Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with U.S. Army (Ret.) Lt. General Russel Honore; Interview with Haaretz Journalist Nir Hasson; Interview with "Gerontocracy in America" Author Samuel Moyn. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired July 29, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This administration cannot credibly tell Americans to prepare for death in Haiti while claiming that Haiti is safe enough for
hundreds of thousands of people to be deported there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Fear in America with ICE ramping up raids and hundreds of thousands of Haitians now facing deportation back to their ravaged country.
Lieutenant General Russell Honore joins me with his plea against this policy.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): All of Gaza is threatened and under fire. Now, we want to be displaced, but there is no safe place to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- with elections looming in Israel, what about the fate of Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied West Bank? I ask Israeli journalist
Nir Hasson.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMUEL MOYN, AUTHOR, "GERONTOCRACY IN AMERICA": The system we have is systematically producing older politicians, and so we have to do something
to correct it.
AMANPOUR: -- "Gerontocracy in America: How the Old are Hoarding Power and Wealth." Is America ruled by old people and how to get younger people into
power?
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
President Trump's immigration crackdown is accelerating. Hundreds of thousands of Haitians are now living in fear and bracing for deportation.
The Trump administration has revoked their temporary protected status, removing their right to live and work in the United States.
Haiti is plagued by violence and lawlessness, with staggering levels of poverty as well. Trump's own State Department advises Americans must not
visit that country. Ohio's Republican governor, Mike DeWine, tells the administration, quote, "You'd be sending people back to hell."
There's a growing concern about immigration arrests across the U.S. airports. Attorneys say ICE agents are increasingly detaining travelers
with expired visas. The arrests are part of a broader effort by agents to use various enforcement tactics to increase their arrests and meet
President Trump's 2,000-a-day goal.
Correspondent Priscilla Alvarez has more.
We will we will be back in a moment after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: We will have our guest and our story about ICE deportations in the United States in a moment. But first, scenes of utter devastation
across Europe in the wake of wildfires across parts of France and Spain. While some fires have been stabilized over recent days, the danger is far
from over. Local authorities in Madrid say that caution is still necessary with rising temperatures and a lack of rain forecast.
[13:05:00]
Tens of thousands of residents in the central regions of Spain have been forced to evacuate.
The situation in France is no different with communities displaced by wildfires and now facing severe temperatures. Nada Bashir has more from one
of the country's worst affected regions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This a scene which has become all too familiar now in France's southwestern Gironde region. This scorched earth
and burnt trees across miles and miles of woodland and farmland in this region as a result of wildfires that have been blazing for days now.
And according to an official update on Wednesday, officials have said that the majority of the fires that they have been battling over the last few
days have stabilized. They haven't seen any sort of spreading of those fires, though there have been some blazes which have rekindled, although
they say that they were quickly dealt with.
But we are seeing peak temperatures on Wednesday today expected to reach around 41 degrees Celsius, so soaring past 100 degrees Fahrenheit. That is
what's expected as the heat wave continues and there is a fear that these extreme temperatures that we are seeing could lead to more fires. And of
course, for the residents of this region there is a huge amount of fear around the potential for more fires.
More than 200,000 people already evacuated, many of them desperately waiting for news of when they will be able to return home, but for some
they will not have homes to return to.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So, this persistent catastrophe continues and some are saying it's just the beginning in Europe. But let's return to our top story and my
first guest tonight describes Haiti as a war zone as ICE in the United States gets ready to deport hundreds of thousands of Haitians in the United
States.
Retired Lieutenant General Russell Honore is well known to many Americans for his leadership after Hurricane Katrina as well as managing
international relief operations in the Caribbean. He's also an expert on disaster preparedness and has advised Haitian organizations. General
Honore, welcome and thanks for joining us from Baton Rouge.
Can I start by asking you General, this something that you have criticized, this latest Trump administration ramping up of the deportations, but it was
temporary protected status which implies as the administration points out that in any event this status was going to expire. What issue do you have
with that?
LT. GENERAL RUSSEL L. HONORE, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, this group of 350,000 people came to the United States as a result of a natural disaster
after the earthquake, government disruption in Haiti, gang violence. They were allowed into the United States under temporary status. And the recent
Supreme Court decision to terminate those, the problem is they came in gradually.
