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Amanpour
Interview with European Commissioner for Enlargement Marta Kos; Interview with The Guardian Senior International Correspondent Julian Borger; Interview with Governor Spencer Cox (R-UT); Interview with "Come From Away" Creator David Hein; Interview with "Come From Away" Creator Irene Sankoff. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 08, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Images shocking the world. The butcher of Bosnia honored in Serbia. The E.U.'s enlargement commissioner Marta Kos joins me after she canceled her
visit to Serbia in protest. And we look at the impact of Ratko Mladic's harrowing crimes with journalist Julian Borger.
Next --
GOV. SPENCER COX (R-UT): The arguing is fine. We shouldn't compromise our principles, but we also should be building coalitions the way that the
founders intended to be able to solve our biggest problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: -- "How to be a Peacemaker in the Age of Contempt." Utah's Republican governor Spencer Cox gives us his off ramp from the deep
polarization facing America.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID HEIN, CREATOR, "COME FROM AWAY": I think it's a testament though to this story. I mean right now it's a story about people coming together
despite their differences about, you know, in response to a tragedy, responding with kindness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: As we prepare to commemorate 9/11 the enduring musical that honored the humanity amongst the darkness in a small town in Canada.
Looking back at Chris John's conversation with the writing duo behind "Come From Away."
And a very warm welcome to the program everyone. I'm Paula Newton in New York sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
The funeral of war criminal Ratko Mladic has shocked European officials and cast doubt over Serbia's bid for E.U. membership. Thousands of mourners
gathered to honor the butcher of Bosnia as the former Serb commander was buried with military honors. President Aleksandar Vucic did not attend the
funeral. However, his son, Danilo, was there joined by senior Serbian officials.
Now, Mladic died at '84 in The Hague where he was serving a life sentence for his role in the 1995 massacre of more than 8,000 Muslim men and boys in
Srebrenica and in the siege of Sarajevo. E.U. President Ursula von der Leyen called images from the funeral shocking.
And my next guest E.U. enlargement chief Marta Kos cancelled a planned visit to Serbia in protest saying, the glorification surrounding Mladic's
death is incapable -- pardon me, incompatible with the values on which the E.U. path is built. And she joins us now from Brussels. Marta Kos, a very
warm welcome to the program, appreciate it.
MARTA KOS, EUROPEAN COMMISSIONER FOR ENLARGEMENT: Welcome to you too.
NEWTON: Now, we have to ask as we had seen the scenes from this funeral. What does it tell you about Serbia's willingness to engage with some of the
most shameful acts in Serbian history to really honor the memories of those victims that died and really put a new face on what happened a generation
later?
KOS: Indeed. You know, what has happened in Serbia is deeply disturbing. Ratko Mladic was a war criminal convicted of genocide and crimes against
humanity. So, he represents one of the darkest pages of Europe's recent history. And glorification, as you have said, surrounding his death and
signs of the official support, high senior officials being present and the funerals, this is what is unacceptable and it is not representing the
values E.U. is built on.
This is why I decided, as a politician but also as a person who grew up on the territory of ex-Yugoslavia, I can't go to Belgrade. Can you imagine how
I would ever be able to look into the eyes of mothers of Srebrenica who have lost a lot of members of their families.
I met them many times. We have been discussing -- I learned a lot from them. So, they have suffered the most, but they are a symbol of the
reconciliation.
[13:05:00]
They were telling me, you know, we will never forget, but we can forgive. So, we should all work together. And this is what I also expect from Serbia
especially because it is a candidate country for the E.U. membership.
NEWTON: As you say, Ms. Kost, that was not exactly an act of contrition in terms of the way this funeral was conducted and you made very clear that
the values that underpin our future, you were talking about the E.U., are non-negotiable. So, I am wondering where this goes next. What does Serbia
have to do in order to write this and for you to reschedule a trip that you had planned there?
KOS: Serbia, they will have parliamentary and presidential elections in the autumn time. And we have to sit down and discuss how we will go on with
the European path of Serbia. The path to the European Union really requires coming to terms with the past. It requires genuine reconciliation but also
respect for the victims of war crimes. So, this is what I expect.
Then we also expect from Serbia clear and determined walking on the European path. If a country wants to become a member of the E.U., it's not,
you know, just aligning with our legislation, it is much more. It is about our values. It is about the strategic orientation. And of course, it is
also an important part of the reconciliation.
I told you I am coming from ex-Yugoslavia, I was born there, I grew up there. So, I lived there for 25 years in peace and I wouldn't believe that
something like war crimes committed in the wars on the territory of ex- Yugoslavia were possible. But this happens. So, we have to take care about the reconciliation and I think that it is also the responsibility of the
leadership also in Serbia to heal the wounds of the past but not again and again put salt on them so they can never heal.
This is a special responsibility of the leadership. And we have a very good example what happened in Europe after the Second World War. You know, just
five years after the Second World War ended in '45, France and Germany, big enemies from the First and Second World War started the reconciliation
process and they actually have paved the way that we have been able to establish a very important community -- European community to the European
Union.
