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Amanpour
Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador To NATO Julianne Smith; Interview With Former British Prime Minister Theresa May; Interview With Siner Angelique Kidjo. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 10, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIANNE SMITH, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Summits now are about managing one person and one country and that is the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Trump switches from berating to praising allies and the NATO summit ends with a show of unity. Will it last? I speak to America's former
NATO ambassador, Julianne Smith.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were told that (INAUDIBLE) agent had been used.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did it get into the country and where was it now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Salisbury has taken a serious turn for the worst. Now, it's murder.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A Russian attack on British soil. A new CNN documentary examines the 2018 poisoning of Sergei Skripal. I speak with former U.K. prime
minister, Theresa May about this real-life spy thriller and whether Brexiteer Nigel Farage could actually reach number 10.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- hope on tour. The renowned singer, Angelique Kidjo, from Benin in Africa performs her new album on stage in Europe. We look back at our
conversation with her about passion for music, family and social justice.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
This week, NATO leaders gathered in Turkey as the alliance faces pressure on multiple fronts. Instead of uniting the alliance, President Trump once
again berated European allies over defense spending, blasted Spain and threatened to cut off trade with Madrid.
Trump renewed his call to control Greenland and criticized several NATO members for refusing to join the United States-Israel war against Iran. But
by the end of it, Trump told a farewell press conference the NATO summit was filled with unity and love.
So, the first NATO summit to be held in Asia did deliver some results. NATO leaders reaffirmed their commitment to collective defense, pledged to boost
military spending and defense production and also reiterated their support for Ukraine, of course.
President Trump even enveloped President Zelenskyy in a warmer embrace, saying that he would allow Ukraine to manufacture Patriot air defense
systems.
So, has NATO emerged more united or have its underlying divisions simply been pushed to another day? Julianne Smith served as America's ambassador
to NATO and she's joining me now from Washington. Ambassador Smith, welcome to the program.
SMITH: Thank you. Good to be back.
AMANPOUR: Good to have you with us. I just want to ask you, of course, the big story, really, the hot war seems to have been rekindled between the
United States and Iran. What do you make of that fact? And with both sides appearing to try to dominate from a position of strength, negotiate, if you
like, over the Strait of Hormuz publicly with this missile exchange, where do you think that can lead?
SMITH: Well, this was the dark shadow that was cast over the NATO summit behind the scenes while they were talking about NATO defense spending in
Ukraine. Allies really were watching closely as the ceasefire over Iran started to unravel. And I think there's been doubt across the Atlantic on
whether or not the ceasefire would hold. Now, there are sceptics, even here in Washington, that we are spiraling to yet another chapter. There really
are questions here about who's controlling the situation.
Iran seems intent on continuing to fire against ships in the Strait. The U.S. then responds to those attacks with more strikes of our own. And the
question is, where does all of this take us? I think for those countries in the Gulf, they are on edge. They don't want to see the fighting return.
They've been targeted in the last 48 hours. And so, there's tremendous uncertainty about whether or not stability is really coming to the Strait
of Hormuz.
AMANPOUR: And where do you think it could actually end up, or is it just going to be a constant sort of low-level war?
[13:05:00]
SMITH: Well, this is the problem. We could be entering a phase where this is just the status quo. There's tremendous uncertainty, tremendous
instability in the Strait. Companies do not feel secure shipping their goods, shipping oil through the Strait. And our economies will react to
that uncertainty. We were just getting to the point where the markets were feeling stable. We were seeing positive reactions around the globe.
But now I think the question is, are we just entering a period where this is going to be part of our daily lives, that we will not be able anytime
soon to reach some sort of lasting ceasefire in the region that will allow those ships finally to safely transit the Strait of Hormuz?
AMANPOUR: And then, of course, all the other issues, like the nuclear issue and the like, which is also at stake. So, do you think this issue -- or how
do you think it affects the alliance? You saw, I'm sure, President Trump's, you know, handling of the NATO summit, his farewell press conference. Do
you agree with him that it ended with unity and, as he said, much love? In other words, do you think at least the alliance is together?
SMITH: Well, it was a very short summit. It was a social dinner on the first evening and one session the next morning. But what transpired between
day one and day two was notably different. Day one was very scratchy.
The president arrived expressing tremendous anger, frustration with specific allies over the Iran war. He's been frustrated with Spain, that
the U.S. was not able to use Spanish airspace to operationalize the intervention, the war that was begun with Israel. And then there were
complaints about the fact that all of NATO had, quote, "let the United States down," that NATO hadn't shown up for the United States. So, going
into the summit, I think the allies felt uncertain about what the outcome would be, whether or not the U.S. would be announcing any changes to its
force posture in Europe.
But we got to day two. The president was in a different mood. He was upbeat. He felt good about the numbers that the secretary-general had given
him about increases in defense spending and left claiming that NATO is more united than ever. But we've seen this movie before. This is what happened
last year in The Hague. And the question is, what comes next? Should we all breathe a sigh of relief that we were able to get through, or is this just
another up-and-down chapter where he likes Europe on one day and dislikes them another?
AMANPOUR: So, that brings me to this really interesting, deeply reported Wall Street Journal article about, over the past six months, how Europe has
tried to figure out how, in fact, to deal with this situation. Now, according to this, one leader from Southern Europe is reported to have told
the group, you are not dealing with an administration that has processes. You're dealing with a single, volatile individual.
