyrdom, you know, complex, et cetera. What is your reaction to the judgment by the court in Paris?
THIERRY ARNAUD, INTERNATIONAL REPORTER, BFMTV: First of all, this decision on Tuesday is really the start of the French presidential campaign. I think
that's the most important decision so far in that political cycle.
Number two is she starts this campaign now as the runaway favorite by far. She's never been this strong. She is credited with about 35 percent of the
votes in the first round. Bear in mind, it's a two-round process, our presidential election. So, what that means is that she has now the virtual
certainty that she will be present in the second round as she was in the past two elections.
And what the polls are telling us also is that against any potential opponent, she wins. And what is interesting is that if you look at the
polls after the decision and the polls before the decisions, they're exactly the same. So, she hasn't lost anything. She hasn't gained anything.
But she's by far the strongest candidate today.
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: So, that's interesting. And there's also an internal potential. I don't know whether it's friction or not, you tell me. But Jordan Bardella
is her very young and successful deputy. If she couldn't have run, he would have done so as the presidential part of that ticket. Here's how Le Pen is
selling their ticket. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARINE LE PEN, LEADER, NATIONAL RALLY (through translator): We have offered the French a duo, a duo that I believe is complementary, balanced,
coherent, solid. And so, it is together that we will go to convince the French that what they are experiencing today is not fate, that it is the
consequence of toxic, harmful decisions that have been taken by others and that good decisions can change their future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARNAUD: Thierry, two questions. One, do you think it'll lead to any friction? Because he was doing pretty well in the polls as well. And he's
considered a younger generation, better on social media, et cetera, et cetera, and even some slight policy differences. Will it make a difference
to that party who heads the ticket?
ARNAUD: It's going to -- what it means is that they're going to have to readjust the campaign, for sure, because he was actually doing better than
her in the polls, slightly better, but better than her. And they would not tell you this publicly, but party officials were of the opinion that it
would not be possible for her to run. And you had the sense that they were basically, that they had set themselves for a campaign in which he was
going to be the candidate. So, there's a bit of an adjustment to be done.
But that said, they have been very disciplined in the way they have responded to that decision. She had said all along that if she could run,
she would, that if she was elected president, he would be our prime minister.
So, as you've just heard, they're running as a ticket. When they went out and started their campaign on Wednesday, there were a lot of comments as to
the fact that he was looking a little bit disappointed, that he was not very vocal in the way he was supporting the fact that she was running now.
So, clearly, there's a bit of adjustment to be made.
But all in all, they're very focused, they're very disciplined. They have a sense that this election is there for the taking for them, that they
haven't been this strong. And basically, yes, there is a bit of friction, but it's marginal. And they're not going to let it screw the campaign up.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you both, but let me turn to Katrin first, because you've reported from Germany as well. There seems to be a plan by the
center-right leader, the chancellor, Friedrich Merz, to try to counter this wave and to sort of try to present a technocratic approach to counter the
rise of AfD, the alternative for Germany. We know the far-right group.
A 34-point plan to show voters that actually good governance can make their lives better. And presumably for all voters, it's about their economic
well-being, and many, many are suffering all over Europe, in the United States, elsewhere. Can you tell us a bit more, Katrin, about what you are
kind of learning from these attempts to roll back the rise of the far- right?
BENNHOLD: Yes. Look, I mean, the coalition of Friedrich Merz has been kind of a disaster from the election to unleash this extra boring, which has
come in very handy and which a lot of people welcomed, having promised before that he wouldn't do that. So, I mean, voters lost kind of trust in
what he stands for early on.
He is back in coalition with the Social Democrats. So, you've got the center-right and the center-left, the two previous alternatives in one
government, as has been the case sort of for the last 20 years on and off, several times under Merkel as well. So, voters really get the sense that
centrist parties are in it together and that they haven't really made meaningful change. And they also have fought -- had a lot of infighting and
fought a lot amongst each other. So, there was a sense not much was happening.
This plan, these 34 reform -- this -- the 34-point reform package is an attempt to show that they are capable of acting. And that in itself, that
agreed on something fairly fast and that there's now something out there that there's a plan, it counts for something, I believe, because I think
that, you know, populists benefit from kind of inaction and paralysis at the center, of which we had too much.
