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Amanpour
Interview with Former Spanish Ambassador to the E.U. Pablo Garcia- Berdoy; Interview with Former European Commissioner for Home Affairs Cecilia Malmstrom; Interview with Former Acting U.S. Ambassador to South Korea Joseph Yun; Interview with Africa CDC Director General Jean Kaseya. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 18, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If they can work and have papers, great. The rest is an invasion, they tell us. They are people
who don't want to integrate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: As anti-immigration sentiment grows, a special report from Jomana Karadsheh on the migrant workforce feeding Europe under grueling
conditions. And I ask former Spanish ambassador Pablo Garcia-Berdoy and a former top E.U. official about the future of Europe's migration policy.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We have 39,000 soldiers over there guarding you from Kim Jong-un, your next-door neighbor, and you're not going to help
us on a very easy military operation in Iran?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- Trump pulls back on military drills with South Korea while touting his very good relationship with Kim Jong-un. Veteran diplomat
Joseph Yun gives us his analysis on this unusual shift.
Plus, the Democratic Republic of Congo's Ebola outbreak is now the deadliest the country has ever seen. Head of the Africa Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention joins me.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
We are also human, words on a protest banner in Ceuta as hundreds of migrants gather to demand asylum in Spain. Many are living in makeshift
shacks along the beach under the scorching heat as security tightens following the extraordinary mass crossing two weeks ago that saw tens of
thousands swim and climb over the Moroccan-Spanish border, with dozens losing their lives in the attempt.
Videos of these dramatic scenes sent shockwaves across many European countries while intensifying the far-right's anti-immigrant narratives. And
yet, Spain itself is increasingly reliant on the labor of immigrants in order to function. Correspondent Jomana Karadsheh has this report
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chaos and utter human despair at Spain's stores, scenes that fast became fuel for the far-right
and growing anti-immigration voices on both sides of the Atlantic. But behind these images lies a more complex reality, as we found on our journey
to try to understand Europe's immigration debate and what drives so many to risk everything to get here.
KARADSHEH: We're in the middle of a sea of plastic so vast, it's visible from space. Greenhouses everywhere you look. This is Almeria in southern
Spain. It is often described as Europe's vegetable garden because of this concentration of greenhouses. It produces millions of tons of fresh fruit
and vegetables every year, enough to feed half a billion people.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): In the shadow of one of Europe's agricultural heartlands exists a darker side rarely seen, slums like this one that have
been around for years, home to part of the massive African workforce helping feed this continent. In a scene of squalor in modern-day Europe, we
find migrants from north and West Africa.
In his previous life, Amoateng Foster was a math teacher in Ghana. Two years ago, he left it all behind, saying he paid smugglers about $2,300 for
a perilous journey through Libya and across the Mediterranean, eventually making it to Spain.
AMOATENG FOSTER, GHANAIAN MIGRANT WORKER: And I'm not going to recommend anybody to do so. Very dangerous.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): He shows us around this rundown shack he shares with another worker.
FOSTER: So, this is my place.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): Amoateng's story is that of so many parents, enduring these subhuman conditions all for the future of his kids, he says,
to save enough to put them through college.
KARADSHEH: A lot of people are saying, we don't want any migrants. Close the borders. I mean, how does it make you feel?
FOSTER: It becomes a little bit worried. Everything that they are doing here is farming. And the workers that they are using, it's all of us were
immigrants. This white people, they can't do it. The government has saw the need that we are helping them, they also helping us. It's a mutual benefit.
[13:05:00]
KARADSHEH (voice-over): The Spanish economy relies on migrant workers so heavily that the government announced an amnesty in April, offering legal
status to hundreds of thousands already in the country. Amoateng hopes being here legally would bring him rights and respect.
FOSTER: If you are outside the fence, you may think that it's rosy here. It's not rosy here. Look at the environment that we live in. But when you
are outside, you may think that, oh, Europe is Europe. No, no, no, no, there is no rosy here because you suffer before you can get a cent. Do you
know how much they are giving us -- how much they give us here, to work in this farm for one hour, they give you five euro. This hot environment like
this, you kneel down like this, work continuously just like that, and they give you five euro.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): We get a glimpse into that grueling reality Amoateng described inside one of the countless greenhouses. These men spend
hours delicately planting tomatoes. Their hard labor will soon fill the shelves of European supermarkets. In the sweltering summer heat,
temperatures must remain constant in here.
