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Amanpour

Interview with Hamas Political Bureau Member and Senior Hamas Official Basem Naim; Interview with U.S. State Department Former Director of Policy Planning Richard Haass. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired August 20, 2026 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Israel rejects the 15-point plan. The IDF will not carry out any withdrawal until

the dismantling of Hamas and its weapons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Israeli strikes on Gaza continue as Trump's peace plan remains deadlocked. Hamas has accepted the plan. I speak with the senior leader of

its political bureau, Basem Naim.

And veteran U.S. diplomat Richard Haass has been at the table for peace negotiations from Northern Ireland to the Middle East. We talk about the

hard work of resolving long-running conflicts.

Then, a violent attack in a playground for the super-rich. Correspondent Matthew Chance goes to Monaco to unravel an international assassination

plot.

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Ten months since Israel and Hamas agreed to a ceasefire in Gaza, Israeli attacks continue and Palestinians are dying. At least six were killed on

Tuesday. Israel claims it's responding to imminent threats from Hamas.

It all comes amid a push by President Trump to advance his peace plan for Gaza. Donald Trump's son-in-law and envoy, Jared Kushner, held talks with

all the parties this week. On Sunday, he had a rare meeting with the head of Hamas' political bureau in the Egyptian coastal city of El Alamein.

Then, Monday, he met with the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Netanyahu told Kushner that Israel will not withdraw from Gaza before

complete disarmament by Hamas.

This question, the sequence of what happens and when, is the crux of the deadlock. The issue of withdrawal and disarmament were meant to be

happening in phases and in tandem. A senior leader of the Hamas political bureau, Basem Naim, was in the meeting with Kushner. And in an exclusive

interview, he tells me that Hamas is still committed to making Trump's peace plan work.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Basem Naim, welcome to the program.

BASEM NAIM, MEMBER, HAMAS POLITICAL BUREAU AND SENIOR HAMAS OFFICIAL: Please, you are most welcome.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you the status of President Trump's peace plan? Hamas said that it had agreed to the Board of Peace agreement. Prime Minister

Netanyahu of Israel has not. Jared Kushner, the president's special envoy, his son-in-law, had a long meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu in Israel

on Monday. You say, Hamas says, it's still committed to making this agreement work. Do you think it can still happen?

NAIM: Thank you very much for inviting me. At the end of July, after a very long and very hard negotiations with the mediators and with the Board

of Peace representative, Mr. Mladenov and his team, we agreed on the roadmap presented and offered to us from the Board of Peace itself. And we

have again repeated our acceptance of the roadmap and our full commitment to the agreed version of the roadmap and to the whole plan. How to achieve

calm and final ceasefire in Gaza Strip.

We heard the same commitment from the delegation that they are committed to the deal and they will try to get public acceptance from the Israeli side.

Unfortunately, we have in the second day when Mr. Kushner was in Tel Aviv and met Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, we didn't get a clear

acceptance. On the contrary, they have rejected the deal and practically on the ground, they have tried to escalate the situation and to spoil any

chance to go forward in the direction of settlement of this conflict in Gaza, calm and maybe on the long-term in the direction of peace.

[13:05:00]

As you heard in the last few days, nearly every day we have witnessed a massacre against our people as a practical response, a practical message

with fire against the deal. We believe still, we still committed to the deal. We are still looking forward that the mediators and the Board of

Peace headed by President Trump to make it happen.

We are still ready to continue this way to change or to give our people a chance on the ground to revive their life and to reach the minimum of calm,

stability and peace.

AMANPOUR: Let me just respond to what you said about attacks into Gaza. There have been no reported attacks of Hamas firing rockets since the

October 25 ceasefire, nothing into Israel. While Israeli strikes in Gaza have reportedly killed more than a thousand people. That's according to

authorities who are monitoring all of this on both sides.

What is the issue with the Board of Peace plan that you accepted that Prime Minister Netanyahu for the moment has rejected? He says it's about

disarmament. He says that he won't pull out of Gaza until Hamas disarmament was complete. And this is the quote, "It means heavy weaponry, lighter

weaponry, all weaponry. We are talking about real disarmament." What do you understand by what was in the plan?