Obviously, they mean President Trump, because this is all about how to deal with President Trump and keep NATO on track. Do you agree with that
assessment?
SMITH: I do agree with the assessment. NATO summits are normally, for decades, they've been about allies coming together to talk about shared
threats and challenges. They're there to announce new policies, new initiatives to deal with Russia, threats in the Middle East, threats in the
Arctic, challenges elsewhere.
What's changed is NATO summits now are about managing one person and one country, and that is the United States. And so, it becomes a balancing act
that's more about one person than about the collective strength of the alliance as a whole.
So, of course, I'm personally relieved to see that we came out of the other side of the summit with a united message and some sense of resolve and
support for Ukraine. That's a good thing. But I worry that if we continue to get into this cycle where it's just about managing the United States,
that NATO is distracted and unable to focus collectively as allies on those shared challenges and threats.
AMANPOUR: So, interestingly, the reporting after this summit suggested, and actually they quoted certain European leaders there, saying, yes, you know,
perhaps before it was about trying to figure out Trump, et cetera. But now they say, after this whole year and a half of the second administration,
this is no longer, we've had enough of the bullying, we are doing this because of our own security.
SMITH: Well, allies are stepping up. Let's not deny that. And we should applaud all of those efforts. I mean, by the best calculations, Europe will
spend upwards of a trillion euros on their own defense over the next decade.
[13:10:00]
We have to applaud all of those efforts and celebrate them. This is something that the United States has been asking for a very long time. And
it is important that they do it for their own security, not just because the United States and President Trump is bullying them into it. They really
need to do it to provide for their own security. So, this is a good thing.
I question whether or not those efforts in Europe are well-coordinated and whether or not they're leading to some potential fragmentation across the
continent. But all in all, this is a positive development for the NATO alliance, full stop.
AMANPOUR: Let me read you another paragraph that really leapt out at me from the Wall Street Journal report. And this is now talking about the last
six months of allies trying to talk to each other. Quote, "For a year, America's closest allies had tried to placate Trump with a mix of flattery
and concessions on mutual defense and trade issues, hoping to buy time. Now, French soldiers were in Greenland alongside Danish special forces
equipped for a shooting war with America. The French president repeated something he's been pressing for years, that Europe's over-reliance on
America was a security risk. There is no going back, he said."
Obviously, there's a debate as to whether to go with Secretary General Rutte's, let's keep him on side, let's keep giving Trump wins, and the
potential Macron version of let's do our own thing and let's, you know, mitigate for this, what he called a security risk. But imagine the picture
of Danish and French soldiers in Greenland ready to attack American troops if they invaded.
SMITH: No one should underestimate the impact of the Greenland chapter on the state of the transatlantic relationship. We may have forgotten here in
the United States what President Trump said late last year or early this year on getting or taking Greenland. We may consider it to be in the rear-
view mirror, although he did mention Greenland when he got to Turkey for the NATO summit.
But in Europe, they have not forgotten Greenland. They have not forgotten that the strongest and most powerful member of the NATO alliance once
threatened to take the territory of another NATO ally. That has shaken this alliance to its core It has undermined trust with our allies and led many
of them to conclude that there is no going back. They are now turning the page on 80 years of history of working hand in glove with the United
States. This does not mean that the transatlantic relationship is over. I'm not here to issue rights, last rights on that relationship.
But what it does mean is that the trust that once sat at the foundation of this relationship now has been lost. And that will have consequences for
U.S. industry. It will have consequences for the United States government. And it will have consequences for this incredible global network of
partners and allies that the United States has held on to for decades.
AMANPOUR: Ambassador Julianne Smith, thank you so much for being with us.
SMITH: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Now, coming up, with Britain preparing for yet another new prime minister, I went to meet one of the former prime ministers to talk about
the rise of the far-right and the future of Britain. My conversation with Theresa May after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: Britain is preparing for its seventh prime minister in just 10 years. Think about it. With the Labour Party's former mayor of Manchester,
Andy Burnham, expected to take over from Keir Starmer in the coming weeks. It's just the latest chapter in a tumultuous decade since Brexit, upending
trade, defense, and immigration.
My next guest, Theresa May, was catapulted into Downing Street by Brexit and tried negotiating a better deal with the European Union. She failed,
and it proved so tricky that it, in fact, cost her her premiership.
A defining moment was also the Salisbury poisonings. That was a failed assassination attempt on the former Russian military officer and double
agent in 2018, exposing the shadow conflict between Russia and the West, long before the full-scale invasion of Ukraine. It's documented in a new
CNN film, "The Salisbury Poisonings: A Spy Next Door." Here's a clip from the trailer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Immediately, this didn't look right. They had very unusual symptoms. Somebody said, you're not going to believe what I've just
found out, something has poisoned these people.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turns out that he was a Russian spy. We were told (INAUDIBLE) agent had been used.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did it get into the country, and where was it now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Salisbury has taken a serious turn for the worst. Now, it's murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was enough poison in that bottle to kill 10,000 people. There is no playbook for this.
THERESA MAY, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Russia had been responsible for this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I got into all of this with Theresa May when we sat down in Westminster here in London.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister May, welcome to the program.
