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Amanpour
Interview with Americas Quarterly Editor-in-Chief Brian Winter; Interview with "We Shall Outlast Them" Author Hanna Notte; Interview with "The W: A History of the WNBA" Author Tamryn Spruill. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired October 05, 2026 - 13:00 ET
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[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
A surprise triumph for Brazil's far-right. As President Lula and Flavio Bolsonaro head for a runoff, expert Brian Winter breaks down where the
country could be going.
Then, weathering Western pressure as it wages war in Ukraine. Political scientist Hanna Notte explains how Russia has remade itself to fuel Putin's
war machine.
Plus, protests, riots, and schools set ablaze. Melissa Bell explains the nationwide demonstrations over education funding.
And also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAMRYN SPRUILL, AUTHOR, "THE W: A HISTORY OF THE WNBA": The Women's League had been so pushed into the margins that people didn't know the players,
and in this case, that the league even existed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- author Tamryn Spruill speaks to Michel Martin about the struggles that shaped women's basketball and her new book, "The W."
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Celebrations, commiseration, and uncertainty across Brazil, Latin America, and beyond. After a neck-and-neck race, far-right presidential candidate
Flavio Bolsonaro has pulled in a better-than-expected result in Brazil's presidential election. The son of imprisoned former President Jair
Bolsonaro, he took home more votes than incumbent left-wing President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva. Both men, though, fell short of an outright majority.
Flavio Bolsonaro is hailing the result as a vote of confidence in Brazil's future. President Lula, meantime, is calling it unexpected and vowing to
fight on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLAVIO BOLSONARO, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (through translator): I'm very happy about the real possibility that, three weeks from now,
Brazil will give a definitive answer that it wants a modern government. A government with fewer ministries. A government that will restore democracy.
LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (through translator): It is time for us to show the true picture of Brazil
today and the Brazil we want. So, starting tomorrow, we are beginning a new campaign. A campaign in which, with only two candidates, we will be able to
show the difference between the proposals that exist for Brazil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: A runoff is now scheduled for later this month, and Bolsonaro is seen as the firm favorite to win outright. If he does, it would not only
shift Brazil back to the right, but it could have huge consequences for the nation's democracy and relations with the U.S.
For more on all of this, let's bring in Brian Winter, editor-in-chief of America's Quarterly. Brian, welcome back to the program. So, when we spoke
last December, you described a potential generational shift to the right in Brazil. Does this result from over the weekend confirm that thesis, or is
this just a Lula-specific result?
BRIAN WINTER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, AMERICAS QUARTERLY: Bianna, it looks like Brazil is heading that way. Barring some unexpected upset, the next
president of Brazil will be Flavio Bolsonaro. And this is part of a right- wing shift that we're seeing, not just in Brazil, but all-over Latin America, where of the last 16 democratic elections that we've seen in the
region, 13 of them have been won by candidates on the center-right or right.
In a lot of cases like this one, there's also an anti-incumbent element to these votes. Voters in Brazil, it's very clear, were upset with the status
quo. They were dissatisfied with a leader in Lula who has this rich history, and he was running for a fourth term, but he's also 80 years old.
And some of that will sound familiar to the part of your audience that's in the United States, or that follows U.S. politics. The rejection of the
status quo, of the establishment, and the return of a family in the Bolsonaros that has an awful lot of parallels with the Trump family.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. So, a repudiation, perhaps, of Lula and the status quo. You heard him, in response to these results, call them unexpected. I want
to play sound for our viewers and for you of what he told Christiane Amanpour just last month when he was here in New York for the U.N. General
Assembly.
[13:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DA SILVA (through translator): Every election, I am concerned, Christiane, because we only know the results after the ballot box are open, but the
fact of the matter is that what is at stake today in Brazil is not a choice of people or parties against others. What is at stake today is a choice
that either we have democracy or we have barbarism, or we have policy to conserve nature or deforestation, a policy of social inclusion, or leave
the poor abandoned, or the strengthening of culture, or the end of culture. This is what is at stake now, and I have the awareness that I will win the
elections. I'm sure that I'm going to win the elections because Brazil needs democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, Flavio Bolsonaro outperformed the polls, the right won well beyond just the presidential race. What did pollsters, and perhaps Lula
himself, fail to recognize about what's happening in Brazil right now?
WINTER: Lots of dynamics are at work in this race, Bianna. This is a race that I have described as being one defined by apathetic polarization. A bit
of an academic term, if you will, but it's a country that is simultaneously very polarized, and where -- you know, when I was in Brazil earlier this
year, it was extremely hard to find anybody who was very excited about one candidate or the other. Ten years of a very polarized politics, and what
you sense from Brazilians is that people are kind of tired.