NAIM: We were totally committed to the phase one plan. We have never violated the plan. On the contrary, we have done more than expected from

our side regarding implementing the plan. On the other side, as you have mentioned, now we are talking about more than 1,500 Palestinians have been

killed since October last year and around 100 since announcement of accepting the 20 -- the 15 points roadmap. On the other side, when it comes

to the humanitarian protocol, to all the needs of Gaza, nothing of this was implemented.

At the end of the day, we are talking about people, Palestinians in Gaza and also in the West Bank who are under occupation, who are looking for

getting rid of the occupation, who are looking for their political horizon. At the end of the tunnel, we can see a glimmer of hope, Palestinian State

and independence, a dignified life.

Therefore, in order to achieve this according to the 15-roadmap plan, which is including clear paragraphs about personal, individual weapons and other

kinds of weapons and decommissioning and the tunnels and workplaces and all these points, it has been clearly written in the plan how to do it.

It is not my duty as a Palestinian to take care about the sensitivity of the timing of the deal that Netanyahu, because we have heard this from Mr.

Kushner and the other members of the delegation, that you have to keep in mind that Netanyahu is now passing through a very delicate time. I must not

-- I am not in the position as a Palestinian to pay the price from the bodies and blood and the life of our people in order to secure the success

or the victory of Netanyahu's election. This is not my duty.

Again, the plan is talking in clear words about everything, including the decommissioning of weapons and Hamas is committed to all what has been

signed.

AMANPOUR: OK. So, let me just read you, because you were in the meeting that Jared Kushner, the special envoy, had with you all in Cairo with

Hamas. So, this is what he told Fox News after that. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JARED KUSHNER, DONALD TRUMP'S SON-IN-LAW: For Israel, we think this is a win-win situation, because if Hamas actually gives over the weapons and the

tunnels, you know, willingly over the next 60 to 90 days, that obviously would be the elimination of a huge security threat for Israel. Almost an

unthinkable achievement.

And if they don't follow through now on their commitment, everyone will see that they're not genuine about peace. And then Israel will have a lot more

support from the U.S. and others to go and finish the job in the appropriate way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You met with Hamas officials yesterday. Do you think they're genuine about peace?

KUSHNER: I mean, they said all the right things, but obviously it's very, very hard to trust, you know, a terrorist organization that that committed

these terrible atrocities. But we had a very cordial meeting and they said all the right things. And so, we're going to give them a chance to perform,

but it's going to have to be based on actions and steps. And I hope it will be true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:10:00]

AMANPOUR: Can you tell me what you say to Mr. Kushner and what would constitute decommissioning to you, Hamas?

NAIM: Look, Christiane, first of all, I don't find it very easy. Appropriate to negotiate through the media with Mr. Kushner or anyone else.

Second, I am not in the position here as a Palestinian to defend or to explain why Mr. Kushner said this in contradiction to all what he said in

the in the in the confidential meeting. Maybe he wants to satisfy Netanyahu on his arrogance and his success, his chances to success in the in the

coming elections.

But at the end of the day, we have a clear document of a roadmap which has offered to us from the BOP, from Mr. Mladenov and the mediators. After the

good negotiations, we have reached this. We are fully committed to this again and again. Therefore, it is not about what is written and what is

said in the media. It is about a vision, how to achieve the final stage of fixing this conflict. Giving the Palestinian a chance to survive and a bit

of a glimmer of hope to have a better, dignified life and to move forward into a political track to guarantee the Palestinian and independent

Palestinian State and self-sovereignty after rebuilding of Gaza.

This is what has been written in the deal. This is not my vision. This is what has been written, what Mr. Kushner has accepted in clear words in the

meeting. And he said it. Hamas has said all the right things in the meeting. OK. Let us go to the field and test the water and examine how much

Hamas is committed to the deal.

AMANPOUR: What I want to ask you, though, now, and I hope you'll be frank with me, is that increasing Palestinians who are writing about this, even

some, you know, Hamas people of the past, they are beginning to admit something that maybe they should have admitted a while ago. And that is you

actually need this process because there has not been any success militarily by Hamas to end the occupation, to get a Palestinian State, to

protect the rights and the safety of the Palestinian people.

Do you agree that after all these decades, just like the IRA, just like the PKK in Turkey, that you have to go into a political track because

militarily you have not succeeded?