NEWTON: So, much of what you are talking about depends on leadership. As you pointed out they have parliamentary elections next month. Some say that
Vucic could in fact become prime minister. So, I am wondering do you believe he is up to the job in terms of the commitment to democracy, but
also, you know, what you expect of Serbia in order to confront its past and be on that path to reconciliation?
KOS: The people of Serbia will decide at these elections who they want to represent -- whom they want to represent them. So, we will talk to every
government which will be the result of these elections, but we will never compromise on our values.
The accession process to become a member of the E.U. is very demanding. We are aware of this. So, we will want to have a clear determination also from
the new Serbian government to walk the European path. But words are not enough. You know, seeing something like we have seen now in the case of
Ratko Mladic is disturbing because Serbia should be central to the process of the reconciliation. It is really the opportunity we should not miss.
And I also know that there are many people in Serbia who want that. We have seen people who stood up for accountability, who stood up for pluralism of
media, who stood up for the rule of law. So, I still believe there is a place for Serbia in the European Union. But of course, Serbia will have to
do the way of the reforms and Serbia will have to reconcile with the past in the way that the reconciliation will be possible.
NEWTON: You know, even before what you call the shocking images, it was clear that perhaps Serbia's ties to Russia would also be problematic.
[13:10:00]
The Russian ambassador to Serbia was at the funeral. And we remember that Vucic refused to join in the sanctions against Russia. How problematic is
that relationship still? And does it give you pause in terms of considering again the issue of Serbia joining the E.U.?
KOS: This is a very important question. Because what we see today is that actually the world is restructuring. And we -- and there are countries who
would like to be partners to the European Union, not just in the sense of becoming a member, but also new partnerships.
So, when we speak about the future geopolitical or strategical orientation of Serbia, Serbia will have to choose if it's serious about becoming a
member of the E.U. or Russia or China are more important partners to them. I'm not speaking about it is black or white. But what we need in this also
situation, which is not easy for the European Union, we need partners which we can rely on. That we can rely on that when it is about our main
strategic orientation, we can work together.
So, alignment with our security and foreign policy will be very much important. We have member states, not just the European Commission, which I
represent, who really are looking very carefully what is happening in Serbia. Also, you know, where now Serbia is leaning to. So, it is about the
strategic orientation. It is about the European values.
NEWTON: Ms. Kos, finally, forgive me, we don't have a lot of time, but I do want to ask you this question. It has been many years since I've been to
Serbia, but I do remember the drive and the determination of the young people there to join the E.U. How significant do you believe is the
generational divide? I mean, what do you hear from them? And do you believe their current government is serving that new generation?
KOS: What we see in Serbia is that support for the European path has been falling in the last years. I wouldn't say that this is a generational gap.
What I see is really a very healthy core of pro-European forces, but sometimes, you know, they have difficulties to get enough media space. They
have difficulties because they have been accused of working against the interest of Serbia.
So, we all together, also from my side and the European Commission, we should help those democratic forces. I think that what is happening now in
the world around us, not just here in Europe, is a clear sign that, you know, the like-minded countries are working more and more together. And
this is what I would like also, you know, with my team, achieve with Serbia.
And, of course, working strongly not only with the young generation in Serbia, but with all the Serbian people who really believe in democracy,
who believe in the European path, and the values which are actually common not just to the European Union, but also to some other nations.
NEWTON: Marta Kos, grateful for the frank and candid conversation. Appreciate you joining us.
Now, Mladic was found guilty of genocide by an international court in 2017 for the crimes he committed after the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, as
you're hearing there. But many in Serbia still consider him a national hero. Those kinds of pictures attest to that. And it's the funeral that
sparked such a backlash in Europe.
Julian Borger reported for years from the Balkans and wrote about the long road to Mladic's arrest in his book, "The Butcher's Trail." He joins us now
from London. I want to thank you for joining us.
And I do want to get first your reaction to what we heard from Ms. Kos. As I said, it was a frank conversation. And clearly, being someone who grew up
in the former Yugoslavia, this has touched her deeply and perhaps a reflection of how people are feeling about the shocking scenes from this
funeral.
JULIAN BORGER, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, THE GUARDIAN: Yes. I mean, what we saw in Serbia has been absolutely chilling and really showed
that the pull of the European Union in terms of changing the underpinnings of Serbian politics has not really worked. The attraction, as many people
after the war ended, believed that all the constituent states of the former Yugoslavia would rush towards Europe and this would somehow solve the
problem.
[13:15:00]
Well, that hasn't happened, particularly in Serbia and in Bosnia. And really what's been happening with Mladic and Mladic's heroes' return to
Serbia has really shown that very vividly.
NEWTON: So, you believe it's uncovered something that has been obvious all along, that there are different forces at work in Serbia and this was
emblematic of what was already there?