But the intent of the government now is to immediately start deporting 350,000 people into what can be described as a war zone. The State
Department has declared don't go to Haiti. It's not safe. But the Department of Homeland Security want to send 350,000 people. It's not how
we end when we end TPS, it's how we do it.
We've heard from people in country, at Camp Haitian, they're to be prepared for 3,000 people to be deported Monday. Camp Haitian, by all assessment,
can't handle 3,000 people in one day. And in Haiti, you've got over a million people displaced because of gang violence, over 2,300 killed.
The U.N. came in with a gang suppression task force that had not materialized. So, we don't have security in Haiti. So, the exact reason we
allowed people to come here, because of the administration's position and the exuberance out of the Department of Homeland Security, let's send them
all home. And at the same time, the U.S. is participating and supporting the gang suppression task force, but that hadn't come to fruition.
This a manmade disaster in the making in the middle of hurricane season, Christiane. This terrible to treat people that way.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, you have said that this deportation of particularly of these numbers could just add and feed the chaos over in Haiti, as you've
described. On the U.S. side, many of these Haitians live in Ohio, and the Republican governor has also criticized this, saying that it would actually
really hurt Ohio society, community and economy. Listen to what he said.
[13:10:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): The City of Springfield has come back strongly over the last few years, an old industrial city that now is really coming
back and moving forward. One of the reasons they've been able to do that is because of the Haitians who have filled these jobs. They not only have
filled jobs, they've started open restaurants, they've bought homes and rehab houses, they've done a lot of things that frankly have contributed to
the community. And for them to be lost is going to be a big blow to Springfield, and it's going to be a big blow to the state of Ohio.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, General, what do you think is behind this? If it's economically harmful for the state that they're living in, if it's harmful
for these people to go back to Haiti, what do you think the actual reason is for deporting them all now? And in these big numbers?
HONORE: I think it's the aspirations of the administration and people in the administration to be as cruel as they can to expedite the deportation
of the Haitians back to Haiti, as well as 12 other countries. But the focus right now is on Haiti. And in particular, the terrorizing that has caused
the Haitian families, as of Monday, the Citizenship and Immigration Service have denied them permit to work.
So, employees are telling Haitians not to come to work. And it's in nursing homes, it's in the hospitality business. And as the governor said, it's in
the industry. So, as of Monday, employees, employers can't legally hire Haitians. So, they're sitting at home, wondering what's going to happen to
them. Will it be a van pull up outside? Because there's enough data in the system, TPS people, they know where they live, or they're going to just
start rounding them up, like some operations that happened in Nazi Germany and just push them to the airplanes and go drop them off.
This not the America I fought and defend for. We used to look out for people that needed help. We used to help the poor and the people that are
refugees. And in this particular case, it's cruel. And now, we got people can't go to work. People that were working last week can't work this week.
It is cruel and unusual punishment to send people back to a country that over a million people are displaced because of gang violence. 2,300 killed
this year. And to do it in a very cruel and unusual way. I know Senator Schumer has a bill that would extend the TPS, because Haiti cannot
successfully accept 350,000 people back with nearly 3 million people of the 12 million people in the country that don't have food security now,
Christiane, this cruel and unusual. And I don't know why the president was signed off on that.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to get further down into the historic dysfunction in Haiti in a moment and ask you about that. But right now, I want to ask you
about what you've talked about, which is the gang violence and the amount of violence there is in Haiti. Let me just read from article. You've said
that these armed gangs dominate 80 to 90 percent of the capital Port-au- Prince and large areas of the countryside.
Do you think that you and the Haitian prime minister, who I interviewed in May about this subject, are at odds? Because he says that, yes, a lot of
the capital is -- you know, is at risk. But in general, it's not as bad around the rest of the country. This what he told me back in May when I
interviewed him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALIX DIDIER FILS-AIME, HAITIAN PRIME MINISTER, I want to be clear, not all of Haiti is under gang. We have 10 departments. And out of the 10
departments, only three of them are affected by gang violence. Seven departments are none affected. And life goes on as if it was anywhere else
in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What do you make of that statement?