NAIM: I'm sorry to say, Christiane, that, OK, if you -- if this is your judgment, that Hamas has failed to achieve an independent Palestinian

State. But let us go 30 years ago. Palestinians represented by the PLO, which is the sole and legitimate representative of Palestine, of all

Palestinians, including members of Hamas who are de facto members of this organization, they have given the Israelis a great chance to go for a

political, peaceful solution.

Who has undermined and spoiled this chance? It is the Israelis. First, by rejecting, and this has been said many times by Netanyahu and his

government, by rejecting this track to the two-step solution. And second, by assassinating and killing the man who has signed the agreement with the

Palestinians in 1993.

Second, yes, after the last two or three years, maybe we have failed to achieve this. But all what has been committed in Gaza after October 7th, it

is a full conscious decision to commit a genocide or to commit a crime against humanity, regardless of the military action. Therefore, if we have

a political chance to a political solution, Hamas is ready. And we have said it many times.

At the moment, we have a serious chance to have a Palestinian State. Hamas will be converted at that time into a political party. We will give up

political resistance. Our weapons will be handed over to the Palestinian State. Our armed fighters will be members or part of the Palestinian

National Army or Guard.

[13:15:00]

But this is at the end of the process. Therefore, I agree with you. This political conflict, the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis,

it is not an armed conflict. It is a political conflict. It has to be solved politically. But it has to guarantee the political rights of

Palestinians to have an independent, self-sovereign state.

And Hamas, in its political document in 2017, has clearly stated that Hamas can accept a state on 67 borders with Jerusalem as a capital and

guaranteeing the right of Palestinian refugees, the right of return to Palestinian refugees. Who has used this chance to build on this a political

solution? No one, including neither the Israelis nor the International Community.

We are looking for a political solution. But as long as we don't achieve it, we have always the right, as people under occupation, to resist this

occupation by all means, including armed resistance. Like any people around the world, it is not exclusive for Palestinians. And all the conflicts,

armed conflicts, have been solved at the end in Ireland, in other areas, by a political solution at the end.

AMANPOUR: What I want to ask you is this. All these years, several years since the massacre and the killing of civilians, as well as military, in

Israel on October 7th, Yahya Sinwar, the head of Hamas, had studied Israel and Hebrew for years. He studied in prison. He knew exactly what was going

on.

Do you really believe that he did not anticipate what would be the Israeli reaction to the murder of their civilians in an invasion like the one Hamas

did into Israel on October 7th? Do you believe now that that was a miscalculation on his part, given what's happened?

NAIM: I think these are two different points. I am not, I was not, and I'm not part of that decision to launch the operation on October 7th. I was a

member of the political bureau, but I was not of the decision to do it. But if he expected or not, this is an issue. Maybe he was expecting such a

response. I don't know.

But on the other side, who can claim that the response of Israel is automatically a response to the operation on October 7th? Yes, I agree that

there could be, or there should be, or it is expected that there will be a military response against, as we have seen in 2008, 2012, 2014, 2021, and

so on. But what happened after that, which is clearly described by big international legal bodies like ICC and ICG, it has nothing to do with the

military response.

It is a full conscious decision of the Israeli government. The ICG is not - - didn't hear the Hamas and aware about October 7th. But despite of this, they have described what happened in Gaza have all the indications of a

genocide. Therefore, this is a full, totally separated entity from what happened on October 7th regardless how people judge it.

AMANPOUR: You might think it's separated, Mr. Naim, but this happened and then that happened. This is a fact. 70,000 plus Palestinians were killed

after 1,200 Israelis were massacred and hundreds were taken hostage and many of them were killed. So, this is a fact.

What I want to ask you is, as you are now -- were you surprised then? Are you telling me you're surprised by the reaction?

NAIM: No. Again, I'm not surprised because I am aware about the nature and the core project of the Israelis. It is already an adopted plan by the

Israelis to end the Palestinian existence within this sphere, between the river and the sea. This is what they are doing in Gaza, in the West Bank,

in Jerusalem.