MAY: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: You have taken part with other people in this new documentary which is airing on CNN about the Skripal poisonings. That's obviously
happened during your prime ministership. Take us back to that moment when you heard about it and what went through your mind.
MAY: When I first heard about it, it was presented to me as two people who'd been found on a park bench who were obviously ill. But at that stage,
it wasn't entirely clear what the problem was. And there was a hope that actually this was something that was explicable, a drug issue or something
like that, rather than being what it turned out to be, obviously the chemical weapon, the nerve agent.
So, at that point in time, there's a sort of, you hope for the best, but then you have to start thinking and preparing for the worst.
AMANPOUR: And the worst was that, I think, one way or another, essentially it was an act of war by a hostile state on the United Kingdom.
MAY: Yes. I mean, the fact that initially there were sort of two people on a park bench, OK, well, this may be more than just something that would
naturally be explicable. And then, of course, you're told that Sergei Skripal had worked for Russian intelligence. And that makes you start to
think there's potentially more to this than meets the eye.
And so, you have to start thinking about what you need to put in place, what the order of things is. I'm a great believer that you have to make
sure you have the evidence before you start to make public statements about issues like this.
AMANPOUR: I'm just going to play now something actually really obvious. It's the doctor at the hospital in Salisbury. And Salisbury was
essentially, it's not a tiny town, but it was a little town that not many people around the world knew about. And suddenly, they were faced with this
massive geopolitical crime, an act of violence. Here's what the doctor said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It suddenly began to dawn on me that something has poisoned these people at that moment.
[13:20:00]
Somebody came up to me and said, Dr. Cockroft, I've just googled Sergei Skripal and you're not going to believe what I've just found out. So, I
went and looked, and there it was. He had a Wikipedia page. Right, OK. This is beginning to smell a bit fishy this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Fishy could be a great British understatement. You'd discover that it was Novichok. Were you surprised that it was actually a journalist,
Christo Grozev, a colleague who discovered the identity of these two who had claimed that they were tourists coming to visit the famous church
spire, Cathedral spire in Salisbury, that he discovered who they were?
MAY: Well, first of all, there was a lot that happened obviously before the names of the individuals who'd undertaken this were put forward. And so,
there was that whole process of making sure that we were right that it was Novichok.
Obviously, we have this very particular capability in the U.K. at Porton Down, that we're able to look into that. And then that, of course, later
on, the fact that it was Novichok was confirmed by the OPCW, the organization that deals with chemical weapons.
AMANPOUR: But the people.
MAY: But -- yes. But there are people -- obviously, you've got U.K. intelligence, you've got U.K. police, you've got -- and journalists who
make it their business to be looking at these sorts of issues. So, all coming together and identifying. First of all, we had to identify that it
was Russia that was behind it, and then of course, the individuals were identified.
AMANPOUR: And then you were faced with -- not really a dilemma, but a national security perspective and prerogative that you couldn't let this
stand. If you knew that this was Russia and it went to the highest levels, i.e., Putin, there was a security council meeting convened. President Trump
banged everybody into order and you were given the floor.
Were you satisfied with how your allies reacted to this? And what were you -- how did you see Sergey Lavrov react, the Russian ambassador who was
sitting quite close to you?
MAY: Well, impassively, I think is probably the best description. I mean, in terms of the response from allies, what was critical was that we were
able to bring about the largest ever expulsion of Russian intelligence officers across the world in history.
Over 25 countries came together with the United Kingdom, NATO as well, and expelled Russian intelligence officers. Over 150 were expelled around the
world. And that gave a very clear signal to Russia. First of all, we've been watching you and we knew where these people were, and we are
disrupting your networks. That was the first message that it gave. And secondly, it gave a longer message, we know where you are, and we're
watching. And I think that was incredibly important.
And allies from around the world, the United States, member states from the -- other member states from the European Union, which we were in at the
time, Australia, Canada, came together and said, this is not good enough. Russia has used a chemical weapon, which is unlawful to use a chemical
weapon and they've used it on the streets of a British city.
The audacity of that, the recklessness of that was absolutely clear to me, and I think that came across to allies around the world.
AMANPOUR: And it was extraordinary to me, I mean, I didn't remember it for the time, but the analysis said that small amount could have killed 10,000
people. It was very potent.
MAY: And that was -- sorry, but that was one of the issues that we had to deal with at the time, was not knowing where this agent had been used
initially. It was then discovered it was on the handle of the of the door of Sergei Skripal's house.
But of course, the police and others had to look at all the places the Skripals had been to. Those places had to be cleared, cleaned out to make
sure there was no trace of that Novichok there, and they were on a park bench. Children could have come up. Children could have found that phial.
You know, the potential damage is difficult to comprehend, in a sense. And that's why I say this was so reckless from Russia, and it was so important
that we were able to take our time to find the evidence and to identify that this lay at the hands of the Russian state.
AMANPOUR: So, obviously they deny it, and Putin has not been humbled at all by any of this. He's been outed in every which way by this, by your
investigations, by the revelation of who the two agents were who brought this and committed this crime.
[13:25:00]
Subsequently, doing the full-scale invasion of Ukraine and continuing these very reckless, bold, I mean, thumbing his nose is an understatement, but
just not taking NATO, the United States, Europe seriously at all, it seems.