KARADSHEH: We've been here for a few minutes, and this heat is intense. I'm sweating, and I can't begin to imagine what it's like for these guys
working in these conditions, in this heat. Apparently, it hit 44 degrees or 111 Fahrenheit earlier today, and they have to do this for hours and hours.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): The owner of this greenhouse told us he only hires documented workers and pays the legal minimum wage. But across Almeria, you
find so many who are undocumented, vulnerable to exploitation, some of it happening in plain sight. At roundabouts and street corners, they wait to
be picked up for off-the-book jobs that pay well below the minimum wage. Off-camera, business owners told us they pay what they can afford to still
make a profit.
The arrival of foreign labor helped revive a region that was once in decline. All around here, you find thriving migrant communities that have
left their mark on this place. And the far-right has seized on that. In suburbs like La Canada, that overwhelmingly voted for the populist radical
right party Vox in the last election, we find pensioners echoing the rhetoric of these parties.
If they can work and have papers, great. The rest is an invasion, they tell us. They are people who don't want to integrate.
It's a narrative that's been gaining traction across Europe. Fears of demographic change and migrants being blamed for the rise in the cost of
living. Scattered graffiti hints at brewing tensions. This one reads, no Muslims, no NGOs.
Perhaps a message for the groups on the front line of this crisis, like the Mercedarian Sisters of Charity. The calls for help to this Catholic NGO
helping migrants get back on their feet seem non-stop during our visit.
SISTER FRANCISCA, MERCEDARIAN SISTERS OF CHARITY (through translator): No, I'm sorry my boy.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): Sister Francisca turned 80 this month, but there's no rest for this woman on a mission.
FRANCISCA (through translator): The most common this is that ask us for is a sandwich, and they tell us, I'm hungry.
KARADSHEH: So, they come saying we're hungry, we want a sandwich.
FRANCISCA (through translator): Of course, they come here asking for something to eat.
KARADSHEH (voice-over): At their food distribution center, the hungry queue for donations from local supermarkets. Amal tells us she hasn't eaten
today. Sometimes she doesn't have money to buy water and bread. She had to leave her six- and four-year-old children in Morocco, she tells us, and
came here on a contract to pick strawberries. After a dispute with her employer, she found herself on the street begging for any work. It was
poverty that brought me here, she says. If I had something back home, I wouldn't have come.
Sister Francisca remembers a time when there were no migrants here, then the greenhouses came. The road to a better life has led so many to this
miserable place. It is in this land of plastic and shattered dreams where Europe's paradox is laid bare.
Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Almeria, Spain.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And now, returning to Ceuta, the Spanish government says that it will set up temporary tents there to host 1,500 people, though it is
unclear as to what will happen to the remaining migrants in the city or how long the situation will last, leaving many people in limbo.
Frustration is also growing among residents of the North African enclave as local health services are reportedly overwhelmed. And Ceuta's mayor accuses
the Spanish government of almost total passivity, threatening to sue if this influx isn't resolved within 30 days.
[13:10:00]
To help us unpack all of this is former Spanish ambassador to the E.U., Pablo Garcia-Berdoy, who joins me now from Malaga. Mr. Ambassador, thank
you so much for joining us. You were Spain's ambassador to the E.U. for five years, so that overlapped with the 2021 Ceuta crisis when 12,000
people crossed over. This time we know the number was six times almost larger than that was.
So, my question to you is, was the E.U.'s response to this proportionate to scale? How do you think they performed?
PABLO GARCIA-BERDOY, FORMER SPANISH AMBASSADOR TO THE E.U.: Well, at that time in 2021, I think the solidarity of the E.U. was complete and we were
able to develop a common narrative to just break the idea that there was an invasion of a particular city. But it was an attack to European territory.
And that was very clear to our neighbors and friends.
GOLODRYGA: Spain, we should note, took in more than three million migrants between 2021 and 2023. That is the largest influx in its history. The Bank
of Spain actually credits immigration for a quarter of the per capita GDP growth over that period of time. Spain's economy has outperformed that of
Germany, France and the U.K. since the pandemic, which leads to the question of whether Spain is running a more successful and streamlined
immigration process than its European neighbors. And if so, can that be replicated?