OK. Again, maybe he has expected a harsh response or not. This is not my duty to answer it because I don't know. But again, we should not again and

again to blame the victims. For example, in Gaza, I was the minister of health for years and I was part of the leadership for the last 20 years. We

have tried through the U.N., through the mediators and through the Great March of Retaliation, a very peaceful public demonstration near the fence

to get rid of the siege against Gaza, to end the blockade, to get rid of all this -- what we call it, Israel has converted Gaza Strip into an animal

farm, into a new concentration camp.

[13:20:00]

All these peaceful steps have led to the same result. Israeli crimes, unfortunately, supported by the International Community, especially in the

West. The Israelis and the International Community, in particular the West, they have squeezed the people into the corner. And therefore, all what's

happened after that is an expected response to the negligence of the International Community to this conflict and the complicity of the

International Community, in particular the Israelis.

AMANPOUR: Now, the United States, President Trump, is trying to end this and trying to do a peace plan that you say that you have bought into. Right

now, Benjamin Netanyahu has a population who are still angry, who are still traumatized, who are still wounded, and who support quite a lot of war as a

way to make them feel secure.

I want to ask you one thing about the people who were chosen or the people who were killed by Hamas. Vivian Silver, just one of the civilians who were

killed on October 7th, 74 years old, a Canadian-Israeli. She had her kibbutz invaded. She was a peace activist by some name. She was focused on

improving the rights of Palestinians, and she reportedly even drove Palestinians to Israeli hospitals for their medical treatment.

I want to know, do you regret the killings of Vivian Silver and people exactly like her who were devoted to also living side by side in peace with

their Palestinian neighbors with all their rights?

NAIM: Look, I'm sorry to say, but this is a little bit -- you cannot simplify it like this because I am sure --

AMANPOUR: It's really a simple human question. Basem Naim, it's a last question and it's a human question.

NAIM: I will answer it. First of all, our conflict with Israel is not a conflict neither with Jews, neither with Judaism, neither with anyone who

is looking for a peaceful coexistence. But at the end, if a people of two million people who are squeezed into a piece of land like Gaza Strip for

years and years, and they have tried by all peaceful means to get rid of the siege, not the occupation, and Gaza, by the way, was besieged by all

these kibbutzes. It was controlled by all these kibbutzes around Gaza.

This is not my responsibility to stand inside these areas, which is totally controlled by the army, including the food and the milk of my child. If

someone is really serious about peace, which is my goal also, he has to stand up and to fight for peace and not to be or to use as a slogan within

the military complex.

AMANPOUR: Vivian Silver was devoted to peace. With all of this that we've been talking about and the difficulties, do you believe this peace process

will advance?

NAIM: If there is a will, it will happen. It depends on President Trump himself, who we thank him many times for his plan and his will. If there is

a will on the American side, first, and the International Community in general who adopted President Trump's plan in the U.N. Security Council

2803, if there is a will, yes, it can proceed forward. We are still committed.

We want to facilitate, to cooperate the whole plan, but it depends on how much they can oblige or pressure Israel to accept the plan, regardless of

their internal conflicts. And we should not, again, pay the price for his success in the elections from the lives of my beloved people in Gaza, but

we are committed and we believe there is a good chance and it can happen.

AMANPOUR: Basem Naim, thank you very much for joining us.

NAIM: Please, thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So, that is the very latest from Hamas over one of the most important issues in the world that needs to be solved. Later in the

program, Richard Haass knows the arduous path to negotiating peace very well. The veteran U.S. diplomat served as Special Envoy for Northern

Ireland, and he will join us live after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:00]

AMANPOUR: How is it that seemingly intractable conflicts are resolved? A 2008 study by the RAND Corporation found that only a small minority of

terrorist groups, 7 percent, were defeated militarily, while 43 percent disbanded by joining a political process. We see glimmers of that now in

Turkey, where a new law opens the door to ending the long-running insurgency by the PKK, the Kurdish militant group. And in Northern Ireland,

the Good Friday Agreement paved the way for a peace that has lasted almost three decades.

My next guest, Richard Haass, played a critical role in implementing that agreement as America's special envoy for Northern Ireland. As such, he

knows firsthand the hard work it takes to bring lasting peace and he's joining me now from New York. Welcome back to the program, Richard Haass.