BORGER: Yes. I mean, to see someone who was convicted of genocide being given this kind of welcome is really a reminder that the driving force
behind those mass atrocities that culminated in genocide in Bosnia is still very much alive and not just sort of in the back streets of Serbia, but
it's ingrained in Serbian institutions. The Serbian Orthodox Church was there, the Patriarch of the Church was there to oversee the ceremony. The
army was there, government ministers were there, also in the football teams. There was a match the other day between two Belgrade teams, and they
unfurled this enormous banner of Mladic's face that covered an entire stand in the stadium.
And what was really chilling about that was the words that accompanied it. It said, direction Potocari. Now, Potocari is not just where it's near
Srebrenica, but in particular is where some of the worst atrocities happened. So, it's very clear the sense and the kind of activistic nature
of these nationalist sentiments have been brought to the surface by the return of Mladic.
NEWTON: As you know well, Christiane went face-to-face with Mladic in 1993. For those who did not live through it, can you bring us back to those
times? And before we do that, let's hear Christiane's confrontation there with Ratko Mladic. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Your own people and your soldiers, to them you're a great man, you're a hero. To your enemies,
you're somebody to be feared and somebody to be hated. How do you feel about that?
RATKO MLADIC (through translator): Very interesting question. Both things you say are correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: I mean, it's breathtaking even to hear it now, so many years on. It is incongruent, right? It is difficult to really parse what we just
heard there with the funeral scenes, such an honor being bestowed on this man.
BORGER: Yes. I mean, it really brings across the character of the man. He always seemed to be boiling over with rage. And he was an ethnic
nationalist who hated other ethnicities. In a kind of pure form, he saw the Muslim Bosnians as Turks. And even -- he was once asked by an American
diplomat, if he'd ever been abroad, and he said, well, I went to Switzerland once, but didn't like the beer.
He was very much a small world nationalist, who even in prison wouldn't mingle with other ethnicities, unlike many of the convicted war criminals
there. He was in a way the embodiment of the purest form of this strain of nationalism that is still very much alive in the region.
NEWTON: Yes, incredibly defiant to the last. As you know well, Mladic was on the run for some 14 years, and your book focuses on that manhunt to try
and bring him to justice. I mean, what stands out as the most notable part of this time that he so successfully evaded justice?
BORGER: I think the most notable part of it was that for most of that time, he was sheltered by the Serbian army. Now, at the time of the Bosnian
war, Serbia, Belgrade, always denied that it was behind the war that was orchestrating Serbian forces and the ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. But as
soon as the war was over and Mladic needed protection, he went over to Serbia and the army stepped in, not only to protect him, but to look after
him. They had a whole unit that was dedicated to hiding him and looking after his every need.
[13:20:00]
And what happened in the last couple of days with the funeral was a reminder of that this -- he was really Serbia's man in Bosnia as much as
anything else.
NEWTON: Yes. An interesting reminder that you give us, especially when we bring it back to present day politics here. I mean Vucic did not attend the
funeral, his son did. But we have to remember that he championed Radko Milosevic in the past. Vucic served as the information minister under
Slobodan Milosevic and he's really trying to balance his nationalist base to this day, obviously for leverage.
So, where do you think this relationship goes now and what do you think Vucic's next move is? Because he clearly is using this kind of nationalism
to great extent for leverage in his political campaigns.
BORGER: Yes. And I think that nationalism is the most powerful tool -- political tool in Serbia. He will continue to use it. Obviously, his next
move is to -- you know, the calling of snap elections and to sort of move sideways from president to prime minister and locate political power in the
position of prime minister.
And really, his rule is all about the promotion propagation of his own control over politics. And to do that, he will nationalism, this is a
powerful tool, but he will also hold up the possibility that he could be heading towards the European Union by keeping the ball rolling, or however
stalled it is, keep alive that possibility, while at the same time having close relations with Russia, the traditional ally, and China, the new
power. And he will try and triangulate those forces in a way that is most likely to guarantee his hold on power.
NEWTON: Yes, it'll be interesting to see if that balancing act continues here. You heard Ms. Kos, who was -- especially given her background growing
up in the former Yugoslavia, was resolute about where the E.U. stands now. Julian Borger, we do have to leave it there. I want to thank you for
joining us.
BORGER: Thank you.
NEWTON: And stay with CNN. We'll have more news in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NEWTON: Now, with the U.S. midterms less than two months away, Democrats and Republicans are amping the rhetoric as they campaign in what will be
crucial elections, of course. And it comes at a time when President Trump's approval ratings are at their lowest, and the partisan rivalry feels
starker than ever.
Utah Governor Spencer Cox has been calling for an end to political polarization in America for several years now, and it's taken on an even
more resonance following the assassination of conservative activist Charlie Kirk last year. He joins Walter Isaacson to talk about the key to fostering
political harmony in America.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you. And, Governor Spencer Cox, welcome to the show.