HONORE: Well, I think he's putting the best political face he can on it. And we support the prime minister from the diaspora. But remember, the
majority of that population is in and around Port-au-Prince that never recovered from their inquiry. We have not had a stable government there for
the last 10 years. And we are we don't we haven't had an election since 2016. And the last president was assassinated.
[13:15:00]
The prime minister is doing the best he can to hold the country together. But the roads going in and out of Port-au-Prince, in most cases, are
controlled by the gang. And the promise -- to put the gang suppression task force in that -- at the time of that interview, the prime minister and
others in the diaspora had great hopes that the gang suppression task force would be there from the U.N. and would have solved this problem.
So, I think it was an optimistic review at the time. But right now, again, 12 million people in Haiti and nearly a third of them don't have food
security. And the majority of those people live in and around Port-au- Prince. We got a problem here. And --
AMANPOUR: And a lot of Haiti depends on the remittances that their relatives and friends send from places like the United States. So, that'll
compound their poverty there if they are no longer able to work and send those remittances.
But I just want to ask you, why did this gang suppression force that we all were told was coming to Haiti, why has it not materialized in a way that's
making any difference?
HONORE: Well, you know, it's easy to say we signed up for the gang suppression task force. It's harder for those internal government officials
to go back home and put boots on the ground. And we had the same problem during the Biden administration when we put the Kenyans in there. They put
them in as a symbolic force, but they didn't give them communications, Starlink. They didn't give helicopters. And the Leahy law prevented the
U.S. from giving the Kenyans offensive weapons so they could go after the gang.
And in lieu of that, the Haitian government has hired Erik Prince mercenaries to go in and go after the gangs. And it's no idea that this
fully collaborated with what's going on in the government.
So, we've got a disjointed -- it's a war zone. So, we got another front war in the Western Hemisphere and the poorest country in the world that we're
going to try to send 350,000, mostly working in America, people with permits to work and send them back home out of the cruelty that we're going
to deport a billion people this year.
AMANPOUR: I just want to ask you, because you've said cruelty many times and you've been, you know, using very harsh language to describe this mass
deportation goal. What about Americans who say, listen, you know, this what we voted for. Trump said he was going to deport as many people as possible
who were here in various different statuses. I know these have temporary protected status, but he promised to deport all illegals. What do you say
to Americans now about this?
HONORE: Well, I think it was a combined thing to close the border, which that's been a successful operation. But the people that are already here
and are working, these people are contributing to the economy. And as the governor from Ohio said, and from business people in Florida and New
Jersey, what is a large concentration of Asian workers, they need those workers to keep their businesses open in nursing home and skilled -- it's
not that the -- they need to go home. It's how we're doing it by sending them back into a war zone. That is cruel and unusual punishment that we
would do that is to send them back in a place that's unstable, that already have food security issues and the suppression task force has not come to
fruition.
If the U.S. wanted to do something, we would waive the Leahy law. We would send advisers in there to try to help build the Haitian police and army and
make sure that the gangs right now outgun the police. And 90 percent of the guns that the gangs use are coming out of the State of Florida, according
to a recent report from the FBI and ATF.
We can help solve this, but we need to be proactive and gradually send people home as opposed to trying to send 350,000 starting Monday with an
estimate of 3,000 being deported back at one time in the Camp Haitian, while the Port-au-Prince airport is not open.
AMANPOUR: General, can I ask you, because you have a huge amount of experience, I've also covered Haiti for a long time, since the mid-'90s,
and I have witnessed interventions by the United States and deployments by internationals and U.N. and NGOs, all sorts of efforts to help them build
up their security, try to build up their economic wherewithal and their survival, try to stabilize this country. And it just doesn't work.
Where is, in your mind, the big problem? You have a lot of experience with Haiti. You advise a lot of organizations. What actually needs to happen?
[13:20:00]
HONORE: We need to try to enforce that democracy can work in Haiti. And the challenge that we've seen is the corruption that can happen in a
democracy without accountability and without proper judicial actions. And as the history has shown in the last two decades, much of the elected
officials have not looked out for the people. They've looked out for themselves and their friends, which has come at the detriment of the
Haitian people.
The Haitian people that I've gotten to know are hardworking. They love their country. They have pride in their country. But democracy has not
treated them well, has not been kind. As we can see in our own country, holding on to democracy is hard. And it's harder after a major earthquake
and the assassination of a president.