But, you know, there are lots of concerns, many of which Lula raised there, about what the return of the Bolsonaros might mean for Brazil's
institutions, what it might mean for the Amazon. But the weight of the evidence so far is that Brazilians handed Flavio Bolsonaro this
unexpectedly strong result yesterday because of pocketbook issues, because of a feeling that even though the Brazilian economy -- the headline numbers
are actually pretty good. The economy has been growing 3 percent a year for much of Lula's term. Unemployment is at historic lows. Inflation is
relatively low by Brazilian standards, at about 4 percent. But still, when you ask people in polls how they feel about their own economic situation,
they feel like things are getting worse.
And here again, we see some parallels with the United States, this talk of affordability that we have here. It's been so much a feature of the race in
Brazil that Brazilian media have actually been using the English word, affordability, to talk about the concerns of voters in this race. And that
seems to be, once again, the reason why the Bolsonaro family is now on the cusp of returning to power.
GOLODRYGA: So, affordability, the economy, despite what the numbers themselves may say, if that's not trickling down to how voters are feeling,
therein lies your problem, as you noted, similar to what the Republican Party and the Trump administration is facing here at home. Also, crime
continues to be a big factor. And you've said that organize and fear of organized crime was pulling working class voters away from Lula. How much
of his setback is based on that, specifically when it comes to female voters? I think we may have lost Brian's connection. Brian, can you hear
me?
OK, we're going to take --
WINTER: Yes, I can hear you just fine.
GOLODRYGA: OK. Sorry, we lost your video. You can keep going.
WINTER: Organized crime is another issue where the Brazilian right has been able to make inroads, where, you know, even though the homicide rates
are down substantially since 2017, crimes like extortion, armed robbery, cargo theft, and other kinds of crime have been a real problem under the
Lula government. Lula has also been perceived as somewhat weak, or at least not strong enough.
On organized crime, he said in an interview last year, he said, and this is a quote, he said, the real -- that he said, "Drug dealers are the victims
of drug users." And that fed a perception that he's just not as tuned in as the Bolsonaro family has been historically on this issue of organized
crime.
And this is just one final thought. This has been the story of the last two years in the rest of Latin America as well. Right-wing governments that
have been eking out these victories precisely because of concerns over organized crime.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, and Flavio Bolsonaro has campaigned on and suggested to promise to copy Bukele's tactics in El Salvador. So, that's what he's
campaigning on. But in actuality, experts say that may be difficult to deliver in Brazil. So, what can he actually do in terms of cracking down on
organized crime the way he says he'd like to mirror Bukele's handling of it in El Salvador?
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WINTER: That's a really important point, Bianna. We've seen several presidents who've been elected in the last two years in Latin America who
have vowed at least in some ways to copy Nayib Bukele's tactics. Remembering that in El Salvador, they have arrested 2 percent of the adult
population over the last 10 years, in some cases, at least, without due process, without a fair trial. That is not something, to be clear, that
Flavio Bolsonaro has proposed to copy exactly.
But he's talking generally about a tougher approach, tougher tactics, using the military more, building new secure prisons in order to house some of
these criminals, and increasing the population of incarcerated people more generally.
It's worth noting that other countries that have gone down this road, including Ecuador, Chile, Costa Rica, and others, they have not yet been
able to replicate the success that El Salvador has, in terms of reducing homicide rates. These organized crime groups, they're very powerful.
They've diversified into areas like illegal mining and human trafficking. And it's not just as simple as deciding that you're going to take them on.
GOLODRYGA: The Bolsonaro family and its comeback almost reads like a telenovela. You have Jair, who's a former president, very polarizing,
beloved by half the country, hated and vilified by half the country. He's under house arrest. His eldest son is within reach of the presidency, not
to mention a spitting image of his father. His son's wife and other sons are winning seats.
So, what explains the enduring power of this political family? Is it what they are campaigning on and promising, or is it sort of vindicating the
family name, specifically Jair's legacy?
WINTER: Bianna, you compared it to a telenovela. And I sometimes say it's a telenovela of U.S. politics, but on a two-year delay. You know, the
parallels with the Trump family are so striking. The United States had January 6th with the uprising in Congress. Brazil had January 8th, albeit
two years later. So, not even in the date was it particularly original. But that was when, you know, hordes of Bolsonaro supporters vandalized the
presidential palace, Congress, and the Supreme Court.
As far as the why of it, look, this is where Brazil and the United States, their paths do diverge a bit. There had really, since the return of
democracy in the 1980s, there had never been someone who had put together a conservative alliance in Brazilian politics. All the governments that
Brazil had prior to Jair Bolsonaro in 2018 were either center, center-left, or left.