GOV. SPENCER COX (R-UT): It's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
ISAACSON: You have this new book called "Off Ramp," and the subtitle is "How to Be a Peacemaker in an Age of Contempt." And when I was reading the
book, I was struck by the word contempt, because you infuse it with a lot of power. You say that's at the core of the problem. Explain that to me.
COX: Well, look, lots of experts have talked about what contempt is and what it isn't. But I like to think of you -- we think of hate as kind of
the worst thing that could be happening in our country.
[13:25:00]
And I think there's even a level beyond hate, because at least when we're arguing or disagreeing passionately with each other, we're having some sort
of interaction, contempt is, thinks that your opponent is beneath you, that they're not worth engaging in, that they're unworthy of our -- even our
disagreement.
You know, I talk about a famous psychologist who works with married couples and says that when he sees a couple like rolling their eyes at their
spouse, he knows that that marriage is in trouble. And there's a lot of that happening in our country today. And I think this marriage -- this
American marriage between Republicans and Democrats is not very healthy right now.
ISAACSON: Well, wait, wait, it's gone way beyond eye rolling. I mean, this is really hateful, spiteful contempt that people feel. What causes that
type of contempt?
COX: Well, there's so many things that we know is causing that. I truly believe that social media has become a cancer in our society today. The way
we look at each other, the conflict entrepreneurs that exist out there that make money off of dividing us. And it's -- we've gotten so polarized and
adopted the wrong tribes.
I've researched a lot about what's happening with community. And we used to have very strong communities in this country going all the way back to the
-- to Alexis de Tocqueville in the 1830s. And we don't have that anymore. We're lonelier than at any time in American history. We have fewer true
friends.
So, we're desperately seeking that type of belonging, and we're finding it more often in politics than in religion or volunteer organizations or
rotary clubs. And politics is an unhealthy tribe. And so, if somebody's not a part of our tribe, then we -- again, we tear them down. We look down on
them. We think they don't have anything to offer. And that's a pretty dangerous formula for our country.
ISAACSON: I know that Jonathan Haidt has been part of this book. And I know that his philosophy is -- you know, you've embraced it and you've
tried to get off of social media. Tell me what you're doing and how problematic you think social media is.
COX: Yes. So, look, we -- Utah was the first state in the nation to really take on the social media companies. We let out -- of course, there's a big
settlement recently with Meta because of some of that work as other states have come along. I appreciate Jonathan Haidt who wrote the forward to the
book and the great work that he's doing there.
I personally -- I have to admit, I was addicted to Twitter, to X spending way too much time on social media. December of last year, I made a really
important decision that I needed to get off and that I needed to unplug a little more. And it was truly remarkable what happened. So, much of the
anger that I felt every day left, I had more time to focus, actually more time to write this book. That was part of it to be able to actually sit
down and engage, to think deeply.
But more important than that, more time to spend with my family. I was present more than -- when we were together at family meals or get
togethers. And ultimately, I believe that that's what our country needs. The divisiveness that we're seeing out there is being driven in large part
by these algorithms that are designed to really attack our brains, to overtake our, our agency and to drive us to -- what, to hate one another.
And they've gotten really good at it. And it's -- I don't pretend that a governor or president is going to fix this. It's going to take all of us
taking a step back and starting to care more about our neighbors than we do about winning an online argument.
ISAACSON: You know, this week is the first anniversary of the killing of Charlie Kirk. And that's when you became a big national figure because you
express this -- the sorrow and the how gruesomeness was, but also tried to heal, tried to make sure people came together, tried in some ways you
called for peacemaking. In this book, you talk about how people reacted against that and you found it exasperating. Explain what happened.
COX: Well, let me just say again, this was a terrible tragedy that happened in my state. the highest profile political assassination in, you
know, 50 years. And it happened here and we were devastated by that. And of course, you know, my first thought is with, with Erika and the kids, his
parents, his family, just a terrible, terrible tragedy.
And by and large, the response was the appropriate response that this is unacceptable. This is awful. I heard from democratic leaders all across the
country who reached out to express their sympathy and their regret at what had happened and how terrible this is.
[13:30:00]
But then I opened social media and I saw, and again, these are a minority, but a growing, sadly, minority in our country. Some of whom not only were
they not sad, but some of whom were celebrating the tragedy. And then some who were mad at me for trying to lower the temperature and mad at others
who were trying to lower the temperature.
And so, that's -- I had already started writing this book, but that really helped to push me to finish it because I -- we just have to find a way to
make sure this never happens again. We can't solve our debates by shooting each other. We have to get back to constitutional principles of debate
disagreement passionate arguing is fine. We shouldn't compromise our principles, but we also should be building coalitions the way that the
founders intended to be able to solve our biggest problems.
ISAACSON: You haven't been the strongest supporter of President Trump even as a Republican governor, but after he was shot, you decided to endorse him
and you kind of asked him a favor and you said, OK, I want to endorse you, but here's what I would like. Explain what that favor was and maybe how
disappointed you were when it didn't seem like it came to fruition.