We need to give Haitian people a chance to come up with a plan, Haiti, that make democracy work in Haiti. And they need the support of not just the
U.S., but the rest of what we call the core group, Canada and France, who are all standing on the sidelines and go in and do minimum work. We need to
get the NGOs back and get commerce working in Haiti and get the schools and the hospitals open.
Imagine we're sending people into a place where most of the schools in Port-au-Prince are closed, the hospital's been destroyed, and the gangs are
in control. It doesn't make sense to send 350,000 people out of currently working in America back into a war zone, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: I mean, I can see what you're saying, and I just want to do a little bit of a swerve because you are also very well known for managing
the humanitarian relief and other relief operations, you know, after Hurricane Katrina. And you've probably read the recent article in Politico
about effectively the politicization of disaster relief.
So, let me get this straight. The Trump White House, they say, is blocking Democratic-led states from getting millions of dollars in disaster aid
that's inside the U.S. According to Politico, Trump has approved just 23 percent of disaster funding requests from blue states, Democratic states,
and 89 percent for red states. What impact do you think that will have?
HONORE: Well, he's giving favor to red states and punishing blue states that didn't vote for him. This sort of a characteristic of this government.
On the other hand, I remember working with President George Bush. He had a pretty good record of approving most of those that came across his desk,
not based on whether that state voted for you or if you liked a senator from that state.
But under this government, being in a blue state with a blue governor, with a blue Democratic senator, it's putting states and local government at risk
for over $230 billion that's sitting on the table. Even though it was approved by FEMA, it got to the White House and the president said no.
And the rationale has been that he's approving disaster relief for Republican states, but not doing it for Democratic states. And that's not
the intent of the money appropriated by Congress to go to these disasters, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: General Russel Honore, thank you for being with us and highlighting this important unfolding story regarding Haitians and their
deportation back to their own ravaged country.
We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:25:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, a new report says 2025 was the deadliest year for antisemitic attacks in the Jewish diaspora in over 30 years. That's
according to J7, part of the ADL. At the same time, harrowing suffering continues in Gaza with Palestinians dying every day. A parish priest there
describes the worsening humanitarian crisis as, quote, "beyond disastrous."
Nine months into a supposed ceasefire, Israel now controls nearly 70 percent of the territory and, according to the Palestinian Ministry of
Health, has killed over a thousand Palestinians in strikes in that time. Meantime, in the West Bank, settler violence continues despite ongoing
international condemnation.
As Israelis gear up for elections, will this policy change? Nir Hasson is a correspondent for the Israeli paper Haaretz, and he's focused heavily on
what's happening to Gaza over the past few years, and he's joining us from Jerusalem. Nir Hasson, welcome back to the program.
I just want to basically get your take on what the feeling is in Israel right now as the country gears up for elections. You know, there are a lot
of opposition parties that are running either ahead or neck and neck with Netanyahu. What do you think is the lay of the land now?
NIR HASSON, JOURNALIST, HAARETZ: Well, I think there's a lot of optimism among -- at least in the last two weeks or so, among the camp that opposed
Netanyahu and his government, because poll after poll, survey after survey, we see that Netanyahu has no majority for his next government after the
election.
However, I think that this campaign is not dealing with the real issues that the Israeli society needs to face up with. And this what happened in
Gaza, what happened in the West Bank. It's mostly around -- I mean, the campaigns and the elections, mostly around the character of Netanyahu
itself and not about what's happened here in the last two years. This how I feel.
AMANPOUR: So -- OK. So, before I get to what's happening, I want to ask you this, though, because, you know, Netanyahu promised to destroy Hamas.
It hasn't actually happened. And to end the war, which I don't know whether you consider it ended, but it still continues. What do people think about
those pledges he made?
HASSON: Well, it depends what side of the Israeli political map you are looking at. I think it's very difficult to argue that Netanyahu's successes
with his -- the war that he ran in the last two years. Hamas is still in power in Gaza. Hezbollah still has some power in Lebanon. He didn't solve
the issue in Iran, of course.