And it turns out that this demand was present all along. You had, among other things, an evangelical Christian community in Brazil that has grown
from 7 percent of the population in the 1980s to some 30 percent today. It's also a country where agribusiness is sort of the main focus of the
economy now. Even the music in Brazil has changed. What used to be the country of samba and bossa nova is now the country of sertanejo, which is
kind of a Brazilian tropicalized form of country music in the United States.
And the Bolsonaros were really the first ones who were able to come along in 2018 and build this big umbrella where they legitimized right-wing
politics. And it turns out that at least some of that demand was there all along.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, the similarities are fascinating. So, what must Lula do differently now in these next three weeks if he stands a chance to win back
some of these voters who are now skeptical or have said that they're going to sit this one out?
WINTER: So, let's talk about the math here, because it looks really difficult for Lula at this stage. He lost the first round by two percentage
points to Flavio Bolsonaro. But the other candidates in the race summed up about eight percentage points, and all of those additional candidates are
right of center. So, it looks really tough for Lula. He would have to capture somewhere on the order of 60 percent to 70 percent of the vote that
went to these other candidates in the race. That's unlikely.
So, sitting here today, it really seems as if the only thing that could result in a Lula comeback and stand in the way of Flavio Bolsonaro coming
to the presidency starting next year would be another game-changing scandal. And it's not unthinkable. It could happen.
[13:15:00]
There's been chatter in Brasilia for months now that I've heard directly from high-ranking officials of -- you know, it's all speculation, but of
there being some additional revelations that could damage Flavio Bolsonaro related to either this Banco Master, this mid-sized bank scandal that has
dominated Brazilian politics this year, or something else. I don't like to talk about speculation like that. I was a reporter for 15 years. I was
trained not to. But it has been in the mouths of everybody in Brasilia.
And, you know, now, we'll see if in the final three weeks of the campaign, something else comes out. But it would have to be something truly major,
because at this stage, Flavio just looks like such a strong favorite.
GOLODRYGA: Well, you'll be following it closely, I know, these next three weeks in particular. Brian Winter, editor-in-chief of America's Quarterly,
thank you for joining the show.
And still to come, a look at how Putin's war on Ukraine is reshaping Russia itself, political scientist Hanna Notte joins me to discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Now, to Ukraine, where Russia is preparing what it is calling massive strikes against Kyiv and other regions in Ukraine. It is the latest
intimidation tactic from Moscow, as it seeks to grind down Ukraine's morale and take out vital civilian infrastructure ahead of winter.
But Russia too is feeling the pain of this grinding war of attrition. Ukraine has vowed to step up its strikes on Russian oil refineries in
response to Moscow's attacks. It's doubling down on a strategy that has already triggered widespread fuel shortages and sown discontent amongst
ordinary Russians.
In her new book, "We Shall Outlast Them," political scientist Hanna Notte explores how Russia has remade itself to support Putin's war and sidestep
pressure from the West. And Hanna joins me now from Washington. Hanna, welcome to the program. Congratulations on the book.
Let's start with the title itself, "We Shall Outlast Them." Those are words of former Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev back in 1956, speaking of
outlasting the West. He was proven wrong then. Why does Putin think he's right now?
HANNA NOTTE, AUTHOR, "WE SHALL OUTLAST THEM": Putin looks at the world today and still thinks that the glass is more half full than half empty,
that he can outlast the West in the systemic struggle over Ukraine. Just like Khrushchev, you mentioned it, thought that the Soviet Union could
outlast the West in a systemic struggle at the time. What we have seen in the last four and a half years is that Russia has remade itself on the
global stage in order to secure support for itself, for its economy, for its war machine.
I do want to note, Bianna, that this was not the original plan. I think when Putin ordered tanks into Ukraine in February 2022, he calculated that
this would be a short war, a quote-unquote special military operation, that the Ukrainian government would collapse, that Russia would create a new
situation in Ukraine, install a pro-Russian government, and the West would essentially have to swallow this new status quo.
Now, we know this is not what happened. The Ukrainian people have resisted heroically. The West totally severed its ties with Russia, instituted
sanctions. The Russian Federation is today the most sanctioned country in the world.
[13:20:00]
And in response, the Kremlin hustled to recalibrate its statecraft in two ways to secure support for itself in the non-Western world. And the book
tells the story of how this has unfolded in different areas of statecraft, economic statecraft, propaganda, and the war of narratives.
But in addition to charming the non-West, Russia has also tried to intimidate the West to pressure the West to make it stop supporting
Ukraine. And that is what we are currently seeing escalating and a campaign of hybrid warfare waged against Europe, because Europe in this fifth year
of war has become Russia's biggest problem.