COX: Well, look, the president and I have had a long history. I did not support him. I hadn't voted for him. And at that point when he -- when
there was an attempted assassination his life, I just felt this overwhelming need that I needed to be a peacemaker and that I needed to
repair that relationship with him and figure out a way to work together knowing that we would likely have an opportunity to work together over the
next four years. And so, that's exactly what I did.
So, I wrote him a letter, reaching out to him, asking him if he would consider taking on this role. I felt he had a really unique opportunity in
the wake of that attempted assassination his life to help unify the country and bring us together.
Now, if he were here with you, he would tell you -- in fact, he said this after the death of Charlie Kirk, he said, you know, Charlie said we should
forgive our enemies, but I can't do that. I hate my enemies. That was kind of his approach. He has a very different approach. He decided that that was
not the direction that he wanted to go. And yet, we've been able to work very closely together on important issues.
And I have to say, after the -- after Charlie's death, I mean, he reached out to me and we talked about this a lot. We talked about the people that
wanted him dead, his concerns about, about the future. And he was supportive of me throughout that process and the decisions that we were
making to help to lower the temperature a bit.
So, while we see the world differently on this issue, that's the whole point of the book is, can we have a relationship, and really focus -- you
know, as much as the national problems concern me, this -- I've been thinking about and writing about how to focus on our individual
relationships within our families, within our neighborhoods, within our friend zone. Too many people have lost friends and family members to
politics. And we have to get back -- we have to win them back.
And, and there are more important things than just politics. And I've had to practice that with both president Trump and president Biden, figuring
out how to work closely with people I disagree with.
ISAACSON: But you say that polarization is the defining issue of our time. And it's really the biggest danger. And you've just said that president
Trump fundamentally disagrees with you. He says of his enemies, I can't try to work with them. I have contempt, you know, to use your word hatred for
them. Is that part of the problem in that people support him with that, his view of the world that way?
COX: So, look, I -- people are much more complicated than any one decision. And certainly, that's true of my family and friends. I believe
that's true of me also. Yes. Look, I think that political leaders should do better. That's one of the reasons that I took on this project, working with
the national governor's association. I wish every governor and every president and every mayor and every member of Congress would help to lower
the temperature.
By the way, I'm not great at this. I mean, I -- the incentives right now in our country are towards contempt and hate and anger. You -- the algorithms,
right? You get more play on social media. You get more play on traditional media. If you're outlandish and you say wild things and you're loud and
provocative, right? So, everything would push us towards that. And yet, that's not good for our country.
[13:35:00]
And so, I need this lesson as much as anybody. Do I wish we had presidents that were trying to lower the temperature? Yes, 100 percent. But I don't
think, again, that this problem is going to be solved or that we can just blame it on political leaders.
Every time we post on Facebook or social media, every time we treat someone else as our enemy, instead of our fellow American, then we're also part of
the problem. And this is an attempt from me to look inside of me and to try to hold myself accountable as well.
ISAACSON: When you were running for governor at one point, you made an ad with your opponent. Tell me about that and why.
COX: Yes. So, this was in 2020. In Utah, we run on the presidential cycle. So, if you think back to 2020, what was happening during that time, of
course, COVID, George Floyd, a terrible summer tearing us apart as a country. And a friend of mine said, hey, isn't there something that you can
do? And I thought, well, what can I do? I'm just running for the governor of Utah. But that question really haunted me.
And I tell this story about, I just decided that I need to try to do something. So, I called my opponent, a Democrat. His name is Chris
Peterson, wonderful human being. We disagree on just about everything, but we both agree that we care about our country, care about our state, and
that we could disagree without hating each other.
And so, I made this crazy ask. I said, hey, how would you like to film an ad together in which we say just that, that we're -- I'm running for
governor. Chris says, I'm running for governor. I hope you vote for me. But we disagree on so many things, but we both agree that we can disagree
without hating each other, that our country is more important than either of us, that we care about the State of Utah, that we'll accept the results
of the election, whatever they are. And to his credit, he agreed to do it.
We filmed the ad, we put it out. It went viral, millions of hits within 24 hours. And it just showed me that again, this nation is hungry for
something better.
ISAACSON: You're right. The nation is hungry for this. Why isn't there a way, or is there a way that there could be a third movement, let me call
it, or something where the 70 percent of Americans who are hungry for something like this say, all right. we're going to figure out how to do a
different approach.
COX: Yes. I -- well, look, I think if ever there was a time, it might be ripe for it now. It's really hard. The way our system is set up, it's kind
of set up for this binary, right, two parties. But there are incentives within the parties that still exist for this. We do see it in elections
still. It happens. People get tired of one side and they're going to the other side.
Well, one of the problems I argue is that no party has lost bad enough in the past 10 years to learn any lessons. And so, we just keep thinking,
well, the country will get angry with whoever's in charge and we'll get our turn next time without actually ever doing anything different. But we do
see pockets of this across the country.