That said, it's a very modest plan. There's the pension reform, but then everything else looks faintly like 1990s supply-side economics. There's
very few economists that believe this will make a meaningful, tangible difference to people's lives.
[13:50:00]
And so, the kind of big concerns that people look at when they go towards populist parties, the fear they have of losing control and their
governments not being in control of things like automation and, you know, artificial intelligence and immigration, those things are not really being
addressed in this plan.
I'm skeptical that it will have the impact that Merz has said it should. He sort of almost put it out there as a test for centrism. We'll see.
AMANPOUR: So, let me ask you a similar question then, Thierry, because, you know, President Macron also governs mostly from the center. There was
some pushback against the national rally when they won European Parliament a couple of years ago. In Germany, as we've seen, there has been pushback
against the AfD. And look at what happened in Hungary. The illiberal Democrat, as he liked to call himself, Viktor Orban, prime minister for 16
years, was replaced by, you know, a former party member, but who's much more inclined to be more centrist, it seems so far.
Is there any kind of effort to neutralize the far-right's rise in France, and frankly, the far left as well?
ARNAUD: Yes. I mean, these are both dangers, obviously, for those who want to govern in the center. But, you know, while listening to your question, I
was reminded of what Emmanuel Macron stated about 10 years ago on the night he was elected. He went to the Louvre, and he made this very beautiful
speech, and he said that his ambition, his political ambition was to create policies that would give people no more reason, no reason anymore to vote
for the populist and for the national front.
So, we see the result that he has 10 years after, that's exactly the opposite. So, yes, they have tried, and yes, they have failed spectacularly
to stop the rise of this movement so far. It's never been this strong, and it's never been so close to power.
The only hope that they can have is that they can deliver a message that is going to be more convincing on what has been, obviously, the national front
strong points, a tougher stance on immigration, a tougher stance on law and order, more attention to affordability for those who are the most in need.
But they know that, and they've known that for years, and they haven't been able to put it together.
That said, what you have also seen when Macron called the snap parliamentary election is that Marine Le Pen's party has not been able to
gain a parliamentary majority and did actually not as well as what the polls were predicting.
So, there's always this sense that there's a difference between what the polls are telling you about how powerful that movement is and what --
people have to go out and vote, which is more difficult for this particular party.
So, there is a challenge for the center parties that is unprecedented, but there is also a challenge for Marine Le Pen in the sense that she has to,
you know, win that credibility battle that she has lost over and over again so far.
AMANPOUR: Yes, indeed. And, Katrin, very quickly to you because you cover the U.S. effect as well. So, what is the Trump effect, you know, on these
European populist parties?
BENNHOLD: Yes, it's a fascinating question because he's a problem, you know, for a lot of them. I mean, in Germany, they were -- I mean, Alice
Weidel had a sort of love fest on X with Elon Musk and, you know, they were delighted that Trump came back into the White House. But his kind of
policies that are very America first and quite anti-European as we've seen in terms of tariffs and, you know, threats to Greenland and so on. That's
not something that they can sell their voters.
So, they have to toe a very difficult -- different line here now. I mean, it's not pro-Trump all the way. It's cautious. They agree on things like
immigration policies, but they obviously are very much on the other side of his economic policies and his security policies. And we've seen that most
clearly in the case of Giorgia Meloni in Italy, who again seemed to be, you know, very close to Donald Trump and to Elon Musk and to all these people,
until she wasn't, you know, as soon as Trump attacked the Pope.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
BENNHOLD: I mean, Trump was no longer somebody you win elections with in Italy.
AMANPOUR: It's so interesting the way this goes. Katrin Bennhold of The New York Times and Thierry Arnaud, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
[13:55:00]
And finally, tonight, we end the show remembering '80s pop legend Bonnie Tyler, who's died. At the age of 75, the Welsh singer rose to stardom with
hit tracks including "Total Eclipse of the Heart," as well as "Holding Out for a Hero." And if you're a fan of the 1984 "Footloose" movie, you'll
probably already know her well. Bonnie Tyler was known for her unmistakably husky voice, a sound that became her trademark.
Here she is in 2017 showing CNN's John Berman exactly why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: What's your favorite line? Can you give us your favorite verse from the song?
BONNIE TYLER, SINGER: I need you more than ever, and if you only hold me tight, we'll be holding on forever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: John holding up the candle as if he was at a concert.
That's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