GOLODRYGA: And a constant theme from the Kremlin and Vladimir Putin was that this war, the special military operation, all of that was being
conducted not just against Ukraine, but against the West that the West was antagonizing Russia and Russia in a sense was defending itself. And that's
how he sold this to the Russian public for so many years now, despite the ingenuity that we've seen on the battlefield from Ukraine and their drone
production, and the fact that they've been able to really inflict significant damage on the battlefield. And where we've seen tens of
thousands, hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers killed and the damage to the Russian refineries and energy sector.
The FT now is describing Russia's choking off Ukraine's ports and destroying the infrastructure in hopes of choking off Ukraine's economy,
that that seems to be their latest tactic right now. And it does appear to be working. July was the most dangerous month for shipping in the Black Sea
since February of 2022. That is according to Lloyd's list in August. What can Putin do strategically now to damage Ukraine economically in ways that
he hasn't been able to do militarily?
NOTTE: Yes, you outlined it pretty well. We're seeing an intensified Russian campaign against Ukraine going into the fall and winter escalating
even in comparison to previous years. So, we are already seeing stepped up strikes, not just during the night, but now also during the daytime against
Ukraine's energy infrastructure, against the water infrastructure, against agricultural exports through the Black Sea. Now, bridges in Kyiv, even the
Academy of Sciences was hit in recent days.
And, Bianna, the intent here is quite clear. I think the Russians are essentially trying to make Ukrainian cities unlivable over the fall and
winter in order to force the Ukrainians into painful concessions at the negotiating table, perhaps next spring. But there is a second part to the
Russian strategy, and that is the campaign against Europe.
You know, I wrote a whole book about Russia's efforts to secure support in the non-Western world from China, from Iran, from North Korea, selling more
oil to India. And Russian successes here have been very real. But we can also say four and a half years into the war that collectively this non-
Western support for the Russian economy and defense enterprise has not enabled Russia to actually win the war.
And so, the biggest problem that Putin has as he looks into the upcoming period is Europe, because Europe still supports Ukraine. The Europeans have
in many ways stepped in to offset some of the decline in U.S. support during the second Trump administration. A country like Germany, where I am
based, is now in absolute numbers the biggest provider of military support to Ukraine. And Russia is looking desperately for solutions to this
problem. They want the Europeans to stop supporting Ukraine.
Now, they tried to erode public support in Europe for this support for Ukraine over the last four and a half years with this so-called hybrid
campaign, meaning political, psychological, economic measures. But it has only gotten them so far. And what we are now seeing is an intensification
of this campaign, namely directly targeting with explosive drones, for instance, military-related infrastructure in Europe, factories are being
named by the Russian side and framed as a legitimate target. This is the problem that Russia will be focusing on over the upcoming period. Whether
it will be enough to get the Ukrainians to surrender is a whole different question.
GOLODRYGA: And you're right to point out the long-term support, both in terms of language and military and financial support that Europe in
particular has continued to promise Ukraine. The United States continues to provide intelligence.
[13:25:00]
But Ukrainian officials are really blaming the lack of Western air defenses, specifically Patriot missiles, from the United States for the
continued strikes on its infrastructure. They just can't maintain with what they have at this point. Is this what Putin is hoping to see, that perhaps
longer-term money is going to be an issue for both him and Ukraine, but in the short-term, as much damage as he wants can be inflicted upon Ukraine
without these air defense systems?
NOTTE: You're exactly right. And incidentally, the shortage of Patriot interceptors that you just pointed to is one of the positive side effects
for Russia from the ongoing U.S. war with Iran. I think when the war broke out in late February, Bianna, the Russians were quite rattled. They didn't
like their strategic partner, Iran, being attacked by the United States and Israel. There was also some concern that the Iranian regime would collapse.
I think Russia also did not like the fact that the Trump administration was suddenly no longer focused on Ukraine and Russia, but was quite distracted
by events in the Middle East, considering that the Russians had hoped that the Trump administration would force Ukraine into painful concessions at
the negotiating table.
But then, of course, the Iran war has had some upsides for the Russians, an elevated oil price, which came at an important time when Russia is facing a
budget deficit, and then the depletion of Patriot interceptors in the Persian Gulf, which is now being felt very painfully by Ukraine. So, yes,
you're completely right to say that Putin will opportunistically try to exploit these gaps.
And when it comes to running out of money over the medium to long-term, I also think that he still believes that the Europeans will eventually falter
in their support for Ukraine. He sees the rise of populist parties across Europe, parties that question the support for Ukraine that want a different
kind of relationship with Russia, and he's just willing to, you know, to outlast the other side, and thinks that politically he can have the longer
stamina than the other side.
GOLODRYGA: I want to ask you about reports in the New York Times over the weekend about Putin asking Trump's envoy, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner,
to advance a deal of Lukoil's overseas assets as part of their diplomacy. Does the idea of business opportunities at this point persuade Putin to end
a war which, as you've noted at the onset, has not gone the way he'd intended? Does he, say, face with these types of deals, given the
vulnerability that Russia faces having to rely increasingly on countries like China?