One of the things I wanted to prove is that this type of work, this type of effort, this type of depolarization work actually wouldn't hurt you running
for office and it could help you. So, we reached out to Stanford and they had a depolarization lab there where they study interventions and different
researchers who are working on this type of depolarization work. And we asked them to study -- well, actually they studied my ad before I -- we
even knew about it. And then we filmed some more ads with other governors, just like this, a Republican and a Democrat together.
And what they found was after surveying thousands of citizens who watched these videos, not only did it not hurt, either governor or either
politician, it actually helped them. They were -- the people who watched them were more favorable. So, we're trying to prove using research that
this is good politics.
So, even if you're -- if you don't want to do it just for the good of our country, if you're very Machiavellian and you just want to win the next
election, that this can actually help you win the next election. And I hope that that will inspire. We have many governors who have stepped up to do
this, over 20 now, who are working with Disagree Better, a nonprofit to help produce these ads, that more and more people will be inspired to say,
hey, I could run for office if I can do it this way. I don't want to tear someone down, but, but if we can run a respectful campaign with no negative
ads and win, that's something worth trying.
ISAACSON: Governor Spencer Cox. Thank you so much for joining us.
COX: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: And stay with CNN. We'll be right back after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
NEWTON: This week's 25th anniversary of 9/11 is being commemorated in Canada, where 24 citizens died in the attack. The anniversary comes at a
tense time for the U.S. and Canada, as retaliatory tariffs on American goods went into effect early this morning.
But in 2001, relations were so much warmer. After the United States closed its airspace, more than 6,000 airline passengers, many American, were
diverted to Gander, Newfoundland, in Canada's northeast. Now, a musical inspired at that time, called "Come From Away," celebrates Gander's warm
hospitality in a time of need. The show was a long-running hit on Broadway. More than 100 productions are still playing around the world.
In 2019, Christiane spoke with "Come From Away" creators David Hein and Irene Sankoff about the surprising global power of its message.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Did you ever have any idea that this story would resonate so incredibly, powerfully?
DAVID HEIN, CREATOR, "COME FROM AWAY": No. Well --
IRENE SANKOFF, CREATOR, "COME FROM AWAY": We hope so.
HEIN: Yes.
SANKOFF: I mean, it's a wonderful story and it's extraordinary what these people did, welcoming all these people in. But I think, at first, we were
mostly thinking the Canadian high schools will be forced to perform it.
AMANPOUR: Yes. School drama lessons?
SANKOFF: Yes. Exactly.
HEIN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Exactly.
SANKOFF: Exactly. With Canadian contents. So --
HEIN: I think a testament though to this story. I mean, right now, it's a story about people coming together despite their differences, about, you
know, in response to a tragedy, responding with kindness and it's, you know, certainly been a good story for us and it feels like it's an
important story to tell right now.
AMANPOUR: So, let's just go back to the beginning. Just give me the sort of nuts and bolts around the story. We know, all of us who were around
during 9/11, we know that the U.S. airspace was closed, that planes couldn't come in, they couldn't take off, there were planes already in the
air circling where were they to go, they went to?
SANKOFF: They went to Canada.
HEIN: Yes.
SANKOFF: Over 200 planes were landed across Canada and 38 of those went to a town called Gander, Newfoundland and nearly doubled the population in an
instance. And what was amazing is that not only did they accept the planes, not knowing who was on them, not knowing what to expect, but they let
people off of the planes, into their community buildings, stop school for the entire time that the people were there and said, you know what, that's
not good enough. You don't look comfortable. Why don't you come home with me and stay for dinner?
And then, you know what, don't go back and lie on the (INAUDIBLE), just stay overnight here and I we'll sleep in a guest room and wash your clothes
for you while you freshen up in our shower." Extraordinary. So, it's something you would not even think of doing on a regular basis.
AMANPOUR: And it went on for a while, it wasn't just an overnight trip.
HEIN: Yes, it was five days. And what's incredible is what happened in response to that kindness is, you know, the mayor of the town said that on
the first day they had 7,000 strangers of the tarmac, by the middle of the week they had 7,000 friends and by the end of the week, they said goodbye
to 7,000 family members.
And it's really incredible, you know, because we talk a lot about what the kindness of what these people did but was also quite brave, you know, in
the days right after 9/11, bringing people, strangers who they didn't know who were on those planes into their homes and the result of that is this
incredible community it was built. It was really wonderful.
AMANPOUR: And just to, again, emphasize, this was Canadian hospitality and Canadians coming to the rescue of their ally to the south and neighbor to
the south, the United States. So, when it opened on Broadway, Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau was there.
HEIN: Yes, he was. And he brought a number of delegates from around the world and, in fact, he brought the president's daughter as well.
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: Ivanka Trump?
HEIN: Ivanka Trump. And it was this -- it's incredible to have the prime minister of your country respond to a piece that you wrote to say, this is
exactly what we're saying about cross border collaboration and working together and partnership.
AMANPOUR: I mean, the story is that he cried, he was very, very moved.