MAY: Well, of course, we saw following some weeks after the attack in Salisbury, we saw Russian agents trying to take action against the
organization for the prevention of the use of chemical weapons, which was an organization where a vote was taken, where overwhelmingly the vote was
in favor of the U.K. in relation to this attack that Russia had done.
So, yes, they carried on in that sense. And we saw that further invasion of Ukraine. We've seen Ukrainians fight back, Ukrainians clearly wanting to
maintain their independence, their sovereignty, and the U.K., United States and other allies across Europe supporting Ukraine and continuing to support
Ukraine, which is absolutely essential.
AMANPOUR: Do you think -- because we've seen it all, we've seen President Trump go back and forth, and maybe President Trump 2.0 is different than
the President Trump you knew and worked alongside in his first administration when you were prime minister, but the support for Ukraine
from the United States and the support for NATO, all things that, you know, should be a bulwark against Putin's adventurism, seems to be very touch and
go, very easy come, easy go from the U.S. perspective right now.
MARTIN: Well, the United States -- I was the first world leader to visit President Trump in his first term, and one of the reasons for doing that
was to ensure that he would support NATO. And he did, and he came out supporting NATO. But what he said at NATO was what the U.K. actually agreed
with, which was that the countries sitting around that NATO table had to up their defense spending.
And, of course, what Putin achieved by his further invasion of Ukraine, which is something that he did not expect to achieve, was an increase, was
the critical thing, was Germany saying that they were going to increase their defense spending, which they had not done previously.
So, if you think about it, Putin's an opportunist. I think he saw that the West was turning its eyes towards China more. He saw the withdrawal from
Afghanistan and the chaotic nature of that withdrawal, and he saw an opportunity. He thought the West was not united in defending its values.
And what he got as a result was a West that came together to defend their values, was a NATO that has been strengthened by Sweden and Finland joining
it. What he got was Germany increasing defense spending with NATO commitments to increase defense spending around the table.
AMANPOUR: So, are you concerned? How would you advise, if you were to advise any current British prime minister? The defense minister resigned
over U.K. defense spending. What does this next prime minister have to do? Well, we've just had a NATO summit, and Trump is again complaining about
lack of correct spending by NATO allies.
What actually does a U.K. prime minister have to do, knowing that there's so much domestic that needs to be dealt with as well?
MAY: Well, what the U.K. prime minister does have to do is to commit to the NATO -- which has been done, commit to the sum of spending on defense and
security that NATO is requiring, but needs to set out a clear plan to achieve that.
Obviously, there's been a lot of to-ing and fro-ing from this current Labour government about the defense investment plan. And as you say, the
secretary of state for defense, John Healey, resigned because he didn't feel enough money was coming forward.
I have to say there is a simple way in which some money can be released in terms of U.K. government terms, which is by the U.K. government getting on
top of welfare reform and ensuring that we are spending less on welfare. And the Conservative opposition has said they will help the government.
They're willing to work with the government to do that.
AMANPOUR: Since the financial crash, there's been no meaningful, you know, pay rises for people. Their salaries have been stagnant. There's a huge
amount of dissatisfaction. Where is Britain right now? You've got Nigel Farage, the father of Brexit, essentially, who's had to resign because of
an allegation of financial misdeeds. Where do you see the political reality here right now?
MAY: I think what is underlying the causes of concern that obviously people here in the U.K. have about their cost of living, about hope for the
future, is lack of economic growth. And that is absolutely critical that the government gets economic growth going.
Unfortunately, the Labour government has taken a number of policy decisions which have been negative for economic growth, rather than encouraging that
growth. But getting that growth is critical.
[13:30:00]
But actually, it's critical in other countries as well. Because what we see across the European continent is that we have seen that economic growth
being, in some cases, stuttering, in others, there, but not at the sort of levels that you would hope to see in order to provide people with that hope
for the future.
AMANPOUR: What about the sort of -- you can see what's happening, so reform, restore, here, this is far right. You've got Marine Le Pen who says
she's going to actually campaign for president because she's been allowed to campaign, despite her conviction for economic financial fraud. She's the
far right in France. You've got a problem in Germany with AfD. You're a conservative, but you're a centrist conservative.
What can conservative parties and more liberal parties, but who essentially hew a centrist line, do to deny the fringes, whether it's on the far, far
left in France or the far, far right elsewhere?
MAY: Voters are dissatisfied because they can't see a better future. They can't see a better future for their children. Every generation expects that
actually their children will have a better life than they've had. And at the moment, people can't see that. And it comes back to this question, I'm
afraid, of economic growth, be it here in the U.K., I think in France, in Germany. These are the issues that politicians are having to grapple with.
And it's being able to give people an optimism for the future, a hope for the future, but actually delivering that on the ground. It's when people
are dissatisfied, they don't think the traditional mainstream parties have delivered for them. Then they turn to the disruptive parties on the edges.
And so, as a conservative, I think the Conservative Party under Kemi Badenoch's leadership is absolutely right to be focusing on some of these
issues of the economy, because that is where we need to ensure that we can get the growth that will give people that hope.
AMANPOUR: And do you think the disruptor in this case, in this country, reform, is polls show that it's doing better than the Conservatives, better
than the Labour government? Will it be -- do you think it's going to win the next election?
MAY: No.
AMANPOUR: Because?