NOTTE: I see absolutely no indication that business deals, including with the United States, will make Putin shift his calculus on the war against
Ukraine. I mean, this business -- these types of business deals have been offered before, they've been discussed before. If the Russians can go for
this, they absolutely will do, because they want to normalize a relationship with the United States independent of the Ukrainian dossier.
That is what they have been pursuing since the beginning of 2025, even though they haven't seen many material benefits from this yet.
So, if they can pursue this, they absolutely will, but it doesn't mean that Putin will budge in terms of his core demands as far as Ukraine is
concerned.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, I tend to agree with you on that point as well. We've come a long way from Biden saying no future of Ukraine will be discussed without
Ukraine at the table, and now we're hearing reports of potential deals to end the war that involve strictly the United States and Russia and some
other allies in the Middle East, according to this latest report.
You describe how Russia has adapted to sanctions, being one of the most sanctioned countries in the world. How specifically?
NOTTE: So, there is the export side of things and the import side of things. Coming to exports, Russia has assembled what is called a shadow
fleet of tankers in order to ship its crude oil to willing buyers in Asia, for example, to India, in circumvention of a price cap that the G7
instituted on Russian oil in late 2022. So, poorly insured, poorly maintained tankers, which are often re-registered by shell companies in the
UAE. So, it's kind of playing a game of whack-a-mole in order to rein in that activity. This is on the export side, very important.
On the import side, Russia has managed to pretty much import any goods it has wanted, consumer goods for the Russian population, but also these so-
called dual-use goods, which have a civilian and a military application, for example, through third countries in the South Caucasus or in Central
Asia.
[13:30:00]
And again, it has been very difficult for Western countries to choke off that kind of economic activity because you need a huge bureaucratic
apparatus in order to ensure compliance by companies with this kind of activity. And again, Russia has also directly traded with Iran and North
Korea and China, and it has been very difficult through sanctions or export controls to undermine that kind of activity as well.
GOLODRYGA: It is a well-reported book. I know you reported from more than a dozen countries in doing the research for this book. It comes as concerns
of Putin's quest now extend beyond just Ukraine and into neighboring countries. Estonia is moving troops permanently closer to its border with
Russia. There are real consequences over this war that's now into its fifth year. It's a fascinating book. Thank you so much, Hanna, for joining us.
Really appreciate it.
NOTTE: Thank you very much for having me. Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: We turn now to France, where a wave of student protest is shutting down hundreds of schools across the country. Protesters are angry
over teacher shortages, crowded classrooms and buildings in disrepair. Thousands have been arrested since the demonstrations began last month.
Students say conditions in some schools are simply unacceptable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FADILA, FRENCH HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT (through translator): There are no windows. In the prefab toilets, there's no water. There are cockroaches and
rats everywhere in the school. The school canteen is too expensive. There's no toilet paper in the toilets, and we need to go and ask school
supervisors to get some. The buildings are dilapidated. In the winter, in the prefab classrooms, it's too cold. It's negative five degrees Celsius.
And in the summer, it's 40 degrees Celsius. We can't work in those conditions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: But the police response has also come under scrutiny as protesters accuse officers of excessive force. And today, a 15-year-old
reportedly lost his hand after picking up a police stun grenade. An investigation is now underway.
Correspondent Melissa Bell joins us from Paris with more. So, Melissa, we've been covering these protests now into their second week. How bad is
the situation, and why has it reached such a boiling point now?
MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's just gotten worse, really. Ever since the 21st of September, that initial
protest, which was at a lycee to the southeast of Paris that was demanding that students join the teachers to demand more staff, that was fixed. More
staff were sent.
But by then, the match had really been lit. And what you saw was this movement spread, and its violence, I think, has surprised many. It is now
more than 1,000 schools that are impacted. Another 400 to 500 were closed just today, Bianna. And what is behind it is this real anger from students
that goes back for years, this kind of video suggesting what they don't have in their classes, the lack of a desk, lack of a chair, a teacher not
turning up and being replaced, go back for years. So, these are longstanding grievances that they have that they're now expressing with a
great deal of violence.
But as you say, a lot of the government response has really focused on the presence of the far-left at some of these barricades and the question of
how the police respond. There have been so many arrests. It is 5,000 people who have now been taken into custody as a result of this movement. 85
percent of them are minors, and most of them have no criminal record, which, of course, then leads to the question of how the criminal justice
system deals with them.
GOLODRYGA: So, where does this movement go from here? And as you've just laid out, is there an organized movement, or is this just something that's
organically picking up more and more attention and protests?