GARCIA-BERDOY: Well, let's put it this way. There is an element there that is very important. I was ambassador in Romania, for instance. And when I
arrived to Romania in 2004, there were less than 40,000 Romanians living in Spain. When I left, there were 1 million Romanians living in Spain. And
there was a very successful integration process that still is a very active part of the society.
Then what has happened, probably due to the growth of the Spanish economy, but also to these new waves of migration, is that migrants come in big
numbers. Some irregular migrants come, and the process of regularization has been starting very strongly in 2026. But the GDP per capita is not
growing at the same pace. Meaning, the GDP growth of Spain has been growing. The numbers of inhabitants have been growing. But that also means
that the GDP per capita is not growing at the same pace.
GOLODRYGA: We've seen, obviously, this become a linchpin in politics here. The far-right Vox party has been rising in polls, and they're pointing to
situations and scenes like we saw two weeks ago there in Soweto as an example of why Prime Minister Sanchez has failed the people. Their slogan
is, secure borders mean affordable housing.
We know that the majority of those migrants were returned to Morocco within days, though, as we noted, there are still a significant number that are in
Soweto, and there's real frustration there and pressure on the local community. Can you just give us a sense of the impact that these migrants
have on housing? Is it making it more unaffordable for Spaniards?
GARCIA-BERDOY: Well, I don't know. I think the figures are not clear, and I'm not going to go into this debate because I think it needs a more
careful assessment. What is really -- I mean, we have to think about migration is a very difficult issue. So, whoever comes to the public debate
saying that they can solve it just like that, I don't think they are saying the truth.
And migration is a difficult issue all over the world. You have shown very dramatic images, and I was very touched by your colleague in Almeria and
the conversation they had with the locals. What is really difficult is to approach migration with the instruments that we used to have. Now, with
social networks, with, you know, facilities for communication, for transport, the numbers that we are talking about are completely different
to the ones that classical migration used to have.
So, my take is that we have to have a serious conversation about migration, trying to have a more scientific approach towards what is really going on,
and of course trying to be careful not losing the control in our borders, trying to have a more scientific approach towards what is really going on,
and of course trying to be careful not losing the control in our borders, which is one of the main public policies that all states should have.
[13:15:00]
GOLODRYGA: How effective is a scientific approach relative to just scenes like we've seen on our screens and that were wall-to-wall two weeks ago
when some 60,000, 70,000 migrants crossed over? Because we have that impact here on our politics. You can say one thing about the economy, you can say
one thing about migration, show the facts, show the figures. If voters are feeling different, that's what they base their voting on.
GARCIA-BERDOY: Exactly. No, you are absolutely right. Actually, what happened in Felta (ph) at the end of July I wouldn't call properly a
migration issue. I think it had other political elements, because, I mean, you don't receive in just 48 hours more than 70,000 migrants just like
that. This is not a normal migration or migratory movement.
What I think we should think about is how can we give the people who want to come to Spain or to Europe or to the U.S. to work in our economies, to
help our economies to develop a life for themselves, how can we help them and try to avoid confusing that with the migratory movements that are
fueled mainly by business-oriented people who deal with migratory movements as a way to make money.
So, we have to be careful because everything can be well organized if we have the means to do it. But of course, for migratory movements, we need
the support, the cooperation and the help of the countries of origin and the countries of transit. And that was the traditional policy of Spanish
governments, all conservative and socialist.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and there's a question of how effective that was, given that this was allowed to happen. There had been some reporting that the
Moroccan authorities perhaps turned the other cheek and looked the other way. But a lot of confusion, nonetheless, surrounding how exactly this was
allowed to occur and still piecing this all together has an impact far beyond just the Spanish government, but all of Europe. Pablo Garcia-Berdoy,
former Spanish ambassador to the E.U., thank you for joining the show.
GARCIA-BERDOY: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Well, the recent mass crossing is exposing a divide, as we've noted, in Europe's immigration policy. Italy saw what happened in Ceuta as
a national security threat, placing a partial suspension on its Schengen arrangements with Spain. This despite Ceuta not being part of the Schengen
area. In response, the Spanish government has established border controls for all flights and ships from Italy, leaving travelers caught up in this
tit-for-tat feud.