However, like in the state, in Israel as well, the facts are not really important when we're coming to the campaign. What's matter is the discourse
around the character of Netanyahu, around his opponents. So, this what bothers me, that the facts on the ground are not on the field of the
campaign, it's not on the discourse.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, let's talk about the facts on the ground. So, it's been about nine months since Trump laid out, you know, the 20-point plan to end
the Gaza war. There was the ceasefire, all the hostages, the live ones were released and bodies came out. But the progress obviously has stalled. The
firing and the strikes continue. And as I said, something like a thousand Palestinians have been killed in Gaza in the last nine months or so.
What is the status, do you think? Tell us, because we can't get in. I know you're covering it from outside, but what is actually happening on the
ground? Where does this 20-point peace plan stand, for instance?
[13:30:00]
HASSON: So, not a lot changed in Gaza since October, since the ceasefire went into power. The situation in Gaza, the living conditions in Gaza are
still extremely tough and horrible. Hundreds of thousands of people living in tents, without electricity, without running water, with no functioning
sewage system, with spread of infectious diseases, with bugs and rats and wild dogs all around them. There is no even the beginning of some kind of
rebuilding, of rehabilitation in Gaza. And it seems that all the big plans of President Trump are still on the paper. I don't see anything changed
there.
Actually, I spoke today with someone from Gaza, and he told me that the amount of despair among the people there is much worse than what it was a
year ago, when the war was still running. Because nothing has changed. Because -- you know, and as you said, Israel expanded the territory that it
controlled, the IDF expanding the territory under its control in Gaza, and pushed the Palestinians to a smallest -- to a small area in the Mawasi.
And you have to consider the weather, the temperature in the tents, it's like a greenhouse. It's very tough, and it's the third summer in the world
that people are living under this condition. I don't see how anything changed there, and, you know, it's really despair, for me at least. Yes.
AMANPOUR: Well, I must say, the pictures are appalling. Tell me something, I don't know what the situation with Hamas is. There are reports that they
might be rearming, they certainly haven't disarmed. What do you think the goal of the Israeli political and military class is? And what difference
would it make if there was another Israeli government that wasn't Netanyahu, that wasn't the ultra-right extremists in his coalition? Do you
think it would make an actual material difference to solving the situation or not?
HASSON: This a very tough question, because I think the next government of Israel will be better, and because I cannot imagine a worse government than
the one we have today. However, I do afraid that this government could not deal with the real issues that shape our life here, between the sea and the
river.
You know, I just published two weeks ago a story about the death of children in Gaza. I received hundreds of responses from Israelis, mocking,
laughing, adding laughing emojis, saying why so little -- why didn't kill - - we don't kill the children in Gaza in -- faster, and it's better for them to die before they become terrorists, et cetera., et cetera.
And this dehumanization, this racism, this violence in the Israeli society cannot be fixed by election. I think we need years, maybe decades, to refer
the Israeli society after this government and what happened in the last three years. So, I'm not very much optimistic to the future and the next
government.
AMANPOUR: So, as you know, of course you know, because you're reporting on it, there's a massive spike, as there has been since October 7th, of really
untrammeled and uncontrolled settler violence in the occupied West Bank. And, you know, we see the results of it all the way over here. And now,
you've seen that some 600 retired IDF generals and colonels and other members of the military and security and intelligence establishment have
written a letter to President Trump asking him to condemn the Jewish settler activity and to relay that to Netanyahu. So, Netanyahu was just in
Washington.
Do you think there is any impact that the U.S. government or the Trump administration could have on Netanyahu? And don't forget, this whole border
peace and the 20-point plan is a result of the Trump administration could have on Netanyahu. And don't forget, this whole border peace and the 20-
point plan is a result of the Trump administration and Jared Kushner and Stephen Witkoff.
[13:35:00]
I mean, we don't hear anything more about that right now.
HASSON: Yes, of course. Of course, I think that Trump have leverage, can push Netanyahu to stop what's happening in the West Bank. I think we should
call it in its name. What's going on in the West Bank, it's an ethnic cleansing by definition. Hundreds of, not hundreds, maybe tens of
Palestinians communities were first to leave their villages in the last two years or so.
And this ethnic cleansing is going on under a very symbiotic collaboration between the settlers and the government and the IDF with collective
punishment that we see now in Nablus, with this Jewish terror attacks against Palestinians, with the total indifference by the police and the IDF
to these crimes that committed by the settlers. And so, we have to call it in its name, it's ethnic cleansing.