RICHARD HAASS, FORMER DIRECTOR OF POLICY PLANNING, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT: Good to be with you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Now, we need a veteran and a serious diplomat who knows all about the legwork and the devotion to the nitty-gritty that these kinds of

things take. So, first and foremost, because of the interview we just had and because it's really front and center of President Trump's efforts as

well, what did you make of Hamas essentially doing the obvious, blaming Israel for the current hiccups, but also saying they remain committed to

the 15-point border peace plan?

HAASS: At the risk of being negative, I didn't make a whole lot of it. Of course, they're going to remain committed. That way, they don't have to be

held responsible for a lack of forward progress. But I didn't hear much in the way of flexibility there.

Also, I was really disappointed in his non-answer, Mr. Naim's non-answer to your last question on the human side of this. I'm sorry to say I was

reminded of Abba Eban's old quip that, you know, Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. There was an opportunity to reach out,

to speak out, say, to a larger public, and he failed totally to do it. I'm not putting the blame only on that side. We can talk just as critically

about the Israelis.

Let me make a larger point, Christiane. These negotiations only work when you have leadership on both sides that's willing and able to make important

compromises for a settlement. Willing and able are the two things. I would say, you know, probably both sides are able. Hamas, if it wanted to, could

change tomorrow. Bibi Netanyahu's government, Israel, has the political strength maybe to make a deal or could form a new coalition.

[13:30:00]

I just don't see willingness on either side. So, in the absence of willingness, no amount of hard work by mediators tends to succeed.

AMANPOUR: OK. So, let's drill down on that part then. President Trump is known, he has a reputation that precedes him, as somebody who has this

idea, has the plan, and insists that it is implemented. And he puts his closest advisors and people closest to him on the job, i.e., Jared Kushner,

Steve Witkoff, et cetera.

And they did go and have this meeting with Hamas, which you heard what Jared Kushner said, he said it was cordial, they said all the right things.

Then they went over to Israel, but only after Israel and Netanyahu had basically in a public speech rejected it out of hand. So, I know you say

both sides have to, but how much also can and must an honest broker like the United States actually deliver?

HAASS: So, again, at the risk of saying uncomfortable things, my own view is people exaggerate the role of mediators or honest brokers. What really

matters is, again, the willingness and ability of the parties that are central to the dispute, their openness to making compromises. I often

thought that mediators could provide the last few percent of a deal, but they couldn't provide the lion's share of the raw material. And I think

we've got a real problem here.

Take Northern Ireland, by the way, which is a success story. I think there's an important lesson there, Christiane. Why did the British

ultimately succeed working with the Irish government? Well, on one hand, they shut down the terrorism. They basically made clear that no amount of

violence was going to succeed. The provisional IRA was never going to shoot its way to power.

But, and you got at it in your introduction, they opened up a political path. They basically said, if you're willing to put aside violence, there's

a political path, and you won't realize all of your ambitions, all of your objectives, but you'll realize some of them, and ultimately, however

reluctantly at first, the provisional IRA and others went through that door, and the Good Friday Agreement and subsequent agreements were the

result.

Well, if you return to Israel-Hamas in Gaza, Israel has never really opened up a political alternative. So, Hamas can continue to reject Israel,

promote violence, and so forth. And Hamas, for its part, has never given Israel any incentive to open up a political path.

So, again, I think, well, we haven't gone very far here, and the President, President Trump, has a pronounced tendency to over-promise and under-

deliver. He talks as though this were a done deal. This is not, we're not even close, we're not even close to that.

AMANPOUR: No, we're not close to that. You're absolutely right. But just on the issue of where both sides are, I put it to Basem Naim of Hamas that

they have not, in all the decades of military resistance to Israel, won their political aims or any military victories. And Israel, for all its

might, has also not, quote/unquote, "destroyed Hamas."

So, do you not think that, I know it's probably wishful thinking, that both sides have not, both sides have nowhere else to go? And Israel, on top of

everything else, is losing support from its major ally, which is the United States.

HAASS: You're being way too rational here. You're taking a step back. I mean, you're right. Both sides, if you will, are losing from the situation.

Israel's jeopardizing its most important relationship. It's isolating itself in the world. Its society's being really badly affected by this. Its

reserve call-offs are too common. People are spending too many of the hours of the day in shelters. And meanwhile, the plight of 2 million Palestinians

in Gaza is beyond miserable. Hamas has delivered absolutely nothing except increased misery. Plus, they've lost control of an ever-increasing share of

Gaza. So, neither has anything to show for it.