MAY: Because -- for a number of reasons. First of all, actually, although they've been ahead in the polls, they have been falling back in the in the
polls. I think what we see now is people see in looking at reform and looking particularly, you mentioned Nigel Farage, I think they see that
maybe he's more of a normal politician than they thought he was. He's like everybody else in their terms.
AMANPOUR: Because he says it's him against the establishment. He'll fight for the little people, so to speak.
MAY: But he is a man of the establishment. I mean, he's been in politics for several decades now. And if you look at his background, he's a man of
the establishment. But the other thing is, I think there is a sense that you've seen from parliamentary by-elections of people being willing to vote
tactically to ensure that reform do not get elected. So, in the next election, I think we will see quite a lot of tactical voting.
AMANPOUR: What do you think the tactical is here? All the parties have refused to contest the by-election that Farage is going to stand for?
MAY: Well, he's created a by-election which will cost the taxpayer money. As a result of that by-election, the parliamentary inquiry into his receipt
of certain financial sums, not just from Christopher Harborne, but from George Cottrell as well, will have to go into abeyance. And it's a gesture,
I think, from him. And I think, you know, Kemi Badenoch said it was a --
AMANPOUR: A stunt?
MAY: Yes, the terms have been used. The stunt. Kemi Badenoch said he'd had a hissy fit and was doing this. And I think the issue is that he's able to
defer that parliamentary standards inquiry into what he's been doing, the sums of money that he's been receiving. So, it's this sort of gesture from
him. And I think it's absolutely right for people to say, for other parties to say, you know what, we're not going to play your game.
AMANPOUR: There is a real issue that's not a game. And certainly, we can see it in the U.K. since Brexit, a sort of an ungovernability. It's not
possible in the United Kingdom, about to be welcoming a seventh prime minister in 10 years. And this is since Brexit.
Are you concerned that there is, we're in a moment of total distrust, total disruption, total inability to actually persuade people of, let's say, the
things you've been talking about right now? How do you -- what is the antidote to this ungovernability?
MAY: Well, I don't think the U.K. is ungovernable. But unfortunately, members of Parliament have decided that the answer, if there is a problem,
if they're not seeing enough progress in terms of issues like economic growth and people's opportunities.
[13:00:00]
And members of Parliament see changing the leader, changing the prime minister as the answer. Of course, I would say to the Labour Party, it's
not, I think Keir Starmer made a number of mistakes, a number of bad decisions. But actually, it's about those policies that are being pursued
that matters, not necessarily the person who is there at the head of the party and as prime minister.
So, I would say to the Labour Party, you've decided that you want -- you've got rid of the prime minister who actually won you a big majority.
AMANPOUR: I mean, a historic majority.
MAY: A historic majority. You're going for somebody else. But what you really need to look at is your policies.
AMANPOUR: And finally, is this world, to your satisfaction as a former prime minister, is it in safe hands? Do you think that, you know, with all
the disruption, and there is a lot coming from the United States, I mean, unprecedented disruption, whether it's, you know, creating new wars in the
Middle East, whether it's, you know, always disrupting NATO, whether it's trade tariffs, whatever it might be, do you think democracy and the rules
of the road, the post-World War II rules of the road and the international order can survive?
MAY: Well, democracy can survive, certainly. But those of us who believe in it have to stand up and share those values and explain why we believe
democracy is so important. The world, post the Second World War, we created these multilateral institutions, which I would argue have helped to
maintain peace, security -- relative peace, security and stability for us. Those are breaking down. And we need to think about whether we should
reshape those for the future.
But I would say that those of us who believe in democracy, in the importance of people having the freedom to choose who is governing them, in
the importance of the rule of law, importance of a free press, all of those issues that underpin our democracy, we need to be willing to go out and
argue for those and show a new generation, because I do worry about the polls that show young people who don't see democracy as the way forward. We
need to show that new generation why their freedoms matter and it is democracy that deliver those freedoms.
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Theresa May, thank you very much for being with us.
MAY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And "The Salisbury Poisonings: A Spy Next Door," premieres this Sunday, July 12th at 8:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on CNN. We'll be right
back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: 17 albums, five Grammys and a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Angelique Kidjo is arguably the most decorated African musician in history
with a career spanning four decades. She's known for incredible voice and for fusing West African styles with funk, jazz and R&B.
Now, Kidjo is on tour around Europe for her latest project, "Hope," a 16 track album described as a much-needed antidote to despair in troubled
times.
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AMANPOUR: That's the new one. But back in 2019 the renowned performer joined me in the New York studio and I asked her what drives her to keep
creating.
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ANGELIQUE KIDJO, SINGER: In a world where I think we all are losing ground, a lot of things are happening, there's a lot of anger and at the sight of
the anger, you have a lot of people doing wonderful stuff. But we focus more on the anger than the positive things.
And for me, music is about building bridges. It's about bringing people together to a common share humanity. And that's why I'm like -- I'm
devouring everything that comes my way and giving it back to the public. And it has been a really rollercoaster journey that I'm taking but I like
that, it keeps me young.
AMANPOUR: I think it's amazing. I mean, it keeps you young. That's great. You definitely look young. We're about the same age. You're outdoing me.
KIDJO: OK.