SANKOFF: Yes, yes. That's what Madam Gregoire Trudeau told us, is that he was crying, yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, what inspired you take this story? I mean, how did you even focus on this story? I mean, as I say, it was sort of we knew it was
happening but none of us really knew the depth of what you've just described. What made you want to go and turn it into a musical?
HEIN: We were actually living in New York on 9/11. My cousin was in the Towers but fortunately, escaped. So, we had no interest in writing the 9/11
story. It was just -- what we wanted to do was tell a 9/12 story.
A friend us -- a friend of ours had introduced us to the story and we found out on the 10th anniversary there was going to be a commemoration ceremony
happening in Newfoundland, and all of these come from aways, the people who were stranded there, that's what they call them, were returning there to
reunite with the friends they had made 10 years later.
And so, we got a grant from the Canadian government and we got out there for about a month and people welcomed us into their homes, we saw the same
generosity that they did and they told us thousands of stories that. You know, we couldn't write them down fast enough and each one was better than
the last one.
And so, what it became was this 9/12 story, not a story about a tragedy but a story about how a small town responded to a tragedy.
AMANPOUR: And what was the process? I mean, the people who you met, the people who were there that come from aways, were they -- do they want to
have this story told like this, were they suspicious, were they, you know, forthcoming?
SANKOFF: One thing that was really clear was the come from aways wanted the world to know how grateful they were for having been taken in and being
so well taken care of, like taking care of -- some of them even said, you know, better than family, better than your own family would take care of
you, and they were very earnest about that.
And a lot of the press at the time wanted just five-second soundbites. And, you know, we were willing to talk for hours because we didn't really know
what we wanted. So, we just needed all the information we could have to sort of soak ourselves in it and be able to figure out what we can make out
of it.
AMANPOUR: And what were the nationalities? How did that breakdown? Obviously, there were a lot of Americans who were stranded, not able to go
back to their own country. But were there people from around the world also who are trying to visit America?
SANKOFF: Absolutely. They're also refugees. They are refugees from Moldova, they are refugees from Africa. One woman we spoke to said she had
25 people at her house from different parts of Africa and everyone was trying to figure out how to communicate, spinning globes and pointing where
they were. One person used a Bible to try to sort of like -- because the verses numbers are the same.
I mean, you just really such ingenuity and such compassion. It's -- people don't, I think, understand like, yes, it's very nice and Canadians are very
nice but this was really smart as well as really brave.
AMANPOUR: So, you two are married.
SANKOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You met in college.
SANKOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: In Canada.
HEIN: Yes.
SANKOFF: In Canada.
AMANPOUR: And you went about your lives, you got married, I think right after 9/11, right?
SANKOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You decided to -- that sort of spurge you to make that commitment and that decision.
SANKOFF: Yes.
HEIN: We did.
SANKOFF: Seize the day. Yes.
HEIN: We actually went down to City Hall about a month afterwards and my cousin who was in the Towers was our witness. And after we had this -- a
strange day of our wedding set in the shadow of that, afterwards, she took us on the path that she escaped on. And so, so much of the show comes from
what our experience was, which was both, you know, doing that in the days afterwards but also, the kindness that we saw, you know, and I think the
people saw around the world.
There was a real outpouring of people wanting to help and feeling helpless at the time, and that's what this story reminds us of.
AMANPOUR: And also, coincidentally, there is a married couple in this play, in the play, who become the protagonist. So, they weren't married at
the time, right? Describe this couple who then -- you know, who are very central to the play.
SANKOFF: Well, Nick and Diane. Diane is from Texas, Nick is from -- probably nearby here.
HEIN: Yes, yes.
SANKOFF: I would like to say, but my geography isn't so good for London. And they were on the same plane and somehow ended up in the same -- even
though they got separated several times, they ended up in the same shelter.
AMANPOUR: In Gander now?
SANKOFF: In -- just outside Gander and Gambo. And they were bunked down next to each other and just started talking and then found out that they
were spending more and more time together and then they had to leave. Afterwards, they had to leave and they both realized they didn't want to
leave each other. And, you know, the rest is, I guess, history.
AMANPOUR: And they got married?
SANKOFF: Yes, they did.
HEIN: They did.
SANKOFF: They did.
HEIN: And they honeymooned in Gambo, they went back to Newfoundland.
AMANPOUR: I mean, it is beautiful. I mean, you couldn't make --
SANKOFF: Yes.
HEIN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- that stuff up.
SANKOFF: No, no.
[13:50:00]
HEIN: What's wonderful about Nick and Diane, I mean, they've become wonderful friends. But I think for many years afterwards they didn't tell
their story. I think they felt guilty about it, you know, about something wonderful happening for them in response to this.
And so, what's great about doing this show is it's become a way for them to celebrate how they fell in love in the first place. And so, they get to
tell their story all the time and it's really wonderful to see all of that.