And I do think the only way that this government will do something to hold it is by international pressure, especially from the government, the U.S.
government.
AMANPOUR: And finally, what do you make of the report by the ADL, the J7 countries, that the level of antisemitism has spiked to a level unknown in
30 years in the diaspora? What do you make of that?
HASSON: What I make of it is that I think there is a -- well, first of all, we have to define what antisemitism is exactly and to take out
criticism against Israel, which many in the Israeli government consider as antisemitism, and I do not.
But there is antisemitism, I do not ignore it. But I think we also have to see the connection between what Israel does in the West Bank and in Gaza
and those waves of antisemitism around the world. We have to take some responsibilities on that as well.
AMANPOUR: Nir Hasson, thank you so much indeed for joining us. Now, more than a third of sitting U.S. senators are over 70 years old and according
to a recent CNN poll, 58 percent of Americans say this poses major problems.
Take Senator Mitch McConnell, who's been absent since June. The 84-year-old is now in rehab after time in hospital recovering from a fall back in June.
But this hasn't silenced concern about his fitness to serve. The governor, Andy Beshear, has called for him to fully reveal his health status or
resign.
Our next guest calls this elderly cohort the old ikigai (ph). Samuel Moyn is a professor at Yale and he joins Hari Sreenivasan to discuss all this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. Samuel Moyn, you've written a recent book. Thanks so much for joining us to
talk about it. It's called "Gerontocracy in America: How the Old are Hoarding Wealth and What to do About It." First, let's just define the
term. What's a gerontocracy and how is America run by one, according to your stats?
SAMUEL MOYN, AUTHOR, "GERONTOCRACY IN AMERICA": Well, gerontocracy is like the word democracy, except this word means the rule of, by and for the old
people.
SREENIVASAN: Give me an example of a disastrous effect because of our politicians being a certain age versus our electorate.
MOYN: Well, I think we should start with the politicians just because we're already talking about them, but see them as the tip of the iceberg,
since after all, it might not matter how old they are if the electorate is old. If Donald Trump somehow doesn't make it another year, we'll
immediately have the youngest president in U.S. history. But we will still have a gerontocracy because of how old the voters are, reaching in some
primaries like in New Mexico in 2024, a median age of 72 and how old wealth is.
The age group likeliest to own a home in this country is 70 to 74. The age group second most likely 75 and above. And we know that the age of home
buying has increased spectacularly over the last 25 years. So, those are examples, but really, it's pervasive.
[13:40:00]
SREENIVASAN: If you wrote this book in 1900, the numbers would be different, partly just because we weren't living as long, right? I mean,
our average age was, what, 47.3 according to the CDC back in 1900, and here we are now, the average age is somewhere around 79 or 80.
So, doesn't it just naturally occur that if our medical advances and our, you know, our improvement in the quality of life overall in the last 125
years is improved, that people would be living longer and therefore having more money, having more power?
MOYN: Of course. So, you know, life extension is behind it all, and the fact that we do expect to live long lives is something to celebrate for
sure. It's just that there's a dark side to it, and what I see is that once the current old people, the silents and especially the boomers, entered the
stage of history, they were there at the right time to benefit from life extension.
And what's happened is they set up a new American reality in which older people control so much more of our national resources and exercise so much
greater power in elections that we wouldn't even expect it based just on the sheer fact of life extension, in part because they've succeeded in
building in, you know, formal privileges for themselves that are, of course, going to be inherited by future generations when they get old too.
So, that's why it's not exactly one generation that's the problem, but a gerontocracy that's going to be benefiting older people for as long as we
can imagine.
SREENIVASAN: So, one of the things that you suggest is an age limit to positions in different types of political office or federal office. What
would that look like?
MOYN: Well, age limits for politicians are wildly popular. I mean, they poll extremely well, and one reason to favor them over term limits, which
are pretty well understood and in part because we've adopted them at the state level, is that politicians are entering political careers much later
in life.
SREENIVASAN: Yes.
MOYN: And that means that a clock that starts ticking in a sense too late won't head off the problem of cognitive decline or death we've been dealing
with. And so, an age limit is very simple. It would just say that at a certain age, I mean, I think, you know, sometime around the age of 70, but
we could push it higher, would be a reasonable age limit, but we could also leave it flexible.