BELL: It had been pretty organic, school by school, really fueled by social media and what students saw was happening elsewhere, and that's
really what helped it spread like wildfire. There was this turning point last Thursday, Bianna, when the government spoke of what was happening,
described it no longer as a student protest and more like urban violence, vowing really to crack down and bring things under control.
With the other hand, they've also tried to speak to students. So, there was this meeting on Friday when the education minister received some of those
student leaders, because now this is also being led by some of those student unions who have now been joined by teacher unions. They walked out
of the meeting very dissatisfied with what they've heard.
Essentially, the government is sort of between a rock and a hard place. It needs this movement to stop, but it is also trying to push through its 2027
budget, which seeks to rein in spending, and essentially, they feel they can't be spending any more money.
The next step is this big protest that we expect tomorrow, marches across France, where you'll see not just the students at their barricades and then
at the marches, but also student unions -- sorry, teacher unions, and we expect other public sector workers.
[13:35:00]
Generally, we saw a big march last week. They'll likely participate and some of those unions are now describing the start of what they describe as
a black week.
GOLODRYGA: And this all happens as you have a lame duck president elections next week. How are all the parties reacting to this and who
stands to benefit most at this point, at least?
BELL: That's right. The timing of this really couldn't be worse for the government, not just because of that 2027 budget I mentioned, but also
because of that presidential race next spring. It was already looking like a very vicious fight between the far-right and the far-left with the
centrally floundering in a number of polls. This has added fuel to that and in a way kicked off unofficially that start of that presidential race.
The far-left party, LFE, has been present at some of those barricades. That's been seized upon by the government as a sign that they're
instrumentalizing the student anger. They, for their part, defend their right to be there and defend the students' right to protest. So, it's
become politicized and this, of course, has only added further fuel to the fire.
So, I think you can expect another very angry week with students determined above the din of all that, both what they describe as the police repression
and the politicization of their movement as the sort of din that they didn't need. What they want are their grievances to be heard, which they
say, Bianna, are legitimate. They're not asking for much. They say the bare minimum to be able to allow them to study, which is decent classes,
teachers that are replaced or present, and enough resources to allow them to learn.
One of the interesting things about this is there was a spike in fertility and in births in France in 2010. These are the students now in high school
at a time when the government's been cutting education spending. So, you see in 2008, there were -- compared to 2008, I'm sorry, there are 250,000
extra high school students and much fewer teachers and fewer resources. And that really is what's part of the problem.
GOLODRYGA: And, Melissa, how is the far-right responding? Is this an argument for their sort of law and justice and order campaign?
BELL: I think probably it is. We've even had one of President Trump's son tweeting about this, that this was a sign of immigration out of control, of
chaos in the streets of France. So, it's really been seized upon by both sides, but probably much more by the far-left, simply because students are
their natural constituents.
And also, because from the government's point of view, when they can't spend any money on them, they see this as an easy win for them. The anger
on the streets also fuels dissatisfaction with the government's performance. And by the way, those education cuts were carried out during
President Macron's two terms in office.
So, it's an obvious issue for them. And they intend, at their presence at the barricades and in their defense of the students, to use this as much as
they can, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Melissa Bell in Paris, you've been covering it for us. You will continue doing that. Thank you.
And still to come, women's basketball is booming, but what's behind its surging popularity? Author Tamryn Spruill unpacks the WNBA's checkered
history and how it hit the big time after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Now, packed out arenas, a billion-dollar team and viral on court rivalries, women's basketball is at an all-time high. But how did it
get there? Author Tamryn Spruill joins Michel Martin to unpack the WNBA's history of sexism, racism and underfunding and what the future now holds
for the growing game.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Bianna. Tamryn Spruill, thank you so much for joining us.
TAMRYN SPRUILL, AUTHOR, "THE W: A HISTORY OF THE WNBA": It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me here.
MARTIN: You've written this fascinating history of "The W," as the WNBA is called. They're in the middle of their playoffs. I mean, record attendance,
new contract, all the things. But you obviously have been working on this for a while. What gave you the idea?
SPRUILL: Just less than 10 years ago, this wasn't the case. I was editor in chief at Swish Appeal and I was first teaching in academia and teaching
college and decided to --
MARTIN: Which appeal being what?
SPRUILL: Women's basketball site. And I was the first woman. So, therefore, the first black woman to run a women's basketball site. And that
was 2018. And in that year, I was speaking to my then eight-year-old niece and asking her, you know, do you even know of any women's basketball
players? And her answer was no. She didn't know Asia Wilson, even though she's living in South Carolina. But she could name LeBron James and Stephen
Curry. And that really galled me that the women, the women's league had been so pushed into the margins that people didn't know the players. And in
this case, that the league even existed.
MARTIN: Asia Wilson, having gone to the University of South Carolina, you know, powerhouse women's basketball program. You know, the coach, Dawn
Staley, you know, Olympic gold medal winning coach.