AMANPOUR: That is actually an amazing reaction, to feel sort of guilt -- it's survivor's guilt, isn't it?
SANKOFF: Yes.
HEIN: Yes, yes. Exactly.
SANKOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
SANKOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: But they seem to have got over that now and they're really into it. And they were at the performance, certainly here in London on its first
-- on its opening night.
HEIN: Yes.
SANKOFF: Yes, yes.
HEIN: Yes.
SANKOFF: I mean, we have such a wonderful support network in the real people who the show is about. They cheer us on Facebook and when they can,
they come out to every opening or every special event we do and we're so grateful for their support.
HEIN: Nick and Diane went to see the show at least over 60 times. Captain Beverley Bass who's represented on the show, she's seen that over 120
times. And what's wonderful is each time we have an opening it becomes another reunion like the 10th anniversary when we first went there and we
get to reconnect to all of them.
AMANPOUR: So, tell me about the power of theatre, and the power of the musical. What made you want to "Come From Away" into a musical, not just a
play?
SANKOFF: That you can't tell a story about Newfoundland without including the music. The music is in DNA of the people out there.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
SANKOFF: And every house you go to, they play one instrument or three. And it's basically how they get through the long winters, and the cold is
basically getting into each other's kitchens and having kitchen parties. And that's what happened when we were out there. I mean, it wasn't that
cold because it was September, and it was a gorgeous September. But we ended up in people's backyards with them playing instruments and trying to
teach us how to put the bower on and various other things.
HEIN: Yes, it's this incredible, authentic music. It actually comes from England Ireland, who a lot of immigrants came over there and landed in
Newfoundland. And the music is this life-affirming music that gets you up on your feet. It's fiddles and accordions, hand drums.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
HEIN: And it's the way they respond to hardship. In the dead of winter, they will all stay warm by telling stories and singing songs. And I think
that's what we want to do. We wanted to create this kitchen party because it's how they responded to this tragedy, with warmth and kindness and with
humor.
You know, one of the things that surprised us a lot is so many of the stories they told us were actually funny and made us laugh because it's how
they take care of you. They'll be telling a story where they'll see you about to well up, this horrible story. And the minute you start to cry,
they'll be like, no, no, no, no, here's a joke.
AMANPOUR: You live in New York.
SANKOFF: Right now, yes.
AMANPOUR: When you tell your neighbors that you're Canadian and living in New York, what do they say?
SANKOFF: They ask us if they can move in with us back in Canada because we still have a house there. And I'm always really quick to say our success
couldn't have happened without the things that Canada embraces, which is, you know, we both went to public high schools. I went to a public arts high
school. We both got grants to go to university and loans to go to university. The public health care system kept us going through. We had
subsidized daycare, getting grants to write the show.
I mean, we are, I mean, the poster children for, I guess what you would call maybe the Canadian dream of, you know, look, if we all just help each
other and help people when they need help, look what can happen.
AMANPOUR: Well, it's marvelous. Thank you so much. Irene Sankoff.
SANKOFF: Yes.
AMANPOUR: David Hein, thank you so much indeed.
HEIN: Our pleasure.
SANKOFF: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NEWTON: It's been such a delight to see that interview again and the hospitality. It is not incidental that it comes from Newfoundland. They
really have epic hospitality for anyone who goes there. And it was a moment in history. I was in Canada for 9/11. And for that moment, it was a
tragedy. And yet, many Canadians felt it so viscerally, right? And they fiercely wanted to defend their American friends. It was as if a family
member had been hurt.
Of course, Canadians went on to serve alongside Americans in Afghanistan. Tens of thousands of them, 158 were killed. And it is disquieting to see
this bond that is still there and still strong, but so frayed now by trade relations. And again, I've heard from Canadians and Americans say that 9/11
and the reaction to it is something many of them still treasure.
And as we have been talking about 9/11, of course, as we just heard, it was a tragedy of 9/11 and the shock that shook the entire world.
[13:55:00]
For many, including Scott Larsen, life did not look the same. Not ever again after that. He was only four years old when his dad, a New York City
firefighter, was tragically killed in the collapse of the World Trade Center towers.
And now, Larsen is following in his late father's footsteps. Like more than 50 others who lost their firefighting parents in that attack, he's joined
the New York City Fire Department. In fact, he's been assigned to the Woodside Firehouse, the same one where his dad worked. It's filled with
reminders of his father that serve as daily encouragements for Scott to turn to. When he's feeling that grief, he feels then pride. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT LARSEN, FDNY FIREFIGHTER: Every day I come in, I look at the plaque. It just makes me want to be a better person, not only at my job, but in
life in general, like just to have an upbeat attitude and not really let anybody take you down. Because, I mean, I've been through a lot already.
So, I'm not going to let someone bring me down.
So, I guess it's just a good -- you know, I recognize it every day. I come into work and I see his name and I see his picture in the kitchen and his
picture in the TV room. It just makes me always think, you know, just to have a better attitude.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: And that's it for now. I want to thank you for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