So, how can the E.U. countries reconcile their differences and stay cohesive in their approach to immigration? I'm joined by former European
Commissioner for Home Affairs, Cecilia Malmstrom, for more on this. Commissioner Malmstrom, welcome to the program.
It's important that experts were calling Ceuta the real first test for the E.U.'s new pact on migration and asylum, and one could give it a failing
grade if that, in fact, was the first real test. The most recent mechanisms were just added this past June, and yet, after invoking them within days of
this surge, as we noted, Italy suspended open borders with Spain, France announced a five-fold increase in border police, and Portugal tightened its
own southern controls as well.
You were part of that group building the Schengen's legal architecture. When you see authorities and elected officials in a number of these
neighboring countries first instinct in a crisis, resorting to what they did as opposed to enforcing these mechanisms, what does that tell you about
the sanctity of this agreement?
CECILIA MALMSTROM, FORMER EUROPEAN COMMISSIONER FOR HOME AFFAIRS: Well, it was obviously a failure to the E.U. migration pact. As you said, it entered
into force only this June, and the reaction to the events in Ceuta in July were clearly a very strong overreaction.
And we see a totally different atmosphere in Europe today than 10 years ago. We have very strong extreme right parties. Migration is an issue in
many countries. We have important elections coming up. We have the presidential election in France next May. We have elections in Sweden. Many
political leaders and opposition are today using this as a way.
[13:20:00]
And so, (INAUDIBLE) right into that debate in so many countries.
GOLODRYGA: But these were countries, these weren't just right-leaning countries, I mean, some of these were more progressive governments also
taking this alarmist position in the hours after this surge that we've seen. Nonetheless, they've since backed down. But 22 of 27 member states
signed a letter accusing Spain of creating a pull factor before facts were even established. This is just within hours.
So, what does that say about the state of trust within E.U. members?
MALMSTROM: Well, Spain has its own migration policy, to say. They have started a kind of policy where they have offered to regularize the people
coming to Spain, mainly from Latin America. And that process is ongoing. And that is something that Spain has the right to do. As you said in
earlier discussion, Spain needs these people. But that is a totally different process than what we saw happen in Ceuta, where there was a
pressure probably provoked by -- well, we don't really know, but of course Morocco played a part in that as well.
So, Spain's unique approach to migration is provoking the rest of Europe. So, the first reaction when it happened was not solidarity as the migration
pact subscribes. It was, oh, it's your fault. You have provoked, you have invited them, which was not at all the case. So, it shows you today that
even so-called progressive parties or more center parties are still adopting a very tough rhetoric and a tougher agenda on migration in
basically all parties -- all countries of the European Union today.
GOLODRYGA: Given everything that you've just laid out, and we don't know the origins, perhaps it was the confluence sort of a perfect storm based on
a court ruling, then rumors, then social media misinformation, all of that coupled together. And we saw the end result.
You ran Home Affairs. What does that say about stability and rule of law in the E.U.? If we could see such a debacle ensue following what may have very
likely been just misinformation and a rumor?
MALMSTROM: Well, normally, the European Union countries have rather good control over their borders, but at times they are these peaks. This was not
a normal peak, as the ambassador explained as well. There were 80,000 people coming in a very short moment to little tiny Ceuta, which has 80,000
inhabitants. And we don't know the origins, but somehow their passing was facilitated by someone. So, this was an exception. I don't think that we
should take this as a norm.
But nevertheless, there was very little solidarity until after all the ministers had met, discussed it. Then they changed a little bit the tone
and said, OK, we sympathize with Spain. We will work together to see that this doesn't happen again. But as you also said, in Italy, for instance,
they have now sort of excluded Spain from the Schengen Cooperation, which is a remarkable action because Ceuta is not part of Schengen. And none of
these migrants were still there. A couple of thousand have even entered to the Spanish mainland.
GOLODRYGA: So, is your -- then is your conclusion that there should be no result in change or no new policy or at least perhaps beyond just a
communique of what could be done differently in a similar situation going forward after this? This was sort of a onetime anomaly?
MALMSTROM: Well, this was very spectacular, I think. But of course, there is pressure to many countries. You see these boats coming with migrants who
are seeking a better future in Europe. And this is toxic in the political debate. There will be a meeting in a couple of weeks with all the heads of
states of the European Union. They will discuss this. We'll see what comes out of it.