AMANPOUR: But you're doing something that you hadn't necessarily done before. You, as I've said, doing some cover albums, cover songs. One of the
bands that's so well-known too, American and Western audiences, I guess, are the Talking Heads. Erupted on to the scenes in the early '80s, I think.
And you did a cover last year including a song that you said had inspired you, you know, once in a lifetime. You did their album "Remain in Light."
do you fancy just giving me some of your joy right now?
KIDJO: Oh, yes.
AMANPOUR: Go on then.
KIDJO: Letting the days go by. Letting the days go by. Into the blue again. Once in a lifetime.
AMANPOUR: It's great, Angelique. It really is. And when you sing, your whole face comes alive and it does definitely impact on the audience. But
what was it about that song and that group? When did you first hear them and how did they inspire you?
KIDJO: I mean, I heard the song "Once in a Lifetime" actually when I arrived in 1983. Three months after I arrived, I was trying to tag along
with friends in my music school. And even though you speak a language and share the same culture, pretty much, with people, it's always difficult to
leave your home. No one live in exile by choice and find it very fun.
And some of my -- the musical friend that I was making at that time said, well, let's go raid my fridge. My parent just fill up my fridge. I'm like,
free food? Student. I'm tagging along. I'm going along.
AMANPOUR: Raiding your friends' parent's fridge?
KIDJO: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Here in United States?
KIDJO: No, in Paris.
AMANPOUR: In Paris.
KIDJO: I'm like, OK. Let's go for it.
AMANPOUR: So, you came from the African nation of Benin.
KIDJO: Benin where we have --
AMANPOUR: A communist dictatorship?
KIDJO: -- a dictatorship.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
KIDJO: For the 10 or 12 years that followed their arrival, music was banned at radio.
AMANPOUR: Literally?
KIDJO: Literally. Our music was banned. Only thing you hear is (INAUDIBLE) day in and day out. Everything (INAUDIBLE).
AMANPOUR: And just so that we understand, that ready for the revolution, the fight continues.
KIDJO: The fight continues.
AMANPOUR: So, they banned pop music or --
KIDJO: All of it.
AMANPOUR: Why? What was the reason?
KIDJO: Well, it's not -- it might make her think about freedom. That's what music does. If you see any dictatorship that comes in place, culture is the
first thing they crush. Because culture gives people strength to stand up for their right. When you decide to listen to music in your room, it's not
someone from a government, it's your will. Your free will to do that. And what that music reveals from your life is something that is beyond.
AMANPOUR: You know, that's really an incredible story because, obviously, we remember the counter culture here in the United States, the '60s, all
the incredible music associated with that during the student uprisings, the protests against Vietnam, political protests. But you're saying that you
had that in your bedroom in Benin --
KIDJO: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: -- when you were growing up.
KIDJO: Absolutely. All the kind of music. I mean, my father and mother -- I'm realizing as I grew older that what I've taken for granted is sometimes
annoyed me because my mom and dad always used to tell us every morning, a human being is not a matter of color. If you come back and you fail you say
you're black, I'm -- come on, stop.
[13:45:00]
And I grew up and move and it helped me, actually, accept people not thinking the same way I think but allowing the conversation to going on. We
can disagree but as long as we talk to each other, it's okay. If we stop talking to each other, we go into war. We go into violence and it's
unnecessary. We don't need to get there.
AMANPOUR:
You know, you were talking to me in the same manner that a general, Jim Mattis, for instance, former defense secretary spoke to me just this week,
talking about how we must, despite our differences, keep talking. Stop being, you know, divided into tribal extreme groups and treating everybody
like an enemy. And you're seeing it from a very human, personal, cultural view as well.
KIDJO: We tend to forget what is really essential, the core of who we are as human beings. And we get distracted by people's misery. I don't living
your life. The choices you make, if you're not happy with them, change them. Don't blame me for it. My skin color doesn't have to come to the
plate. We need to talk to each other [13:25:00]. I mean, it's essential.
AMANPOUR: You are talking about all of this from your own perspective as growing up in Africa under this terrible dictatorship and escaping it. But
now, we are here in 2019 in the United States or in Great Britain, where you have just finished doing the proms or other parts of Europe where this
kind of tribalization, this kind of political hatred is really just driving societies and cultures apart. The racism that we see here in the United
States overtly.
Just talk to me a little bit about what you're noticing now here in our world, in the free world today.
KIDJO: I think it's a lot of ignorance, one, and it's a lot of frustration. When globalization -- we start talking about globalizers, I always say
this, globalization doesn't mean we all have to think the same and we all have to look the same. Because we are a unique. Even though we belong to
the same human family, we don't think the same way.
In the same family, brothers and sisters with the same education don't have the same take on every -- on the situation they are facing. So, we are here
now and what I hear and it started like way before, I mean, it started 10, 15 years ago.
When people would come to me, young Africans and young from around the world, even in America here, telling me I was doing a signing at
(INAUDIBLE) for my book and a couple of young kids come to me, white kids, not -- I mean, we can't say black are mad, they have reason to -- we have
reason to be mad here, telling me we're going to do a revolution, we're going to break everything. We're going to destroy everything. I said, "Come
again? You come to my signing to tell me that? So, you don't know the person that I am? I'm not for chaos. I'm for construction. I can understand
you guys are angry. I can understand any reason you have to say this. But if you don't think about building a better society, you are the great loser
because you are the young. You're going to be the one that pay the cost of the chaos you want to create.