On the other hand, this is Hamas' DNA. And again, I think we're stuck with it until the Israelis show there's an alternative path and hopefully some

Palestinians would begin to move in that direction. And maybe there'll be some internal pressures in Israeli society pushing for that. But at the

moment, I don't see it.

[13:35:00]

Israel's on sort of a rightward drift. The effects of October 7th or (INAUDIBLE) are profound. The demographic changes in Israel have added to

that.

So, again, I don't see this as poised on the brink of breakthrough, even though your logical analysis is right. Both sides are losing from the

status quo and stand to lose more if the status quo continues into the future.

AMANPOUR: So, OK, let's drill down on the idea of disarmament or decommissioning, which is a whole interesting semantic and real issue. So,

first I'm going to play what Benjamin Netanyahu said in Hebrew to Israeli television about this issue, much more pointed than anything he said in

English to the Western press. This is what he said about the issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Israel rejects the 15-point plan. I heard that there were those who said, you

didn't say it, but we did say it. And here I am saying it again. Israel rejects the 15-point plan. The IDF will not carry out any withdrawal until

the dismantling of Hamas and its weapons. And when I say dismantling Hamas and its weapons, that means heavy weaponry, less heavy weaponry, and

smaller arms, all weaponry. We're talking about a true dismantling, not a fictitious dismantling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So, Richard Haass, you know all about dismantling and decommissioning. You had a lot to do with that. Let's not forget that the

1998 Good Friday Peace Accord in Northern Ireland led to dismantling of the military and the weaponry, but it took many, many years, and it was more

than a decade until the whole thing was accomplished.

And on top of everything else, and I want you to explain this, Benjamin Netanyahu's right, there have to be -- there has to be these weapons put

out of commission. But isn't there a thing in sort of this kind of work where no militant that's brought into a process is going to surrender to

the enemy, not going to hand over their weapons for some kind of ritual, you know, burning? Decommissioning is something different, right? Can you

explain that?

HAASS: Decommissioning is essentially a fancy word for disarming. And the problem with it, even though it's an important step, is you can never prove

it. Just say tomorrow, Christiane, Hamas produced 1,000 AK-47s or this many grenade launchers and all that, and they said, we've now disarmed. We've

dismantled. There'd be no way of verifying that. You can't look under every roof. You can't look into every basement.

So, decommissioning becomes something of an act of confidence. So, I think for any Israeli government to believe that Hamas had actually given up all

of its weaponry would really require that Hamas changed its spots by essentially starting articulating different positions. So, they essentially

had given up the idea of rejecting Israel and supporting an open-ended armed struggle.

Otherwise, decommissioning or disarming is a kind of mechanical step, and you never know if any weapons are handed over, whether they represent 10

percent or 50 percent or 90 percent of what a side has. That's why I think, in some ways, maintenance of ceasefires is more important because at least

you can measure that.

But again, if decommissioning or dismantling, as the prime minister calls it, which is something more, if that's a prerequisite, then we're never

going to get there. That's simply a box that's not going to be checked, in part because you can't check it. You can never satisfy yourself that, in

fact, what is stated to have occurred has actually occurred.

AMANPOUR: But it is written in the plan how it should happen, and it's not like handing them over. It's doing it under. Remember the old Reagan-Maxim

trust but verify. So, it's under a third party. It's all sort of monitored. And why do you think it can't work in the Middle East when it did work in

Northern Ireland?

I mean, there were a couple of bombings. I remember Omar a few months right after the Good Friday. But the politicians held their nerve and the process

continued until now. As you say, it's a solid process. There hasn't been this kind of military activity at all for 30-odd years.

HAASS: Well, in Northern Ireland, you had the emergence of leadership that had essentially decided that continued violence was a dead end. The

populations in which they moved essentially had come to the same conclusion.

[13:40:00]

And yes, decommissioning took place, but, and third parties verified it, but third parties were at the mercy of the information that was given to

them by the various paramilitaries. Third party inspectors don't have their own satellites, don't have their own ability, their own spies to know where

there might be hidden catches of weapons. It's in some ways a cooperative, good faith process.