But it is a situation today where migration is seen as mainly a problem. And Spain is challenging the saying that, yes, we have to regulate
migration. We have to, you know, control our borders. But migrants can also be an asset. And the demographic situation in many countries is such as we,
you know, migration would be needed. But it's very, very difficult to discuss this in the current political debate. And as I said, many important
elections are coming up. So, I don't see any major changes coming in the short-term.
GOLODRYGA: But isn't that isn't that just sweeping it under the rug if it's just too politically difficult to discuss right now? This is a
significant problem. And for many voters, this is likely their number one issue. So, if not to address it now, but to wait till later, I don't know
if that's considered a healthy solution.
[13:25:00]
But I do want to ask you if you just look back now, because it's been about 10 years since the E.U.'s first major externalization deal, and that was
with Turkey in 2016. We've seen that model spread to Libya, obviously now with Morocco. Has it worked?
MALMSTROM: Not really. Some -- partly it has worked, but there is this tendency to externalize the borders and there are even more proposals on
the agenda to set up camps where people can ask for asylum outside the European Union. Is this good or bad? Well, that is the political mood right
now in many countries.
So, it will be discussed. Absolutely. We'll be on the agenda the whole fall. And we do have this migration pact that just entered into force. Now,
member states did not live up to it. But of course, the situation was very, very specific. And people went back after 24 or 48 hours. So, let's see
what happens. But it will continue to be one of the main issues in most member countries for the time.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. I mean, I think there's a big concern as to what bad actors, perhaps Russia, Belarus, you know what they've learned from seeing
this vulnerability exposed as well. Something that started perhaps on a rumor could be perhaps a well-orchestrated attack by an adversary in the
future.
Yes. Cecilia Malmstrom, we'll have to leave it there.
MALMSTROM: We have -- before we have --
GOLODRYGA: I'm so sorry, we'll have to have you back on.
MALMSTROM: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: I know this is a very important conversation. We'll have you back on board again for sure. Thank you.
Coming up. For us, tensions simmer between Trump and South Korea as the president cozies up to their northern neighbor, Kim Jong-un. We'll have a
report on the latest and how South Korea is trying to save the alliance after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to the program. South Korean President Lee Jae Myung is urging that a solid alliance with the United States is mutually
necessary. This comes after President Trump said the U.S. would be greatly reducing its annual military exercises with South Korea, citing huge costs
and his, quote, "very good relationship with North Korea's Kim Jong-un."
[13:30:00]
Trump's open admiration for dictators and autocrats is not new, but as the U.S. diverts critical military assets to Iran, allies in the region are
questioning whether they can rely on Washington's security commitments.
Joseph Yun is a veteran diplomat who served as U.S. special representative for North Korea policy under both Obama and President Trump. Plus, he was
acting ambassador to South Korea, India, and the United States. Under Biden, he joins me now from Portland, Oregon. Ambassador Yun, welcome to
the program.
So, let's just talk about what happened over the weekend. I think it shocked a lot of people, including perhaps those at the Pentagon, when in
short notice, the president ordered Secretary Hegseth to substantially reduce the number of troops and exercises on the eve of these drills with
South Korea. On day one, the Pentagon can't even quantify what's being cut here.
You've sat across from the North Koreans. How are they interpreting what appears to be some sort of concession for the U.S. when at least formal
talks aren't even happening?
JOSEPH YUN, FORMER ACTING U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH KOREA: So, from North Korean point of view, this should not be a surprise. It's not a secret that
President Trump has been wanting to re-engage with the North Koreans. This, he believes, is a largely -- very large, unfinished business from his first
term.
So, he's made it clear from the beginning, even when he was elected after inauguration, that he wants to engage with North Korea. Of course, it takes
two to tango. And so, far, there has not been any substantive response from the North Koreans. From their point of view, you know, they've seen what
happens to Iran. They have seen what happens to Ukraine. So, for them, their ownership, their own nuclear weapons are really guarantee of their
security. So, to get into any discussion with the United States based on denuclearization for them is a non-starter.
So, yesterday, President Trump mentioned that there had been some outreach or some response from North Koreans. But I'm not sure how substantive that
is. I mean, for example, is it like the letters the two leaders exchanged during Trump's first term? Remember the so-called love letters, or was it a
meeting of special envoys? So, it's really unclear how North Koreans see this.