AMANPOUR: So, don't meet anger with anger --
KIDJO: No.
AMANPOUR: -- meet it with a constructive --
KIDJO: Conversation.
AMANPOUR: -- conversation.
KIDJO: And -- OK.
AMANPOUR: Let's play then a little clip from Celia Cruz, the cover album that you've been doing.
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AMANPOUR: So, I hear you singing with me as we play that. Come on, belt it out again.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
AMANPOUR: So, that's one of her most famous and popular song and it roughly translates, it means, life is carnival.
KIDJO: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And she's country of the greatest salsa stars. So, what is it about her? Why did you decide it? How did she first come into your life?
KIDJO: Well, for me, salsa has always been a huge music scene in Africa, everywhere. There's no one artist today -- Youssou N'Dour started with
salsa. (INAUDIBLE). All of them. All of the guy that started with salsa. So for me --
AMANPOUR: And it's usually guys.
KIDJO: It's only guys. That's what I said. Salsa is a male-dominated form of art. So, for me, OK, as a girl, I'm OK. This music you can't touch
because it's only guys that play it. So, comes Celia. And I'm like, "What? What?" She walks on the stairs, she goes, "Hey, guys." She's here to
settle. You're going to learn something right now.
And her song, "Quimbara," is a lesson of what a voice can be. She used her voice as in these percussive instruments and no one, I said no on until
today can sing like Celia. It's amazing that we have the same kind of range because most of her song I don't touch. I don't change the key of the song.
And from that point on, for me, it becomes clear as a young girl that success or failure has no gender.
And if you don't believe in yourself, we're talking about women leadership. What would that leadership be? Are we always going to be when we put in
front of choosing something where it's out of our realm, we're going to back and say, "Can I do this?" I'm saying no. I said no to every young girl
and every woman out there, you offer a chance, an opportunity, take it. Learn while you're doing it. Don't think back twice. That's what I learned
from Celia.
AMANPOUR: And just let's go back to when you're younger, when she first came into your consciousness. I think you had a bet with one of your
childhood friends that she would, in fact, emerge on to the stage.
KIDJO: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Tell me about the homework bet.
KIDJO: The thing is, it's -- I saw the poster and I said to my friends, "There is a woman singing salsa coming to sing." And they go, "Yes, smarty
pants. You always know everything."
AMANPOUR: You're talking about all of this from your own perspective as growing up in Africa under this terrible dictatorship and escaping it. But
now we are here in 2019 in the United States or in Great Britain where this kind of tribalization, this kind of political hatred is really just driving
societies and cultures apart. The racism that we see here in the United States overtly. Just talk to me a little bit about what you're noticing now
here in our world, in the free world today.
KIDJO: I think it's a lot of ignorance, one, and it's a lot of frustration. When globalization -- we start talking about globalization, I always say
this, globalization doesn't mean we all have to think the same and we all have to look the same.
Because we are unique. Even though we belong to the same human family, we don't think the same way. In the same family, brothers and sisters with the
same education, don't have the same take on the situation they are facing.
So, we are here now, and what I hear, and it started like way before, I mean, it started 10, 15 years ago when people would come to me, young
Africans and young from around the world, even in America here, telling me -- I was doing a signing at BAM for my book and a couple of young kids come
to me, white kids, I mean, we can't say black, I'm mad here, they have reason to -- we have reason to be mad here, telling me we're going to do a
revolution, we're going to break everything, we're going to destroy everything.
I said, come again? You come to my signing to tell me that? So, you don't know the person that I am. I'm not for chaos, I'm for construction. I can
understand you guys are angry. I can understand any reason you have to say this, but if you don't think about building a better society, you are the
great loser because you are the young. You're going to be the one that pay the cost of the chaos you want to create.
AMANPOUR: So, don't meet anger with anger, meet it with a constructive --
KIDJO: Conversation.
AMANPOUR: -- conversation. Let's play then a little clip from Celia Cruz, the cover album that you've been doing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, I hear you singing with me as we're playing that, come on, belt it out again.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
AMANPOUR: So, that's one of her most famous and popular songs and it roughly translate, it means, life is a carnival.
KIDJO: Carnival.
AMANPOUR: And she's one of the greatest salsa stars. So, what is it about her? Why did you decide it? How did she first come into your life?
KIDJO: Well for me, salsa has always been a huge music scene in Africa, everywhere. There's not one artist today, Usundu started with salsa, Salif
Keita, all of them, all of the guys, they started with salsa. So, for me --
AMANPOUR: And it's usually guys.
KIDJO: It's only guys, that's what I said. Salsa is a male-dominated form of art. So, for me, OK, as a girl I'm like, OK, this music you can't touch
because it's only guy that plays it. So, comes Celia and I'm like, what? What up? She walks up and says, she goes, Asuka. I say, hey guys, she's
here to settle. You're going to learn something right now.
And her song, " Quimbara," is a lesson of what a voice can be. She used her voice as a new percussive instrument and no one, I said no one till today
can sing like Celia. It's amazing that we have the same kind of range because most of her songs I don't touch -- I don't change the key of the
song.