SREENIVASAN: That idea, I think one of the reasons that it chafes against people is that there seems to be something anti-democratic about it. Like
if this the will of the people, this the person that we want to elect, despite their age, despite their background, whatever it is, it's this
group of people, and it was our voice, and we want to elect this person, whether they're 23 or that they're 83, right? How do you square that?
MOYN: Well, first of all, it only chafes a minority because as I mentioned, a vast majority favors age limits for our politicians, but I
think we should give love to those who dissent because they're making a reasonable point.
What I think they're missing is that we don't have democracy, we have gerontocracy. And so, the system we have is systematically producing older
politicians, and so we have to do something to correct it. We see this in two ways. The incumbency advantage in American politics is huge, and that
means that for most people of most ages, you're not even able to vote for someone your own age, only an older person, and then we look at the voters
and especially who's financing elections, and they're also extremely old.
So, if we end up with a system that we call democracy but is actually older people choosing and paying for the results of elections, then we've kind of
kidded ourselves that it's democratic in the first place.
SREENIVASAN: OK. Here's a simple argument that I can hear any retirement community voter making. Hey, look, you know what? If young people cared so
much, they should get out and vote. The fact that their apathy is contributing to this, they can outvote me. There's so many more of them
than there are me. So, what's the problem with that thinking?
MOYN: I'm for shaming younger people, but not too much without recognizing that it's a structural problem in a few ways. We punish younger people for
being mobile through registration requirements. It's much easier if you're retired or powerful at work to leave to go to the polls.
[13:45:00]
We have so many elections that younger people, you know, aren't able to maybe have the time and bandwidth to focus on everyone, and that's why in
the really decisive ones like primaries where candidates are mostly chosen, they're less likely to show up.
Finally, I think we have a syndrome of young people being alienated from our political system, and no wonder, because who did they see in power?
What did they see as the policies that are coming out when they care about climate change, but older voters are least likely to care about it and get
their way and kick it down the road? Why would you invest in a system that's broken? I think we should, and we should urge younger people to go
to vote, but not without understanding that they think it's rigged and they're right.
SREENIVASAN: You spend quite a bit of time in the book also taking the entire judiciary to task. I mean, you point out, you know, how old the
average age of the Supreme Court justices are and how long they serve, and also really just the federal bench of lifetime appointments.
MOYN: I do. Here, it's not just that the federal government is an outlier compared to the states, which have widespread age limits for judges, but in
world perspective, no country has life tenure for judges, and especially when we have such extraordinary power that our Supreme Court justices have,
there's really no argument that I've seen in favor of letting them stay around for life.
We know that in that situation, they're often making bets on their own longevity, especially if they want to be replaced by a friend from their
own party. Ruth Ginsburg did, and the result of losing her bet, sadly, was the destruction of abortion rights at the federal level for millions of
women.
SREENIVASAN: In addition to political power, you believe that older Americans are also hoarding wealth as well. A 2011 Pew Research report said
that between 1984 and 2009, the median net worth of households headed by adults 65 and older rose 42 percent, while the median net worth of
households headed by adults under 35 fell by 68 percent.
When you look at the bank accounts of groups in different age brackets, what's been happening over the past several years?
MOYN: Over the past decades, with only a couple of interruptions, the age wealth gap has exploded. Americans are maybe more familiar with the racial
wealth gap, where if you're not white, you're likely not to be as wealthy. It's -- the age wealth gap is far worse.
Of course, we'd expect older people to have more because they've had more time to accumulate it. But over the last decades, the gap between the old
and everyone else has expanded dramatically, and we have a situation now where the younger age cohort under 40 controls just a fraction, like 5 to
10 percent of overall American wealth, where those over 50 control something like 80 percent. What we're seeing is a concentration of means,
including means to change our politics at the upper end of the age spectrum like it's never been in U.S. history.
SREENIVASAN: You know, one of the reasons that seniors tell me that, you know, if they are saving their money and not spending it and not passing it
on is because the cost of elder care in this country is so unattainable for so many people. A recent Washington Post analysis found that the median
American spent $19,179 out of pocket on care in their final decade. One in six spent more than $50,000, and one in 20 spent more than $100,000.