And I would simply say Northern Ireland had moved to a point where it was ready to enter there and you had leadership on all sides, on the Protestant

side, as well as the Catholic side or Unionist and Republican, if you prefer, that was ready to make those steps. I simply don't see it in the

Middle East.

So, it's not a question of whether some group could go in and verify. I simply don't think at the moment you have the prerequisites for successful

diplomacy, which is by the way, why I never would have recommended that decommissioning take such a central role in this political process. I would

have warned Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff not to go down that path.

AMANPOUR: And yet, the -- you know, the old supporters of Hamas, let's say Iran, and the whole sort of ring of steel around Israel, Hezbollah, Syria,

you know, Hamas now, Iran, has been significantly weakened. So, their support is significantly less. So, this brings me to Iran. Now, these are

obviously a state actor.

What, in your view, is going wrong or right with the American war on Iran? Do you think it's going to produce the result that Trump and Netanyahu

want?

HAASS: I think there's almost no way it produces the result. If one result is to get Iran out of the nuclear weapons business, we haven't even started

those negotiations. The question is whether we can establish a verifiable ceiling on Iranian nuclear related activities. That is something we and the

Israelis can tolerate. I have no idea if that's possible. The Strait of Hormuz, which wasn't even a war objective, remains partially or largely

closed. The question is, can you get it reopened? And if so, under what terms?

And as you know, the MOU that was negotiated between the United States and Iran, what, some two and a half months ago, never included anything to do

with Iran's non-nuclear conventional military capabilities or its supported proxy groups. But instead, it was still very generous for what it was

offering Iran up front.

So, I thought the MOU was a deeply flawed document. But that said, I still -- I don't see it moving forward because of the large gap between Iran and

the United States. And most important, I don't think, there's no consensus, if you will, on moving forward. I think Iran continues to believe if they

hang tough, they can get a better deal and we're not prepared to compromise. So, at the moment, I think we're going nowhere slowly.

AMANPOUR: So, President Trump has moved to economic D-Day, he calls it, away from military escalation and towards a much more severe economic

strangulation of Iran. At the same time, it appears he's turning his gaze back to North Korea. But I've said it a million times on this program and

we've been told that his three meetings with Kim Jong-un in 1.0, actually he walked away with them being, accelerating their nuclear program.

What do you think Trump could achieve and how do you read his desire to meet with Kim Jong-un again?

HAASS: Let's take both. In terms of North Korea, I think there's zero chance that North Korea would give up its nuclear weapons and missiles to

any American president. It's too tied to its standing and to its security. Plus, by the way, the Iran war probably left Kim Jong-un shaking his head,

see, that's why I need nuclear weapons. The United States invaded Iran who doesn't have nuclear weapons, I'm going to keep mine.

So, if we define success as persuading North Korea to rid itself of nuclear weapons, we're simply setting ourselves up for failure. I think the

economic pressure we're applying on Iran is fine. I wish we had done it before the war rather than going to war, but coercion leaves Iran in the

position of deciding whether it can take the pain or not compared to what, plus countries like China are going to continue to help Iran. You're not

going to be able to totally cut Iran off.

So, economic pressure is a very slow, slow process. So, I doubt it's going to deliver the dramatic results we want on the timeline that we want.

[13:45:00]

AMANPOUR: We have very little time left. And I just want to ask you about some of the extreme comments coming from Netanyahu's coalition partners,

for instance, Ben-Gvir, who said, our rehabilitation is their destruction, talking about the Palestinians, basically talking about how he thinks there

should be 30 to 40 Palestinians taken down every night, not just those who endanger us in this specific moment. There are people there who are not

worthy of life. They shouldn't live.

Given that he says that, and he's part of the government, is there any chance in 30 seconds?

HAASS: Not if people like him are part of the government and have a veto what the government could do. But this is tragic. This -- you know, you and

I grew up with such a different Israel and the idea that a person of those views could be in government and hold the government hostage, that's

exactly why Israel, in some ways, is hemorrhaging political support in the United States and elsewhere. And one just hopes and prays the next Israeli

government will have a very different composition for its sake and indeed for the region's sake.