And really, to make another point, their position, North Korean position, is materially different now than what it was five years ago. They're a lot
stronger. So, it's a very difficult thing.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, they are a lot stronger. They're estimated to possess some 60 nuclear warheads, obviously a lot of technical experience on the ground
fighting with Russia and its war in Ukraine and some expertise there that has been shared as well, technologically.
I want to go back to the president's comment yesterday about whether or not he had heard or there had been communications from Kim Jong-un with the
White House. Let's play that exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why hasn't Kim Jong-un responded to your request to have a conversation?
TRUMP: How do you know he has a responded?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has he
TRUMP: Yes, he has. Kim Jong-un has always treated me with great respect and we met on numerous occasions, actually two primary occasions, spoken
and spent time. I understand him, he understands me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, Ambassador, you know how Pyongyang communicates. Do you believe the president? Do you take him at his word there that there has
been some sort of outreach?
YUN: Again, you know, outreach covers many things, as does diplomatic meeting. And so, what level will it be? I we really have to take President
Trump's word that there has been an outreach. I believe that. But again, at what level? And was there a follow on? Was there an agreement to meet? All
those remains, you know, uncertain. And so, far, we have not heard anything from North Korea.
So, I do think we have to take it with a pinch of salt whether the meeting will take place and how soon. But it is entirely possible. For example, if
I were Kim Jong-un, I would not want to make President Trump angry or mad. So, why not go along?
[13:35:00]
GOLODRYGA: Well, there seemed to be quite a bit of surprise in Seoul following this news for the president over the weekend that these exercises
would be reduced. Their response was muted. There had been hopes from this administration, from President Lee, for more open dialogue between
President Trump and Kim Jong-un, perhaps not in this form because it does raise questions about U.S. security. But here's what President Lee said in
a cabinet meeting today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE JAE MYUNG, SOUTH KOREAN PRESIDENT (through translator): A solid South Korea-U.S. alliance and independent defense capability are mutually
necessary conditions, meaning an alliance needs to be firm for the foundation of security to be even stronger, and we need to grow our own
strength to enhance our value and necessity as an ally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, this is viewed as a more dovish administration relative to his predecessor and that failed coup in terms of relations with the North.
Nonetheless, could the same could the same policy or thought process be applied from South Korea that you just said perhaps is what's being applied
from North Korea, meaning they just don't want to anger President Trump or the White House? So, they're trying to go along with what the president has
said.
YUN: I think you are absolutely right in your assessment. Number one, yes, this is much more progressive administration, liberal administration, and
they want to pursue much more engagement and dialogue with North Korea.
However, you know, of course, President Lee is a politician. There is a vast amount of Koreans, I would say by far the majority, who regard
alliance with United States, military alliance and guarantee of security from the United States as very important. So, I think the government
itself, as you say, has been muted, has been quite diplomatic, emphasizing the strength of the alliance, while at the same time publicly welcoming
this overture from President Trump to North Korea.
So, I think there are all those things, including making sure they don't upset President Trump too much. And why not have talks? Because that is the
instinct of the progressive government in South Korea. However, dealing, you know, when the exercises have just started, trying to cut them down
will send quite mixed signals to those who support the alliance in the region, countries like, you know, Japan and, of course, South Korea. And I
am sure it is something of a mixed signal to North Koreans, too.
GOLODRYGA: What is the signal that the president's message, while it may be in line with President Lee and his approach to the North, what signal
does it send? You mentioned Japan, the region as a whole, but to South Koreans, I believe recent polling suggests that given their lack of
security or commitment that they feel from the United States, that they are more willing and leaning more towards becoming nuclear nations of their
own.
YUN: I think there is huge support among the South Korean public to have an indigenous, their own nuclear program. And this is, I believe, because
the alliance, the nuclear umbrella is not as secure as it used to be. They're worried about, on the one hand, North Korea, as you mentioned, they
have anything between 50 and 80 nuclear weapons getting stronger, both militarily and strategically, and they feel exposed to that threat.
And number two, whether U.S. security guarantee is as binding as it used to be. So, there is tremendous amount of unease among the South Korean public.
And so, there is this feeling that we also should have nuclear weapons of our own. And certainly, technologically, they are capable of having nuclear
weapons. The problem is going to be where is United States on this? Where is Japan on this? Where is the International Community on this?