So, the WNBA tipped off in 1997 with the slogan We Got Next. Talk about those early years, if you would. I'm in Washington, D.C., and it was my
recollection was that a lot of fan support from the beginning. But that wasn't the case everywhere.
SPRUILL: That's a great point. People felt like in our culture that something major had shifted. You had like Tipper Gore at the first and in
1999 at the first All-Star Game. And the soccer team that won the World Cup that year, Mia Hamm and others were there to cheer these women on. Whitney
Houston singing the national anthem. So, there was widespread embrace.
But from the sports world and sports columnists, especially, it was a lot of degrading, you know, kind of ruling them out before even game one. And
it's not going to be a slam dunk because women don't dunk the basketball as if that is basketball. And we see today where it's OK, dunking was a thing.
And now, it's the three-point shot. And but still, that's not the full game.
So, a lot of people were -- sports columnists mainly were pretty derogatory towards the league and its players. And the commentary is very sexist. And
then referring to some players as, oh, they look like these are mugshot pictures and just, you know, racist undertones. And people felt OK to say
this, you know, it's like it's their job to be a columnist for these papers. And this is what they were putting out.
And on the court, the sport, you know, there was room to grow. The three- point shot wasn't what it is now. The first game in the first couple of seasons were pretty sloppy. And but over time, the game has evolved and the
players coming in are much more prepared. You mentioned Dawn Staley and we have other former players now teaching in collegiate programs. So, these
players now are getting out of college and are really ready to play at the pro level.
MARTIN: There were some really great players just from the beginning. Would you talk a little bit about them?
SPRUILL: Absolutely. My goodness. Of course, the ones who come to mind that kind of shocked everybody is the Comets, because you have Cynthia
Cooper, who had been playing professionally in Italy for almost 10 years at that point. She's a mid-30s rookie. And I don't think anybody expected that
a 30 something Cynthia Cooper was going to be as dominant as she was. Winning four straight titles. And I believe she was finals MVP with each of
those wins.
And of course, you have Sheryl Swoops and Tina Thompson with her and Rebecca Lobo and Vicky Johnson and Teresa Weatherspoon in New York. And of
course, the league originally really wanted an East Coast, West Coast rivalry. They wanted New York, L.A., and that didn't manifest because the
Comets disrupted everybody's plans.
MARTIN: There's just so many interesting structural things that you point out in the book that that I'm not sure a lot of people think about.
[13:45:00]
For example, there are a lot of gay women in the league, and it seems as though there was not a rush to promote them in the way that. They might
that they might have been promoted had they been straight. When did that change or has it changed?
SPRUILL: It's changing. I don't think I would consider it changed until there's somebody like Olivia Miles who just won rookie of the year is
promoted as the face of the league. The face that you see on the viral commercials when you turn on WNBA League Pass and the league even struggled
to put Asia Wilson in that position. Even though she's straight and in a relationship with an NBA player, she's still a very tall black woman.
And the league and marketers have not. Again, it goes down to value, not have not been able to see the beauty and the marketability in these women
and the women themselves. Thanks to social media and their own platforms and getting better agents who are able to put them forth in and in
commercials and other spaces.
Then people kind of catch on. Oh, you know, it is marketable to have two professional basketball players in a secret commercial. Paige Bueckers and
Asia Wilson. Who better to advertise deodorant than professional athletes? And these are things that have been missing that have not allowed these
women to be, you know, cultural mainstream.
MARTIN: But let's just talk about Caitlin Clark for a minute, because this has become like a huge thing this season for lots of reasons. I mean, she's
a great player. She's consistent. And making those three-point shots from half court, it's super exciting.
SPRUILL: Oh, yes.
MARTIN: Right? On the other hand, she seems to have been in the minds of some sort of pitted against Angel Reese, who is black, who is from
Baltimore. And the two of them seem to have sort of been cast as these as kind of hero and villain. You know, neither of them asked for this. In
fact, Caitlin Clark has said many times, I just want to play basketball. I do not want to participate in this discourse. And Angel Reese is similarly.
She says, I'm here to play. I'm here to win. What's the problem? So, who is it or how is it that this is being sort of placed on them?
SPRUILL: It really does start with media and sports writers and who's in those newsrooms and who's not and what perspectives are being pushed
forward. In working on this book and doing research, I found a study where the 2020 season, when Sabrina Ionescu came into the league, the number of
mentions of her name versus people who were winning had awards, what have you, was just exponentially higher.
And so, when you have two great players coming in and only one is getting the shine, then the fans of the other are, you know, kind of take issue
with it. And of course, online, there's the discourse. But media bias not only impacted individual athletes, but degraded the entire league by not
just showcasing the storylines that are developing from the court and showcasing the players who were doing the amazing things and letting that
determine the narrative rather than having it imposed.