AMANPOUR: Well, Richard Haass, we thank you for your wisdom and your experience. Thanks for being with us. And stay with CNN because we'll be

right back after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back. You may remember a powerful bombing that stunned Monaco in late June. It was an assassination attempt against a Ukrainian

millionaire. He was targeted by a woman also from Ukraine. The details remain murky. So, CNN's Matthew Chance went to the tiny Mediterranean tax

haven to find out more, and here's his exclusive report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a super glamorous playground for the super-rich. One of the world's tiniest

nations, Monaco promotes itself as a haven of wealth and tranquility on the picturesque shores of the Mediterranean.

But one evening in June, as a Ukrainian-born businessman walked home with his family, that carefully manicured image of security and calm was

shattered, plunging the principality into violence and chaos.

[13:50:00]

CHANCE: Well, this is the exact place where the explosion took place. You can still see the impact of the shrapnel, the stucco plaster work here

around the door has all fallen off. And, you know, if I lift up the tarp here, you can see the marble steps and the brickwork is all shattered.

We've also made contact with the target of the attack, and despite his grave injuries, he's agreed to speak out.

VADYM YERMOLAIEV, BUSINESSMAN (through translator): When the explosion went off, I saw my partner Anna lying on the steps with badly injured legs.

My son was waving his bloodied arms, and I had burns across my whole body and was missing pieces of flesh. I'm not a confrontational person. I've

always tried to avoid any sharp conflicts, so I don't understand the reason why this happened.

CHANCE: There's a suggestion in Ukraine, and there are reports in Ukraine that this assassination attempt was linked to your involvement, alleged

involvement in organized crime. How do you answer that?

YERMOLAIEV (through translator): I personally have never in my life had anything to do with that. The Monaco police also asked me if my family

could be involved, which was almost funny, as everything I own is already registered to my wife and children.

CHANCE (voice-over): But clearly, someone wanted to send a message. This is the face of the bomber, a 39-year-old single mother from Ukraine,

Anastasiia Berezovska. She even recorded herself planting the device, in what investigators say was part of a complex international plot. They're

still trying to unravel.

CHANCE: Well, these narrow, twisting streets snaking through tiny Monaco are some of the most heavily surveilled anywhere in the world. There are

more than 1,400 surveillance cameras, basically watching everything anybody does, and a police officer for every 60 residents of the principality. The

bombing appears to have been carefully planned to bypass all of that tight security.

CHANCE (voice-over): And Monaco's police department is now under intense pressure to understand what went wrong. Multiple theories are being

explored. The police chief admitted, though he refused to elaborate or discuss the glaring connections with Ukraine and its security services.

Within a Kyiv court those connections have become impossible to ignore. Two men, a serving officer with Ukrainian military intelligence and a former

security agent, now stand accused of executing Anastasiia Berezovska and burying the Monaco bomber in a shallow grave after she fled home.

For the Ukrainian authorities fighting a bitter war with Russia, it's a potentially embarrassing link that risks straining relations with its

European backers. Ukrainian military intelligence say the suspects are just criminals. But fueling speculation, Vadym Yermolaiev is sanctioned by

Ukraine for doing business with its Russian enemies, though he's ruling out any link to his bombing.

YERMOLAIEV (through translator): I can't imagine it had anything to do with the Ukrainian sanctions against me, because that would mean our state

is potentially engaged in extrajudicial executions, and I just can't believe that.

CHANCE: After the bombing, you accuse the Ukrainian security services of being behind it. Is that still your view?

YERMOLAIEV (through translator): That's not just my view; all the facts point to it. But I think this was a contracted hit. Someone privately hired

military intelligence specialists who know how to do this, and they took it on for money.

CHANCE (voice-over): In both Monaco and Kyiv, investigations are now in full swing to uncover the facts, including the possible role of Ukrainian

guns for hire or rogue agents, making one of the world's most glamorous enclaves feel a lot less secure.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Monaco.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[13:55:00]

AMANPOUR: And finally, in tomorrow's program, we're revisiting a great conversation with Paul Simon to mark 40 years of his masterpiece,

"Graceland." Ladysmith, Black Mambazo, the South African male choir, performed on that album and toured the world with Paul Simon and

revolutionized a cappella music along the way. So, ahead of our Simon interview, here's the music they shared with us back in 2015.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And we all need amazing grace. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from London.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:00]

END