[13:40:00]
If they embark on a nuclear program, will they be sanctioned, victimized, and so on? So, that is the dilemma that South Koreans face right now.
GOLODRYGA: And a bit of a head-scratcher too, because there doesn't seem to be much logic with President Trump bombing a country that is a threshold
state in terms of developing its own nuclear weapons, versus placating a country like North Korea, which has some 60 nuclear warheads. It's already
established as a nuclear state. The message would be for almost any country. The takeaway from the war with Iran is that people should -- or
the countries, should domesticate their own nuclear programs.
How much of this is just, in terms of assessing the timing, the President's frustration, as he's explicitly laid out, with South Korea for not aiding
the United States, though he said the United States didn't need help, but at least offering to help the United States with its war in Iran and the
Strait of Hormuz, and also what many, or what he feels at least, is a very slow trade deal that had been negotiated.
YUN: I think you are right in your assessment that there is deep disappointment within the Trump administration towards South Korea. As you
mentioned, there is disappointment that so much of the promised investment funds, remember only a year ago, South Koreans promised some $350 billion
in investments to the United States, and in return for reduction in tariffs. So, that, I don't think much has been delivered on that front.
And second, there was a call to help out on Iran, and South Korea, like most of the other allies, I think chose to backtrack it, if not ignore it,
so there is a little bit of disappointment in that. And third is, I think, President Trump's own disappointment with how the situation is in Iran. So,
really, I think it's a mixture of all three that South Koreans face right now.
GOLODRYGA: When the president suspended drills back in 2018, it was during a live negotiation at the time with Pyongyang. And in 2024, Christiane
spoke with South Korea's foreign secretary at the time about those talks, who called them a missed opportunity. Here's what else was said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANG KYUNG-WHA, FORMER SOUTH KOREAN FOREIGN MINISTER: The president has tremendous desire, intention to do something, but there was very little
backup at the working level. And this is the typical Trump leadership on these issues. Will, but very little follow up and support from the working
level. So, that's a huge lesson when we ever go back to a phase of engagement with North Korea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And in that same interview, she went on to describe those talks in 2018 as a debacle. Do you agree with her assessment? Do you think then,
given the results from 2018, given how much stronger North Korea has become militarily, that it is worth having another round of talks? What are you
hoping for now? What would be the best avenue going forward?
YUN: Look, I am a diplomat, Korean diplomat. I always think it's worth having a talk. Talking is better than not talking. And so, you need to set
an agenda, have goals that you can accomplish. I believe this is the case in Iran. I believe this is the case anywhere. Talking is better than not
talking.
But we also, at the same time, have to be realistic what we're talking about. I do believe the nuclear agenda is the most urgent agenda with North
Korea. So, are we talking? If you tell the North Koreans, yes, get rid of your nuclear weapons, they're not going to listen. They're not even going
to agree to come to talks.
So, talks has to be on the basis where you can progress. Perhaps the ultimate goal is to denuclearize. But again, that has to be done by step by
step. The first step could be freeze in nuclear program. So, you have 60 nuclear weapons. Can we freeze it there?
[13:45:00]
So, again, talking is worthwhile always, but it has to be done with responsibility in mind and with realism.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, it appears though at this point, Kim Jong-un feels that he has the authority and power and leverage to dictate what would lead up to
those talks. And one of those points is the United States accepting North Korea as a nuclear power. Joseph Yun, former acting U.S. ambassador to
South Korea, thank you so much for joining the show.
YUN: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And coming up, the WHO warns that the DRC Ebola outbreak is spreading at an unprecedented speed as it's ruled the deadliest in the
country's history. I speak to the head of Africa's Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That's after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to the program. A lethal outbreak and a losing battle to contain it. The Democratic Republic of Congo has now declared the
ongoing Ebola outbreak the deadliest in the country's history. The virus has claimed the lives of more than 2,300 people in just six months, with
the WHO warning that it's in a phase of intense transmission. This outbreak is on track to overtake the devastating spread of the virus across West
Africa from 2014 to 2016. And it's feared this will become the largest Ebola outbreak in history. There is currently no vaccine for this
particular strain.
Let's bring in Dr. Jean Kaseya, Director General of Africa Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. He's joining me now from Namibia's capital.