And from that point on, for me it becomes clear as a young girl that success or failure has no gender. And if you don't believe in yourself,
we're talking about women leadership. What would that leadership be? Are we always going to be when we put in front of choosing something where it's
out of our realm, we're going to go back and say, can I do this? I'm saying no. I say no to every young girl and every woman out there. You offer a
chance, an opportunity, take it. Learn while you're doing it. Don't think back twice. That's what I learned from Celia.
AMANPOUR: And just let's go back to when you were younger, when she first came into your consciousness. I think you had a bet with one of your
childhood friends that she would, in fact, emerge onto the stage. Tell me about the homework bet.
KIDJO: The thing is, I saw the poster and I said to my friends, there's a woman singing salsa coming to sing. And they go, yes, smarty-pants, you
already know everything. A woman singing salsa? Where do you come from? I'm like, I'm just saying. They said, it's not going to happen. She's going to
be a backing singer. I said, you want to take a bet? And if it's a front- runner, you do my homework for six months, in and out. The math ain't going to happen. She's going to be a backing singer.
[13:50:00]
The math, I give it to you, I hate that. And when she walked on stage, before she came in, there were 15 guys singing, and they were looking at me
like, you see, you see? You're going to lose. I said, are you talking to me? And I was there praying God. I said, God, please let her come and be a
front-runner. And she came out, and I'm like --
AMANPOUR: Six months free homework.
KIDJO: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Because Celia Cruz was the lead singer, and that was the first you'd seen of that in Africa.
KIDJO: Absolutely. The first -- I mean, Afro-Cuban. Because what I love about Celia is that she never shied away of singing the song that came to
Cuba with the slaves. She always paid tribute to all those gods, those orishas. And for me, I was like, how come she knows all this? And it's
great.
AMANPOUR: Talk about that. We're in the United States right now. You've mentioned the origins, the slave music that she never hid and always used.
And you sing a lot about dark subjects as well, with the joyful tone that you have.
But look, it is 400 years since 1619, since the first slaves were brought over here. Reflect on that, but also on how you have really wanted to bring
Afro music, the Afro beat, into a wider world. And you don't like the idea of world music, how it's called.
KIDJO: I hate that.
AMANPOUR: I mean, you won your Grammys, but in the world category. What does that mean today?
KIDJO: Well, it means that we haven't learned yet that every music that we do today comes from Africa. We like it or not, that's just a simple fact
and truth of it. It is true. Everywhere you turn, everywhere I turn as a musician, I always find my continent in it, especially my country.
Blues comes from the songs of the slave. The blue note has been created by the Africans. I mean, jazz has been created by African descendants. So, for
me, music is just what we are, the mixture that we are from the beginning.
As a human being, we are mixed. There's no such a thing as a pure race. And I don't understand why supremacy is, because supremacy has to be a higher
level of morality, a higher standard in life. It cannot be killing people, it cannot be hating people. Because you're talking about supremacy and
hate, those things don't go together.
So, for me, Africans that came here, the African American didn't migrate here like the Irish, like any other people. They have been forced to come
here. They have created the wealth of this country, and they have created the wealth of Europe. That's slavery.
Today, we don't want to talk about it. We blame Africans for slavery. Of course, it comes as a business proposal to the king, and they thought it
was going to be a good thing. The lie that had been told to them, they bought the lie, and here we are today.
But to make a long story short, I think we ought to always think about the fact that the genesis of the crime committed for the rich country to come
is in the blood and sweat of African people. And that model of slavery is also implemented in business.
Because we Africans are not free. They say we have independence. Which independence are you talking about? The raw material we have in our
country, we don't define the price of the raw material. The price of oil is not decided by the leaders of Africa. We have the wealth, but the wealth is
in the hand of the Westerners still so far. We've, of course, the help of our leaders that just really facilitate the job for them.
So, for me as a musician, what I say to people is, we that come from that painful story, how do we create a different narrative? How do we show the
world that despite all the wrong that people have done to us, we are still human beings and we are still willing to create bonds between us? If we
don't have the choice, we cannot live without each other. It does not matter what skin color you have. We have to live together.
And it's something that I learn every day, especially when as a UNICEF Gurudwara Ambassador, we go to villages and you see all those kids
suffering. When you face a child soldier, when you face a teenager that has been raped constantly in a conflict, and you have no words to touch them,
and you start singing and you see a smile, that's the power of music.
And it's something that makes me humble, makes me come to the core of it and say, as a human being, what do I have to bring to the table?
AMANPOUR: So, what keeps you optimistic?
KIDJO: The strength and the resilience of the people around the world, white, black, yellow, red, because poverty is in this country too. I think
we need really to come to realize that if we are not each other's keeper, we lose everything. There's no other life out there. There's not another
ecosystem as this one on this earth.
[13:55:00]
If we messed it up, rich, poor, yellow, black, whatever color you call yourself, whatever language you speak, Mother Nature don't know that. And
death don't know. When death come knocking, you can't tell death, hey, what a minute, I have to go count my billions. You're gone.
AMANPOUR: On that note, Angelique Kidjo, thank you so much for joining us.
KIDJO: It's always a pleasure to be with you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Anything optimistic you want to finish on?
KIDJO: Always.
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AMANPOUR: It's really good. It's really good. It makes us all wake up and feel happy and optimistic, despite the serious issues that we have to deal
with. Angelique, thank you very much.
KIDJO: You're welcome.
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AMANPOUR: That's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.
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