Is it possible that the elderly are just holding on to that money knowing that they're going to need it to age comfortably in these last years?
MOYN: It's not just possible, it's definite, because we know from studies that, you know, it's scary to get old. And, you know, it's always going to
be scary because death is scary, but a lot of people just don't know how expensive it's going to be and above all, for how long they're going to
need funds.
But we should also be honest. There are a lot of rich old people for whom the amounts you cited aren't a lot. And then there are those who reasonably
expect the kind of welfare state that Europeans have where long-term care is covered. And, you know, we should tax the first group.
[13:50:00]
And to the second group, we should say, come with us and build an America in which you don't have to fear getting older and not being able to afford,
you know, just the basic decencies of life.
SREENIVASAN: Let's talk a bit about economic access to capital and how the money and jobs breaks down in America. You're saying right now the seed
suites are top-heavy with people who are older and just aren't getting out of the way. Should I put constraints on your critique here that you're
talking about white-collar executive work, right?
MOYN: Absolutely.
SREENIVASAN: Because there are a lot of people in America who cannot afford to retire. I mean, that's a completely different crisis.
MOYN: Completely.
SREENIVASAN: But there are a lot of elder people working jobs that are just minimum wage or better.
MOYN: Exactly, or worse. You know, the poverty rate for older Americans is no worse than anyone else's. And it's far better than the poverty rate of
children, in part because we have a system that always preserves elder benefits but is willing, like in Donald Trump's one big beautiful bill, to
cut aid for poor children.
But you're absolutely right. We should help those aging Americans who need help even more than we do now. The question is about who has power. There
we can see that it's also the aging who have disproportionately more, I would argue, too much. So, the challenge is to deal with both problems at
once, but it's very doable.
SREENIVASAN: OK. So, what are the most practical solutions here? You've talked about trying to increase youth representation. You've talked about
mandatory limits on certain types of jobs. What are things that we could actually politically do to try to fix this?
MOYN: Well, I'll just, you know, mention housing, because we haven't talked a lot about it, but we do need to break the stranglehold of older
people on the housing stock. And I think the most feasible way, and it's very reasonable, is to figure out how to make land use decisions outside
the local level, which are sadly controlled by older people going to the relevant meetings.
And the sad thing is, the result is that new building is blocked even for senior appropriate housing. If we did believe that not just younger people
deserve a fair shot at their own home, but that older people deserve their senior appropriate housing, whether it's state built or, you know,
privately built, we need to figure out how to make sure that there's more housing built in the first place for -- that's appropriate for folks of all
ages.
I also think, you know, this going to be a little bit more controversial, but relaxing our immigration restrictionism, which has surged in the last
couple of decades, is a must. Actually, it turns out that older voters are most in favor of immigration controls, and yet they're the ones who might
benefit the most from more Americans, because who's going to work to pay for their social security, and who's going to do the work of caring for
them but immigrants?
And so, this another example of how there are easily available fixes that ought not to be a hard sell. It's just that we don't have the politicians
to voice the need for them, and why is that? Well, that takes us back to the age of our politicians, I'm afraid.
SREENIVASAN: The book is called "Gerontocracy in America." Author Samuel Moyne, thanks so much.
MOYN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Interesting points. And finally, the wind reverberating around the world this week, ending one of the longest droughts in sports history
and breaking an Irish curse. The people of County Mayo in the west of Ireland are celebrating victory in the all-Ireland Gaelic football
championship after waiting 75 years to lift the trophy. Just look at these scenes of jubilation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Green and Red of Mayo was about to be heard all over the world. This is sensational. This is mindboggling. This is a point.
75 years of heartbreak. Our birthland. 1936. 1950. 1951. And surely now, 2026. Listen to the roar. 75 years of heartbreak is over. (INAUDIBLE)
senior football champions. 2026.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: It really matters. An amateur sport, no less. These players don't get paid, American viewers will have heard of the Boston Red Sox
curse, of the Bambino, finally broken in 2004, or the Chicago Cubs curse, of the Billy Goat, which lasted 71 years. Well, folklore says Mayo were
cursed by an Irish priest back in 1951. Their win now has been viewed tens of millions of times. Winning congratulations from Joe Biden, Canadian
Prime Minister Mark Carney, and the band, Oasis, all sons of Mayo.
That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