Dr. Kaseya, thank you so much for joining us right now. Can you just explain to our audience why this virus is spreading so quickly right now?
DR. JEAN KASEYA, DIRECTOR GENERAL, AFRICA CDC: Thank you so much for having me. There are so many reasons. The first one is we didn't detect
that early enough. And we know from some studies that this outbreak started around February, but we declared that in May.
The second reason is the insecurity in this region with so many rebels. The third reason is the humanitarian context.
[13:50:00]
And the fourth one we didn't manage to bring the response at community level. And for all of these reasons, we can see the consequence today. But
what is important is the decision that we make to move forward and to stop that.
GOLODRYGA: I'm just wondering, because as we reported coming into this segment, that this disease is spreading right now at a rate faster than the
last outbreak that we covered about 10 years ago. So, what lessons, if any, were learned and clearly not implemented following that outbreak this time
around?
DR. KASEYA: I think there is no single failure and no single institution to blame today. But there are lessons we must confront. First, as we said,
when we didn't identify this outbreak early enough, there are consequences. What are we doing now? We are bringing back now the response at community
level.
And I want to thank President Tshisekedi. When I met him on the 5th of August, we agreed on that. We are bringing also all tools that we have,
like Remdesivir. That is this medicine that the U.S. with Gilead, they are manufacturing. We are also bringing some lessons we have from vaccine. I'm
so confident now that with actions that we are conducting, we can think to stop this outbreak very soon.
GOLODRYGA: This particular strain is the Bundibugyo species of Ebola, and there hasn't been a vaccine developed yet for this particular strain that's
proved to be so lethal. How close are we to a vaccine?
DR. KASEYA: You know, vaccination is an important part of our response. But we must also be scientifically precise. Bundibugyo is not the same
virus for which our existing Zaire Ebola vaccine we have. But the context is different.
But we need also to ask the most important question is, why should a continent of 1.45 billion people must continue to find itself waiting for
life-saving medical product coming from Western countries? I think this is the question that even created this mistrust between communities, health
workers, and the leaders. And currently, we are conducting some clinical trials, but we are clear on that. We need to manufacture this product from
Africa for Africans, and that will help us for the future.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, trust is so important because even if a vaccine exists, there's a question of distribution, and then there's a question of people
willing to take the vaccine. There are a number of factors and consequences, as you've noted, in leading to the death toll that we're
seeing in this outbreak.
Nearly one in every two confirmed cases is now fatal, and some 5,000 confirmed cases have been reported deaths surpassing, as we noted, the last
outbreak. It's all coming as the US, over the last year and a half, has withdrawn USAID.
You mentioned a lack of urgency from the global community. What role is that playing right now, specifically from the United States?
DR. KASEYA: You know, I'm not blaming as that of the general African system. I'm not just blaming one country. I'm blaming, first, our own
African leaders. They didn't invest enough to their health systems. Now, I can tell you, I come from the SADC meeting, the South African Development
Community in South Africa. I see our leaders are saying they are investing now in their system.
The second blame, it's all our partners. You know, mostly all of them, they decided to cut money to Africa. But the issue is they decided to cut this
money suddenly. They didn't even give us some time to say, get ready. And it's a major lesson, but for me, it's also an opportunity. Like for this
Ebola outbreak, before going to Western countries, I started in Africa. We got $110 million from Africa without going to partners. I think this is the
sovereignty I'm talking about on a daily basis.
And this is also making us respected. I want to say thank you to the U.S. They contributed around $400 million to this Ebola outbreak and other
partners. But the main question is to the US. They contributed around $400 million to this Ebola outbreak and other partners.
[13:55:00]
But the main question is to whom they are giving this money, are we sure that this money is going to the field? This is the conversation that we are
having with the U.S. colleagues.
GOLODRYGA: We can't be having it more forcefully enough. A time is of the essence here. People's lives are at stake. Dr. Kesaya, thank you so much
for joining us. We really appreciate it.
And finally, on a lighter note, a conservation comeback. We're going to end on some good news for you today. For the first time in nearly three
decades, leatherback turtles are returning to this coastal village in Panama. Locals are hailing the milestone, which they say reflects years of
grassroots environmental work, with at least one nesting turtle coming ashore to hatch. It is a rare win for the natural world and the fight to
protect these endangered, friendly giants. All right. Told you it was good news.
That is it for now. Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