And because of what Caitlin Clark looks like as a white woman, who people can relate to, we have the great white hope where people want to see a
white athlete succeed in sports that are dominated by black people. And I feel like a lot of people put that pressure on to her. And that's not going
to allow her to just play.
And coming into a league like this, I feel like the newer players need to understand what these women have been through, especially the ones who've
been in the league a long time, and have respect for that position and even want to know what their experiences are, because it is loaded.
MARTIN: So, talk about taking a stand. The 2020 season stands out. Because after the killings of Breonna Taylor and George Floyd, the Atlanta Dream
players publicly opposed their own co-owner, then senator, United States Senator Kelly Loeffler, after she criticized the league's support for Black
Lives Matter. So, what is it about that episode that stands out?
SPRUILL: Well, first of all, the success of their activism was very much a result of the moment when society was at another reckoning point over race
and police violence. I think it was Sue Bird who made the suggestion that we can help force her out by campaigning for her rival in the Senate race.
So, she was up for re-election.
[13:50:00]
And the players like Elizabeth Williams, who was a big part of the players union, she wanted to sit down with Raphael Warnock and to see if his values
aligned with theirs before they're going to throw their support. And he met with them, and the attention they gave his campaign just transformed his
campaign. It just shows the power that this league has to force progress when people really work together. But we can see how now we have a backlash
to that. And I feel like in the 30th season, a lot of the storylines that are coming up are resulting specifically from that power that was exerted.
And then now you're visible, we're going to attack you, you know.
MARTIN: One of the other things that's happened this season is that there seems to be this debate about whether trans women should or should not play
in the WNBA. To my knowledge, there are not any trans women or self- identified trans women currently in the WNBA. But the fact is, this is a thing that has emerged. What do you think it's about?
SPRUILL: I think it's about attacking a league that has been socially progressive, and now includes players who maybe don't have those same views
and values. Sophie Cunningham of Indiana Fever, who kind of said something about wanting to protect the locker rooms from biological males, which is a
very dog whistle for anti-trans beliefs. And it's not any current issue that I know of on any team of any player.
MARTIN: Was she talking about in the WNBA, in the W, the professional league? Or was she making a general statement about girls' sports at the
lower levels?
SPRUILL: All of sports and at the lower levels. And it's -- you know, there's a movement banning trans kids from playing on various teams. It's
happening all over the country. And it's really, her statement was kind of aligned with that movement and what those values and agendas are. And, you
know, it's kind of hijacking a beautiful season, 30th celebratory season, to interject these issues that are not even relevant right now.
There's been one trans player in the league, Layshia Clarendon, who came out first as non-binary and then trans and towards the end of their career,
had underwent surgery and is living a great life and doing activism to this day. But it hasn't even been a topic in the league that I am aware of.
But this is the first time there's been a player who's outspoken about issues kind of on the opposite side of, for example, where the league was
in 2020, which is all about equality and justice. So, these are the kinds of internal challenges I feel the league needs to work out.
MARTIN: So, before I let you go, where do you think this goes next? The current Commissioner Cathy Engelbert is retiring at the end of this season.
As we pointed out, there's just record attendance and viewership, rapid expansion, rising franchise values, the Golden State Valkyries, the first
billion-dollar team, women's team. OK, so that's a wow. Where do you think it goes next?
SPRUILL: I feel like the players need to have a common goal that they're going to galvanize around. So, the league was able to survive because
people were just like, we need to keep the league here. We need to grow it. We'll do whatever we can in our communities and to build this thing up.
Now, that there's so much money involved, and players are kind of coming in with a kind of privilege because they're getting much more airtime in
college and maybe don't know about the history. So, many of the players now, the stars were born when the league started. Sabrina Ionesco, Arike
Ogunbowale, '96, '97, they were babies.
And so, I feel that -- especially around these divisive issues that are kind of being imposed on the league, the union and the players need to work
with a new commissioner to kind of have a hard stance on preserving what it defines as the culture of the WNBA. And making sure that that message is in
the world and everything that it does to hopefully tamp down some of these negative storylines that are creeping up the season.
MARTIN: Tamryn Spruill, thank you so much for talking with me.
SPRUILL: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And finally, a discovery that transformed neuroscience. It turns out the nerve cells in brain can be switched on and off with light.
It's called optogenetics. And it's earned scientists Karl Deisseroth, Peter Hagermann and Georg Nagel this year's Nobel Prize for Physiology of
Medicine.
[13:55:00]
The technique was first tested on rats and eventually gave researchers the ability to control the movement of their whiskers. And since then, it's led
to major breakthroughs from the understanding how the brain governs things like pain and social behaviors to helping the visually impaired regain
partial sight. Congratulations to all of them.
All right. That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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END
